Rulebreaker
Rulebreaker
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068721#Comment_4068721
It doesnt effect both tho.
People who continue to ruin matches are already going to be readying up as soon as their penalty is gone. meanwhile people who have internet issues or genuinely put the game down technically get a longer penalties (time spent away from game until you click the ready button)
I technically had a 5 day 5 min matchmaking ban because I stopped playing because the game was unfun and didn't try to click ready again. compared serial quitters who would of just got a 5 min or 15 min penalty.Both are forced to wait are they not? Seems like its affecting both as those ones who ruin matches still have to wait. Meanwhile once those whos internet died return their penatly makes sure to say "hey its working"…or it crashes during said penalty in which case more time to see to the issue. Not really sure you can count the 5 days as you actually stopped playing.
Now don't know if this has changed but the last ive heard was that the penalty goes off your last 20 matches. Serial quitters would be getting longer than 5-15 anyways. Once or twice dying internet is will only get a mild inconvenience.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068696#Comment_4068696
Not my point. give me the penalty as soon as I make the infraction. not days potentially weeks later. it does nothing to effect people who you want it too and it effects people who actually take time away from the game (as the devs have told us too if game is unfun) rather then continuing to play and ruin more matches.
Actually it affects both.
If you rage quit via power button or if your internet dies, the system can't tell the difference. Both parties have to hit the button to start the timer. The serial quiters have to wait to wreck more matches while the ones whos internet legitimatly died can make sure that it won't happen again. -
For Charlotte having at least one info perk is great so you know where to send Victor, just remember that Victor can't see auras so don't switch to soon. As Shanoa above said, ways to keep survivors injured works wonders. Otherwise anything that helps a m1 killer helps as Charlotte herself basically is one.
Random info because of boredom (some might be out dated so if things have changed someone feel free to correct)
- If a survivor tries to blind Charlotte while you are Victor, your forced to switch back
- Victor can leap through windows and over pallets. It's not always easy and often not practical, but occasionally a nasty surprise.
- Survivors in lockers or crouching will not trigger Victor's killer instincts (once they get out it does though). This does
- When Victor traps a survivor in a locker killer instincts reveals them and survivors nearby.
- Charlotte eventually loses collision after a certain amount of time as Victor.
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@NeverSolus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067411#Comment_4067411
I love your energy, but not your conclusion: Puts me in quite a position!
This is somewhat disingenuous. 'The Company in question is basically making things that can be used to play baseball' is a narrow focus. The Company isn't just making the bat, they are making the bat, the bases, the protective gear, the balls, the mitts, all of it. To suggest that they just make the bat removes the onus of their responsibility by suggesting they are just giving us things and we do what we want with them in a game someone else designed.
This isn't the case. They make it all, including the rules to the game.
If the lead Yankee's batter (I don't know I'm not a sports person) swung, hit the ball, then carried the bat with him to first base and cold-clocked the person there to avoid them tagging him out we would not be saying 'Wow, he's an arse, but there's no rules against it. It's a thing only arses do.' No, he'd be delisted, benched, and quite possibly banned outright because the rules do not allow for this behavior.
BHVR doesn't just make the bat, they make the rules, the perks, the build limits, consumables, tools, add-ons, killer kits, all of it. What is allowed in the game is everything they do not explicitly and directly rule out. They can rule it out by nerfing it, coding it out, removing the possibility entirely, etc.
Thus the onus lay with BHVR. If they want tunneling to not exist, they will make it not exist. If they want a perk to not do X, they will make that perk not do X. Yes they have pressure from their players, as well as devs, coders and the industry at large but the onus is theirs. Dismissing the application of rules and changes in favor of 'just be a nice fella' in a PVP Game is… I like the spirit, I do, but that's the kind of optimism I cannot fathom. I don't trust people to use blinkers, let alone to be sensible and balanced in a PVP game.
TL-DR; Kinda, but if it was possible, legal, and not punished by the leagues I'm pretty sure we would see people getting silly with those bats in baseball.TL-DR; Kinda, but if it was possible, legal, and not punished by the leagues I'm pretty sure we
wouldsee people getting silly with those bats in baseball.
And that's sorta the point. Because there's nothing people have the choice. BECAUSE people are choosing to do things that make others miserable the blame goes to the people.
Yes the devs make the rules and can be blamed for not setting their foot down, but all the actions currently happening go to the players choices because they have the freedom to choose.
Edit: sorry, hit the post button by accident
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067240#Comment_4067240
That's a ridiculous analogy, because it would be like being upset at a player on the opposing team for stealing a base. When you should be mad at the people who created the rules of the game that allow you to steal a base.
Let's clear the thought process then.
The bat in question is a tool, usually used to play baseball. You can however usually use a bat to play other games, sweep under couches to get something, get a impromptu drum beat going, and of course smack a fool across the face along with whatever other imaginative things you can think of.
The company in question is basically making things that can be used to play baseball. They're not telling people what to do with the bat, they just make tools for the game.
Obviously the guy who smacked you wanted to smack you for whatever reason. Could be a valid reason, could be a crazy reason, but for whatever reason they did the deed. They used the tool made by the company to deal direct damage to the face, arm, or [insert part here].
So, in light of this, what would you pick?
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067193#Comment_4067193
Because i tell the truth. And telling the truth is crazy in a world full of lies.
Remember our talk about baseball bats?
If someone smacks you with a baseball bat, who do you blame?
The company that made the bat, the baseball bat itself, or the guy who smacked you?
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Nemi gets a new buddy in a zombie killer in outrageous clothing?
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@Laghnar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4065723#Comment_4065723
You have no technical arguments, let alone any real knowledge of how to play as a Killer. You are clearly just a Survivor who wants an easy win, as usual. You don't even know how to play as a team, because even before the nerf, it was extremely difficult to face Pro Players who do Gen Rush, Body Block, and Sabotage, even with a Top Tier Killer. In fact, there are videos of famous Streamers who play perfectly and even they struggled against high-level teams with Top Tiers. Your arguments are practically zero and completely inconsistent.
The fact that she was strong for years is not a technical argument for making her unplayable now. Balancing a game doesn't mean 'killing' a character until they are redundant. If she was fine for 2 years, why destroy her kit now? You just want a 'free escape' button without having to learn how to track or use sound. Stop asking for nerfs just because you refuse to get better at the game.
So did you read anything? Like at all?
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https://youtu.be/lDK9QqIzhwk?si=G839ov1HOHLycDSY
Cause I feel like some encouragement is needed
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What would you like help with specifically?
In general: try to infect as much as you can and if possible/practical hook a fully infected survivor. If everyone is fully infected and not cleansing, then grab your free pool from the start and knock out some hook states (or outright win the game if the survivors make mistakes).
TWiXT's build (we call the "eternal plague") above will usually ensure at least one survivor will cleanse or you have all the time in the world as an m1 to get the ball rolling with dying light. It WILL probably get some salt, but hey, at this point what won't?
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@RpTheHotrod said:
Only issue here is that some people sit inside their illusion. That essentially means the killer would be blinded any time they attack them if they stay in the illusion. They could also just crouch in it to prevent any grabs.
They did only say blind and not stun. You can infact swing while blind as killer. Wouldn't be to harmful, just irritating.
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@Lavoonus said:
I feel like your detailing of Legion's history is a great argument for why it shouldn't come back. It was a horrible mechanic that made Legion one of the most hated killers ever released and had to be completely excised from their kit through multiple reworks.
I feel like you can do anything else, even go the extremely lazy route of tacking on a dash to them to down survivors, and it would be more appreciated than bringing back the mess that was old legion.
To be fair, a lot of the things I've seen people complain about was the "moon waller legion" and franks mixtape.
Because the deep wounds timer would go down as long as the survivor wasn't in chase Legions kept getting basically free downs. Sorta like pig stalking an active trapped survivor to make it pop. This problem was more of how deep wounds worked at the time than Legion.
The mixtape basically made it so it took 3 stabs to down (first, second ate about half the bar, third is dirt) but because they could practically immediately go back to frenzy it could be real bs, especially on certain maps.
@CatManThree said:
I'm curious what your thoughts are on this proposal. This is something that been on my mind personally for the past two months or so, and whenever I bring it up in discussions on the official discord it seems to be supported.
Context
It's important to clarify the context on the history of Legion and the deep wound mechanic regardless of whether you are aware of this old feature or not. This is going to be a lot but bare with me here.
Legion and Deep Wound on Release
On release, when Legion landed an attack on a survivor while in Frenzy would deplete the deep wound timer of a survivor by 10 seconds in addition to putting the power on cooldown. This was horribly obnoxious because of how both deep wound and Legion's power originally worked.
At the time, the Deep Wound timer was 20 seconds like it is now, however there were some big differences. Originally, the timer NEVER paused under any circumstance aside from when the survivor was mending or being mended. Additionally, it would always take 30 seconds to mend. Because of this, Legion was able to down a survivor absurdly quicky, stabbing them once inflicting deep wound, and then again between 10 to 40 seconds later while in frenzy.
Legion on release was able to trigger frenzy without having to wait for the power gauge to fully recharge, allowing them to immediately enter frenzy on demand. The addon Frank's Mixtape also originally made the deep wound timer reduce by an additional 15 seconds, which pretty much guaranteed a free down against anyone Legion encountered. Even more so when using Filthy Blade which increased the survivor mending time by 5 seconds (as opposed to 4 now). Legion was also encouraged to do this as basic attacks depleted the frenzy gauge. There's other aspects that added to Legion's stupidity on top of this at the time but that is what was biggest and is most relevant.First Rework
Legion (and the deep wound timer) received a rework only five months after release. The deep wound timer now paused while in the killer's terror radius (note that undetectable did not exist at the time). Legion now no longer depleted the deep wound timer upon frenzy stabbing a survivor with deep wound base kit, instead requiring Frank's Mixtape to do it and by 7.5 seconds instead of 10. Also basic attacks now only depleted the gauge by half. Filthy Knife was also nerfed down to 3.5 seconds instead of 5.
Update 3.4.0
Deep Wound was changed to take 12 seconds to self mend and took 8 seconds to be mended by someone else. It was also changed to pause the timer while the survivor was running instead of in the killer's terror radius like now, coinciding with the introduction of the Undetectable Status in the same update. Filthy Blade was also nerfed a second time down to 2.5.
Update 4.5.0
Deep Wound timer was changed to be a consistently 20 seconds across all effects and abilities. Additionally, Frank's Mixtape had its timer reduction brought down to 5 seconds.
Second Rework
Legion was reworked a second time, three years after the killer's release and first rework. This is where we the Legion we have to day came from for the most part. Main things of note here though is Frank's Mixtape was completely changed from its old effect to what it does now and Filthy Blade was buffed up to 5 seconds.
Update 8.6.0 (last year)
Mending time was reduced by 2 seconds, which is where it lies now. 10 seconds self mending, 6 seconds when mending others.
Now, all that aside. Legion is well…absolutely terrible currently. Despite their immense popularity among the playerbase they are easily one of the worst killers in the game, struggling to down any survivor with a brain. They can't even really apply slowdown anymore assuming survivors either rarely heal or brought a medkit. Considering how deep wound is significantly different that it once was and is generally significantly less threatening, perhaps the depletion could be brought back. Majority of the time, Legion is just an M1 killer with no power that can maybe get an injury before a chase start. They are functionally just a significantly weaker version of ghoul, doing the exact same thing of rushing over to the survivor for an easier injury and then beginning chase. A chase where the Legion just runs around as a no power 4.6 trying to down the person.
So what are your thoughts on this? Any thoughts on other possible buffs or changes to Legion too?The above said, Legion is sorta in a fine spot now atm. As absolutely therapeutic as it would be to be able to repeatedly stab a survivor to get downs, they don't really need to be reverted and there's definitely a hornets nest to kick if they tried. If they get that back there'd need to be quite a few changes (ex: they were hag speed on release and not the default speed)
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The slugged survivors don't really get to play and when people keep Slugging for what could be called stupid reasons people get ticked. Many many times justified.
Slugging when they assemble to try and blind or something of the like? No one reasonable would complain.
Slugging everyone then hooking or worse to bleed out? Kinda a frustrating experience.
Slugging to use a slug as bait for the team? That slugged is definitely going to give deserved salt to you for pretty much not letting them play.
Slugging the 3rd survivor to look for the 4th for that 4k? Stretching the game out unnecessarily.
If you really want to know why, go play survivor as a slug for most the match.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4060332#Comment_4060332
Good point, friend.
It is just a bit difficult to have such hope after so many disappointments.
Look at it this way, if they do a good job you get a pleasant surprise and if they don't you get to say "I was right".
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Just saw this,
Thank you, appreciate the notice for the people here
Didn't see a mention for @Xernoton or @Iron_Cutlass so here's a delayed spot at the table
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It took some years, but they finally delivered the Trickster map many wanted
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For your ideas:
- The first part is fine but anonymous mode is meant so there's less harassment. I'd propose a compromise of if they're in anon mode they can't interact with the end screen. Can't dish it out if they won't take it as it were.
- Fair enough
- Would disagree with this one as this IS one of the few ways to avoid idiotic cheats. Besides if the killer would dodge due to a simple skin there's different concerns I have.
- Again fair enough
- As long as it's the end screen that's fine, though I don't see how this affects lobby dodges. You'd also hurt a LOT of people's egos with this. That's a good thing but just a heads up.
- I mean it's worth testing global premade messages but I'm going to be blunt, it probably won't end well with how the community can be.
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I'd like to expand that and have all modifiers for customs
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Let's see how much these ideas are hated.
Make tunneling undesirable: Nerf, punish, whatever name you want it, make tunneling the least desirable option. While it's sometimes is needed, it should be effectively a last resort and not the first response. Let's say when a survivor is hooked consecutively gens speed gets a bonus that's large enough to give people pause.
Reward spreading pain: A carrot to the above's stick. Obviously no but also something else to help in trial. Going between 2 people will reward bp more than tunneling one guy and gives killer instincts on a survivor that hasn't been hooked yet after they move a certain distance. A hook carousel (defined: hooking everyone once before a repeat survivor) could reward a mini grin embrace effect. Things like this, give a carrot for the behavior people like, make it appealing.
Prevent "undesirable" behavior in a "fair" or "interesting" way: These are heavily dependent on the individual but for this got 2 examples: Slugging for the 4k and t-bagging at the exit. For the first if the bleed out timer is 1/4th gone (a total of a minute slugged) and it's down to 2 survivors, that survivor can abandon without leaving a bot. For the second for each standing survivor within a certain distance of an open gate the endgame timer speed increases.
Those are just random examples but the point is to find common ground on what behaviors most players hate and curb them, preferably with punishments (sorta like what people are doing here already but better to push the point across).
Make doing other things more appealing to survivors: Basically put pressure on survivors to do something other than sit on gens while not making it completely mandatory. Like some people said above, having a repair penalty while injured gives survivors something to potentially focus on while still giving a choice and is a nice tiny reward for spreading pain, though it can't be to large as otherwise the community will get something like "forever legion". Yes this is a bad thing before anyone questions it.
Totem value: Going with the above, make totems more valuable to snap/bless like making base gen regression faster for each non blessed totem standing or giving a boost to breaking speed for the killer. Something that gives survivors a practical reason to snap bones without being overwhelming enough to make it explicitly mandatory.
Hit the toolboxes a little: At the moment, people like toolboxes more than medkits, so make being able to quickly healing teammates more appealing than having a burst of gen progress that'll be deleted with regression. It syncs well with the above injury penalty at least.
Tweaks to killers and perks on both sides: This is here for completion's sake as no one will be able to agree on common ground for what should happen to what.
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@azaxydbd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054418#Comment_4054418
if he was balanced killer people wouldnt do 100 winstreaks, so many content creators are on the 100s winstreak with him currently, and he was just released lmao, the best way to balance this killer is make strict mmr, put him against comp ready swf every game lol
If you managed to get a 100 winstreak with trapper does that make him not balanced?
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@HoodedWildKard said:
So, the devs need to killswitch either turn back the clock, or the wraith. Just had a game against a wraith where some bright spark has figure out that if wraith uses turn back the clock while cloaked, it instantly uncloaks him allowing for instant hits on gens.
6 hook states at 5 gens. No thankyou.
Have a question: Do you remember what add ons the wraith had? There's an add on where if they kick a gen while cloaked the immediately uncloak.
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Cheers from the abyss
We wish you well
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002685#Comment_4002685
DBD was never meant to be a pure stealth game. Back in 2016 the core loop was actively escaping the killer, with stealth elements — not full stealth. Maps and structures were designed for chases,even more than today. Stealth was always meant to be used during a chase to lose the killer, not to sneak off early and sit in a bush all match. That got abused, which is why grass got reworked, maps were made brighter, and certain offerings were removed. (bye bye full moon) So no, I wouldn’t call that “good stealth” — it’s a playstyle survivors abused to drag games out, and it was never the original idea.
and phantom fear.. come on.. 2 sek aura with 60 sek cooldown. noone plays this perk.
it’s not intended that someone can completely avoid killer contact — everyone has to get found at some point. thos chance has to be there. if you can’t accept that, maybe this isn’t your game. if 2 seconds of reveal into a maybe insta-down is a problem, there’s a lot of room to improve. you can’t balance the game around that, because some players turn a 2sek aura into a 60s chase and don’t go down instant. and there are plenty of short stealth moves to briefly break los, buy a few extra seconds, extend a structure, or just create (sometimes ´huuuuge) distance.
Look at that…trying to dodge yet again. Its sad we're not surprised. Remind us again:
Oh wow—how new are you that you don’t know aura perks all have range/duration/trigger limits and hard counters?
Aura is ultra limited and not a big deal during a nrmal chase.
What were you suppose to answer? How these triggers are hard right? How its ultra limited? Not some random freaking tangent to try and distract. Not what you think the core loop of the game was. Not the strength or use rates. Not more assumptions. What. We. Asked. Ya know, since we're so new and don't know?~
So can tell us? Pretty please?~
You also cant apparently comprehend any stealth other than chase or rats, as seen here:
Stealth was always meant to be used
duringa chase to lose the killer, not to sneak off early and sit in a bush all match.and phantom fear.. come on.. 2 sek aura with 60 sek cooldown. noone plays this perk.
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@Raccoon said:
Exciting thread.
We envy your enjoyment
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002671#Comment_4002671
Predator / I´m all ears stuff
Tbh this shines mostly on Nurse — aura reads erase distance because she just blinks to you. On most other killers? If your pathing + cam control are decent, you’ll live even if they see you for 4–6s (+2s if they burn a perk slot on Lethal). That’s why you barely see these perks outside niche builds.And..
If you suspect Nowhere to Hide, play for it: don’t crouch behind a random rock near the gen — wait at a checkspot near a pallet or a tile you can actually take a chase from. If the perk’s confirmed, weaponize it: you know he wants the kick → free time to rotate and build distance while he kicks. Struggling with a 4–6s aura usually means a positioning issue, not that the perk is broken.Thats on you. Maybe this is a point where u can improve.
Also, these aura perks come with heavy cooldowns and/or conditions (lose chase, fast vaults, kick the gen, etc.), so mindgames and short stealth windows are still very doable — especially during those long downtime phases.
Ohh no you don't, no dodging what you said:
Oh wow—how new are you that you don’t know aura perks all have range/duration/trigger limits and hard counters?
Aura is ultra limited and not a big deal during a nrmal chase.
You think the "trigger" on these is hard? You think you can "hard counter" the likes of "I'm all ears" and "predator" on a whim? We weren't even TALKING about "in chase" we were talking about "good stealth". Your words, We'll highlight it in bold for ya:
And there’s still plenty of good stealth: break LoS, do short stealth cuts behind structures, little fakes/mindgames at tiles, walk-tech — all stuff that buys distance and seconds.
Edit: the idiot hit post before we finished the whole thing
Also, these aura perks come with heavy cooldowns and/or conditions (lose chase, fast vaults, kick the gen, etc.), so mindgames and short stealth windows are still very doable — especially during those long downtime phases.
Yes cause those "conditions" we could ohh so obviously work around when trying to stealth. And no, not just chase, STEALTH. Want another thing to try? Phantom Fear. You look at the killer at the wrong time your revealed.
Well?
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002460#Comment_4002460
We're a lot more inclined to believe that many killers hyper relied on tunneling and
thoseimplications rather than that breaking balance…ya know, considering its seen across the board even when it would be stupid to do.
What time and what region were you playing?
In my group it was more mixed, and we actually saw less tunneling than in average pub lobbies on live. Most people just wanted to test the new changes.You realize most of the map is RNG generated correct?
What are you trying to say?
Sure, some strong structures have fixed spawns. For the rest, good survivor macro is just reading the RNG fast and leveraging it. That’s a normal part of the game.You realize the broader population would then need things like the tunneling nerf correct? As the broader population does not do perfect plays nor can things like solos having real time coordination to combat it. So we'd ask if you want to balance for the broader population, why was the ptb anti tunneling bad (
notthewholeptb before you jump sharks)?
Wrong layer. The issue is entry-level MMR + missing onboarding/solo info. A global anti-tunnel bubble hits every MMR and flips matches where it isn’t needed (and can be outright harmful).
Constructive: fix MMR/onboarding, expand solo info. Protect true newbies, yes — but not with global freebies that reward ignoring macro and distort games across all lobbies.So if you know theres a survivor working on a important gen (it has progress) yet you can't find them, do you hunt that survivor or do you leave the gen? Depends on the situation correct? Cause if that one is say one of the last 3 gens and theres 2-3 alive, your going to be at risk of one of the others popping. If its the start you'd need to decide if that gen is worth the effort. The good stealth gameplan is forcing the killer to choose from two choices: either buying time for the team by having the killer hunt you down or get them to f off while you work.
Stealth dumps the cost on the team: one guy brings 0 pressure/info/saves, the other three are basically playing 3v1. In SoloQ that’s not a “gameplan,” that’s grief by proxy. And against me it doesn’t work. Your “force the killer to pick” idea is a huge gamble: defending a progressed gen while all four are alive is EV-bad unless the team is disorganized. So of course I leave the gen and take hook pressure / hard tunnel—that’s guaranteed pressure on the scoreboard. Trying to hold that gen is a coin flip that only pays if the lobby is chaos or super low MMR. Versus any coordinated team you’re not saving that gen anyway; you win by removing a player, not by babysitting a tile.
Which does nil against aura reading. In fact some of those lose seconds seconds against the smarter killers. And some of those aren't even stealth if we're honest.
Oh wow—how new are you that you don’t know aura perks all have range/duration/trigger limits and hard counters?
Aura is ultra limited and not a big deal during a nrmal chase.
In my group it was more mixed, and we actually saw less tunneling than in average pub lobbies on live. Most people just wanted to test the new changes.
First, look across the forums. You could have throw a stone and hit someone who's experienced it or talked about the uptick since the announcement of the changes being put on hold. Second we play at sundown EST. We haven't seen much more but that's because the amount we're used to is a lot already.
Sure, some strong structures have fixed spawns. For the rest, good survivor macro is just reading the RNG fast and leveraging it. That’s a normal part of the game.
You said that's how a map is built but it's built with RNG. Some maps currently have near nil after one pass. No amount of leveraging is going to help if you have nothing to use. And before you inevitably blame it on survivors, its always going to be a different call if you need to use that resource now or not. On death hook and killers close in chase? Betting your going to use it.
Wrong layer. The issue is entry-level MMR + missing onboarding/solo info. A global anti-tunnel bubble hits every MMR and flips matches where it isn’t needed (and can be outright harmful).
Correct layer. You EXPLICITLY said broader. Broader is not entry level, it's not the extreme skill level, it's the big pack in the middle (level). There's 3 things people can do against tunneling currently. 1. Bring full anti-tunnel build, which only delays the inevitable and not everyone will have them due to almost all being dlc, of which some cost real cash. 2. Extreme coordination and efficiency, which solos have no access to coordinating their team and most swfs aren't the super 4 man SWAT teams nor have any desire to be. 3. An extreme imbalance of skill where the survivor is much more competent than the killer, which is effectively a match making error and down to luck. Just the anti tunneling? Not all that bad for those who don't hyper tunnel.
Stealth dumps the cost on the team: one guy brings 0 pressure/info/saves, the other three are basically playing 3v1.
Not sure you read what we typed. One guy brings pressure and progress in the form of the most valuable commodity in dbd, time. The killer trying to find you is more time for the team to do as they please. The killer says screw that means more time for you to do whatever you please. And should the killer waste time hunting you down and finds you? They still have to catch you meaning more time before your even injured. Only the actual rat players give value to the killer, stealth itself is a strong tool in the right hands.
So of course I leave the gen and take hook pressure / hard tunnel—that’s guaranteed pressure on the scoreboard.
But until that unhook happens, the others are free to do as we said.
Trying to hold that gen is a coin flip that only pays if the lobby is chaos
If a lobby isn't chaos both sides are playing extremely wrong.
Oh wow—how new are you that you don’t know aura perks all have range/duration/trigger limits and hard counters?
…Ohh yes
So hard to trigger
Their range is so poor
We must be so new
Obviously we don't know anything…right?
...go ahead and keep making assumptions
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almost every match was a 3–4 out, we only dropped two games. It clearlybroke balance— and that wasbeforewe even had time to figure out how to max-abuse the new system.We're a lot more inclined to believe that many killers hyper relied on tunneling and those implications rather than that breaking balance…ya know, considering its seen across the board even when it would be stupid to do.
You’ve got
main + key gens, strong windows, strong structures — that’s how the map is built.You realize most of the map is RNG generated correct?
Balance for the broader population; protect true newbies via matchmaking.You realize the broader population would then need things like the tunneling nerf correct? As the broader population does not do perfect plays nor can things like solos having real time coordination to combat it. So we'd ask if you want to balance for the broader population, why was the ptb anti tunneling bad (not the whole ptb before you jump sharks)?
It was rarely “Distortion alone,” it was the
stealth gameplanbehind it.So if you know theres a survivor working on a important gen (it has progress) yet you can't find them, do you hunt that survivor or do you leave the gen? Depends on the situation correct? Cause if that one is say one of the last 3 gens and theres 2-3 alive, your going to be at risk of one of the others popping. If its the start you'd need to decide if that gen is worth the effort. The good stealth gameplan is forcing the killer to choose from two choices: either buying time for the team by having the killer hunt you down or get them to f off while you work.
And there’s still plenty of
good stealth: breakLoS, doshort stealth cutsbehind structures, littlefakes/mindgamesat tiles,walk-tech— all stuff that buysdistance and seconds.Which does nil against aura reading. In fact some of those lose seconds seconds against the smarter killers. And some of those aren't even stealth if we're honest.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002185#Comment_4002185
And the reasonable solution would have been to address the specific problem scenarios, instead of nerfing the entire AFK crow system.
For example, survivors don't need to have a massive grace period to find and cleanse totems, if the killer doesn't have any hex perks.
Wouldn't it take years of dedicated coding to solve each and every specific possible problem scenario? Especially when more would pop up due to more content being added?
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001764#Comment_4001764
uwhm..
just a quick upfront note: I don’t call it a “second game,” but two queues with the same core rules and different friction/incentives. Win condition, chase physics, perks, and add-ons stay the same—only the surrounding parameters are set differently.
and..
1) “Isn’t that just another mode (Chaos Shuffle / Mutators)?”
No. Shuffle/Lights-Out tweak the core (random builds, heavy vision/info cuts). My proposal is a preset: light LoS (line-of-sight) blockers, a perk/item budget, fewer meta stacks—tuning knobs BHVR already adjusts regularly. Ranked = everything goes. Casual = sandbox with guardrails.
And yes, casuals can jump into Ranked anytime—but then they accept DBD without limitations: faster gen speed with no counter-buffer, “bully squad” loadouts, hard slugging, proxy camping, and tunneling—in short, all the one-sided spikes casuals specifically don’t want.2)I think we’re talking past each other. A mode, to me, would be Shuffle/Mutators—that changes the core (random builds, heavy info/vision cuts). I’m talking about a preset: same rules, same powers, same perks/add-ons—just caps/guardrails on the extreme combos and light LoS tweaks. Call it a “Restricted Queue” if you want. It’s not a different game mode; it’s the same sandbox with bumpers.
Yes, people will always optimize. The goal isn’t “no meta,” but smaller amplitudes: fewer 2-hook snowballs, fewer 2:30 gen rushes. DBD stays DBD—just with fewer high rolls in Casual. If you want full expression (bully loads, proxy, tunnel, everything goes), you can always play Ranked.
“Casual = all the features, zero stakes” sounds nice, but in practice it’s a warm-up magnet for sweats: same tools, zero risk. That’s why you need a combo of incentives and guardrails: in Casual, fewer BP/no pips/no public stats, small anti-camp/anti-tunnel helpers (which BHVR is testing anyway). Plus a season lock/limited swaps → Casual stops being useful as a warm-up farm.
If it’s about wording—fine. I care about the outcome: Casual should feel like DBD, just without the one-sided spikes; Ranked remains the stage for “anything goes.” Run a BHVR A/B test over it (stomp rate, match length, quit rate). If it works, keep it. If it doesn’t, scrap it.
3.) Casual allows creative builds, but under a budget/whitelist. Meaning: fun experiments yes, meta stacks no. Ranked stays uncapped for maximum expression.
Why this actually means more variety: with dampers against one-sided stomps (early snowball, info/gen high-rolls) and small buffers on both sides, off-meta perks become more playable. Not “no meta,” but smaller amplitudes → more viable paths, fewer “hard-lose/hard-win” high-rolls.
The only hard limit in Casual: a full meta stack. Solution: a loadout check that transparently sends you to Ranked if you’re exactly running that … like:
Your current loadout matches the Ranked parameters.
Switch to Ranked?Note: Switching = season lock until the end of the season (1 planned switch back with cooldown).
[Switch to Ranked] [Cancel & adjust loadout]This way Casual stays the sandbox with bumpers (creative, laid-back, fewer stomps), and Ranked remains the stage for “anything goes” — including full meta, bully loads, etc.
4.) “Comps will warm up in Casual anyway.”
Make Casual intentionally bad for warm-ups: season-lock (1–2 swaps max + cooldown), reduced BP, no visible grade/MMR/prestige in Casual. The carrot lives in Ranked (cosmetics/stats/prestige). If you want to sweat, you go there. Also add SBMM buckets in both queues so migrations don’t wreck match quality.Or you could also give people titles that can only be earned in Ranked. The highest titles are only available if you complete the entire season (or the month) without a queue swap—purely cosmetic but clearly visible (lobby/end screen).
and yup: some people will always min-max and try to sweat in casual—you won’t stop that 100%. that’s exactly why you ship it as a bundle: season-lock + split SBMM + no public clout, and most importantly the casual-side bumpers against one-sided stomps. those bumpers basically steal the cherry off the cake for sweats—their little edges get blunted, bully stacks hit a loadout gate, early snowball gets dampened. so sure, they can try, but it’s worse reps, less payoff, more friction. if you wanna sweat, go Ranked; Casual stays the chill playground.
5.)Not “less BP” alone — the bundle kills warm-ups in Casual. Casual becomes unsexy for sweating and imprecise for practice.
- season-lock: 1–2 swaps max + cooldown. quick warm-up? meh.
- no clout: no public grade/MMR/prestige, fewer BP → nothing to flex.
- SBMM split: separate MMR per queue → comps don’t farm newbies.
- loadout gate: full meta? prompt: “move to Ranked” or tone the loadout down.
- light guardrails: small anti-camp/tunnel/snowball dampeners in Casual; core stays the same.
- BP fine-tuning: base BP equal; Ranked gets a small streak/title bonus → pulls sweats there, not everyone.
- mode lock: being locked to one mode for the season (with limited exceptions) already stops warm-up hopping.
6.) who’s “you” here? the chat toggle was just a side idea to make casual a bit softer — not core to the proposal. the core is still the two-queue + bumpers bundle.
7.) I’m not “adding on” — the bundle is the proposal. Same DbD core (win con, powers, perks/add-ons). Casual is the same sandbox with bumpers, not a new mode.
“Funny combos” aren’t dead; they’re protected. You can still meme and experiment under a budget/whitelist. What gets checked is only the full meta stacks (e.g., multiple slowdowns/info-aura megastacks) that turn lobbies into stomps or full “bully squad” loadouts. With no caps, optimization compresses the meta; with light caps, off-meta stays viable and actually shows up in matches.
It’s “chill,” not “restricted”: soft anti-tunnel, a small hook pause in proxy-camp radius, Kindred-light, and toned-down versions of the PTB’s anti-tunnel/anti-slug ideas. Hard abuse loses value; punishing misplays stays legit. If you want full expression (bully loads, uncapped stacks, max stakes), Ranked is right there. Casual just trims the spike edges so people can try stuff without ruining someone else’s night.
(What the right dial is, you figure out by testing — just like the last PTB. Those were tweaks they tried to cut casual-player frustration from like tunneling/slugging.)
And beyond that: those bumpers and anti-snowball dampeners that kick in when a side starts tipping cut the frustration and open up way more space in Casual for perk variety, off-meta picks, and real meme builds.
8.) when I say “god-chain loops,” I mean those strong structures that can still spawn and, in good hands, buy a ton of time (MacMillan sometimes spits great survivor RNG, Autoheaven too, etc.). I know how to run and chain them; a typical casual killer usually doesn’t (zoning, denying fast vaults, whatever). and I’m not a casual player — as killer I know how to end chases fast; casual killers often don’t. on the flip side, casual survivors rarely squeeze max value from good RNG — they panic and don’t connect loops cleanly.
that’s why Casual benefits from more, smaller/softer loops and more LoS blockers: survivors get play without perfect chaining, killers aren’t forced to deal with giga-RNG chains. both sides can just play how they play, no homework, and still have a good time. that’s the whole “Casual mode” idea.
end of the day, this is a mode for people who just want to hop in and play — no perfecting, no homework — the same folks who vent about slugging/tunneling, “killer too OP,” or “genrush.” and yeah, for killers who don’t want to learn specific structures, some loops are basically hard to crack. Casual trims the spike edges so you can just queue up and have fun. Without learning.
wouldn’t be my mode. but that’s the point: opt-in. let the “chill game” crowd queue into a lane with bumpers, and keep Ranked clean for skill/expression/sweat. different intents, different lanes. fewer stomps, fewer salt posts, clearer expectations. nobody’s taking anything from anyone: if you wanna grind and improve, go Ranked; if you just wanna vibe after work, go Casual.
9.) totally fair take — but tbh that’s the point. if you’re a rulebreaker who plays for carrots/clout/full expression, you belong in ranked. casual is the chill lane with bumpers; it’s supposed to be low-incentive for more competitive players. casual is for folks who just want to hop in — killers who don’t know (or don’t want to learn) every tile/structure and ability line, and survivors who don’t want to study tunnel/slug counters, aura-perk interactions, or the whole perk/counter web. no perfecting tiles, no map min-max — just queue up and play.
10.) call it a “game mode” if you want — I don’t care about the label. it’s the same DbD core, just a parameter preset (caps, light LoS, incentives). events like Chaos Shuffle/Lights Out change the core temporarily for everyone; this would be a permanent lane with the same rules, just lower amplitude.
“why not cut hard abuse in both queues?”
because you need an uncapped pressure valve. ranked stays free so comp/tryhard players hang out there (carrots/clout), the SBMM/practice signal stays clean, devs get balance data from full-expression builds — and “warm up in casual” isn’t worth it.casual gets soft guardrails (anti-tunnel/slug light, small hook pause in proxy radius, Kindred-light, loadout budgets). that trims meta spikes & prestige pressure so low-intent matches don’t become stomp coinflips. the early bumpers kick in when one side starts to run away and blunt abuse by themselves. think bubble-wrap armor: lets people play poorly without instantly imploding and shields against quick one-sided stomps — abuse loses bite.
this isn’t an auto-win or hand-holding, more like shock absorbers: a tiny gen throttle, a brief unhook mini-haste, a bit of info via Kindred-light (or something else) — just enough so Doc/Ghosty edges or early snowball don’t flip the whole match. you can still punish misplays; the “press once and it’s over” stuff is just rarer. result: fewer coinflip lobbies, more room for off-meta and messing around — and if you want full freedom, you’re in ranked anyway.
and . .. because the snowball triggers are capped/blunted: no full slowdown/info stacks, and when proxy/tunnel/slug shows up the bumpers kick in (mini-haste, small hook pause, a bit of Kindred info) — the edge evaporates fast. plus mode-lock = no newbie farming, no lobby cherry-picking. so.. "abusing" just isn’t worth it anymore.
if it’s just the name, fine: call it “restricted queue.” outcome matters: fewer stomps, fewer rage-quits, clearer expectations. run an A/B: if stomp/quit rates drop and match length stabilizes → keep it; if not → bin it.
..
Sure—just rough ideas that’d need polish. But there are plenty of ways to make a casual mode unappealing to “all-in” players like me and give people who just want a quick, low-stress match their own lobbies.
Good entity this is hard to read on a phone. You keep leaving out "mode" and we're feeling your doing so on purpose. Each time we're calling it a second game mode is because it's more like a game mode than just a casual dbd game. Think about chaos shuffle. It has all the basics of dbd except for one fact. You say yourself:
only the surrounding parameters are set differently.
Which is what a different game mode is. We state what a casual que would be the same without the "stakes" of ranked not a complete new thing with its own rulesets.
- What your calling the "core" is different than what we would call the core (gens and getting out for survivor and hooking and killing for the killer) but aside from that you're missing the point of the swapping from que to que. If you can swap from casual to ranked then logically we'd assume you're be able to go from ranked to casual, which would be the problem previously stated. If your locked into rank once swapped that kinda solves the problem but more on that below.
- Think we addressed this in our first paragraph (to be fair, we're reading and answering as we go as 2 of us are playing pass the phone when we get time). You are changing the core of the game even by your own set standard. You said 2 perk limited budget, that's not the full sandbox. You said rubberbanding (as an aside we'd think it needs a better name). Both those mess with the "core" in a similar way that shuffle does. If you think a new modifier just for casuals is needed then fine, whatever, but that's not what we think an casual que would actually be.
- First you'd still have "meta" stacks, it's just stacks of 2 instead of 4. Second "meta" isn't the full problem, it's meta plus playing like lives are on the line using the game's equivalent of sucker punches and hitting below the belt which then becomes the problem. Third it leads to less variety, just in a different form. People will still go and optimize, it's just limited and you also limit any creativity by only having 2 perks in one more as basic logic dictates there's more combinations using 4 perks than 2. Fourth we're confused on what you mean by "viable paths". Fifth"
Your current loadout matches the Ranked parameters.
Switch to Ranked?
If given an option (wouldn't know how it would accurately fit parameters with just 2 perks but chugging along) then that doesn't really help since they'd say obviously no if it's the kind of people we've been talking about.
4. Bp, grade, and all that doesn't detract from using it as a warm up. You know, a match to get the blood going so your prepped for the main event as it were? Why you'd think these mater for a warm up is beyond us. The carrots (mostly bp and cosmetics) attracts the casuals also which brings the problem of making the "ranked" que like what we already have instead of the other way around. Those "bumpers" also make the "casual" side more unappealing but that's us arguing with opinions.
5. As we said above the bps and most the other wouldn't matter for the warm up. The best (kinda like only as we see it) would be the locks and we see that as unappealing to be forced into restricted mode or sweat mode. Granted we're not sure how a majority would react to that either way so maybe personal tastes are coloring that.
6. You is you, oecrophy. Theres a button to turn off chat already. As far as we know it keeps it off till flipped on. Your also going off on some kind of tangent that somehow came from that one sentence... So this is going to sound mean but chill. All we said was you have that option already. That's it, no hidden bear trap we swear.
7. You did since you didn't mention any perk limit at your first post. Your adding details specifically but adding is adding and we're going to call you on it. The funny combos are protected and restricted. It's not mutually exclusive. We also want to point out that we never said dead. It's not important but it bugged us.
It's restricted mode. You can call salt pepper but it's still salty. So what if we wanted the full expression without the bullying? Expression without stakes? If we were to go to the restricted mode we're limited in what we can do and things we can use (specifically looking at 2 instead of 4). If we go into ranked we get the drits we see often enough now and more and THATS going to be "fun" (sarcasm alert).
We think we already covered the "bumpers" (better name).
8. …in good hands anything is a weapon you realize? Once bought a tone of time with a simple car loop cause the guy kept trying to mind game (to be fair it was a Chucky). Bought time with junk against an artist cause we know the killer. Those "strong structures" are vague enough we could interpret it as "anything mildly inconvenient".…
as a side note:
"end of the day, this is a mode for people who just want to hop in and play"
You admit its a different mode. (this is us being a prick)
9. Hahahahahhaha
We Rulebreakers play for kicks and giggles. We may like to express ourselves but not a single one of us cares about clout or even winning. For example my Springtrap has overcharge, oppression, machine learning, and help wanted where the "game" is "don't finish the gen last kicked otherwise ima f you up" where smart cookies actually figure it out (usually at the end but had atleast 5 that figured it out in trial). As survivor we go go with themes as well, I have a Cybil whos as close to silent hill's Cybil as I could manage. What we want is a fun game, and usually thats just a non-dull, not predictable trial. Things like THAT belongs in ranked?
10. We've been pointing out that some of these changes change the core. Its not a "standard" dbd at that point unless both are similar to a close enough extent (yes, we could debate whats "close enough" but throwing it out now that since some of these do change the core of the game like modifiers aka game modes, its not to us)
because you need an
uncapped pressure valverankedstays free so comp/tryhard players hang out there (carrots/clout), theSBMM/practice signalstays clean, devs getbalance datafrom full-expression builds — and “warm up in casual” isn’t worth it.So your telling us that people like being abused in such ways that they will barely get to play on…a lot of occasions? In addition these would come with a smidgen of bp, a probably visual degrading in ranks, and likely mocking. Not counting the likely lack of verity. And they wouldn't want to cut those things down? At all? Cause that really makes us lose sympathy here.
We also think some things are…off. like:
mode-lock= no newbie farming, no lobby cherry-picking…Like isnt that for switching between ranked and unranked? Nothing here involves cherry picking or farming. And you said previously:
Meaning: in
casualthere’sno hard MMR/grade/andreduced BPSo how would they actively farm newbies? Would it even mater since apparently MMR would throw them to whomever? Newbies could match a guppy and veteran sharks together like this correct? Theres alot of text here on this phone so we might miss somethin but theres pieces that seem like your just trying to hammer in.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001715#Comment_4001715
Quick summary up front: This isn’t a “second game,” it’s the same core mechanics with different incentives and a few soft limits in casual. If you want to sweat, you’ll go ranked; if you want to chill, you’ll see fewer stomps. Queues can stay stable with a season-lock plus mild rewards.
- “Queues will spike because of the carrot”
Yes, incentives move players. Hence: season-lock (1–2 swaps with cooldown), cosmetics/small BP bonuses in ranked (no power gap), wide SBMM buckets in casual. Result: less migration, both queues stay populated. - “Just a queue with different rules = what we have now”
Exactly: same core, different friction. Casual removes meta spikes and prestige pressure; ranked leaves everything open. That’s the whole point of two queues without inventing a new game. - “Stealth? Comp wants that too — they’ll just bring more aura reading”
In casual you can cap/whitelist aura spam and add light LoS cuts/blockers so rotation/sneak has value again. In ranked, min-max is unrestricted. Two audiences, two frictions. - “Comp wants every buff — skill expression stays untouched”
Skill expression = chases, reads, macro. No rubberbanding. Casual only trims extreme stomp tools (meta stacks, slug/tunnel/proxy value) and prestige motivation. If you want max expression, go ranked. - “‘no both side grind’ is unclear”
Meaning: in casual there’s no hard MMR/grade/ and reduced BP — for both roles. No grind incentive, no “warm-up farming.” - “Why chat in one mode?”
Optional lever. (only a idea) .. Idea: casual without post-game chat/stat wall (less toxic/prestige), ranked with (review/accountability). Could be symmetric if preferred; it’s a toggle, not dogma. - “Killer can still stack — doesn’t help casuals / tunneling stays”
Not in casual: perk cap (e.g., max 2 per player + team budget), low-tier add-ons/items only, max 1 slowdown. Plus soft anti-tunnel, hook-pause in facecamp radius, and Kindred-light. And the anti-tunnel-anti slug stuff from the ptb in any rworked form for the casual modus. Hard abuse loses value; punishing misplays remains legit. - “Fewer loops = easy downs”
It’s not fewer loops; it’s fewer god-chain loops. Total count stays; distribution/LoS is fairer. More wshift-panic run value, fewer endless chains. Casuals don’t squeeze optimal value out of the OP spawns anyway. - “Not a dealbreaker for a comp mindset”
For many it is: no progress, no stats/chat prestige, meta caps = low incentive. That’s how groups self-sort without force: Comp → Ranked, Chill → Casual. — especially with anti-tunnel measures and fewer strong/-chain loops in casual. - “That’s a totally different mode”
No. It’s DBD with different parameters — like events/mutators. If you want “pure,” that’s ranked; casual is the de-spiked sandbox
Casual trims meta spikes/prestige pressure and adds soft guards against hard abuse; ranked keeps full freedom/rewards. No skill nerf, no second game — just clear friction for two playstyles so both queues work better.
First its "different game mode" similar to say chaos shuffle modifier. The core mechanics have no limits on any perks, items, etc while your affecting what each player can do with some of the list. You even have something that affects core mechanics (specifically in one half aka making them alot more different from each other) in your list which is "rubberbanding light (casual-only)". If one half has this mechanic and the other doesn't what do you call that?
- First is that if your able to swap how does that solve keeping super sweating out of the other que? Second if theres only limited cosmetics in one side (in this case "ranked") wouldnt everyone just go to that que to get said cosmetic (in this case every "casual" who wants that fancy cosmetic would go to "ranked")?
- Again that makes it a "game mode". One side having more drastic alters makes it effectively a different mode instead of a "casual" que. There'd still be meta spikes, just different directions as humans tend to try and optimize. A "casual" mode should have all the bells and whistles as you'd find in a ranked game just without any of the "stakes" involved.
- What we're seeing is your version of "casual" is to just limit…well a lot in how people can play.
- If offered a choice we're willing to bet good BP that theres going to be a decent amount of takers in the "competitive" player group as since they'd use anything they can to win, if this was thrown in then they wouldn't mind. Sure some wouldn't want it but we're not willing to bet that a majority wouldn't want it. Extreme stomp tools are not set in stone. For example, durring lights out people would play things like doc or gf to get a edge. They could easily nullify the disadvantage both sides had.
- …So why would reduced bp and outta wack mmr stop people jumping into "causal" to warm up? Quite frankly we'd expect competitives to hop into a casual match to warm up for their ranked ones (aka the ones that actually mater to them). In fact you'd also send more casuals to ranked if the bps were better there…which would anger the comp people, drive away players, maybe both if we're going the doom route…kinda lost on how this is suppose to work.
- Well, chat is currently toggleable sooo…grats you got it?
- See now your adding on. We'd assume (based on us so we maybe wrong here) that many casuals like to be able to make funny combinations. As we said your just sorta making "casual" into "restricted mode" and not necessarily just a "chill" DbD (thats probably not the best word but basically "not super sweat enough to make the other side miserable").
- So first we'll ask what a "god-chain loop" is to you as while theres a good amount of chains on certain maps, none are what we'd describe as a "god-chain loop". Our standards for those come from 2017 and not really many we can think of that exist off the top of our head.
- "no progress, no stats/chat prestige, meta caps = low incentive." is fair but there becomes the problem of people like we Rulebreakers who will end up having low incentive to go to "casual" cause of the carrots being offered in ranked and the limits put on casual. You'll have what we have now in the ranked que instead of the casual. We'd find it kinda funny but it probably wouldn't be a good thing.
It’s DBD with
different parameters— like events/mutators.…mate…do ya see what we see here? What is chaos shuffle? What is Lights out? What was the freaking anniversary event? Dbd with "mutators". Meaning "game mode" yea? Your effectively calling it a different game mode here and not even seeing it.
Casual trims meta spikes/prestige pressure and adds soft guards against hard abuse;
And we cant cut down hard abuse on both ends because of why? We are genuinely curious about this answer.
- “Queues will spike because of the carrot”
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000286#Comment_4000286
you can build “casual mode” so that people like me (all-in, like tunnel/camp) won’t touch it—while casuals still have fun.
- season-lock: pick your mode at season start (casual or ranked) and stick with it. no “quick warm-up, stomp casuals.” max 1–2 swaps with a cooldown, done.
- ranked gets the carrot: small extra rewards at rank X (cosmetics/BP/title). if you wanna sweat, go there.
- dial casual down: curb the meta, soft anti-tunnel/anti-camp, a bit of anti-3-gen. fewer perks/add-ons/items = less sweat value. goal: chill, not esports.
- maps, casual-flavored: fewer god-chain loops, more line-of-sight cuts. SWF loop value drops; casuals who don’t squeeze every tile barely notice.
- more stealth love: a bit more sight blockers, slightly shorter scratch marks, slightly quieter grunts (casual-only). more rotation/sneak, less endless looping.
- rubberbanding light (casual-only): killer rolls too early → mini haste after unhook. survivors rush too early → short gen throttle. once per match, small, predictable. (for folks who like skill expression, this mode becomes super uninteresting—the moment you’re ahead and in the stronger position, the game dials you down to make it “fairer” for both sides).
- no both side grind in casual: you don´t have to play both roles. ranked:
- 20/80 over the season window: By season end, at least 20% of your ranked games must be on your off-role (Killer ↔ Survivor). No “right now” requirement—just spread across the season.
- maybe no post game chat in casual → zero prestige for stomping.
- Perk limitations: you can’t stack four aggro, killer-punish perks per survivor—let alone sixteen in a 4-stack SWF. Makes the mode unattractive for "bully" SWFs.
- With extra stealth, more line-of-sight blockers, and soft anti-tunnel/anti-slug, casual becomes unattractive for killers aiming to control hard and punish every surv misplay.
alone : “Rubberbanding light” that slows the dominating side is a dealbreaker for comp-oriented survivors and killers: it may look more “balanced”/“fair,” but it comes at the expense of skill expression because weaker players get artificially propped up — for a comp mindset, that’s simply unsatisfying.
casual gets more relaxed & fair, but maximally unsexy for sweats. me? wouldn’t go there. i’d stay ranked—that’s the whole point.
- Thats defiantly going to cause ques to spike as depending on what "ranked" offers most are going to flock to one or the other.
- As above, offer the carrot to one side more are going to flock that way just for the carrot and basically turn it into the mode we currently have.
- Then it basically is just a different type of game mode as we previously said: "Just a que with different rule sets."
- Same as above except replace "rule sets" with map.
- Personal thoughts on needing more stealth aside, you dont think that someone on the competitive side would want things like that? Also people would just bring more aura reading.
- More than willing to bet that alot of the "competitive midset" would want every buff they can get for their side. Also this doesn't really affect skill expression, just time in trial.
- We believe your sentence is cut and we also don't know what exactly you mean by "no both side grind".
- Why?
- Thats gonna ruffle feathers, but aside from that why would there be a chat in "ranked" then? We don't care either way but why have it in one but not the other?
- Back to bullet 3.
- Ignoring how the killer would still be able to stack, how would this make the "casual" mode better for casuals? You realize that the tunneling is a problem currently and these help, even if only a little, against it. "Causal" killers who tunnel have free reign and now theres less to help survivors with it. It also loops to bullet 3.
- …we're going to go with a "no it wont". Especially since it would apparently have less looping. Less looping means once a survior is found their going to be easy to catch.
- Really doutful that its a dealbreaker for a majority of comp minded because again, it does not come at the expense of skill expression. Its a balance discussion? Don't actually know what the proper word is but [Skill expression: the demonstration of one's acquired abilities, often seen in creative endeavors or in video games as the ability to use complex skills to make a noticeable impact.] Would say it demonstrates your skill by being able to handily win through it.
Basically you'd be making a who separate game mode in general with this. Its a completely different thing then and that shouldn't be the point of a "ranked" and "casual" que. Some differences wouldn't matter but these are enough that we would call it.
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While probably true you'd have to admit it would be hilarious while it lasted
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000868#Comment_4000868
situationally (and Nurse doesn’t have tons of perk variety), but it’s not uncounterable.
If Nurse loses chase on you and Predator procs and you’re still in range to get caught by two blinks, then… maybe route it differently next time .. play for more distance.
....how the ever loving hell are you supposed to make that distance when predator procs without SB or something for that exact moment?
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000844#Comment_4000844
oufm, not hard to do the math:
vs decent survivors it takes ~25–40s to find and down someone, ~8–12s to carry and hook, plus a few seconds to pick up/position—call it ~40–55s per hook state before you even spend time patrolling or kicking. five gens are 450 survivor-seconds. if roughly three people are on gens most of the time (one kites, no goofy resets), that’s about 150s to finish. in that window a killer doing ~40–55s per state gets maybe 3–4 hook states. that’s not two deaths unless you snowball—stacked hooks, bad saves, refusing a 1-for-3, etc. even if it averages more like 2.5 on gens (some rotations/saves), you’re at ~180s, which still lands around 3–4 hooks before the gens are done. on Nurse/Blight the timing compresses; on M1s it stretches. with clean survivor macro (spread spawns, take the trade, minimal resets), gen throughput beats hook throughput—which is why “decent, cold-blooded survivors” feel favored against most of the roster until they hand you snowball windows (which many squads do).
and yup, that back-of-the-napkin ignores toolboxes, gen perks, and great skillchecks, yada yada —we’re using the raw 90s base. all of those only push gen speed further in survivors’ favor.
So the answer we got was an extended version of "no".
See, way we see it, your first problem is your using math in a trial. That 40~ seconds? Maybe it was your first hook. Maybe you took 70~ but burnt many of the resources or injured multiple survivors in that time? Considering those what are the chances your next chase is cut down by let's say 30~ seconds. Heck it could be more depending on who and where. The second is you ignore things that the killer does that alters any kind of time table. Third is that trying to use clean numbers in a game with this much RNG and human elements is futile at best.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000840#Comment_4000840
Large-scale dashboards would be great, but you don’t need them to see the pattern. Get yourself into high MMR (or watch verifiably high-MMR VODs), record 50–100 matches, and code the rounds. Tag opener quality (spawn spread, first two downs, hook stacking), SWF vs solo, reset timing, 3-gen states, trade calls, people throwing and when, /endgame/over commitment
That tape tells you the why KR can’t: a lot of 4Ks come from early macro errors and refusing a 1-for-3, and a lot of escapes come from soft openers. KR without round context is a blunt instrument.
Record it. Just analyze high-MMR matches. See where it breaks. It’s not that hard. You should be doing this anyway if you want to improve.
Well can you show us then? You obviously know everything that's the problem. Give us a view and point out your theories.
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A problem with that is the ranked mode ones would be using any "casual" que as their own personal stomping grounds. This would be what we have now (win at all costs sweats, toxic players who just want to make others miserable, random casuals who want to play, newbies all mixed in) aka the "casual" que and a 99% full sweat mode aka the "ranked" que. Nothing would stop people from running full meta sweat vs "casuals" and adding limits to the "casual" que…doesnt really make it "casual" then does it? Just a que with different rule sets. All the while the player base would be split and que times extended on both ends.
It wouldn't really help much overall.
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For us they felt the same. Annoying but manageable. Didn't even know legion got changes till literally reading this.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000016#Comment_4000016
nah..
the killer—should have a real chance to win vs any group
if played well, independent of kill rates andwithoutrelying on major survivor mistakes. by “win” i mean a
4K. balance should letskill → 4Keven vs stacked comps. if the killer roleneedsthrow-level survivor mistakes to win, that’s not agency.Independent of kill-rates. Good balance means both sides can win when played well — not ‘killers only beat top teams if they throw a major mistake
That’s what a well-designed PvP game looks like to me.
Thing is this:
should have a real chance to win vs any group
if played well, independent of kill rates andwithoutrelying on major survivor mistakes.
is currently true now.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999336#Comment_3999336
I actually don't think DbD's controls are that complicated. Probably not "simple", but it's not mechanically demanding, really. If I had to place DbD on a 1-10 scale from dead simple to highly demanding of manual/mechanical dexterity, I'd probably put it alike a 3 or 4.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999325#Comment_3999325
Largely true, but it's also far too imbalanced and inconsistent to be considered a properly competitive game.
And this might be semantics, the fact that it takes thousands of hours to get "good" at is more down to having to sort out the game's convolutions and inconsistencies than developing any kind of technical gaming skill. I wouldn't call it a skill floor so much as a knowledge floor. Anyone can get good at DBD with enough time. You can't say that about a lot of games.
Ultimately, DbD is just its own janky thing; too convoluted to be considered super casual, but too loose and unrefined to be truly competitive and/or serious.
We'll concede they're not exactly hard to understand, its like 3-4 buttons on controller not counting emotes, but those buttons do everything and a few killers go an extra mile so knowing when/what/how something does gets funky. But its all gonna vary from person to person anyways.
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…honestly we could fit dbd in that definition with everything but "simple controls which can be easily understood by players of any skill level". Its actually kinda funny XD
Its player to player as the central gameplay (stealth or chases). Normal trials are pretty short (around 13 esque minutes on average so depending on whats viewed as "short". Mario party takes roughly 20+ minutes for us if rushed for compairison). Minigames of skillchecks and carrying wiggly survivors (stretching yes, but its the principle of the challenge of why we're typing this). And the players are competing to win.
All that said, we rulebreakers think dbd is its own thing. It doesnt fit the "casual" google definition and only checks some on the "competitive" google definition.…Also drunk dbd is good (non)wholesome fun.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999258#Comment_3999258
To be fair… Artist has always been good, and her playerbase don't really want for anything on her. She works well.
Survivors don't like her too much, but Artist has never had any real issues with bugs, never really fell out of the meta.Its glorious being just plain and good~
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Supposed to be? We're going with no. Dbd has no competitive ranking (ranks here is more like monthly rewards for playing) and MMR is just there so things like newbies aren't getting stomped by veterans (your miles may vary on how well it does so). There's a good amount of people who would want it to be fully competitive esports esque and there's a "comp" scene but dbd is really not set up for that.
At what point do players weigh having fun versus wanting to win with a competitive mindset.
This has been a problem plaguing dbd for a long while. There's always going to be those who will do everything in their power to win just like there's always going to be goofballs, with neither of these liking each other. We'd say the devs are trying to find a middle ground between them, where you doing everything to win doesn't inherently make the goofballs miserable. But who knows, maybe they're just stumbling along.
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Heres an old post, still relevant:
@TotemsCleanser said:
So I'm trying to get the Steam achievements done and I'm currently on the one where you have to down people with Dire Crows 50 times. And I can't stop feeling that this one will take me even longer than that one where you have to level Evil Within up 300 times as Myers lmao because Jesus Christ is this killer rough. I struggle a lot to get downs with her power, most times it's way more worth it to set up some crows and M1 folks when they leave the loop. And her whole power feels so… clunky… So full of unnecessary cooldowns and stuff.
Also, it does not help that I'm playing the event, where gens fly, but honestly I don't mind losing and survivors escaping as long as the chases feel satisfying. Which they don't.
So, what are some tips for Artist? I'm looking for tips in general but also for tips regarding how to down people with her crows.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996596#Comment_3996596
If anything, I could see them reverting the abandon if everyone is slugged thing since now everyone has tenacity and unbreakable basekit. The game isn't over until its over. This just seems really random. Curious if itll count plot twist and conviction and going down and recovering.
Probably. Probably should if they keep it. And if it somehow does count plot twist and conviction that'll be a new low bar for us.
It just kinda irks us how the devs just solved like 85% if the go next epidemic only to give another basically free avenue for it.
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Grab your sleds people, here's the slippery slope we all saw coming
On a serious note, this really shouldn't be a thing
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995622#Comment_3995622
Why do we care? Because these changes are proposed the way they are to begin with.
I feel like a broken record, but they should know better.
Tunneling is a problem so deeply engrained in dbds core gameplay, that it can't simply be solved by giving a bunch of perks basekit. The core mechanics and objectives have to change for people to want to stop doing the strategy. Forcing them by lowering their agency won't fix it. Just make the issue more apparent and create new ones on top of it.
Just a personal note, you cared enough to reply to my post. Why? To call us all pitiful? Who's pitiful?
The core mechanics and objectives have to change for people to want to stop doing the strategy.
Just so we have a clear understanding, what are you specifically referring to with this part?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992883#Comment_3992883
The two survivors are delaying the killer from progressing hooks, which means delaying the killer from progressing their objective.
By your logic, pallet saves, flashlight saves, flashbang saves, and hook sabotages are ALWAYS a terrible strategy for survivors, because it requires a 2nd survivor that could be repairing generators instead.
The two survivors are delaying the killer from progressing hooks, which means delaying the killer from progressing their objective.
We're assuming this is your answer for number 1 then? Thing is, that becomes risk vs reward. Jesterkind kinda pointed out scenarios and we've already said theres a myriad of them. Many of those scenarios will end up becoming more delays to the survivors meaning more time to kill them.
By your logic, pallet saves, flashlight saves, flashbang saves, and hook sabotages are ALWAYS a terrible strategy for survivors, because it requires a 2nd survivor that could be repairing generators instead.
Always? No. Many times? Yea. Though being specific, we see a lot of people go out of their way to do these things and fail instead of "moment of opportunity" times which contributes to our view of them.
also…just because this bugs us…
This whole "survivors can't weaponize anti-tunnel" argument revolves around the belief that the number of survivors repairing is the most important thing.
In our opinion? Its because its the killer's choice to follow through and going along with the anti-tunnel one. This whole survivors repairing thing thats been going on? Thats from:
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992489#Comment_3992489
Because what we really care about, is whether or not weaponizing anti-tunnel mechanics is a powerful strategy for survivors.
What we really care about, is whether or not it's a powerful strategy for survivors to aggressively bodyblock if they have active anti-tunnel mechanics like DS.
We just wanna know why its apparently bad to continue chasing the unhooker in our scenario (which you partially answered) and what is forcing the killer to grab the survivor they just downed [this survivor was the unhooked one].
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@kartikins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991498#Comment_3991498
How so? I assume they aren't planning on doing exactly this, would be an amazing coincidence if they were. Are they planning some update? They seem to plan so many changes. lots of updates, lots of rumors etc. I lose track & kinda gave up trying.
Unlimited unbreakable after your on the dirt for 90 cumulative seconds.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992598#Comment_3992598
You're really asking if aggressively bodyblocking with an anti-tunnel mechanic is a powerful survivor strategy, because the killer can choose to continue chasing the unhooker.
You're really asking if weaponizing DS is a powerful survivor strategy, because the killer can choose to not pick up the survivor.
And in both cases, I'm saying, "YES", it is a powerful survivor strategy, because the survivor team can still be at a net gain, even if they do your "counterplay", which isn't really counterplay. The number of survivors that are NOT repairing isn't as important as the number of survivors that ARE repairing. In both your scenarios, there are up to 2 survivors repairing generators, while the killer is being delayed from progressing their objective.
As in, the number of survivors repairing generators is flawed logic. What we should be caring about is if the survivor team or killer team is progressing their objective faster. And yes, this can be complicated if alternate kill scenarios are involved, like devour hope or a Myers tombstone addon, but most games aren't revolving around alternate kill scenarios.
Incorrect. It's literally 1. How is two survivors doing bumkiss the killer losing out? 2. What is forcing the killer to pick up an obvious bait (or to be more generous a potential DS)?
As we see it, survivors "trying to weaponize" anti-tunnel has the following for the killer: Two survivors not on gens, one likely the dirt requiring either another survivor, specific perks that usually work once, or being on the dirt for a gen's worth of time (potentially with the last one). Depending on how and where the chases go, you could have the following scenarios: 2 down ready to be hooked (1 potentially having DS), 2 down with you scaring another survivor off a gen and the 4 trying to pick up the first slug, 1 survivor down with the first up being healed and the 4th had gotten off the gen because the chase got close, etc. There's a myriad of scenarios. Yes some will leave the killer worse off, but some (and in our opinion most) leave the killer better off.
The thing is, if your delaying the other teams efficiency, you as killer have more time to progress your objective. Meaning you have more time to do whatever you need to. You should see that as when survivors delay the killer, they get more time on gens, this aspect of the game goes both ways. As a side note, if they don't "weaponize anti-tunnel, then it's more likely 3 survivors are on gens... which likely makes gens go more vroom like we often see people whine about.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992489#Comment_3992489
Because what we really care about, is whether or not weaponizing anti-tunnel mechanics is a powerful strategy for survivors.
What we really care about, is whether or not it's a powerful strategy for survivors to aggressively bodyblock if they have active anti-tunnel mechanics like DS.
Actually it was how survivors could actually weaponize anti-tunnel perks such as DS without the killer's input and a scenario with two questions. You:
The killer is usually at a net loss, if they hit a survivor multiple times, then leave them slugged on the ground. It also ignores the fact that it's still an overall better action to pick up the survivor and risk the DS.
At least it is at my skill level, and considering my escape rate, I'm figuring I have to be at high MMR.
Us:
If you could humor us with a common scenario: The unhook happens nearby and the killer sees two survivors healing under hook. Killer goes for the unhooker to be "nice" and the injured tries blocking. Killer hits injured and continues to chase the unhooker, but the dummy keeps trying to get in their way. Hit two, their down.
First what is stopping the killer from continuing to chase the unhooker? The killer had effectively kept two (2, dos, duo) of 4 off of gens and now has one effectively off gens again until they get up which requires another survivor, perks for usually 1 time use, or to be effectively neutralized for 90 cumulative seconds if the changes go through. How is the killer losing out here?
Second what is forcing the killer to pick up the slug? As killer they chose what they do. DS can't force them to get picked up. A supposed high MMR killer would know when the survivor wants to use DS and chooses when it's more beneficial to eat it or not. It's a choice, not a force.
Which, if we're being nit picky you haven't actually answered.