NuclearBurrito
NuclearBurrito
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I actually really like it. However I'd make 3 changes:
1: always have 4 blocks instead of 3. Because otherwise having more playtime just makes you objectively stronger than other survivors making the game more grindy in a way that is just uninteresting.
2: The Killer can see how many HP blocks each survivor has, even if he can't see the progress towards losing a block.
3: Remove second stage entirely, just have escape attempts cost 10 HP, or 5 with slippery meat.
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Anyone?
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Any feedback?
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what would tier 1 and tier 2 do?
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Here is what the game itself has to say about winning:
Nowhere else in the entire game is the term "win" or "goal" ever used except to refer to escaping or Killing again.
And yes this tutorial has been updated recently. It includes mentions to things like the endgame collapse and hatch closing. So if the wincons had changed since this tutorial was made then the tutorial ought to have been changed to reflect that. Since they weren't that means the wincons are what is stated here.
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Please state your thoughts and if there is anything else I should add. There are other useless Killer perks but either I couldn't come up with anything or the solution would be effectively scraping the perk for something else which is beyond the scope of this thread. (for example monstrous shrine)
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@knell said:
DBD Player on Scrabble: "Yeah, I know you won, but in my eyes, I also won because I had more seven letter words than you."
DBD Player on Chess: "You may have checkmated me, but I had fun taking your Queen, so doesn't that really make me the winner?"
DBD Player on Catan: "I don't care that you got to 10 Victory Points before I did, I had fun getting my Longest Road, therefore, from my perspective, I also won."
DBD Player on Poker: "You may have taken all of my chips, but who is really the winner? I mean, I'm the only one who had a Four-of-a-Kind during the whole playing session."
DBD Player on Werewolf: "The Villager Team may have wiped us out, but we did take out your Fortune Teller on the first turn, soooo who's really the winner?"
DBD Player on Whitehall Mystery: "Sure, you may have caught me in the end, but I had fun looping you the whole time, so surely that also makes me the winner."
DBD Player on Street Fighter 2: "But, really, my personal goal was to get as many throws as possible, and given that I accomplished that goal, doesn't that mean I win, at least from how I see it?
DBD Player on Rock, Paper, and Scissors: "Ok, you may have beaten my Scissors with your Rock, but given how we both had fun, doesn't that make us both winners in the end?"
Yes thank you
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That we need more of them?
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/513812#Comment_513812
Read my comment again. You’re talking about the “official” win. This thread is about a win in your eyes.
Ok well then in your eyes is Nurse the strongest Killer or not?
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/513791#Comment_513791
Nobody but you is claiming that “fun” and “balance” are the same thing. A win for you doesn’t mean a “official” win but a win in your eyes.
Winning is how you establish balance in a game.
If fun is winning then you can use substitution to establish that fun is how you establish balance in a game.
As in, the strongest Killer is the Killer who is best at achieving the Killer wincon. If the wincon is fun then by definition the strongest Killer is the Killer that is the most fun
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/513776#Comment_513776
Fun is subjective and I think she is fun. No one has claimed the “balance” and “fun” are the same things. Don’t act like anyone has said that.
Of course not. If fun is a wincon then fun = OP due to winning too much.
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/513757#Comment_513757
I lost in their eyes, I won in my eyes. Why is it so bad that people think they won if they had fun? No need to call people out over saying fun is a win for them.
That mindset is problematic whenever you go to have a discussion. Strength and balance both are in relation to winrate (or at least expected winrate) when discussed in video games.
For example if my wincondition is to kick every generator then my ability to win a chase is completely irrelevant. And if my wincon is to stop the generators from being completed (as survivor) then prove thyself suddenly becomes negative utility while bond is suddenly almost required.
If fun is the wincon then is Nurse really a strong Killer? I know a lot of people that say they don't enjoy playing as Nurse, does that mean she needs buffs?
And what about the Skill level of different players? Since again, in the context of a video game players who are better at optimizing their wincon are by definition better at the game. So does that mean someone who gets jumpstarted every 2 seconds and enjoys it despite always dying immediately is better at the game than a player who can consistently loop the Killer for 5 gens and never gets killed but is also getting board of the game? The first guy seems to be winning more often.
Don't we NOT want fun to be the sole metric for balancing Killers/Perks?
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/513741#Comment_513741
What rules inside the game saying that we can’t? The question was “what is a win to you?” We gave our answer.
The part of the games tutorial specifying the wincons. Same as any other game
Do you make up wincons for other games? Would you disagree with someone who said that destroying the enemy base in league was the wincon for that game? Or draining the other players health bar in streetfighter. Win conditions in any competitive game (as opposed to a singleplayer, sandbox or cooperative game) are objective. In fact they are what make the game a competition in the first place.
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/513704#Comment_513704
We aren’t in a tournament.
Besides the point. The point is that you can't use fun or effort to qualify wins.
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Ok everyone who's saying that winning is "having fun" or "playing well" or whatever. That may sound great and all but inevitably makes absolutely no sense as a wincondition. Like try applying that logic to other games.
In league of legends if I have fun then did I win? If so then does having more fun than the other team mean I should get the prize money from a tournament even if they destroyed our base every time? If so then clearly all of these tournaments are doing it wrong and everyone is lying/wrong about their win/loss records. If not then dead by daylight wouldn't be any different. And if "that's different" then prove it.
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What's up with the title? The post doesn't make any points involving the game not being asymmetrical
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@Blueberry said:
Just a small like 10% base slow on being asleep would be nice. Nothing like it is now, but just a little extra.
We haven't seen numbers yet but so far I think red ranks are just going to ignore waking up altogether unless it has very heavy penalties for refusing to wake up.
10% slow is too much to qualify for "a little extra". Even a 5% slow is enough to make the difference between a top tier and trash when over the entire chase.
His teleportation, snares and fake pallets should be enough given good numbers and not too many random downsides (so even money on him being good lol)
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@Andreyu44 said:
New rework:
Nurse can only blink once and the stun lasts 15 seconds.
But she is 115%,now.
pErFeCtLy BaLaNcEd, as all prettygoodjobsofars should be
Funnily enough that would actually be OP, since her stun is after the hit you could limit chase times drastically anyways with just a single well placed blink, while at the same times the 115% means you could also just chase normally when you can't guarantee it.
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@Peanits wait a sec. Does the blood pallet (that's what I'm calling the pallets freddy leaves btw) stun freddy if it hits him kinda like spirit furry? Since presumably it explodes after they are done throwing the pallet.
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@Boosted_Dwight said:
@NuclearBurrito Oh fu#k they better be doing an add on rework and not a power rework
Ehhh they never said rework.
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InB4 they buff nurse
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I'm a little worried about what the nurse change would be. They mentioned that it's "high priority".
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Because bugs and the problem of where to draw the line makes the entire thing one giant headache
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Literally just buff the numbers of all 3
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@suffering23 said:
1 thing have to be clear here, killers SHOULD be strong, they should be more than the survivors, survivors have tools and perks and teamwork on their side, so they have to make their way by working together, if the killers are only balanced and made fair, they stand no chance, billy is strong and only got his add-ons and chainsaw hitbox changes, they don't dare to change him more because people will go absolutely MAD and they know it, he is a powerful killer, same as nurse, they are strong! how they should be, but now they make such weak/neutral killers than survivors are so used to have neutral killers that they complain when one is too strong or that killers are cry babies and cry to be more powerful, we are meant to be strong, we are meant to kill you, while you are meant to survive, if spirit could see survivors in phase walk, nurse would be freddy tier compared to her, balance is needed yes, but keep killers 1 tier higher than survivors at all time, that's how it should be, they failed with plague, they made her same tier as survivors, what happens? survivors don't heal, they need to add 1 tier to her, and give a penality for not healing, wraith has no ability to down survivors but in chases, being able to hit survivors when you hit the bell for the first time wihtout any speed boost would be a tier up for him, even if the freddy rework is near, if he could go invisible time to time like spirit, it would be a tier up, and so on, every killer should be 1 tier higher, billy nurse and spirit are 2-3 tiers higher, but they are the exceptions, keep killers 1 tier higher, and the game will be fine.
@suffering23 literally not how balance works. If the 2 sides are the same tier then by definition they should both win just as much.
If Survivors not cleansing is a consistent and total counter to the plague then what that means is that the plague is NOT on the same tier as the survivors.
The fact that Spirit has both guaranteed counter play which itself has guaranteed counter play and so on means that it's SPIRIT that's on the same level as survivors and NOT the plague. Same for Billy and Hag.
Billy's power isn't strong, rather his power is just strongER (compared to most other Killers). That's just the amount of power you need in order to equal a team of survivors of equal skill.
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Survivor perk changes:
- Mettle of Man: We have changed the condition for getting stacks from being hit by a Killer's basic attack 3 times to perform a combination of safe unhooks and / or protection hits a total of 3 times to activate Mettle of Man's Endurance status effect. Survivors no longer have to be injured to receive Mettle of Man's Protection. This means that Mettle of Man will work similarly to Borrowed Time and will require more work from the Survivor to trigger Mettle of Man's Endurance status effect.
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@Mister_xD said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/509981#Comment_509981
thats your sight on the matter, i wont deny that it is possble to just have fun. in order to achieve this though, you need to ignore the games winning system and just have fun, weather you win or not. i personally found it a lot of fun to start cosplaying as survivors with leatherface. (my most succesfull build would be the "claudette" build: rusty chain / begrimmed chain (both if you feel like it), Bloodhound, Sloppy Butcher, Thanatophobia, Coulrophobia - basically, you do what claudettes do: healing. just that it is now a LOT harder to do so for the survivors when you are around), yet i do feel it when i 3k or 4k and only safepip. sometimes i literally want the victory cube to return xD
however, there are people out there that play to win and especially these people will feel like the game favors the survivor side.
I'm one of those people. If I can't feel like I'm working towards optimizing my winrate then everything else just kind of falls flat.
Who cares about unlocking perks? If there is no final objective then it doesn't amount to anything
Who cares about really cool strategies? Without a consistent goal there is no real way to differentiate between a good strategy and a bad one.
Why would I play in any way in particular? If I'm not optimizing for something then my actions are entirely arbitrary.
That's why the games stated goals (escaping for survivor and Killing everyone for killer) are so important while the emblem system I could care less about. AND it's a big part of why the game feels so survivor sided.
It's also why I don't think a 50% escape rate is even something you should consider balance. I know the devs consider it balanced, but I would disagree with them.
Think about escaping. If you can escape then whatever actions you took to get to that point were the correct ones. Maybe not always the smartest or nicest ones but they were definitely correct. You know this because you achieved your goal, and you couldn't possibly have achieved it better.
After all a bleeding survivor on death hook isn't more or less escaped than an untouched and healthy one if they both run through the door at the end.
However if you apply this reasoning to the Killer it doesn't hold as well. If I Kill 2 people then there is still more goal to accomplish, so I didn't win yet. If I Kill 3 people then again there is more goal to accomplish, so I can't say I've won. Hence why whenever I do winrate stat comparisons (I've done that in other posts) I always use 4k rate vs escape rate.
TLDR a fair winrate would need to be somewhere between 50% and 20% with 40-30% allowing for a lot of variety in outcome. 30% in particular actually has the interesting effect of making it so you can have it where all living players always have the same winrate no matter how many players are alive. Or in otherwords if you start with a 50/50 winrate for a 1v1 Survivor vs Killer and then work backwards then you end up with an overall winrate of 30%.
And everything about the game (besides the ranking system which is NOT the same thing as a victory system) supports the idea that it's 4k vs escape rate. The in game tutorial just flat out states that a survivors goal is to escape, and that a Killers goal is to kill the survivors. Each survivor can only escape once per game, and every Killer can only kill 4 times per game. So as a survivor if you escape once you win and if you kill 4 times as killer you win. And more importantly attempting to optimize those 2 stats is what leads to the full flow of the game.
If I'm optimizing a 3-4k instead of just a 4k, then that means once I've killed the 3rd person I can just go afk. If I'm optimizing for emblems then that leads to me playing in a weird artificially prolonged way that just feels incredibly forced (for both sides).
Optimizing for escaping ends up with an interesting balance between keeping the other survivors alive so we can do objectives and leaving them to die so the Killer doesn't get me instead. AND it requires me to master all of the aspects of the game (doing gens, looping, making saves ect). Trying to optimize something else like bloodpoints just leads to be doing things for the sake of it and not really ending up with a threshold which I can use to judge if I did enough or not. And if there IS a threshold then what do I do after completing it?
Even if I was trying to optimize for pips, how many? Do I only win with a 2 pip or is a 1 pip a win too? And that would mean that the balance of the game shifts depending on rank, which just isn't what a ranking system is even for. Like if it's 1 pip = win then why should I care about 2 pips? Couldn't I just math out how close I've gotten to a pip as a Killer and then when I've gotten enough just go to stand in a corner for the rest of the match?
Point is everything eventually wraps back to win conditions. And I mean EVERYTHING. Without a clear objective nothing works. Even sandbox games generally have something that you are working towards, like a main story line, or the top of a leaderboard, or even just a made up in game project which you hope to finish at some point. (I could never get into sandbox games for very long)
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Basically:
Nurse is slightly OP (with omega blink she's solidly OP) AKA S tier
Sprit/Billy/Hag are solidly balanced, A tier
Myers, plague and Huntress are borderline balanced (Still UP, but just strong enough to be viable), B tiers
Everyone else is underpowered to varying degrees.
Regarding the plague:
Yes I know that you can deny her corrupt by just not cleansing. But if you do that then that makes your whole team a 1 hit down that is projecting their location at all times. While that isn't top tier, it is strong enough to work with. Myers has a similar effect with his tier 3 but it's harder to set up and doesn't last forever, he has his stealth to make up for that fact however so he's still high tier.
Plus you can run thanatiphobia to instantly get like 16% slower gen progress on all 4 survivors just incase they play like that.
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/509882#Comment_509882
Nurse is 22.2% of games.
And my list contained 4 killers
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Because rank 1 Killers play Nurse/Billy/Spirit/Hag.
That and there isn't really a well defined win condition.
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@BadMrFrosty said:
Well, the general consensus on Ghostface is that not only is he terrible, but he basically has no power. So, to get back on the topic of discussing this dreadful killer, I present to you my ideas for GHOSTFACE: Top 5 Killer Edition. These changes aim at making baseline Ghostface as competitive as reasonably possible (as far as maps will allow for non-mobile, M1 killers). The intention of these suggestions is to make him competitive at high ranks and add another potential pick to the killer pool against competent survivors.
Ghostface Changes:
- Stalked survivors gain the Exposed status until they are hooked. This allows for sneaky plays and sudden downs which will allow the killer to gain momentum at a reasonable rate. It also ups the ante of being stalked, since getting away doesn't give you a free pass while the effect wears off. Keeping your eyes peeled for Ghostface is much more necessary after he's gathered the 'intel' he needs on the survivor.
- Night Shroud can no longer be disabled by survivors. The reward for 'seeing' Ghostface is a head start on the chase if he's caught on time, and that's not factoring in sprint burst. Be aware of your surroundings or pay the price.
- Ghostface moves at 4.6m/sec while crouched, losing his terror radius and red stain (FOV remains lower than normal).
- Ghostface can now stalk survivors running through corn but not other vision blocking elements (walls, rubble, etc). This helps differentiate him from Myers, who cannot stalk through corn, but who can potentially down multiple survivors with his power.
- The first attack against a fully stalked survivor gains increased lunge range. Again, this helps with getting a fatal opening hit on unaware survivors or those that spot him too late.
- Survivors injured by Ghostface's basic attack have the 'Trauma' debuff applied to them. Trauma decreases a survivors repair speed by 10/20/30% over 30 seconds until they are healed. Ghostface's attack has left the survivor shaken and paranoid, incapable of focusing on their task as diligently as before.
- Ghostface no longer gives survivors a noise notification when he enters stalk.
- Stalk time remains untouched.
There. +1 killer to red ranks. The funny part is, despite all of these very powerful buffs, I don't think he'd be good against the best survivors or SWF. For that, he'd need an entire overhaul of his kit, but this was in keeping with the developers vision for the killer (while removing the idiocy).
@BadMrFrosty If we remove survivors looking at him kicking him out of stealth then why would he ever not be in stealth?
And if his crouch is full speed then why would he ever stop doing it out of a chase? And what's the downside to doing it IN a chase?
While it would certainly make him stronger these buffs DON'T lead to interesting gameplay, and that's far worse than any balance issue.
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I would like to point out that they (the devs) very clearly defined what they consider a rework. And it absolutely isn't "just buffing or changing only one thing and that's it".
The Legion change? Update
The Plague PTB changes? No title
A ton of misc perk changes? No title
The DS change that completely changed the fundumental use case, replaced a lot of it's properties and added a new mechanic to it that didn't exist before? Rework.
Completely redesigning Freddie's power from the ground up? Rework.
It may sound like I'm nitpicking since it wasn't your main point at all. But if you're going to start accusing them of failing at the things they get right then it shows that the complaining is more important to you than trying to improve things.
Either way. It is far too soon to start saying he needs a rework. And I'm not saying that because it is the PTB because a problem is a problem no matter when you find out about it. And I'm also not saying that because he doesn't need some love.
I say it's too soon for a rework because we haven't even TRIED smaller changes yet. I highly doubt that it is fundamentally impossible to make a power like ghostfaces work.
For example what if in order break ghostface out of stealth you had to look directly at him (so some part of him is in the EXACT center of the screen) for 10 seconds straight.
No rework, just some number changes, yet it ain't so easy to break him out of stealth now is it?
Of course that would be totally broken, since he could easily just expose anyone whenever he felt like it. But to just say "thus he can't be fixed and needs a rework" is a defeatist attitude.
1 is obviously too weak, and 10 is obviously too strong, but there are plenty of numbers between 1 and 10, and plenty of other numbers to tweak with things like the time until someone is exposed, the recharge time on his ability or even more fundamental things like his unstealthed terror radius and even the range you can hear him entering stealth at like what @AChaoticKiller suggested.
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These are balance changes for hag. Quality of life changes are where they don't effect the actual interactions themselves, things like UI changes, adding animations, rewording things or changing the specific input requred to preform an action.
If the line would be anything that does more than helping a player get the most out of an ability that would otherwise require specific executions (such as auto aim on nurse). This is a balance change since it would reduce the effectiveness of the flashlight vs her rather than just the consistency or ease of use. Regardless of if it is a good change or not the title is misleading.
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And there you have it. Plague's tough access to corrupt purge is her issue.
Solutions are things like:
- Making 1 fountain corrupt at the start base kit (forget what the addon for that is called)
- Having vile purge inflict a debuff that makes it worth cleansing
- Creating an alternate way to get corrupt besides corrupt fountains
And it would need to be counterbalanced. Some potential methods of doing that are:
- Decreasing charge time for vile, corrupt or both
- Decreasing the max total spay for vile, corrupt or both
- Increasing the base time to consume corrupt purge from a fountain
- Decreasing time required for a survivor to cleanse
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Really? You guys are essentially saying that they are straight up making up the data. If the stats say she's 4king a majority of the time then clearly she's at least high tier.
Therefor, if she has an issue then it ought to be traceable to a non-balance issue with her. Or in other words any tweaks should not be made with the goal of making her stronger, but rather simply improving her gameplay loop's engagement.
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Is there anything you have learned from creating deathguarden (both versions) that can be applied to dead by daylight?
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The mechanic exists! It's called gen rush. Do it.
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@se05239 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/501015#Comment_501015
@NuclearBurrito It'll boil down to the requirements of triggering the effect. In the stream, they mentioned you needed to "interrupt" a survivor, aka pulling them off generators and such.. and I mean, I can have many, many matches where that never happens.
@se05239 no. They specifically stated its whenever you pick up a survivor. Interrupting them is one way to do that, but if you just down them normally and pick them up it triggers too.
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I'd say literally only the hag would be able to make use out of it
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Also I would like to remind everyone that a smaller terror radius = smaller red stain. Which is useful in a chase.
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You know what I want to see? This + Rancor vs SWF in endgame. Anyone unhooking the survivor get's mori'ed
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@BadMrFrosty actually you would never need to worry about DS with this perk. Since it always jumps onto the unhooker.
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I mean. If they've spotted you then they've ALREADY removed your power. Since your power is stealth.
So long as it doesn't remove the mark from an already marked target and it doesn't count then entire Suv FoV then I'd say it's fine.
Also remember that his power canceling like that has minor detection elements, since if it starts to drain then A: There is a survivor nearby and B: They have line of sight with you. Conclusion: There is no obstruction between you and a survivor. So if you spin around looking for them you should see them.
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@Micheal_Myers said:
$1. or $0.99
anything above that isn't worth it IMO.
Plus I'm planning on buying all the DLC in the game... and guess how much that is...
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/514/ZNTCMVSQT2EF.png
So I would love to save some money please...
Here's what I already Bought for a reference:
1) Dead By Daylight [Game]
2) Lullaby Chapter [Free]
3) Ash DLC
4) Halloween Chapter
5) SAW Chapter
6) Freddy Rework Chapter
7) Charity Case
$67.26 on the game so far (Includes The Game Price)
@Micheal_Myers What are you buying the cells for?
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@SenzuDuck because for some reason this game doesn't pip based on winning
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why would you leave with only 150 ping? That's lower than human reaction time.
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@AetherBytes said:
@NuclearBurrito You don't need to be a stealthy killer. People don't just run on the very outskirts of your terror radius, theyll sit and hide when you get near. It's just about if you have enough eyesight in order to see them, and if they do run then it's about being smarter then the survivor. Then again, I never miss a survivor trying to hide from me, so maybe the tactic works for me since I can keep bouncing them till they run into me or fall to me trying to hide.
@AetherBytes only an idiot would try to hide while bleeding right next to the Killer without iron will/no mither.
I could see a healthy survivor trying to immerse they're way out of danger. But if they're injured you don't even need to see them at all (I would know, I'm a spirit main that uses sloppy butcher to abuse this fact). Good survivors will know to just run, and good survivors will try to loop you. Bad survivors don't require much strategy to beat (Proof: burger king myer's and no blink nurse not always getting a 0k).
The point is that if you're breaking chase and it isn't for an edge case scenario or to avoid the obsession then you're using a losing strategy.
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Riddle me this. If this is implemented then if both me (as the Killer) and the final survivor know where the hatch is, and I've just downed the 2nd to last survivor. What's to stop you from going immersed until I pick up the survivor and then run (or walk depending on distance) over to the hatch while I'm hooking him?
Just patrolling the hatch isn't going to work since they don't actually need to hide near it. And I'd never draw you out since the only reason for them to move is me picking up the 3rd survivor, and they wouldn't be stupid enough to run right into my face where I could drop him and hit him.
My only option would be to wait out the bleedout time for the 3rd survivor in order to close the hatch. You wouldn't want that now would you?
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@AetherBytes if you don't chase them then what do you do with the last survivor after a chain of hits?
You aren't a stealth killer. So you can't just expect a survivor to randomly run into you like you can as Myers or Pig. If you want to down someone then you need to win a chase. What's your plan on doing that if you aren't even going to start one?
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@ItsYourBoyGuzma said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/65663/66-of-the-ghost-face-perks-are-#########
Remember how i said the devs dont play their own Games?
These perks are perfect examples
im all ears) will only work for fast actions and has a cooldown?
- Literally useless might as well run nothing LMAO
thrilling tremors)- will only work with stealth killers (like Spirit ,Michael, kinda pig?) and possibly on Billy + nurse
Furtive Chase) - Kinda seems decent for all killers but you'd actually have to find your Obsession.
@ItsYourBoyGuzma spot on with the other 2. But I think you missunderstand what thrilling tremors actually does. It blocks all gens that survivors aren't working on every time you pick up a survivor. That means gen grabs like in the clip but it also means just picking up a downed survivor. That means assuming it's off cooldown it activates after EVERY chase. And like BBQ it shows what gens are being worked on, while at the same time preventing new gens from being worked on while you are busy hooking the survivor you just picked up.
I think that depending on the cooldown it could be meta.