Ryuhi
Ryuhi
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For the most part, no. The vast majority of content is available without paying, and you can be viable with combinations of free-only content on either side.
That said, it knows exactly what its doing when it takes content that is hard meta and locks it to paid only DLCs. Eruption and Call of Brine are a current example, BBQ and DS were previous ones. BBQ was notoriously only in the shrine of secrets a handful of times ever, and was likely an extremely high number of sales for leatherface. It wasn't an accident, which is the kind of situation that causes the P2W discussion to come up. It technically isn't as it is not required to be viable to compete in general, but it sure as hell is mandatory in the sense that tools that make other characters (or even perks via synergy) viable. This ebbs and flows on both the survivor and killer side with each rebalance but again, its not an accident.
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@Jallybwan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3249365#Comment_3249365
That's what I'm saying! I'm more confused than anything else. Stealth doesn't suffer at all from increased FOV, but it's a direct buff to flashlights (which I'm sure many would agree could use a buff after last patch). It's a win-win for everyone.
Most people don't want win/win with this game, they only want win for them lose for their opponent. The game has been focused around advantage stacking for so long a lot of people probably don't even realize when they do it.
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3249129#Comment_3249129
I don't see the need to support lower levels of FoV if you introduce higher levels of FoV, since, as far as I'm aware, there are no accessibility concerns for a low FoV. It seems that people get motion sickness from a smaller FoV as well.
you are not aware correctly, then. As already stated, FoV depends on multiple factors including viewing size and distance, it is actually generally preferable for it to be lower on consoles due to being more likely to be sitting further away, for example.
Since people are actually having discussion on the topic, might as well repost the game design explanation of why different FoVs matter, and their impact relative to multiplatform support:
https://youtu.be/blZUao2jTGA@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3249056#Comment_3249056
And as we know, minorities should be stepped on, marginalized, and ignored, right?
Good talk.
You've been doing nothing but step on people who suffer from FoV related motion sickness and framing them as just killers wanting another advantage this whole topic. Please take your own criticism.
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@Jallybwan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3248353#Comment_3248353
Would you be willing to explain some of that stuff, actually? Mostly the physiology part. As I understand it:
1) Lower FOVs give your brain less information to process, which can "weird it out" so to speak.
2) Lower FOVs force you to move your camera more (good example here), which would definitely contribute to motion sickness for more sensitive people.
Motion sickness through things like FoV is caused by your inner ear being miscalibrated on whether you are moving or not, and any uncanny valley sensations that confuse it in the process. A lot of it has to do with your primary and periphery vision, as one says you are moving and the other says you are sitting still. Thats part of why its not a "higher = gooder" situation, as it depends on how your view calibrates to everything you are seeing including outside the screen.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3248353#Comment_3248353
I said exactly this about Nurse on the previous page.
And I agree that it absolutely needs to be said, just that the responses and ignorance are depressingly predictable, just like in pretty much every accessibility discussion, including previous versions of the exact same ones. Just a friendly warning basically.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3248344#Comment_3248344
Because it's simply not worth taking up a perk slot. I never see Shadowborn run personally at all, and I would never use it, because it doesn't give you any advantage. Evidenced by the fact that stretched res (which does the same for first person view as an increased FoV) didn't offer any advantage to the killer.
Try working out if the killer has Shadowborn based on the angle of their red stain. You can't. It's negligible. But in terms of ease of playing, in terms of quality of life, it would make the game feel much better.
Technically stretched res did have advantages for killer, but only very specific cases and only due to its change to the vertical and not horizontal view. Nurses could use it to be able to see a bit better while fatigued due to it having more viewing potential at the top of the screen, same with any other camera locks that force the camera downward like billy's chainsaw. Nowhere near the same thing, but it was more than nothing.
That said, don't bother with the arguments. People thinking that higher FoV means no stealth don't even understand how FoV works, its relation to human FoV (roughly 135 degrees when including peripheral,) the physiology of why FoV issues cause motion sickness, or even simple concepts like not every player uses the same display size/distance. They're ignorant at best, disingenuous at worst. You can explain it all day but if they disagree they'll be right back in the next topic spewing the same misinformation.
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@Jallybwan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3248107#Comment_3248107
It was on the survivor end because of the increased vertical FOV, which let you reveal Ghostface from behind cover, see killers over walls you wouldn't normally be able to, etc. I'm talking specifically an option to increase horizontal FOV as killer, which doesn't let you see around things you can't normally see around like it does for survivor. Unless you crank it to something ridiculous like 270 degrees, which I'm pretty sure DBD's engine wouldn't even allow. I'd be fine capping it at 105 or something.
I've made multiple attempts at actually informing people about how FoV works, but they will always come up with whatever misconception they feel like suits their argument. Its not worth the effort to talk to anyone but the devs directly about, honestly.
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maybe try killer then?
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@Barbarossa2020 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244809#Comment_3244809
Solo's could use the free discord and that would fix the communication issue, will solo play suddenly become better? Nope.
Again streamers and swfs could do all that on KYF, give bp for it and bang same game, you get to play with your friends, and you don't impact solo queue.
Why are you conflating my argument? I literally already stated:
the core problem with solo queue is having to leave a significant portion of your agency in the hands of completely unknown players, which that type of information does nothing to improve.You're just trying to find things to argue with. I honestly have no idea what you're trying to convey with that kyf comment. If KYF gave BP people would just use it to farm nonstop instead of actually putting up with most of the unbalanced garbage in the game as much as they do, and the devs are well aware of how bad an idea it is to split their queues even regarding just opting in regarding SWF at all.
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@Barbarossa2020 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244783#Comment_3244783
Where do you draw the line, we cant have any sense of balance by bringing in more variables. Have a hardcore swf opt in so you get a handicap but more rewards?
Oh were a casual swf in it for the memes but we still want to have the advantage but no penalty. You can't just have your cake all the time.
At the end of the day you know who suffers the most from swfs? Solo's, they can't have a nice boil over, because some swf wants to sit upstairs in rpd using the perk to the extreme, so now solo players who use it as intended get penalised.
You're focusing on the worst case and applying it to all cases, instead of addressing just the worst case. For every group that was abusing boil over or healing faster than the killer could swing in the boon PTB, there are streamers who are doing a collab with their friends and reading chat while on gens. You have to "draw the line" by tackling what actual advantages SWF provides over solos in how they can and are abused, the oversights that such a system allows to be exploited. As was posited in the previous posts, that isn't just the ability to communicate in general.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244783#Comment_3244783
"Because there is a difference between having information visually accessible on demand vs having to keep calling out back and forth, let alone the discordance that gets caused by multiple people trying to convey multiple pieces of information at the same time. Did that honestly need explaining?"
If the SWF is that uncoordinated that they are talking over each other constantly, they are not really a problem, lol. Whenever someone mentions communication they always refer to some tournament squads who divide the Map into Tiles and give precise callouts, while in reality, nobody plays like that.
Icons would do nothing for SWFs. Because you can easily coordinate as SWF if someone is on a Gen or who is going for a Unhook as an example.
And it would not bring Solos to SWF-Level either, because the main strength of SWF is filtering out bad players. Even with Icons you can have 1 person on the Hook, 1 in chase (visualized by an Icon), 1 on a Gen (visualized by an Icon) and would still have the Meg self-care in a Corner, even if she knows that nobody is going for the Unhook.
You can feel free to agree to disagree without being so disingenuous. I never even claimed it would bring solos to swf level, only said that style of approach generally gives buffs to swfs and solos without separating the two. You can feel free to disagree with the degree of value present but to call it non-existent is just pointless arguing. My point once again is that you don't need to be spoonfed that information when good players can already get it fairly accurately through deductive reasoning.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244614#Comment_3244614
You failed to explain how added information which SWF-Teams already have would be a buff to them. Let alone that communication is not even the main strength of SWFs.
Because there is a difference between having information visually accessible on demand vs having to keep calling out back and forth, let alone the discordance that gets caused by multiple people trying to convey multiple pieces of information at the same time. Did that honestly need explaining?
@Barbarossa2020 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244614#Comment_3244614
My option for that would be give swfs the solo buffs, but if you sign up as a duo your heal,repair/cleanse speed is slowed by "x%" more % for a trio and a quad.
But why should i penalised for playing with my friends, because you and your friends mess with the games balance.
Which becomes a nerf to casual SWFs, who are the ones who don't need any nerfs and are usually just friends messing around as opposed to sweat team 6. They're the closest to legimitate usage of SWF in the game, and punishing them unfairly is a bad move. You need to focus on the potential of swfs in addressing them, not their average use. There are plenty of solo players who outperform casual SWFs by a landslide, while simultaneously taking advantage of far more oversights in the game's design.
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@JustWhimsical said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244609#Comment_3244609
Yeah, but adding more hud options would be a significant step for the people who play normally. I doubt that any fix whatsoever would make people trolling or ruining matches stop; I can't even think of any way or feature to make it happen, maybe adding a kick system where a survivor can kick out a survivor if they see them trolling and replace the person with a bot. Still, even then, that seems too much, as I can see a swf team abusing a feature like that. Though dc bots would be amazing honestly, like idc if it's a dumb bot, any bots would be great. :)
(Plus it would be funny seeing threads of people saying that after a bunch of people dced the bots beat them up, that would be hilarious.)
Extra free information would also be yet another buff for SWF, which is what people never seem to understand. Every buff that "closes the gap between solo and swf" also buffs said swf, and the approach is always to then "fix killer later" when said information has a disproportionate effect on half of them. The best part is that it will do nothing to improve the actions of bad players, as kindred has proven multiple times over.
SWF isn't some hive mind, in order to convey information people need to communicate. The more info they get for free without needing to communicate multiple things simultaneously, they're still getting buffed as well. Not only that, but the core problem with solo queue is having to leave a significant portion of your agency in the hands of completely unknown players, which that type of information does nothing to improve. You can't make anyone play the way you want, and you can already deduce most of that information without needing to be spoonfed it.
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The biggest improvement solo queue needs is for survivors to stop giving up the second things don't go their way, thus ruining the game for their other 3 teammates. You can't patch out entitlement.
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@Sharpefern said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3243566#Comment_3243566
Yeah, like how survivors will also shine their flashlight no necessarily to blind you but attract your attention. Survivors pulling agro from more vulnerable survivors is a key component of the game. Like the only thing I can see them doing that would allow for additional accessibility with sound is adding an optional spectogram, however this is just going to tell you how loud something is supposed to be and I dont really see it being useful for anything other than terror radius and loud noise notifications because of all the ambient noise.
I like how you bring up flashlights but completely ignore how important hearing is while blinded by them. At least try to be sensible on accessibility issues or stay out of them entirely please. Just because you can't think of simple concepts like stereo based indicators that trigger on footstep sound emitters doesn't mean its not an issue, nor that it can't be solved similarly to a heartbeat indicator with fluctuations that coincide with the distance of the TR.
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@Sharpefern said:
An example of the accessibility for killers with notification similar to the terror radius is that the loud noise notification give a visual cue and arrow, which they have.
Oh you must mean the same notifications that people spam to make it harder to hear when their friend is in chase?
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@Bardon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3242109#Comment_3242109
Because not everyone are ######### like the survivors you described?
Seriously though, agree totally with the idea that survivors should get locked at about 15 seconds so the killer can react to last-minute shenanigans.
why 15? Killers can't change in the lobby at all, only their perks and addons. If I'm playing hag and 4 flashlights appear im not scrambling to switchi in franklins and lightborne, im just straight up dodging the lobby if i can't switch to a killer who would actually have a power in that match. And even on the ones who would be fine in that case, you'd be forcing them to keep one of their 3 loadouts as a specific counter to said items. One for medkits and one for flashlights, now the entire point of saving louadouts becomes pointless since you only get one actual slot.
There's no reason for it not to be 30. that gives plenty of time to adjust items in lobby and you can spend forever getting set up before reaching the lobby in the first place. The only reactive part is to what other survivors are carrying as well.
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@Sharpefern said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3243405#Comment_3243405
Well then I guess you just get bitterness
You are trying extremely hard to dodge the idea that the killer role is denied any accessability option when the devs didnt even realize survivors were using spine chill as one until there were complaints from their idea to remove that application. It shouldn't even be tied to a perk for either side, but you refuse to admit that the killer role does not even have a proper bandaid perk and keep trying to come up with compensations that have nothing to do with why they would need assistance via poor hearing. Killers can't run 20 perks just because they have APD, are partially/fully deaf, have tinnitus, or just have poor hearing in general.
Also footsteps are a universal sound that become important the second LoS is broken in a chase, they're not as niche as ghostface's cloak or wraith's snarling. They're needed in every single chase if survivors aren't just running in a straight line, and things like the mandatory chase music, extremely loud chainsaws, extremely loud constant whispering, and so on purposely mask them even further. Again, you either don't understand or you're being purposely selective about an accessibility issue.
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@Sharpefern said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3243191#Comment_3243191
The survivors have it for information that they are supposed to have anyway. The closest thing to a terror radius for killer is scratch marks. which they have a perk to be able to see better. The killer also has perks to remove their terror radius.
The only other aspect that I could see with regards to sound is surveillance giving an indication when its active either by hearing gen noises or having regression occur or stop. You dont need a gauge because you can see the gens auras but I suppose you could do that as well. But I dont think this would satisfy people. I think certain killers just don't like the perk.
With regards to all of the smaller sounds such as footsteps and breathing etc. Neither side has a perk for this.
Being able to hear things like footsteps is extremely important to killer and pretending its not is either biased or ignorant, as it is absolutely as important as survivors hearing the terror radius. Same with gen progress, interactions with half the killer's powers, even just totems/lockers/chests/etc. The role is near unplayable if you have any type of hearing issues, and thats assuming the sound itself is even working properly. And since there are multiple design choices that obfuscate it on purpose, its even worse.
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@Sharpefern said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3243151#Comment_3243151
Killers do have a perk that will tell them when a survivor is working on a gen, its called surveillance, and you don't even need to be close to it. But I will give you that if there are gen repair sounds that a killer would hear I think surveillance should light up, since it lets you hear gen repair sounds 8 feet further. This would actually be a good accessibility change.
As for the grunts of pain and breathing, not the same as spine chill does not change based on footsteps lullabies or grunts from killers. Undetectable still has 0 change. But if you want a perk that lights up when you are near survivors try whispers.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3243154#Comment_3243154
It has 3 different layers sections but the volume is different depending on how close it is.
I think their point is that sound is extremely inaccessable for the killer side, especially since it doesn't even work properly half the time due to bhvr not understanding how sound emitters work in unreal engine and constantly having to fight with blaring chase music and other forced auditory obfuscation. Its one of the main reasons I personally can't play the role, my hearing is very poor and its extremely unforgiving for how important it is.
Its great that they left a makeshift option for survivors who have difficulties hearing, but they really need to at least attempt parity regarding accessibility and they need to go full ass instead of half ass for it regarding both sides. As it stands on places like the artist's map the sound issue gets even worse by design.
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No problem, a lot of killers benefit from playing as them in order to learn how to counter their abilities, and the artist is certainly a knowledge check in a lot of ways. Glad its been working out better :)
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@Kosturko92 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3242345#Comment_3242345
I suppose you are right which leads us to a deeper problem:
A) Getting high mmr with a survivor feels like a reward
B) Getting high mmr with a killer feels like punishment
That is all because game is so survivor favored in high mmr, it is unplayable most of the time. If they nerf survivors and buff killers, solo quee and low mmr will struggle even more ( and they are already weak ).
So what is the solution then ?
The post does look im the only killer having this issue, but i am certainly not. Others pretty much just accepted the fact that they are going to lose most matches. I recently saw a twitch streamer who had 15k hours on killers all together having only 1 hook 4 matches in a row.
So what is the solution then ?Better sanity checks. They need to get better about preventing various aspects of the game from being so exploitable by people with the game knowledge to do so. The lack of checks and balances for extremes is a major part of why the game shifts so out of control. They're just absolutely terrible at playtesting the extreme cases in their own game, and by the time the community does it for them, it's too late to fix.
Clarification edit: This isn't even specifically about survivors being OP or anything like that, the same applies to many killer addons and power/perk synergies as well. The unfortunate thing is that the OP things on both sides create an actual arms race regarding maximizing your advantage while diminishing your opponent's agency, which is terrible balance design.
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3242267#Comment_3242267
If items are a “temporary 5th perk slot”, then what are add-ons for killer - which don’t expire until the match ends (outside of a few exceptions)?
Items can be gained mid match, traded between players, dropped in match, and arent even consumed unless left behind (or when certain addons use them.) Its a bit of a false equivalence to a consistently consumable part of a loadout that requires bloodweb grinding as the only method of replenishment. Thats before getting into comparitive impact, like being able to self heal (once or multiple times) compared to how absolutely unviable most addons actually are for a lot of killers (which of course shifts when comparing specific items vs specific addons.)
I get their point, that items are basically a temporary means of being able to surpass the limitations of playing without having them. Addons by comparison are more like "permanent" 5th perk slot that is both a forced consumable and wildly varying in quality/availability.
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To punish killers for playing well, and punish survivors for playing poorly. It makes weaker survivors unable to climb and stronger killers need to sweat constantly or take more L's. The game just isn't balanced for such a system, especially regarding the pidgeonholed metrics it uses.
On the bright side, at least strong survivors and weak killers kinda flourish.
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@Katzengott said:
The real reason we don't have a feature like that might be crossplay. Sure they can track if someone on Steam is playing with a friend on Steam. But when it comes to consoles? I don't see this. Very hard to track towards all plattforms. And would need Microsofts and Sonys permission aswell i asume.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but they made the ingame party system specifically for this reason. All they need to do is use some kind of bracket or color coded icon marking in post game lobbies showing when people were partied up with each other. It might seem like a useless gesture to have something like this postgame, but anything that can reduce paranoia in this game is welcome imo, especially with the cheating epidemic going as long as it has.
@JPLongstreet said:
I don't have a problem with seeing this info after the trial, but I can see a reason why they won't show it.
Many "serious" killers keep track of survs they wish to avoid for one reason or another. Providing direct proof of SWF members will get those survs onto the black books of many killers, and the dodging increases.
Lobby dodging already borks up the matchmaking badly, we need no more of it.
If you see the same names paired in multiple lobbies, it kinda already gives you that info anyway. Steam users can just keep changing their names as it is, and anonymous mode options have kinda-sorta started rolling out. If anything I think most would want a feature like this just so that they can stop second guessing why their stealth killer seemed to have a harder time finding survivors than they did being found, trapper wondering why every trap got disarmed the second they were in chase, and so on. Having an answer that comms broke your core gameplay mechanics is more assuring in that it is at least a reasonable explanation.
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@Nos37 said:
Every year, 12+ new Survivor & Killer perks are added. Add the fact that BHVR uses perks as band-aids for balance issues.
Now, how many new perk slots do we get each year? Zero.
4 perk slots.
This is a big part of it honestly, The game needs a lot of core issues fixed properly instead of throwing perks at them and calling it a day. Builds are far too limiting and the meta becomes too unforgiving in a lot of cases.
That said, its also a game that both embraces and actively encourages stacking as many advantages in your favor as possible, due to its complete lack of proper sanity checking. It's no wonder people want things for free when they're essentially conditioned to want more advantages than they have perk slots.
The game desperately needs a project health to fix these issues. If they want more varied gameplay they need to make it more viable, both in playstyles and in loadouts. The first few minutes often decides entire matches, and loadouts nearly decide them before that.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3240047#Comment_3240047
Okay, so no flashlights in the lobby, no need to bring Lightborn.
10 9 8 7
6 4 FLASHLIGHTS APPEAR.
5 Sorry, you're locked in you can't change to Lightborn!
This is the problem I am talking about. If the survivors are worried about Lightborn or Franklin's, they will do this. So, that's my point, what is the point of even showing the killer what items the survivors are bringing if they can just swap at the very last second and everyone gets locked in?
why not lock survivors from swapping then? the entire countdown system is pretty awful in general, and those types of changes should have been implimented when they stopped killers from being able to switch in lobby way back when. There isn't really any excuse to let survivors make such drastic changes so late during "prep time," especially since the killer equivalent was removed. Just make it so that items/characters cant be swapped once the timer reaches 30 seconds or something.
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@Edilibs said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3241142#Comment_3241142
People honestly want Kindred as base? Lol wow.....People please stop it! STOP!!!
The majority of the userbase doesn't understand how much information it actually gives via deductive reasoning, thats why so many underrate it. It's like Windows and Empathy in that they're only recently getting people's attention when they understand the metadata they provide. They're too busy stacking second chance perks to learn how to get value and would rather beg for it to be basekit instead.
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@sulaiman said:
Even if i run kindred, there are either 2 survivors coming at me anyway, each one trying to outrun the other, or noone comes and they just hide somewhere. ITs just not worth running for me.
Then run it so that you can be the smart one while others are on the hook, and use that information to supplement your game sense. They purposely buffed the perk for that specific reason.
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Optimization issues? The game's performance getting worse with each update?
Hope you don't mind constantly having streaming or recording software ready to go at a moments notice in case you run into one of the many cheaters in the game. They don't take any resources either at run time or in storage space so it shouldn't be any type of burden at all! :)
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3240719#Comment_3240719
Not really, remember the GPU on the PS4 is a downgraded version of the AMD HD 7870 which came out in 2012. So the fact it can run it at all with acceptable frame rates is pretty impressive tbh
When making a game as a service like DBD, you absolutely have to keep support for the machines it was made on. Part of the agreement in such a model is that people will not suddenly become unable to play the game they have invested literal years into over being left behind, you can raise the upper cap but the lower cap needs to be consistent for as long as possible. DBD leaves people behind constantly because they refuse to put in the effort to optimize their code and the logic ends up eating as much resources as the graphics do.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3240104#Comment_3240104
At least Pop gives you regression that doesn't get cleansed in the first 30 seconds because survivors still spawn 2 feet away from hex totems for some reason.
And yet you have 45 seconds to find a gen that its actually worth using on, with diminishing returns depending on how far along it is(n't). If they want to keep it the way it works now, it needs to at least not require extra perks to even know which gen it should be used on. They were afraid it would be too oppressive with the variably increased gen time, but it is considerably weaker across the board on any gen that isnt just about done. Even if they didn't want to revert it to the flat 25%, it still got overnerfed pretty hard and could certainly use some help.
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Definitely both agree and disagree with a lot of his points, but mostly because of his own admissions that center around a disproportionate impact from factors like maps, items, and strategies. It sounds weird to hear that Wraith is in a good spot, until you realize that most of his problems are problem with the game he is in more than his kit itself. Very interesting perspective in a lot of regards, but I definitely feel more nuance is needed for a lot of his anti-camping stances: They're absolutely correct in regards to how bad they can be exploited, but equal consideration is needed on how survivors could exploit disabling powers in ways he presented. I understand that those types of ideas were more darts on a dartboard in nature though, and that his concern is more with the sanity checks involved than anything. Good insight for a lot of killers like usual.
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@bobateo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3237248#Comment_3237248
I don't think it's quite that clear cut though. Yes, in a 'perfect' circumstance (all the survs have healed and are now out of the area) the Killer may have to abandon all other pressure to go snuff a totem. But the actual is play more Killer downs surv, hooks surv, this pulls someone off a gen to unhook, one or both go to boon to heal (generally not optimal on the latter, but I see it all the time), Killer either pressures them or is in the process of a chase with a 3rd surv, now only 1 is on a gen. If one goes to heal, it's now an easy down, or at the very least they're wasting time traveling, healing and traveling back and even in a dead area (meaning no gens to pressure ), then the Killer can if downed: choose to hook them again, granting another hook stage (getting them closer to a 3v1) or leave them to force someone to go pick up. If both go, then there's the potential for an easy down/hook and possibly getting a hit on uninjured surv. Or the Killer can choose to let them heal across the map in a dead zone and apply pressure to the other two survs, bringing another off the gen and potentially running across the map to try to get that sweet, sweet heal or also now on a hook.
And while time may be relative, one thing is pretty certain: the longer the game continues, the more it is to likely tilt into the Killer's favor because they're building more and more pressure while gens remain slow or static and surv resources such as items and pallets are used up.
A couple of other things are variables are that there's a decent change that a boon in a 'dead' area is also an area lacking pallets either because they've already been used (or will be used up quickly as survs run there to heal more than once) or just weren't there to begin with, those areas are typically further away from the gens that survs are trying to get completed (relative to map size oc), and most survs won't run halfway across the map to get a solo heal when they can do it with a teammate that unhooked them just as fast, if not faster because of travel time. A boon out in the middle of nowhere that no one will travel to becomes a wasted effort.
When you do add in aura reading perks and slow down perks, the effectiveness of COH further diminishes. Could the solo heal speed stand to be nerfed down some? Most likely, it does seem too fast to me, but I do wonder if that is in part due to the prevalence of Sloppy and whatever the new-ish perk is that can decrease all healing progress rather quickly if the heal isn't finished. But at the end of the day, if survs are constantly abandoning gens to go heal in some far flung corner of the map, I still think that gives a not insignificant amount of pressure to the Killer.
All that said, the prolonged war of attrition that COH can create (yes, it can slow down Killer hook progress, but it also slows down gen progress) is 'meh' in my opinion. Sometimes the games are good - hard fought on both sides - and sometimes I wish I didn't run empathy as much as I do because I want to groan every time I see a surv get slapped and immediately run off to heal as soon as the Killer's attention is somewhere else or as soon as they get pulled off a hook.
I disagree, but I think its more because you're focusing on how poorly the perk can be used and singling out the factors that can specifically minimize its impact. My argument was never about its average effectiveness, but rather how it can and is exploited to take advantage of (and create) lose/lose situations. Agree to disagree I guess.
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@bobateo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236981#Comment_3236981
In fairness, once someone is semi-familiar with the map layouts, they don't have to run SM or Detective's Hunch as often to find totems. But I agree that people way under estimate how much time boons keep survs off of gens. Not only do they have to be set up, but then you have to get back to them anytime a heal is needed, or reset into another location to heal. With the current gen slow downs, it's often more than enough time for a gen to lose a lot or all of its progress.
Its not that people undervalue the time wasted, its that the time itself is relative to the killer's time due to the potential of 4 vs 1, or even just the events that are occuring simultaneously. Time is extremely relative in this game, and if a survivor does a gen and then boons the totem next to it after, they have created a map pressure spot with a very high reward for 3 other people which the killer has to waste time abandoning their own pressure to deal with, at a sliding scale based on those circumstantial factors. It adds up massively and since CoH removes the second survivor requirement to healing with only 1/4 needing to even take the perk, its value in said calculation is extremely lopsided when used properly.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3237128#Comment_3237128
Ok but this goes back to the usual question. If survivors get weaker because SWF is too strong, where does that leave solo survivor again?
I play solo so I am coming at it from that angle. For me it's simply frustrating when a killer can do the bare minimum because they got a down early (depending on the time of the day it is almost guaranteed I get at least one person who is playing a beginner survivor with no prestige) by coming across or intentionally go after (I can't really know) the baby. Ok that's fair, but if they decide to camp them it is even more frustrating. Because in solo you cannot co-ordinate that and especially at the start if no one has Kindred. And say I leave my gen to go save. Ok now I just wasted time and the whole counter of "just do gens" came crumbling down. What if another person came for the save? Now two people aren't doing gens.
Say I try to unhook, killer hits me and then I unhook anyway so we trade. Well now no one guarantess me I will play the game first of all and second of all, the killer has just skipped the part where he is weakest at, which is chasing by playing this way and getting away with 1K most of the time guaranteed and maybe even more by doing the bare meanimum. It seems to me it's the equivalent of that teammate who hides all game and somehow escapes at the end, by finding hatch. Both are the bare minimum.
Ok so what about the killers who know this is the efficient play, either camping or tunneling (camping isn't always efficient if you wanna win, but against solo it is a pretty strong strategy). How are they prepared then to face against stronger survivors if they never had to develop their other skills and game sense? I wasn't playing when old Dead Hard was around, I joined just around the time that patch which nerfed it dropped. When I read posts in those forums and on reddit people claim old DH boosted survivors, can't the same be said for Killers camping then? Why is one considered unhealthy and the other just a strategy?
I'm not against it being a thing, it's that currently it's very low effort from the Killer's side especially if that's the playstyle they are going intentionally. Whenever I come across new killers, that's their instinct as well, it's intuitive. Sometimes they do get panicky though if they hear gens popping. I just find it unfair and silly, that as a survivor to survive you need to have a number of skills developed to survive, looping, be able to do gens, not 3-genning yourself, know how to counter killers. But killer you can just catch the weakest and skip looping or even gen pressure and still come out with 3k or more, which again is more common in solo and it thrives because of the lack of co-ordination.
I agree that maybe 3 remaining survivors or 2 should not be so power-creeped, but I dunno how that would get fixed and how weakening 4 survivors would affect solo.
Sorry for my rant, I just don't think under any circumstances a killer under 100 hours should be able to beat survivors who have collectively 500h or more etc. But the reality of the situation is that one weak link for survivors is more often than not a death sentence.
I think you entirely missed the point of my observation as well as my approach to resolving it. It would actually benefit solos because they would be considerably less hurt by people ragequitting or dying early. Its designed specifically to address the "burst window" of early game progress for either side, while simultaneously addressing the importance of said impact on the rest of the match. You went into specific situations that are all circumstances to how flawed the root of the issue is, when the proposed approach addresses those as well from a top-down perspective. The wide variable of "gen speeds" needs to be normalized before it can be balanced around, instead of balancing around an average and hoping neither side takes advantage of stacking the odds in their favor. And that doesn't mean they need to be slower across the board, but rather that their potential in either direction needs to be reactive to the circumstances of the match.
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@Carth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3237135#Comment_3237135
His proposal probably means survivor nerfs early and killer nerfs late. There should probably still be an advantage to either side respectively in those periods of time but it is extremely stark in worst case scenarios on either side(all 4 survivors alive most of the game and also someone dying/dcing at the start/early)
@Bardon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3237167#Comment_3237167
Yeah, I could definitely see some rebalancing at both ends, just the implication of "killing off survivors should grant no advantage to killer" seemed way off. Makes sense.
Exactly. Its another one of those issues where not putting even considerations into both sides or inacting one while half-assing the other would cause more harm than good, but its one of those types of issues that would fix a lot of problems in the process if addressed properly. The game is balanced by averages instead of proper design in far too many instances.
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@versacefeng said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3237046#Comment_3237046
Deadlock is typing...
Well its a good thing up to 7 gens (in that case 3-6) can be progressed simultaneously then, and that it also both does not provide and even blocks regression for its duration.
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@DragonMasterDarren said:
I think the current version of Dead Hard is fine, it rewards survivors for good reads and mind games, while not breaking the game in half by allowing everybody and their mother to extend chases with hilarious ease just by pressing the E key
HOWEVER, there is one *small issue*, that being Dead Harding at pallets
At windows it's fine, unless you somehow space yourself out perfectly, you will go down at a window if you fail the DH due to you either medium vaulting the window if you DH too close to it, or just because the killer is right on top of you and can down you anyway, at pallets though, you're pretty much completely fine unless the server lags and eats your input, if you DH and they swing, you get away, if you DH and miss, the killer has barely any time to hit you if you're right on top of the pallet
So i propose a small change to the perk, If you use Dead Hard and miss, you become unable to throw down pallets for 1 second
A simple fix to a pretty glaring problem
(that and patching the stupid Auto DH cheat but that's beside the point)
Thoughts?
You can't use the pallet while dead harding, so there will always be a gap in time between the active frames and the drop. Considering the possibility of trading, I think its perfectly balanced in that regard and pallets are a very smart and fair usage. The killer can make a choice to swing or not if it would be the deciding factor, and their choice and timing have agency in the outcome.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3237110#Comment_3237110
Tbf, when I nowadays get hit by a DS I got confused what's going on and why someone is wasting a perk slot in such a way and then continue the chase just mildly inconvenient, often ending it 10s later. Back in the days I was more conscience which survivor got unhooked recently and even had an eye in the desktop (the real life one) clock, now I just down and hook whomever I happen to stumble about.
I 100% support the "make DS great again, just not in EGC" movement.
DS resets deep wounds and gives you a chance to extend the chase if you go down (on purpose) close enough to a position that can reset the chase itself. anyone who uses it for anything other than that is just flat out using it wrong with its current iteration, unfortunately.
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@Bardon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3237053#Comment_3237053
My apologies, but could you clarify what you mean by "address the efficiency shift that happens with each person down or out"?
It sounds like you're talking about somehow either improving survivor efficiency when team-mates go down/out or reducing killer efficiency in that situation and that sounds terrible for the killer - survivors are strongest at the start of the game when it's 4v1 and to make things harder for the killer the more people he takes out removes one of the killer's only ways of dealing with the asymmetry of the game.
I am, but I am also talking about capping the 4 as much as improving the 3/2/1. Thats why it needs to be an approach that honestly considers the way the situation impacts both sides, as 3 gens being done <90 seconds into the match is just as important as 2 survivors finding it impossible to beat a 3 gen. The extremes need to be put in check and normalized more than having simple +/- factors thrown at them constantly, as the real issue goes all the way down to problems in root design.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3237053#Comment_3237053
Care to elaborate please?
Survivors are far too strong/efficient at 4 people, and slightly too weak/inefficient at 3, then it cascades and becomes damn near unwinnable at 2 and 1. Their objective is far too focused on strength in numbers (which makes sense) but that knowledge also emphasizes the importance of minimizing that advantage as fast as possible (which also makes sense.) In other words, survivors need to be weaker at 4, but lose less strength at 3 and less to offset their efficiency cap that is imposed by losing numbers.
Think of the EGC timer, and how it slows down as people are down or hooked. That type of scaling is done because the point of the mechanic is to speed up the resolution of the game, but the concession against its speed is presented to make said factor have less of an impact on the viability of late game saves. It prioritizes "wrapping things up," but weakens that time limits impact as an advantage for the killer. It was a good design choice that was done to address the root of an issue (in that case, before it even was presented) and reduce an inherent advantage from getting out of control for one side in certain situations.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3237013#Comment_3237013
For what it's worth, I'm not suggesting you sandbag yourself to avoid a high MMR. If you want to do whatever it takes to win and try to raise your invisible number as high as possible, go nuts, you do you. But if you just want to relax and have fun, then introducing strategies that you don't find fun into your playstyle just so you can win is a bad idea. Trying to raise your rating and playing casually are two things that are counterproductive in any game.
But if someone does want to be the very best and climb to the top? Go for it. Use all the best tools you have at your disposal and play to win. Some people find that fun, others don't. I simply wouldn't suggest it to folks who don't.
I somewhat disagree, since most games have their efficiency be focused more on being intuitive and less on abusing as many advantages as possible. I know its a difficult beast to balance in an asymmetrical system, but the higher you climb the more the game becomes about stacking as many odds in your favor as you can, which means that it creates a very distinct natural growth cap. While I agree that they are separate aims to play casually vs trying to climb, the natural state of climbing while ignoring what makes the top in fact "the top" causes a very harsh unknown in terms of what to expect from any given match, and very little time or ability to adjust to the game around you. Its a big part of why the first few minutes of any given match set so much of the pace of the rest of the match, as well as why its that much harder to play reactive to the quality or strategies of your opponent, especially as the results are extremely outcome biased toward kills and escapes.
Its a race that blatantly favors sprinting far more than stamina. People can go into that knowingly conserving energy at the start, but they are actively decreasing their chances of success (or even competition) if they choose to ignore such a stipulation. The two don't necessarily have to be at odds with one another, just separate philosophies and prioritization.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
They should just make camping more skill-based if that is even possible, so that bad killers can't benefit from it but good killers can.
That will solve a great many problems, like bad killers skipping the whole chasing part of the game.
Why not go a step further and address the efficiency shift that happens with each person down or out? It would actually fix things for both sides instead of just focusing on one.
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If they were just being inefficient and waiting for hatch for a dumb challenge or any other type of direct sandbagging, yeah they're pretty much costing you the game.
But If the person did 4 gens because everyone else kept divebombing the hook and forcing trades while they were the only one actually working toward the objective, I feel more sorry for them than anything. They probably capped their points for the match ages ago while everyone else has been forcing themselves at the killer, and they are using a perk like kindred or empathy to see it all in realtime. It all really depends on the context of the match around them.
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@Brix said:
Honestly i try to set myself goals when going into matches. The Kills at the end would be the cherry on top basically. I still would punish ppl farming each other on hook when i am not even 10 meters away, otherwise i dont really see the reason to go this hard.
You can obviously play that way but do you improve that way?
Do you enjoy playing that way?
Since at the end of the day we all play Videogames to have fun and wanting to be a bit better at it overtime.
Either way hope you enjoy the Event and having fun despite the difficulty you might have in your games!
This is why I honestly miss emblems being a core factor in matchmaking (through ranks at the time) as they made it much easier to "create your own win condition" and allowed for more varied playstyles (and even discouraged the "too efficient" ones.) Having matchmaking tied to an outcome biased factor just flat out disincentivizes any play that isn't focused squarely on being as efficient toward completing your overall objective as fast as possible, which was led to so much controversy around the infamous hockey comparison. When you think about it, even survivors were incentivized away from rushing gens and would need to at least interact with the killer in order to secure pips, while the killer was incentivized to prioritize hooks over kills.
It was far from a perfect system, but I still feel like the introduction of MMR (and its relevancy to metrics) destroyed a lot of that self-curation the community had fostered.
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@Peanits said:
I won't tell you how to play, but against an actual good group, that strategy can and will backfire very easily. The start of the match is by far the most important time for Killers. All four Survivors are healthy and have nothing to do but generators. You need to give them some reason to get off the gens and go save each other. If you decide to tunnel one guy at the start of the match, the other three healthy Survivors can go back to doing the only thing that they can: Generators. If they really are co-ordinated, the Survivor being tunneled can even run by the generators to let their friends take a hit for them and prolong the chase.
A 3v1 will make generators go much slower, yes, but only if there's generators left to defend. Ignoring an average group that are bumbling around the map wasting time might work, but a good group is going to get right back on gens unless you give them a reason not to.
That said, as others have mentioned, play the way you want to play. If you throw fun out the window and play purely to win, you'll just end up against tougher and tougher opponents until your strategy stops working, at which point you won't be winning very often and playing in a way you don't enjoy.
Its kinda of weird seeing a sanctioned response both acknowledging the efficiency cap dilemma and suggesting a killer to sandbag themselves in order to not get put into higher MMR (and thus avoid more limiting playstyles.) Those are both issues that can and should be addressed by the balance team, and yet the time-to-first-kill is even more important than it was before the meta shakeup and a similar acknowledgement.
Edit: To add to what he was saying, though, strategies like tunneling require high efficiency to offset the factors that were mentioned. If you try to tunnel a bad player you will secure the 1v3 before too much damage has been done, but if you make the wrong choice then it loses you the game as posited.
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@Pumpkinbros said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3235997#Comment_3235997
ah, nah, just make them super expensive, that's a lot easier, some killers are essential to have addons on like trapper, while others are op, so just vary the prices based on that
That would be better solved by rebalancing the addons and their relation to the basekit, honestly.
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@Orochi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3235589#Comment_3235589
Exactly. I finally bought Mikaela as I was very against boons (as Survivor and Killer), and I felt like I was throwing games looking for a totem so long unless I brought a map. And then on top of that you still have to heal. Way better than Inner Strength but I just didn't like it, love Shadow Step though.
I have always brought Med-Kits almost every game since I started playing years ago and it is just so much more reliable. Yeah the whole team can't get the benefit but games are still very winnable without CoH on any player. And there is nothing more frustrating than a team who misuses boons and waste way too much time running back and healing or booning the same totem over and over as the Killer repeatedly snuffs it within seconds.
All you have to do is do a gen, then boon the totem right next to it after you finish if there is one. By finishing the gen you have removed that portion of the map as a priority, as the killer generally wants to use their presence to slow down pressure of said gens. If there is a 3 gen for example, that first finished gen will generally be quite far outside of the killer's effective range, and will cause them to sacrifice the 3 gen pressure to deal with it.