ObsidianButterfly
ObsidianButterfly
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Take a look at the fate of Skull Merchant if you want an answer to that. She was unfairly persecuted for doing something unique and different and requiring more than a single brain cell to deal with, and now is the absolute worst killer in the game.
We aren't allowed to have nice things anymore. Just dashes and projectiles. BHVR is basically telling people that if you don't like those particular play styles, you should just quit.
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@Crowman said:
I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect any new killer being released at this point to have a fully unique power.
Considering every time they do something new people screech until they are nerfed into the ground and then reworked into ANOTHER dash or projectile killer....yea, you are probably right. No uniqueness or innovation allowed, just boring repetition of the same two things.
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3933403#Comment_3933403
It's simple. Anything that's not dash/projectile are simply not viable especially in high level. And people aren't gonna buy Killers that are weak.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3933461#Comment_3933461
Just take a look at Skullmerchant, from a trap-based killer to Twins/Singularity 2.0.
I was hoping FNAF would be an interesting stealth killer, but no, just a guy who throws axe with teleport :(
Bull. The only reason trap killers aren't viable is because every time they come close, people cry and scream about having to utilize more than a single brain cell until they are nerfed into oblivion.
Might as well just delete the entire roster and give Blight 4000 skins that turn him into the other killers at this point.
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If it's not a dash killer, it's a projectile killer.
Because we aren't allowed to have anything else, apparently.
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@SkinnyWoman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3933258#Comment_3933258
If that's what you gathered from the post then I have no choice but to laugh at you. Since you missed it the first time, I'll explain it again in shorter sentences for you: 1) Behaviour should NOT buff killers which are already overpowered and continue to nerf those which are not 2) Behaviour should not penalise survivors by removing the 4% base chance of unhooking which literally exists for a reason 3) Behaviour needs to incentivise survivors to, you know, play the game, and implementing changes that consistently make their experience more unbearable is about as smart as your response to my post. Hope this helps!
So what is YOUR solution, in that case?
What could they possibly do to incentivize survivors sticking around the whole match if the main problem is killers? And while I don't entirely agree with removing the 4% chance, it is clearly being abused by people in order to avoid DC penalties. What alternative do YOU think they should take to combat that?
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@SkinnyWoman said:
Very sad to see some of these changes from behaviour. I've been a survivor main since 2018 and have purchased every single available survivor skin to support the developers, but this is the final nail in the coffin. Not only have they repeatedly shadow nerfed survivors with things like making them start the match together which significantly reduces gen-spread in the early game and the mori change which means the final survivor cannot wiggle off of use DS, they consistently buff killers which are already extremely oppressive and ignore all survivor feedback. Instead of removing the 4% chance of unhooking yourself, which was already ridiculously low, why would you not attempt to address the issues which lead to people going next in the first place? There are killers on 2000+ winstreaks in this game and many killers are already at or approaching a 70% win rate. Do you want the kill rates to be 80%? Then 90%? Then every match instantly beginning with a 4k? Where do we draw the line now? The changes will do NOTHING to fix any of the real issues in this game that consistently cause new players to leave, specifically the disgusting propensity of killer mains to make the lives of survivor mains miserable. Why would a new player stick with the game when the current narrative is that as long as you get a 4k the manner in which you've done so is irrelevant? If hook suicides are the hill behaviour decides to die on rather than the shockingly high prevalence of slugging, tunneling and killers that are designed to end chases in 0.5 seconds, then I will happily watch the company dissolve. Since their other games aren't doing well, I'm unsure why they consistently decide to alienate 80% of their player base to appease the 20% which have received nothing but buffs over the last 3 years. Just look at the state of 2v8: they are begging survivors to play, yet every match with The Legion is miserable and results in an instant loss unless the killer has diabetes retinopathy.
I don't anticipate Behaviour will take anything seriously unless I preface it with begging for singularity buffs, who was obviously in despserate need of buffs when he can end chases in literally 3 seconds. The company are obviously sorely out of their depth and out of touch with reality at this point; maybe it's time for survivors to finally admit that the devs no longer care about our gameplay experience and are content with ensuring it remains as miserable as possible. Don't worry, keep buying skins though and vote Behaviour for Labour of Love! Yeah, no thanks.
From what I've seen the "cause" of the current giving up epidemic basically comes down to "killers are way too strong."
Your entire solution boils down to "nerf every killer to be Skull Merchant levels of terrible" so that there is no need to "go next" because every killer is so impotent that looping them infinitely and escaping is easy. In no universe is that an acceptable solution.
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I have yet to see a single person present an idea that is better to fix the "go next" epidemic that doesn't involve nerfing every killer to be Skull Merchant levels of bad or buffing survivors to such insane levels that the result is the same; survivors basically can never lose. That seems to be what people want; killers to be so impotent there is no need to "go next" since escape will be easy.
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@ThatRyanB said:
Hey folks! I wanted to drop in to share thanks from the team and give you a little update.
First off, from myself and the rest of the team, thank you SO much for all the time and insightful thoughts you've offered up while sharing your feedback on this Design Preview! It's been immensely helpful in giving the folks working on this design a good idea of what players are liking the sounds of, and what they feel may not be landing. Both sides of this are important parts of the design sauce!
With that said, the team has taken this feedback - drawn from both Design Previews - and are working through it as they consider what's next for Skull Merchant's rework. This process may take some time, but we will share more about Skull Merchant when the time is right.
In the meantime, thank you once again for your help in detailing all of this valuable feedback!
I'm absolutely terrified about what sort of horrific abomination that completely goes against her identity you guys are going to come up with next.
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@PixelBush said:
I am back from my little break!
My full feedback video has been made - I can provide the script if written text would make things easier. Fair warning before you take a look: it's absurdly long but there's a lot, both good and bad, to talk about.
https://youtu.be/w2C-VxFUISk
The only thing I disagree with is the drone buddy and EMP. I think it's terrible and stupid and should be thrown in the bin like the rest of the rework. Turning her into the aborted chimeric off-spring of Twins, Unknown and Singularity is the completely wrong direction they should be going and for the life of me I don't understand why they seem so dead-set on this projectile/dash focus idea without considering the alternative.
I loved the cake example because it showcases just how many breaking points the design has. One of the (objectively wrong) things people say they hated was how un-intuitive and complicated her power is. This new version is just as complicated, if not even more so with WAY more moving parts than even pre-nerf Merchant had.
Personally, and I said this last time, if we absolutely MUST lose Merchant as a trap killer, then the rework should be focusing on the "hunter" aspect of her design and personality: a kit that focuses on surveillance with drones and hunting down survivors with stealth and Wraith-style invisibility. The only thing that actually has potential is the GDP, but not in the form they currently have it (aka useless 99% of the time).
At least that would still be in keeping with her identity rather than…whatever the hell they are currently thinking with this.
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Skull Merchant got gutted for having a 68% kill rate. Therefor it is only fair that all of those others get equally gutted because they are clearly just as broken and unfun. Right?
RIGHT!?!?!?
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She's just a very weak killer at the moment. She doesn't reach F-tier with Trapper, Myers and Merchant, but she's definitely at the bottom of D-tier. Her chase is terrible, Condemn is too unreliable and survivors have too much control over her power. The biggest problem is her results simply do not match the amount of effort you have to put in with her. Especially if you compare her to killers with borderline brainless powers that achieve equal or better results for far less effort.
While I don't really think she needs another rework (even if I would prefer one), she definitely needs serious buffs in almost every part of her kit to bring her to a less laughable position.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910830#Comment_3910830
Don't get me wrong, I am not in love with the proposed rework (as it has been presented thus far) by any means. What I do appreciate is the willingness to make bold, sweeping changes to a killer of the the sort that they have been unwilling to make before. To admit a failure and take it back to the drawing board rather than re-shuffle the deck chairs on a doomed ship. I didn't think they had it in them, and that SM would simply rot on the island of misfit killers.
But as we sit here today, I think two things are almost certainly true:
- Old Skull Merchant is dead. I think the odds of a reversion of any sort are essentially nil.
- For there to be a future for the character at all, the changes made must be wholly transformative (i.e. an essentially new power altogether).
I just think our energies on this subject would best be spent helping shape the "new" killer to come rather than trying to will a refined iteration of the old SM into existence. Fortunately, it seems we're well away from a finished product here and there is time to influence the shape of the changes, if not the general course of the process.
And I also believe that BHVR likely see this as a low risk (and potentially high reward) move. Even if this rework ends up an abject failure, the killer's fate will functionally be the same as if they had left her as she was; hated and/or abandoned.
Turning her into a projectile/dash focused killer is not the answer.
If they are going to remove her as a trap focused killer and fundamentally change how her power works, then they should focus on two core aspect:
- The ability to place drones around the map to provide location information (they no longer apply debuffs or buffs; are purely information)
- Focus on her concept as a stalking hunter and put emphasis on stealth. Give her the ability to enter Wraith-style invisibility/undetectable under the condition a survivor has been recently scanned and shows up on the radar.
The only decent idea out of the proposal was the Global thing, which could be good with some adjustments. For example, when a Survivor gains three lock-on stacks, Merchant can activate 'None can hide' (name doesn't matter) that consumes the lock-on stacks and reveals all survivors by Killer Instinct for 20 seconds (it needs to be somewhat long because she has no mobility).
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@Emeal said:
Okay so I wanted to get a pulse reading from the Community on this, so I posted Ryan's Post to Reddit to see what they think:
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1jwu9v6/skull_merchant_preview_results_are_in_51_are/Surprising me is how many are fine with a 51% approval rating start and they don't really seem to care that 26% disapprove.
However many do say they found the Survey very hard to properly express why they think a thing works and don't.
There also is a lot of sentiment of basically saying "screw what the Skullmerchant Mains think", which is actually worrying me seems people are much more interested in getting rid of the old SM and getting a new, the details of which don't matter much.I do hope you guys check it out and read what people have to say, cause its interesting.
My position is still, Try to make another Alternative Preview again and see how it is received.
Hell, get all the SM mains in a room and make them compromise on a design they all agree on and lets see that.
Honestly, I just think its too early to commit to the remote control drone idea, we can always make that idea into another Killer in the future if you wish. Hey, if you need people to do it for you, I don't got a job rn.Reddit is an echo chamber of morons that don't know what they are talking about.
That 51% statistic is worthless because it lacks one key context: ANYTHING would have been met with majority (no matter how small of a majority it was) approval because it wasn't Skull Merchant anymore. They aren't interested in making her healthy or viable or even usable. They just want her gone. And the fact BHVR is bending so far backwards for these people is honestly disgusting.
Also, the fact people keep bringing up Sadako as being fine now is laughable. She's in a pretty terrible state at the moment, even ignoring that her Demanifest power is STILL bugged and not working properly.
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How about we stop trying to turn her into a dash OR a projectile killer?
We have plenty of those killers already and it's getting incredibly boring and repetitive. We need variety and killers that do things differently.
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With any luck, this proposal will end up in the same place the Trickster proposal and the Twins rework ended up.
In the dumpster.
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@deckyr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3900745#Comment_3900745
that version is long dead. she's actually been the new version for longer than she was that version. why are we still talking about chess merchant?
Because admitting that pre-gutted Merchant wasn't actually that good and didn't deserve what happened goes against the narrative they have fabricated.
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How about we just not have a terrible rework? That is also an option.
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Garbage. Garbage. Garbage.
Complete trash all across the board.
Turning her into Twins is the absolute WRONG thing to do.
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These changes are terrible and completely ruin everything about her.
Nothing more needs to be said.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882846#Comment_3882846
IDK what survivors want at this point because:
- Anti-loop killers are boring
- Macro gameplay killers are boring
- Hit and run killers are boring.
Here's a question, what killers ARE fun to go against then? Because based on complaints as far as i can see, there is pretty much no killer that is "fun"
I've been saying it for months at this point:
They want to be so insanely OP they can guarantee a 100% escape rate no matter how badly they play.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882558#Comment_3882558
Also for Survivors its harder to face Dracula than SM anytime.
For players who know what they're doing, sure. But that's a very small proportion of the DbD playerbase lol.
Most of the audience is very casual and does not know how all of the killers work. Which isn't too much of a problem because a lot of the roster is relatively simple and intuitive:
- Oh this guy goes invisible (Wraith)
- Oh this guy runs fast with a chainsaw (Hilbilly)
- Oh this guy puts down bear traps (Trapper)
- Oh this guy does a few things I've seen before (Dracula)
Skull Merchant's design was very confusing. Her lore, her power, her visuals. None of it was cohesive. So a lot of players saw her and were just left scratching their heads about what was happening.
So we just aren't allowed to have interesting or complex killers because a bunch of people don't want to try or don't want to bother reading?
I'm sorry, but making 50 variations of Blight or Billy or whatever dash killer people might not despise at the moment is not a good or healthy design decision. At this point you might as well delete the entire roster and give one killer a million skins that change it into the other characters because that seems to be what people want.
No variety, no thinking, no effort.
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Good lord. I'm not even sure what to think at this point.
It's become blatantly obvious that nothing short of making survivor so disgustingly OP that they have a guaranteed 100% escape rate is going to satisfy people.
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@Peppa_Pigsaw said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880086#Comment_3880086
It's a really complicated question to answer because it's not something that innately has a totally black and white answer like "Oh Huntress feels bad to play against because her hitboxes are questionable". It's a VERY grey area and the answer differs for many people.
Before I try my best to answer that I just wanna say that I want to talk about her power in a vacuum. Separated from the lore/design/controversial release/previous versions of her power etc. Retreading old "this sucked" points doesn't matter for the current version of SM as that was in the past. It's not the current version of her.
The current problems I see in her design are the following
~ Trap based killers have always been hated to be played against. I genuinely cannot remember the last time I encountered a player who said they enjoyed playing against killers like Trapper or Hag. It simply doesn't feel good to try to run to an area only to see the bear trap/phantasm/drone already set up there and going "this loop has the power set up here, this could be risky. I don't want to be here". Many players simply don't like this interaction and others always seem to tolerate it to a degree. But it's always a tolerance, never a distinct love. Ofc there are people out there who do love playing against this type of killer, but they're VERY few and far between.
~ The barrage of status effects. One of the biggest criticisms against SM is how she can bombard you with status effects. Hindered, Haste, Undetectable, Deep Wound, Broken, all status effects that she has in her BASEKIT and that's not factoring in her add-ons which can add worse skill checks, blindness, silent skill checks, oblivious, exhausted, hemorrhage, mangled, and aura reading. That's a literal laundry list of status effects and its a dump of information that can very easily overload someone in a chase.~ Unintuitive counterplay. Being able to crouch the scan lines isn't exactly super intuitive. With other killers their main power makes more sense to play around. You dodge Wesker's dash or the tentacle for Nemesis, you don't stand in the massive glowing rectangle against pyramid head and don't step in his goo, you go to the funny highlighted box to remove a RBT for pig etc. Something that any new player could easily intuit during their first match against the killer. "Don't let the big scary matrix man get me" "He has a tentacle, I don't want to be touched by it, it's slimy and yucky" "The big glowing rectangle under my feet is probably not a good sign" "I didn't see the boxes until I got a party hat, I'm going to go over to them, oh hey I remove my trap here". SM simply doesn't have that. Not saying she isn't the ONLY killer with this issue, but it's still an issue regardless. Nobody sees the massive glowing cone and thinks "Yup, I can duck under that." The cone doesn't even communicate that it does work like that because you'd have to be standing under the drone to not get hit by the scan line itself. If it was just a horizontal laser? Maybe it would help some of this issue.
~ She's genuinely been changed so much that people don't even know what she does anymore. This isn't a game issue perse, it's 100% a player issue. But most casual players don't boot up the game and stay totally up to date on all the patch notes and what they mean. Sadako has this same issue. People literally just don't know because there was a period of time it felt like she was being changed every other patch.
There's probably more I'm missing but those are the main ones from the top of my head. It should also be worth noting
Just because a killer is weak does not mean that they are not fun to play against.
Release Legion was honestly really bad. Like to the point where many people on the Steam forums (this was before the official BHVR forums if memory serves) said the ONLY thing he could do was moonwalk people. Being a 110 M1 killer was certainly a design choice. Did that make Legion somehow fun to play against? No. Absolutely not. Because being moonwalked to death wasn't fun. You can't use the argument of her being bad as a means to makeup for some of problems (both perceived and actual) as weak or not they still impact the game she is in and that effects the other players.
Also just wanna say the go next epidemic is out of hand and I hope BHVR nukes it soon. SM or not, it's ridiculous.A very well reasoned and articulated analysis.
That said, I pretty much fundamentally disagree with all of it.
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@AetherBytes said:
It's not that people think she's still powerful or because entitled survivors or whatever. She's just ######### boring to play against. There is little interaction between her power and survivors. Unironically, trapper is more fun to play against because you never know when a window may be trapped, or Doctor because he makes skillchecks harder. Even twins is more interactive to face, with kicking victor and such.
She earned the nickname Dull Merchant for a reason more than 3 genning.
What are these mental gymnastics taking place?
It's wild that anyone would claim Merchant doesn't have interaction and then unironically declare Trapper is more interactive when Merchant's powers works the same, but is far more forgiving. Merchant gives you 3 chances to not be stupid before you are injured, where as Trapper doesn't give you any; you just get injured (or instantly downed if he is running the addon).
Imagine what she would be like if she couldn't deploy her "traps" mid chase. She would be Trapper, but 1000x worse because she has no way to stop or slow people down. She's already worse than Trapper, just not as much of a magnitude.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879003#Comment_3879003
SM didn't use to have slowdown. Her old kit was about map control unlike any other killer before, and as such, she was reworked because survivors found her boring. Freddy also didn't use to have slowdown, he was also reworked because he was both deemed weak and boring.
Also, Hag and Twins are the second and third killer I play the most, so we both know how much fun survivor players think they are. I have been in the game since Legion released, and believe me when I say that the only killers that never got an uproar being called boring are Nemesis, Demogorgon, Billy, and Xenomorph.
Have you noticed how lately almost every killer has a projectile ability? Freddy got a projectile, Vecna, and Dracula also have projectiles. Even a freaking dog became a projectile. BHVR is just too scared to make something different, because whenever they do it, people complain. SM and Knight are prime examples. Fun should not be a metric to decide whether to rework a character.
@danielmaster87 said:
Who cares? Speed differential, schmeed differential. You seriously can't be arguing that a killer slowing survivors down, or being fast/slow themselves, is bad design. That would implicate almost every killer in the game. I'm for standardizing all killers to 115%, so that it's 1 less complication when it comes to balancing. And I'd also like to see a game state where killers don't have to rely on "fast fast fast" perks or killers to compete, which they do now. But what you're suggesting is so broad sweeping that you'd almost have to make a new game for it.
If killers are never able to catch good survivors at loops without them screwing up, which is pretty much the case now, the killer role becomes unviable outside of a select few (Nurse, Blight, Spirit). Notice that all of those killers are strong because they can play the catch-up game with survivors, getting to them before they can get to somewhere safe/the next safe place. At the end of the day, killers who go a different direction than them are more interesting, because there's more room for counterplay, for both sides preferably, not just survivors.
You may think them dull, but I think killers being strong enough to get you, but you being knowledgeable enough to waste as much time as possible, is what makes this game great, regardless of if slowdown is involved in the gameplay loop. Assuming there is something inherently wrong with 1 killer's gameplay loop, don't y'all want to go against multiple different strong killers, instead of just 1? Why do we always have to shout down the lastest decent killer? It's more rewarding to have to keep your counterplay practiced and updated across multiple killers, not just a handful.
Preach.
I'm so sick of chase being the only thing allowed to exist. We need more trap killers. We need more macro-focused and area denial killers (Skull Merchant shouldn't have been changed into a chase killer). We don't need 30+ variations of Blight, Billy, or whatever chase killer survivors are not currently raging about.
It's wild because chase killers are the most anti-interaction killers in the game because they promote non-interaction (sorry, but occasionally dodging a dash is not interaction), yet nobody seems to want to admit that and instead declare the most interactive killers in the game "boring," "unfun," and "uninteractive." I feel like I'm being gaslit every time someone tries to argue that Blight is interactive when he is literally all about not interacting with him.
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It is genuinely depressing how good SM's skin is, yet they released it when she is in such a terrible state she isn't worth playing.
Way to twist the knife, BHVR.
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Between the increasingly buggy patches, the questionable decisions made by the devs, and survivors constantly going next at the slightest thing they don't like (I saw my 3 survivors partners all DC or go AFK the moment Legion's music was heard, then it happened again against Blight), I've barely played at all in the past couple of months.
I don't know what the solution is at this point, but…it sucks.
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@Massquwatt said:
I don't miss old Sadako, her current iteration is fine and I still enjoy playing her. But Chucky on the other hand? Good lord he sucks these days, even if he isn't technically weak he just feels awful to play generally now. Outside of running meme addons that let you slice n' dice across the map during endgame he's honestly got nothing going for him anymore these days. His power sucks, his perks are mostly bad and his addons are all boring stat adjustments. No variety whatsoever.
It's wild that anyone can unironically say Chucky is bad and Sadako is fine. What a bizarre world we seem to be in.
As bad as Chucky might be right now, Sadako is still WAAAAAAAY worse than he is.
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@ThatRyanB said:
It's me, a dev! Giving this a look and sharing some of your feedback with the team.
You've got some great suggestions here - it's always great to see folks sharing their thoughts on the wider menu experience!
I want a written apology by the devs for how badly they handled the Skull Merchant situation and an outline of what they are planning to do to fix their screw up.
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I want him to get a skin that turns him into Alex Wesker (his sister) and gives her her own voice lines similar to Tiffany with Chucky.
Also he should get his RE4 outfit.
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Freddy's changes moving him out of F-tier (where he will end up we don't know yet)
Merchant is getting a rework (though when that actually will happen is anyone's guess because BHVR can't be trusted)
We know Trapper isn't going to change
Myers is the only the one left in that tier that needs more work done. I don't really know what they could do with him though.
Other than that, Legion and Plague could stand to be looked at because they both have similar styles that survivors hate (rationally or not). Onryo is also in a pretty terrible state and could use another rework.
Chucky I don't think needs a rework. He just needs some of his nerfs reverted and some other aspects brought in line.
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We have one already. Forsaken Boneyard is a graveyard.
That being said, we could use another one that is actually dark instead of blindingly bright.
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Onryo sucks in 90% of circumstances. Terrible chase with an unreliable and inconsistent power that isn't in her control. Even the reduced map sizes have done nothing for her, which tells you how bad she actually is.
She isn't F-tier, but is pretty darn close. Bottom of D-tier at best.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3869056#Comment_3869056
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3869024#Comment_3869024
I think you're both correct, but I believe this is an inherent problem of a Asym game, that I cant really see a way for it not to exist. It is a team of survivors vs a killer, and let's REALLY think about that for a second...
In any team game, you are by definition dependent upon your teammates; that's what makes it a team game. If you are on the worse team, then you should lose, and this is very common (in fact its the status quo) for every team game in existence... the team.that plays the worst, tends to lose...
Now you can have individual players who may be better or worse, but generally speaking the team with the best teamwork should win... so lets explore some team games...
A game like Counter Strike is high on individual skill, where a single great player can clutch rounds for their team and beat 5 players single handed... this means that it's possible, and not even uncommon to see 5 players who have good teamwork lose many rounds to a team with 4 poor players and 1 amazing player... however for the most part strong teamwork can and should keep up.
A game like Team Fortress 2 on the other hand, while still having a lot of individual skill, ultimately it's greater teamwork that wins most of the time. You might be a truly unbelievable Soldier, and a decent Pyro/Scout shutting you down and protecting their Medics and Snipers still have a good shot of beating you.
So what point am I making? Well in an asym like DBD, we aren't pitting teamwork vs. teamwork, we are pitting teamwork vs. a single player. That means the "teamwork" of the killer is always perfect, whereas as a survivor your ability to win is dependent upon the skill of your team. If you as a survivor are not very dependent on your teammates, it means that you are appropriately powerful to take the killer on 1vs1.
Since this game is 4vs1, then this must lead to a scenario where Survivors are overpowered, because if every survivor can effectively 1vs1 the killer consistently and not be in a hopeless game because 1 survivor threw the game hard, the killer is outnumbered and should most of the time lose... as such the balance has to be skewed so that the killer is stronger in the 1vs1, and by proxy it therefore must, by design, be extremely punishing for survivors if they make a mistake.
This isn't an example of favouritism towards killers, this is an inherent quality of an asym... Ultimately Survivors are pitting their ability to work as a team vs. the killers ability to catch them individually quickly and put survivors in difficult to coordinate positions... I don't really see a way you can make it so that survivors aren't dependent on each other, and aren't punished very hard for mistakes, without making it so that the game is heavily survivor sided.
This is an incredible analysis of the situation that everyone needs to read.
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@DancewithmeKate said:
Solo survivor is not miserable because of give ups. It's miserable because game is favoring killers too much.
Survivors are giving up exactly for this reason. When this game was favoring survivors, killers was dc'ing a lot as well.
That seems to be what people want though; to nerf every killer and perk into the ground and kill switching 90% of the killer roster they think is "unfun" so survivors are insanely strong again.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868050#Comment_3868050
I probably expressed myself poorly. I don’t want her to be a chase killer like wesker, blight…., but I want her current chase ability like the flicker and teleport to be as good and not worse than the one she had in her first version. Currently her teleport is much worse than the one of her first version, because her current design encourages survivors to shut down her whole power at all times, which isn’t fun or helpful for condemned or her teleport. The best way to make her good again would be to use her first version as foundation and keeping the number buffs and Quality of live changes from the reworks. The focus shouldn’t be on only improving condemned since this lead to her needing many compensation nerfs, that are very unfun to deal with. If you are interested, I can send you the link of my rework idea from a while ago?
If it's the post you made back in December, I remember that one. I didn't agree with certain aspects, but it was good overall.
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@buggybug said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868050#Comment_3868050
Nah its facts on some maps being so small tvs are real close for her to tv spam, dead saloon being a huge example and as I said rancid harbor tvs are real close to each other.
She has base kit remote that makes you waste time carrying your tape so it makes up for turning off tvs since you gotta go from north to south on any map whoch makes indoor maps like hawkins hell and also watch one pump willie best onryu main that still get kill win streaks on her. S
It's not facts at all and you saying it is isn't going to change that. I just got done playing both of the maps and this was 100% untrue.
Also, bringing up a random CC is completely irrelevant. The best Trapper player can go on kill streaks also. Same with the best Freddy player or Myers player. That does not mean those killers are good.
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@Langweilig said:
Her current version is flawed and you can’t really fix her, because it would remove counterplay. That’s why I suggested a more chase focused version, that worked similar to her first version. Then you would have the best of condemned and for chasing. Sadly they will probably not touch her for a very long time and her problems will remain.
I disagree.
We don't need more chase killers. We need more macro-focused killers. The problem is she is terrible at both chase AND macro-level play.
@buggybug said:
We are trying to conserve energy to save on the entities electric bill or require the wasted energy in these tvs for our precious gates ya know?
On a serious note map like the trash wind maps being so small now she actually can quickly gain condoms fast because 2 tvs are so close in that map, I believe the one with hanging dead boars is call rancid arbor?
But yeah that was atrocious to face when I had match vs her on that map, pretty long 25 min game since trying to shut off a tv while the other turn off tvs was coming up back fast. Idk if its an add on that speeds up tv cool down or what.
This is either a lie or a gross misunderstanding of how the power works.
Even with the reduced map sizes, there is not a single instance of TV's able to cover multiple generators or multiple TV's being in range of a single generator without the use of the range increase add-on. And even then, it's mostly only indoor maps with two floors that can attain this with any form of consistency (Midwich, Gideon, RPD, etc.)
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3867890#Comment_3867890
Since this is the part everyone either forgets or conveniently leaves out:
The current state of SM was never intended to be permanent. They said several times, including before any recent changes at all, that they're reworking her. Which is the correct, long term solution.
Unfortunately that amount of effort isn't something they can just push forward in a week and will take Dev and creative team time.
"Never intended to be permanent"
So are people just supposed to wait…5 years like Freddy?
Do you ACTUALLY believe them when they say they will get to it this year? What makes you even believe them? What have they done to make you so blindly loyal to their word? And even if they do, who is to say it doesn't end up in the dumpster like Twins rework?
No. What they did was COMPLETELY unreasonable. If the devs ACTUALLY thought she was that big of a problem, they wouldn't have waited a YEAR to make ANY sort of changes. Completely gutting her in one sweeping move was TERRIBLE and bad game design decision making.
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Survivors have all but admitted they don't want variety. They want 30+ variations of Blight, Billy, or whatever dash-focused killer is currently considered "fun." This should have been obvious when every single killer that does anything else had been nerfed into the ground repeatedly.
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"It's not about survivors or killers complaining"
looks over at Skull Merchant
The lie detector test determined that was a lie.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866471#Comment_3866471
Yes, you're right, my friend.
I believe they will change it so that you can still fake the teleport, because this change just feels odd. But all of this effort to make a power, that was never healthy or good for the game, work.
When Billy and Sadako got their changes, there was a concern with the players who loved their previous versions, and an effort was made to bring back what people loved about those killers. What makes Freddy different? His original version could have been easily fixed. Why insist on the post-rework stuff?
I don't understand.
I don't think I would put Sadako there. She's in a terrible state and the only thing keeping her out of F-tier next to Trapper, Myers, Freddy and Merchant is that her teleport is instant. Everything else about her is awful.
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866392#Comment_3866392
We ignoring Billy’s rework? Knight? Singularity?
all got reworked for the betterThere are far more examples of terrible reworks than good ones. That's the point I'm making.
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@Breadkiller said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866379#Comment_3866379
This rework is boring. I feel for you for patiently waiting for this update only to be led with disappointment.
They say this isn't a rework either. Wth is it then?
Should anyone be surprised? BHVR's track record with reworks has been….
less than impressive, to put it mildly.
Honestly, after 5 years, I expected a lot more.
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@ftwleon said:
I believe they will no longer introduce new chase music for old Killers, when 6.5.0 was released, the patch notes say that The Nurse is the last Killer to officially receive chase music.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/I23UIGTMI96A/screenshot-20250106-010138-chrome.jpg
I guess that's the reason why we haven't received any new chase music since January 2023.
That says "LATEST" killer. Not last. Meaning most recent (at the time of that patch).
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It's becomes obvious that survivors don't want any sort of variety. They want repetitive games against killers that all play exactly the same so they don't have to develop any sort of alternative strategies or outside-the-box thinking other than "loop the killer during chase." Any time a killer has any sort of mechanic that requires them to do anything other than looping or gens, they complain it is "unfun" or "boring" or "tedious" or some variation of that until it is nerfed into oblivion and the killer is basically unusable in any way other than a noob stomper.
Sorry, but having 30-something variations of Blight or Billy or whatever dash-focused killer you think is fair is NOT a good or healthy thing for the game.
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Honestly, Pig needs a complete and total overhaul. New model, new animations, VA by Shawnee Smith, new TR music, the whole nine yards. One of the main aspects of her character in the Saw franchise was that she wasn't strong enough to pick up and move around grown adults, so why is she now suddenly able to haul them around like nothing?
I know "The Entity" can be used as a cop out excuse for pretty much everything that doesn't make sense, but I feel like they didn't try very hard with her and could really stand to give her a glow up.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861157#Comment_3861157
Thank you for coming to my defense here, this is what I was getting at - and yes, they were being dismissive and missing the point. They have also alongside others been following me across the forums to harass me about this and other points on other discussions, refusing repeatedly to engage in discussion to the point I've had to block them to get any discussion even remotely done without getting so annoyed with this community not caring about others in the game, I just leave in frustration or even worse end up saying something regrettable and too mean. For some reason, that sort of following to harass behavior is considered ok here, I guess.
I'm not angry about the SM nerfs. She needed it. I think she was fine after the first nerf. The second nerf however made her Freddy 2.0, all so nobody would ever have to see her again. How is that fair to her players? How is that fair to anyone who wants the game to have variety? It comes across as victim-blaming, all because someone DARED to enjoy a Killer people don't like. How on EARTH is that okay?
I'm saddened that the message people took from the nerfs is, "we can convince the Devs to nerf Killers we find annoying based on whining enough to the point that Killer is so useless, nobody plays them and we never have to see them again - because the Devs agree with doing that." I'm angry nobody sees the issue with "well the Killer's annoying so the solution is to say eff those players, nerf the Killer and make them play someone else we PREFER to play against". I'm frustrated people are looking at Killers like my Main, who literally next to NOBODY complained about even two years ago as being unfair, and calling them unfair because of the one or two things they can do that ARE skillful and DO have counterplay and are only so skillful because the player playing them is fighting against unfun or glitchy mechanics and has learned how to deal with them. We used to call those techs 2 years ago, not "abusing an unfair mechanic". Why is my skill with a character, arguably a weak one at that, a problem now when it literally never was before?
And that's what makes me upset, and what spurred this post. And all I can ask is, who's next? Is Ghostface next? Will they nerf my Main?
I feel like they will, because people are mad, and then what will I have? I got into this game because I could be Ghostface. I got into this game because I find Ghostface fun and at the time, people generally LIKED him and still do. I got into this game because I could indulge in a fun fantasy of being a slasher villain or running from slasher villains. If he were nerfed to nothing, I genuinely would quit because there'd be absolutely no reason for me to play anymore.
Why, why do I deserve to have the game I love taken from me because of something the Devs accidentally broke being too frustrating for others to learn to counterplay against? It's not my fault his Reveal and Lean are broken. It's not my fault some people quit because of that. It's not my fault.
All I want to do is play the game. And I think most Skurchent players and Mains felt the same way.
Why does a Killer deserve to be destroyed - not nerfed, DESTROYED - because a mob of Survivors, four times as many as there are Killers, think she's unfun instead of making her a priority to be MADE fun?
"How is that fair to anyone who wants the game to have variety?"
It's not, because survivors don't want variety. They want every killer to basically be exactly the same with barely any variation. They don't want to have to learn different strategies or think outside the very narrow box of "loop killer, do gens."
Have you not noticed how every killer (or strategy) that does something different, has some sort of game play outside of chase, or makes the survivor do anything that isn't working on gens, have been consistently getting nerfed into oblivion or gets constantly complained about as "unfun" until it is rendered impotent?
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The irony of that statement is actually hilarious.
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Yea that part was dumb.
I would really like them to provide us with the results of some of these questions: which maps to people feel are the most imbalanced, which top 3 killers people say need reworks, etc.
I would also be really interested to see the results of the slugging questions at the end.