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@Volfawott said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1289948#Comment_1289948
in return you would have to in return you would have to increase the Stagger that the survivors receive if you want to know why I direct you to remember a perk called balance landing.
The reason this Park was so devastating was because of the reduction in stones which allow the survivors to take a lot more advantage of the distance that the drop gave them.
If the killer gets a stunning as well even if it's always something minor you're going to start to run into situations where it's going to become equivalent to Old balanced landing the survivor already gets a advantage because of the normal looping rules especially if the drop is through a vault.
Now that the killer is stunned it's going to be very easy for the survivor to just regain distance like they used to have balanced landing and just continuously loop around the area again.
Finally if you do end up increasing the stone that the survivor receives you now back in the same position where are the change was pointless has now you just even that out making it literally irrelevant whether you gave the killer the Stagger in the first place
Alright: I will remember that for later
The reason the old perk was so strong, was that it was a 75% decrease in stagger. a 75% decrease in survivor stagger and a 5% increase in killer stagger are very different numbers.
No, not a single situation would be even close to old balanced landing. Remember when window vaults for survivors were reduced with 10% due to a QoL? Did that impact chases so much as old balanced landing? No, it barely even changed chases. Neither would 5%
"because of the normal looping rules especially if the drop is through a vault." And here I am back for your call out for BL. If stagger would need increasing because of BL, then it would need decreasing because of Bamboozle. Bamboozle alone is already part of the problem in the first place, increasing stagger because 1 perk exists that isnt as useful as it used to be(seriously, there are literally 3 maps in the game where BL is essentially a waste of perk slot). The whole reason why a tiny stagger would be needed is due to Bamboozle and some killers being able to charge their very powerfull ability mid-air.
No, false. The "increased" distance would be 0.5 meters at best. Thats not even enough to make a difference in a chase most of the time. A lunge covers up to 5 meters alone. You wanna claim that 0.1 seconds will allow for the same "old balanced landing" difference, where the difference in stagger was 2.6 seconds? You're literally comparing a 26x difference as equal? Alrightly, so, lets change generator times to 3 seconds rather than 80. I mean, its a 26x difference, so they must be the same. Or let sprintburst be lasting 78 seconds rather than 3 seconds, heck, they are essentially the same time. Or let unhooks take 0.05 seconds rather than 1.5 seconds. It's practically the same. Or let hooks take 13 minutes to respawn after they have been sabotaged, thats essentially the same as 30 seconds right? I mean, old hooks used to be gone forever, so its not like its like the old hooks. 13 minutes is faster than never. Do you see the ridiculousness of your claim by comparing it to old BL? 0.1 seconds increase isnt even close to the old 2.6 second increase. Stop trying to claim it is.
"Finally if you do end up increasing the stone that the survivor receives you now back in the same position where are the change was pointless has now you just even that out making it literally irrelevant whether you gave the killer the Stagger in the first place"
Well, no, because the killer would have a form ability interruption rather than none, which is still a huge difference. Stagger affects MUCH more than chase times.
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@DraconDirnc said:
Hey and while doing Mori's let's make it so DS deactivates if another survivor is hooked before the timer ends on your DS. That would encourage less tunneling and stop the need for slugging so much.
Kinda a problem there:
- that makes DS a ######### solo perk
- that makes DS an anti-tunnel perk(which it kinda is, but also isnt).
In fact, if you deactivate DS like that, then you could still be tunneled, slug and still down someone else to hook them to deactivate a DS on someone. It wouldnt really change the game that much and screw solo survivors over even harder.
DS is fine as it currently is. Its easy to get around and it actually prevents tunneling a bit. Perhaps you get slugged, but being slugged and picked up by teammates is better than getting 2 hookstages in 20 seconds time. But if I were to change/rework DS:
- When in 16 meter range of your old hook, trigger DS automatically
- If not in the 16 meter range: Get the wiggle meter to 75% before an automatic DS.
- Reduce the stun timer to 3 seconds again(the whole reason it got increased to 5 seconds, was because of Enduring being able to reduce the 3 seconds)
- Each hookstage lowers the required wiggle timer with 25%
- DS is always active, but can only be used once.
That way, a DS still guarantees a safe escape, wont punish the killer as harshly and can both be used as an anti-tunnel perk and a tactical perk for later use, especially in combination with flip-flop. I never really saw the use of a DS skillcheck, as its essentially just a button press.
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@Dwinchester said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1298840#Comment_1298840
This guy... I watched 5 gens be done in 4:20 without a prove thyself or toolbox in the game. I read killer for dummies too, I understand the game, I understand what the survivor mains call gen pressure, I know when to abandon chase, I know it all. I also know that it's futile against a team that knows what they're doing.
You're clearly one of these survivor mains that escapes 75% of the time and thinks survivor is weak.
Nah, I play both killer and survivor. I escape about 50% of the time due to me being overly altruistic and trying to help other people escape. There are some things about killers that are too strong for this current meta(aka, slugging having 0 vanilla counters and only 1 viable perk that, on paper, is only strong because of the lack of vanilla counters). And yeah, 4 minutes and 20 seconds is relatively a fast game, but its not a genrush.
Fastest times for generators without any perks and toolboxes:
4 man split on 4 gens, final gen being a 4 man gen, killer doing nothing: 2 minutes and 5 seconds(not including distance between generators and not including opening exit gates)
5x 4 man on 1 gen, killer doing nothing: 3 minutes.
1 man being chased and 3 man rush fastest time: 2 minutes 30 seconds
5 minutes for a game simply means that you lacked gen pressure. You probably greeded when you shouldnt and either were too late to acknowledge that or didnt even recognise it and blamed the game instead. Either that, or you had the 1 in 5000 games where you actually faced an optimal 4 man SWF and applied that as the standard for your games, even though realistically, your average game lasts about 8 minutes.
EDIT:
Some quick notes: including prove thyself and toolboxes, the fastest gen speeds are roughly(not accurate, just guessing based on known numbers) 1 minute 40 seconds and 2 minutes 40 seconds with 1 minute 55 seconds for 1 man chased and a 3 man rush.
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@immortalls96 said:
Hmm..definitely better than the lazy "ideas" people usually have for the mori..I had a huge end game rework focused around moris and keys..but very few people really took the time to read it
Yeah, I had a larger previous post in the past, explaining what was wrong with current ebony, why it was wrong and how its impossible to nerf its current state(2 hook requirement is too much, 1 hook requirement is too little), which also got kinda ignored, but not as much as I initially expected. However, like I said, I am gonna move this to feedback and suggestions with a more in-depth reasoning. Just here to have some people quickly read the idea for the set up, which they can figure out quite quickly what the effects could be in game and then leave their opinion on whether they think its good or bad and what they think is good or bad about it.
For example: current ebony mori has the "weakness" that it requires 1 hook before you can kill someone. Which must definitely be acknowledged an actually is why I am tempted to say 3 tokens instead rather than 2.
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@Dwinchester said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1298792#Comment_1298792
Except I do know what a gen rush is. When you ignore lit totems, unhooks, heals, to focus on doing gens. When you split up on the first three, then triple up on the last two.
Gen pressure is a myth, it's impossible to pressure gens against a team that wants to rush and has at least two good loopers.
If there are no lit totems spotted, if someone is freshly hooked, healing overall is useless due to sloppy butcher being so common, Sloppy Butcher forced players to learn to play while never healing in the first place, yeah, you do gens. Thats not a genrush. A genrush requires toolboxes and prove thyself to be a thing.
And no, gen pressure is not a myth, It might be impossible preventing 5 gens from being done, just as it might be impossible for survivors to do a game with no one ever being downed or hooked. But just because 5 gens are impossible, doesnt mean 3 gens, 2 gens and 1 gen is impossible. If survivors were capable of destroying a 3-gen setup before they fixed 3 gens, then you are at fault for lacking pressure. On some maps, you want to stay away from gens that are spread out, to have the gens that spawned close to each other within your reach. It might feel stupid to not go to a certain part of the map and letting people finish gens, but 3-gens situation can literally change the outcome of the match. If you lack genpressure, you gonna lose the gens you didnt pressure. If you "tried" pressuring gens and failed to get a 3-gen situation, then I 100% will bet my life savings that you decided to chase a claudette with a flashlight for 90 seconds without even hitting her. If you cant accept that you're wasting time in a chase, then you deserve people finishing gens. Sometimes you gotta swallow your pride, quit the chase and go back to your patrolling. It, again, might feel stupid to quit a chase early, but it can literally change the outcome of the match. That gen you kicked at 95% and scared the 1 survivor that was there? By the time they return to that gen, it very likely regressed back to 40%. Gen pressure matters.
Basically, there are 3 steps in preventing genrush in the average game:
- try finding the best survivor, chase them away from gens only, dont spend time chasing them into a jungle gym, even if you got a hit on them.(he probably wont heal up anyway and go back to gens, where you can hit him a second time without ever having chased that person)
- try finding the worst survivor, chase them for 30 seconds and get a cheap hook.
- go back to patrolling important gens
- Whenever you hook someone, let people be overly altruistic. Leave them enough room to want to go for the unhook, but small enough room to hit them before they can unhook so you swap out a hooked survivor. Altruism can be the survivors greatest weakness.
- repeat
If the best survivor is within your skill to down them quickly, congrats, you got an easy game and can pretty much ignore patrolling gens, because they will be too altruistic otherwise.
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@RizeAki said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1298781#Comment_1298781
The problem is you only need one or two to be doing that not all four someone needs to interact with a killer at all times to prevent the killer from needing to just sit and watch. If the killer still chooses to sit there when someone wants to do a chase then yes it’s in the wrong depending on circumstance of course.
1, only 1 person needs to interact with the killer at all times. Sure, you can swap out mid chase to prevent people from being hooked(which is actually an extremely difficult task to pull off and if you are skilled enough to pull it off, its just a dick move. Basically like Iri Head hatchets, Ebony Mori and Tunnel the unhooked person ASAP), but the game is overall more fun and less stressful to play to let 1 person be chased and 3 people doing a 2/1 split on generators(that way its not 3 gens done in 80 seconds. More like, 2.8 gens done in 80 seconds). That way, the killer can still end a chase early, discombobulate the chased person for a few seconds and interrupt the other survivors.
Either that, or be completely unpredictable to scare survivors shitless to the point that they cant know if you're watching them or just waiting around a corner.
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@CosmicParagon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1298781#Comment_1298781
It's actually not counterproductive, as survivors remove their brains the instant you camp. They'll flock to the hook and feed you kills
Some do, which is why Kindred on solo survivor is one of the strongest perks right now. But even including that, 2 people would come check it out, see if you're camping and once they realize they cant do #########, they will go back on gens, losing maybe 10 seconds, but that still leaves 50 seconds to work on gens. Meaning that they can meet up with the other player and finish 2.5-3 gens before the sacrifice is complete.
Yes, braindead people exist, just like braindead killers cant see people who are crouching next to a hook even though they look them straight in the face. Does that mean hiding to a hook guarantees you not being spotted?
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@Dwinchester said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/154931/camping-is-two-sided
Every time I get salt for camping, i point this out. They never see it as the same thing. Camping is boring for both sides....so is gen rushing. I'm just doing the objective....so am I. Gen rush is a legit tactic...so is camping.
Except that killers call something genrushing, when it is not. If I, a random and someone else happen to be on a gen while you chase the 4th person. We dont know what everyone is doing, all we know is that we are not being chased and the killer isnt coming for us. So we do gens, as we need to do gens to activate the gate and its counterproductive to stop doing gens unless someone needs saving. That is not a genrush, that is a lack of killer putting pressure on gens.
As for a killer, no, camping is not required for the objective. In fact, because you put all your pressure on that hook, that means there is 0 pressure on gens, leaving survivors with 1 option: doing gens. So its counter productive to camp, because instead of having 1 person doing gens(1 person on hook, 1 person going to save the person on hook and probably heal while you chase 1 person, only leaves 1 person to do gens) you have 3 people doing gens(1 on hook, you camping the hook and 3 people doing 3 gens at the same time). So while camping, you literally are forcing a genrush, while chasing someone for too long and not putting pressure on generators at all, you're also forcing a genrush.
Yes, killer is more difficult, but if you refuse putting pressure on gens because you like chasing that meg more than you like patrolling gens, then dont complain about a genrush, because you're not giving any other options. If you leave that meg, that meg first has to confirm you left her, that meg has to make sure its not tinkerer or anything else, then that meg has to gain her bearings and then that meg will start working on a gen from scratch, while you go interrupt someone who has been able to work on a gen for 60 seconds, kick that gen to start it regressing and then once you've chased them long enough, you go check back on that meg who probably is halfway done with her gen, while the gen you kicked regressed quite a bit.
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Well, 2 reasons:
- Survivors HAVE TO complete gens to be able to escape the game.
- Killers dont have to camp to get kills, and in fact, its counter productive to camp.
As for interaction, again:
- a survivor can interact with gens, totems, injured survivors and the killer. If there is a lack of injured survivors(or the injured survivor has no interest in being healed) a lack of killer and no totem in sight, they will do gens.
- a killer can pretty much only interact with survivors, dropped pallets and generators. If a survivor is hooked and no nearby dropped pallet, a killer should go patrol gens, unless he has information that gens are not being done(surveillance for example), then he has no reason to leave the hook(but often, like you said, at least 1 survivor is doing gens, so you should stop them from doing so).
So no, sitting on gens and sitting on hooks are not similar at all. One is literally an interaction and productive, the other is a lack of interaction and counter-productive unless its literally the only objective.
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@APoipleTurtle said:
Crazy thought, because I'm just skimming the four pages of discussion so far, but what if large falls (heights approximate to the Ironworks catwalk or The Game's funnel, NOT the second-story windows of Haddonfield/Springwood) slightly manipulated the killer's camera instead of a stun?
Like, if your fall was 8 meters (an estimate) or greater, the killer could maintain their speed and momentum as normal, but their camera would be briefly forced down to look at the ground in a similar style to Nurse's fatigue or a pallet stun on Hag.
I don't think the smaller drops from the suburban houses (or the Temple's main floor) should have any kind of stagger though, as these are where most of the vault-drops occur. I think this might help balance the really big drops to help survivors mind-game these areas a little more (while killer briefly can't look up), while also not making the more average-sized ones worse for the killer.
I agree that small drops(altho, the temple does have 1 gigantic drop), shouldnt have any effect on killers too. As for a stun, thats not the same as a stagger. A stagger for survivors is practically a stun since you can no longer vault. However, if you were to drop from a massive height right next to a generator, you could work on the generator. You just lose all the momentum you gained and for a short amount of time(including charging things, so if you somehow flashlight something during a drop, you stop flashing once you touch the ground) you would slowly regain momentum. Camera manipulation alone wont really do ######### there, because you only need a direction and predict where some one goes. Which you can do blindly if you played enough.
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@DelsKibara said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1296005#Comment_1296005
You do know 20 Hours is a lot of time right?
You don't need 100+ Hours to consider yourself adept and getting used to a Killer. Because once you get used to ANY Killer, you will lget used to all of them with their basic mechanics. Even their power.
I play Clown and Pig for fun despite them being at the bottom of the pole and still get 4ks almost every game I play in Rank 1, does that make them broken? No, of course not.
Please stop peddling the false narrative that she is broken because she is "easy", she isn't. Once she got nerfed I saw a massive decrease in her use. So there's no way she is as easy as you think it is.
20 hours is a lot of time, but I shouldnt get a 4k against 1000 hour survivor SWF teams before they can finish all gens. And I am not trying to rush the kills either, not using useful perks and not using any addons at all.
I got 30 hours on pig and get 3-4k's consistently, but it either gets to them having a baby survivor or they finish all gens and were too altruistic. I played doctor for nearly 100 hours and am pretty much guaranteed a 4k with my favourite build. My problem with spirit, is that you can go perkless with very little experience, while with pretty much most other killers, you need at least in depth knowledge of how you can use the killers power to your advantage in certain points of certain maps to go perkless and still get a 4k.
Basically, Spirit is balanced when you ignore addons and Stridor. That is a problem. Add in stridor alone, and you can defeat pretty much any 4 man. Add in 1 addon and you can defeat optimal SWF's. Add in 2 addons and be practically unbeatable unless the survivors perfectly predict your movements.
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@BunnyTheHutt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1295890#Comment_1295890
Spirit is not broken lol. She has a massive skillcap and is not even close too easy too learn. she takes many hours in order too master her.
20 hours of Spirit, getting 4k's against red ranks with relative ease. Dont even have Stridor yet to make her even easier. Yes, she is broken. The hardest part is dealing with survivors going invisible while you do, but once you learn to ignore that and just go for sounds, which only takes 2-3 games at most, she's extremely easy.
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@Rey_512 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1293896#Comment_1293896
Are you talking about Otzdarva’s Shinobi Clown?
I wish it was his, but it wasnt Otz' build or playstyle(although Otz was definitely scarier). It simply was a regular clown using insidious from the rafters, probably inspired by otz, and because he had devour hope, he kept a bit more distance, but we never knew he was upstairs and just waiting for us to slowly walk towards him so he could swandive. Its utterly terrifying. Let alone that we had no clue where to start moving, because once he had 3 devour stacks, he just randomly picked a generator, stood close to it, but just out of sight, waited for insidious and once he heard it being worked on he came around the corner taking 2 people with ease. And if he got bored, he simply stood around a random corner, waiting for one of us to use that path and scare the ######### out of that person. I couldnt even know where the killer was with Spine Chill. I knew he was looking at me, but I didnt know if he did it on purpose and was secretly waiting for me to get closer, or if he just happened to look in my direction while he was listening for nearby grass to move. It really makes you stop and look around, then try and guess where the killer is, investigate from a distance to make sure and hope you dont accidentally walk into him.
Scariest game I ever played and we only ended up finishing 3 gens. We were too afraid to go to any generator without looking everywhere in the first place, and it turned out that this ######### also ran discordance, so once we did find a generator, ofcourse we would start working on it together to finish it ASAP, and if he thought the gen was too far, he simply didnt come and kept waiting. Yet people still claim insidious is a terrible perk. If you can use insidious in your favor, you can literally scare survivors to such an extend that they are too afraid to run around in the first place and will think twice about every single move they make. Want to go for the devour? What if he is watching that totem from a distance and just waiting for someone to start cleansing it, only to take that person out? Want to go through that window for a shortcut to another gen? What if he is on the opposite side leaning against the wall just waiting for someone to be lazy and take a shortcut? Want to unhook a player? What if he dug a hole in the ground and will grab my ankles once I try to unhook the survivor? You never know with those type of players, they could somehow pull it off too.
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@Deadeye said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1293845#Comment_1293845
Well, on the Freddy slowdown we can keep discussing. Actually no idea and we won't have a clear answer unless we fully test and measure that appropriately. I just brought that in as an example what slight number fixing can lead to. Forever Freddy is still annoying, but with the slight tweaks you at least have a chance now, old Forever Freddy was simply over once the second person was on the hook.
Not sure if you really remember the difference between old BL Haddonfield and new Haddonfield. The windows didn't give you such a big stagger effect. People with old BL gave them that much of an advantage that it was basically pointless for killers to chase them through houses. And I don't get what you are calculating there. Pls repeat step by step where you think there is a 2-3 second difference. And regarding the strange window hits, I'm pretty sure that is just on slow/medium vaults.
I think the DS example doesn't work well. If there is a DS possible on an endgame hooked survivor, then you hook that guy at most once during the match. If there are beneath that three other survivors alive that can manage to unhook that guy without you being able to make a hook exchange, or if you can't manage "at least" a hook exchange against 2 survivors coming for the safe, then yeah, all of these scenarios mean that you didn't perform well enough, allowing to get into that situation.
Beneath that, the arguments target certain perks and it doesn't matter if that is fairt or not. If not, change the perk. We are talking about a core mechanic, I don't see how OoO or DS is related to that. Like "DS is unfair, let's add killer stagger" pls what? And I would say it is "good" map design to have A FEW spots on the map that are more lethal than others. Still my argument, that this needs map awareness. If survivors run blindly around and then wonder why they get hit, then yeah, it's their fault.
Thompson house even got nerfed, it was a total death trap before, while the rest of the map was jungle gym to jungle gym. And you probably never saw someone drop in the correct moment, like when the killer is just getting up the stairs, and NOT when they see you. Because then you have a chance to get to the near pallets outside, when the killer needs to run down the stairs again. And Badham school is one of the strongest loops in the game. With the possibility to not spawn the basement, meaning if you get downed in there, you wasted a lot of time and a single protection hit could cause the survivor to wiggle free. Is that fair to the killer? Allowing to run the strongest loop again and again without any punishment? With the basement in school it is the same like getting downed at the shack with basement. It's up to you if you want to take the risk while getting a lot of value out of the loop, or if you leave it early. So yeah, I think it is fair, because it is more like a high risk, high reward for the survivor he needs to decide on. The killer just decides if it is worth spending the time if the survivor goes for that loop.
Well, simple maths: in my example, the stagger was 3 seconds. In reality, the biggest stagger you can get as a survivor(I think) is a 3 second stagger in The Game. I've been calculating using those numbers, which is why I used 0.15 and 0.3 second staggers for the killers(using the same drop in The Game). Since 0% stagger(pre-BL) would mean you wont have a 3 second stagger and a 25% stagger(old BL) is about a 0.5 second stagger. Both lead to 3 seconds and 2.5 seconds of not being staggered that you can use to move around. Giving you a 2-3 second increased distance. And no, those strange window hits actually dont apply during a slow vault at all, as the game on both killer and survivorside register a slow vault properly on the server, because it can adjust for the latency difference due to the length of time. During fast vaults is when the "magic" happens, because its too fast to adjust for possible latency, meaning I could be on the floor(downstairs) on my screen, but are just on the opposite side of the window(upstairs) for the killer. Meaning that according to the killer's view, I should recieve a hit. Since the server works with killer priority, I get ######### over.
As for DS, if I ever use DS, I actually save my DS for the second hook rather than the first one. Simply because early game, there are more than enough generators where a 5 second stun wont affect killer performance too much, while a late game DS impacts the killer a whole lot more. Even I feel that DS shouldnt be activating once the EGC has started, simply because if I get unhooked with BT, I can tank 2 hits without any consequences. Which means that if NOED is somehow hidden extremely well, I can essentially counter NOED as a whole with 1 perk and 1 effect, and the killer cant do ######### about it. Let alone the fact that you have urban blendettes with self care who hide all game and cant be found untill the EGC starts, as that is the only reason for them to get out of their hidey hole, and then still carry DS just for that reason. It's essentially a place where someone is a massive coward and gets rewarded for playing brainlessly while holding control and sometimes hold m1 and are skilled enough to hit 1 "hard" skillcheck. Basically they wouldnt have deserved an escape, but they still get one due to having a perk and there is nothing you can do about it.
DS at this point is a core mechanic. Practically everyone has it and practically everyone uses it. It's comparable to Sloppy Butcher on M1 killers. It might not be a vanilla mechanic, but it sure as hell is a core mechanic.
"And you probably never saw someone drop in the correct moment, like when the killer is just getting up the stairs" This can only be done while you're not being chased in the first place. Allowing you to do a silent vault and disappear to the killer. If you are being chased, either you fast vault, letting the killer know to instantly turn back and get a hit, or he sees you slow vault, letting him know to instantly turn back and get a hit. I mean, this is like saying that Windows are OP against Spirit because she cant vault them while phasing, ignoring the fact that she can literally run around the windowed wall in 99% of the cases before the survivor finishes a fast vault.
"And Badham school is one of the strongest loops in the game." Not really, it used to be, but even then, Badham was still the most balanced map in the game, not favouring survivors or killers too much. It had the strongest loop and the strongest basement. Now the strongest loop got nerfed hard, but the basement has not.
"it is the same like getting downed at the shack with basement" No, its not. The shack at least as 1 pallet and 1 window at the top of the staircase with a very long wall inbetween to run away from a killer. Bedham's basement does not even come close to that safety. If the killer hits you at the staircase, he can and will hit you upstairs too. Without any easy way to create enough distance, while a shack allows the pallet to be dropped, forcing the killer to break the pallet or take the long way round, allowing a survivor to pretty much escape the killers grasp while the killer starts chasing someone else. Even if you include the pallet that spawns in one of the hallways. If you never been in the schoolbuilding before you were hooked, you have a 50/50 chance of going for the pallet because you cant see it untill its already too late to change your direction. If you happen to go for that pallet, the killer still can take the other path to catch up, not creating any distance that a shack pallet would otherwise. As for actually using the bradham school loop, doesnt factor into the matter. Because, like I said, you can reach that basement as a killer from the middle of the map. Its a very safe killer basement spawn for the killer.
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@HellDescent said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1293880#Comment_1293880
The only killers you can get that many ebony moris are billy and leatherface and only because they are missing ultra rare addons., so it's impossible to get 28 on average. What does rancor have to do with any of this? And that's is not how the perk works. Cypress mori lets you kill the last remaining survivor, which means everyone else is either dead or escaped. So no one can help you when you're dying anyway. Even if you were hooked and there is a mori you can still work on gens, you just play stealthy, heal up and avoid going for saves. The first 2 gens for survivor are pretty much free if they are versing 110% or 115% killer with no mobility. All you gotta do is do 1 or 2 more gens depending on how many people are alive by that time and you completely ignore the rest of your objective, exit gates and any endgame perks that killer might have. While killer can be completely oblivious to the fact that there is a survivor with a key in a game.
You'd think so right? But no, I got 35 ebony's on trapper, 25 ebony's on ghostface, 34 ebony's on doctor, 24 ebony's on Pig and 22 Ebony's on Spirit. I do lack a lot of iri addons on trapper and have relatively few on doctor, but I've had a few cases where I got 2 ebony's from the same tree(mystery box). As for Rancor, I kinda added that in since I used the key addons aswell: "Not including the fact that I could use Rancor in tandem with cypress and ivory, which is kinda unfair considering I did include the key addon to increase key usage." I mean, I could easily ignore the key addons otherwise aswell, even further proving my point, because key addons on themselves do not open hatches.
And yeah, a killer could be completely oblivious. But there are only 3 survivors that can sneak in a key without being too noticable: Steve, Yui and Meg. So a killer could go in a match without having seen that, granted. But that is the killers mistake, it literally only takes 5 seconds to spot a key and if a killer doesnt want to take 5 seconds to inspect items, then he deserves every single effect the items could have given. And even if he didnt see that: when a killer goes to pick up a survivor, the hands with key are in the middle of his screen and due to it being an animation, he can easily spend 2 seconds watching the hands because he literally has nothing else to do, and in a chase, its pretty hard not to see that one hand is constantly clenched while otherwise it would be opened. So, in practice, if 4 survivors leave through the hatch, its the killers fault for not paying any attention. While when a survivor gets mori'd they often literally couldnt do anything to prevent it. Besides that, stealth play is very limited due to audio. A killer can literally hear you breathe and if you're injured, he can hear exactly where you are. Let alone that even if the killer happens to be deaf, you wont be able to do too much in game, because once you're spotted, you're gonna be dead, so everytime the killer gets close, you wont be able to get points. You practically wont be able to unhook anyone in a risky situation and you cant tank hits for your teammates anymore. Basically, you'd have to be sandbagging your entire team to not get mori'd. In which case, you might aswell be dead.
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Most broken killers? Freddy and Spirit by far. All other killers are fairly balanced and can be countered, and if you cant counter a specific killer, then its pretty much because they are more skilled at that killer than you are at playing survivor.
Spirit and Freddy are the odd ones out, where with practically 0 skill, you can still win against high skilled survivors as the only way to counter them is to do everything you shouldnt normally do as a survivor.
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@BunnyTheHutt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/154407/who-is-the-most-broken-killer-in-your-opinon
Clown. Not in terms of strength, but I mean in actual functionality his bottles are incredibly buggy and hardly work half the time.
In terms of strength no killer is broken IMO, you just have some stronger then others who have high skill caps.
Well, broken killers are killers that have a relatively low skillcap and are still stronger than killers with an incredibly high skill cap. Huntress has a very high skill cap and the higher your skill is as a huntress, the more unbeatable you get(the only issue I have with huntress is having practically half the cooldown between hatchets than between m1's). But a baby huntress will pretty much lose the game without getting any kill at all.
Spirit is a broken killer, cus her skillcap is incredibly low, very easy to master and still challenges Freddy and Huntress for top tier. A baby spirit can get a 1k easily and a skilled spirit can easily get 4k's every other match. I have 20 hours on Spirit and am more effective at getting 4k's than a 500 hour Huntress.
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@bigbucks76 said:
Cause the huntress was trash and stayed there until they did buffs for her
Huntress and trash? Huntress has been S Tier since her release and only after the tinkerer nerf has she turned A tier. She is still top 3 strongest killers in the game.
People who play huntress can be trash, but huntress is arguably the second strongest killer in the game.
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@Abcdef123_4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/154407/who-is-the-most-broken-killer-in-your-opinon
I think that is a good explanation but i believe that death-slinger is pretty broken for people who have played a lot of FPS games and know how to play him well are pretty overpowered.
strong? yes, overpowered? no.
Huntress is basically a stronger Deathslinger. If you know how to aim with deathslinger, by the time you reel 1 person in, you could have downed someone with 2 hatchets instead.
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@Rey_512 said:
DBD lost its horror element a long time ago. In a world with Elf Dwight cosmetics, a Scooby Doo Chapter wouldn’t be a massive departure from the norm.
You've never faced a clown with insidious doing a swandive from the rafters then. Dbd still has a horror element to it, but the horror is depending on the killer.
Which actually is funny, the more efficient a killer plays, ditching any roleplay of being scary, the more I can focus and the more easily I can help my teammates escape. The less efficient a killer plays, roleplaying into something with constant jumpscares, the less I can focus and the more easily I make mistakes, ending up in me accidentally killing myself or one of my teammates in the process.
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@evilwithinIII said:
Just because snares are similar to the bottles of clown doesnt mean there shouldnt be a power similar. Like ghostface and myers have similar powers and those are fine.
And just because people complain about freddy doesnt mean they are right
The clown need buffs nothing else and pretty sure the devs stated that they were planning to change the clown soon.
Well, people who complain about freddy are being right.
There are currently 2 killers who, without any addons, are still better at what other killers do with addons:
Spirit and Freddy.
Freddy can do what clown can do, with no impact on his movementspeed, he can practically spam it and pre-set his slows on popular loops to end them before they start. Clown has to constantly reload his bottles, which reduces his speed practically in half, and he'd have to throw his bottles into a loop pre-emptively to deter people from using those loops, but if people still decide to go in, the cloud would be gone by the time Clown can break the loop, requiring at least 2 bottles of his limited supply. They are essentially the same, but Freddy's power is simply a better version of Clown's power. Let alone that Freddy can Teleport. Sure, Freddy requires his targets to be asleep for his slow to work, but its not exactly hard for Freddy to keep people asleep. Clown requires addons and specific perks to be able to match Freddy's ability.
Spirit can do what Wraith can do, but better, the only downside that Spirit cannot see survivors directly, but in terms of mappressure and chases, she can pretty much blindly chase a person and reappear and let autoaim land the blow for her, while Wraith practically needs to be touching survivors before he can start uncloaking to guarantee a hit in the first place. Wraith requires addons to be able to match Spirit's pressure and chasing capability.
As for Ghostface, he actually has more in common with Pig than he has with Myers. The stalking might be similar, but Ghostface's stalk requires his ability to be uninterrupted, while Myers can stalk as long as survivors have stalk juices in them. They are simply not comparable in ability. T1 Myers is similar to Ghostface, but T1 Myers is temporary. Ghostface's ability to crouch and have no TR helps him out a lot more than his ability to stalk and instadown.
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@HellDescent said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1293776#Comment_1293776
Because killers usually bring mori if there is survivor with a key and you'd have to change both of those things. Not just one. Keys allow for an early escape or bypass an exit gate, while moris let you kill survivors early. Both mechanics are equally unfair to the other side
Leveled up 5 survivors from lvl 1 to 50, grabbing all the keys that I could after grabbing the perks: 4 skeleton keys and 8 purple keys per survivor on average total 12 keys on average with 10-ish rings to save my keys after opening the lock(5 beads to save it if I die, but that doesnt matter)
Assuming they can all be used optimally I can use 22 keys in total, having an optimal of 88 survivors escaping the match using the hatch instead of the exit gate.
Leveled up 5 killers from lvl 1 to 50, grabbing all the mori's that I could after grabbing the perks: 9 cypress mori, 4 ivory mori and 28(ultra rare my ass) ebony mori per killer on average. Not including the fact that I could use Rancor in tandem with cypress and ivory, which is kinda unfair considering I did include the key addon to increase key usage.
Assuming they can be used optimally, thats 116 survivors being killed after only 1 hook and 9 being killed because they were the last remaining survivor, for a total of 125 dead survivors.
If I add in Rancor with Cypress and Ivory: that's 116 survivors being killed after only 1 hook, 9 being killed because they were the last remaining and 13 because they happened to be the obsession, for a total of 138 survivors being dead.
88 on average vs 125 on average is quite the difference. Especially since 1 obstructs an item slot and can be scouted out before the killer starts the match, meaning a killer could dodge it, while the other one cant be pre-emptively dodged.
Keys require quite some work to be used optimally and the longer you have to work on gens, the lower the odds of a 4 man hatch escape is possible. Ebony Mori's only require 1 hook and then snowball extremely hard since you cripple survivors extremely. Keys do not cripple a killer's ability to get kills at all: if 4 people can escape through the hatch, then they could have done so through the exit gate aswell. If 3 people are able to escape through the hatch, then they could still finish the final gen and escape instead. If 2 people escape through the hatch, the killer already got a 2k and imo not much to complain about. If 1 person escapes through the hatch with a key, then you simply got lucky you found the hatch in the first place, because hatchgames are essentially 50/50.
Ebony Mori extremely affect the chances of survivors being able to fix gens. You hook 1 person and easily cripple the opposing side permanently, reducing their efficiency to fix generators by 1/3rd(assuming you're always chasing 1 survivor), which means you can easily hook a second person while you essentially doubled the time it takes to finish all the gens, which allows easily for another hook, reducing the efficiency by 2/3rds. The only time an ebony mori doesnt work is when the survivors are extremely good at mindgaming and wont be caught twice untill 2-3 gens are done.
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@DelsKibara said:
I'm honestly just seeing a huge spike of NOED users, I honestly don't know why, but most of my Red Rank games end with NOED popping.
NoED at least has a reason for usage: increased movementspeed and being an Adrenaline counter. In the average game, you have 3 people being injured when the final gen is being done. Once the final gen is done, survivors shouldnt want to heal up untill one of the gates is opened. So the instadown from NoED is only a punishment if you wasted time healing up. However, that 4% extra movementspeed is extremely valuable in the EGC when there tends to be a decent distance between gates.
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@Deadeye said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1293460#Comment_1293460
3% doesnt last the entire game, it is per sleeping survivor, You almost never have that effect at maximum stacks. Staggering lasts the entire game on every dropdown. You can bet that survivors adapt to recognize the power difference in loops that contain vault drops like they did on Haddonfield. And regarding pallet breaking: it is not about the sum of time for breaking pallets, it is about the mindgaming, to push survivors on the wrong side to make them run into unsafe areas of the map while losing less distance because of faster pallet breaking. If you just kick pallets as soon as they are dropped, the perk is weak.
And the stagger also is irrelevant for the amount of time you lose in sum, it is about if you allow the survivor a single extra loop, causing 5-10 seconds extra chase on EACH loop that allows this extra turn on EVERY survivor that makes use of it, which could easily lead to extra minutes of extra chase depending on the map.
And regarding the "earned downs" and "killers not having a plan": I would say it is the survivors fault when using paths with a dropdown that allow the killer to catch up. It should be common sense that you don't chase over a hill when you don't have BL because you just create a stagger effect. Or if you run into a deadend because you expected a door or window. The same counts for killers, if they try to cut off the survivor and run into a window or deadend, it is their fault. This is just about pathing and map awareness. If survivors get hit because of the stagger effect, it is in the first place bad pathing. And getting caught in a place where there is only 1 dropdown is simply at your risk. You get caught offguard, that is not only the case for stagger, there are a lot critical places you need to be aware of when you want to have a chance in the chase, if the killer finds you there. Ever tried to do a gen injured in the shack with basement and pallet down? You better have sprintburst or Lithe ready, or start running as soon as you hear the TR. This is also part of map awareness
"3% doesnt last the entire game, it is per sleeping survivor, You almost never have that effect at maximum stacks." You'd be surprised how long survivors prefer not going for failing a skillcheck or running all the way to the opposite side of the map for a wake up. 5% regression adds up a lot, walking to the other side of the map will cost you more time than the punishment is on the gen. The only time people are actively being woken up is if one of them happens to be awake and there isnt a gen nearby, that or they'd have to be fully premade. Or ofcourse Freddy waking them up by hooking them. Other than those reasons, you're pretty much guaranteed a slowdown thats on max stacks when you need it to.
While you are correct that in some cases it might extend a loop, which is rare, especially as it pretty much requires a pallet to actually succesfully cash in on the stagger time difference(a 0.15 second difference on a window vault would still register a hit), so if you were too late for 1 window hit, odds are extremely likely that you would have been too late for a hit regardless. Especially considering that on the survivor AND the killer screen, they are almost on the floor and still get hit by the killer. The whole reason why old vault drops pre-stagger/old BL were so succesful were because of the time the survivors earned before the killer was able to reach the floor. Which was a 3 and 2,5 second difference. The 0,15 second difference is too insignificant of a difference in a chase overall.
"I would say it is the survivors fault when using paths with a dropdown that allow the killer to catch up." Then would you say a DS is the killers fault when the exit gate is open and basically guarantees a survivor the escape because they can easily crawl out within 60 seconds, regardless if the survivor performed incredibly stupid all game? Would you say genrushing is a myth because the killer didnt patrol the gens sufficiently? Would you say that people who have their asses being saved by their teammates over and over again due to their incompetence deserve the adrenaline heal+sprint after you've downed them because their friend on comms was keeping a gen at 99? That its the killers fault if OoO pretty much destroys a killer as long as the one with OoO keeps their aura hidden behind generators? Considering the FACT that there are tons of maps where a drop down is literally the only chance of escaping a hit in a chase but due to killers being able to charge their ability mid air(I mean, imagine survivors being able use styptic agent mid-air) guaranteeing a hit regardless, makes it either bad map design due to a lack of paths given, or having plenty of legitimate paths in the game but gamemechanics making those paths impractical. I am 100% of the second opinion, considering Haddonfield alone is proof that the only escape is often a drop. Hawkins' second floor generator only escape is a drop unless you can see the killer's aura going towards the stairs. Thompsons house second floor only escapes are drops or a staircase that is almost always a hit regardless. Bloodlodge's drop only works because there is a window nearby. If the basement spawns inside the school on Bradham's, the killer can reach the basement extremely easily from all sides. It's easily the strongest killer basement in the game due to killer accesibility. You can be going from the center tile of the map to the school's basement without agitation or iron grasp and still reach the hook(just barely) thanks to the double drop without any negative consequences, while the basement, long distance, should be high risk high reward for the killer. Would you really call it fair when there is practically no risk and a high reward to it, without the survivors making a risky move in the first place?
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@Deadeye said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1290874#Comment_1290874
I can't really predict, but if you take a look what 5% movement speed means in this game, or if you have Freddy slow down all actions by 3% per sleeping survivor or by 2% per sleeping survivor, or what the diffreence is between 10% or 20% faster pallet breaking speed during a chase, and all these "not that much" changes that already happened to the game, then you can at least guess that a "not at all" or 5-10% stagger, and not to a single perk but to ALL drop downs in the game, might actually break the game
I also pretty much stated it having a higher requirement for triggering in the first place. I mean, BL triggers from 4 steps, so 4 steps is already considered a great height that causes stagger in survivors, I'm more intending on an entire staircase before it starts having minor effects. As for 3% per sleeping survivor, thats kinda different because that lasts the entire time, 3% per survivor means that it impacts up to 10 seconds on solo gens. 20% faster kicking, isnt really impactful enough to make a difference, since there are only a few pallets per map that you want to spend time breaking, but if we're gonna assume people spend time dropping even extremely unsafe pallets, that's still an impact of 0,5 second per pallet. Meaning that you end up saving 5 seconds in chase time. Considering there tend to be 3 very safe pallets per match(on average) that saves you 1,5 seconds on average in a match.
A 5% stagger to everything and it would only work at high drops, which some maps dont even have, it would require 100 high drops per match on average for it to even compare to the pallets. 1000 drops per match on average, for it to match Freddy's slow down, which can be significant enough to be a difference between a 1k and a 4k. Even with old balanced landing I couldnt pull off 1000 drops per match on average as a survivor.
Let alone that the stagger is meant to prevent some killers from instantly using an ability when they touch the floor that allows them to instadown a survivor that cant even move yet or barely had time to move in a situation where they might not have earned an instadown in the first place. A mechanic that was implemented to stop infinites from being a thing is impacting places where no infinites are possible in the first place to be a free kill for some killers without having to plan ahead. Being able to do anything brainlessly and getting a massive reward from it without the opposition making a mistake should not be a gamemechanic. A trapper who brainlessly places a trap will catch survivors who brainlessly wander around. A clown who has a pinky finger bein able to bodyblock while refilling and then instadowning a survivor will have had the survivor having made a mistake. A survivor dropping out of the only window, falling down the only hole to prevent being instadowned by a billy but the billy having bamboozle and being able to fully rev his chainsaw before the survivor can even move, how is that a mistake by any means? At least before the last patch, you could sometimes use a window to cancel out the stagger when being chased by a billy or huntress(and huntress is already strong vs loops) and that was abused towards other killers(cus it was too strong against most killers) but now even that is gone. Adding a killer stagger that would cancel out an unneccesary strength for some killers by cancelling a channeling/charging of an ability(which can also be used in killer favor, example being Freddy's class photo addon) once they touch the ground, without impacting m1 killers too much, if at all.
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@Steah said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1290917#Comment_1290917
If the change is that small then why even bother adding it
Lots of changes have been small. OoO and Sole Survivor got a small change to essentially not be that different in practice. Skillchecks when using Selfcare have been decreased with 2.5%, which is a very small change. Brutal Strenght applying to generators was also a very small and practically insignificant change, Bloodhound slightly increased the brightness of bloodstains, even though bloodstains arent that hard to trace in the first place.
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@SaltedSnow said:
Killers effectively do have a stagger. They lose momentum, just like the hag does with her traps.
False, they do not lose momentum. Window vaulting does stop momentum, but you can also start momentum mid-air. Its how skilled survivors dodge beartraps in the funnel drop in The Game. Killers can do the same. Hag only loses momentum with her trap because its a teleport.
And yeah, even with bamboozle its slower than survivors, just like how balanced landing still gives you a stagger thats still infinitely larger than the killer.
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@TheeHappyDalek said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1290932#Comment_1290932
I feel like we will just have to respectfully agree to disagree. I mean you want killers to get slowed down from falling when there's already teamwork, and flashlights, and tool boxes, and looping, and pallets, and decisive strike, and med kits working against that one killer.
And it's not like that other game we won't mention by name Why you have to find car keys and a gas tank and a battery, we run up to a generator and hold R1. I feel like this is probably someone who enjoys playing killer talking to someone who enjoys playing survivor so of course you and I see different sides of the same coin. I just, I don't know man. I feel like killers already have enough stacked against them. I mean even being hit by a killer right? The killer has to stop for a minute and shake his weapon off while at the same time whoever gets hit bolts forward with a speed boost. And you know, I'm kind of a new player I haven't been playing as long as likely yourself, other folks. maybe I'll feel differently 200 hours from now or something. But it feels like people are asking for another way to make 3 minute games 2 minutes and 30 seconds instead.
"when there's already teamwork, and flashlights, and tool boxes, and looping, and pallets, and decisive strike, and med kits working against that one killer."
This only truly works when randoms just click well together or when there is a 4-man SWF. Using that as a basis, I might aswell start using people like Otz who got a 4k using Bubba and the speedlimiter addon to say that Bubba is fine without an instadown.
"I feel like this is probably someone who enjoys playing killer talking to someone who enjoys playing survivor so of course you and I see different sides of the same coin."
Nah, I play both, red ranks consistently aswell. And I dont see any real downside in my average killer games. Yes, I'd be destroyed slightly easier vs optimal SWF, but optimal SWF is NOT the standard. I'd still easily get a 2-3k in my average game. Hell, I've had games where I played killer, went to the bathroom to pee mid game and still ended up getting a 4k.
"I mean even being hit by a killer right? The killer has to stop for a minute and shake his weapon off while at the same time whoever gets hit bolts forward with a speed boost."
The killer animation isnt that long and the speedboost is only big enough to make it to the nearest structure before the killer catches up. And then you have to hope 1. pallets spawned there and 2. no one wasted said pallet before you arrived there. I've had plenty of games where I ran up to a structure, expecting there to be a pallet since pallet spawns in other structures were low and still not have a pallet there, meaning the speedboost I gained from the hit was voided by RNG ######### me over. So I was forced to use an unsafe window instead and hope the killer didnt know there was no pallet. Let alone the amount of times where I was the second person being chased and ALL the strong pallets were already broken. The speedboost gained from tanking a hit while the killer moves at 20% speed while cleaning his weapon isnt that much of a downside. Let alone that there are plenty of ways to force survivors to either ignore their teammate, guaranteeing you a kill, or speed up the gen fixing.
"But it feels like people are asking for another way to make 3 minute games 2 minutes and 30 seconds instead."
Hypothetically, the fastest game is 3 minutes. Assuming the killer does not patrol any gens, 3 survivors bringing a toolbox with BNP and 1 bringing a key, 2 people having prove thyself, everyone running no mither, resilience and spinechill while the killer looks at all survivors at the same time, every survivor knows where all the generators are from the beginning, do a 1/1/1/1 split on the first 4 generators and it being a relatively small map and the hatch spawning directly next to the final gen, also happening to be a 4 man gen, while survivors do a key escape.
The average game in reality, is about 10 minutes long. I've even had games that lasted nearly 20 minutes simply because the killer set up a 3 gen from the moment the game started and was essentially waiting for survivors to sacrifice themselves in favor of doing gens. There are many ways a killer can slow down the game. Chasing someone does not slow down match time. Chasing someone allows 3 people who are not being chased to do gens instead. Chasing someone for 5 gens is a mistake you made. Sometimes you just need to admit defeat and know someone is gonna outplay for 5 minutes, and if they can outplay you for 5 minutes, they can outplay you for 5 gens. Thinking a 5% stagger would impact the game that much is simply not true. Either you already were gonna catch a person, or you werent. There is less than 1% of players that would escape your grasp by that 5% stagger, unless you really use the lack of stagger in your advantage(revving billy, charging huntress, for example). Which is even less of a playerbase.
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@Lumionesty said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1289902#Comment_1289902
If you were to take away the speed advantage it would be literally impossible for 90% of the killers to catch a survivor. The killer should have advantages in the chase. The survivors also have their own set of advantages with pallets and fast vaults. It would be ridiculous if I recommend for killers to be able to fast vault wouldn’t it?
Fast vault, yes, because their vaulting speed is already the same regardless of the angle, while survivors need a straight path for 2 meters to succesfully fast vault. However, the argument can be made that killer base vaulting speeds should be a bit lower. Which I can get behind. I mean, if we're giving BL technically a buff, then we can also give Bamboozle technically a buff.
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@Bubbas_mallet said:
No. Killers vault slowly.
Bamboozle is a perk, yknow.
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@Ghostwithaface said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1289224#Comment_1289224
So if the roles are balanced enough at this point or the game is already petty balance right now. Why would they need to change something? Since the term balance enough or already petty balance, makes it sound like things are fine as is. That changing it would be a bad idea. It doesn't like sound adding this idea in is good at all. That and you say this idea is for balance, when here the thing. It's not been tested at all. So we have no idea how this will effect things, outside of making balance landing stronger. Making the idea oh hey you are only against it due to being bad killers, sounds questionable, when there is a lack of date. Many people like to have date and how this would effect things in reality and not just on paper. Since many ideas sound great on paper but turn out to be awful in reality. That and this idea would not effect nurse at all. Also Oni can't use Demon Strike when falling down, so it sort of already exist for his power. That and your using red ranks to favor your point, you are aware even the devs have stated, rank is not a matter of skill but rather mere how much you play?
Which also this idea would buff balance landing, by allowing a balance landing user to gain more distance from a killer, due to the killer suffering from slow down. Which would once again harm slower killers the most. That and the idea seems to be oh survivors suffer from this, so killers also must. Killers have to hunt down and hook each survivor three times, making their role different from survivors. Even if we ignore that, killers don't currently have any perk that negate this down side. While survivors not only has a perk that negates this downside but gain a speed boost, allowing them to cover great distance. So if we go with one side suffers from it why not the other? Well where the perk for killers to negate this downside and gain a benefit from it? Could we get a change to a existing perk or a brand new one, to help killers overcome this down side like survivors?
That and since you make it out to seem to be a very minor thing, when you say you are not wanting to make a massive change, which lead me to, why should we focus on this over something like fixing ghostface's reveal, which has a far bigger effect on gameplay for both ghostface and the survivors?
If the issue is indeed a big deal or one that must be dealt with, another way to take care of the op issue, would be with better map design or simply reducing the negative effect survivors suffer from when falling. Since we could always reduce the sagger time for survivor by 0.5 seconds, which would lead to the same effect, if a survivor is not using balance landing. Since the survivor gets back up on their feet faster.
"Well where the perk for killers to negate this downside and gain a benefit from it?"
Well, BL wasnt introduced untill after the stagger was added in. And I agree, there should be a perk that does that if it were to be implemented.
"Since we could always reduce the sagger time for survivor by 0.5 seconds, which would lead to the same effect, if a survivor is not using balance landing. Since the survivor gets back up on their feet faster."
Not exactly, giving the killer stagger would impact Killer abilities and carrying, which in some cases is beneficial to the game, because it can give Billy and Huntress a necessary nerf that is small enough without truly impacting the strength of their kits, it would simply add a weakness, let alone that going for the basement while there is a hook nearby, which is easy to do if you drop from the stairs, would actually have a bit of risk when there otherwise is none(I mean, going across the map for the basement is a risk, but im talking about when you're easily within normal wiggle range). Reducing survivor stagger doesnt solve any of that. The stagger isnt meant to impact the chase much, which is why i've been advocating a tiny impact. The stagger is meant so killers would be forced to release their ability before touching the ground. While it could also be used to help make weaker killer stronger without making them too strong(bubba could easily be "rooted" on the ground and then charge the chainsaw faster with a larger speed for a short time, making you actually want him to stagger mid-chase).
Point being, it would make otherwise super easy downs with billy and huntress a bit harder to pull off, while allowing to improve killer gameplay in general.
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@TheeHappyDalek said:
Just my two cents. You say that killers should be staggered like survivors. Michael Myers in the original Halloween was shot five times and fell backwards out of a two-story window landing on his back only to get up and be gone before they had time to cross the bedroom and look down to see if he was dead.
Jason has been shot, beheaded, stabbed, blown up, lit on fire, he's still killing.
Survivors can wiggle out of someone like leatherface's grasp despite the fact that he's a towering monstrosity with unearthly strength in the movies.
Look at the spirit. How do you stun an etheral ghost with a 5 lb wood pallet?
These killers are not supposed to be on equal footing with the survivors they're hunting. If that was the case the original Halloween would have been an 8 second movie. The movie would have ended the moment she hit him with the car outside of the asylum.
So I understand your frustration, but these are other worldly unstoppable monsters from movies we all love. They absolutely should not be treated as your basic human being.
Correct, however, these survivors are able to fix generators without ever having learned to do so. As for staggering and slowing down. Yeah, the killers were slowed down and staggered. When Myers was shot, he was slowed down. Not stopped, but slowed down.
There are a lot of other things in this game that need some changing, like an easy haddonfield nerf would simply turn 1 or 2 of the flat roofs into balconies with only 1 entrance. There should be more rooms that are small enough to tank a hit and escape a killer, but once injured, a death trap. You already have the Saloon room with 3 breakable doorways and 1 window, that is essentially a death trap. We need more rooms like that. We'd need large wooden crates that would essentially qualify for killer pallets, that a killer could quickly push/kick into a doorway/in front of a window that takes time for survivors to break down, making a doorway and/or window inaccesible for a loop unless actively taken down(aka, giving survivors an objective other than generators). There is an easy solution to shutting down godloops to a point where survivors actually have to spend time earning back the loop. Giving killers 2 possible ways of breaking a strong loop prematurely(breaking doors and kicking crates) without costing too much preptime. Let alone that the game needs a lot more unsafe pallets in deadzones. But just because that all is needed on killer-side, doesnt mean there isnt anything on killer-side that is particularly strong that might need a tiny bit of a nerf in today's meta.
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@Steah said:
For the sake of realism survivors should move slower when they are injured and being injured should be like deep wound and you shouldn't be able to mend yourself if you don't have a med kit and you aren't playing Adam or Claudette.
Oh if we're gonna go with ultra realism: Bubba and Billy should need to refill their chainsaws because it empties after revving it so much. Doctor should recharge his static charge at one point since electricity doesnt last forever. Destroying hooks should be permanent again. The gate should open instantly once the switch is flipped. Survivors should be able to rebuild pallets from the broken pieces. Or make a wooden spike and kill the killer with it.
If you gonna apply ultra realism counter argument to a tiny, fairly insignificant change that wont impact the game as much as you'd think, dont bother replying.
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@HollowsGrief said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/153986/killers-should-have-some-stagger-effect
Fine we can do that, but I want to be able to quick vault windows like you do then.
Got bamboozle doing that for you. I mean, the counter argument is balanced landing existing, well, bamboozle reduces the vault speed AND blocks the window from being reused without the survivor even knowing untill its too late.
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@emptyCups said:
More killer nerfs ? I vote no to that.
I can't remember the last time I didn't escape... why does everyone need to make Survior so easy ?
I Vote No on staggering a monster ghost or demon from a fall lore wise
What would the nurse stumble on her floating ?
Past year has only been killer buffs, practically no nerfs. Except for Ruin. Technically legion got nerfed, but his power was gamebreaking with no counterplay. Once there is no counterplay, yeah, killers recieve a nerf. There are some killers that are extremely strong for todays meta(I mean, Billy's addons are getting reworked for a reason), but having a vanilla power interrupting mechanic when there should be some interruption, allows to make those killers slightly weaker without making them too weak. As for not escaping, thats not really a problem here. The problem is people who are of a lower skill being able to pull of something incredibly easy with massive rewards without any risk of doing so. I mean, Ebony Mori and Skeleton Key's are literally scrutinized for this. Yet, somehow a rank 20 playing billy with rev speed addons in Hawkins, dropping from 2 stories downing a survivor that's in a hallway and has no objects or pallets to dodge isnt a 0 risk high reward situation? There literally is no way to dodge in those hallways sometimes, because there are no guaranteed objects in that specific hallway. Yet a practically 0 skill player is free to down a high skill player and there is no problems there? Why the bias against keys then? Keys at least require enough skill to finish all 5 generators if you want a 4 man escape. Keys at least require 1 person to be able to find a closed hatch while possibly being chased by a killer. Yet 5% stagger on massive drops if a killer doesnt release his power before hitting the ground is too much? Adding some skill to a brainless situation is too much?
Killer isnt too hard to play either. You literally need an optimal 4 man on comms to be able to destroy a killer who isnt prepared for a 4 man on comms. But if the killer is prepared for an optimal 4 man on comms, they can still get at least a 2k, regardless of a tiny stagger. Yet anything that would be a QoL nowadays is considered a killer nerf? Vacuum windows got fixed so killers cant get a window hit as easily: killer nerf. Mending got altered because it made Legion way too powerful to be a killer in the game: killer nerf. Why is it that everything is a killer nerf? Sometimes things are just not fit for the current meta.
And yes, there are other things that need some altering. Some haddonfield houses should have a balcony that cannot be vaulted instead of a flat roof you can drop off anywhere, with a breakable door ofcourse. Meaning it essentially is a deathtrap as you can block the window with bamboozle or simply bodyblock it.
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@HellDescent said:
Maybe survivors should get stunned by pallets
Honestly, yes. If a survivor decides to vault to prevent a killer from kicking a pallet while the killer already started kicking the pallet, they should break the pallet instantly, drop on the floor and be stuck in an animation picking themselves up, aka getting a stun.
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@Deadeye said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1288614#Comment_1288614
"Haddonfield got a massive nerf when BL was nerfed" This is exactly the argument why killers should not stagger. There was a reason why BL on Haddonfield was hated so much and called OP and also a reason why this got nerfed, because old BL could create easy infinites on every loop with a window drop.
This generic change would basically mean, make all maps a Haddonfield + BL combo for killers. Of course a lesser effect that this OP **** but it heads into that direction and could possibly break game balance
Yeah, but are you really gonna compare 5% killer stagger to 75% survivor stagger reduction? It would be a slight buff to haddonfield being a survivor sided map. I dont really see 5% impacting haddonfield that much.
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@Dehitay said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1288674#Comment_1288674
Not a single killer got altered by the entity. They only got taken from their realm and placed in the entity's realm. Same with survivors for that matter. The closest thing they did to altering is taking away guns, guitars, and whatever from survivors that had them when being snatched.
No, they all got altered by the entity. They all underwent torture untill they did the Entity's bidding. Do you really think that Wraith looked like he did before he got snatched by the entity? It's well known lore that the Entity will torture and punish killers into doing the Entity's bidding. The only seemingly exceptions to the (physical) torture, are the licenced killers, but lets be honest here, their style of hunting survivors already match the views of the entity.
As for survivors, in the realm, they are literally immortal. They get constantly revived. You really gonna claim that there is no alteration there? You really wanna go claim the survivors were already immortal?
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@Orion said:
No, you may not have loops indirectly buffed by having killers nerfed in a way that makes no sense. Unless you want to go with what this guy said here:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1288647#Comment_1288647
Nobody who wants the game to be balanced will support this.
And another killer main who is too biased to see otherwise.
- its 0.3 seconds at most, 0.03 at the least. It takes 0.1 seconds on average to blink, does that affect your gameplay too?
- its an oppertunity to buff weaker killers aswell, while also nerfing incredibly strong spammable abilities slightly once they touch the ground, meaning they could still trigger it while mid-air, before touching the ground to negate any stagger.
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@Dwinchester said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/153986/killers-should-have-some-stagger-effect
Stop whining. Killers need buffs, not nerfs. There are still a ton of resources for survivors to use, they don't need killer to stagger on a fall. Use balanced landing if you're concerned about it.
Yes, I know bl got nerfed, but ruin got hit hard, the current slowdown perks are a complete joke, and the gen times are ridiculously fast.
In the current state of the game, if you're losing as survivor, it's 100% on you, because killer doesn't stand a chance.
You're ignoring a few things:
RNG for pallets, perks, random survivors ignoring to unhook you, unskilled killers that are able to recieve a hit when they shouldnt, latency ######### you over, Mori's, iri heads, random survivors taking down haunted grounds while you're the one being chased, randoms deciding to loop around your ######### hook and then blaming the killer for camping.
So no, if you're losing as a survivor, its at most 15% on you in the current state of the game. Yes, with a full 4 man swf, if they are all on my skill level, then still no, because most of the game comes down to mindgaming. If you lose as a killer, its 75% on you for greeding, 25% on the survivors making practically no mistakes. Stop ######### greeding for people, and perhaps you'll see why killers do not need buffs.
You can play the game perkless and add-onless with Billy, Huntress, Nurse, Spirit, Freddy, Trapper, Hag, Myers, Ghostface, Pig, Plague, Legion, and even Bubba for crying out loud, and STILL get a 2k with relative if you put your attention on the right person rather than simply chasing who you're chasing just because you're chasing them. Ever seen an Ayrun video? Guess how many of those killers would have actually gotten a 3k if they simply swallowed down their pride and went for the weaker links on the gens instead? Yeah, a survivor like Ayrun can loop a killer for 5 gens if the killer is predictable. But did they lose because Ayrun was so good, or because they refused to stop a chase they knew they wouldnt be able to win?
SO STOP WHINING ABOUT KILLERS NEEDING A BUFF WHEN THEY DO NOT, WHEN THERE IS A ######### VANILLA GAMEMECHANIC THAT REQUIRES A PERK TO COUNTER.
As for slowdown perks? Easy: take ruin, look out for a 3 gen, preferably with Ruin in the center or nearby one of those gens, make sure the survivors never get close to that 3 gen untill the end, grab surveillance, get tinkerer and discordance and tadaa. Impossible 3 gen that cannot be broken unless they allow you to hook the survivors. I mean, "If YoU'rE sO cOnCeRnEd AbOuT iT", there is a gen pressure build, if you lose that 3 gen, then its 100% your fault.
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@Dehitay said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1288721#Comment_1288721
The loopability on the top floor of Thompson was limited to the short loop right at the top of the stairs, but the bottom floor was constantly used to slow or lose killers. Like every other main building in the game, it's one of the first places survivors will run through if given the chance cause they know it will slow the killer enough to get to pallet nearby if they haven't been used.
To this day, the coaltower topfloor is constantly used whenever the map pops up into rotation. It's ridiculously easy to wait at the top floor for the killer go get to the top of the stairs and then drop down and run to a safe area or loop back in through the building when the window was there.
Left side of harvesters might get used rarely, but that's only because most survivors will only do what they've been taught to do without any creativity. Fortunately, it's not a popular strategy to go onto the haybale side and bait the killer around to the right side and then double vault to the opposite side. If they actually did that, it would stop me from being able to quick end their typical thoughtless looping pattern on that loop.
Unsafe pallets are most useful for the stun, but you can still use them to get distance regardless. And with very few exceptions (those ridiculously small walls around pallets at the bottom of the temple), the stun is up to the the survivor more than the killer. Even if the killer respects pallets and refuses to take the stun, if they backed off right before the drop, then you still have the distance to run away before they can catch up again.
Doorways? You mean the open space I was talking about? The lack of a structure? Yeah, as I mentioned previously, those non-structure structures are in the killer's favor. As for the ski lodge, that building is still wildly survivor sided. Survivors are constantly running upstairs every time you get near it. And they don't do that en masse because it's a bad idea.
Slowing gap closing and being survivor sided are different in the fact that one is a subset of the other rather than the two of them being an equivalency. And yes, the slowdown on LF's chainsaw rev is survivor sided. Why the hell do you think he's considered one of the worst killer's in the game? But if for some incomprehensible reason you think it's not survivor sided, then convince all the other survivor mains to petition to get that killer sided effect out of LF's power. I can garuntee that killer mains will back you on that one.
I like how you mention unsafe pallets twice showing you're struggling to think here. But the only pallet I can think of that gives survivors a 10 second timer before getting hit is the one in the basement of the temple. All other short loop pallets can be dropped and then continue running while the pallet makes the loop longer unless the killer decides to break it. The fact that some survivors try to use short loop pallets like loopable pallets is their own fault.
And again back to pallets. The fact that you can take advantage of survivor mistakes involving pallets only means that survivors make mistakes involving pallets. The fact that pallets are still to a survivor's advantage is something anybody who thinks rationally has to admit if they're being honest. It's seriously ridiculous to insist otherwise, and yet 3 times now you've tried to say that pallets aren't survivor sided.
If by fairly few issues outside of Haddonfield you mean Coal Tower, Ironworks of Misery, Blood Lodge, Disturbed Ward, Campbell's Church, Pale Rose, Grim Pantry, Lery's, Mother's Dwelling, the Game, and Ormond, then fairly few issues.
No, there was 0 loopability on the top floor. It was literally just being in a chase, there was no usable window, no usable way of gaining distance, it was literally just dragging the killer away from people who were working on generators nearby without the killer hearing those generators. If those generators were done, there was no reason to really go inside the house. As for the bottom floor, the only way to lose the killer was using the lockers, there were no windows, no way to increase the distance, only lockers. Baby survivors would head for that building because it was a building, but any decent survivor would rather run through the cornfield and use the corn to disappear than go for the building. If a cornfield is a better option than a building, then yeah, the building is quite killer sided.
Yeah, its used as a hiding spot because there is no reason to go there otherwise. Any smart killer would not go for anyone who is already upstairs.
And yeah, you're correct with that, but the problem being is that 1. if its a fast vault, you can hear and see it and walk towards it before they drop. 2. if its a slow vault, you hear them making sound while falling(because any height thats higher than a haybale is worth yelling about nowadays). So even if they did it once, they would be giving you a free hit unless you were somehow are so taken by surprise that muscle memory just pulls you back to the right side without a second thought, while the same old boring loop on the right allows for more time being wasted, even if it still guarantees a hit.
There are only 2 unsafe pallets that I encounter that actually increase survivor distance rather than decrease it. So its literally a one time use of increasing distance while you drop the pallet, after that, its more a killer structure.
Just because they run upstairs before you get there, doesnt mean its survivor sided. I can run from a killer shack generator in a bee line towards the main building through the cornfield before you go inside and see my scratchmarks. That doesnt make cornfields survivor sided.
My point was that if even a LF is behind you and starts charging up, he increases the distance, but his ability easily closes that gap and gives him an instadown, which is less time than a wraith having to uncloak. Let alone that bubba has the biggest potential and can theoretically down all survivors in 1 swoop. So no, on paper, its not survivor sided. The whole reason why bubba is bad, is because the only way he can use his potential uber strength, is to literally camp. His mobility is incredibly strong in a chase, let alone that to be able to use a locker against bubba, you need a frame perfect input. Bubba has his strengths, but his main strength is too niche of a situation that it requires a fully silent chainsaw, losing his red stain and terror radius, and not being seen by any survivors while he does so. Which pretty much requires Beast of Prey, Dark Devotion and/or Tinkerer. Let alone that Spine Chill alone would counter this anyway. Perhaps making Bubba invulnerable to some actions unless 2+ survivors are in chase(for example, no pallet stuns and bubba just charging forward, faster window vaults, instantly breaking through breakable walls without any stun unless multiple people are within lunge/swoop range). But in a 1v1, Bubba still can get an instadown more easily than most other killers. Not that he gets a 4k easily, but he sure as hell can easily get a 1k.
No, not really, they are literally forced to take a hit, or vault and take a hit. At least in one case, they could use Lithe and get out, but since very few people even use Lithe, they can choose to use the speed boost or the pallet vault, not both.
And just because something can be advantageous by survivors DOES NOT make it survivor sided. A survivor can take advantage of the drop in Hawkins, by literally reducing their time to go down by 7 seconds. Yet is that drop survivor sided? HELL NO. A survivor can go into the basement while being chased, pick a random locker and hope they dont get picked first, taking advantage of the basement lockers while at extreme risk of being found and hooked. Does that make the basement survivor sided? According to you, yes. Because they can take advantage of it. Unsafe pallets are a killers advantage MORE than they are a survivors advantage, that makes it killer sided.
As for uses outside, yes, coal tower not really, you could use bamboozle to counter that loop easily, ironworks, yeah sure. Blood lodge, not really, again, bamboozle. Disturbed ward, yeah, but disturbed ward had a pallet issue that allowed that loop in the first place. Campbell, again, bamboozle. Pale Rose, kinda, but you could easily leave them there as you could guarantee a 3 gen anyway, so you would literally allow the survivors to loop you when you have a 3 gen you could secure. Lery's not really, only when the generator was powered, and then again: bamboozle. Mothers dwelling, again, bamboozle, the game, not really an infinite, a long loop for sure, but far from infinite. Unless you count the security chamber in that loop, in which case, again: bamboozle. Ormond kinda, but that was because of the many windows, not because of BL. BL only allowed them to have a shorter infinite. As for the one window that allows a massive gap: again bamboozle.
Almost all of them could be countered by bamboozle, so yeah, there was only truly 1 massive issue other than haddonfield. The other ones would simply be longer loops than they should be, but just as managable as a survivor constantly blinding you with a flashlight everytime you're forced to vault/kick a pallet. "but that's forcing killers to use bamboozle when they just want to casually play". Yes, just as survivors were forced to either use Stake Out or BNP against Ruin if they wanted a casual game. Which is why Ruin was changed aswell.
Having a stagger in game, would reduce the need for DS in games, allowing for DS to recieve changes. DS and Unbreakable are so common, because wiggling is so weak and slugging is so strong. Adding in a mechanic that allows survivors to pre-plan and go upstairs first would force killers to either take the long way or give survivors less time to wiggle out. Let alone that it also allows to slightly nerf some very strong killers without making them too weak, while also allowing them to increase the strength for weaker killers without making them too strong.
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@Meroko said:
Adding a killer stagger to falling defeats the purpose of perks like Balanced Landing, so I say absolutely not to this idea.
How? Seriously, HOW would it defeat balanced landing? I mean, does bamboozled or entity windowblocks defeat the purpose of Lithe, Quick&Quiet and Dance With Me? Does Spirit Fury defeat the purpose of pallets? Does Nurse defeat the purpose of structures? NO. And why not? because you can still use other windows, you still get a bonus out of using a pallet stun vs someone who uses spirit fury, you still can use structures against nurse.
Or better yet: does killers walking at 115% defeat the purpose of survivors running? No, and thats a 15% difference.
A 5% stagger is nothing compared to a 100% stagger. Its literally going from a 100% difference to a 95% difference.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1288667#Comment_1288667
Every time something is changed to stop "brainless" plays, console gets screwed hard. Legion annoys people with constant stabby stabby? Well, now missing a hit takes him out of Feral Frenzy. Any idea how easy it is to whiff on console? Especially with the frame drops and everything else? Or Nurse, getting a cooldown so her Blinks can't be "brainlessly spammed." She's slow as crap, her Blinks are necessary just for map mobility, and while I have slightly more success aiming her Blinks over Huntress's hatchets, I still only touch her for the memes, now.
What would adding a stagger do? Well, for one, it'd probably cause more frame drops for killers. In an ideal world, that would not be a problem. But it is a problem. Whatever may seem like a "small nerf" on paper ends up having unintended consequences. Maybe it's framerate drops. Maybe it's survivors making sure they get downed on a second-story area because they know the killer will have a harder time getting them to a hook with the added stagger/wiggle penalty, especially since it gives another survivor a bit of extra time for sabo'ing. Maybe it's something I can't even predict due to the game's notorious spaghetti code
Consistency would also be a problem. Huntress can't drop down and still have a hatchet ready? Hillbilly can't still have his chainsaw revved? Then will it also take Legion out of Frenzy? Will this affect Plague when she's normal or only when she has Corruption? How will this affect Spirit if she drops off a height mid-phasewalk? I'm not looking for these questions to be answered, I'm saying these are questions that devs would have to ask themselves, and it's inevitable that weak killers will get hit harder by this change because they always do.
I also don't want them to nerf killers just to create a new perk that undoes that nerf while taking up one of the four very valuable perk slots.
It may seem like my post goes off-topic, but I'm just trying to point out that there's a very real possibility that a change like this would hit harder than you expect. Not to mention, programming all this would be very complex. Every killer is different, so there are a lot of factors to take into consideration. A "small QoL change" would actually be a pretty time-consuming endeavor to implement, and they'd be ironing out bugs for the rest of the game's lifespan.
Also, is it really so wrong that there's an element on the map that doesn't outright benefit survivors? Pallets benefit survivors. Lockers benefit survivors. Structures usable for looping benefit survivors. All without needing any perks. And drops can benefit survivors if they bring a specific perk. In general, stuff exists on maps just to make killers' lives harder. The only thing that adds any hazards to the map for survivors are killers with traps. Otherwise, it's a survivor playground.
In conclusion, I really don't want another thing that slows down Clown.
Legion's constant stabby stabby was overpowered on pc, it was essentially Mad Grit, allowing for a very easy hit, and an easy hit means easy next target. So there was 0 skill. Yeah, it ######### over console, but to be fair, Legion's mobility is much easier to control on console.
Nurse always had a "cooldown" by adding a stun. The only change was that she couldnt spam 2 blinks after fatique, which allowed her to averagely move at 150% on any map. The current cooldowns lower her average movement speed to 120%. You cannot allow brainlessness on PC. And yeah, it cucks console, but playing survivor on console also has its downsides. It's easier to get a 360 using a controller, but its practically impossible to side step on console without giving away where you're side stepping to. I can do an instant 90 degree turn using my keyboard, allowing me to run straight and bait a throw, then sidestep and dodge a throw no matter how close. Using a controller, I cant unless im willing to stop moving for a fraction of a second, practically giving the hit to the killer.
And yeah, console has its issues, which is why crossplay isnt enabled by default(it is implemented already, but console players have to enable it, while pc players have it enabled by default). It could add frame drops, but I dont really see how. Does survivors dropping cause a frame drop?
And yeah, that would exactly be an implications. Survivors who KNOW they are going down giving a location where they want to go down. It wouldnt really impact going to a hook too much, as hooks are plenty. So if you fake going to one of the hooks on the right, you should easily reach another one thats on your left before they have time to even touch the hook. If you cant, then you've allowed the survivor to run to a location where they can take maximum advantage of wiggling in the first place. If you have hooked 2 people in 1 corner, having a 3rd hook at 50 meters distance, it's your mistake for your lack of hook awareness. It's not that hard to force a survivor away from a zone where there is a lack of hooks while in a chase. And if they can make it thanks to exhaustion perks? Just leave em slugged. You'd either be forcing them to use unbreakable or have someone save them. Meaning less people that can do gens while you're chasing someone else.
Not exactly, Legion's ability activates instantly. It would only affect charging abilities. As a plague, you dont really want to be holding your puke while you drop anyway as it decreases the distance it can reach. As for other effects, they could actually buff weaker killers because of the stagger. A staggered Clown could have a bigger slow/longer range/bigger area of effect/faster reload times for a few seconds. A staggered Demogorgon could go for a dash that reaches further. A spirit, well, would be staggered mid-phase, which is a nerf and spirit can do with some extra nerfs anyway.
Oh really? So you mean, how they added Stagger just so they could create Balanced Landing? Or how they added co-op generator slowdown just so Prove Thyself could be reworked? Or how they removed instaheals so that For The People can be a thing? Or how they added reasons to go into lockers so that Iron Maiden can be a thing?
Basically, killers without staggers are overly strong in certain situations, the same reason why survivor staggers were added in the first place. All they need is a slight stagger to solve that. And you can easily create new perks that could change an otherwise stale meta.
Oh yes, just like the BL nerf literally changed the survivor meta, or how the EGC literally changed the meta, or how plague's perks literally changed the killer meta, or how doc's buff changed the doctor meta, or how stealth killers' buff changed the meta, or how adding in a new killer changes the meta. Yes, if it gets added, it will change the killer meta. As for programming? No, just a simple copy paste from survivor stagger, lowering the effect by 90-95% and having it affect charging and the wiggle timer. Then either add a positive or negative effect depending on killer strength, which does require a bit of coding, but its just a seperate script, make sure it only gets triggered by a stagger and you're done. It's easier and quicker than making new killers, which they seem to be doing 3-4 times a year anyway. So having a year with 3 killers and 1 QoL update rather than a year with 4 killers would be very nice.
As for ironing out bugs, well, there arent really any game affecting bugs in the game right now. There is 1 uncleansable totem on Lery's at the moment, which is extremely strong if its Devour Hope or Noed(it will almost always be noed as its the only one that cannot be cleansed), but most other bugs are practically non-existant. Dedicated servers have a larger impact on the game than bugs nowadays, and that's honestly a good thing, even though I really hate it when a dedicated server decides I still get hit when the killer is upstairs and I am downstairs.
Yes, because if it doesnt benefit survivors in any way, there is no reason for a survivor to go there, meaning it doesnt benefit killers either.
- Weak pallets benefit killers(its a free hit), strong pallets benefit survivors.
- Lockers dont really benefit survivors unless they have DS, otherwise its an instant hookstate. At best it buys them 3 extra seconds before they take a hit.
- Structures usable for looping often allow for a killer to get some decent mindgaming to still get a hit, meaning if you're a better mindgamer, you still get a hit.
Having a structure that has 0 benefit for survivors is a structure that has 0 benefits for a killer. You might aswell remove that structure and give some benefit to a killer. As for hazards on a map, unsafe pallets are hazards. They are a false sense of security when they could have easily gone for something safer. Yes, if it was a dead zone, the killer would get a hit, *but that would be a boring as ######### game*. Structures exist to add some challenge to the game, an unsafe pallet is challenging for a survivor, while a safe loop is challenging for a killer. It's as much as a killer playground as its a survivor playground.
And like I said, you could use the stagger effect to give Clown a buff that could make him otherwise overpowered while he is staggered.
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@Lumionesty said:
I like the idea but personally I think it’s fine as it is. It doesn’t play huge parts in chases. Points of elevation are supposed to be a bit more risky for survivors. At the moment with the removal of god loops in my opinion the actual chase part of the game is very balanced. If you’re a good survivor you’ll be able to loop a killer whose worse then you. If you’re a good killer you’ll be able to catch a survivor whose worse then you. I just don’t see the point of adding more mechanics like this when elevation is supposed to be a bit risky. And it’s not like the stagger is that big. We don’t want to head in the direction of Infinite Haddonfield again.
Correct, but my reasoning is more because of:
- A killer picking up a survivor from the second floor and dropping down twice rather than taking the stairs has 0 impact, wiggling is already extremely underpowered to the point where survivors rely on DS more than Flip Flop, break out, unbreakable(to speed up recovery) and boil over combined because the effects of those perks, even combined, are practically useless unless someone is actively taking down hooks.
- Killers can charge up their ability that allows them to get a free hit/down without risk by dropping down, having the loss of speed by charging their ability fully negated without any repercussions.
- a lot of structures are currently ignored simply because its 100% risk, no reward for survivors. Adding a tiny stagger would change that to 98% risk, some reward, and if RNG is on their side, a huge reward IF they can pull it off. And with the amount of people trying the 4% on a hook, all they need is 2% wiggle room for them to risk it.
And yeah, there is a ton of things that are balanced, but there are some places where having 0 stagger just gives a killer too much of an advantage in some chases, which leads to point 3 of my reasoning. Why ever go in a direction where I would be giving the killer 100% a free hit when I could go in the opposite way, having a 99% chance of still getting hit but a 1% of getting a pallet stun? I rather run across an open field towards a strong pallet, possibly getting downed before I even get there, than going to a structure where there is 0% chance of loopability.
As for the stagger, well, 3 seconds is enough of a stagger for a killer to vault a window from the 2nd floor, land and still hit his ability. Which, in case of iri head huntress, pinky finger clown, billy and bubba, is practically a free instadown, similar to a full on bodyblock. So why make a second story window vault as strong as a full on bodyblock? As for adding new mechanics. Im actually all for new mechanics simply because it allows more creative perks and killer builds, as most killers are boring to play unless you have a very specific build. Having addons that could use the stagger to "root" a demogorgon into a stronger dash, or getting a perk that allows for a dash in a specific direction that you can combine together with a lunge, or giving nurse a massive distance where she can teleport to(meaning she can decide to drop down while charging and teleport practically halfway across the map), or having a plague have an addon that increases survivor stagger while sick, giving them a reason to cleanse more often, or forcing survivors to bleed slightly more/recieve a mangled status right after a drop that lasts for a few seconds, Clown could recieve a reload buff while staggered or give him a more powerful throw as the result of the stagger. Adding new mechanics that kinda nerf one aspect, allows them to buff other aspects of the game to balance out the viability of characters. I mean, Calm Spirit got a relatively weak mechanic added, but it makes it a ton more viable to run against a lot of killers. So while a killer stagger is technically a nerf, it can make a ton of things viable to add, making current weak killers a lot easier to buff without making them overpowered.
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@Dehitay said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1288673#Comment_1288673
There are indeed 2 oddities to that list. You for some reason think killer sided structures exist. The most killer sided structure is an open field which really isn't a structure. Everything else can be used to slow gap closing. And you also seem to think that killers can use pallets to their advantage. Outside of Freddy or Doc, there's nothing killers can do with pallets. Survivors are in complete control of pallets and killers can only use their pallet love to mind game them.
Btw, the problem with the old Balanced Landing was stuff like the Myer's house in Haddonfield. It has 3 windows and with old BL, the survivor could always get to another window before the killer could catch them meaning that if the killer was going to go after them instead of something else, they could drop 9 times before all the windows were blocked off and then go to another loop. Saying it was fair because you would eventually be able to catch a survivor given an infinite time frame is about as fair as saying that having the old Iron Grasp + Agitation combination was fair because you could still eventually wiggle out given an infinite time frame. But here's the reality of the situation: time allowed in this game isn't infinite. Making any balancing decisions based on that assumption is just utter foolishness.
Killer sided structures:
Thompson house(actually got a bit of a nerf), there was no loopability and the only reason to go there was a generator.
Ironworks coaltower, the rafters upstairs are only used for the chest and perhaps to try and hide while the killer goes downside, because neither the killer or survivors truly have a reason to be up there.
Left side of harvesters, if a survivor uses the left side without balanced landing, its a free hit for killers. The right side is heavily survivor sided.
Unsafe pallets, they are pretty much only usable for a killer stun, dropping the pallet without a stun gives the killer quite the advantage, especially if they try looping it, which they cant for more than 10 seconds without giving a hit.
Doorways, Mount Ormond's skilodge, which used to be heavily survivor sided due to a lack of openings, is now actually a killer-sided structure, if the basement spawns there, there is 1 godpallet in the whole building added to compensate, if the basement spawns in the killershack and you try looping, you might aswell run in a straightline on an open field.
Slowing gap closing and being survivor sided are different things. Revving a chainsaw slows a killer with 15%, increasing the gap, but speeds the killer up with at least 15% and allows for an instadown. Would you call that slowing of gap closure survivor sided? I dont.
As for pallets, there are TONS of pallets in game that are very killer sided that can guarantee a hit within 10 seconds which you wouldnt get with other loops. If a loop decreases the time of getting a hit compared to the average structure: killersided if it increases the chance of a hit compared to the average structure: survivorsided.
If you need an example for a killer using a pallet in their advantage: I can use tons of unsafe pallets to easily bait them to hop over a pallet once, guaranteeing me a hit while they go for a second pallet vault, lowering their damage boost they could otherwise use to run to a safe structure and shortening the chase by a massive amount of time. A decent survivor can loop me around a safe structure for roughly 60 seconds, so if there is a pallet I can use that forces them to go a different direction because I reduced their damage boost, to a structure where the average survivor can loop me for 20 seconds, that is a killersided pallet, wouldnt you say?
I mean, how do you think survivor sided and killer sided maps are labeled that way? If the survivor has a higher chance of survival compared to the average map, then its survivor sided. If the survivor has a lower chance of survival compared to the average map, its a killer sided map. Or are you gonna claim there are no killer sided maps because there are no maps that guarantee a kill?
And again, yes, haddonfield was broken for old BL. But outside haddonfield, there were fairly few issues with BL. There were enough outside haddonfield to nerf the perk specifically rather than blocking haddonfield windows/replacing windows with doorways. But the point is, averagely, the PERMANENT 75% decrease didnt affect the killer's ability to get a 4k on the vast majority of maps. So if a 75% PERMANENT stagger decrease for survivors allows a killer to catch up with a survivor enough to get 4k's, then a 5-10% increase on killers should practically have 0 effect on killer statistics. It would slightly buff haddonfield, sure, but again, survivor stagger is based on the height they drop from. Having a 0.025-0.05 second stagger when a survivor would have a 0.5 second stagger doesnt affect the chase. It literally takes longer for you to blink. Are you gonna complain that blinking affects your ability to chase, because you lose track of the survivor for 0.08 seconds?
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@BigBrainMegMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1288658#Comment_1288658
It wouldn't be a buff, it'd be nothing.
True, but thats why I added technically. It would be a reason to use Nurse over other killers. Especially since the amount of Nurses I see is lower than the amount of Demogorgons.
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@Decarcassor said:
A lot of things in this game don't make sense. DBD is not meant to be a realistic simulator. Giving killers even a minor stagger would just be a blanket buff to drop loops, when we just had a whole mid-chapter patch dedicated to reducing the value of some long standing problematic loops.
Uhuh, but im going to repeat this once again:
Up untill 7 months ago, BL gave a permanent 75% stagger decrease. Which gave a ton of incredibly strong loops, yes, but most of them were managable. It was literally the only reason some killer-sided structures were being used and they were actually fun to use as there was still a big risk of the killer cutting you off quite easily. Coaltower only had the problem of having a window where there should be none. It was the only reason to use the left side of harvesters, because that vault is incredibly killer sided. It was the only reason to get on top of the Piers in backwater swamp. Nowadays, survivors stay in survivor sided structures only and run from survivor structure to survivor structure, skipping all the structures that would be beneficial for killers.
Nerfing BL gave a MASSIVE nerf to a lot of loops. Adding in a tiny bit on killer side wont affect the vast majority of loops and allows for new killer perks/skills to be implemented.
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@Sadsnacks said:
Aren't most of the killers ghosts, monsters, and demons? Why would they feel a stagger from anything?
Not really, most killers are simply humans who got slightly altered by the entity. But guess what? So are the survivors.
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@Dehitay said:
I'm all for making killers have the same chase advantages/disadvantages as survivors. Give them the same stagger effects on a fall. Give them the same vaulting speeds. Give them the same hitboxes for rounding corners.
Or are you not so much for making things similar and just wanting to nerf killers out of personal bias?
You're the one with a bias here. I play both survivor and killer equally nowadays.
Besides, its not the same advantage/disadvantage here. But going by your logic, lets make a list:
- Survivors can vault fast. Killers can vault slow.
- Survivors get a big stagger. Killers get NO stagger.
- Survivors can use some pallets to their advantage. Killers can use other pallets to their advantage
- Survivors constantly use survivor sided structures, dodging tons of hits. Killers get NO use out of killer sided structures, getting no easier hits
- Survivors walk slow. Killers walk faster than survivors can run.
Seems like there are 2 oddities in this list.
Perhaps altering killer stagger would give a reason for survivors to try out killer sided structures that are actually a lot more challenging than survivor sided structures, but they are not survivor viable at all. Would it make survivor sided structures stronger? Yeah, slightly, but killers were able to deal with those structures when Old BL reduced 75% of survivor stagger constantly, so they can easily deal with a 5% added stagger.
Or are you going to claim that no one could be caught when BL gave a permanent 75% stagger reduction? Because if you do, then you, sir, are blind.
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@metalklok said:
It'd just make looping easier
"It'd just make looping easier if you use balanced landing" There, fixed it for you.
I mean, balanced landing pre-nerf was literally used to remove 75% stagger while they tended to use deadhard instead. And killers were relatively fine. The only map that truly was hell to face people using old BL was Haddonfield. But with old BL nerfed, which massively buffed killers on quite a lot of maps outside of Haddonfield, there isnt a real reason not to add killer stagger. And again, it doesnt need to be anywhere near a chase ending stagger. Just a tiny stagger enough to force killers to play slightly smarter, rather than brainlessly dropping off a height.