Reinami
Reinami
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@sulaiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650688#Comment_3650688
Where do you get that from? The stats talk about kill rate, and presumably accuratly.
There is not even a metric about good or bad killer, that is just an interpretation of the kill rate done by you.
First, define what a good or bad killer is, and then lets see how the kill rate relate to that, and then we can discuss if the data represents that accuratly.
It stands to reason that the killer that has the highest kill rate that is 10% above the balance line deserves a nerf right? That would imply they are too strong. Similarly, one that is 10% below the line, needs a buff, like nurse. Right?
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650673#Comment_3650673
Did the kills all happen at the end because the killer had NOED and they played altruisticly? I could give you examples of games where i get 1-2 hooks and the game goes horrible, but i get a 4k because they didn't expect the NOED. I wouldn't exactly consider that a "balanced match"
Why wouldn't we count those? That's the game. It's not meant to be even ('balanced match') the whole way through. It's meant that killers can being having a generally bad game but turn things around in their favor really quickly.
Because if ever single game where the killer won ended up like that, do you think that would make the game fair and balanced? And thats not a gameplay loop that is fun for either side.
Is it fun as survivor to be playing well the whole match, and lose simply because the killer hit you with noed at slightly the wrong time? Is it fun as the killer to get completely stomped the entire game until noed carries you?
But at this point you are arguing against a point i shouldn't have even brought up because it isn't really relevant to the discussion. I'd like to stick actually on topic and talk about how the stats are useless.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650666#Comment_3650666
how would you even calculate that?
So Elo, which was invented for chess is the rating system most things use for MMR as well. Usually just slightly modified.
Based on how Elo works, there is a statistical percentage of people that will be in certain ranges. So if they haven't modified it too much. And given that last I heard the soft cap was either 1900 or 2100, I'd guess that it's less than 1% of players.
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@MikeyBoi said:
hmmmm, I think 1 sec turn rate for players that play hillbilly on controller would be alright to a degree maybe (0.85) at the very least but for people who play billy on m&k it needs to stay to 0.75 considering you have the precision of a mouse.
I’m a p100 Billy main with 1000s of hours on Billy and I main him on controller on 100 sensitivity, I can also play him on m&k too curving with q and e @ 800DPI. Controller for me is more comfortable to play with and can often equate to someone using m&k play on controller.
Its not ok that billy can now start to turn and curve a survivor from inside shack back entrance all the way to the window in one swoop.
No offense but your lack of knowledge on Billy is showing here.
You NEVER use mouse on curve Billy. You bind keys to turn left and right, set your sensitivity to max on controller and use that instead. Gives you far more control.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650687#Comment_3650687
That does make a lot of sense. Newer players would probably be too intimidated to commit to killer, I know I was when I started but I persevered because Sadako was just released at the time.
Speaking of, from my experience I kinda understand her killrate during the month of January. It was still 2.0 Sadako, and survivors (assuming they're average MMR based on your conclusions) didn't understand TVs and tapes too well, or didn't like her and gave up on hook. I'm not sure of my MMR on Sadako, but I know I got more 3k-4ks than not with escapes being kinda rare and days between sessions. Funny thing is, when I'd play survivor with friends I could explain her on the fly and get my group to all escape once they understood the tapes. (Granted I also don't know our group MMR either.) I shouldn't base it on my own experience though, but at the same time I can't help but feel like I can understand her killrate. In fact, a lot of killers with an early mori mechanic make a bit of sense if we're taking data from every match all over, maybe not perfect sense since we don't know player #'s for each MMR bracket.
Sadako is a noob stomper. Any of the killers whose power does something complicated always has high kill rates because people don't understand it.
So sadako. Pig. Pinhead. Freddy.
These killers all have powers that make you interact with the map in some way and new players don't get it.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650643#Comment_3650643
You can absolutely use these stats. They are the most accurate stats we have. And from what i see, the devs have the game in a pretty good spot. The ratio is just where it should be from their point of view. If we want to disagree with that and want the ratio to be somethinbg else, then thats a totally different discussion, that is very much worth taking.
We all know why the stats are the way they are. The ultra comp swf squad like Eternal doesnt even appear in public matches that often, because they mostly play in private matches.
The only thing that suprised me was Freddy being in top 5 kill rate. Guess @GeneralV was right and he is truly as strong as he says. I have to admit defeat there.
Ok then, so you believe that skull merchant is the best killer in the game, and nurse is one of the worst? And that is accurate?
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650643#Comment_3650643
That's the problem with taking these stats face value. We'd need MMR brackets for each killer's kill rate, how many times they were ran in a trial, and even then will it factor in self-hook kills when survivors give up on hooks?
Biggest flaw with the data is Freddy in my eyes. Regarded as one of the worst killers, low pick rate, yet he's got that high of a kill rate?
There are plenty of things the data is showing that show it is flawed, but there are some interesting things it shows.
First the flawed things:
- Skull merchant being the best killer in the game
- Nurse being one of the worst in the game.
- Pig, sadako,freddy, dredge, myers being so high
- Huntress, Twins, Chucky, Blight being so low
- Doctor being so low despite being mid tier
- Survival rates solo vs groups being way off (you can't tell me the thread topic is truly accurate)
- Self-care still being one of the most popular survivor perks
Now, interesting things it shows? I have though about this for a while but look at the survivor perks that are at the top. The biggest outlier there is windows of opportunity and lithe, but what about the rest? Every other perk there is a perk that you get for free, either through one of the free survivors you start the game with, neutral perks everyone has access to, or from david who you get for doing the tutorial.
Now look at the killer perks, they are simply just using some of the best slowdown perks in the game all non-free ones.
This shows to me, that survivor players as a whole are probably more "average" players whereas killer players are more veterans because they are using the better perks while survivors are using the free perks. This actually makes sense to me, given that there are more survivors to killer players. So it stands to reason that there are more "average" survivor players than there are killer players. Leading to the stats to be skewed so heavily this way.
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@JeanGreyarea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650656#Comment_3650656
No one believes that. But i believe the game isn’t massively survivor sided like you do (since you always complain about it). If the stats showed 80 percent escape rate you would be backing up those stats.
The stats will never show 80% escape rate because looking at stats that way aren't ever going to show the problem.
Escape and kill rate is a horrible metric to look at because there are too many variables to look at:
- Was it a SWF
- Did the kills all happen at the end because the killer had NOED and they played altruisticly? I could give you examples of games where i get 1-2 hooks and the game goes horrible, but i get a 4k because they didn't expect the NOED. I wouldn't exactly consider that a "balanced match"
- Did both sides play their hardest to win
- Did anyone give up and hook suicide
- Did the map generate a survivor sided map with 87 pallets for some reason.
The other problem is that the amount of survivors that play this game that are CAPABLE of playing at that level are extremely small. So for every match i get against a team that is literally impossible to beat unless i'm playing nurse, i'll get 10 matches with megheads that predrop shack pallet the wrong direction so i hit them anyway.
This is why looking at those types of metrics isn't really useful. This is also why i'm recording many matches right now, and doing several experiments to actually SHOW people what they aren't seeing, because data only goes so far if you can't actually see it. It's just taking a while because i don't have as much time to play DBD at the various times of day i need to get the proper stats. I should later this year though when i have some time off work.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650566#Comment_3650566
Can we know what percentage of the players are at the soft cap?
Due to the fact that everyone at (or above) the soft cap is treated exactly the same for matchmaking, it’s the highest MMR bracket for public games.
If their system is anything close to elo (in terms of statistics), based on where the soft cap is now, its likely <1% of players.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650400#Comment_3650400
To me this looks like a similar hate campaign as what Freddy had back in the day, which resulted in his butchering much to the lament of players like @GeneralV. Survivors hated the character and review bombed the game to get the character they didn't want to learn against removed... even though mechanically Freddy was OK... even on the weaker side for people in the know.
Not only that, but his nerf a week after release led to complaints about him being "too weak" afterwards. And those complaints eventually led to his awful rework in 2019. It is like a big domino effect that took my favorite killer away, the one thing that matters most to me in Dead by Daylight.
As for the topic, I think the situation with Skull Merchant is slightly different. Killers like Freddy and Myers were considered "overpowered" on their releases, but they did not cause problems like SM did. She is more similar to Legion.
Old Legion was far worse than Skull Merchant, but the hatred for him has already dissipated. SM is still stuck on a scenario where people immediately give up against her, even if her current power is no longer a problem. It isn't exactly fun to go against, granted, but it is nowhere near the same as it used to be.
I don't think Skull Merchant will get a nerf, because stats aren't everything and the devs know why her kill rates are so high. I doubt she will get the Freddy treatment, because of the Freddy experience: his rework was poorly received by OG Freddy mains, it was poorly received by survivors, it led to massive complaints and then a nerf that rendered his power useless. I don't think the developers want to risk a repeat of that situation.
She will either get tweaked slightly, or left the way she is until the hatred disappears. At least that is what I guess will happen.
Its mostly this, but her power is unfun to go against really. The most effective way to play her is to actually play her as a stealth killer now because her power is so useless. But unlike stealth killers like ghostface and wraith, there is no "tell" when she is near you. Ghost face has the cape whoosing sound, wraith snarls super loud. Skull merchant is ironically the best stealth killer in the game right now because she makes literally 0 noise.
That's not to say she is good, myers is still not good when you play him as the insta down stealth killer either, but its just not fun when you immediately take a hit that you had no chance of stopping, and especially worse when they often run sloppy butcher and play hit and run.
The reality is though, her power is far less of a problem than it was before. I'd argue that there are killers who are worse to go against than her, such as tomestone myers etc. It'll jut take a ton of time before people realize that and stop immediately giving up.
An additional problem is that there is no penalty for giving up in DBD. The "rank" system doesn't matter, so if a match isn't going your way, you just give up, this is what is inflating kill rates on many killers and i think is the true reason people don't see that survivors are massively OP at high MMR. Because everyone just gives up immediately if they don't like the map, the killer, the time of day, the cereal they got for breakfast, etc.
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@JeanGreyarea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650643#Comment_3650643
”stats should be ignored” yeah because they dont fit your narrative. If it showed that killers were barley killing anyone you would back up the stats
So you believe that skull merchant is the best killer in the game and that nurse is one of the worst?
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650467#Comment_3650467
I feel like there's room for compromise with this killer, although I'm sure ppl will still instantly give up. Currently there's no way to remove stacks for example. If they introduced a way to remove stacks while out of chase similar to Wesker's vacines... it would provide both consistency in chases for the survivors and a reason to get off gens.
Also... just spit balling here but... What if they change how she gets her drones? Currently she has 6 drones which has a 10 second cooldown once placed resulting in 8 seconds of undetectable. Survivors MOSTLY don't bother disarming them since they repair themselves anyway, and the SM can just call it back to quickly replace it.
What if... recalled drones don't go to SM but instead have to be reloaded similar to Huntress hatchets? Would take care of the complaint of "she just tosses down a drone at EVERY loop" since you don't seemingly have infinite drones to work with. Could do something like remove her cooldown to compensate. This would give more incentive to disarm the drones.
Nerfing her isn't the solution though, she isn't a good killer. When played against properly, she loses most of the time. Probably a low C killer at best. People just don't want to play against her. There is a difference there.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
She has 70% kill-rate. And dcs are not even included, probably she is even higher with them.
It's obvious, survivors are refusing to play against her. I doubt she is that strong, it's just survivors don't want to play against her.
And this brings us to this question: Do you think BHVR is fine with her and just gonna ignore that or she will get another big update? What do you think?
The only possible way her kill rate is that high, is because people give up against her. Which means their data clearly shows that its counting hook suicides as non-dcs even though they filter out dcs.
This basically makes their data around kill rates is completely useless. I would imagine given that SMs play rate is super low, it'll just go the route of twins for a while, where she will sit for a few years. People also still rage quit against twins often because of the slugging playstyle and look how long its taken us to get a rework there.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650204#Comment_3650204
And Devs dont balance on "win rate". Then matches that survivors have 2 or less escape should not count as lost, which is 40%. I can say to make survivors have 50% win rate (with 3 escapes in 50% of the time) but Im sure killers dont like that.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650198#Comment_3650198
3% is not a clear number. Given in 10 matches of 30 survivors from Trio. 42.5% means about 13 out of 30 escape. And you dont know if the 10 Solo in those match are escape or not. Say Solo escape 40%. Mean you have this chart, Green for escape and Red for death
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/N99Z29IMJZ0R/image.png
Trio have 42.5% doesnt mean killers lose 2.5% killer rate against them. That 42.5% is only applied on 75% of total survivors.
They balance around kill rate, and due to the nature of the game a 60% kill rate makes sense because statistically speaking if you kill 1 survivor, the probability that you will a second one is significantly increased, and so on. This creates a situation where 60% kill rate ends up being about a 50% win rate/loss rate/draw.
However, if you want to complain about that, you are complaining to the wrong people, and need to complain to the devs. Start a thread talking about this very topic.
Also looking at that stats on kill rates by killer i figure that the situation is far more dire than a "60% kill rate" shows. Because the only reason skull merchant can possibly be that high, is that they are counting hook suicides in their data. Which stands to reason is they count hook suicides in their data for a 60% kill rate. So your matches against high mmr survivors are counterbalanced by the matches where someone immediately kills themself on the first hook because they got outplayed, or they don't like the killer, or they didn't like there cereal that morning. This also shows that high mmr survivors probably give up just as often as low mmr ones.
Unless they release the data sans people killing themselves on hook, this means things are really really dire right now for killers.
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No, i'm just pointing out that the official stats should basically be ignored because they are useless. I will however continue to use them to point out the obvious logical fallacy they create for people who believe that the game should be balanced around average players when i point out how ridiculously OP survivors are at the highest level such that tournaments need to restrict their perk loadouts significantly more than killers (where they just remove ones like myers tomestone) due to how broken they can be.
Then people say: "but we shouldn't balance around those players, only around average level players" To which i now get to point to these official stats and ask where my nurse buffs are, because official stats around the "Average level" players show that nurse is one of the worst killers in the game.
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The official stats also show that skull merchant is the best killer in the game, and nurse is one of the worst.
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@graveyard_7777 said:
After I hook a survivor if there is another survivor that's injured far away, which there usually always is with Legion. I use my power to rush to that survivor cancel my power and down them. They can't hear you coming with the oblivious status effect which makes it easy and surprise them.
You are a bit wrong there on one thing. The survivor DOES know you are coming, because you aren't undetectable, they are oblivious. So it is very obvious to them that:
A) They saw your aura so they know where you are
B) They are likely coming for you
Giving you plenty of time to get into a safe position such as shack, which legion is a simple m1 killer against with no viable mindgames.
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Personally not having any problems. Sometimes when i see this though its because the game has lost connection with steam. Often times if i restart steam (which usually then needs to update) it will resolve the issue. You could try doing that, its possible that your steam is out of date.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649625#Comment_3649625
not sure why billy needed a nerf. I think this change is being largely exaggerated because average billy's who struggled to curve now have an easier skill-floor to curve while people that were already good at curving won't notice anything besides cooldown nerf.
The change for experienced players will mostly buff Lopro chains where breaking a pallet and hitting someone after is made significantly easier.
Actually its the opposite. The way it worked before is that you had about enough time to curve around 90 degrees, making it super easy to just bind turn left/right to q/e or whatever keys you wanted, then you charge and you just hold q or e and you curve 90 degrees.
Now you actually curve a bit more, so you have to time it much better now to actually curve around things. But the extra window to curve means you have more time to do it, and you are able to curve around longer loops. So if anything this makes billy even HARDER to play, and rewards skilled players for doing well while nerfing the braindead easy play of just using the saw to cut someone off and m1ing them super quickly without any real skill involved.
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@Atom7k said:
I don't think that buff was necessary, he can now run around a weak loop altogether. It is a guaranteed down now to be at a short/weak loop.
Billys who are able to do that are going against high mmr survivors already who know how to deal with it. Its not a guaranteed down and your mmr is showing (no offense, its just reality). You can dodge it if you know what you are doing and it creates a great mindgame that makes it so he can actually 50/50 at loops.
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@johntec said:
I think DBD right now is in the most balanced state it has ever been. Most maps are balanced(with some exceptions) and I don't think there is any problematic perk in the game right now.
I think the only real problem left is gen speed, especially when survs split up and do solo gens. There is almost nothing killers can do to prevent those three generators to pop in the first minutes of the game, if survivors repair efficiantly. Running corrupt or changing targets can help a little bit, but if survivors know what they're doing, it's still almost impossible to counter this strategy
So my suggestion is to also apply the same penalty, which you get right now, when two or more survivors repair one generator, to two or more different generators which are being repaired. That means if only one survivor does a gen, they repair one stack per second, if two survivors are on any gen at the same time, they repair 0.85 stacks per second and so on. Of course those numbers could be different, depending on the impact they have, but overall I think this could be a decent solution to the solo gen speed.
I'm interested what you guys think about this so please tell me your opinion on this
I think they should inverse the penalty. You shouldn't get a penalty for working together, you should get a penalty for NOT working together on gens. That way killers can apply pressure to multiple survivors at once. Tweak the numbers how you want, but basically you should WANT to group up. This would also actually help newer players out quite a bit because instinctively when you first start playing you think grouping up is what you should do when actually it is the opposite.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
I mean that's happens to all popular killers tho.
Billy was rare killer before and people who was playing him was not super competive players. I mean why would you play weak killer if you want to sweat? They were just enjoying him because they loved him.
But now, Billy got some very good buffs. And he is pretty strong killer. So even competive players are playing him now. And we all know, those people will do anything to win.
Do you say the same about survivors who run SWF on coms and send people to garden of joy? Or is it only killers who "play to win and sweat"
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Forums seem to be bugged right now and i can't edit the OP, here is the link to the 2nd level:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/405310/saving-bloodpoints-tome-18-level-2/p1
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
Thankfully, this proved to be wrong second time.
First was gen kick meta which was strongest ant-gen ever. Killers were getting amazing slowdown, even without hooking survivors.
And did this stopped tunnelling? Heck, no. They tunnelled even more because DS nerfed to ground and OtR was not good enough to stop tunnelling. Even adding obsession to all matches did not change anything, why would you scare of DS anymore when nerfed version was barely doing anything.
And second, Lights Out. This mode is the most killerside thing ever i saw in DBD. And i am playing this game since 2018. It's really so easy and chill to play killer in this mode. Survivors have no perks, no items. The only downside killers have is no slowdown on gens but chases are pretty fast. So you really don't need gen regression perks anyway.
So everything should be good right? Killer is power role, they can chill and have fun. But no, ofcourse not. Even in this mode, it was tunnelling & proxy camping everywhere. Except some meme'ing killers, most of games was sweat-fest.
Now this argument is so popular, if killers had fair chance to stop survivors, they would not tunnel or proxy camp. But any time we get this, it's just proving to be wrong. People are always going to tunnel and proxy camp because it's easiest way to win. Why you would bother yourself for spreading hooks when you can make game 3 v 1 and get your easy win.
This is not Us vs Them. This is just the fact i saw from my exp. You can have different opinion ofcourse and that's totally fine. But i just don't think it's good idea to make killers power role without nerfing tunnelling and proxy camp to ground and making them non-viable. And that's ofcourse won't happen because BHVR is fine with both strategies. And this brings us to this: Killers should never be buffed in general, except some weak killers most of them are just fine.
The problem with your assessment?
Lights out has no perks, which means you get 0 gen slowdown. Yes, as i always say in every single one of these types of threads, this mode is rough for the AVERAGE solo queue survivor. Which i had a great time playing most of my games, playing very chill matches where i could play low tier killers like trapper and have a good time. Then what happened after i played around 5 of these fun matches? I got a SWF sweat squad on coms that destroyed me and ended a game with 2 hooks and not a single kill in a match that lasted about 3.5-4 minutes.
The problem is, and always will be SWF. Because the killer does not KNOW ahead of time, that they are playing against a team like that, they MUST start the game off super sweaty, because if they don't, and it turns out they are going against a team like that, then they are pretty much guaranteed a loss. And, if the killer starts off super sweaty, by the time they realize that the survivors are NOT a SWF sweat squad, its too late, the average solo queue survivors have already given up.
The game will never be fair, for anyone, not for killers, and not for solo queue survivors, until SWF are dealt with in some way. There are basically 3 possible ways to "fix" the problem that is SWF:
1) Completely get rid of them, make solo queue the only way to play the game.
- This will never happen, because playing with friends is too important, but for anyone who was around at the start, you will KNOW that you originally could NOT queue up with your friends. Eventually we got KYF which let you play custom matches with your friends, but even then SWF queue didn't come till much later. The game was never designed with SWF in mind, and it still shows to this day.
2) Tell killers they are playing with SWF ahead of time
- This tells the killer from the beginning, before the match has started, what kind of players they are going against, and how they will need to play. If i see a team of 4 SWF, i know i'm in for a rough match, and i will need to play super sweaty against them. But, if i see 4 randos playing together, i know i can take it easy, play a more chill match, maybe farm with them a little, and everyone can have more fun. Yeah, you'll see some killers lobby dodge the SWF, but you already see that now anyway when it shows that everyone is playing on the same platform.
3) Create a separate queue for SWF. You create a ranked mode, that you MUST queue up as 4 survivors if you want to play survivor, and that mode is balanced differently than the main mode (I.E. Perk restrictions, longer gens, weaker structures, slower survivor movement speed, addon restrictions from killer [no myers instakill] etc.). Conversely, the solo queue mode is also balanced differently (DS/OTR/Kindred basekit, shorter gens, etc.)
- This is the most likely solution i would see them implement, because it solves multiple problems. People now have their sweaty tryhard mode that they can play, show off their rank, and then there is your simple chill mode where everyone is having a good time for everyone. That's not to say you won't have tryhard killers go into the solo queue mode, but that is solved by balancing the game differently.
Now, that's not to say that people would suddenly stop tunneling. The "problem" with tunneling and the reason i bring up SWF and generally "sweaty" players is simple. These people are playing to win, and tunneling is often the most effective way to win the game as a killer. Because, and you know this to be true, the game is fundamentally designed in a way that with 4 survivors in the game, they will eventually beat the killer, so, it stands to reason that the most effective way to secure a victory for the killer, is to eliminate a survivor as fast as possible.
The only way you are going to fix this problem, is by having the devs change that. Stop balancing the game around kills, and start balancing the game around hooks and chases, and make tunneling fundamentally IMPOSSIBLE in terms of game mechanics. (I.E. survivors share hook states, or some other mechanic that makes tunneling impossible.
I'll close this by showing an excerpt from a free e-book by game designer David Sirlin that i quote quite often, but think is quite relevant here the book is called Playing to Win, and you can find it at https://sirlin.net/ptw
The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.
Now, everyone begins as a poor player—it takes time to learn a game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, one can become a top player. In reality, the “scrub” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game even before deciding which game to play. His problem? He does not play to win.
The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. Let’s take a fighting game off of which I’ve made my gaming career: Street Fighter.
In Street Fighter, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone is often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield that will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.
You will not see a classic scrub throw his opponent five times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimizes his chances of winning? Here we’ve encountered our first clash: the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary. If you beat a scrub by throwing projectile attacks at him, keeping your distance and preventing him from getting near you—that’s cheap. If you throw him repeatedly, that’s cheap, too. We’ve covered that one. If you block for fifty seconds doing no moves, that’s cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap. Street Fighter was just one example; I could have picked any competitive game at all.
Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is a tactic close to my heart that often elicits the call of the scrub. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can’t counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn’t I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.
A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the scrub has, but we know his objective is not truly to win. Yours is. Your objective is good and right and true, and let no one tell you otherwise. You have the power to dispatch those who would tell you otherwise, anyway. Simply beat them.
TLDR: stop blaming the players for using the strategy that is most likely going to give them the win, and start blaming the devs for allowing that strategy to exist.
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@JeanGreyarea said:
Just asking
@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
Honestly i bored so fast.
It's easy and boring, there is no challange when you play this mode as killer. And survivors have no chance, i won't surprise if killrate is higher than 80%.
Its a fun novelty, but it exemplifies this games biggest problems. The average solo queue survivor stands even less of a chance in this mode than they do in the regular one, and SWF on coms are far stronger than they are in the regular game, leading to 0 hook 5 gen rush games against them.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645603#Comment_3645603
You didn't encounter ANY camping or tunneling? Really? At all?
Nothing that was obviously intentional, outside of 1 situation where i unhooked a teammate and they spent the entire time body blocking instead of running away.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645548#Comment_3645548
So why killers are camping and tunnelling in Lights Out mode? Heck, even they are slugging people for 4K.
That's mode pretty much favors killers. Survivors have not strong items or perks. So chases are most likely faster. But yet, killers are still going after one survivor who is just unhooked. Maybe people just love easy games?
I personally didn't encounter that once.
But to answer your question? Because without gen defense, the gens go even faster in that mode. Try playing against a SWF with coms on that mode and tell me how it goes.
I'd also bet more truthfully, that the MMR for this mode is much more wonky, leading to matches being more wild in that regard.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645548#Comment_3645548
I don't disagree. The game should be balanced around hooks/chases over kills/escapes.
But the game is not currently. So I find it odd to ask for a nerf that wouldn't stop tunneling because the user played inefficiently.
I don't think an honor system will stop tunneling. It has to be a hard-drawn line by the devs with ample compensation due to a loss of a playstyle.
The "honor system" would be a good start though.
You balance the game around chases and hooks, and then introduce systems to fix tunneling similar to AFC.
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@WolfyWood said:
The first sentence of your post is admitting to playing suboptimally then ends with you asking for a survivor nerf so you can play suboptimally and still win.
I don't get it.
Probably because people don't WANT to tunnel and camp to win contrary to popular belief. Most killers want to go for multiple chases on multiple survivors rather than cheesing out a victory.
Don't you think it would be better if the game was balanced in a way that playing optimally was actually spreading pressure around and not going out of your way to eliminate someone as fast as possible? You'd see far less people camp and tunnel if it wasn't the most optimal way to win.
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@baharuto48 said:
It's funny because when I started the Match as survivor I thought man this would be nuts to be ghostface people couldn't even see you to run and hide and you still get your stalking power so you can see the survivors when you're stalking! Unbelievable that anybody would play any killer other than ghost face or maybe Myers in this lights out. I see a lot of Chucky but I think it's because people think he's small and he can use his power to make his red stain disappear but but whatever. No warning and then bang ghost face got you. I think the player realized just how powerful ghostface is in this darkness because they were doing the hook everybody once and then repeat spread the hooks out thing and still destroyed us.
Why would you play a stealth killer when the event give you the ability of a stealth killer? You are definitely far more lethal as a leatherface or a skull merchant who makes 0 noises than a ghostface.
Ghostface has that massively loud "woosh" sound effect when he is nearby that you can't get rid of this event, so it is obvious when he is near you.
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increasing the chase time by 20% was pretty significant. Even survivor main apologists like hens new it was massively overpowered.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645409#Comment_3645409
I'm pretty sure it got nerfed because people were complaining about how strong it was in a camping scenario plus the usage rate. Should note we got the anti-facecamp mechanic the patch before the STBFL nerf, so really a case of BHVR acting before letting the dust settle, but wouldn't be the first time.
Though STBFL was never the best way to facecamp either. Many killer powers have shorter CDs without needing to build up stacks.
Right, but you don't make the perk useless to fix camping. First of all camping is fixed by AFC. For tunneling, a BETTER change to the perk would have been to make it so when a non-obsession gets unhooked, they become the obsession. That way you are heavily discouraged from tunneling the person right off the hook.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645387#Comment_3645387
I wouldn't say it was core on Trapper. It was good on him, but you could play without it.
The only killer who I would say it was remotely mandatory on was Deathslinger after they nerfed his ability to quickscope.
Point still stands. It was a good perk on killers that were already struggling. So why are we nerfing it?
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@ThanksForDaily said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3645310#Comment_3645310
Never needed a nerf??? The perk was simply busted for a long time.
STBFL was a perk that was good on low tier killers. Nurse/blight/spirit don't care and don't use it. Why are we nerfing perks that are core on trapper?
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@babayagasaga said:
Hey y'all, hoping someone can answer this question for me. Since in Lights Out mode killers don't have a terror radius, and Doctor's Static Blast is dependent on your terror radius, does that mean static blast just doesn't have any effect? Hoping I'm wrong, because it seems like a heck of a thing to overlook and a shame that he won't have half his power for a whole week.
So, legion still works in this mode and legion's power works on terror radius. Doctor should also work in theory. I did play a game with doctor though and found it really hard to pinpoint using the power, but it definitely wasn't 0 meters as i was hitting people with it. I'm thinking that maybe its not quite working right on doctor or that maybe its just much harder to hit with due to how the mode works.
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@Skitten56 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638321#Comment_3638321
They shouldn't fix it at all in my opinion. There is nothing broken with having a larger blind angle when you have a larger field of view. Setting your FOV up high gives you a competitive advantage. I think it is perfectly reasonable that this advantage comes with a small drawback in return.
Sounds good, make the heartbeat have a downside now.
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@Peanits said:
This is our first modifier, so we're still experimenting to find what works best. There's a couple reasons why it's only available for a limited time, but a big one is to help get matches going in the modifier. If it were available permanently, there would eventually come a point where the novelty wears off for many people and they move on, leading to extremely long queue times for the few people who still want to play it. Like an event, we'd like for modifiers to be fun things that pop up from time to time that people are excited to take part in.
There will be more modifiers in the future, though, and it's not out of the question that popular modes could return in the future. Any feedback is welcome!
Once you get a few modes that exist, please just have it be a rotating mode that is always available at all times. Like, every week we get a new mode, and it rotates in and out what it is, so that there is always some fun mode to play outside of regular queues.
Then if you make a new mode and people don't like it, you can easily take it out, tweak it and rotate it back in a couple months later, or take it out of the rotation completely.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3644346#Comment_3644346
Except in that case, why is Distortion being singled out as the problem?
If the survivor they're looking for is participating normally in the game flow, why can't the killer find them? And if they're not participating in the game flow, what's to stop that survivor from just sitting in a locker all game?
Why is it distortion that creates this issue, and not the aura reading removing all effort on the part of the killer?
Is it that the killer couldn't find them, or couldn't be bothered to?
Remember back in the day when BBQ & Chili was an extremely common pick and everyone learned to hop in a locker when a survivor was about to be hooked? What happened to that? Why is that now suddenly a bad thing?
Or is the bad thing actually that these survivors are just playing an incredibly poor macro-game, and Distortion is just a symptom, not the cause?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3644370#Comment_3644370
Right in the wake of the MFT nerfs, the crosshairs immediately shifted onto Distortion to be the next survivor perk that should be put to the grave. Repackaging the same deal but with a 'how do you do, fellow survivors?' spiel doesn't impress me.
Why's Distortion being singled out as the problem, as opposed to the power creep of information perks on the killer side?
Most of my matches, if survivors were on a gen, I would find them. If they weren't, they were not my problem. But apparently this gameplay element got switched to auto-pilot somewhere along the way where the killer just triggers an info perk and clicks the red blot instead.
And now this thread's here to try and pass the bill to the survivors.
Distortion is not the problem here. If you don't want to tunnel, you don't tunnel. If you can't find someone because they're using distortion, then you can't find them without your perks finding them for you.
'But what if they're over in a random empty corner where they have no reason to go?'
Then they don't need Distortion, they just need a locker. Nerfing Distortion won't make a lick of difference. And yes, that kind of playstyle also existed long before Distortion was buffed into viability, and it'll continue long after Distortion gets crippled.
Please, take a step back, and examine yourself.
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@Thralfazuz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3644414#Comment_3644414
I'm talking about survivors items in chest what does the killer power has to do with my initial comment?
You said "when you can't see auras" So i'm simply stating that auras do in fact work.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3644430#Comment_3644430
This game isn't designed to be competitive. But it is what a large part of the community wants. I'd love it also. :)
I'd wonder how such a thing would function in dbd. Ranked... is just whatever can be used? Would there be perk restrictions? I'd love to see how someone would set this up. Genuinely curious!
I'd say leave it like it is currently for now. Then they can be smart, and start balancing modes differently.
For example, the rotating game modes don't have to really be "balanced" and they can even tweak the balance of specific killers for each rotating mode. But for the ranked mode they can make the balance different.
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3644393#Comment_3644393
Doc can't find people. No TR = no zap.
His zapping works, so does legion. I think instead of just "removing" the terror radius, they just muted it is it makes no sound, and disabled the heartbeat.
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@UnknownKiller said:
Change my mind
Yes but also no.
I think they should set it up moving forward such that there is always SOME special rotating game mode going on at all times. And cycle them around. Then retool the "regular" queue to be the "Ranked mode" that everyone asks for. Show your rank/MMR, and give rewards based on that.
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@Seraphor said:
Nope. I use Surge fairly regularly and I haven't seen any gen hit the limit yet.
I've seen the early warning spikes a few times, and I wonder if some people mistake that for the regression limit, particularly if they're using things like Surge instead of manually kicking a gen, in which case you wouldn't necessarily know that the spikes meant you can still kick it.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643557#Comment_3643557
Having the system in play before the final gen actually puts the onus on the survivors to break a 3 gen early.
If it only kicked in at the last gen, then the killer would be able to camp out a 3 gen from the start of the game. Survivor's wouldn't be able to make progress there so would ultimately just ignore the 3 gen and repair the other four first. Leading to a dull game for everyone with a 3 gen standoff at the end, even if it's not an infinite stalemate.
Instead survivors now have incentive to try to break the killers 3 gen early on, because they have the regression limit to fall back on. This gives the killer greater pressure in defending gens at the start of the game instead of allowing survivors to just abandon gens until the first four are repaired.
The goal of gen defence isn't to perpetually halt repair progress, it's to lure survivors into compromising positions so you can score downs.
If you're doing that effectively, you won't ever need 8 regression events, particularly when it comes to down-triggered regression events like Surge, Eruption, Pop and Pain Res.
The problem is the opposite though. As a killer you don't WANT to hit that scenario, because if you do you lose. Yeah you can drag the game out, but by design you lose every time. So if they only made it count during the 3 gen, and then lowered the count to say, 4 regression events, i think it would work out much better.
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@Thralfazuz said:
keys without addons do jack #########, guess what maps do when you can't see auras
Auras definitely still work, i played trapper and when people step in your traps you still see their aura.
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@dwight444 said:
def a fair expectation to think your game mode would be compatible with all available killers within said game. as usual seems like half effort on their part and just wanting to push something out just like the player cards
it being a limited event and serving as a test is prob the only reason I could see them not fully fleshing it out before release but still, it's disappointing cause it follows a clear pattern at this point that's hard to ignore
There are 30+ killers in the game, and only 1 of them doesn't work. If anything its actually part of the test itself, to make sure that if there are new game modes in the future that are broken by specific killers, they can killswitch those specific killers in those matches.
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@skylerbound said:
I want to maximise fun over “winning,” so my personal choices are Bubba, Myers, and Twins(not slug twins) .
what are yours?
Just tried out trapper and it was pretty fun. I got lerys but it was actually good still and i landed a few traps. Including a game winning one where 2 people stepped on 2 nearby traps at about the same time.
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@skylerbound said:
I want to maximise fun over “winning,” so my personal choices are Bubba, Myers, and Twins(not slug twins) .
what are yours?
I'm thinking the best killers are going to be ones like:
- Doctor for finding survivors easily
- Myers for the instakill factor
- Onryo for the teleporting around
- Bubba for the insta down
- Nemesis for the zombies actually being decent
- Plague for forcing survivors injured or getting your power
Honestly there are a ton of potential picks here its pretty interesting. Most of the low tier killers actually become good, while the high tier ones (nurse/blight/spirit) have a much harder time.
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@IHSGames said:
I've had this thought recently that might sound VERY far-fetched and 100% could be wrong, but it's a thought I had nonetheless. Is there a possibility that BVHR is purposely messing up balancing in Dead By Daylight?
You might say "thats the worst thing I've ever heard. The devs make changes but they don't always appeal to everyone" which is fair but let's think about this. There's so many voices in the DBD community that there's no way there isn't certain key issues everyone on either Survivor Or Killer side that they've discussed that both can mutally agreed should be balanced. But either A: ignore the outcry B: Take forever to make changes which either A: Are bad chabges or B: Are good changes.
BHVR has made some good changes in the past. Multiple times. They can't be miracles either because theres no way BHVR just randomly try to fix issues for no reason and hope it works. Which means theyre aware of what theyre doing for Balancing and possibly is purposely skewing Balancing to be bad or...eh, majority of the time.
You might ask "Why is this the case?" Well, if you see ANYTHING DBD related, what's keeping them in relevancy is alot of chatter around the community. Critiques, video discussions on Balancing all bring people in to discuss DBD. This also causes a bi-prodict of toxicity videos due to unbalanced issues in the game, adding more discussion, thus adding more press and relevancy to DBD.
Imagine if DBD focused HEAVILY on Balancing for a few months and fix MAJORITY of the game's fundemental issues. Tunneling, unblanced perks, buffing weaker killers, map revamps that actually balance the maps, etc, it would be an amazing patch. For the next few months, everyone will be in awe and talk about it. Of course there will be outliers.
But what happens then? Majority of the issues are fixed. Besides new chapters and mid-chapters, theres nothing really to discuss about in DBD so heavily. That leads to less takk which leads to less press. Sure, the players are happy, but it doesn't bring DBD press. In order for DBD to remain relevant, they will have to either A: mess up something in the game to have people discuss again (whichbis what they might be doing) or B: add more gameplay elements to the game.
With B: That would mean BVHR can't release a chapter every 3 months with a killer with a recycled power and/or a copy-paste survivor. They will have to add new things to the game such as new Survivor items, more interactive elements in maps, new killer mechanics. The last one they made was the End Game collapse which was YEARS ago. They can't/won't make new gameplay elements because they take too long to make/don't rake in enough money to justify it's investment.
Easiest thing BVHR can do is rebalance the game into a mixed state. Keep bad things in the game to bring discussion but do some good things to keep players faith so they don't fully leave. It cost less money while bring maximum relevancy/profit.
Thoughts?
I wouldn't say they are doing it "on purpose" at first i thought that they had no idea what they are doing. Then they recently have made some great changes, like billy, but then in the same patch they nerf sadako because of "tunneling" and the nerf literally re-promotes the style of gameplay they were trying to avoid.
In the same patch they "fix 3 genning" but in the most convoluted way, when there were far simpler and easier ways to do it.
In the same patch, they buffed up base kick regression, but they allowed survivors to "gen tap" and have wiretap on forever, even after we told them this.
In the same patch, they buff ruin, but the wrong part of it.
In the same patch, they nerf STBFL.
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Cheryl Main
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@Firellius said:
Are you that helpless without your aura perks? Can you not find them on your own?
Take a step back and examine yourself a bit.
This person made a thread, talking about how when survivors run distortion, it usually backfires in their games because it causes them to get tunneled out. And your FIRST instinct is to say: "why do you suck so bad you can't win without using a perk"