ObsidianButterfly
ObsidianButterfly
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- ObsidianButterfly
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I was wondering who the next boogyman was going to be after Merchant was unfairly made into the worst killer in the game.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856083#Comment_3856083
"You are wrong because I said so, she was simply not doing that despite evidence to the contrary."
Don't see much point in continuing this then.
"Don't see much point in continuing this then because I don't have a counter-argument since the point I tried to make has been debunked many times yet I refuse to admit it."
Hey, look. I can do that too.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856073#Comment_3856073
"you obviously"
You know what they say about assuming.
Actually I was referring to her ability to hold gens, even after her nerfs. Also her ability to just prolong games and make them miserable, even if she ultimately lost.
I don't mind being asked to clarify my points.
You are still wrong. After her first rework and the generator limit changes, she was no better at holding gens than any other killer. And again, she was worse at it than others due to lack of movement ability.
And honestly, if you got 3-genned post rework/regress limit, that was entirely the survivor's fault for not spreading gens. Just like it is for any other killer.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856059#Comment_3856059
Did you mean to respond to me? I never mentioned anything about slugging, camping or tunneling.
Yes I did, because you were insinuating those tactics when you accuse her players of "abusing and exploiting her kit." How would the players do that if not using it do the things survivors typically hate? You obviously didn't say the words specifically so you could hand wave away the argument, like you just did, but everyone knows that is what you are saying. Because it is ALWAYS what everyone argues.
If I'm wrong, then be specific about what abuses they were using and how they were using it.
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He's already the equivalent of about 4-5 killers crammed into one package with an overloaded kit. I think he is pretty close to fine now. Not being able to chain everything he has back-to-back and requiring a bit more planning is more than acceptable.
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He's been significantly nerfed and he still suffers from wonky hitboxes in that he often gets caught on minor environmental objects during his dash that Blight and Billy can ignore, for some reason. He does need an add-on pass though as most of his add-ons are useless. Other than that, he is in a fair state.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856047#Comment_3856047
She was playable, but unpleasant. However, they chose to killswitch her in order to fix all of her bugs in one fell swoop, which was largely successful.
SM got changed to be less horrid to play against. Like I said originally, that's half on BHVR and half on SM players. Yes, she never should have launched in the state she did, even after PTB feedback. However, even after her first few changes, people still continued to abuse and exploit her kit to make other people as miserable as possible.
She's (hopefully) going to get what she actually needs. A complete ground-up re-design.
This is such a trash argument. She never slugged, camped or tunneled any better than any other killer. In fact, she's actually worse at it than a lot of others because she has no movement ability. Trying to use stuff like that as justification is laughable as it can be used on EVERYONE. Should I be going around demanding Blight and Billy be nerfed into the ground because I've never met one that didn't slug and/or tunnel people? No, because that is stupid.
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@GeneralV said:
That rarely ever happens, and it shouldn't happen.
Thrill is overtuned, therefore it needs a nerf. No need for compensation buffs this time.
So we just go back to making hexes unusable garbage, then?
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851238#Comment_3851238
Your post wasn't directed at me, but it was on a public forum so I thought I may as well respond. The post I responded to said:
we're complaining about HEX builds lol
This implied you found the idea of complaining about hex builds laughable. I explained the exact change that makes [treating complaints about hex builds as laughable] seem out of touch with the current state of the game, and gave advice as to how you could avoid that faux-pas foe similar situations. Hope that helps 👍
So we are just supposed to go back to hexes being garbage again? They have been constantly memed on by both killers AND survivors for so long because of how much of a joke they are and how often they get cleansed before the killer can even cross the map. The amount of times I've spawned in as survivor to see a burning totem right in front of me is astronomically high. Nobody used pre-buff Thrill because it was bad even on full hex builds. We even have people saying 12% is too much.
I would be perfectly fine with nerfing it, but something needs to be done to make hexes not a completely laughable joke.
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I wonder if maybe those killers will just be locked out of being able to play on that map. If the powers are being fundamentally changed in the future so they don't work at all the same, they may not see a reason to go through the effort of programming all of that for them in their current forms?
Don't know. Just spitballing a possibility.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834853#Comment_3834853
it's easier to deflect genuine questions as trolling than actually answer them if they challenge your authority.
sadako's kit allows insane map presence and condemn playstyle is incredibly difficult for survivors to deal with due to how much it punished macro mistakes.
survivors having counterplay doesnt really shut it down entirely, they still cant keep TVs down all the time, they still have to rotate around the map and expose themselves to a risk of being intercepted, especially if you play hit&run.
i wouldnt say she is as strong as artist, but she's definitely on the same level as wesker or plague, even stronger than the latter.
Everything about this is wrong.
She is constantly placed at the bottom of D-tier for a reason. The only thing keeping her out of F-tier alongside Trapper, Myers, Freddy and Merchant is her ability to teleport.
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Merchant has been nerfed so heavily that trying to hold a 3-gen is basically the only thing she can do anymore. And she does it so badly compared to about 99% of the rest of the roster. Unless the survivors are actually brain dead, she is a free win for them at this point.
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@IronKnight55 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3826256#Comment_3826256
SM was nerfed so heavily because survivors disliked her so much that they wouldn't even play against her. This isn't the case for the other killers on the list, so she really shouldn't be compared to them. I anticipate there will be some nerfs, but I don't think it'll be anything crazy.
The hate was entirely unjustified. There were people coming to the forums and flat out saying they didn't care what BHVR did to her, they would continue to hate and DC against her.
And that is STILL happening. She is the worst killer in the game right now and people still refuse to play against her even though it is basically a free win if the survivors have more than two collective brain cells. If that isn't evidence of unjustified nerfs, I don't know what is.
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Dracula is overtuned, but it's mostly because his kit is insanely overloaded. They gave one killer the powers of 5 different killers. Individually those powers are weaker than their associated killers, but when all are loaded onto a single killer they become overwhelming.
Bat: Spirit + Dredge
Wolf: Wesker + Oni
Man: Literally just Pyramid Head
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Depends on what the Deep Wound change is. If they change it significantly, then Legion will likely be updated at the same time to reflect those changes. These roadmaps aren't set in stone, as we have seen already. They can always add more changes or take them away.
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It is what it is.
Hopefully after we get it people will shut up about it though.
Me personally, I don't care. Was never able to get into it. I didn't buy DND or Castlevania (though for different reasons), so this won't be any different.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3825259#Comment_3825259
This time I have hope, my friend!
After Sadako and Hillbilly I trust BHVR knows what should be done to Freddy.
Hillbilly, maybe.
Sadako is in a pretty bad spot right now though. Not Freddy, Trapper, Myers or Merchant bad, but pretty close.
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Hopefully Legion is going to get some changes (though that may not be until December to go along with the Deep Wound change). And hopefully Onryo gets some attention because she's in a pretty weak spot at the moment (at least fix her bugs for crying out loud).
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Hopefully Legion will get some attention due to the Deep Wound change coming in November and praying Onryo AT LEAST gets her obnoxious bugs fixed.
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"Down the line"
Meaning it could be YEARS. They said a year in other posts, but…
do you ACTUALLY believe/have faith in them? Because I sure don't. They have failed pretty much every rework they have tried in the past few years.
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BHVR's track record for reworks the last few years has been terrible. They ripped out her spine, left her as the, objectively, worst killer in the game, and there isn't even any guarantee her rework will come any time soon (they said next year, but they cannot be trusted). And even IF it shows up, who's to say it won't end up the same as Twins: in the garbage bin?
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@RFSa09 said:
I just hope they don't turn her Into another hillbilly with extra steps like half of the characters in the game (yes, i'm talking about all the run forwards in high speed to injury survivor type killers)
This seems to be what survivors want. They want every killer to be exactly the same with basically no variation; some sort of binary dash attack they can dodge and then claim that as skill. Any killer that is different, or has some sort of innate slowdown so they can't just loop or work on gens, gets labeled as "boring" or "unfun" or some other variation of that and then gets cried about until BHVR nerfs them into the garbage bin.
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Apparently survivors won't be happy until every killer is exactly the same with basically no variation because god forbid they have to utilize different strategies or interact with different things.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818845#Comment_3818845
If the devs goal is 60% kill rate, then those killers are objectively overperforming. So if the devs are actually wanting to maintain balance they would find a way to reduce that performance, yes.
I'm not sure why you think this is some kind of slam dunk argument when you provided the official stats that support this conclusion.
Thinking that Freddy needs nerfs is…certainly one of the ideas of all time, I'll give you that.
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The build isn't as consistent as he makes it out to be. He also played against survivors who were kind of bad and kept giving a lot of free hits he shouldn't have gotten.
Content creator exaggerates how good a build is. In similar news: water is wet.
That said, this still shouldn't be a thing. I don't personally find this build fun at all, but it isn't healthy for the game.
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This may be a hot take, but this is why I have the opinion that all of these licensed killers are a bad idea. I love having them in the game, but it's starting to become very clear they are interfering with the ability to develop and balance the game. For all we know, Freddy and Myers have been in such a bad state for so long because their license holders aren't letting BHVR make the changes they feel they need to/want to.
And let's not even talk about the doomsday scenario where all the holders get too greedy, BHVR can't or won't continue paying them, and we lose a bunch of killers suddenly.
This is why I think BHVR needs to stop with the licenses and focus on their own original content so they don't run into these kinds of problems.
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@Ohyakno said:
Her loop gameplay is non-existent. She doesn't do anything. Worst killer in the game.
Good news though! They're working on redoing her kit.
Considering how terrible BHVR has been with reworks the last few years, I'm not sure that is something to be thrilled about.
In full honesty, as much as I love Merchant, I'm starting to think the drones need to be ditched entirely, or at least not have them not be the main focus of her power. She has obvious Predator inspiration, so they should probably lean into that; make her power more focused on the hunt: stealth/invisibility, tracking, and ambushing.
My biggest concern is they are going to turn the drones into some sort of camera and she will just end up being a worse version of Singularity.
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Long story short, almost every killer needs a MASSIVE add-on rework. There are so many terrible add-ons that it feels like a lot of them could be added to base-kit as "buffs" and it would either start to fix a lot of problems some killers have, or not make much difference because the add-ons were so bad to begin with.
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I played a few games with her and I can say with 100% confidence she is, objectively, the worst killer in the game now. Worse than Trapper. Worse than Myers. Worse than Freddy.
She is terrible. Everything about her is bad. Her power is actively detrimental to use now and even if you CAN get a scan (which is miserable to do with only one scan line), the haste bonus you get from it isn't good enough to make up the ground you lost during the slowdown you had using your power. You have to do this multiple times just to get the Hindered and all the while you aren't gaining Bloodlust.
She's garbage and is basically now a free win for survivors that can hold W.
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@Peanits said:
It takes additional work to add each Killer to 2v8 in order to ensure that their powers work correctly. The first time around, we focused on the 5 Killers that are available to everyone for free so everyone could experience the mode fully. These next few Killers are ones which take less time to implement, allowing us to expand the available roster more quickly to address the concerns about Killer variety from the first run.
More complex Killers with effects like The Doctor's Madness or The Plague's Sickness, or Killers with special objects or mechanics like The Pig's Reverse Bear Traps and Jigsaw Boxes, would take more time to implement as they weren't created with 2v8 in mind, needing special considerations before they can be added. For instance, many Killer effects appear on the Survivors' portraits; this is fine when they're alone, but doesn't work when two different Killer effects are applied on top of one another. Or from a gameplay perspective, something like The Doctor's Madness might prevent a Survivor from removing their Reverse Bear Trap, which may not be ideal.
Licensed Killers also need to be discussed with their respective licensors as while they may be fine with their character appearing a 1v4 game, they may not want their character appearing alongside other Killers (or other licensed Killers). They aren't out of the question, but it's something that would need to be discussed first.
In short, we're working to expand the Killer roster in 2v8 as quickly as possible first, but we don't want to cut corners. These Killers fit into the mode much more easily and allow us expand the options faster. We plan to continue adding new Killers with each iteration.
This might be a hot take, but if the licenses are so restrictive that they are interfering with your ability to develop the game by adding in additional skins, modes or power changes, then I think maybe something is fundamentally broken and needs to change.
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No.
Giving Merchant an objectively worse version of Singularity's power not only is insulting to Singularity and its players, but would be just plain lazy on the devs part.
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@GeneralSkien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3811978#Comment_3811978
okay I’ve been defending skull merchant a lot but these changes seem good???
The 4.4 sounds bad on theory but the point is to GET the haste then put down the radar, with this change you shouldn’t hold the radar 24/7
The hindered also isn’t complete useless, and they made rotation faster as well
it’s an overall nerf but it is honestly a Mid to high B tier to C tier, these changes are fineWhen you compare them to the PTB, sure, they look good.
She will still be garbage tier though. The amount of effort it will take to getting 5% haste for 5 seconds (which the survivor will easily outrun to the next loop), all the while being slowed during the drone placement and rotations, and having bloodlust being canceled each time, is terrible.
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So instead of being worse than Freddy, she will be just as bad as Freddy. That's…certainly one of the choices of all time.
At least he'll have a friend now, I guess.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810931#Comment_3810931
If there wasn't enough killers then survivor queue times would be long and the 400% incentive would be on killer. You have it backwards
It wasn't that there weren't enough PLAYERS
It was that there weren't enough KILLERS
The inability to have duplicate killers with only 5 available killers made for insufferably long queue times.
@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810814#Comment_3810814
Then play normal mode
Normal games had EVEN LONGER queue times than 2v8 did. 45+ minutes at times and that is WITH cross-play enabled.
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@Skaphegor said:
She is in a really good spot now.
The old versions of her were just oppressive and annoying. She was only played to farm free kills. Now, she has to work for it like other killers do.
She is fine imo.
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@JustAShadow said:
Since they nerfed his infection they really need to reduce his base power cooldown. Having 12 seconds cooldown for his 2 dashes is kinda insane. Should probably be somewhere between 4 to 5 seconds for a dash to recharge. Also after grinding Dracula and getting the hang of the wolf form, playing Wesker just feels off(and I have played hundreds of hours as this killer), the environmental collision is really unpleasant and I think it would not hurt to give Wesker the same hitbox as wolf has or just make it not as sensitive to every single pixel on a map.
Wesker getting caught on seemingly every small environmental abnormality is my biggest issue with him.
You'll have to elaborate on this, because I don't see it. From what I can tell, he has way less going on in his kit than a lot of other killers.
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Every time they release a killer that doesn't need to focus so much on chase, people blow a gasket and scream foul until they are reworked and nerfed into the ground.
Sadako and Skull Merchant are the most infamous. Survivors just seem to want every killer to play exactly the same.
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I feel like 75% of the problems with Hex perks could be solved if they weren't active right away and killers could choose which Dull totem becomes the Hex totem during the match. All Dull totems are highlighted to the killer until they active the Hex on one. Also allows some additional strategy as to when to use it.
It's not a perfect solution, but it would help deal with the problem of hexes spawning in right next to survivors or in really bad spots, effectively making the Killer run with only 3 perks.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3807436#Comment_3807436
To be fair, SBMM would never remain the way it was because the first tests had a lot of negative feedback. I still think the entire system should be scrapped.
What would your suggestion be for a replacement?
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Seems like a massive waste of money that could have been better spent going to overhauling and reworking a lot of the older stuff/broken stuff in the game currently.
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Seems like a lot of money that could have been better spent overhauling and reworking the things in DbD that need to be updated.
Unless that is what they bought Red Hook for; to use as a support studio to help with DbD.
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Even though I didn't really like Lights Out, it was different enough from the main game to be interesting. Chaos Shuffle just isn't different enough. There are several tome challenges that force random perks on you already, so it isn't like there is anything unique or different.
More power to those that like it, but I just don't personally find it enjoyable enough.
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@Rick1998 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800843#Comment_3800843
is there even anything left to nerf on her ?
She's already a D-tier killer, but Merchant was C-tier and they still found a way to ruin her.
At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to find a way to ruin Sadako as well.
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Wasn't this tried at least once before and it was basically universally hated?
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BHVR basically validated this behavior with what they are doing to Skull Merchant. Don't like a killer? Just DC and throw enough games and they will nerf them into the ground.
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@LadyOwO said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800627#Comment_3800627
Don't forget how DC's can inflate those numbers so I wouldn't use that for a reference if I were you.
Those numbers were excluding DC's, but did include AFK/non-participation and hookicide.
@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800627#Comment_3800627
This is old though. His stats have changed drastically over the last 8 months.
Do you have a more recent official list? No, you cannot use nightlight.gg as your source because it is unofficial and therefor does not account for a great many matches played.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3798858#Comment_3798858
Her kill rate was 11.5% above average as of February. These changes are not going to swing those by like 15%, which is what she'd need to be terrible. She still gets free haste and her drones can still force survivors to leave loops or take hits. She still has decent tracking, either from the drones themselves or from seeing where drones get disabled. She can still three gen pretty effectively. She will be plenty playable.
Yes, kill rates aren't the end all be all, but she was an outlier in how well she was performing before. She needed big nerfs to rejoin the pack.
They completely removed Haste from her kit and they cut the Hinder in half. In addition, they made it twice as hard to even get scans because of the removal of one of the scan lines. She loses bloodlust when using her Drone or her Radar.
With these changes, she has no chase ability anymore and she hasn't been able to 3-gen in any effective way more than any other killer for over a year.
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@GroßusSchmiedus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3798829#Comment_3798829
I hate that i agree with this. Just give everyone all who own her a full refund in the meantime and deactivate her if we give her a complete overhaul like Revenant got in Apex, especially considering it will probably take years.
Don't believe BHVR when they say 2025, i consider them unreliable and dishonest and i need to only point towards Freddy, Trickster and Twins to prove it.
It's really not that simple. In order to remove her from the game with no timeline to her return, multiple other things would have to happen:
- Tools of Torment would need to be removed as DLC due to false advertising risks (she's front and center on the material).
- Renato and Thalita (along with their perks) would either need to be made free for everyone or also be removed. And most likely they would be removed and returned later along with Merchant and the Tools DLC (because business reasons).
So you aren't just refunding Merchant, they would need to refund the survivors as well. I wasn't around when the Stranger Things content was removed, but I imagine it would be something similar to that.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3798111#Comment_3798111
She will still be playable after the nerfs. She'll just be lower tier, which is fine and appropriate.
She's already C-tier. These changes make her F-tier.