Rulebreaker
Rulebreaker
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Grats mate~
Now, is there another target?
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Welcome to hell, enjoy your stay. We have snacks and entertainment to last awhile.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3966160#Comment_3966160
Strangely, 6.1.0 still happened without going next even being prevalent yet.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3966172#Comment_3966172
Sure. We're talking about a game that has a largely adult audience, no ranked mode, and a small comp scene. Why go scorched earth on leaving what's ultimately a casual game? There's a disconnect there.
So please explain the thoughts here? We're curious.
If we recall correctly 6.1 is when a bunch of basekit changes happened along with the meta shake up.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3966126#Comment_3966126
They could have simply given up on learning to counter the killer and say "to op" for example
Freddy's release and Skull Merchant 2.0 say hello.
Bingo
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3966113#Comment_3966113
Are we forgetting that their own system couldn't tell the difference between tunneling and giving up? Balancing for the game requires a host of different avenues which are all already in place. The stats they do have, surveys, the forums that they pay people to gather and relay feedback on, streamers they pay to do the same, etc.
The stats don't show how people died or escaped. Surveys are going to be a mixed bag as that's people's opinions. You can just look at the forums to see how divisive (and other words) our community is. Streamers have their own opinions.
All this, and it doesn't answer the question. If people quit, how does anyone know it was balanced? Those streamers? They could have simply given up on learning to counter the killer and say "to op" for example. Giving up doesn't give data for balance.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3966088#Comment_3966088
Because they're unrelated. Players are still giving up now. Unless you want longer queues and players giving up, you have to compromise somewhere. If DCs had a limited timer and replaced players with bots (or ended the trial for Killer DC) as well as maintaining the surrender option if it's all bots against one Killer, it wouldn't fix the issues that cause players to give up at all but it would keep the queue moving. The game would require better balancing and changes if we want the quality of trials to bump up.
The game would require better balancing and changes if we want the quality of trials to bump up.
How would the devs know what's balanced or not if people keep quitting?
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965522#Comment_3965522
Well, friend, you might recall that we made an attempt to understand why, exactly, people were giving up all the time:
Based on this discussion, it doesn't seem to me that the goalpost was changed, mostly because many things that were causing frustration were not even addressed.
But in that same post you admit the trend continued "even if some of the worst offenders (such as the gen kick meta itself and Skull Merchant's first design) we're no longer around." A good amount of the major complaints sans tunneling and slugging have been in some way touched or addressed.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965522#Comment_3965522
Just because we can't address all of the reasons doesn't mean we shouldn't try to address some of them.
The problem is your shooting in the dark trying to figure out which one to fix. Is it X, Y, Z, a mix, or cherry picking parts of them? In addition to that not everyone has the same issues with X, Y, whatever. You'd 'fix' a problem for some while others get a new one with the "fix". Thats not even touching the losers like in the op's post. It's a strangled mess.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964509#Comment_3964509
I'm not looking for punishment. I'm not looking to deny anyone their bloodpoints or achievements. I want what is available on one side to be the same on the other. The line wasn't drawn when the killer BMs. It was drawn where survivors felt it was over, even if other avenues could exists. When the gates are opened, even if the killer could do something, they should still be given the option.
Give killers the abandon button at gate open.
What your looking for and what we're looking for are two different looking fors. What is available on one side currently IS available on the other. What can you do when all survivors are bots? Abandon. We're like 97% sure the line was drawn at killers purposely bleeding survivors. The avenues were said and unfortunately the devs choose this one.
When the gates are opened, even if the killer could do something, they should still be given the option.
So we got a genuine question. How is the gates being open the same as the 4 people on the dirt?
Give killers the abandon button at gate open.
No. We hope they don't and give something else. Demanding something from us is also not going to be productive.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964465#Comment_3964465
Killer's slugging to bleed out may of been the catalyst but not the solution put forward. Thus the line was not drawn where the issue was.
There were various solutions put forward for that. The solution we got to that was this. Theres solutions that can be put forward for the BM at gates or survivors hiding (which if we remember correctly the devs are working on) when the doors are open or whatever. Of which one could be abandoning but there's potentially other options that can be put forward. We want something else preferably something to punish people lingering around safety.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964400#Comment_3964400
What is being asked is not moving the line but matching it. If the exits open and the killer sees opportunity to get another kill, they are still free to pursue it.
What is the fear of? The game doesn't need to end just like when survivors abandon. A simple AI can stay behind to play tag.
That's not a matching line. The line started when killers kept people slugged for minutes at a time. This line is out of inconvenience. The first line was at unavoidable BM unless you take a punishment. This line is trying to get drawn despite being avoidable. These are very different lines.
As killer do you want to play against people or bots? As survivor do you want to play against a player or bot? But ya know what, we don't particularly care anymore. We said our pieces. You keep going. It's unlikely your going to be swayed by anything said and your definitely not swaying us.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964364#Comment_3964364
Still bring up what ifs like it matters anymore. If a Pig opens a door why would she then abandon? The ask is for a choice not a manditory end.
Sets a bad standard. This one is about more personal than the others so feel free to disregard it but it kills the motivation to keep going and actually play the endgame. When people have a option to quit many take it as the current abandon feature shows. It's then going to spread out to the next "time waster" or something. The lines need drawn somewhere.
That bad standard has already been set. The line has already been drawn. If the means of escape are available and the killer no longer feels the need to proceed, then why not give an option to leave?
The Ifs are the point of the game. For example IF you catch a survivor early then you can potentially snowball. IF the survivors make a good play then they can turn a game around like in Chuckingwong's post. If people have the option to quit then they can repeatedly use it
A line has been drawn, now people are going to keep trying to move it. A view of the bad standard is drawn, but it can keep moving. Where's the stop sign? Over the cliff?
If the means of escape are available and the killer no longer feels the need to proceed, then why not give an option to leave?
We've said why. You may not like what we said, but we told ya. And unlike the survivor version, it's not even about the possibility of holding people semi hostage.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964341#Comment_3964341
I don't believe the survivor's motive is wasting the killer's time as much as it is to BM them.
Survivor's can be ######### too you know. It's not just killers bleeding out 4 survivors.
We're well aware survivors can be arses. It's just we don't really believe the average survivors are quite dumb enough to run out to a practically unreasonable area to hide and BM the killer. Then staying near the exit is more reasonable, but then their relatively easy to find and either push or punish.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964283#Comment_3964283
Lets talk about the here and now and leave past grievance out of it. Survivor's have the ability to leave if slugged, even if the means of getting back up are pressent.
Killer's just want to leave once the gates are open and not waste time chasing out survivors at the gate or looking for survivors in hiding. What difference does it make at that point to you? The survivors still escape, still receive the BP and victory. Everyone gets to queue up for their next match faster.
The difference comes in points:
- The game hasn't ended since we don't know where everyone is or what could happen. Ik one of us purposely opens the door as pig when there's an active trap on hook. There's a whole endgame to play out. Yes we get it optional but it brings to the next point.
- If it end up like how survivors use it very few are actually going to cross the escape threshold. Just like how people rately mori an actual player in the end, just a bot. Anticlimactic ends all round.
- Sets a bad standard. This one is about more personal than the others so feel free to disregard it but it kills the motivation to keep going and actually play the endgame. When people have a option to quit many take it as the current abandon feature shows. It's then going to spread out to the next "time waster" or something. The lines need drawn somewhere.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964330#Comment_3964330
Not random corners. Near enough to make it out if found.
While more reasonable than the other one, still not once just to kill time and not quite the "impossible to find" we're lead to believe.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964292#Comment_3964292
Hunts them down how? How is the killer supposed to reliably find survivors that are purposely hiding in random parts of the map? This isn’t a realistic expectation.
There have been many times that I’ve seen survivors hide in random parts of the map, because their goal is to waste the killer’s time.
Why is it so easy to believe that killers would purposely bleed out survivors to waste their time, but it’s not believable that survivors would purposely hide to waste the killer’s time?
They same way you hunt for them before the doors were open.
It also seems weird to us how we got two people apparently seeing it often yet not once have the 3 of us or Crogers271 above seen it. It's really not believable because we've seen killers bleeding out people often, yet never seen people purposefully run far away from an escape just to waste both sides time, either from videos or in game. The absolute closest we've ever seen of that is the hatch closed and survivors waiting for the entity to kill them. Not quite the same thing.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964292#Comment_3964292
When the doors are open, the likely hood of a survivor hiding anywhere but the hatch or in the open door just to tick off the killer is practically nil. None of us have seen it and we been here since 2017.
What you on? I see this all time. Usually in pairs so they can tank a hit if found.
Your telling us that when the doors are open, survivors are just scooting off to a random corner of the map, just to kill time and annoy the killer, and hide is a common occurrence?
Not in the time we've been playing.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964276#Comment_3964276
The killer can’t reliably force the survivors out, if the survivors are purposely hiding in random parts of the map.
I don’t know why people keep saying the same strawman argument, that the survivors would always be conveniently waiting at the exit gates, so the killer can easily force them out of the game.
The killer can’t reliably force the survivors out, if the survivors are purposely hiding in random parts of the map.
If they're hiding then the killer hunts them down and potentially gets a kill out of it. When the doors are open, the likely hood of a survivor hiding anywhere but the hatch or in the open door just to tick off the killer is practically nil. None of us have seen it and we been here since 2017.
I don’t know why people keep saying the same strawman argument, that the survivors would always be conveniently waiting at the exit gates, so the killer can easily force them out of the game.
Because in this specific scenario people often argue about survivors t-bagging at the gate. Obviously you need survivors in said gate for this to happen.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964276#Comment_3964276
You don't realize the big IF in your response. If the killer leaves them slugged.
What if the killer doesn't leave them slugged? What if the killer wanted to hook them? Then it becomes a question of saving time. Survivors don't want to wait because the game is over in their minds. The same is true for a killer when the exits are open and survivors are butt dancing. The killer doesn't want to waste time chasing them out the same as survivors don't want to waste time waiting to be hooked.
If the killer wants to hook them they could have/can. The survivors can abandon only when everyone is slugged/hooked. They got to that point where the option to abandon popped up. Then if the survivors all abandoned the killer can already abandon. They got the option to skip out on hooking bots.
The killer doesn't want to waste time chasing them out the same as survivors don't want to waste time waiting to be hooked.
This shows a point. It's ALL on the killer. If the killer slugs and doesn't pick up, survivors wait 4ish minutes doing nil. If the killer hooks, the survivors save at best a handful of seconds to a minute. If the killer chased them out the killer saves several seconds. The killer doesn't, then there's a timer.
And before anyone touches anything about BMing, in the past if the killer wanted to they could semi force survivors to be subjected to 4ish minutes of BM (they could DC, with penalty). The killer isn't forced to face BM unless they want to speed things along.
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@Mr_K said:
If all survivors are slugged they can abandon immediately to save their time not the killers time. The killer still needs to find and hook every one of them to end the match.
Killer's want a similar function when exit gates are open and THEY feel no reason to continue and don't want to walk cross map to force survivors out.
But killers can't have this because? Because they can walk to both exits to push them out? Because they can wait out a timer? Because they could still catch a survivor?
What if a survivor has an unused unbreakable or other perk that can pick them up? What if a survivor has an offering or perk that allows them to kobe? Are you willing to disable the abandon option for them if even the slightest chance exists to get back up and continue? I expect not. I expecting the response to be, survivors have no chance and should be allowed to abandon.
It's not a false equivalence, give killers the option or stop saying the abandon feature is there to save time.
If all survivors are slugged they can abandon immediately to save their time not the killers time. The killer still needs to find and hook every one of them to end the match.
Killer's want a similar function when exit gates are open and THEY feel no reason to continue and don't want to walk cross map to force survivors out.
Before, if the killer slugged all the survivors and the killer decided to not pick up the survivors... what could they meaningfully do? Crawl. And crawl. And more crawling. At a snails pace with (usually) no way to progress, no way to gain points (or anything but pittance worth), just to wait till bleed out, DC with a penalty, or for the killer to be bored waiting for the bleed out.
When the doors are open, what can the killer meaningfully do? They can break things, some can repeatedly gain points with their ability, potentially nab a stupid survivor, or force survivors out. And the survivors have no way to really stop em.
It's to save time in case the killer decided to be an arse and forcefully hold the survivors for the whole timer. Key to this is the forcefully bit.
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The old atmosphere for some of the maps be brought back.
Throw object of obsession into hell. -
@Madmillennial said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3962802#Comment_3962802
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3962813#Comment_3962813
Wait what?! Dramatic much?! Lmao! Aside from your dumb Disney world reference where I'm stealing from vendors and causing a scene??? Right? You'd know, its your reference.…..
All im literally saying is… there's a thin line here. We can't tell people who buys the game with money how to play for everyone else. Mostly because people have reasons why they disconnect other than the obvious rage.... im an example today… you can't control people. It's not right to dictate how others trest the games they pay for.
Im sorry... I hate to be thst guy. I really do. But my reasons are jo better than yours. I don't care what you say. In the end... we all PAID. WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO WHAT WE WANT AFTER THE PRICE TAG.
You Might not like it. I might not like it. But it doesn't matter. We all paid. You quit. I quit..irrelevant. devs should reverse penalties bc we are all paying customers in the end.
And how many customers wana stay if people quit just because?
Why do you get to ruin other's experience because you paid the same as the others?
Why would we wana play a game with matches people keep ruining?
Why does you paying give the right to do whatever especially when your only buying the rights to used the property?
Simply put, no.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961591#Comment_3961591
Personally I'm not a fan of a lot of these Abandon features; as more and more of them get added, there comes more and more "what if" scenarios, and if we get too liberal adding abandon features, we will wind up back with the SoH problem, where players just keep quitting on a dime at the earliest convenience... Unhook attempts ofc had to be basically removed completely because players just can't be trusted with it...
However I do agree things like this are a problem.
I am still trying to peddle my suggestion for a mechanism where after being slugged for so long (say 30s?), the survivor has recovered enough where using the rush button allows the slugged player to crawl faster, but at the cost of making louder grunts of noise and bleeding out faster… where they are using the last of their energy to drag themselves anywhere they can...
Would help with grief 4 man slugging, slugging for the 4k to give hatch, and would also give survivors not trying to quit a mechanic they could make use to try and maneuver to a location where their teammates can try and recover in a little more safety.
It's also thematically on point... having a sort of "Do or Die" feel to it.
We agree that the abandon feature is a slippery slope. However, the devs already opened that floodgate so we're willing to entertain ideas so long as they solve problems that remove agency (or cripple it to practically none).
We've been more an advocate for faster bleed outs that scale with time, but if this works we have no problems with it.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961949#Comment_3961949
This is a long chain and had to look up your orignial B. I thought somewhere it said that the survivor was able to crawl away or something but that doesn't seem to be the case.
The culminative for one minute is not uncommon because even checking for 10s adds up when they continually get blinded. Some survivors are just good at hiding and not all killers are good at the game. I would put this in B because it is not out of malice but paranoia.
Fair enough
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961748#Comment_3961748
[Before the 1v2]
Survivor falls under a pallet and one or more survivors are within view.
Survivor falls in the open and one or more survivors with flashlights are within view.
A known flashlight survivor is not seen but known to be going for saves so the killer checks around before picking up. Cumulative this adds up over multiple downs if saves were made.
These are real scenarios where the killer does not have agency to just pickup the survivor right away or before they are pick up by others.
- Falls under case B
- Falls under case B
- The culminating upkeep would be a whole minute...yes thats one we have no sympathy for. You shouldn't be taking that long to "check". Using them as bait maybe, but checking shouldn't be 20+ seconds each time.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961692#Comment_3961692
How would you detect that early instance of slugging to be malice to grant the abandon later? That's my issue. I believe the solution would be better if the timer started after being slugged at the 1v2 regardless if the previous slugging was legit or malice.
To be frank, wouldn't know what else to call it as if it doesn't fall under B or C there's not really any slugging that we'd know thats NOT "malicious intent" to us that would have survivors bleeding for a minute. Regardless of that, legit or malicious to us is irrelevant as this is more or less idea exploring.
We wouldn't particularly care if the timer starts at the first down in a 2v1 as long as it can't reset in any way.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961591#Comment_3961591
Correct but the caveat was nonconsecutive. Only the 3/4 bar was required. I've already gave my thoughts on this in earlier posts.
[Something happened to our first reply so we're trying this again]
Our main confusion is HOW did the survivor get bled out for a minute. If the survivors were harassing the killer, then it falls under case B. If the killer chased others while leaving a slug, that's then on the killer for leaving them that long and if the slug crawled away that's case C. In both those the killer had ample opportunities to hook. Sabo squads fall under case B to us (we forgot about them the first time). In other cases it practically just letting them bleed. So how did they get to that point?
[There was probably more we've forgotten and worded pretty from the first but ya know, we forgot]
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961588#Comment_3961588
The refered drawback was being forced into the dying state. Say a team of 4 was "having fun" with the killer they are running a risk of multiple slugs. If I were them it would be Power Struggle and flashlights.
Well, could be all perks for extra kicks.
As we said, that drawback doesn't particularly matter and those types of players always run the risk of multiple slugs, only they'll now randomly behave like zombies.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961556#Comment_3961556
The scenario in question is two survivors remaining and give the down 3rd survivor the ability to abandon without a bot. There wasn't a suggestion of a timer or condition other than being in the dying state. So Case A cannot validate if the killer will pickup or not because it doesn't provide that opportunity to them. The survivor can instant abandon without leaving a bot removing the ability for the killer to hook and hunt down the 4th before the hatch can spawn.
The timer in question is the bleed out timer. We voted 1/4 the timer before you can abandon remember? Is the scenario changed to immediately being able to abandon?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961308#Comment_3961308
A reasonable time is “never”, because when killers asked for an abandon button when the exits gates were open, the vast majority of people told killers “the game wasn’t over yet”, so killers shouldn’t get the abandon button.
The exact same situation happens here. If killers can be forced to sit through the entire ECG when survivors purposely hide in random parts of the map, then the slugged survivors should be forced to sit through their entire slug bar.
Welp that's your version of it. We disagree.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961223#Comment_3961223
- Instantly recover from the Dying State.
- Broken Status Effect after recovery.
- Causes you to automatically re-enter the Dying State after 20/25/30 seconds.
The example situation where picking up the survivor is a lose/lose with both perks but conviction has this nasty drawback which makes it hard to repeatly do.
If they get the save one runs off fine(is) and hovers nearby, the saver grabs the slugged while the blind/stun goes and the saver hovers near those 2 when they enviably go down. The nasty drawbacks (not exactly sure which one you're referring to) don't really apply in this situation (they don't care about healing to full, we're assuming the broken status is gone when they go down since it doesn't say, re-enter they dying state still has 2 twits with lights). To us it's basically a harder whack-a-mole.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961308#Comment_3961308
Case A: How do you know if it's malicious if you don't give the killer the chance to pick up? Reminder we are talking about giving the 2nd to last survivor the ability to abandon and leave no AI Bot behind.
Case C: Same as Case A in my opinion. You are basically saying a 4K is impossible even if both survivors are within striking distance of eachother.
Case A is the obviously malicious as in, they were slugging since the start. The killer had chances to pickup before that survivor got to the point where they can leave. If they didn't have chances to pick up it falls under case B, which isn't malicious.
In a similar vein to A, you've left the slug for long enough already that they could surrender. If the freshly downed survivor hasn't been slugged, your free to go get that 4k when the survivor is in font of you. Your just on a timer.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3960857#Comment_3960857
You don't see how that would be a poor standard?
The way we see it, nope. Case A: Malicious slugging, Case B: survivors have a bunch of torches or the slug is under a pallet with others around, Case C: you've lost a slug. Only case B is one we're we see it setting a bad example.That said, we're open to a different amount as long as it sounds reasonable so as you said to the general, everyone just need to agree on what a reasonable time is.
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@Mr_K said:
You can be in the same situation if the survivor had Power Struggle.
Actually you can leave them slugged under the pallet.
We're not on the ptb so we're not 100% sure if this works as we think it does so if it doesn't please correct us. Let's say flashlight squad with the perk. The perk sounds like it works like clean break where you finish a heal and it can activate (with some slight conditions). So A goes down, you chase B, C gets the heal. You down A again and chase C. C goes down but B got A up again. That's already 2 prepared to get a save from the dirt. You can imagine where it goes from there. It's not going to be common, but it's likely going to be used by wannabe bullies this way.
Of course, that's if it works as we think it does.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3960767#Comment_3960767
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3960844#Comment_3960844
How long should they be on the floor before the killer gets a botless DC? The moment they hit the floor or after two minutes bleeding out?
Seeing how some survivors purposely run into the killer just to get the abandon button to appear, I like to know where the threshold lies.
We'd vote if 1/4th the bleed out bar is gone. Doesn't need to be consecutive.
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Feeling a sense of deja vu…
Tunneling: Going after the most recently hooked survivor despite there being another equally viable target without attempting to chase another. Examples:
- The killer is hell bent on chasing survivor A despite survivors B, C, and D taking hits, being on death hook, and running to dead zones is definitely tunneling.
- Survivor A was unhooked next to the killer by B and Survivor B runs to the safest loop without taking agro (EX: a hit) while A runs to a deadzone is not tunneling.
- Survivor A is unhooked and is trying to bodyblock for survivor B. Chasing survivor A is no longer tunneling.
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Vague but heres some options to try:
- [Phantom fear or BBQ], lethal pursuer, deadlock (Pinhead's perk, whatever the perk name was changed to), [your choice]. Lethal to find a target(s) at the start with phantom fear finding survivors nearby for you or BBQ for finding your next target. Deadlock will slowdown progress and possibly get survivors to run into you when your being stealthy. The last perk is your choice.
- BBQ, Coup, deadlock, pain res. This one you'll need to practice when to swing and when to lunge but coup can get ridiculous hits. Obviously bbq is to find the next target and pain res and deadlock (we're never changing the name) are for stalling.
Try finding perks to shore any weak spots you got. Springtrap can pretty much run anything well.
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Personally we'd suggest a aura perk instead of franklins. Springtrap can get around the map pretty quick and stealthily and your build looks like it relies on getting hooks decently quick anyway. That way you atleast get into the chase quicker. Ultimately we'd ask what you want exactly.
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Not sure about you but if we're on the dirt as the last survivor and the other is on the hook we'd rather be moried then and there so we don't have to wait until the other one dies.
It really doesn't take away the 4% anymore than it already did as usually those types of killers make sure your not getting chances usually via waiting at whoever gets hooked or hooking the one they know they've hooked before. All this did is speed it up.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3958389#Comment_3958389
I always thought the forums was a place for the deranged but three people holding one account confirms it
Still waiting~
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3958373#Comment_3958373
Care to share who the three people are? I can take a wild guess
Also, the only reasonable person I've ever talked to here is Jesterkind :)Yet you still ignored them. (ps sorry for the ping Jesterkind)
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957851#Comment_3957851
Can I ask, sincerely, why is it considered "nice" and "wholesome" to simply not tunnel?
Would that not just be playing the game like any other way of playing? Even if you think there's nothing wrong with tunnelling, surely every possible tactic, playstyle, situation, and action covered by "not tunnelling" should have the same neutrality, right?
[If you manage to guess correctly I'll get us all to do a 180 on opinions for kicks and giggles] -
@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957925#Comment_3957925
I get your message, like I said. When I'm playing Clown against a 4 man who is trying everything they can to win, I will make sure to purposely handicap myself because if I don't, I am rude and a bad killer. You are right.
(I should have known that trying to reason with someone who keeps referring to themselves as a collective and in the first person is probably a bad idea, though)Welp the "more reasonable" people tried to reason with ya but you ignored them. In fact the reason you got us (shared account between 3 wackos) was cause of that (currently missing) outburst instead of…like anything else. Heck, we gave you our version of tunneling and it doesn't really handicap you beyond NOT immediately gunning for the unhooked. But go on, keep digging deeper. Were not at 6 ft yet.
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@WalanAke said:
"Why do we need consistency." Bro, are you actually serious??? "New update, Devour Hope totem now looks like a normal totem, but only for survivors." "Survivors can no longer see the entity blocking windows affected by Crowd Control, only the killer can". "Circle of Healing now looks like a normal totem, but only for the killer" Do you not see how stuff like this CAN become an issue? Please for the love of god actually try, go to the dollar store, get some CLR and oil and clean off the gears in your brain so it works at it's fullest for once.
If there is a PHYSICAL object or thing present, BOTH sides should be able to see it, because that's how vision works. It'd be like you and I standing next to each other and I ask you "Hey, you see that paycheck there on the table in front of us?" and your only response is "What paycheck?"
Assuming for us yes?
Some of those sound interesting to us. Would force survivors to break totems on the off chance its a hex, killers would always need to listen for the boon (probably not good for hearing impaired, but still interesting). Meanwhile some of those actually heavily impact gameplay unlike seeing the blast mine. Though if there was only an icon alert for it we'd be game. But ya know, by all means keep insulting us, it'll get you far.
Both sides are not equal in this game. There are 4 puny rabbits vs 1 big bad wolf. Both sides do not need a 1 for 1 thing, it matters on the impact they have. A stun is annoying, a blocked wall is lethal. Only one survivor sees hubris trigger exposed at a time, all survivors see devour trigger exposed at once. Everyone, killer included, sees the results. -
@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957841#Comment_3957841
light tunneling - going after a survivor once after they've been unhooked throughout the game. slightly deviating from the super nice playstyle for one second. different than hard tunneling at 5 gens. why do I have to explain this lmao?
you want definitions, I ask you to define how you want us to play, and you give me the most vague answer possible. "don't play like a dick" from my experience literally every way I play is me playing like a dick. so that doesn't help much
oh and I gotta ask, what about the survivors who are ultra efficient too and split up on gens and are good in chase? I'm sure you have the same attitude towards them and tell them to stop playing like dicks right?
you know, its so funny. your previous comments are basically asking me why I don't want to expand and define anything I'm saying, and ive already say why: because its a waste of time talking to you people. I point out and state why some killers are simply too weak to play in the super wholesome way you want them to, and you just go "nuh uh, just get better skillz" it really does prove that none of you ever had any argument and just want to gaslight players into playing the way you want them to.
"I dont give a ######### if you are playing clown against a 4 man who is doing everything in their power to win. You shouldn't be playing like a dick and tunneling anyone!"Rulebreaker's Light tunneling - going after the recently unhooked survivor until someone else eats a hit and then transferring to that one. Deviates from our "super nice" of hook carousel. The reason you have to explain is because as stated previously to TimberGoingDown, people have different versions of those words and we all (hopefully) want to be on the same page in a discussion.
If you want us to specify very well. When a survivor is unhooked don't go out of your way to chase and rehook that survivor. Ex: Unhook happens while your chasing someone across the map and you return to the hook immediately. Bad killer. The unhook happens in your face and the unhooker does nothing to help the unhooked as you go after the unhooked. Fair killer. The unhook is in your face and the unhooker takes a hit yet you still go after the unhooked. Bad killer. Unhook in face and the unhooker takes a hit but after a bit you realize it's going to be a time sink and leave where upon you stumble on the unhooked and murder them again. Fair killer. You hooked someone else and the unhook happened and you return and chase the unhooked. Rude but fair killer. Don't camp unless you absolutely know there's a survivor trying to obviously bait you into a chase (in which case it's their fault) or you've hooked someone next to a powered door (your fault but it would be completely stupid to leave without a target in this scenario). Chasing a survivor around the hook is not camping, its fair game. Don't slug people just to bleed them out. Feel free to leave slugs when they're under pallets. Dont repeatedly walk on the survivor to taunt them if they did nothing (we refuse to call it what others do as it looks to stupid to even acknowledge as such to us). All this does not apply if the survivor in question runs object of obsession (fk em).
That big ol wall of text is OUR version of "don't be a ****" and its probably missing things we cant think of. Obviously not everyone will agree or even care because everyone is free to do as they will but that's something we'd (Rulebreakers) like. Also note some of those examples would fall under our version of tunneling, yet are under "fair killer" to us such as "The unhook happens in your face and the unhooker does nothing to help the unhooked as you go after the unhooked. Fair killer." Tunneling itself isn't being a **** to us, but how people constantly use it, and at the start with 5 gens too, is. How much of the above is that unreasonable?
oh and I gotta ask, what about the survivors who are ultra efficient too and split up on gens and are good in chase? I'm sure you have the same attitude towards them and tell them to stop playing like dicks right?
Ultra efficient doesn't completely remove the killers ability to stop them and bar possibly repeated blast mines, have little else practical to do unless the killer gives them something to do. As killer, not tunneling doesn't mean your not progressing the game, survivors running up to the killer begging for chases is borderline asking for death. Bully squads are often the ones who need to stop being ****s such as full sabo squads doing everything to prevent hooks or blind squads with the same reason. Being good in chase isn't being a ****. Is the killer a **** for being good? No. Nock down and hook everyone in 5 minutes? Good for you. The asymmetrical nature of the game gives different ways to being a **** for each side. Being good at the game, is one shared where neither can be blamed.
you know, its so funny. your previous comments are basically asking me why I don't want to expand and define anything I'm saying, and ive already say why: because its a waste of time talking to you people.
Imagine how we feel…
You point out to us:like if I'm playing a mouse 1 killer I literally do not have the chase capacity to go and play nice because that relies on downing people quickly
we responded with:
Not everyone focuses on running face first into the survivors screaming "WAAAAAAAAGH", some require a different approach.
With some examples before we said that. We gave an counter argument, it may not be one you like but it exists.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3956960#Comment_3956960
So if recently unhooked survivor does body block killer from going for the un-hooker, must killer still pursue un-hooker and lose time or killer may instead focus on the unhooked survivor instead? Will this still count as tunneling?
I just wonder why it's ok for survivors to play efficiently and do gens, ignoring everything else while it's rather bad for a killer to do the same and get rid of any survivor as soon as possible in the game that rewards survivors who focus on getting gens fast and does punish killer who tries to spread the hooks instead?
By our definition, you tried to go after the unhooker, the unhooked wanted to get in the way and made the unhooker a less viable target.
I just wonder why it's ok for survivors to play efficiently and do gens, ignoring everything else while it's rather bad for a killer to do the same and get rid of any survivor as soon as possible in the game that rewards survivors who focus on getting gens fast and does punish killer who tries to spread the hooks instead?
It mostly boils to survivors often don't have anything better to do other than gens and the occasional killer power/perk. The rifts used to be something but that whole thing with people and nice things. Going out of the way to find all the dull totems doesn't even progress the game like even hook carousel does most times. Chests take some time but are really only used outta desperation/emergencies and can usually be done only once. The killer usually is the one giving survivors things to do (heal, unhook, hide, run, mend, cleanse, vaccinate, spray). Sure survivors could sit around and wait, but where does that lead?
Another thing to consider is that the survivor is eliminated, they're done for the round with all the rewards they got. When tunneled and camped, those rewards are…small. As killer you get a hefty amount of rewards unless you do absolutely horrible, even if your as efficient as possible and get less than you would have if you played with the food.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957578#Comment_3957578
you usually do not need to tunnel from the get go,. I don't do that. but people want tunneling to be completely obliterated when its already been nerfed heavily and is actually hard to do if you're playing a killer who needs to do it
if you are playing a killer b tier and below there is a high chance you will need to employ some light tunneling at least to win against a team who is even decently efficient and decent in chase
like if I'm playing a mouse 1 killer I literally do not have the chase capacity to go and play nice because that relies on downing people quickly; most killers in fact do not have oppressive enough chase powers to make this happen which is why S tier killers exist and ignore all anti-tunnel and anti-camp. not because they can shred through anti-tunnel to begin with, but because they do not need to tunnel and camp; their powers allow them to down people quickly. they CAN play nice due to that.
so whenever someone says that killers shouldn't complain about tunneling being nerfed and should instead learn to play "normal" the only thing I can wonder is how exactly they want us to play. do you want us to go to one survivor, another survivor, another survivor, another survivor, and repeat the cycle? do you seriously expect people to be able to do that against any team with an IQ of 20 while playing ghostface or dredge?You realize we immediately come into the problem of "what defines light tunneling" since you refused to state anything, but starting from the top.
actually hard to do if you're playing a killer who needs to do it
if you are playing a killer b tier and below there is a high chance you will need to employ some light tunneling at least to win against a team who is even decently efficient and decent in chase
Yes its hard, but not a single killer absolutely, 100%, needs to do it to win assuming everyones on an equal skill level. Hard doesn't mean necessary.
So whats "light tunneling"? Do we get to define it? (Yes we're still not over you not providing definitions to put it lightly)
like if I'm playing a mouse 1 killer I literally do not have the chase capacity to go and play nice because that relies on downing people quickly;
All killers have powers they use to hunt down survivors. Trapper sets his traps so he can cut down chase time, Ghostface stealthfully ambushes survivors and can mark for instant downs, Pig has both stealth and one of the best stalls after a down. Not everyone focuses on running face first into the survivors screaming "WAAAAAAAAGH", some require a different approach.
so whenever someone says that killers shouldn't complain about tunneling being nerfed and should instead learn to play "normal" the only thing I can wonder is how exactly they want us to play.
Can only speak for the 3 of us but it kinda boils to "dont be a ****". It ain't that complex, its pretty close to basic empathy even. If as survivor I get unhooked and run into the killer on accident, fair game as its my fault. If as survivor im hooked and the killer stops chasing that injured survivor that was across the map to come try for me (ironically its usually those "s-tiers" you bring up, aka the ones whom you claim "they do not need to tunnel and camp" yet inexplicably do), im going to sigh a "really?" to the screen as im chased practically immediately. Bonus points if at 4+ gens when the killer is running 3-4 slowdowns.
do you want us to go to one survivor, another survivor, another survivor, another survivor, and repeat the cycle? do you seriously expect people to be able to do that against any team with an IQ of 20 while playing ghostface or dredge?
See, whom here said THAT one? Know the Rulebreakers didn't~ You should have defined what you mean by tunneling as THAT sounds more like hook carousel and not tunneling to us.
As an aside, im pretty sure an survivor with an IQ of 20 would be dying repeatedly since the normal range is around 80-110. So in that particular case, yes mr. bond we expect them to kill. -
@WalanAke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957808#Comment_3957808
That's the thing tho bud, It's animation finishes and then there's nothing different visually because the smoke goes away. The killer sees the same thing as the survivor in this instance. Yet when a survivor puts BM on a gen, they get an animation AND another model put on TOP of the generator, a model that ONLY survivors can see. How the hell does that make sense. We gonna make it so Chemical trap is only visible to survivors now? Because we need some form of consistency between what both sides can and can't see.
So does it affect the actual gameplay in a meaningful way?
Also why do we need consistency?
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Question: does the kick effect from those perks stay on the gen?
As killer you used to be able to see the action of someone putting something on a gen (admittedly don't know if that's true ATM, haven't seen it lately) so if the effect doesn't stay then it's effectively equal.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957163#Comment_3957163
>In DbD some killers act like survivors want to penalize anything but 12 hooking, even when they are being told that isn't true.
wow yea im totally going to believe that because the survivors are TELLING me it isn't true. yeah im 100% going to just believe what they say when every single way to play other than bending over backwards and trying to keep as many people alive for as long as possible before actually killing them has been nerfed. camping and tunneling has been nerfed to hell and you cannot deny that. now its time for slugging. maybe if they actually implemented drastic measures to allow the "nice playstyle" to actually be effective, this would not be a problem. but people would rather gaslight the ever loving ######### out of anyone who says this by saying that bending over backwards for the survivors is actually a GOOD strategy, ur just not skilled enough. reeks of the aura of people who go "just pressure generators"wow yea im totally going to believe that because the survivors are TELLING me it isn't true.
So that's my (this poor alone Rulebreaker) official stats tracked since... whenever they started. As you see it's relatively equal (achievements left are survivor ones and springtrap jump scares). Would you call me a survivor? Killer? A guy who plays both ends? What I can tell you from personal experience is that at the very least OUR definition of tunneling that we gave is not necessary to win. You don't need to tunnel from the get go to win. You don't need to go out of your way to target one survivor till they die. You can "play nice" (depending on what you call that) and still come out on top (or atleast not be a ***).
Could also deny that "camping and tunneling has been nerfed to hell" but that's also because our definition of "to hell" is very likely different than yours.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957059#Comment_3957059
Soooo… tunneling is a meaningless word that can mean whatever the survivor in question wants it to mean.
Pretty much, same as any killer with Gen rush. There's a lot of words where everyone has different definitions, hence why people should ask what others define something.