ObsidianButterfly
ObsidianButterfly
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@Arcturus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4105385#Comment_4105385
Her design is precisely garbage because she is so bad most of the time and so powerful on certain maps. Like, I never said that Sadako needs a nerf or anything like that, I just said her design is terrible, which makes sense considering they had to change her like 3 times from how she originally was. If anything she needs a rework to be more consistently powerful.
I'm not sure how saying "skill issue" dismisses anything I said. It's apparently a "skill issue" that a killer can spam a power over and over and consistently progress you to your death so that you're forced to not do objectives all game or let yourself get killed early.
This is a forum for discussions, complaints, etc. I'm not "making it everyone else's problem," I'm literally using the forum for its intended purpose, stop being butthurt about it just because the killer I'm talking about is your profile picture. A little bias much? I can do the same thing right back and it would mean nothing: "the killer I like is being criticized by someone I don't know online in a place where people criticize the game the killer is in, and I don't like that so I'm going to make it his problem." That isn't discussing, that's just insulting and being rude.
I will take every chance I get to complain up and down about how bad Sadako is. She isn't F-tier Skull Merchant levels of bad, but is pretty close. So, no, it doesn't really work in reverse. You may have good intentions in wanting her to be improved and more consistent (most people would probably agree with that), but your post just comes off as whining that you got hit with the 1% and lost to an overall bad killer on the 1-2 maps she isn't terrible on.
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Allow me to translate for the lay-people.
"Sadako is complete garbage 99% of the time because her power is laughably worthless and she has no chase ability, but the 1-2 maps where her power actually functions and she is an actual threat exposes my skill issue, so I'm going to complain about it and make it everyone else's problem."
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Merchant should be moved down into F tier.
Sadako and Ghostface should be moved down to D tier ahead of Trapper; GF>Sadako>Trapper
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I've been shouting for years at this point that I'm sick of dash and projectile killers and want more unique ones. More stealth/invisibility killers, more trap killers, more macro killers. Dash and projectile killers are the most mind-numbingly boring killers to both play and play against.
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We were explicitly told she would get her rework the following year after her nerfs, so they felt it was okay to gut her to nothing and a lot of people begrudgingly accepted that. I never did and have been screaming from the rooftops about it since the start.
The year came and went with nothing but 2 failed previews, followed by an assortment of laughably insulting "buffs," and no rework in sight. So either:
a) They lied, or
b) They are incompetent
Both of which are, quite honestly, unacceptable at this point. They need to give her a complete and total reversion to how she was previously until they ACTUALLY have a rework to present.
And for the love of god DO NOT LISTEN TO PIXEL BUSH!! His love of Merchant is commendable; his ideas to rework her are terrible.
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@UberJason said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4081345#Comment_4081345
I understand where you're coming from yet it's like this. If Jason were to have a multitude of powers, where does it cross the line for being borderline strong or weak? If he had a projectile, bear traps, rage mechanic, and teleport then all his powers would have to be evenly distributed. You also have to look at simplicity and complexity sake. Who is the audience they go for?
I'm not sure how anyone could balance something like this. It would be another Xenomorph situation all over again and I'd rather not have games where survivors disconnect or give up like they do against the Ghoul.
I'm satisfied he can teleport and break dropped pallets. And I could always dedicate a build by using endurance, spirit fury and whatever breaks pallets faster.
If Dracula and Vecna can exist just fine with multiple powers, there is no reason Jason couldn't follow a similar theme.
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I'll reserve judgement until I see it myself.
However, if he just ends up being ANOTHER boring, projectile slop killer that we NO NOT NEED, I probably won't forgive BHVR for being so creatively bankrupt on a killer they could have done so much more with.
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I think he is mostly fine now. Pretty middle-of-the-road, which is a good place to be. I do kind of wish they didn't just turn him into another projectile killer though. They could have come up with something more interesting.
However, considering both Freddy and Myers reworks, it has me terrified what they plan to do to Skull Merchant. She's been in such a terrible state (probably even worse than Freddy ever was even at his worst), BHVR went back on their word about her, and their is no indication she is leaving F tier any time soon. And if/when she does, she will most likely just end up ANOTHER garbage projectile or dash killer.
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No.
BHVR already tried to present a version that let her use controllable drones to injure/down survivors and it was hated by pretty much everyone. Stop trying to turn her into a ANOTHER projectile or dash killer.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4065578#Comment_4065578
Recall undetectable is actually so much fun. So many cool plays you can do with it. She's super effective at sneaking up to people now
I used to be an advocate for the stealth on recall. Then I tried it and found it to be obnoxious and clunky.
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066197#Comment_4066197
I definitely agree that SM is weak rn, though I do think the single scanline is a very good idea. Good players are very deliberate on which rotation they place their drones in depending on the survivor's position in the loop, and use carefully counterrotating switches at the right moment to accelerate triggering the drone effect, which I think is really cool, and adds a lot of mastery and Depth to SM, but yes, she is still too weak imo
I fundamentally disagree with everything you have said.
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Just revert her back to how she was pre-gutting until they can do a decent rework.
And for the love of god, don't listen to Pixel Bush's terrible ideas. I respect his dedication to Merchant and wanting her to be what she should be, but my god his ideas for how to get there are bad.
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Apply directly to the forehead
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The "go next" problem got exponentially worse the moment Skull Merchant got giganerfed. It wasn't non-existent before, but this act was the devs basically validating this type of attitude and behavior. Survivors basically got rewarded for it, so why wouldn't they do it more over a larger number of things, no matter how mild they are?
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@skwillexy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052860#Comment_4052860
Then she needs more buffs if its not for a rework. How about double scanlines or stealth drones? Thats what she was usually thought for, a setup/trap killer. With one beam only and no stealth mode, drones are way too easy to avoid imo
The devs need to grow some spines and revert her back to how she was before her massive nerfs and make small adjustments from there. What they did was such a complete overreaction.
Baring that, they should double down on the stealth aspects of her kit. Lean more into the techno-hunter aesthetic she has going on.
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@skwillexy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052797#Comment_4052797
I mean she is still garbage and pretty much F tier in every ranking, just not unplayable anymore, and thats only because they removed the vault immunity to the scanlines. Pixel Bush made a great video on it, I would recommend it.
I've lost a massive amount of respect for Pixel with his constant talk of turning her into ANOTHER projectile slop killer that we don't need with the stupid "drone buddy" idea that a bunch of morons think is a good idea. If it isn't dash slop, it's projectile slop, and I'm sick of both of these styles.
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She's at the bottom of D-tier on most lists for a reason. The only thing keeping her out of F-tier next to Trapper and Skull Merchant is a (semi-) on-demand teleport.
I don't think I would say she needs to go back to her original form, but she certainly needs quite of bit of help right now.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039459#Comment_4039459
"Without suicides or DC's"
It was 68% without those. And considering we currently have killers with higher kill rates than that after adjusting for DC's and suicides that aren't getting touched AT ALL, this argument is no longer valid (and it wasn't a valid reason to begin with).
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@ThatRyanB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4036771#Comment_4036771
I'd love to dig into this a little more so I can make sure the feedback makes it to the right folks. Would you be able to elaborate on why you feel this is a nerf?
After trying it myself for awhile, I have come to the conclusion this was a bad idea. It feels awkward to utilize and pretty much runs counter-intuitive to what she is supposed to be doing. It might have been okay if a number of other changes were made to go along with it.
That being said, nerfing her undetectable before this change was ALSO A BAD IDEA. Is it really that big of a problem to let be good a ONE THING? Who cares if she can have near permanent Undetectable? Several other killers can do that already. Yes, they have some manner of downside to go along with it. Want to know what her downside is?
SHE IS TERRIBLE AT EVERYTHING ELSE.
At this point, you might at well lean harder into the stealth killer aspects if you guys are too afraid to maintain her trap playstyle. At least that would maintain something of her identity rather than turning her into ANOTHER boring, repetative dash or projectile killer.
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She is still the worst killer in the game by a MASSIVE margin.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
Any survivors want to address the genuine problems killer mains had with the ptb? Or just sling strawmen around?
Additionally, I would like to hear your definitions of slugging and tunneling. Is it tunneling to hook meg, kate, Meg, Adam, Meg? What if a Steve who was just unhooking bodyblocked for his unhooker. Is going after Steve tunneling? Or what if the last survivor who was unhooked jumped on a gen in the killers face? Would hooking them be tunneling?
From what I've been able to piece together, yes. All 3 of those scenarios are considered tunneling.
Here is the harsh truth that nobody is willing to admit out loud: they aren't going to be satisfied until it is literally impossible to tunnel on a base mechanic level. What they ACTUALLY want is killers to be required to hook all 4 survivors before they can hook someone a second time. Repeat for stage 2, requiring 8 hooks before you are allowed to kill someone.
What they basically want is survivors to have permanent endurance until all other survivors have equal hook stages to them. No amount of incentives or punishments will stop it because getting a survivor out quickly is just that good.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030649#Comment_4030649
Yet those identical survivors are often told to bring perks to counter the identical cheese tactics of many killer players, which are used regardless of who they're playing as. So that advice can be flipped here. If pallets are an issue for you, Fire Up, Brutal Strength, Spirit Fury, Hubris, Enduring, and Dissolution can all help to use the sense of safety the pallets give them against them.
You're still trying to shift this from my point though, which is hyperbolic responses, not just the pallets. The current post about why killers would install the game is so overstuffed thin-skinned crying about quiting over any little thing. You don't see this level of emotion from survivors nearly as much.
I'm not shifting from the point. I have nothing to say about it because I agree with it. Hyperbole is a problem that BOTH sides are guilty of. Don't act as if survivors don't do the same. They screeched and cried so insanely hard they got a low pick rate, mid-tier killer completely gutted into the worst killer in the game for no good reason.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030621#Comment_4030621
First, I'm not saying the pallets don't need adjusting. I'm actually deeply indifferent. They're not hurting me as killer. My last 30 days I've played as Wraith, Spirit and, mostly, Dredge, with no pallet-break add-ons or perks and I'm sitting at a 78% KR. So the problems other people are having just aren't happening to me. I'm also at a 39% ER as survivor, so they're not helping me there either.
My point is there are people saying they have thousands of hours and they'll quit the game over an update that's new and will clearly get nerfed. These sort of hyperbolic (and, I'm sure, disingenuous) drama displays are so embarrassingly over-the-top but somehow super common. I'm always hearing the word "adapt" when a new overtuned killer comes out yet the adaptation only seems to be expected of one side.
And the pallet thing is one example. Survivor mains on this forum tend to be mostly thoughtful and poignant and what they need to be is obnoxious and loud.
Survivors are often told to "adapt" because at the end of the day, they are just skins. They all play the same, do the same thing, etc. They are balanced among each other because there is no uniqueness, therefor it comes down to individual skill (what what perks they chose).
Telling killers to "adapt" isn't so simple because every killer is different and functions differently. Because of that, a new thing (perk or playstyle or whatever) that survivors get may be flat-out un-adaptable because of how a particular killer works.
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@cogsturning said:
Survivors aren't being loud enough. The feedback from the last two ptbs has been dominated by killers screaming, crying, and ripping out their hair. The forum has been heavy with them trying to direct the narrative by threatening to uninstall because of things as minor as pallets or tbagging (and it's clealrly working). You're going to have to match that overly-emotional intensity if you want to achieve anything.
It's not that simple.
The pallet density thing wouldn't be a problem if the gap in power between killers wasn't so astronomically big. Sure, it helps survivors against some of the top level killers like Blight, Billy, etc. (not by a huge amount, but it's noticeable). But is also renders a majority of the killer roster exponentially weaker than they already were. It hurts the weaker killers far more than it hurts the strong killers. That's the problem.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4019886#Comment_4019886
Yeah, I saw buffs, I just didn't see any information about them gave up on rework. Thank you for information!
A few inconsequential buffs and a few other nerfs don't mean anything. There has been no official word on the rework status.
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She is still going to be the worst killer in the game and basically unplayable, especially with the stupid amount of pallets around now.
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The "buffs" don't do anything because they also nerfed other aspects. She will still be the worst killer in the game.
She needs her second scan line back to even BEGIN to climb out of F-tier.
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Because she sucks and the increase in pallets have made her exponentially worse. Being at max condemn doesn't matter if she can't ever catch you.
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They are busy trying to turn her into ANOTHER boring Dash or Projectile killer.
Because GOD FORBID we have ANYTHING ELSE.
Just look at what they did to Myers.
I anticipate at least another 6 months minimum before we hear anything again considering how badly the two design previews were received.
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At least Krasue is still playable, even if a bit awkward right now. It's better than what they did to Skull Merchant (a mid-tier killer with a low pick rate) unnecessarily, who is basically unusable now with a likely garbage-level rework on the horizon.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014454#Comment_4014454
i don't think its healthy to be talking about kill rates when we don't even know what the current ones are, BHVR has not given us official stats on what the kill rates in over a year and there is no way to get a official number (i swear last one i saw was around when they reworked Freddy)
you are just assuming the kill rate will drop below 60% when we haven't even had access to them stats in over a year, the current kill rates on certain killers could be over 80 percent but we don't know. (no nightlight does not count, im talking about official stats released by bhvr.)
Edit: this is the last official kill rate i could find posted in 2022. please if there is something newer show but dont go on about kill rates when you dont even know what they are (again nightlight does not count as it only includes matches people uploadThe most recent official stats way from back in the January to March block.
One of the biggest problems with BHVR's data is they are either purposefully obscuring things, or they don't understand why certain numbers are the way they are.
Freddy was fresh off his rework, so it wasn't a surprise to see him high. Lot of people played him and survivors were still learning how to deal with him, so his kill and pick rate was unnaturally high. I imagine it did not stay there otherwise we would have been changes by now. And we don't really see anyone complaining about Freddy.
MMR 500 is pretty low, so it isn't a surprise to see Sadako and Dredge fairly high, but those are not telling the full story. Example: Sadako is low level stomper, but is generally a really weak killer once survivors have an idea of how to play. She falls off hard as MMR goes up. She has no chase and Condemn is basically worthless against average survivors. Dredge is inherently stronger than Sadako, but has the same problem of falling off as survivors get better and can better deal with his powers.
Blight, Nurse and Spirit are almost always in the top of the kill rates because they have inherently broken powers. Skull Merchant was completely gutted for having a 68% kill rate, yet killers like Blight and Nurse continue to be untouched for years.
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Skull Merchant was already the worst killer in the game. Might as well twist that knife a bit more by adding a bunch of pallets that can be chained that she can't deal with.
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Skull Merchant tier 1 is quite good. Very unnerving. The rest, not so much.
Wesker's is also peak for obvious reasons.
Legion's however is the best in the game and very clearly had the most work put into it. It isnt just one TR, but 16, altered based on your addons. And every one of them is a banger.
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Myers is why I have no faith in what they will do to Skull Merchant.
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@lettuchia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010147#Comment_4010147
That's not a challenge, it's just not possible against a good team, and if it was then it would take minimal skill expression because that's how basic m1 killers work
Blight has one of the most braindead easy skills to use. The mechanical skill it takes to use him is WAAAAAY overestimated. Even if you never actually hit someone with it, his ability to chew through pallets and cover distance more than makes up for it.
By your own logic, Skull Merchant should be one of the most overpowered killers in the game when played well because of how hard she is on both a macro and micro level.
Oh wait…she's actually still the worst killer in the game even at optimal play.
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@lettuchia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010450#Comment_4010450
Then all stealth killers should be removed, stealth killers should never be anywhere near strong
This statement here is case and point as to why Blight (and Huntress, to a lesser extent) has completely warped the killer role around themselves for the worse and why the community has gaslit itself into believe these are the ONLY acceptable forms of killer that can exist. Blight is one of the most boring and uninteractive killers in the game, yet people scream and complain when a killer doesn't function like he does to the point they end up nerfed into uselessness.
We aren't allowed to have unique killers anymore with powers that do different things. We aren't allowed to have play styles that don't involves just running really fast at survivors or throwing something at them. Everything must be a variation of Blight or Huntress.
The killer roster has gotten so mind numbingly stale.
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Proper PTB's will typically take a month or more, going through multiple rounds of changes during that time. BHVR doesn't do actual PTB's. These are more mostly marketing demos. Yes, changes happen afterward, but almost every single time the changes make people question what they are doing.
This is why this current content cadence is simply not sustainable. People wanted LESS new content in exchange for spending all of that time fixing the base game flow, perks and killers that actually need help. Instead we have maintained the new content cadence and gotten half-assed reworks and poorly designed/implemented base-game changes. Older killers and survivors need overhauls in kits, models, animations, voice acting, etc. That isn't happening though. If they don't want to do DBD2, then they need to modernize half the roster, if not more.
Their strict adherence to these deadlines is a problem and we've now seen that two patches in a row, if not more than that.
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The only maps I feel are blatantly unbalanced are Eyrie of Crows, Haddonfield, Forgotten Ruins, Badham and Garden of Hope. Everything else is mostly killer dependent.
I would say the Swamp maps are just terrible on both sides though.
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I still say Pig deserves a overhaul at this point. New model, new animations, new chase music and voice acting by Shawnee Smith (who has said several times she would love to do it).
Honestly BHVR needs to spent time upgrading a lot of the older characters (killers and survivors) to a more modern standard with better models and voice acting.
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I'm withholding my opinion on things for now, but I kind of want everything to go through just to watch the chaos.
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I'm on the side that thinks map offerings should block that particular map from showing up.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3970705#Comment_3970705
I never thought the condemn should be a central part of her power I wish it were just slowdown to help her out as a M1 killer
I always played her and wanted her to be based around using the TVs to be everywhere at once, surprise survivors, and to use the TVs in chase. But they are always turned off, there is absolutely no surprise factor from a TV that shows its aura through walls with a distinct global/directional sound cue when she uses it, and she comes out of them far too slowly to actually use in chase, even with bloody fingernails add-on. I agree they need to lean into that playstyle more and make condemn more of a background thing as that was always the most fun way to play her and is why I had way more fun with original sadako
I disagree completely. Condemn should be the focus of her power. We don't need more chase-focused killers. We need more that operate in different ways with alternate play styles.
Sadako's problem is that her Condemn play style is bad AND her chase ability is bad AND her stealth ability is bad. There isn't a single aspect that hasn't been nerfed to oblivion. The only thing keeping her out of F-tier next to Skull Merchant is her ability to teleport.
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@GeneralV said:
Well, my thanks to Puzzled Storage for asking the question. I created a Reddit account earlier today specifically to ask about Skull Merchant, but apparently you cannot type anything in the subreddit if your account isn't older than two weeks, so my question was immediately deleted.
But anyway, I would like to quickly propose a discussion about what is actually written here, because it looks a bit concerning.
It starts out great with "retaining trap playstyle". That's excellent, really. However, the other two I think are a bit scary. "Remove passive lethality" is odd, imho. Because that is kinda the point of a trap killer: the active part of their playstyle is setting traps, the web of traps they create passively acquires results.
Trapper, for instance, doesn't control his traps. He controls their strategic placement, but they automatically trap a survivor if they step on it. So, it seems a bit contradictory to move away from passive threats while retaining trap playstyle… unless they mean like the original design, where the drones applied the exposed but they didn't injure you, then it is okay.
The drone buddy can be bad if it remains the way it was. In the last design preview it was basically a mid-range M2, which I strongly believe Skull Merchant shouldn't have, much like the dashes from both previews. Unless this drone does something else entirely, I am personally not a fan of its inclusion.
It is hard to judge based on a single post and we still don't have all the information but I am worried. Very much so.
I still think the drone buddy is a terrible idea and is completely antithetical to her identity. I can almost guarantee they are going to put the majority of her power budget in that and turn her into ANOTHER projectile killer.
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@LockerLurk said:
Killer ain't that strong but he's fun. Killers do not have to be strong if they are fun. He's fun to play as and against, he's got the sneaky jumpscare elements, he's got something for everyone with his kit and the license and cosmetics definitely feel faithful to FNAF in my opinion. Great Licensed DLC.
11/10 would springlock again.
I find him incredibly boring to play as and play against. So no, he doesn't have something for everyone. He is just ANOTHER repetitive projectile killer.
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@Rookie1978 said:
Me disagreeing with people isn't me instituting a grand conspiracy im just regularly dumbfounded that people can actively play this game and hold that opinion at the same time
In order to facilitate discussion, what exactly do you like about her? What character fantasy is she supposed to fulfill or portray? What does she do compared to other killers that makes you want to play her?
Genuinely curious what merit other people see in her and I've never gotten a straightforward answer so maybe the BHVR forums can give me one
At the bare minimum, it's because she does something different.
I'm so incredibly bored of all of the dash and projectile killers. They might as well all just be skins because they all basically do the same thing with a different coat of paint. We desperately need more variety in killer play styles. Not everyone want's to play 1000 different variations of Blight or Huntress.
Her fantasy is about being a stalker, hunter, and projecting her sense of superiority through strategy and intellect rather than raw strength. Her trailer covers the idea rather well; Renato and Thalita unknowingly fall into her trap. It's about map control and macro game play rather than microing around in a circle. Needing survivors to utilize a different strategy to win is not a bad thing.
Turning her into some aborted chimera of Twins and Singularity (one of which survivors hate and the other they tolerate at best) is the absolute wrong thing to do and goes completely against her fantasy and design. That's why the "previews" were garbage.
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@ThatRyanB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3960362#Comment_3960362
I promise you, there's no disrespect intended for Killers from our side. PTBs are intended to be a space where we present changes to the community to go hands-on with and share their feedback on. Just because something makes it to the PTB, doesn't mean that's the precise state it will then make it to the live game in.
We've been closely following community feedback on these 3 topics (among many more, of course), and have been sure to share this feedback with the team.
While I totally get that it can sometimes be frustrating to come face to face with changes that you don't vibe with, believe me, sharing constructive feedback on what does or doesn't feel good is immensely helpful to both us and the wider dev team, as it helps inform further balancing adjustments.
No disrespect?
The current horrible state of Skull Merchant and laughably bad "previews" you did is proof that is completely untrue.
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Sadako was supposed to have a map that went with her chapter, but it got scrapped. I still hope one day we will get to see it by some miracle.
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@Clown_Syndrome said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3937036#Comment_3937036
Pig has licensing issues? Didn't we had a SAW tome and new cosmetics?
People have been asking for Pig to get custom chase music for a long time, and Shawnee Smith has said on more than one occasion she would love to do voice lines for Amanda. However, the license holders have not green lit either of them and nobody knows why.
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The mori is kind of tame, all things considered. Other Killers have much more brutal and/or disturbing mori animations.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3934376#Comment_3934376
Disagree. Then again, it solely depends on how you play her.
Imo, thes in the middle of c tier right next to Piggy.
She easily jumps to a-tier if played by the right person on Gideon meat plant.
The only thing keeping her out of F-tier is her ability to teleport. Her chase is bad, her stealth is bad (and still bugged), her macro is bad, her Condemn is such a joke that even survivors meme on it.
Just because she's better on a couple of maps doesn't make her above D-tier. That's like saying Blight and Billy aren't S-tier because a couple of maps don't really favor them.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3934371#Comment_3934371
Sadako is nowhere near f-tier. Please don't exxagerate.
Not F-tier, but she's D-tier at best.