Saiph
Saiph
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@AnxiousGummy said:
For me it's Wesker. His Terror Radius and chase music are some of the best in the game. I also enjoy looping him because he's a strong killer but still counterable enough that he's not OP. I also really love the slam and throw animations lol it's so funny to me when he yeets you and you just go flying haha what about you all?
Personally I hate facing Wesker just due to how badly he's affected by ping, like you think you are behind a wall but you still get hit by his power etc. I wouldn't mind this killer otherwise. The worst part is I have 20 ms of ping myself, but it doesn't matter because the Weskers I face always have 100+ ms for some reason.
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@sinkra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668839#Comment_3668839
Any recent streaks after all the survivor nerfs?
Albyaround attempted a soloQ survivor streak ~6 months ago on his stream. He tried for a full week then gave up. Not only did he fail to achieve more than 5-6 wins in a row, but the last day was so bad that he couldn't even win a single game anymore, his teammates kept suiciding on hook and every single killer was slugging to deny him hatch. The games were surreal. He ended up being genuinely triggered, shut off the stream, then afterwards deleted the VOD and said he would never attempt an escape streak again. I've never seen Alby get that angry.
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Survivors tbagging during moris is a fun little interaction. It blows my mind that you can even remotely think that's a problem
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3667360#Comment_3667360
That has less to do with balancing, and more to do with MMR. I am in favor of them creating a ranked mode that has these hardcore things in place that shoot for that "50% win rate for both sides" and having a more casual mode that is meant for people to chill. I would personally make it so that ranked mode is a forced SWF match, and the casual one is solo queue only (maybe a single duo is allowed) to reflect that.
MMR is bad but incompetent balancing is most of the reason why we're there. There were so many unfriendly changes for casual players in the past 2 years (eg. Self-care nerf), which competitive players did not mind but have resulted in a lot of low-MMR players leaving. And as a result, matches get sweatier for both sides. This is what a lot of players don't realize when they suggest a terrible balance change for their side, it might actually make the game more difficult for them too, because in long-term they will face better players.
This specific vault setup is ridiculous, but imo it's not what BHVR should focus on: it's a difficult problem to fix, they have already screwed up so many maps, and it's not that impactful (it rarely happens except on some specific maps, you rarely find players who can exploit it, and you can always switch to a different killer).
That said I agree with your solution to split the queues. Not sure about the exact details but I think at least splitting the queues between casual/competitive would fix a lot of problems.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3667326#Comment_3667326
We shouldn't make balance decisions around average level players, if we do, then that means that nurse needs massive buffs.
Do you think we should balance around average players or the top level?
I post this video frequently, but its definitely the highest level players. It makes sense. Here is a youtube video that describes exactly what i'm talking about, they are talking about team fortress, but the point still is extremely relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw&t=205s
In our case, we are talking about this OP structure right? So, if they made it so such a structure/setup never spawned (I.E. nerfed it) does it hurt low level survivors? No, because low level survivors aren't abusing this type of thing to begin with, it won't impact them even a little bit. But it will make a big difference in high level play.
We see the results of BHVR balancing for high-level players -> player count at an all time low, casuals are dropping the game, and imo the game has become unfun on BOTH sides because you're constantly facing hardcore players.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3667309#Comment_3667309
Would love to see it, but i'd guess that every match was nurse/blight/spirit etc. top tier killers. Which is not what i'm talking about when i discuss these things. I'm talking about the OTHER 30+ killers that aren't viable at that level.
Also, a single tournament does not a data set make. You would need to look at thousands of matches at this level to get any relevant data.
Yes, against the top 0.01% best players in the world, Legion is not viable, but you aren't facing these players at all, otherwise you could have at least recorded a clip where you don't 4k at 4 gens. Or even better, record a clip of YOU playing survivor and looping Legion for 5 gens.
And yes I know you can sometimes find great loopers in pub that will make this kind of setup a nightmare, that can occasionally happen, but this is what you sign up for when you play Legion and you know it. 80% of players won't be able to exploit this setup properly and if you want to ignore strong loops, you always have the option to play Nurse. Meanwhile, survivors playing against Nurse don't have any option.
Link to the No Limit tournament: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8Z8lP_gBJE
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3667286#Comment_3667286
Incorrect.
I play both sides, so that argument is invalid. There's a reason tournaments have heavy restrictions on survivors, because at the highest level killers simply are not strong enough to deal with them when they bring their best.
Otz and Hens hosted a tournament with no restrictions for both sides, and killers still had 60% killrate on average. So no, you're wrong again.
I give you that killers in this tournament weren't playing Legion, but they were facing tournament 4-man SWFs with 4 syringes every game, and you aren't facing that. At least, based on this video.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3666869#Comment_3666869
To be fair. It feels like nobody actually read the OP just the title and video.
The point of the post was to highlight the structure, and they specifically stated the team they were against was bad but high level survivors would've made it too strong.
I still disagree with them, but the responses have the wrong energy imo.
According to this forum, all survivors are bad. When BHVR massively buffed killer several times and revealed that the killrate was 60%, it was still because the whole survivor playerbase was bad, not because of the buffs. When Otz achieved a 30+ winstreak with every killer and random perks, it was because he must have secretly thrown games off-stream to lower his MMR and play against bad survivors. I've even argued with somebody on this forum who claimed Dan (former Team Eternal's captain) - is a bad survivor, after someone else shared a clip where he got mindgamed.
OP thinks survivors are superhumans with perfect reflexes, perfect awareness, perfect information, they know where the killer is at all times, what every teammate does, where every pallet and vault is located, they have practiced every loop in the game several times before, otherwise they are bad.
I'm pretty sure OP would consider anybody who doesn't run this tile for 5 gens to be a bad player, even though he wouldn't be able to run it perfectly as survivor either.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3666116#Comment_3666116
My point was that just because people on the forums cry about a perk being bad, doesn’t make it true. Good players can bring out the full potential of a perk like they did in the video.
If it was a garbage perk as you put it, the player using this perk wouldn’t have used it long enough to figure out how to exploit it like this. They must have thought the perk had value to keep it equipped and experiment with it up until they found out it can force an infinite.
Every time a new perk comes out, content creators publish all kinds of "OP" techs and exploits with it, that's just clickbait for views.
Then everybody forgets about the perk because it's not good.
That super secret "infinite window tech" is already known, in fact it was used as clickbait title waaaaayyyyy before Champion of Light existed. Watch the intro of these 2022 videos, it's literally the same but with Fixated instead of Champion of Light:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAa9EGHyE2M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YJYk1g0wyc -
I have to admire how every single time there is a "new OP survivor tech" yet still the video ends up with that survivor dying.
So the survivor had to equip Champion of light AND fixated AND hope AND a flashlight just to do this tech AND he still died against a Blight who doesn't know what he's doing. Wow that sounds OP.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660007#Comment_3660007
You said one kill gives up to 20 MMR which isnt correct. 3-4 kills gives up to 20 MMR. We don’t know how much 1 kill is worth.
Ok fair, but how exactly does it matter to this conversation that you gain 5, 20, or 42000 MMR per kill? The point is that the max possible MMR gain is the same for both sides.
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There are a unusually high amount of toxic people who play this game, maybe more than 50% of the playerbase. The "simple" mindset to have is to disregard these people, and play for the other 50%.
Might sound hard at first when you get teabagged game after game but think of it this way:
If you treat survivors respectfully, most of the time they won't treat you the same in return and you'll have a bad match, but occasionally, you'll find survivors who also treat you respectfully, and a nice interaction will come up from it. However, if you treat all survivors disrespectfully, then you don't have a chance of this interaction to come at all.
If you can't stand survivors being toxic eg. tbagging etc, then I'd advise you not play killer at all for your own mental health, it's not worth it. Interactions with other players is the only reason to play this game, so if you are more disproportionally affected by the negative behaviors than the positive, then this game won't feel like a game for you but more like constant fighting with random people.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659778#Comment_3659778
We don't know how many MMR points every kill or escape is worth. Telling me that players can gain or lose up to Z MMR per game, doesn't help at all with telling us what percentage of Z each player is gaining or losing.
And telling me it's "way too convoluted" doesn't work. There are competitive games out there, where we get to see our MMR, and we get to see how many MMR points we gain or lose every game...... and we can clearly see we aren't gaining or losing the same amount of MMR points each game. Some games scale the MMR gain/loss points depending on how higher or lower the other players' MMR scores compared to you. And I think BHVR directly told us that DBD's MMR cares how different a player's MMR is compared to their opponents, which isn't really convoluted at all because that's how the chess ELO (chess' version of MMR) formula works.
Some games have a second "MMR" score, that tells the game "what it feels" the player should be at, and it will adjust MMR gains and losses to make it easier to reach that second "MMR" score. For example, if a player is at 1,500 MMR, and has a second "MMR" score of 1,700, then it will reduce the number of MMR points that player loses, because the player is going in "the wrong direction" in comparison to their second "MMR" score. This also means that if the player is having a bad day, and has a loss streak, their MMR score might not go down very much. It also means that if a player somehow throws a bunch of games on purpose to lower their MMR (and somehow doesn't get caught or punished), their MMR score won't go down as much.
In DBD, we also don't even know how many points the last survivor is worth. If a killer slugs for a 4k, do they actually get a lot more MMR points, than a killer that just takes a 3k and doesn't care if the 4th survivor gets hatch? If there are generators left that need to be repaired, and the killer closes hatch, and then the 4th survivor escapes through the gate, is that even worth any MMR points, or does DBD consider that as functionally being a hatch escape because the survivor team didn't repair all the generators?
The "convoluted" part of your system is NOT that you gain different points based on your opponent's MMR. That part is obviously normal, it's how MMR works.
The convoluted part is that you want to intentionally match people with different MMRs against each other, in order to achieve a 60% killrate through unbalanced matchmaking. That theory is already convoluted, but on top of this, the problem is, as I said, that you have a problem with hatch. If all the devs cared about was the killrate, then a hatch escape should be worth the same as a door escape. But we know that hatch is worth 0, so we know your system is not what is in the game. Just try it, choose an example value for Z and you'll see it doesn't work. What if the survivors escape through hatch 10% of the time? What if they escape 50% of the time? Your Z value wil be different for both cases, so you'd have to know and track the whole playerbase's hatch escape rate to constantly adjust Z.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659160#Comment_3659160
That's not exactly how MMR works.
20 MMR is the MAXIMUM amount of MMR each player can gain or lose in the trial. A survivor escaping won't lose the killer 20 MMR and a killer killing a survivor won't gain 20 MMR, the amount of MMR they will lose or gain will be determined at the end of the trial depending on how many survivors died, how long the match was, and the MMR level of the survivors.
So whether a killer gets a 3K or a 4K doesn't always matter since the killer can still get 20 MMR even if the 4th survivor gets the hatch because a 3K is still counted as a win for the killer.
I said "you gain up to 20 MMR". Not a flat +20 MMR. Assuming you misread this part of the message.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659160#Comment_3659160
None of that is proof of anything.
1) There is zero proof that MMR tries to match survivors and killers to the same MMR number. For example, if BHVR wanted to tilt the kill rate to the killer's favor, they might do something like match a 1,600 MMR killer with 1,400 MMR survivors... or pick whatever imbalanced match usually averages to a 60% win rate.
2) There is zero proof that it's symmetrically easy for survivors and killers to raise or lower their MMR by X amount.
3) There isn't a problem with hatch. BHVR said their goal is 60% kill rate. That's it. We don't need to worry about how often survivors get hatch, or how that affects win rates.
1) No definitive proof since I don't work at BHVR, but strong evidence, yes. Your system could theoretically work but it is way too convoluted. We know that MMR gains are symmetric +20 / -20, that the initial MMR system from 2021 was tuned for 50% killrate, and that Peanits has NEVER mentioned something like what you're suggesting, given all these elements my explanation is way more likely than yours.
2) don't understand what you mean here, but not my job to "prove" anything. I don't work at BHVR, how exactly do you expect me to prove to you that their MMR works in X or Y way? Besides, you're making the more convoluted claim here, so it should be your task to prove this claim, not mine to prove that it's wrong.
For 3) you're wrong, because we know that a hatch escape is worth 0 MMR, that has been confirmed several times by Peanits, and that will screw your system. For example, let's pick your example with a 1600 MMR killer playing against survivors at 1400 MMR. Let's say he plays against 100 survivors, in scenario A) he kills 60 of them, and 40 escape through the doors. In scenario B) he kills 60 survs, 20 escape through the doors, 20 escape through hatch. With your suggested system you only look at the killrate (60%) so the killer should stay at the same MMR after the games in both scenarios. In reality we know that's not true, a killer will gain a lot more MMR in scenario A).
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658782#Comment_3658782
When did BHVR ever say that DBD's MMR tries to achieve a 50% killrate?
If BHVR has a goal of 60% kill rate, they can just adjust the MMR formulas to aim for a 60% kill rate.
They can do it, but they haven't done it. It has been datamined that one kill gives you up to +20 MMR, one escape -20 MMR, and hatch 0 MMR. Since the numbers are symmetric, it's pretty clear that MMR aims at a 50% winrate.
Besides, I doubt it's as easy as you think. First there is a problem with hatch: a hatch escape counts as half a win for MMR but as 0 for killrate, then to achieve a 60% killrate, the target winrate for MMR should not be 60%, but more around 65-70%, and this starts to become very unbalanced. Touching MMR algorithm is also a pretty dangerous thing to do, since any wrong change to the formula might break balance for the whole playerbase. Maybe I'm underestimating them, but I think they just kept the previous MMR from 2021, noticed the killrate became 60% after balance changes, and decided that this was a good result so let's not touch anything.
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@tjt85 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658694#Comment_3658694
They would spend 10 minutes to queue up for a match, only to find themselves playing against the same handfull of players all day anyway.
So the top MMR Killers and Survivor teams would be back in the casual queue before long (this is especially true if they're also streamers, because their audiences won't want to watch DBD queue simulator).
I guess we should ask these top players directly but given that half of the matches are just: (1) killer gets a down in 10 sec, (2) survivor DC's, (3) Five painful minutes of cleaning up the 3 remaining survivors - there's a chance they wouldn't mind 10 minutes of queue to not get these pointless matches.
Again, picking the OW2 example that somebody mentioned, top DPS players have 10-20 minutes of queue in competitive, and yet they still prefer to queue in competitive. There's almost nobody who queues in quick play.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658678#Comment_3658678
Just out of curiosity, why do you think BHVR wants the kill rate to be 60%?
I think BHVR's intent is exactly what they said: to make the game feel like a horror game, while still keeping it relatively even. Sounds good in theory.
The problem is that in practice, I suspect it's not at all what happens in game. Possibly they accidentally broke MMR, as it still tries to achieve an illusory 50% killrate that is no longer possible due to game balance; I don't know exactly what's wrong, but having a 60% killrate while MMR still aims at 50% basically guarantees that something is wrong. It's like pushing both the pedal and brake at the same time and expecting the car to go at 50% speed. Maybe what happens, is that MMR works for some people and not for others, that would explain why some people claim to win all their games easily while others have to sweat to reach even 50%.
Additionally, killrate itself is a very questionable metric. It turns out that EVERY TIME that BHVR has shared stats about killrates in the past years, there was always at least one very ridiculous, counter-intuitive number. Just in this patch, we discovered that Sadako and Freddy have some of the best killrates, SWFs have almost the same escape rate as solos, and that lowering your MMR improves your chances of winning. Of course there are always ten logical explanations for why the chart is like it is, but there are also ten logical explanation for why it shouldn't be like that. In the end, if everybody has to interpret the chart their own way, you might as well ditch the chart.
Imagine going to the doctor to for an arm injury, and the only thing they do is monitor your temperature, then they tell you that your temperature is normal so you must be healthy: you probably would switch to a different doctor. Imagine that they attempt to fix your arm by giving you drugs that can only increase or decrease your temperature. This is what happens in DBD. People keep arguing whether the killrate should be 50% or 60% without realizing the massive elephant in the room, that almost nobody gets this killrate in practice. I don't play DBD nowadays, but I still watch streamers, and their match outcomes are always MUCH higher or MUCH lower than 60%, never close to 60%. Frequently what happens is that one day they win all their games, then the next day they go on losing streaks of 10+. Me, when I played killer back then, I would win almost every game, while I struggled to reach 30% on surv. Contrast this with almost every other game on the market, in Overwatch for example I played 1002 games and won 501, that's exactly 50% winrate, and the best players in the world have around ~62% winrate.
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@MalekithHatesSnow said:
What would a comp mode do? You haven't played Overwatch 2 if you think a comp mode is gonna suddenly fix all the "Sweaty" people in casual
In OW2 the casual queue is much more chill than your average DBD match. Not completely sweat-free, but much less than DBD, and much less than OW2's own competitive queue.
In contrast, in DBD, I've already faced tournament players myself a few times and if you look at tournament streamers like Momo7 (the guy who has 2000 winstreak on Blight) then he faces clearly inexperienced survivors who give up at 5 gens in half his matches. If there was a competitive queue at least this type of matches would not occur.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658607#Comment_3658607
The actual solution would be for BHVR to release the WIN RATE stats for killers, so we can actually see how close the win rates are between survivors and killers.
Winrate is practically the same as killrate, over a large amount of matches.
This winrate vs. killrate nonsense is just a forum thing to artificially make the statistic look lower, by counting 2K as a draw for the survivors but still a loss for the killer, then they say the killer winrate is lower than 60%. But this is flawed, a 2K should just be considered a draw for both sides.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658561#Comment_3658561
That’s not how MMR works. It tries to create matches of roughly equally skilled people. Look at fighting games: top players mop the floor with almost everyone in ranked mode. That doesn’t mean the player should be handicapped or the character nerfed. The best players will win the majority of their games. That’s how it should be. This 50/50 nonsense is lazy thinking that seems rational because it’s in the middle.
"The best players will win the majority of their games. That's how it should be"
In DBD, the AVERAGE killer wins the majority of their games. Not the best, the AVERAGE. In contrary, the best survivors don't win the majority of their games, unless they're top 1% in 4-man SWFs, that's what the charts say. Have you seen them?
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658561#Comment_3658561
Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's a contradiction.
You conveniently cut off the part that shows a higher escape rate for SWF at high MMR. More survivors at high MMR play as SWF, this offsets the kill rates and is why the lower proprtion of solo survivors have a lower average escape rate.
Moreover your 'contradiction' makes no sense if your point is that 'high MMR should have a higher win rate'. What about the killers win rate? If survivors had a higher escape rate at high MMR, that suggests killers would have a lower kill rate the higher their MMR.
Also, MMR can just as easily be tailored to acheive a 60/40 split as it can a 50/50 split depending on how each role's MMR is calculated. Most other game's MMR doesn't do this because most other games with MMR are symmetrical and don't have two distinct sides.
I'm glad someone is here to provide a theoretical, hypothetical and completely unprovable explanation for the statistics: the thread was really lacking those. Furthermore, explaining statistics after they have been published is a notoriously hard thing to do as we all know. I'm sorry that you don't like my use of the word "contradictory", next time I'll rather say "contradictory for anyone but Seraphor", seeing that you would have definitely predicted this sort of outcome beforehand.
Regarding me "conveniently cutting the picture", what are you trying to imply, exactly? Do you think I'm an angry survivor main cutting the picture to hide the truth that the game is secretly survivor-sided at high MMR? Because here's the full picture:
So the top 4-man SWFs have only 48% escape rate, we're talking about the highest MMR and only at 4-man, but I thought the game was survivor-sided at high MMR as I have read many times on this forum, that sounds 'contradictory' again. Can you please provide us another theoretical explanation?
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Not a comment on game balance itself but just a reminder that BHVR's justification for the 60% killrate makes absolutely no sense in a game with MMR.
MMR's job is to keep the killrate at 50% regardless of game balance. You could make killers move at 2x speed, the overall killrate would still be at 50%, the system will simply match experienced survivors against total beginners to achieve it. Actually, the kilrate should mathematically be more around ~40%, because hatch escape does not even count as a full escape for MMR.
So, the fact that the killrate is 60%, does not just mean the game is killer-sided. What it means above all, is that MMR is not doing its job.
I don't think anyone has a clue on what the killrate means, including BHVR. The stats they shared have always been pointless and full of contradictions, and even more after they explain them.
Like, look at this:
High MMR survivors, escape less than regular survivors? I'm sorry but what the #########? So the higher MMR you go, the more you lose? It's the single game on the planet that works like that.
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MomoSeventh has a 1800 winstreak running on blight and he only uses the speed add-ons. If a guy manages to never lose for a full year and literally REFUSES to use the best add-ons because he thinks it's too easy, I'm sure you can adapt too especially considering how much you bragged about your skill in this post...
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DS is a good perk, but it only works against a tunneling killer, and if I'm playing against one I'd rather just get out of this match quickly. So DS is kind of a wasted slot.
This is also why people don't bring OTR, Reassurance, etc. These are perks that are strong in certain scenarios, but you don't want to deal with these scenarios anyway. In solo queue, you're not going to win against the types of killers that use these strategies, regardless if you have DS+OTR etc. It's more pragmatic to just accept the L and prepare a build for non-sweaty matches.
From the killer's perspective, I get it that DS looks very strong, as it delays your chase. But from the survivor's perspective, especially solo queue, they see that every time DS activates, they still end up dying in the match, just 1-2 minutes later.
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Lots of mistakes here. First you decided to launch this game, which was at least a questionable decision. Then, you decided to play solo queue: this was a MASSIVE blunder. At that point, you were already completely lost. Then, you could have played a bit better during the match, but honestly that was too late as this point.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3606614#Comment_3606614
You may need to recheck your math. Claiming survivors win 0% of the time is, well frankly I just assume you're trolling here.
As for my numbers, they are accurate. Bear in mind, a killer winning means 0-1 survivors won that match. A killer not winning means 2-4 survivors won that match. That means 47.5% of the time on average, 0-1 survivors are winning their match. The other 52.5% of the time, 2-4 survivors are winning their matches.
Bear in mind, the game is not 1 killer vs survivor team. It's 1 killer vs 4 individual survivors each with their own win condition per the devs statement. For example, a 2k means the killer did not win (they need 3 or more to win), and the survivors had 2 winners amongst them. Alternatively, if the killer wins with a 3k, that means 1 survivor won, as well. It's a weird way to balance the game, but that's just how they do it. I think it would make more sense for it to literally be team vs team. I suppose they don't want someone to feel it's pointless to escape if they already lost 2 survivors. That being said, all it matters to survivors is if they escaped or not regardless of other survivors escaping or getting sacrificed.
Your number are accurate, they are just extremely misleading. Your math leads to 47% killer winrate because you count draws as 0 for killer, but 0.5 for survivors, so draws increase the survivor winrate, but not the killer winrate. Of course you are free to define a win as you want (and so am I). Regardless the underlying killrate is still 60% and what you're omitting to say is that even under your definition killers and survivors are still on a very uneven playing field.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3599653#Comment_3599653
60% kill rate means the killer does not win the majority of their matches. Just making sure you aren't confusing 60% kill rate with a 60% win rate. If that doesn't make sense to you, a 50% kill rate means a 2k. A 75% kill rate is a 3k. If you split that in half then a 62.5% kill rate would put killers at winning half their matches on average. However, since it's balanced around 60%, it means killers on average are actually somewhat shy of winning half their matches meaning they only win around 47.5% of their matches. The 40% on the survivors side you have to keep in mind that it is at an individual level and in reality there are 4 times the amount of survivors, so 40% is somewhat of a misnomer. If each survivor has a 40% chance at escaping, that's a fairly good chance at at least two survivors escaping preventing the killer from getting a win (3k). You also have to consider that many killers are actually under even the lowballed 60%, so it's actually worst for them than it would appear.
This is quite honestly, and I'm sorry to say, a very dishonest attempt to manipulate math.
Yes, win rate is not exactly kill rate, depending on how you count draws, but in the context of a balance discussion the difference is just cosmetic and will disappear in the averages. In fact, in your very own example (half 2k, half 3k) killers only win 47.5% of the time, that's true. But survivors win literally 0% of the time. So now they go from 1.5x less chance of winning, to INFINTE less chance, so the game would appear to be even more killer-sided, not less.
The point remains, a survivor is on average 1.5x less likely to survive, than the killer is likely to kill them. I am baffled that you believe that even with a 60% killrate there is still a way to make it sound like killers and survivors have roughly the same odds. They do not. They are, by most game standards, on a very uneven footing.
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Killers have a 60% kill rate, survivors have 40% escape rate. That means, if you as an average person click the "Play as survivor" button, you are reducing your chances of winning by 1.5x.
That is not balanced.
I'm sure you'll find a lot of reasons to explain why that's fine or you don't mind it, but stop pretending it's "balanced". Balance means 50-50. 60-40 is actually very imbalanced because of the way how percentages work.
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MMR in this game is extremely light, it definitely exists but as soon as you spend more than 1 minute in queue it starts panicking and will send you in the very first lobby it can find. So if you live in a region where you can't find games very fast, you can reset the queue after 30 sec and the games will feel more balanced on average, at least it feels like it for me. It doesn't work 100% though as the game can still decide to backfill you in some games and ignore your MMR entirely.
Regardless, having long streaks of losses in solo Q is perfectly normal. Counter-intuitvely, dropping MMR doesn't mean the game becomes easier. Because yes the killer will play worse, but your teammates will play worse as well, and DBD is a teamgame, most people would argue at low level it is killer-sided. For this reason, I'd recommend you to actually try to escape when possible and not throw your MMR.
When I play solo queue I escape about ~30%, and so do most of my friends. I can loop killers for way longer than the average survivor but it doesn't matter. Most of the games go the same way: either the killer chases me all game and then camps me in endgame, nobody rescues, and I die, OR the killer doesn't chase me, tunnels a teammate instead, camps the last gen in 3v1, and we all die. I first thought I was just a bad player but when I play SWF of killer I win more than 80%. For me the solution is just to avoid solo queue entirely as once you have played SWF/killer it just feels like it's a completely left aside gamemode. Solo queue is simply not worth the effort.
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@Evan_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552942#Comment_3552942
Why would you say that tunneling "artificially inflates mmr"? By the same logic, spreading hooks artificially deflates mmr. Though I'd rather say both happens naturally, placing every player to the mmr-range based on their efficiency and the tactics they employ.
It is well known that a player who decides to tunnel will get more kills on average than someone who spreads hooks, so by definition of DBD's MMR (kill + mmr, escape - mmr), then deciding to tunnel artificially inflates MMR and deciding to spread hooks artificially deflates it, yes.
The point of this statement, is that EVERYBODY loses from tunneling. The survivors hate when the killer does it, and the killer who does it will eventually get placed to a much higher MMR than they belong to, leading to even more frustrating matches where they can't win EVEN with tunneling. A good example is this thread [Impossible to win at high MMR without tunneling] where someone thinks that they are "high MMR" and can't win any of their matches even with tunneling, and Peanits replied exactly what I'm telling you.
Tunneling gives you easy wins at first, but extremely frustrating matches in the long run. In particular, saying beginner players should tunnel against sweaty SWFs is totally counterproductive advice.
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@appleas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552570#Comment_3552570
You come from the perspective that casual solos needs to be brought up so that they will continue to play the game, but what about casual Killers that play the game? They definitely won’t play like the killer streamers you watch.
If they come to the forums asking for changes, what’s your reply going to be to them? Get good? Learn to play? What’s stopping them from quitting DBD or switching to Survivor? Every 4 Survivors needs one Killer to start the game. Do you have confidence that casual players will continue to play Killer if they start having harder and stressful matches?
As for the more experienced Killers who are supposed to be matching with the experienced 4man swf and comp players, what happens when they stop playing Killer too? The game grabs the next best thing aka the casual Killers who take a beating. Sure they may only appear 1 out of 10 games, but someone needs to fill the roster when they do play, but are there enough Killers who can and want to play against them?
First of all most casual killer players don't tunnel, and they would barely care if DS duration was reverted to 5 sec. As for the ones who do, they wouldn't be matched against sweats in the first place if they weren't tunneling.
You're forgetting that this game has MMR. You're saying that beginner killers will get frustrated when they lose against better players, and so they need tunneling to be able to stand a chance, but this is the completely wrong approach. If you face better players then you should lose, and that will likely happen 50% of the time, so be prepared for it and if you get frustrated by this then the solution is to work on your nerves. But instead, you're asking for the devs to give cheese strats that enable a beginner killer player to win against a 4-man experienced SWF? This is completely breaking the game, and you're not even fixing the issue, because yes you'll maybe win some games at first, but eventually it'll raise your MMR even more, without teaching you how to play the game, so you end up playing against even sweatier players, until ultimately you lose and we get back to point A.
So yes, beginner players getting their ass slapped by sweaty SWFs is an issue, but this is what happens in every multiplayer game, there's no magic solution to fix it. Tunneling not only is NOT the solution for this, but it only makes the problem worse, because it allows bad players to artificially inflate their MMR just because they decided to tunnel. So MMR is even more broken and unbalanced matches happen even more often.
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The level of overreaction from killer OTPs to this thread is honestly embarrassing.
If you watch killer streamers, they don't need tunneling to win the vast majority of their games. In fact, most of them explicitly choose to not tunnel, because it's a stupid cheese strat that everyone knows works disproportionately well against solos and actively contributes to shrinking the playerbase.
Tunneling the weak link doesn't even teach you how to play properly, because it'll make you drop a lot of chases and instead of practicing vs. the good players of your lobby you'll just learn how to beat the weakest one as fast as possible. In contrast, killers who don't tunnel will practice 12 chases per game against all kinds of players and get much better at the game than you. I guess it's satisfying to get free wins at first but it'll raise your MMR to oblivion, then you'll complain about SWFs because suddenly you're facing 4 good players and can't win a single chase and they bodyblock to prevent you from tunneling.
I don't know a single top player who opposes against the DS duration nerf being at least partially reverted, killer or survivor. It's only on these forums that you see people defend tunneling or claim nonsense like "BHVR already nerfed tunneling with basekit BT" (guess what genius, the same update that gave basekit BT, nerfed DS, so it's a straight buff to tunneling because before you could have BT + DS, and now you only have BT).
And yes, it is needed against competitive players, but you are not facing those say more than 1/10 matches.
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Same experience here
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3530210#Comment_3530210
No, Sprint Burst gives 6m OVER THREE seconds. Accounting for the speed difference between killer and survivor (0.6), survivors travel 18m and killer travels 13.8m, so it gives 4.2 meters. The distance gained by Sprint Burst also isn't reset by every pallet break/vault/mindgame won against the killer, nor does it account for extra distance traveled INSIDE loops that were designed to be played at 4.0.
So again, assuming we start off with 10m of distance, SB extends it to 14.2m over 3 seconds. Over the next 12s, killer gains distance at 0.6m/s, at which point it's 7m of distance remaining, killer gets BL1, and gains distance at a rate of 0.8m/s, and catches up over 8.75s. Total chase time from beginning to end was 23.75s, or 101m traveled by the survivor. As compared to 19.12s from MFT (which again, resets after every distance gain by survivor and doesn't account for extra loops inside tiles or misplays recovered from). Sprint Burst buys you 4.63s on use, then loses you 2.87s on every 10m reset as compared to MFT.
Balanced perk yall.
So let me summarize, even with your math which accounts for all kinds of arbitrarily conservative assumptions:
- MFT extends the chase by +2.8 sec
- Sprint Burst extends it by +7.5 sec
Conclusion: Sprint Burst gives 2.8x more effect in chase than MFT
You can twist the math as much as you want, 3% is so negligible in terms of distance gained that MFT will always look subpar compared to every other exhaustion perk. Note that it's the consensus across top killer streamers as well, the distance gained is fine. I know DBD forums love buffing killers but at least don't make it sound like math is in your favor please.
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@burt0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529866#Comment_3529866
3 is 20% out of 15.
Also where do you get your 0.45 seconds from?
In an idealized example of a 10 meter head start for a survivor, running in a straight line and against a killer with no chase effective power (like many of the roster are):
With MFT:
- 15 seconds of 0,48 m/s gain (115% killer with 4,6 m/s vs 103% survivor with 4,12 m/s) before bloodlust kicks in -> distance reduced by 7,2 meters down from 10m (distance traveled 61.8m)
- bloodlust stage 1 kicks in and gives 5% movement speed/0.2 m/s, so 2.8 Meter at 0.68m/s gain -> time to close the remaining gap is 4.12 seconds (distance traveled 16.96m)
Time to catch-up is 19.12 seconds while travelling 77.76 meters to get to another pallet or window.
Without MFT:
- 15 seconds at 0.6m/s difference -> 9 meter caught up (60 meter traveled)
- BL 1 for 1 meter -> 0,8m/s gain -> 1.25 seconds (5 meter traveled)
Time to catch-up 16.25 seconds and 65 meter traveled.
That's roughly 17% more time (2.87sec) for the chase and 19.6% more distance (12.76m) traveled.
And this is only for 115% killer, not even the 110% ones.
Yes assuming the survivor has no other exhaustion perk at all, which is dumb and unrealistic. If I do the same math, but compare a survivor with MFT vs. a survivor with Sprint Burst (or any exhaustion perk), the result becomes very different:
Exhaustion perks give 150% for 3 seconds, ie. a 6 meters head start. Your chase with MFT started at 10 meters.
So, in this scenario. MFT gave you 17% more distance, but any other exhaustion perks give you ~60%. Almost FOUR TIMES MORE.
OP BHVR PLS NERF, SPRINT BURST, LITHE, OVERCOME, SO MUCH DISTANCE GAINED!!!!!!
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You should be in awe, you might have just played against Magnus Carlsen.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522948#Comment_3522948
Points for consistency i guess. I don't trust the data either, but if you believe balance should happen for the "Average" player, this is in fact the "average" player. It might have other factors, but if you think again, the game should be balanced around the "average" player, these are the statistics that matter.
If you want to start qualifying it with "well DLC, or, well console" no, you don't get to do that, because now you aren't looking at the "Average" player anymore.
What I'm saying is that these stats are mathematically garbage. It is due to methodology, has nothing to do with the content of the stats themselves. Check the wikipedia article on Simpson's paradox, as it will explain it much better than me. Basically, collecting data and making a chart out of it, even though everyone does it, is not statistics, that's disinformation. The correct way to make statistics is to use confounding variables. Needless to say, it's a lot more work, and 95% of statistics don't do that, which means, you can discard 95% of everyday's statistics just by knowing what a cofounding variable is. It may sound like nitpicking, but it's not, statistics are a cruel tool if you don't respect the rules, as shown in the Wikipeda page, there were studies that proved that a drug was effective at curing patients, then another study that proved the same drug was killing them, and both used the same data slightly reorganized.
BHVR's chart doesn't account for two obvious confounding variables which are 1) the platform and 2) the player experience, so it holds exactly 0 value, If BHVR gave me the data behind this chart, I could reorganize it and prove anything with it.
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@TheSaltySaloon said:
I take most of the “”criticism”” or feedback of my gameplay with a grain of salt. “Use your chainsaw at loops” ok and I’ll either touch the sides of the loop and go into a tantrum or still just get hit with the pallet because we all know just how inconsistent bubbas chainsaw is for pallet drops.
Your mistakes went far beyond just not using the chainsaw.
You did not attempt anything in this game. Basically you're mindlessly following the survivor and pressing Space instantly every time they drop a pallet, and hoping the game will reward you for your effort. But that's not how Bubba works.
The worst part is, you could pick a killer like Knight and you could get away with this playstyle. But for some reason you chose to play a hard killer, that you don't know how to play nor want to learn, with bad perks and no add-on, without camping, without tunneling, on one of the worst maps, and you decide to chase the best survivor for half of the match. You realize how badly unbalanced the game would have to be if you could win that match? I mean at least equip the Chillis.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522490#Comment_3522490
Few questions for you.
- Do you think this game is balanced at the highest level play without requiring rules that limit perks, or addons/items or other kinds of point systems, but simply a kills vs escapes standpoint?
- Do you think this game should be balanced around top level players, or average skilled players?
- Do you think nurse needs a nerf?
- Do you think 1k win streaks are fine?
- Do you think this game is a "party game"?
- I think the game is very unbalanced at high level, but it does not matter. See 2)
- The game should be primarily balanced for average players, but also for top players when possible. Nurse is a good example of that as she was too oppressive when played well or with Starstruck+AA but you'd rarely come across one that actually exploited it. I think she was addressed decently as the addon nerfs will not affect the average player so this is an example of a balance change that correctly takes all levels of plays in consideration. My priority would be to buff solo queue. Survivor should be less team-reliant and solo survivors should have specific buffs (like kindred basekit). Devs should also add more goofy ways to play like Plot twist or things like stabbing grandpa in TCM, to encourage players to sweat less when there is a matchmaking difference and not have the match be a pointless stomp where the result is predetermined within the first 30 sec.
- No for the most part, Nurse could get more tweaks for high-level play but is one of the least problematic killers for the actual playerbase.
- No, the game should have enough randomness to make this kind of streaks impossible.
- DBD is not a party game. But it used to be, and should have remained this way.
I'd also add that I do not trust the official kill rates as they have been collected with a profound lack of knowledge of how statistics work, and are basically meaningless for anyone who knows math. The data that you shared is a prime example of Simpson's paradox. You would like to think that the killrate of each killer shows how powerful they are, but in reality this graph is massively influenced by external factors, in particular 1) which killers come from paid DLCs and 2) which killers are hard to play on console. Notice that the top 5 killers are all paid and the bottom 3 all free, in fact 2 of them are basekit. You can explain almost all the placements with just these 2 factors. As for Nurse, she is both hard to play on console AND one of the few basekit killers. What happens is, people who do not play killer very well have a much higher chance to play Nurse for their challenges rather than Wesker, and so they drag the killrates down. In contrast, someone who plays Freddy will almost certainly be a fan of the character and an experienced killer, so he ends up at 5th top kills.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522469#Comment_3522469
And there it is, you hit the nail right on the head, comp players. Show me a single game of a bubba winning against a team like eternal.
This thread was not made by a comp player tho. It was made by an average player playing against average survivors. In fact, even "average" is questionable, as Yui and Jake were complete babies (downed after 10 sec). Out of the remaining two survivors, one knew how to loop but did some mistakes (the Cheryl) and one was looping well (the Nick).
Guess what, out of these 4 survivors, the one OP decided to commit on for the full match was the Nick, the one who knew how to loop.
On top of that, he played addonless, with a difficult killer, on one of the worst maps, and decided to play Mr. Nice (no tunneling/camping even in endgame).
Map RNG is such a non-issue in this gameplay I find it very troubling so many people think it proves a point.
I don't disagree with you about Bubba being hell in pro matches, but you're talking about 0.001% of the playerbase (literally - you didn't even say "Show me a bubba winning against pros" you said "show me a Bubba winning against Eternal").
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522460#Comment_3522460
There is literally 0 things you can try as leatherface. Maybe if you are a nurse/blight/spirit, but as usual, those killers shouldn't be mentioned when talking about game balance as it relates to loops/pallets/general survivor gameplay. Because they don't play the same game, and need to be changed at a different level.
Yes you could break the pallet at least. Maybe you have 0 chance against comp survivors, but he's not playing against those, just look at the video, Cheryl wasn't even using the window, she tried to vault the pallet. He could mindgame the pallet here.
And if we assume comp level of play then it's also fair to assume a comp Bubba also have Bamboozle and could break the loop anyway.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522389#Comment_3522389
- I agree with you at 3:31,
- Against leatherface a properly played pallet gym is safe until he bloodlusts and if you are bloodlusting loops, you are losing.
- 4:02 , ######### are you smoking? The fun bus is by far the safest structure in the entire game, minus maybe the window in garden of joy.
- 4:59, maybe.
Ngl I skimmed through the video and I confused the bus tile, I thought it was the new one with 2 separate buses and no window. I thought the old one was gone, but apparently it can still spawn?
Regardless, yes it's a much safer tile with the window but there are things you can try, at the very least he could have broken the pallet.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522399#Comment_3522399
I'm going to check because some of these are far too high.
You probably forgot that most maps have a few pallets like this:
So yeah most maps have way more than 8-10 but that's not saying much since several are too unsafe to be practical or are located in a corner of the map. In fact, based on the list Midwich is supposedly the map with the most pallets (25), And yet ask anybody to enumerate them, they would probably struggle to name more than ~15.
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You complain about safe pallets, but you broke unsafe pallets mindlessly, like at 3:31 or 4:08. You could have got a hit by mind-gaming or bloodlusting these tiles.
At 4:02 Cheryl drops the most unsafe pallet on this map, and you could easily have got a down, but you drop chase for no reason. Why..?
At 4:59 you would have likely hit the survivor by doubling back, that way he wouldn't get the vault in the correct direction.
Last but not least, you were playing without add-ons which is a crucial problem. Bubba is not a bad killer normally, but he relies on his add-ons more than other killers, particularly the Chillis. Without Chilli the chainsaw is useless in chase as you don't gain enough distance to compensate for the charge time, so you are basically playing a M1 killer but super tall and easy to track through tiles. And you probably realized it too, as you almost did not use your power in chase, only when catching survivors in the open.
In short, you are literally playing the WORST killer in the game, on one of the WORST maps, against survivors who are clearly better than you, so this is one of the WORST possible situation... and you still got one kill. If the game was "fixed" so that you would win this match, then killers would basically win every match.
You should watch good Bubba players and compare with your gameplay.
Here's an example:
https://youtu.be/Q8FV9WzYUjM?t=29Notice how different they play compared to you:
1) they use Chilli (which comes clutch several times eg. at 4:20)
2) they use their chainsaw all the time, including in chase against injured survivors (eg. at 5:10)
3) they mindgame a lot. (eg. at 6:06)
If you don't like looping, you have dozens of options to choose from. Nurse will ignore pallets. Huntress and Deeathslinger are ranged. Knight literally does the chase for you. But if you don't like breaking pallets just don't pick Bubba.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Wait really? Why would they change scratch marks at this point in the game's lifecycle? This stuff drives me nuts. What is this meant to improve? Who is complaining about this? What is this trying to solve?
I agree with your point but scratch marks have been very weird for the past year, so hopefully they are reverting them to what they were and not just breaking stuff for the sake of change...
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Something is wrong yeah. It's like some survivors just don't leave scratch marks for one second. It's very rare but annoying enough to notice, and I have the feeling that it started to happen only 6-9 months ago which makes me think this is a bug. Maybe that's just me but I also have the impression that it happens particularly on Haddonfield?
I've seen at least one instance where I've chased a TTV around the stairs and his scratch marks were very discontinuous. I lost him and thought he had corner tech'd me. But then when I looked at their POV they were running normally and had no particular perk.
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Just normal DBD netcode, and don't expect to be fixed, it has only become worse over the years...
At least if killer ping was shown in lobby then you could account for it and maybe not attempt such vaults. But we still don't even get this basic information for some reason.
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DBD is the only game I know where it is considered normal for (killer) players to win 75%+ of their matches. In any other online game, winning ~10 games in high MMR would immediatly put you at the top of the ranked leaderboard, but not in DBD, where a 10-winstreak would probably not get you any attention - in fact most killers on this forum probably got such a streak, several times -. and we're now having someone with a THOUSAND wins in a row.
For comparison, the absolute best player on Overwatch leaderboards, sits at 62% winrate. Despite hard carrying every single of his matches. He still often loses due to RNG and matchmaking, as should be the case in any online game. But not in DBD.
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@Unimatrix00 said:
Sure, Skull Merchant can be fun to play and play against when not focusing on 3 genning. Granted, I think survivors need to recognize when they 3 gen themselves.
Yeah like these beginner survs from Team Eternal who took 50 minutes to break a 3-gen against a 800-hour skull merchant, what a bunch of noobs /s