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Pulsar
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011245#Comment_4011245
I can do nothing to change how you feel, but don't put words in my mouth simply because you disagree with my position.
No words are being put in your mouth. If you're against punishing people for DCing then you're on the side of DCing. It's that simple to me. I apologise if you feel that's unjust, but I really do believe that.
The system we have already bans innocent players. Anti Go-Next grabs people who get tunneled already. Any attempts to make the system stricter or to expand the scope will grab more innocent players. That is what will happen.
Pray tell, where have you seen me ask for the go-next prevention system to be made any stricter? Where have you seen me mention that system at all in fact? I'm talking about DC penalties and DC penalties alone. THEY need to be stricter. Going next in that manner was adequately addressed by removing escape attempts. The solution to preventing give ups is to make it inconvenient — not impossible.
I suspect you know that the community will never come together like that
Yeah because y'all are refusing to take a stand on it. Handwaving it away with "Well frustrations have been mounting for a long time" every time this gets brought up does nothing to help. It's completely inconsequential whether or not they've been mounting for a day, a week, a month, or years. It's completely inconsequential whether said frustrations even exist. The point is that a lot of players are engaing in rulebreaking, unsportsmanlike behaviour and it should be dealt with (whatever the reason behind it) as rulebreaking, unsportsmanlike behaviour. And instead of that the comments on these posts are always just feeding into it.
It is theoretically possible that it would work out the way you hope if they did, but they will not unite on this.
It would 100% work but y'all aren't doing it so idek what to say. Again, this is a problem that the players themselves have cooked up.
Every time we have tried to play wack-a-mole with this issue, it simply slides and turns into something else.
Well, yeah. Because when they address one part of it (like removing unhook attempts) they weaken the other half of it (DC penalties). If you make it harder to go next on hook but then give people multiple free DCs a day of course the problem won't be solved. They just self sabotaged their own solution. Revert DC penalties to be as strict as they were previously, and the DCs will go down. That's it. All of this slippery slope talk is just that — talk. It won't happen. The automated system to detect going next is silly — it'll never work ina game with so many variables. But a simple DC penalty and inability to let go on hook WILL. No one is going to hatch these convoluted plans to get around all of the proposed penalties you keep listing because A) those additional penalties won't be needed and B) It's too much effort, and the chronic DCers will just stop playing.
You have to be prepared to see this path through to the logical conclusion, which is trying to police intent
I do not understand the insistence on taking this to extreme hypotheticals. The game is not going to drop dead if they toughen the DC penalties, please. All they need is to test it. Give it a month, and if it doesn't work revert it and no harm was done. But if it does work — which it WILL — then perfect. Problem solved.
Still not what I'm saying. I am against further punishment without addressing common pain points.
Because we have never seen a flat-out reduction in "give up" events. We have seen them shift from DC'ing into suicides back into DC'ing. If we continue to double-down and never address anything else, we will start to see calls for further policing.
This point is just moronic, and I don't think you really mean it. Of course it matters what causes it. Of course it matters why people are frustrated. Whether or not you think it's justified is down to personal opinion at the end of the day, but saying it doesn't matter why is just silly.
I suppose we'll see. Considering that pretty much everything I predicted would happen when DC penalties got introduced as happened, I think I'm probably right. Especially if nothing else changes.
BHVR doesn't revert things like that. Neither will you. Even if it doesn't work, we'll be stuck with it because the second you say the phrase, "We're loosening penalties" people will go absolutely feral and DC en masse. Nobody will want that, so they'll keep the system.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011287#Comment_4011287
IT IS NO SYSTEM!!! LITERALLY!!!
You aren't getting DC ban that strict anymore, you literally can freely DC without punishment two times per 24 hours
And yet we have people in here claiming they see DC's in a third of their matches, iirc.
People are getting the penalties. They just don't care.
I have no idea if that's true, for the record. The last update I heard was that it was match-based. You have to play a certain number of matches in order to clear the record. I haven't heard any announcements stating this was changed. Do you have any of that information so I can read it?
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011256#Comment_4011256
Why it doesn't work? Before they removed penalty for first dc, DC was much less occurrence
Again. This people must to be punished for saving teammates and griefing. I don’t care
There were still huge threads about DCs.
They are being punished, literally as we speak. You are acting like there's no system in place.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011243#Comment_4011243
No one is saying the game shouldn't improve QoL. But allowing this behavior or trying to justify it is still unacceptable. Like, this is literally sabotaging of the whole gameplay. How to even sympathise such people and listen them?
How are we allowing it? There are penalties. They don't really work.
Why should we continue to dump time and resources into a system that doesn't work?
QoL has a chance to positively impact both the DC rate, and thereby the quality of the average match, AND simultaneously improve the normal player experience. Why shouldn't we focus on that?
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Dunno.
Historically? Could be years.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011167#Comment_4011167
My advocacy is for addressing root problems instead of band-aid fixing things, not for DC'ing. I am stating again that I am not advocating for DC'ing, but rather for addressing causes.
And I'm telling you that I don’t think the root causes exist and so your advocacy starts and ends with defending DCing IMO. It's a symptom of bad atittude and not any problem with game balance. As evidenced by the fact that this problem has ALWAYS existed regardless of the state of game balance, and happens consistently regardless of the state of the match.
Like I said, I do not know why you brought it up. It is clear that the reasons do not matter to you, so I do not know why you brought up what you thought people were DC'ing over. Even if it wasn't trivial, in your opinion, it wouldn't matter.
The reason doesn't matter to me, but it does to you. Which is why I brought it up. I'm trying to explain that the "frustrated with game issues" argument doesn't track, because these people are giving up left and right in games where said issues are NOT even happening. A match can be going as well as humanly possible for one side and they'll still just DC. You would've been correct a year or two ago when DCs were mostly reserved for a very early down, or a tunnel out, or some other situation that seems untenable. But these people have taken it too far and now just give up over anything or nothing. There's no rhyme or reason to it anymore. You can play the least offensive Killer possible, in the least offensive way and they're still going to DC. So the "average game is miserable and that's why they DC" thing just doesn't work. Because even when the games are good, they're STILL abandoning. Therefore the conclusion I come to is that these people don’t like DbD.
So BHVR should continue to add in Killers like SM? Things they know people hate and people should just take it, right? That's the right thing to do? They should release more Killers like Krasue and Ghoul in an extremely overpowered state and then never adjust them. I don't think either attitude is entirely correct.
No. They should try their best to find a balance between fun to play and fun to verse. But naturally, they're not always going to get it right and sometimes there's Killers you hate for non-balance reasons. Of course BHVR needs to address the former ASAP, but the latter is inevitable and people need to accept that that is just part of the game and that if they want to play it, they're going to see such characters. DCing is not an appropriate response (unless there's medical reasons like your migraines, but that's an accessibility issue and not what most of these players are doing).
and then start banning normal players! Make no mistake, that's exactly what you are asking for.
You're intentionally taking my point and conflating it with the most extreme position someone could possibly hold on this issue in order to discredit me. No, normal players shouldn't be banned.
Let's break down exactly what will happen. You will never achieve your first objective, and I suspect you already know that.
No. I don't know that. I truly, wholeheartedly, believe that if people stopped responding in this manner to DCing that it would go away. Seriously. I legitemately think that it's a behaviour that is primarily being enabled by the community. You might think that's naive, but I truly believe that. 100%.
We up the DC penalty. Let's say we make it far more punishing, the first is an hour ban. The second is a 24-hour ban. Three times? A week. So on and so forth.
What will people do? Well, they can't DC and they can't suicide. They will AFK.
Alright, well, let's ban for inactivity, same penalties as before.
Now they can't AFK, DC or suicide. People start running to the Killer.
We can ban for that too, if you get hit without making enough distance post-hit, you get banned like if you DC'd!
Now they can't DC, run to Killer, suicide or AFK! People start soft-throwing chases.
Now you have to start banning for intent.
No, they won't. People are greatly perturbed by minor inconveniences. As soon as giving up becomes any more involved than having to hit a DC button or let go on hook, most of the playerbase doing it will stop. Of course there will be a determined minority who will go to great lengths to bypass anything you do, but most won't. It's human nature. As soon as you make it even a little bit more tricky, most reconsider. It’s the principle behind a great many things in society.
All that needs doing is to make it so the first DC is no longer free. 60 seconds or maybe 2 minute for the first DC. It’s short enough not to be overly punishing for legitimate emergencies/crashes but long enough to make players have to wait before their next match so they can no longer DC and be in another game within 30 seconds.
Most of your list is moot because:
A. Most of these things are bannable anyways. AFKing is already detected and punished.
B. It would never come to this anyways, at least not for most players. Most people value their time enough that if “going next” involves having to run to the Killer and go through all the hooks/unhooks that they’ll deem it not worth it.
I can do nothing to change how you feel, but don't put words in my mouth simply because you disagree with my position.
What I am trying to say is that this has been building over years. It isn't justified, but I have been able to see this coming since at least 2021. People have reached their breaking point with DBD, and yes, they should take a break. It clearly isn't doing them any good sticking around. However, this has been building for a long time. I am sure the recent walk-back of changes and then the release of Krasue has intensified these feelings.
The system we have already bans innocent players. Anti Go-Next grabs people who get tunneled already. Any attempts to make the system stricter or to expand the scope will grab more innocent players. That is what will happen.
I will rephrase. I suspect you know that the community will never come together like that. It is theoretically possible that it would work out the way you hope if they did, but they will not unite on this.
No. If people aren't having fun, they will find a way to give up. Even when DC penalties were at their strictest, there was a ton of DC'ing and giving up.
Every time we have tried to play wack-a-mole with this issue, it simply slides and turns into something else. People will always find a way to get out of a game they find unfun. That is human nature. You have to be prepared to see this path through to the logical conclusion, which is trying to police intent. If not, perhaps we should reconsider?
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@tes said:
Here's the thing, we have tried the carrot with tunneling. We've seen what happens when Killers have a ton of regression and no "need" to tunnel. Eruption, CoB, PR, Pop, Overcharge, Corrupt etc etc. Huge amounts of regression and still we saw a ton of tunneling, camping and slugging.
Maybe that's show people will do this no matter what?
So, maybe following your own logic, giving carrot to survivors won’t stop them to DC?
I'm truly amazed at how, without my intervention, you continue to bury your own arguments with contradictions that you create yourself. “We aren’t sure in outcome” doesn't matter. Because it's the most baffling argument person could ever provide in such topic. You also don’t know outcome of proper DC ban, just this thing demolish such unstable position.
That's why I don’t really like such discussions on this forum. As soon as you try to argue somehow objectively , people trying to throw emotional sentiment and hypothesis without proofs, calling it valid experience that should be prevalent. But as soon as you show it contradicts to some cases, they urgently call “it's different”, “but fun is more important”, or something else that doesn't actually correlate to PvP genre or balancing
Like I said immediately following that statement, it is entirely possible that it won't solve the issue. I am not clairvoyant. I do not see the future; I do not know the hearts and minds of every player, and I admit as such.
What I do know is that there's no harm in say, making matches worth staying in. I know there's no harm in helping out Solo Q with new emotes or a communication wheel.
What else do I know? I know what we've been doing hasn't been working.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011168#Comment_4011168
People still play no matter what. Just being honestly - majority of people I know who left this game are killer mains. On survivor side, is more a tendency of DCing without actuall point later. So that's why
PTB and your words have correlation. You can’t say “Banning DCing is too punishable, you can’t address it like this”, while at the same time defending PTB. The CORE system of PTB was about punishing people for playing not in way some people want. It can’t be fixed by tweaks, because the CORE mechanism of anti tunnell is to punish. And PTB wasn't addressing core issue of tunnelling; incentives wasn’t enough, while gen rush was even buffed in twice. Because it's impossible to fix tunnelling due to a nature of 1 vs 4 assym genre. 4 players will always be strongest at their max in point, and just the fact that it can exist doesn't allow killers to get rid of idea to tunnel.
But yeah, you called it people crying over game being more difficult, thats why your arguments doesn't seem sincere and is more about defending some emotional sentiment here
For me? Everyone I used to play with played both roles, but pretty much everyone is gone now. Game is very different than how it was when we started.
Ah, I see.
Here's the thing, we have tried the carrot with tunneling. We've seen what happens when Killers have a ton of regression and no "need" to tunnel. Eruption, CoB, PR, Pop, Overcharge, Corrupt etc etc. Huge amounts of regression and still we saw a ton of tunneling, camping and slugging.
We have never tried that with DC'ing. Maybe it'll be different, maybe it won't. I hardly think addressing stuff like how terrible Survivor BP gains are, how low the Shard gain is, how bad some of the challenges are or how you can be removed from the match would make the game worse.
I expected people wouldn't like the changes. People hate when their role gets changed, no matter how needed it might be. I didn't expect that BHVR would immediately cave and likely scrap the system entirely when they've pushed much worse things to Live and not cared.
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@BOFH said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011167#Comment_4011167
I think the point of covering loopholes with punishments is that eventually those players will either quit the game entirely (which means nothing of much value was lost) or they will finally get tired of being slapped around by the punishment system and play the game they started up and queued for.
I realize this is anecdotal, but I noticed match quality massively improved when self-unhook attempts were removed, and then BHVR loosened the parameters of the Go Next Prevention system and everything went downhill again because actually innocent people were reasonably annoyed at catching strays.
That system was also punishing completely innocent players, and in fact, still is.
I cannot believe people are advocating for MORE of that, because make no mistake, that's what we will be
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@BOFH said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011160#Comment_4011160
I think what he's trying to say is that survivors constantly disconnecting does not affect any metrics that might cause BHVR to panic and reassess the situation.
A player who queues for matches and then disconnects is still an online player who facilitates matchmaking and could potentially buy DLC.
The reason why killers keep getting their way, such as with the MFT nerfs and the backtracking on tunneling and slugging changes is that killers, as an entire whole, stated they would (and in the case of the MFT era, actually did) stop playing entirely.
I'm not talking "They started up the game and started disconnecting from matches," either.
I'm talking about not even starting up the game in the first place, and in the case of the recent tunneling and slugging changes, a lot of killer players outright uninstalled and walked away from the game entirely.
This means there were a whole lot of killer players at a bare minimum threatening to kneecap BHVR's revenue stream by not buying DLC anymore, and a bunch of them may have actually followed through on that threat.
Compare that to survivors who chronically ragequit, who do not meaningfully impact BHVR's bottom line, and it's really quite trivial to figure out which group BHVR is going to listen to.
I would agree with that then.
Although apparently the DC'ing is getting people to quit. Which is apparently the goal?
I dunno. BHVR does listen to the money, but they always have a stream of new players, so I just don't think we'll see any changes until it's far too late.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011129#Comment_4011129
Saying something isn't going to have the effect you think it will isn't defending an action. That's called criticism of an idea.
If you want to obfuscate it that badly then sure. Your advocacy for giving up (which is explicity against the game's rules) to go unpunished totally doesn't enable said behaviour. Right.
You can see into the hearts and minds of your opponents? You can see what is going on? You saw their previous matches? You saw everything their teammates did? You claim, so assuredly, that you know why. I think that's rather arrogant and likely contributes to your view. Of course, the real thing here is that it doesn't matter why. I'm not even sure why you brought it up.
There's no justifiable reason for abandoning your matches except for real-life obligations/emergencies. And there's ZERO way that these people are having an emergency every other match. No ifs and buts. No "but what about their previous matches?". I don't care about that. I wasn't in their previous matches — I did nothing to make their previous matches bad. Therefore ruining MY match because THEY had bad rounds beforehand will not fly with me. Sorry, no sympathy at all. I don't care anymore. You had several bad matches prior? Okay, then stop playing. Simple.
This "well I had several bad matches in a row and bad teammates and so I was frustrated and that's why I DCed 30 seconds into the game." narrative doesn't work because NO ONE is forcing them to continue to play. They can CLOSE the game, securing their own and everyone else's peace of mind. They are CREATING this problem for themselves and then dragging everyone else down with them. It's completely selfish, indefensible behaviour and ought to be punished in the same way any other rulebreaking is.
Have you considered that things can be unfun without being strong? Legion, for example, isn't a strong Killer but they are uniquely unfun to play against. In yesteryear, we had Old Mori's where you'd get tunneled off of hook and finish the match with 2K BP. The issue is that BHVR keeps adding mechanics and Killers that people hate going against.
Again. Sorry, but I don't care. That's how DbD works. There's 40+ Killers now and it is inevitable not everyone is going to like versing all of them. Strong or weak. Fun or not. I don't care. When you boot up the game you KNOW you could be going against anything, including the Killers you don't like. If you can't handle that maturely, then don't queue.
There are plenty of Killers I hate. Xenomorph for one. Can't stand it. And yet, when I see Xeno, I play the match out anyways. Because I signed up to do so. Because it's a team game and I have an obligaiton to my teammates. That's what being a good sport is. This is how I know the giving up is an attitude problem. Because I have plenty of frustrations with this game and I don't do it. My duo has lots of things they don't like about this game and they don't do it either. There are many, many others in the same boat. With longstanding frustrations who play their games out anyways, because it's the PROPER thing to do. Period.
First off, hacking is tolerated lmao. BHVR gave away millions of free accounts to hackers.
No it isn't. The community does not tolerate hackers in the same way it does give ups. Hackers are almost unanimously hated. No one would ever say "Oh well they're just hacking because they're frustrated with the game." Because we all know it's just not about that. It's an attitude issue. Cheaters break the rules because they don't care about the integrity of the game. I'm sure there are plenty of cheaters who go their cheats because they were losing, but that reason doesn't matter. You still have to be a certain type of person to cheat, regardless of how "understandable" your reasoning behind it is. Giving up is the EXACT same.
But for some reason giving up gets a pass. Whenever it gets brought up you'll have a crowd of people going "Oh but it's just because X, Y, or Z." And it shouldn't. The reason doesn't matter when the action is hurting innocent players. Period.
Also the free acounts thing was a blunder. Obviously BHVR don't endorse people cheating at their own game.
Second of all, how would you even go about this? Eventually, you have to start policing intent and punishing bad play.
This is just making a mountain out of molehill. This issue is easily fixable:
- As a community stop endorsing the "go next" mentality.
- Strengthen the DC penalty system.
That's literally all you need to do.
My advocacy is for addressing root problems instead of band-aid fixing things, not for DC'ing. I am stating again that I am not advocating for DC'ing, but rather for addressing causes.
Like I said, I do not know why you brought it up. It is clear that the reasons do not matter to you, so I do not know why you brought up what you thought people were DC'ing over. Even if it wasn't trivial, in your opinion, it wouldn't matter.
So BHVR should continue to add in Killers like SM? Things they know people hate and people should just take it, right? That's the right thing to do? They should release more Killers like Krasue and Ghoul in an extremely overpowered state and then never adjust them. I don't think either attitude is entirely correct.
Community is different than BHVR, thank you for clarifying.
So, all we need to do is somehow get everyone on the same page by enforcing some kind of groupthink and then start banning normal players! Make no mistake, that's exactly what you are asking for.
Let's break down exactly what will happen. You will never achieve your first objective, and I suspect you already know that.
We up the DC penalty. Let's say we make it far more punishing, the first is an hour ban. The second is a 24-hour ban. Three times? A week. So on and so forth.
What will people do? Well, they can't DC and they can't suicide. They will AFK.
Alright, well, let's ban for inactivity, same penalties as before.
Now they can't AFK, DC or suicide. People start running to the Killer.
We can ban for that too, if you get hit without making enough distance post-hit, you get banned like if you DC'd!
Now they can't DC, run to Killer, suicide or AFK! People start soft-throwing chases.
Now you have to start banning for intent.
Does this seem like a path you wish to pursue?
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011131#Comment_4011131
… That's something.
You are telling punishing players without addressing core issues is bad idea, but as soon as I talked about PTB, it stopped being a matter of this and turned to be different story. And actual cause is people crying because of more difficult matches.
You literally contradict yourself.
Another question: you said you stopped playing, but you also continue to be a member of the community instead of going, playing five seconds of a match, and then DC. What's the problem with EVERYONE doing this without ruining the lives of their teammates?
The person above is absolutely right. DC has always existed, since the days when the game was surv-based. The problem only worsened because the alternative to this behavior, the "going next" system, was removed.Questions about tunneling, genrush, or SFW can remain speculative because they often affect the opposite role and are directly related to balance. But it can be not emotional and rather an actual way of play, that's why punishing this — terrible idea.
DC, However is ALWAYS about emotions. And these emotions harm solo Q ten times more than a hypothetical tunnel. Because there are counters to tunneling in the form of perks and skill, BUT I can't counter the fact that my teammate turned out to be a potato and for some reason continues to play this game he hates instead of uninstalling. And devs won’t listen them. Because as I told two times before, such people still buy stuff and contribute to online.
I told about MFT patch, because it showed that if x side actually show the strike that harms devs mostly, by great loss of online, then that's something actually effective. PTB was cancelled because they don't want to deal with MFT experience twice. Survivors DC? Nothing actually critical, as soon as this same person will continue to play one way or another.
Therefore, I'm all for such players disappearing from the community forever. They'll rant and rave about how this game is ruining their fun, but they'll ignore the sabotage they commit with their own hands. You can’t adress such behaviour without punishment.
Thank you for restating. Sometimes things just don't quite make sense to me, I appreciate it.
I still don't see the correlation. The PTB was an attempt to address some of the core issues on the Survivor side of things. There were tweaks that needed to be made, but instead of giving feedback, people lost their minds. It is possible that the PTB could have helped things, but we will probably never know. I do not see the contradiction, maybe I am blind.
Because it has taken me multiple years to quit DBD. There really isn't anything like it, which makes quitting hard. I've come back for periods of time, like during Anniversary with my friend who just bought the game, but I don't really play much anymore. That friend comes to me every once in a while, and wants to try DBD again, and it's usually the same result. Regardless, it has taken me quite some time to leave DBD entirely and to stop bashing my head against the wall.
Yes, that is what I said. DC's have always happened, and they are worse because we simply shifted the method by which people quit, not addressing why they quit.
We have gone from talking about people who DC to people who just aren't very good. I don't see the connection.
PTB was probably cancelled because some of my fellow Killer mains literally can't cope without tunneling. So yes, I'd agree that by and large, Killers seem to get more things done.
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@BloodBird said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011119#Comment_4011119
If true, commendable stats than my brotha.
I think I average 9 hooks with Wraith and maybe 8 with Oni.
Oni is much better at slugging, and is encouraged to I think, so that's probably why the hooks are lower.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011106#Comment_4011106
I’ll just quote @OnryosTapeRentals here
A lot of the things the chronic DCing crowd complain about are simply unfixable without uprooting the foundations of the game. And considering the game’s age and established player base, attempting to do so would be a horrible idea.
Looking from other perspective is enough to already understand everything.
And the thing that entertains me at most… it’s so funny, how you call punishment of DC unable to justify and meaningless, but as soon as same happened in PTB, we heavily imply “BUT WE TRIED TO ADRESS THE ISSUE!”
This entire thing is
becausepunishments aren't going to work unless there's meaningful change
they backtracked after the majority of Killers lost their minds over having to put in more effort
It’s just a whole pile of hypocrisy here. Apply your own words on people who DC and look at their reaction. They’ll eat you.
Can you restate this? I'm having a difficult time understanding it.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011101#Comment_4011101
I'm not defending it
You are. You're justifying their grievances and advocating for them to not be further punished. By any metric, that's defending it.
That shows this isn't about disconnecting, but about a deeper issue.
Categorically untrue, and you know how I know that? Because the things these people are disconnecting over are completely trivial. You can play perkless, add-onless Killer and you still get DCs. Your team can be dominating the match and a teammate will still disconnect. Had a match yesterday where I was being rolled by a team as Unknown. They got down to the last generator. I down one of them — DC and I end up winning a match I should've lost.
By your own admisison, Survivors have been giving up (in various ways) since before the DC penalty existed. Which was YEARS ago when Survivor was stronger than ever. I used to share the same mindset as you: address concerns about the game and the giving up will stop. But then I realised that they give up regardless of where game balance currently lies. I realised that they give up regardless of the state of the match. They gave up against original Skull Merchant, and even now that Skull Merchant has no real power — she STILL gets DCs. It's absurd. And because of that I've finally understood that it's nothing short of an attitude problem. It has nothing to do with game balance and everything to do with the fact that the community keeps accepting and justifying this behaviour.
If the developers or the community put their feet down and said "enough is enough" it would stop. 100%. No one would ever justify any other type of rulebreaking under the guise of "it's a symptom of a deeper issue". Hacking isn't tolerated. Harassment isn't tolerated. Chronic giving up should not be either.
Saying something isn't going to have the effect you think it will isn't defending an action. That's called criticism of an idea.
You can see into the hearts and minds of your opponents? You can see what is going on? You saw their previous matches? You saw everything their teammates did? You claim, so assuredly, that you know why. I think that's rather arrogant and likely contributes to your view. Of course, the real thing here is that it doesn't matter why. I'm not even sure why you brought it up.
Have you considered that things can be unfun without being strong? Legion, for example, isn't a strong Killer but they are uniquely unfun to play against. In yesteryear, we had Old Mori's where you'd get tunneled off of hook and finish the match with 2K BP. The issue is that BHVR keeps adding mechanics and Killers that people hate going against. The only time I DC consistently is against Dredge. I would rather eat the penalty than be given a migraine by Nightfall, I apologize for that. I am not advocating for doing that, but BHVR could've designed the Killer to…idk not do that?
No, it really wouldn't. First off, hacking is tolerated lmao. BHVR gave away millions of free accounts to hackers.
Second of all, how would you even go about this? Eventually, you have to start policing intent and punishing bad play.
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@BloodBird said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011108#Comment_4011108
Have you ever played a game of killer where you "DIDN'T" tunnel at 5 gens? 🤔
Most of them.
My tunneling days were largely pre-stats.
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@GuardianoftheCrystal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011107#Comment_4011107
They are literally collabing with anime stuff wdym no
It's a kids movie?
Just because he's a good villain doesn't mean he's a horror character or that he belongs in DBD. Will we be adding Syndrome from Incredibles because he's a good villain as well?
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Actual highest is SM because she isn't really that bad lol.
Oni and Wraith are the highest of the Killers I actually want to play.
Stevo and Nancy both hover around 60%.
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No thanks.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010937#Comment_4010937
I still can’t find it justified enough. We all understand why it happens, we just don't support it happening. Why me, for example, never DCed without actually serious reason? Why some people always staying in the game in the worst possible outcome until it’ll be clear - oh, we lost? Why one people do it, and others don’t? Maybe the problem is with the people, not the situation, and some people just enjoy it. You can give them EVERYTHING, and they'll still disconnect. People in anti tunnel PTB was disconnecting MASSIVELY. Because killer didn’t play killer they like. Or because they had map. Or because they got down quickly… Because in PTB, punishment doesn’t exist at all.
Because in this game, it's never had any serious consequences. I'm usually against punishing people and more for rewarding them, but here, this behavior has nothing to do with strategy or any particular way of playing, no matter how much you want to show it. It's literally a refusal to play at all, completely ignoring everyone else in the group. We're seriously trying to say for the hundredth time, "This is burnout"? As if we don't understand that? People who see another DC on 5 gens don't care. Killer don’t care. Devs don’t care, because you still play the game, buy stuff, contribute to online. Don't play the game if you can't handle what's been happening in it for 10 years.Again, the people who doing this showing their frustration, indeed. But it's sabotaging. I just can’t find it fair and understandable. If person is DCing, they are problem themselves and just don’t want to admit it.
DC is sandbagging and unsportsmanlike behaviour. You can find thousand reasons why it exist, but people shouldn’t be able to do this. Not allowed, or facing with real consequences — and such people would be either forced to play in team, or forced to drop this game.
You can try make game more “enjoyable”. But as MFT patch or recent PTB showed, we all know what this enjoyable means. And other part would actually stop playing this game. Which devs simply can’t afford for them. They know- oh, I can’t do X change for killers, because it’s so bad, they’ll stop playing, queue will be worse and etc. But with survivors? They know such people will DC from time to time, but they’ll still queue up. They know it’s other 3. They’ll prefer one killer wait for 5 minutes rather than 4 survivors. Maybe if you want to express your dissatisfaction, it's better to express it... differently. I'm dissatisfied too, but I just stopped buying any additional content for this game, rather than ruin my own role's fun. Some of my friends just stopped to play this game completely. You can do all of this stuff, without spoiling game for others, yk. And if you actually find this game as burn out pile, and half of the people would follow complete ignore of the game, devs will understand it’s something they have to do asap.
I have no idea why you mentioned MFT. Weird.
The anti-tunnel PTB was at least BHVR trying to address a huge complaint, which is that the game is functionally over if someone gets tunneled out. Unfortunately, instead of tweaking it, they backtracked after the majority of Killers lost their minds over having to put in more effort. Extremely disappointed in both the Killer community at large and BHVR.
DC'ing isn't justified. Banning without looking at the root causes is even less justified. All you do is cover up the issue temporarily. This entire thing is because punishments aren't going to work unless there's meaningful change. It is absolutely crazy to me how people can see half a decade of BHVR punishing people for giving up or disconnecting (and recently getting innocent players in the crossfire), see the abject failure of it and complain it isn't solving anything AND THEN turn around and continue to ask for them to do the exact same thing that isn't working.
People do leave, BHVR just pulls another license and gets new people, so it doesn't matter. I also like how you think it's terrible for Killers to leave but Survivors should leave to prove a point. Just an odd difference.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010951#Comment_4010951
I do enjoy the game, if you dont enjoy it, why keep playing?
There is a lot of entitlement in dbd (sadly), and this is nothing new. People are being toxic no matter how clean the killers play, even when being freindly killers sometimes gets insults in the endgame chat.
But as it is today, the game is infested with people DCing for no valid reasons all the time.
Getting hooked, even after looping the killer for 3 gens = DC
Dont like the killer = DC
Dont like the map = DC
Fails a skillcheck = DC
Dont like the SoloQ's perks = DC
I have had a full SWFs DC on me 1 at a time, as soon as they got downed.
I have been yelld at in endgame chat, for letting 2 survivors go and threatned with reports for favouring some survivors.
I have been accused for camping when i was not anywhere near the hook, i did however run into the survivor going for the unhook, and i didnt give him a free pass.
Personally? I don't play anymore. Killer is boring and Survivor is one of the worst experiences in gaming.
There has always been a lot of entitlement. I'm sure I could find messages from 2019 stating the same things you got messaged. Nothing ever changes, apparently.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010961#Comment_4010961
Didn't think it was controversial to say that theres a lot of people unhappy with the game
It's not. There are many people unhappy about many things in this game. Thankfully most of them deal with that rationally instead of taking it out on innocent players who have nothing to do with their problems. What is controversial is disconnecting at the drop of a hat and ruining the match for four other players because "I'm unhappy with the game so everyone else should be too." That's what an increasingly vocal minority have been doing lately and I can't abide it.
That kind of behaviour is inappropriate regardless of how slighted they feel at Survivors/Killers/the devs/whoever. There's no justificaiton for it and defending it is just enabling it.
I'm not defending it, but I am explaining why this idea of punishing without fixing isn't going to work. It never has. I have been around for far too long to let this cycle occur again without pointing it out.
When we had no DC penalty, people would DC constantly, but there were zero hook suicides. When DC penalties got added, there were less DC's but more suicides. Now that suicides are gone, we have DC's everywhere again. All this has done is shift the method without ever addressing the why.
Even if we removed the ability to disconnect entirely, we'd just shift the issue. Why? Because people are still extremely unhappy. That shows this isn't about disconnecting, but about a deeper issue.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010951#Comment_4010951
“actually […] make the game enjoyable”
The game already is enjoyable. There’s many of us who are very happy playing the game. If you don’t like it then you’re under no obligation to play it. It’s okay to just acknowledge that you don’t like DbD and play something you do enjoy.
You can call me reactionary or whatever you want, but the truth is that this would not be tolerated in any other PvP game. You either play the matches you signed up for, or don’t play. No ifs and buts about it.
It certainly is tolerated in other PVP games, least the one's that I play.
Now, other asymms? I cant think of any still alive at this point, I dont think TCM had a DC penalty when I was playing.
Didn't think it was controversial to say that theres a lot of people unhappy with the game. Its fine if you like it, but you gotta read the room. Nobody, not Killers or Survivors, are particularly pleased.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010937#Comment_4010937
The general playerbase is so burnt out of how ######### the average match is that they
literallywould rather endure time-out time than play another second of the game.Then they should stop queuing idc. People queuing for a game that they don’t enjoy is childish behaviour that I have no empathy for whatsoever. If someone’s response to dissatisfaction with a game is to ruin the game for everyone else then I don’t think they’re worth listening to.
Ignore the build-up, double-down on punishment.
That's gotten us into this situation, but sure, let's keep going. Will we be making the Anti Go-Next System stricter? Perhaps we should start banning people for bringing off-meta perks.
Eventually, something has to give. Either BHVR runs out of good will/collabs to bring in new players OR they actually innovate and make the game enjoyable. More punishment may hide the issue, temporarily, but without addressing the root cause you only hide the symptoms for a time.
Your take is completely short-sighted and highly reactionary.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010930#Comment_4010930
more reasons to stick around before we start blaming them for the state of the game.
The reason to stick around is that you (speaking generally) signed up to play a match when you hit the "ready" button. Simple as. The "giving up" mentality in this community has been going on for too long and I've had enough of it. I used to be lenient and think "Well they were being tunneled so I get their frustration," and the like. But now giving up isn't just reserved for extreme scenarios. It's everything.
Load in? DC. Get found? DC. Get Hit? DC. Hooked? DC. Get Exposed by your own Dramaturgy? DC. Weak Killer? DC. Strong Killer? DC. Good map? DC. Bad map? DC.
Even in the case of camping/tunneling/slugging I don't think it's justified anymore. Because what else did you expect from the game? These have been staple strategies in DbD for the past decade. If you boot up DbD and play anything more than a couple of matches, you KNOW you'll encounter one of these sooner or later. So then why play if you find the common strategies of the game so offensive? It's baffling to me. We can have discussions about whether camping/tunneling/slugging should exist, but the reality of the situation is that, right now, they DO exist. And if you (speaking generally) aren't prepared to handle that in a sportsmanlike manner when it crops up, then you should not queue. These people should wait for the anti-X/Y/Z updates and then give the game another go then.
~33% of my matches have someone DC. And that's not even including AFKing under hooks/running to the killer/griefing etc. because it's harder to track. I'm completely over it. These people have worn down any empathy I had for them, and, by extension, the issues they advocate for.
If you're (speaking generally) frustrated with the state of the game, fine. Understandable. Lots of people are for lots of different reasons. The sensible thing to do in that situation? Stop queuing for it. When BHVR sees the numbers drop they'll get the hint that people aren't happy and do something about it.
But instead of taking the sensible approach, a lot of Survivors have taken to sabotaging their own role. Queing up just to DC and leave the team stranded in an unwinnable game only serves to ruin the other Survivor's experience. It's the worst form of protest they could possible do. The Killer isn't going to say no to an easy win and so the only thing achieved is making the Survivor role worse for everybody else. Either these people like the game, or they don't. But they need to figure it out quickly because they're making it suck for everyone else in the meantime.
This attitude that you describe is because nothing was ever done. What you are seeing now is a symptom of ignoring community complaints for half a decade. Not even just about tunneling or camping or whatever, but about how utterly stale the game is. BHVR has largely sat on their ass and watched their competition sabotage themselves, all while raking in cash.
The general playerbase is so burnt out of how ######### the average match is that they literally would rather endure time-out time than play another second of the game.
Saying, "Just quit" isn't even a good solution, because not only are there zero alternatives, but it literally doesn't matter. People have been quitting. BHVR just gets new people to replace them by collabs with more and more popular IP's.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010753#Comment_4010753
If you've been playing the game for awhile and put effort forth, it's not unreasonable to expect to climb past those two base rates. Being forever average gives you no incentive to play. There are a bunch of killers on this forum with 80%+ KRs yet the highest overall survivor ER is usually around 50%. Even upper MMR is 48%. If that's the best rate the best players can maintain, then something is off.
On the contrary, I believe I have about 60% on Survivor, if I am remembering correctly.
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@Throw said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010280#Comment_4010280
Didn't the devs say ghoul was performing okay that's why they ain't nerfing him?
No idea.
He probably sells too much to nerf. Probably got some skins cooking for Halloween or Winter.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010580#Comment_4010580
MFT was comparison to 4% doesnt look big its big because we saw how strong can 3% with hugging loops can be on good survivors.
He got very small buff for 3 nerfs that made him less oppressive in chase and made his slowdown from his infection which creates new objective for survivors and if they dont cure it then they face solid debuffs.
two nerfs that only affected his ability to tunnel off of hook and his fully infected slowdown was reduced, which already didn't happen often.It happened when time for full infection was nearly or even half of the one which is today and 8% is way beter and bigger difference than 4% thats like comparing bloodlust level one against freddys snare hinder or hope speed boost against clown yellow bottle speed boost, shortly its noticible change.
Yeah, it's noticeable. It also pretty much only occurred when you were tunneling someone off of hook or if you whiffed two hits but still grabbed them. It was a gimmick.
In most scenario's, 4% and 8% Hindered is completely inconsequential. 99/100, it doesn't really matter. I don't even know why they bothered to change it.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010505#Comment_4010505
He kinda got his last changes were decreased recharge time for bound which was 6 seconds for each and now its 5,5 so in the end you will recharge your two bounds 1 second faster than before 11 seconds not 12. He got nerfs like patch or two before this buff which is small exchange for what he lost, he lost few things first is infection debuff when is survivor fully infected he was suffered from 8% hinder but now its only 4% which doesnt seems much but 3% gave you as survivor MFT and it was huge status to deal with especialy for m1 which is wesker 50% of the match. Last and most biggest thing was now survivors have I believe 60 seconds to get fully infected which was like 30-40 seconds before and when is survivor hooked infected, after he was unhooked have infection bar like 15% full but now its 0% so his infection threat got nerfed which was his key slowdown but on the other hand made his tunneling more effective.
I get the infection bar and time to get fully infected change but the hinder change still bothers me today, I dont get it why this had to be nerfed to. Now wesker is still good killer but if you dont run him with golden egg addon (makes the time window after first bound before you use second 30% bigger and makes him recover after first bound faster so you can outplay more loops with this addon then with basekit) and dont know how to consistently pull his techs like hug tech (many say its fancy, well if you dont run on 120 fps but 90 and less fps then this will help you close didstance or get hit on loops where you couldnt normaly which makes huge difference in effectiveness of the wesker),skinibert and other techs then he is clear a-tier killer but if you dont he is -a-tier to high b-tier killer.
He isnt just strong as he was before because the infection nerfs made his time wasting ability to force survivor to get spray and cure longer which gives them more time for other things and threatens them less in the chase by 100% less than before. He is straight killer to understand and counter he has two straight dashes and many loops are rounded (so he cant use his straight dashes well) and easy to see the killer, he is just easy to read if you dont go against some god wesker main who can pull insta hug techs like nothing and his other techs then he is strong and unpredictable but in most cases he is predictible and he has no mobility even his terror radius is 40 meters but his two bounds give him if used in straight line 21 meters (first 7 and second 14 meters) which is short distance so I dont know why he has to have 40 meters terror radius even when his mobility is just like 2 demogorgan dashes.
We are not still complaining about MFT in the big 2025.
So he got a small buff, two nerfs that only affected his ability to tunnel off of hook and his fully infected slowdown was reduced, which already didn't happen often.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010505#Comment_4010505
His infection was halved in Strength, his collision detection changed since his release - you could pull people out of window or pallets before they vaulted- and most important, the infection out of the hook was completely nerfed. There should be something more but i can't remember now.
Although i don't think he should have the big tunneling potential he had at release i believe they should give him more compensation than just 0.5s recharge.
So all nerfs to his tunneling potential/latency.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010487#Comment_4010487
True. If a killer is strong and popular it will be nerfed. See Wesker for example. Singularity mains are lucky because Singularity never will be popular otherwise it would be hard nerfed.
How did Wesker get significantly nerfed?
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010248#Comment_4010248
I know your position, already had t his discussion with you multiple times.
Thus then nurse is fine and so is blight and probably ghoul (i don't know if they have officially released stats around ghoul) because in the hands of average skill players they perform averagely.
We haven't seen Ghoul stats, iirc.
And as I've said previously, I wouldn't mind making Nurse more beginner-friendly.
There's no reason we can't take both perspectives into consideration. That was my mistake in my response, there's no reason for it to be one or the other.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010243#Comment_4010243
I am not objectively wrong. There is a reason that in comp level play they put up MASSIVE restrictions for survivors and put all the killers on the best maps for them. And why tournaments have to keep putting up all these point systems and stuff to make winning or losing less about kills/escapes. Because at its core, the game is not balanced at the highest levels.
But either way. Answer my question, do you balance around high skill players, or average skill players?
Average, especially in a game like DBD where top level play isn't exactly…fun for most people, we will say.
If we balance around the top, that will actually kill DBD. There's few things that COULD kill DBD, and making average players miserable is one of them.
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Because the game is incredibly poorly optimized, for whatever reason.
A game that looks like a PS3 game shouldn't struggle to hit 60 FPS on modern hardware.
Im half convinced that's why they got rid of the Fog.
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Is this a complaint about bugs or about SWF being OP somehow?
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Another Myers rework?
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@TheGoon224 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009888#Comment_4009888
I don’t know what your talking about, Skull merchant is easy af to play against
Easy has nothing to do with how pleasant a Killer is to face. Also, they keep advocating for old SM to return.
For example, Legion isn't a strong Killer, but boy does he suck to play against.
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@MashedBroccoli said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009761#Comment_4009761
i agree with this to an extent, i have a rotation of a lot of killers but there are some i refuse to play like hag.
There are also some i don't play, also like Hag
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@TheGoon224 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009860#Comment_4009860
he hasn’t played twins for a while, i’m pretty sure he plays skull merchant now
does bro play any killer that's not horrific to play against?
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@TheGoon224 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009761#Comment_4009761
honestly fair enough I respect the hell out of you if that’s what you do more power to you but I’ve always loved focusing on one particular character to where you can understand them inside and out, it just feels very rewarding you know? Like you’re getting the maximum potential out of the character.
I understand. I've always found it much too boring to dedicate myself completely to one Killer.
Variety is the spice of life after all.
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I dont main anyone. I aspire to a high level of proficiency on many Killers.
Jack of all trades, master of none, still much better than a master of one.
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I really couldn't feel a difference.
If there's MMR, and it is functional, it doesn't really work at all. My matches are as easy as they've always been, much to my disappointment.
Regardless, the game does need updated win conditions.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009636#Comment_4009636
My god that's a name I haven't heard in a LONG time.
I wonder what they're up to now…
Still DBD.
Saw them a while back in game
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@Skillfulstone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009587#Comment_4009587
Tenacity being a perk that can be "weaponized" and as such deserves a nerf is up there with "Survivor gameplay is easier than Killer because the only thing you do is hold M1 for 90 seconds." for wildest takes I've seen in years...and both of them were within days of each other.
In all seriousness, you ever saw wilder takes in the past, that the people actually believed unironically?
Yeah, Sluzzy had some pretty wild takes back in 2019 and 2020 DBD. Back when it was still Survivor-favored and we had busted stuff like old DS, old DH, insta heals and so on.
Brother was SURE the game was Killer sided.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009580#Comment_4009580
That’s not relevant. Being literally forced to do something, isn’t a requirement for something to be unfair.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009582#Comment_4009582
Survivors are never literally forced to repair. We’re talking about extreme hyperboles, because the person I was responding to was making extreme hyperboles about killers.
Tenacity is such a strange hill to die on. It really isn't an issue, I assure you.
I'd like to see you focus on Boil Over instead.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
I'm surprised but not displeased to see you still at it. nice to see a community anchor. hope your health and comfort is holding up.
As well as it can, these days. Appreciate the kind words :)
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What would make people happy does not always equal what is correct.
I think that would set a bad precedent.
Yes, they do need to use the killswitch more often. We saw that with the Streetwise incident. No, I don't think putting a new Killer into timeout for anything less than gamebreaking bugs is warranted or should be encouraged.
She is, unfortunately, working correctly.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008946#Comment_4008946
Ah yea. I remember half life 1 collection that had opposing force, blue shift, counterstrike, and team fortress. That one didnt make u download steam either.
My first was super nintendo, tho i also played original nintendo at some other place when i was almost too young to remember lol
Oh yeah, I think I still have those disc's around somewhere. My dad bought them and he was super big into HL.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008927#Comment_4008927
My first console was the venerable Colecovision, youngin.
Your homework assignment is to look up the big brick of a controller they used. 🤪
Xbox One for me.