NuclearBurrito
NuclearBurrito
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@miaasma said:
spirit is frustrating because she has no counterplay
you're listing perks, which i've already said doesn't matter and isn't an argument. perks aren't counterplay
the points you brought up were regurgitated from other people i've already spoken to in this thread
spirit holds all the cards in any interaction with a survivor. playing against a spirit is tantamount to playing a guessing game. winning a guessing game doesn't mean you counterplayed the spirit, it means the spirit messed up
i'm going to leave this thread since i've said everything i'm going to say and, like i said earlier, i didn't come here to convince anyone, not to mention any previous instance of me (or others) having a balance discussion with you has been akin to talking to a brick wall, which is another reason i don't feel like having a full on discussion with you
@miaasma these kinds of WIFOM style mindgames may seem like guessing but I can assure you that there is a lot of psychology involved.
And either way, the Spirit is playing the exact same "guessing game"
Running to the next loop vs vaulting the pallet when a spirit stands still in front of a dropped pallet is something both the Spirit needs to predict from the survivor AND something the survivor needs to predict from the spirit.
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Make this a left behind rework
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@Paladin_Goo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/526715#Comment_526715
I mean, largely I think spirit is fine. Except for prayer beads. That's bullshit.
But your statement..let me show you how stupid that sounds:
"Just because killers couldn't handle infinites does mean they should be nerfed" (as the other guy said, and they were nerfed)
"Just because killers couldn't handle pallet loops doesn't mean they should be nerfed" (they are getting nerfed)
"Just because killers couldn't handle self care, exhaustion perks etc etc etc doesn't mean they should be nerfed"
Those all sound equally as stupid as your original statement. Killers cry for nerfs more than anyone; and when things get nerfed, they want it nerfed even more.
You forgot to mention that bringing up perks is a terrible counter argument
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Ok let me be a bit more helpful. Imagine the following scenario:
Your healthy, and you've just dropped a pallet in front of the spirit who's chasing you, she's not moving and there is another loop a little bit away with another pallet if you can get there.
You can either:
A: Vault the pallet
B: Stay where you are
C: Run to the loop
D: Walk away
The spirit could either
A: Wait without phasing
B: Phase to the other side of the pallet
C: Phase to the loop
D: Phase in between the loop and the pallet
Some of these options are better than others. But all of them have something the other party can do about it.
Being injured limits your options unless you have iron will, but you can still avoid the hit if you can predict her correctly
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@SeducedByDaemonette said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/526715#Comment_526715
Just because killers couldn't handle infinites , doesn't mean they should've been nerfed . The same logic . Red rank spirits don't fall for mindgames
Ok then stop falling for her mindgames
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She's the only Killer that relies on mind games. That kind of gameplay is never OP so long as the other side knows to expect it (which is why people complain about specifically prayer beads so much)
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Sounds good to me
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It always spawns at one survivor left. At anything more than 1 surv the conditions were unchanged
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/525926#Comment_525926
Now this idea I like!
Some incentive to infect the objects at a loop first when they run to it and it actually gives her some anti-loop to her power. Great idea!
Now would this be along with the hypothetical gen repair speed slow if they chose to stay fully infected/broken or instead of?
@Blueberry probably not? They are compatible changes that don't interact with each other. So if it were up to me I would pick one, try it out and then have the other be on standby if we need it.
For example if we add the MS addon and she starts 4king at red ranks like it's nobodies business then we don't need any gen speed decrease. But if she's struggling then having both is an option.
Plus there are a lot of numbers involved here, and thus a lot of smaller changes that could be made for tweaking.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/525851#Comment_525851
Well hypothetically let's say she got a 15% repair debuff while fully infected/broken. Do you think she would then be rank 1 viable? I would say no.
What else would you give her instead?
@Blueberry MS decrease.
Actually, a more interesting mechanic would be that survivors get hindered after interacting with infected objects, with the slow time scaling with your sickness (max 3 second slow maybe?) the % would probably be 10 or 15%.
The only other thing we would do would make it have to be infected at the START of the action, that way plague is rewarded for the alternative uses of her power besides hitting Survivors directly (infect the pallet and window, loop the survivor, win)
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Billy + Clown
Billy has great mobility and downing speed, but is weak to loops
Clown has great anti-looping, but no mobility or extra downing speed.
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Obviously complaining to the devs. The Survivors are 100% correct to be doing gens and it would be silly to claim otherwise.
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For those saying spine chill is not worth running:
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Alright, I play a fair amount of both killer and survivor. But I think the survivors need some more incentive to play more stealthy instead of balls out.
Ok so while you are addressing a real issue, you aren't getting at the right causes.
Tracking perks do not counter stealth to the extent that you are suggesting. And while more BP rewards would indeed be great they aren't going to fix anything by themselves.
The REAL issue is a combination of 2 things:
Looping and Scratch marks.
First of all: You are going to be caught eventually, it's not a matter of if but when.
That's not because avoiding being caught is impossible if we design the game for it, but rather if you can avoid the Killer the whole game with any real consistency then the game will be boring AF at the very least for the Killer.
Thus the game is going to come down to what happens AFTER you get caught. And the answer right now is obviously that you get chased, that part is fine.
The issue is in what the survivor's options now are. In theory you can either:
A: Get back into hiding
or
B: Stall until A is possible
however Scratchmarks mean that A is extremely unreliable without a dedicated build for it, and even with that dedicated build it still is risky to pull off. Thus in order for the game to have any sort of balance what so ever the Survivor's ability to stall in a chase needs to be amazing, and it is.
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@weirdkid5 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/521489#Comment_521489
Exactly. I played since Day 1.
Just cause infinites are gone doesn't mean the game is currently balanced.
Besides, whenever someone uses infinites as an example of a "nerf" to Survivors, is always makes me ######### myself.
You can't nerf something that never should have existed.
@weirdkid5 false. You can absolutely nerf something that shouldn't have existed. Any time a mechanic is removed is an example of this. Either it was accounting for an outdated meta or it was something that shouldn't have existed. Trying to claim that nerfing something like infinites doesn't count as a nerf is an example of the No True Scotsman fallacy.
Thus infinite removal would be a valid rebuttal to for example the claim that "Survivors are never nerfed" or something similar.
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@artist said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/522680#Comment_522680
wait, high risk/high reward is a bad thing now?
@artist it is if the outcome is determined before the game starts.
Since that basically means that you roll a die and if it rolls correctly then you get a huge boost and otherwise you get a huge hindrance.
Imagine if the survivors had a perk that at the start of the trial would randomly give them either permanent 15% haste or permanent 15% hindrance with 50/50 odds. That perk would be terrible for the game.
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@tehshadowman33 said:
I'm sad jumpscare Freddy is going bye bye.
Red Paint brush + Monitor and Abuse + Lery's = Pooping your pants
@tehshadowman33 you don't need Lery's lol. Unlike other stealth killers Freddy is 100% completely invisible and has no need for LoS blockers
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/522004#Comment_522004
That much I can't confirm at this time.
...which funnily enough answers my question
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@Ember_Hunter said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/521926#Comment_521926
Yes, now when you are awake, you hear the normal music, but when asleep, you hear the lullaby so it's (a little) harder to last in chases with him.
@Ember_Hunter No I mean the size. Someone mentioned it being 32 meters instead of 24 now. Was this confirmed?
@Peanits ?
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Wait. Did they change his terror radius?
Also from the animation we saw it doesn't look like the telegraph happens at the start of the channel. Or in otherwords even if it's a 5 seconds channel that does NOT mean it's a 5 second head start for a surv at the gen.
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@Milo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/520588#Comment_520588
Because it's a hidden power. You can't see the effects in-game.
@Milo I know WHY. But that doesn't change the fact that it does it's job and it does it well. So from a balance perspective it doesn't need any major buffs.
It might be cool to let someone with the perk see scratchmarks through. It's not very useful but it serves to do what you say and see the effects for yourself.
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Lightweight is actually a pretty good perk right now. It's just underrated. I'd rather put the effect on calm spirit instead.
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@Rlabotath said:
For those that didn't play Identity V before their mid 2018 update, camping and tunneling used to be the only way to rank up if you were against a competent team of survivors. DBD only has a camping problem in regards to Bubba, as he's built to knock down altruistic survivors and their unhooks.
They literally made it so if you are within map distance of a hooked survivor, you're punished for "hook proximity" (it's literally too large an area imho) and can't double pip at any rank other than the mythical 21. Burrowed Time, Adrenaline off hook, MOM, Decisive, exhaustion cleared on hook, SWF, so many tools given to survivors to completely screw killers over.
Yes, getting tunneled or camped sucks, but as long as the rest of my survivor team escapes, I don't care, because the killer chose to waste his time and depip instead of attempt to win.
@Rlabotath Btw. What exactly did Identity V change in the mid 2018 update that solved the problem?
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Give the totems a laser gun that instakills anyone that touches it. Including dull totems.
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@Almo said:
What I thought was weird was when I got accused of tunnelling when Survivor A rescued Survivor B very close to me, and then promptly disappeared leaving me only one target, Survivor A. But then they did it again.
I mean, what am I supposed to do? Let the injured person go so I can hunt for someone who just vanished?
I know strictly speaking this is the definition of tunnelling, but Survivor A's behavior didn't leave me a lot of strategically intelligent options. :)
I had this one game where as wraith:
1: I hooked an ash for the second time (I had already ate his MoM)
2: I immediately cloak so I can go and find someone else
3: Before I can even turn around a Claudette with a flashlight unhooks him
4: I uncloak to chase them
5: The Claudette BODYBLOCKS the ash preventing him from getting to a window (and then using it herself right next to a safe loop that will take me far too long to chase)
6: I down and rehook the ash for a Kill
End of the game
Claudette: "Stop being such a ** you tunneling wraith"
Not even the other survivors bought it.
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You do realize there is such thing as a fair advantage right?
For example if 4 survivors manage to complete the generators without dying, then all 4 survivors have a MASSIVELY increased chance of survival while at the same time for the Killer it is really hard to get any Kills without a build specifically for it. Even with NOED you are unlikely to get even 2 Kills.
So when the survivors get to the endgame through their wincon they have an overwhelming advantage.
Thus it is fair that when the Killer gets to the endgame through HIS wincon that he has an overwhelming advantage.
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Can we just go back to Victory cube based pipping?
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@Peanits said:
That's a latency issue. The killer cannot close the hatch or grab the survivor once they have started jumping by design. Whoever gets there first wins. The issue is that there's a delay between the survivors and the killer. By the time the survivor's client sends info to the killer saying, "Hey, I'm jumping in", they've already started closing the hatch on their end.
@Peanits right now it's consistent since Killer is host. But once dedicated servers come out wouldn't it make the entire thing come down to just lag?
Actually how exactly is a Killer supposed to stop a hatch escape via key? It seems to me like your only option is to tunnel anyone who brings a key.
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I always thought that victory cubes were the best iteration of the killer's pip system
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@NMCKE said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/518619#Comment_518619
Personally I'd like grabs (including from traps) to be worth 1 extra hit compared to hitting them all the way down. Since grabs are extremely hard to get regardless of what method you use, and are certainly worth rewarding.
Agreed, I also had the same idea, so I'll add your suggestion into my thread!
I refuse to support any pip system that DOESN'T reward optimal play. As such, if you are able to for example: Down all 4 survivors immediately and hook them all simultaneously, then that should be an auto iridescent in at the very least devout.
Devout is all about hooking and sacrificing survivors, your suggestion seems reasonable. Would you be okay with Devout rewarding both hooks and sacrifices?
1K and/or 4 hooks = Bronze
2K and/or 6 hooks = Sliver
3K and/or 8 hooks = Gold
4K and/or 10 hooks = Iridescent
Sure!
Generally I just use hook states in order to get the best curve (since that's what ultimately matters and NOT the actual number of hooks and a 4k is always exactly 12 hook states unless mori's), but that's close enough.
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Ok in all seriousness.
some builds:
Heal build - Empathy, Well make it, Spine chill, Botany
Vault build - Spine chill, Quick and Quiet, Dance with me, Lithe
Super stealthy build - Iron will, Distortion, Urban Evasion, Spine chill
Honestly just always run spine chill, it's amazing.
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DS, Adrenaline, Balanced landing, MoM
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Somethings:
Personally I'd like grabs (including from traps) to be worth 1 extra hit compared to hitting them all the way down. Since grabs are extremely hard to get regardless of what method you use, and are certainly worth rewarding.
So if you grab someone healthy off a gen then you would get 3x max chaser points and lock in 2 malicious points (since they can only heal off 1 state)
Additionally and more importantly:
I refuse to support any pip system that DOESN'T reward optimal play. As such, if you are able to for example: Down all 4 survivors immediately and hook them all simultaneously, then that should be an auto iridescent in at the very least devout.
Remember, a ranking system that tries to enforce ethical play misses the point of a ranking system. The whole reason why you want to have a ranking system in the first place is in order to track who is a better player than whom in order to matchmake the correct players together.
Thus if 1 person is getting 4k's in 4 hooks, while another player is getting 2K's in 10 hooks then the person with 4 hooks is clearly preforming the superior strategy, since it is fulfilling his win condition (killing survivors) more effectively than the person who is getting 10 hooks. If you think that's only because the 4ker camped for it then that's IRRELEVANT, since if someone uses scummy play in order to get optimal results then they are STILL getting optimal results and should be rewarded accordingly.
So no. Devout should NOT be based on hooks, or at the very least should be guaranteed iridescent for getting a 4k.
Besides. Camping isn't a good strategy, so if a Killer is winning by camping then what that means is that the people they are playing against are potatoes, and thus by giving the Killer a pip he will move up to face better players who know how to counter camping (gen rush), and will punish the Killer accordingly. Either way eventually the survivors will learn to counter camping and the Killers will have to learn strategies besides camping in order to continue ranking.
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Actually you DO get faster vault speed in EW2. It's just more at EW3
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Spirit 100%
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@NothingButFeedback said:
They need to get rid of object of obsession. It’s an infinite use wallhack that is used in SWF to simply call out where the killer is at all times. Combined with bond and empathy, it’s way too strong, especially when the survivor exploits every loop in the book, and simply has no place in this game.
@NothingButFeedback why would a SWF group need bond or empathy?
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I'ma say their 7
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@radicaldenson said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/461538#Comment_461538
well huntress was alive during ww2 so she could be over 80 years old. Depends when dbd takes place
It takes place always
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Ok so fundamentally it's not that bad. But the RNG is a problem. And some of these are far worse than others.
For example Hindered and inept are by far better than any of the others with Hindered being a godsend for any Killer besides Nurse and Spirit.
Suggestions: instead of having it be RNG make it so that it goes:
66% or less = Inefficient
33% or less = inept
0% = Hindered (which should only happen if the survivors ignore the secondary objective)
These stack on top of each other so at 22% survivors are both inefficient and inept.
Scrap all of the other ones
Fog is extremely likely to cause technical issues with switching it in and out while making it client side only at the same time
Leadfoot and laboured are useless, sometimes even negative utility due to messing with your perceptions of a survivor's distance
Exhausted and nearsighted require specific perks to work
Broken is solving a problem that doesn't exist.
And that just leaves inefficient, inept and hindered
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Yep. Just bad luck. Prestige and try again
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Ok so the video shows the plague doing better than the Billy. But the text says that Billy is better than plague.
What exactly is this supposed to prove again?
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@TheRoyalOwl said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/517300#Comment_517300
So you three gen with all those killers?
I really doubt half of those killers will be able to keep enough gen pressure for a three to work.
Technically 5 gen but I mean... yeah that just makes the problem worse
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Question. What would the higher tiers do?
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@NightmareReborn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/517094#Comment_517094
YES! THIS EXACTLY!
You should have to WORK to get the game to slow down, not have it spoon fed to you. If there's a SWF with all toolboxes, then that's another issue on its own (you could just use Franklin's). However, if this is an "every game" scenario, then that's not the survivors' fault. My solution to "genrushing": Buff the killers with no map pressure AND with no way to slow the game down.
Mhm
@NightmareReborn personally I think that the gen rush problem is NOT entirely a balance problem.
So while they should absolutely do what you just said (buff killers with low map pressure/chase potential) it wouldn't solve all of the problems with the objective. Although it arguably would solve the most pressing one (depends on your priorities. Personally I consider non-balance problems to be more serious than balance issues)
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@GrootDude said:
@NoShinyPony has a pretty good suggestion. :)
@TreemanXD what about mine ;(
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@[Deleted User] said:
@NuclearBurrito I don’t start of with a 3 gen strat, i start with a 5 or 4 gen strat depending on their placement.
And I mistakenly wasnt clear about slugging. I don’t intentionally slug, just every down i assess if I actually can spare the time to hook them. It’s about developing situational awareness of the gens that need protecting
@DudeDelicious again. What Killer are you using. 5 and 4 gen strats have the exact same issue as the 3 gen strat except they are easier to brute force with until they start to resolve like a 3 gen strat.
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@KillermainBTWm8 said:
I don't like licensed killers they usually have to stick by a certain power and can be very weak because of it (Leather Face,Freddy now most likely GF) Although Legion and Plague aren't great they sure don't have the best track record with certain licensed killers also I'd much rather them design their own killers with new possibly neat powers. But that's all my opinion so IDK
The shape is good tho
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Oh wait. Doc can do it too with some builds. Since he can interrupt gen progress long term with his shock to get some regression.
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@[Deleted User] said:
@NuclearBurrito you can maintain a defensive gen strategy yet be aggressive doing so. For the longest time now i’ve gone into trials focused on preventing the survivors treating their own objectives, and make judgement calls on how far i’ll allow myself to move away from a cluster of gens, and judgement calls on how much time i allow between checking each gen in the cluster i’ve chosen.
Unless the survivors have a key, then they cannot escape unless they come to ME (the area I won’t leave) to try and complete their objective. Survivors will try anything they can to bait me away, but i just refuse to take it. Eventually they get bold enough to be a bit more risky in their repair attempts, normally the kind of mistakes i can capitalise on. Eg. I’ve downed someone not too far from a nearly completed gen i then immediately return to, because almost always a group will have rushed in to try and desperately finish repair because they believe i’ll be too focused on either hooking or using the slug as bait. Just 1 of many examples.
As for loops i either ignore them entirely or force the pallet drop, sometimes intentionally taking the stun, because pallets are not the threat they’re made out to be. A survivor could try to bait me to the same loop a dozen times, but it doesn’t faze me. Again they HAVE to come back to the gens at some point.
@DudeDelicious what killer do you play? Because a 3 gen strat is incredibly risky. The only Killers I can see it sort of working for are Nurse, Billy and Hag due to their mobility. The new Freddy might work too.
Otherwise even if you stay near the same 3 generators the entire game it's only a matter of time before they complete one of them.
And you mentioned downs, but in order to get downs against a good survivor you need to commit to a chase. 3 genning isn't a subtle strategy. Once they realize what you are doing (which won't take long since you won't have pressure on almost the entire map and that shows) they will just run in to get some gen progress, Run out when you see them, loop you until you leave (during which time everyone else is doing gens), heal if you hit them and then repeat. Since with all 4 survivors they can do this faster than you can regress the generators after chasing them off this is a losing strategy. And if you commit to a chase at that point the other 3 survivors can just focus a single generator making that a losing strategy too.
Those slug strategies you mentioned require you to first down someone, and downing someone while using that kind of strategy is disproportionately difficult and VERY exploitable.
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@[Deleted User] said:
The objectives aren’t the problem, it’s the killers playing this game and how they currently treat the objectives.
I’m oversimplifying but most killers don’t treat gens as an objective that needs protecting, and leave high pressure by the way side. They’re too focused on every chase must end in a down, and there’s no focus on where/how far that chase is taking you, just maim and hook.
Funnily enough I've heard someone else say the exact opposite.
@DudeDelicious Can you explain why you think a defensive gen protector playstyle is more effective than a more aggressive playstyle? I can see a lot of fundumental flaws with it, such as anyone who is good at looping can stall you out indefinitely if you are just giving up when they inevitably loop you. So if you are against 4 good loopers (something which you can't control) then you should lose almost every time with that strategy. Do you have a specific strategy to counteract this?