Saiph
Saiph
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Because the devs are severely out of touch with their game. I'm sorry to say it in such a crude way but there's no way the person who developed this feature has played DBD for more than 10 hours. It took years for it to be implemented, and yet still suffers from the exact problem as before, the worst part is that most DBD players were able to tell within MINUTES that the reworked BP spending was STILL too slow and lackluster...
The goal was to make the BP spending fast so why is there still so much idle time. Why still show the pointless level 5 / 10 /15 text and unskippable transitions between levels. What's so hard in making a button "Instantly prestige this character for 1.4M bloodpoints". I know the BP animations look cool and stuff but they really should be completely skippable after you've prestiged several times. All these features were requested for literal years and the fact it was still not implemented correctly is one of the many unexplainable things in this game like the obnoxious chat filter or the various game-breaking bugs we see release after release.
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Most of the things that are "fun" for one side end up being considered unfun for the other side. There are however, things that are fun for BOTH sides, and also things that are unfun/boring for both sides. Good game design should remove the latter and maximize the former.
Things that I find fun on both sides:
- chases, especially mind games
- Killers: Blight (except C33), Billy, Bubba. Note that these 3 killers are almost universally liked by top DBD players who play both roles eg. Scott Jund's tier list
- Flashlights and people attempting to meme around (I'd rather play against that than gen rushers)
- Bloodpoints and incentives to go for 12 hooks (Pain resonance)
Things that I find unfun on both sides:
- Generators (most boring part of the game) and especially toolboxes
- Tunneling (is needed for killers to win, and despised by everyone)
- Big maps, like the reworked Red Forest
- 75% of the killers in the game, especially Knight, SM, Spirit, Trapper and Hag.
- No option to limit max ping, and ping of the killer not being shown at all
- Camping, especially when killer is forced to do it (like end game)
- Hatch+slug situations (encourages the survivors to hide, and the killer to slug for 4k)
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3463641#Comment_3463641
Judging from the amount of complaints about this, it could actually be considered a full gameplay experience.
Sure, dying with so little points sucks. But most of the time i see those points, its because that survivor suicided.
I´ve also seen killers play a full match with less than 10k points (its possible...) doesn´t happen a lot, but meh.
Best thing to do is move on to the next match and not wait until the match ends, to tell the killer how much you love him. I´ve been at that point, where i was fuming. But at the end of the day, its just a match you won´t remember in a couple of hours(days).
I suspect you get a very different survivor experience than people here, by your own admission ("I don't see facecamping in my games"), and you are not talking about the same thing as other people.
Let me share a game that I saw last night on Alby's stream that perfectly demonstrates OP's point. It was Alby's 2nd match, and the game already featured tunnel + facecamp.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1853950244?t=0h13m36s
That Yui who got tunneled got 6.5k bloodpoints total. She did not suicide on hook nor insult the killer. She stayed til end game chat, just to tell that she was just happy to play with a streamer.
Since the killer plays Spirit (A-tier at least) and enduring+spirit fury, it's understandable that Yui lost the first chase quite fast.
After she got unhooked, she got immediatly tunneled out and facecamped. So basically, her whole gameplay experience was the 1st chase.
I'm not saying there's an obvious solution. But there's an obvious problem. There are 5 players in the game, not just 2.
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@Eelanos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3460240#Comment_3460240
I'm gonna be honest, them not trying to tackle tunneling and camping as issues and considering them "Strategies" is just their way of getting rid of any responsability for poor balancing.
In no game the core mechanic for winning is just standing still until the end of the match, but it's easier to leave it like that and let the community fight amongst themselves than actually coming up with a proper set of rules and mechanics rework so actually playing the game is way more effective than not doing so.
BHVR is terrible when it comes to actual fixes, always opting for releasing extremely situationa perks to "fix" issues and avoid responsability by saying "Well, the perk is there. Maybe you should equip it?".
And this is not a "this side" or "that side" issue. Reassurance and Shattered Hope are in the exact same position being bandaid solutions to avoid responsabilities instead of coming up with actual fixes.
I agree with you. I would also add, that it's a very convenient way for BHVR to redirect player's hate towards each other ("my teammates suck", "killer is a tryhard") rather than at the devs for lazy balancing. Still, the situation is what it is, the game is now balanced around tunneling and camping, so if you would suddenly remove them it would become extremely survivor-sided at top level, and that needs to be acknowledged by survivors. Yes ideally that situation should have been prevented much earlier but it's not a very constructive debate. The persons in charge of balance now might not even be the same as those who let that happen.
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It's not just miserable like before. It's literally the worst that it's ever been.
Do NOT play solo queue in this game.
I played many terrible games before, like, games that were unplayable, that made me angry, or games that wasted my time. But nothing is like DBD. Playing solo queue in DBD gives you such a unique sense of despair and loss of faith in humanity that I believe it could seriously be considered part of some sort of Milgram experience. Just like you, I played in 2022 and thought it couldn't ever get worse, but I was wrong. Not only has the average IQ somehow still managed to decrease, but now every competent player has transitioned to SWF, and what remains for your teammates selection is now an exclusive catalogue of the most useless, selfish and incompetent DBD players on Earth. The end result is truly unimaginable. You'll see players with 1000 hours drop shack pallet on your face while you're the one getting chased by the killer. You'll see your whole team hiding in lockers or basement while the killer is hooking you on the other side of the map. You'll see people doing dull totems and chests while you're going 2nd phase on hook. You'll see players with 15 hours on DBD get matched with players who have 10000, and somehow the one with 15 lasts longer in chase. Realistically, most scenarios you'll experience will be so uniquely and creatively stupid that I don't think I can even predict them.
And don't hope for MMR to save you, it is an absolute joke. You will regularly lose 5, sometimes 10 games in a row, then when you think you are in the abyss of MMR and your teammates have reached negative chase time, when you think maybe the game will finally show a bit of mercy, THAT'S WHEN, you'll face a Nurse TTV on their 100+ game winstreak.
You might think "OK I'll lose most of the games but at least I can still have fun with the killer". Nope. The game nowadays can not be carried no matter your chase skill. As survivor, expect to fight mostly Knight / Skull merchants who "secure objectives" (aka. 3-gen, facecamp etc.). They have no business chasing you, at the moment they'll see you drop a single pallet they'll switch to one of your teammate prodigies instead, who will last 5 sec, and then proceed to triumphally suicide on hook and leave you 3v1 at 5 gens.
If you absolutely want to go back to the game, play with at least 1 friend. Solo queue is cannon fodder for killers. MMR is a joke. Do NOT play solo queue.
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The problem with camping/tunneling is that they ruin the game for casual players but are actually needed and balanced at top level. So if BHVR gets rid of it, they will have to seriously rebalance the game. I hate tunneling/camping as game mechanics, but I acknowledge that it is very hard to win for killer against a good SWF without tunneling.
I don't think BHVR even has the ability to do such a rebalance based on what we've seen in the past years (esp. DS duration nerf, totally backwards...). I still wish they tried more. The casual playerbase is what's the most important for a game ultimately. If there are no casual players left then the game becomes a sweatfest and both sides won't like that. This is what we've been seeing in the past 2 years where both sides think the game is becoming more and more difficult, without realizing that it's not due to balance changes, but rather that the playerbase is half of what it used to be so on average they are playing against much better players than before.
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The anti-facecamp change is extremely niche and won't have any effect in actual games. It was very clearly done to counter a specific Twitch streamer who does it excessively and while hitting on hook. It took BHVR one year and 500+ consistent viewers to realize something was wrong with this "strategy" but at least they addressed it.
Following this change, facecampers will adapt and find the next busted "strategy" within a week, then we'll have to wait another year. So regarding your main complaint "I'm tired of killer players being jerks", I'm sorry to say that this is delusional and currently the best solution is to simply not play DBD, killers still have 50 other ways to be jerks, like holding a 3-gen for an hour, excessive slugging etc. Even prior to this update facecamping was objectively one of the least effective ways to win. It does grant easy win against 90% of solo queue players, but there are other ways to win that work against 100% of them.
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OP you're being a bit dishonest. Yes you're still getting camped/tunneled/slugged but now it will be by Singularity whereas before it was by other killers, so the game definitely feels fresh and new in this regard. Btw your screenshot does not have a single survivor DC so I suspect it's fake.
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A lot of killer players approach this game as a job. They think that if their killrate is high enough then someone will come and pay them one day. They absolutely don't mind wasting 2 minutes of their own time sitting idle near you if that enables them to increase said killrate. You need to realize, a lot of them are on a win-streak. It would be unconceivable for them to lose it, as DBD is their life and failing at DBD would mean failing at life. They are not playing a game against other players, for them survivors are nothing more than statistics.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3449444#Comment_3449444
I just want to respectfully ask what you want the motion sick players to do? (The other keeps dodging) not play? They have a perk that partially or completly solves their problems in this game? Or always run 1 perk down (which goes against bhvrs want for accessibility to not be exclusive to perks. Thats why spinechill was changed and put half into the basekit). Hell like you said the visual tr and lullaby helps against a few instances for free. (Sadako being a big one since shes supposed to test you with light lullaby) but since they said that didnt make a major change to the gamestate. (Same as the hud) why not help killers out with a problem they have had for years? (Like i can keep running 3 perk if ya want) just relieved my situation won't hold me back from playing the same game as everyone else?
Where did I imply motion sickness players not being allowed to play at all? Genuinely wondering. I have literally re-read my paragraphs and have no clue what makes you think that.
The thing that is great with your argument is that it is exactly what I asked in my initial message. I, as survivor, can't play the game in optimal conditions with the current survivor FOV, I can't see the sides of my screen very well, and sometimes I die due to it. So I would like to kindly ask the devs to give us a FOV slider as well. I hope you're not against it? Do you @supersonic853 want to prevent survivors suffering from motion sickness from playing the game, or what?
While we're at it, Windows of Opportunity is also an accessibility feature, it helps people with poor eyesight better discernate pallets. Besides, only new players really benefit from it anyway. It's not fair for all these people to waste a perk slot, right?
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@fulltonon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3449229#Comment_3449229
Because, you can literally see something that you can't with third person
No, it's not something you can see just by moving mouse around, you can literally see something you are not supposed to see from that exact positions.
"saves you from moving screen extremely quickly just to see people" and "allows you to see something you can't" is entirely different things, former is what shadowborn does and latter is what square resolution did (aka survivor FoV does).
And in the end it doesn't matter if it's qol or not, kill rates will not even move in slightest even with all those "advantage" I'm pretty sure.
Kill rates will definitely increase as the result of this change. According to Nightlight, shadowborn is used by 7.2% of killer players, giving it for free will allow these players to equip one new perk. Say, this new perk improves their killrate by +10%, then the overall killrate will increase by 0.7%. That's just mathematical, and ONLY considering current shadowborn users.
But in reality, EVERYONE will use the new FOV, not just those who equip Shadowborn. We're already seeing everyone use the visual terror radius and that thing barely even gives any advantage. Now imagine what will happen for increased FOV, which unlike visual terror radius, gives an advantage that players DON'T already have. Everyone will equip it, motion sick or not. As a result, experienced killers can use it hide the red stain a bit more, they will be less affected by FOV techs so the survivor gameplay will change. Killer streamers will use it so the viewer experience will be different. Etc.
I'm all for accessibility features, but they must have a trade-off, otherwise they will be used by everybody including those who don't need them. In the latter case, they shouldn't be considered accessibility features but an actual gameplay change. The current shadowborn, gives an advantage to everybody, including people without motion sickness, but abuses are prevented by the fact that you need a perk for it, so mostly the people with real motion sickness use it. I'd argue the visual terror radius thing, should have come at some expense as well, eg. reduced radius for the sound-based one.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3449180#Comment_3449180
Third person and First person is entirely different things, at least you could have slightly widened horizontal FoV but definitely not the vertical.
or perhaps you are trying to be sarcastic as "can see whole tile" is obviously a problem lol, I don't know.
Higher FOV has just as many implications in 1st person, as in 3rd person. Most 1st-person games limit FOV to a low value (eg. Overwatch limits it at 107). So if you see why that's "obviously a problem" in 3rd person - quoting you - then you can't argue that it's not a problem in 1st person.
I'm just showing people who make the argument that this is QoL, that it's not. It has gameplay implications. One big implication in particular, is that with a high enough FOV, the killer could hide the red stain in chase, while still seeing the survivor.
As soon as BHVR makes the FOV slider available, literally everyone will put it to the max, there's no downside to it even for people who don't suffer from motion sickness. You might argue that killers need this buff, I'd argue they don't, but in any case treating it as QoL is dishonest.
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So weak he still has a > 50% killrate, aka. a better winrate than the whole survivor role. No need to be that dramatic.
Trapper is not weak. At least not against the average DBD player. I win 90% of my Trapper matches on ladder, the rare ones I lose are almost always against SWFs and making Trapper work against those would be extremely oppressive for the average soloQ gamer (who probably has half of the Trapper's winrate btw). His winrate is good enough considering he's also an extremely unfun killer to face, based on camping and 3-gens.
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Since this is just a QoL change and not a buff, can survivors have it too? I get motion sickness when looping as survivor, please let me increase the FOV and also move the camera a bit further behind so that I can see the whole tile.
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It wouldn't be a problem in any other game, only in DBD where having high ping as killer gives all sorts of unfair advantages.
The worst part is that you can't even SEE the killer's ping, you have to die under a pallet just to get basic information, thanks BHVR
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I don't know if the map is that killer-sided but the 3-gen in the corner behind shack is absolutely insane, probably the strongest in the game. You can win on this map just by camping there all match, it should be an automatic win unless the survivors are on comms. Some may argue that RPD's 3-gen is stronger but at least it depends on RNG (might even be fixed, from what I've seen) while Dead Dawg gives you a consistent 3-gen that you can camp from the start.
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I would probably be very annoyed too if I was your teammate. Taking my item is OK, I'd argue it's even a smart move since you're saving it from Franklin's regression. But refusing to give it back is sort of a d*ck move, yes you found it but we both know it was my item. Maybe I brought it for a challenge, because I had a specific build around it, etc. This kind of behavior is yet one more reason why I despise solo queue. There's already a killer, I don't need another player actively stealing my stuff.
I'm also baffled that you somehow find an event flashlight on the ground, yet don't realize that obviously their owner is going to come back where it was to try and find it. It is basic teamwork awareness. If I found an item like this I would probably pick it up too, but try to give them back when I meet them. If that person has to find me by themselves and make gestures to ask for the item I'd consider that we've already screwed big time.
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I'd argue the self-care nerf in 6.1 was the single worst change that BHVR has ever done.
It considerably widened the gap between casual and veteran players for no good reason. It made solo queue an even more frustrating experience, where you get teammates who do totems instead of gens, but now they also have to spend half the game healing in a corner on top of it. This nerf also made it apparent that BHVR balance team has no clue of how their game works, preferring a mindless pickrate-based approach to balance rather than trying to understanding it or simply listening to veteran players.
Self-care was already considered a weak perk before it was nerfed, as CoH gave you the same effect but for your whole team, and medkits give you a much better effect than both without any perk requirement. Otzdarva rated it 3/5 (mediocre) in his 5.4 perk tier list, that was BEFORE the nerf.
But it was a popular perk for casual players, because it was easy to unlock, had a very noob-catchy description, and because most casual players simply didn't realize how much busted the medkits were.
Then BHVR balance team looked at an Excel spreadsheet, saw that self-care was the top survivor pick, and nerfed it, without any consideration. The perk had high pickrate, so it had to be OP. Even worse, every content creator knew that this nerf was stupid, but they did not complain about it, because 6.1 patch also brought many other changes (like Dead Hard 1st nerf), and nobody really cared about a perk that only casual players use.
For me, this change single-handedly killed the casual playstyle. For months after 6.1, self-care was still top 5 survivor perk on nightlight, despite being considered universally a throw pick (at least without botany). Low MMRs kept equipping the perk regardles and lost game after game as a result, so they stopped playing. Mid-MMR players got these low MMR players as teammates, so they progressively stopped playing, too. Which leads to the sweat fest that DBD has become now.
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@SirCracken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442391#Comment_3442391
I feel like this entire post as turned into me endlessly repeating myself. So here I go again.
It is absolutely entitlement that drives players to giving up or DC'ing at the start of a match. It has nothing to do with matchmaking. Although I'd hesitate to call the system that DbD uses put players together "matchmaking". It's more like a slot machine with thousands of potential combinations where getting a balanced game is winning the jackpot.
People who've had a decent amount of time with DbD, like the Ada in my game, should know by now that they will face maps, or killers, or builds that they don't like. Keyword here is "like". It has little to do with balance contrary to the excuses that many will make. And whenever they have to deal with something they don't "like" they will throw a tantrum and make it everyone else's problem.
There's no excuse for this. I know full well that when I play solo que survivor I am probably going to have some really crap games. And when those games happen, guess what? I keep playing through them. I don't make things worse for everyone else simply because I'm not having fun. That's it. End of story. Stop trying to justify the normalization of selfish behaviour as the game's fault. It is 100% the player's fault for continuing to play a game that they don't enjoy, and ruining the experience of other players as a result.
And while you're at it, stop lying about MMR. "Decent MMR", or any type of MMR for that matter, does not exist. I've already made a post with a link to a video detailing how the MMR system really works. And I'm tired of people who keep saying that, "You wouldn't understand because you don't play at the same MMR as me".
EVERYONE PLAYS AT THE SAME MMR.
MMR has only 2 brackets: One for new players, and one for everyone else. There's no attempt to match people together who are similar MMR because the system prioritizes getting into matches quickly instead of creating fair matches.
Let's agree to disagree then.
You didn't address my question though. Imagine if when playing killer you were matched 75% of the time against SWFs switching items and skins at the last minute, with map offering, and got only 25% of other matches that are normal. Would you play every single match? Would you continue playing DBD eventually?
There is, absolutely, MMR in this game. It's extremely poorly implemented and you need to play an insane amount of matches to notice a difference, but eventually you will. If you have less than ~500 hours on survivor, there's a good chance that you are still low MMR, and that's why I'm asking you to confirm you have at least this amount of hours, otherwise, you can't relate with this Ada, because you are not playing against the same killers as her, at least not as frequently.
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@SirCracken said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/J15N6Q0LYKAP/img1-png.png
Shortly after loading into Haddonfield, (one of the many maps that doesn't favour Knight without Call to Arms), I am greeted with the Ada in the middle of the street. She gives up the moment she sees me and doesn't move the whole match. I want to finish the game ASAP so I can verse a team of survivors that actually want to play the game. So I down her and go after the other survivors. The Mikaela gives up as well shortly afterwards. Once everyone is dead I go to the end-game chat to ask why someone would give up at the drop of a hat. This was the brief conversation we had:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/D2O2EXYGYKC1/img2-png.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/D9DT0DDD630K/img3-png.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/LW51MU9E9VOW/img4-png.png
I want to preface the argument I'm about to make with some very important facts:
- I am fully aware that DbD isn't a balanced game in the slightest.
- I am fully aware that Knight isn't fun to verse for most people.
- I do not think people should be forced to keep playing a game they find unfun.
Now with that being said...
The people who act like this, who give up the moment a game starts because they have to go against something they don't like, are among the most entitled and toxic people in the DbD community.
I'll now explain why using the Ada in my game as an example. As you may have noticed she's a P100 player, like me. So she would have had to put in at least several hundred hours into the game. Likely over one thousand hours in total. With that in mind it's safe to assume that she is aware of elements of the game that aren't very well designed, or just not to her liking. And that by loading up the game, clicking the "Play Survivor" button, and finding a lobby, that there is a chance that she will encounter something that she doesn't like.
I will testify that there are absolutely things that I hate having to deal with as P100 Knight. Well over 50% of the maps in the game just do not favour him. And if you want to win on these maps you have to pick up the slack of the bad map design and play near flawlessly most of the time. It isn't fair, it isn't balanced, but that's just how DbD is.
I know that when I load into a game there's a high chance that I am going to struggle if I want to do well. It's a fact that I accept because I like playing the character so much and I'm willing to put up with stuff like this so I can enjoy being Knight.
But that does not make it ok to ruin the game for 4 other people simply because someone has to deal with something they don't like. In this case, it was a specific killer. I know that some of you who bothered to read this looked at my build and are thinking: "Knock-Out on Knight? Well of course they gave up! No one wants to be slugged."
Except that the Ada gave up the instant she realised that she was against a Knight. I hadn't even gotten a single down and this person single-handedly ruined the game of 4 other people because they thought they were above dealing with something poorly designed in DbD. People like Ada really don't care about how other people play. They have an arbitrary list of things that they personally don't like. And if they encounter any of these things they will not hesitate to throw the game, or give up, or DC, because they cannot fathom dealing with something they don't like.
Let me break this down for you...
- This player likely put in thousands of hours to P100 a character.
- They did this despite knowing how "unfun" the game was for them.
- They knowingly and willing loaded up the game to play a match with 4 other people who all have to deal with the exact same "unfun" things that they do.
- And the moment they encounter something that they don't like, they prioritise themselves over everyone else because they feel they don't have to deal with things like the other people who also play this game.
- And they repeat this over, and over, and over again because they simply don't care about the other players. Even though they are the only reason they are able to find matches in the first place.
I want to make clear that giving up or DC'ing during a game isn't always a bad thing necessarily. If the game is basically over and the killer is just hooking/waiting for everyone to bleed out because of bad hook spawns, then DC'ing just helps end the game faster for everyone. Or if your 3 team mates just ran into the jaws of a camping Leatherface there simply isn't much you can do and giving up prevents the game from stalling and lets you move onto another match as soon as possible.
And I need to state again that I am not making excuses for the terrible design decisions of this game. We all know that DbD is light-years away from perfect. But you're going to make the choice of playing it then you have to accept that, at some point, you are going to deal with things that you don't find fun.
And if you don't want to deal with things that you don't find fun, that's totally fine! Load up a different, better made game like DRG and enjoy yourself there. You aren't being held hostage. You are free to do something that, unlike DbD, you know you will enjoy.
But if you keep loading into games, knowing full well what might await you, and you keep DC'ing or giving up, ruining what little fun was left to be had for everyone else, and then refuse to take accountability for your actions...
Then you are part of the problem. And you need to uninstall this game.
OP, have you played survivor? Specifically, have you played solo survivor, for at least ~500 hours, ideally at a decent MMR.
As survivor, half the matches nowadays feel like a waste of time that makes you literally regret playing. You can enter the match, and in 10 seconds see one of your teammates get downed then camped/tunneled. You can sit on gens for the whole match, then die to NOED and your teammates leave because they don't know how to rescue you. You can face a sweaty Nurse while your teammates cleanse dull totems for their challenge. Then, you get a series of five Skull merchants who play a tower defense, and when finally you think you got a normal game, you get slugged on the ground for the full 4 minutes because the killer did not like that you ran him for a bit too long.
So as survivor, you basically accept loss after loss, hoping the next game will finally be good. You usually know from the first 30 seconds whether it's going to be a bad game or not. This Ada probably thought it was a bad one, and AFK's to speed up the process. I won't really argue whether she should be allowed to do that or not, but I will argue that just by looking at the endscreen I can tell with reasonable confidence that she was right: this match is not going to be fun.
First, look at this matchmaking. In the same lobby, you have 3 experienced survivors, and 1 clueless Thalita who only asks to get tunneled at 5 gens. Maybe you, as killer, want to play nice, but survivors don't know that, and seeing your hatch offering, probably think they're facing yet another killer on a 4k winstreak. You also have knockout for some reason, which is a perk I've only seen be used with malicious intent, ie. excessive slugging. Then finally you're playing knight, so they can't even have fun getting chased. They'll have to hide and sit on gens all game, only to lose it anyway because the odds were flawed from the start. Maybe you are going to actually chase them, but again, they can't know that, and it would be unreasonable to assume it from their end, as their last 10 matches against knight have been long boring 3-gen scenarios.
One of your argument is "You should not queue if you don't like certain killers", but there are two problems with this argument. The first one: there are now 32 killers in this game, at this point I doubt you can find someone who doesn't hate at least one of them, be it for balance reasons (eg. Nurse/Blight/Spirit too strong), uninteresting gameplay (Knight/SM/antiloop killers) or other person-specific reasons (eg. Plague vomit effects, Dredge dark screen). You as a killer don't have to face this dilemna, since you're playing against only 1 type of survivor, and while maps/perks still play a major role, it's not like playing 32 different games at the same time.
The 2nd argument is that, you're telling people to leave and play something else, but that's already what most people actually do. Judging by Steam charts, the majority of players only come to play at events for a few weeks, then immediatly leave. In the past, the game had a much better player retention. The players you are seeing DC in the game are a minority, the majority are actually following your advice.
TL;DR: I understand your point, but for fairness, you can't call it "entitlement" as the killer role isn't facing the same miserable design decisions as the (solo) survivor role constantly does. Imagine if you, as killer, were facing full P100 SWFs sending you to MacMillan, say ~75% of the time, and you cannot dodge. Would you play these matches?
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@TheWheelOfCheese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3438518#Comment_3438518
Are we looking at the same chart? The average seems pretty clearly to be around 40k, not 30k. And the average has been around that for an extended period of time both in 2022 and 2021.
I could buy the player count having plateaued, but "all time low?" I don't see that borne out in the data.
I don't really know what average you're looking at, but the list (not the chart) tells you directly the average player count per month. You can see that almost every month this year has 20% less players than last year, which was already 20% lower than 2021. The average for May 2023 was the lowest recorded for the last 3 years when I wrote the message (but it fluctuates and now it's slightly above April 2022)
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@TheWheelOfCheese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3436623#Comment_3436623
The claim "all time low" is pretty strong. Where are you obtaining that information? At least on Steam, the game is averaging just shy of 50k players. That should be plenty for matchmaking to find good matches.
I have said in the past and will continue to say that the matchmaking system simply doesn't work right, regardless of the size of the player pool. You could give DBD a million players and it would still create terrible matchups left and right.
https://steamcharts.com/app/381210
29.9k average players right now, which is the lowest recorded in the last 3 years
Is it enough players for good matchmaking? I don't think so. What matters for OP is the number of players of their skill level, not the number of DBD players total. But, these ~30k players have been basically playing at all times for the last 3 years, regardless of balance changes and events, so they are unlikely to be casual players.
As a result, DBD players most likely find matches quickly, but these matches feel way harder - on both sides - than say, in June.
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The great thing about this killer is that at least it's obvious from the start.
If you, as survivor, see that the killer is a Skull Merchant, then you know that this person is likely into weird BDSM stuff. Nobody knows what they truly have prepared for you yet, but they certainly haven't planned to play a normal video game. So in most instances, you can use your DC penalty immediatly without wasting any time and be assured that it will have been put to good use
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Basically, bored
Artistically / graphically the update looks absolutely awesome. Incredible job. But the gameplay of DBD has become so stale that I kinda expected more.
It's still the same game, even with a new killer. Everyone is super hyped by all the great stuff we've been shown in the trailers, but in practice I can than already tell that I won't see most of that in my games. What I'll see every game, is killers tunnel / camp 3-gens just as much as they do now when I play survivor - and when I play killer, survivors hide and genrush like good bots making sure to interact as little with me as possible.
SoloQ is still gonna be miserable so I'll have to play with friends, but none of my friends play anymore, so I likely will only play 2-3 games just to see the new killer and that's it. Assuming I even get matched against the new killer at all. Because in practice the game will more likely give me SM / Knight and I might leave without even noticing there was an update.
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You're not losing because of the game balance, you're losing because you are being matched against 5000+ hour players.
The player count is at an all time low. You, as a casual player, expect the game to match you against other casual players, and it seems that's why other people advise to lower your MMR. But what you're all missing, is that there aren't any other casual players to match you against. Casual players are not playing DBD right now. There's no event, no tome, no grade, and DC merchant made the rare survivors who attempted soloQ probably regret their choice and play something else.
Try to play again in June, maybe it'll be better. But sadly, I think the game is probably on its final decline, and the matches will only get sweatier over time.
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People who say: "I don't see farmers so OP must be lying" -> Yes OP is exagerating the numbers but the issue actually exists. We all live in different countries and timezones, it is very silly to think that just because you don't see happen yourself then it must be the same for everyone else in the world.
In my region, when playing late, I commonly see AFK farmers using scripts. As a result, I have stopped playing late. Then I started seeing them in evenings as well. And since winter, I haven't seen any. But I saw other people mention them.
I believe it's a combination of region, time of day and year, and probably happens more during events which need a lot of Rift fragments.
These days I barely play anymore but I still routinely see twitch streamers like Skermz getting matched against farmer killers. I'd say 1 match out of 30. Not terrible, but not great either, considering that he and 3000 viewers have to waste 15 minutes just so that someone can get their Steam achievement that nobody cares about.
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The game didn't change, you're simply being matched against much sweatier players.
The player count is half of what it was in June 2022. Who do you think is more likely to leave, a casual gamer looking for a fun match, or the hardcore player with 5000 hours and treating every match as a competition? There you have the answer: only the sweaty players remain now, the MMR algorithm matches you against them now, and you feel like getting genrushed because those are more efficient.
This actually explains why the game feels miserable for BOTH survivors AND killers.
This also explains why, counter-intuitively, nerfing solo queue is also a nerf to the killer experience.
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I think at the very least killers should be able to see who is in SWF with whom.
So many times you play "nice" because you think you're facing solos, and near the end suddenly all survivors start bodyblocking for each other, 99' gens with adrenaline and instantly open the doors etc.
As a result killers start playing sweaty every match because it's too risky to assume you're not against a 4-man SWF.
One day I played against a TTV with 3 globes so I assumed they were solos. I lost the match and thought the survivors played insanely well. Then I watched the VOD and realized that they were a 4-man SWF. Within the first 15 sec of the match I had basically all my perks called and my position transmitted 24/7 because one of them had object of obsession, while I was trying to play stealthy. This kind of advantage is not fair, and had I known they played this way, I would have played very differently. But if I had not watched the VOD, I wouldn't even had thought they were a SWF, just that I was very unlucky.
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@icedrake402 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428209#Comment_3428209
Face camping at least gives the killer some advantage in some circumstances. And if it happens to me, then I'm out the game quick and free to look for a new one. Tbagging has null reason to exist other than to taunt and mock, and it never fails to make a bad killer game a bit worse, or a good killer game a bit worse.
The pettiness makes it worse--it's saying "Even though this gives me no advantage at all, I still want to take time out of my day to make you feel bad."
And you know what? I could "just toughen up", but I shouldn't have to. I disagree that you should have to be jaded, closed-off and emotionally numb to participate in a social game, because dbaggerery is something nobody can make the effort not to be part of. How about if, no matter what role we're playing, we don't give someone else a game we wouldn't want to be on the recieving end of?
You've got it backwards. Teabagging interferes with you emotionally, but it doesn't make you lose anything in-game.
You can still play with the remaining survivors, you still get BPs based on your performance, and you've still played a normal game of DBD.
In contrast, facecamping literally prevents somebody else from playing the game, and will ensure they've wasted their time, just because the killer decided so.
Imagine if everytime a survivor teabags at the exit gates you as killer instantly got kicked out of the game with only 5k BPs.
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Survivor tbags at the gates = 0 impact on your game as killer.
Killer facecamps a survivor = that survivor is guaranteed to die, will probably get 5k BPs, and super boring game for the 3 other survivors.
Both are BM but you can't genuinely believe they are comparable.
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Matchmaking works as others have explained, for the first 30 seconds or so that you are in queue.
Above 30 seconds in queue, matchmaking panics, and gives you anything.
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Not arguing whether the mechanic is unfair but out of curiosity why is it so important for you to pip as survivor? Legit question... I'm asking because I usually reach Iri grade without even paying attention to pips, despite losing most of my games. And then my account overflows with BPs anyway. Are you trying to reach P100 or something? I would probably be tilted just as you after a game like this but that would be because of the game itself not because of de-pips.
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Ah yes please buff Trapper. The game desperately needs another 3-gen killer, with a power specifically based on anti-loop and camping.
We're all getting tired of 30+ minute games against SM. Ideally, it'd be great to alternate wtih 30-min games against Trapper, too.
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@H2H said:
I'm genuinely baffled by the idea that apparently this problem is so widespread that it needs a basekit solution, but simultaneously it's not so widespread as to be worth taking any perks to avoid it.
This is a widespread problem. If you are "baffled" by this then you are just not playing survivor. I was watching Skermz just yesterday (3000 viewers) and he DC'd to not get slugged.
https://clips.twitch.tv/SincereDiligentCiderPoooound-1aHnmOAW85fV6mnfUnbreakable does not fix anything in this situation. You burn it, what now? The game is still lost, you'll get downed, and slugged again. The only thing you have achieved by getting up is to pause the timer which makes you stay even longer in the match.
Almost every game nowadays one survivor gets slugged for several minutes. Either because the killer wants 4k or because they are angry with life. This is not fun and should be addressed. If the game is over then everyone should be able to quickly leave regardless of someone's personal issues.
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@Shroompy said:
They still exist???
Last time Ive seen one of those was I believe back in 2019 or 2020.
It's very inconsistent, probably mostly a low MMR thing, but when it happens it's super annoying.
Most notably, Aaron got several AFK killers during the hardcore survivor series. It was enough of a problem that he had to change the ruleset to not count these matches:
https://youtu.be/RKwkdsgINcc?t=205 -
I love it. These kind of interactions with the killer usually lead to the most fun games. But that you're getting reported for it is not surprising, most players nowadays have forgotten what games are for and behave like literal AIs. Their only goal is to accumulate some points on a virtual profile, do their challenges, farm "achievements". Then they blame you for wasting their time... not realizing that's the point of playing video games.
Anyway. If I face you with a SWF, we'll open the chest. I guarantee it. Nobody will leave until that chest gets opened.
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@GannTM said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3423763#Comment_3423763
If Artist is so much easier than Blight and is just as strong, why is she so rare when Blight isn’t?
Because most players use add-ons. I said she's stronger than Blight without add-ons which is the context OP set for his tier list.
With add-ons, Blight and Spirit are stronger than Artist, and barely harder to play.
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@ays12151 said:
Bubba Top 6 worst Killers in the game without addons? xDDDDDDDDD bruh
Even without addons he can outplay 90% of players on the pallets & loops. But none understand how to play him
With practice, any killer can outplay 90% of players on pallets & loops, that's not the point
The tier list is ranked by "how difficult the killers are to use" according to OP himself. Bubba is objectively a much more difficult killer to learn than most others in the list.
Put an average Bubba player against average survivors on Autohaven, without add-ons, they'll do much worse than killers like Myers and Clown.
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Some of the placements make me very confused. Artist is a very strong killer without add-ons, and easier to play than Blight. She should be S-tier according to your criteria. I wonder what has happened to you that lead you to put her in B-tier, personally I hardly ever lose when playing her.
Blight without add-ons is not that great imo. I'd say B-tier.
Bubba without add-ons practically has no chase power and so should be rated as bad as Trapper. His chainsaw also takes time to learn as you need to practice almost every single map tile in the game to loop it tight without crashing. Definitely one of the most punishing killers. I'd say it's the same for Billy although I haven't played him that much. Both should be in the lowest tier.
The rest of the killers placements look surprisingly accurate.
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"Increasing MMR to get better teammates" is a myth, even top survivor streamers get crappy teammates all the time. Here's an example with Otz solo queue games:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3CJ7_f9Ed4In several clips, he loops the killer for 3 minutes and not a single gen gets done.
That was 1 year ago, since then the game has become more killer-sided.
Good luck with solo queue as a casual player when even 5k+ hour players can't deal with it anymore
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The add-ons need a nerf but Blight is one of the last killers responsible for "ruining the game"...
I'd gladly trade my SM/Knight games for your Blight games any day of the week
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3417048#Comment_3417048
And if it takes 20 seconds for the killer to hit you in chase the difference between 18 and 24 seconds suddenly is significant.
If you add random numbers you can always invent scenarios where nerfs don't matter.
If a gen at 25% is affected by ruin and isn't touched for a minute and half then the ruin nerf also is insignificant
Most people also can't look into the future. There are killers you can face who will be able to go from you being save on a gen to getting hit in chase in less then 24 seconds. And it's more likely then in 16 seconds
Fact is that there is 8 more seconds that risk the syringe being a addon that does nothing. That's 50% more then before. Doesn't mean it's weak but there is no denying it's weaker
It's slightly weaker than pre-patch, while other add-ons are much weaker than pre-patch. So it is comparatively stronger than other add-ons now.
Before, it saved you 16 seconds of time. Now, it saves 24 seconds. Veteran players have stockpiles of these add-ons, expect to see them used 24/7 at high MMR.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3416528#Comment_3416528
That's 8 second more risk that the killer can find and down you before the syringe did it's job. I'd hardly call that irrelevant.
With that logic a syringe taking 90 seconds to heal you would also be a irrelevant nerf cause you can do something else in the meantime. I don't think it would see much play if it was nerfed like that
Effects are not a linear function of the cause at all. If it takes 30 sec for the killer to hit you in chase, then it doesn't matter whether the addon heals you after 18 or 24 sec, in both cases, you'll be healed mid-chase, and the nerf is "irrelevant" (literally no impact - it didn't impact the course of the game at all). I don't know what is the average chase time, but from practice, I can tell you I used the new syringe 15-20 games and got hit 0 times, so it is way higher than 24 sec.
Now if the addon was nerfed to 30-40 sec then it would suddenly become a significant nerf. As said, because the effects are not linear.
And don't forget, you are not forced to use the add-on in chase. You can use it while on a gen and it wll save you 24 seconds that you would normally spend healing, ie. it saves about as much as a green toolbox + BNP, just for ONE ADDON.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3416138#Comment_3416138
Can't equip them every game otherwise you run out of them eventually. I could run them personally like 200 games but what after that? I don't see reason why average player could not use them as often in their games. They just run out of them sooner if they don't have good supply. And the healing speed was nerfed from syringe so it takes lot longer so it's lot harder to heal succesfully mid chase.
Veterans have stockpiles of them because with previous Prestige system it used to be easier to acquire these add-ons.
And it is extremely poor design to have an add-on that carries survivors but to still consider it balanced just because they can only play with it for half of the games.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
It was necessary. Self-healing had been out of control for a long time and being able to self-heal at normal speed was too efficient and too easy. Medkits are more balanced now.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3416138#Comment_3416138
They were nerfed, Styptics were reduced from 8 seconds to 5 seconds and Syringes are slower because the self-heal debuff from the medkit itself affects it.
Both nerfs are paper nerfs that show a lack of understanding of what makes these add-ons strong, they change the number that is written in the text box, but will do very little in practice.
The Syringe is not slower - even though the description says a number went from 16 to 24 sec, that number is not the healing speed. In practice this addon allows you to heal in 1 sec with 1 charge. But this heal is now delayed by 24 sec instead of 16 sec, which is not a huge downside, as it is not very hard to last for 24 sec once per game, even in chase. I've played ~20 matches with Syringe since the patch dropped and I never got hit during the 24 sec, although it came very close a few times, I was always healed mid-chase just a few sec before the killer hit me.
Styptic nerf has the same problem. In practice, it does not matter whether it's 5 or 8 seconds. Even if the killer sees you using it, 5 sec is still enough time to reach another pallet. Imagine if old dead hard lasted 5 seconds.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3416138#Comment_3416138
Syringe used to heal a dying survivor to healthy in half a second. Styptic heal an injured to healthy in half a second. So yes, they were nerfed once.
Syringe now self healing without do the healing action, except the self healing from 16sec to 24sec, which also affect Syringe that takes 24sec to auto heal, not 16sec. So yes, its nerfed twice.
Syringe taking 24 sec instead of 16 sec is irrelevant as you can do something else in the meantime, so you're not losing any efficiency. Meanwhile all medkits have had their efficiency nerfed by 50%. So comparatively, the syringe is now 1.5x more interesting than before. BHVR thought "Let's multiply all the numbers in the description by 1.5x and call it a day", unlucky that's not how math works.
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The best part is that the 2 things that made medkits actually busted aka. Syringe and Styptic, were NOT nerfed and are now comparatively even stronger than the rest. It is truly astonishing how half the patches manage to "fix" the things that aren't broken and leave the actual problematic stuff unaddressed. Average survivors are going to get very hurt by this nerf while those who know what they're doing will equip these addons 24/7.
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Sounds like a nice idea and I can't think of any downside. Looking forward to see this implemented in 2035
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@Dbdfan398 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3414360#Comment_3414360
Ok I get it, you're better than me.
Thanks for the advice, very helpful post. Could have gotten the same thing by not posting.
Like whats the actual point of this post? Its basically a longer version of git gud. No builds you use, or anything like that, just 4 sentences of you bragging how much better you are than me and because you arent running into these issues, I shouldnt be?
This is the problem with not seeing our MMR numbers, and the flaw of MMR itself. For all we know I am higher MMR ( unlikely but not the point ) and going against better survivors.
But because this isnt starcraft and we cant see our ranks, thats pointless.
This isnt a thing thats happened as a streak or a few bad games. Gens were flying for me before the nerf to gen regression, and now its worse.
If you don't win the vast majority of your games, then you are very likely not high MMR.
As someone said, you are approaching the game the wrong way: rather than trying to find the best build to win without sweating, just try to sweat less and not go for 4k but for hooks. There is ZERO reason trying to win in this game especially as killer, most survivors you'll face will just hate you for it. The only reason to try to win is if you want to go for streak to prove a point or because you're a big streamer. Otherwise winning is basically just matchmaking dependent. Either you get a solo queue team and you win by default, or you get a sweaty SWF and it's 50/50 depending on killer and map.
Unfortunately going for 12 hooks will probably lead to you losing a lot, and honestly you'll still probably get insulted by 90% of survivors anyway. But playing this way I get usually more BPs and occasionally a "thank you" message from survivors.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411929#Comment_3411929
It's like you take everything people say in slightly change it your mean then start typing.
A 1v1 gives all the advantages to the survivor in chase and kaz set his own time, the point wasn't about the toxicity just an added fact. Were talking about chase here, that's the point.
I specifically mentioned vs blight in chase on the other point.
That a survivor sets his own time, and does not beat it, does not mean much about his skill. Only about his ego. Kaz could be the best survivor in the world and believe he's going to last 5 minutes, he will lose even against me.
Put Kaz 1v1 against Lilith Omen. Then put pub loopers against him in the same conditions. Then I believe Kaz will on average last longer. It's "on average", depending on RNG the pub loopers could occasionally get a higher time, so if you're comparing Kaz against 100 random loopers you have seen in public matches, then statistically you must have seen several loopers last longer than him, but that's due to RNG, not skill.
PS: I did not "change the meaning" I replied to what you wrote. I'm not supposed to know what you mean, just what you wrote. You only said it was a 1v1 with subs on the line, without linking a single VOD.