NuclearBurrito
NuclearBurrito
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Also there is this line
"A Killer who sacrifices all 4 Survivors in the trial will earn the Entity's favor"
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I don't see how much clearer the game could have made it at least for survivor's winning.
For killers it never specified the exact numbers. However it DID say you need to stop them from escaping, which if you get less than a 4k you have failed to do.
Then again it also says the survivors need to power 5 generators, which if they escape through the hatch they might not have. And that they need to be sacraficed which mori's aren't (maybe they count I guess)
Point is the supposed game defined wincondition is never even mentioned on the pages labeled "How to win" and "Game goals" or even anywhere else on this fairly detailed tutorial while escaping and killing are given full paragraphs
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Would you look at that. It actually DOES use the term win:
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Btw. When I say the game says the survivors are trying to escape and the killers are trying to sacrafice the survivors this is what I am referring to:
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@thesuicidefox said:
@NuclearBurrito said:
Overwatch and battleright are 2 examples off the top of my head that use performance rather than a binary win/lose to determine ranksWhich is exactly what a pip is, except due to the asymmetrical and random nature of the game it is also the win condition because escaping every game or 4k'ing every game is impossible even if you are really good. Sometimes things happen that are beyond your ability to overcome, eg. bad totem placement. That can cost you kills AND a pip if it's in a bad spot. But it can also almost carry you to get kills/pip if it's in a good spot. Due to this sort of stuff, you can not use purely kills/escapes as a measure of a win or loss.
And for every game you cite that has performance as the measure to rank up instead of a pure win/loss (which a game like Overwatch has clearly defined and you aren't screwed by RNG, both not like in DBD so it's not really comparable in the first place) there are 10 more that rank purely on win/loss.
I know that games that rank based off wins/losses more often than not. But since not all of them do that means ranking up based on something is not proof that it is winning. Especially since the thing that is ACTUALLY stated as winning in the tutorial for the game is something we both agree would be a bad sole measure to rank someone on (which according to you is there to help counterbalance RNG when it isn't based on wincon).
And since it DOES state in the tutorial that you are trying to escape/sacrifice that means I'm not just pulling it out of my ass and "making it up".
And you also said that the game tells you that pipping is your wincondition, so I will ask again. Where does the game say you are supposed to be pipping?
or in otherwords:
"Doesn't change that pip is a win condition as defined by the game." Where can I find the game stating this definition?
Screen shot it and assuming it isn't clearly something being misconstrued then I will admit you are right. In the meantime I'm going to see if the tutorial actually uses the word "win" at any point
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@PigNRun said:
If I use Haunted Ground on Freddy, what would that make me?A spirit main
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@thesuicidefox said:
@Cymer said:
Yet again you miss the point.
I never told you, that I disagree with pipping is the games win condition.THEN DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT GAME MECHANICS.
If you play to your own standards fine, go ahead, I'm not telling you that you have to play for a pip. What I am telling you is that you have no right to complain about ANYTHING that goes against what you consider a win. If you want a 4k, slug away. But don't sit there and complain that survivors let each other bleed out to hatch. Don't complain about perks like DS or Adren that increase a survivor's chance to escape. Don't complain about hatch ANYTHING (especially if you are already slugging). Don't complain about loops. Don't complain about gen rush. Just sit there and SHUT UP because the game should not bend to your imaginary rules.
@Cymer said: Again you are so stuck with your thinking of what is the correct way, the correct terms that you miss OPs question.
Contrary to what you think, or what anyone thinks, there is actually a RIGHT and WRONG way to play a game. The RIGHT way is to play optimally in order to win. The WRONG way is everything else. That's not to say you can't play WRONG if you want to, you have the freedom to do this. But if you do, then you lost the right to criticize the game. Example, if you want to only move pawns in Chess until you are forced to use another piece you are objectively playing the game WRONG because that is a losing strategy. Therefore, you have no right to say that the Knight is overpowered because he can sidestep pawns where other pieces are blocked if another piece is in it's path. To do so suggests that you want the game to bend to your will, instead of the opposite where you adapt to play the game correctly. This goes for ANY game, including video games, and including DBD.
Also there can be multiple RIGHT ways to play a game, but only if those ways result in a win.
Please point to the line in the game that says you are supposed to pip in this game. I can show where it says that the survivors are supposed to escape and where it says that the killers are supposed to sacrifice. But I don't see pip's mentioned anywhere outside of when you are told you got them.
Yes you rank by getting them. But many games have their ranking systems separate from their games wincondition.
Overwatch and battleright are 2 examples off the top of my head that use performance rather than a binary win/lose to determine ranks
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@Poweas said:
@NuclearBurrito said:
@Poweas said:
@NuclearBurrito said:
@Poweas said:
I can't play Spirit because in 20 seconds a gen pops.(totally has to do with spirit and not just all killers in general)
Idk. I do well as Billy since he can keep up with gens. But maybe I chase too much. Unless ruin stays for more then 30 seconds, I get stomped. As Billy I don't even use ruin.
Billy has insane map pressure. Try playing as trapper or huntress or something.
Also not Nurse, she has insane pressure too
It feels wrong that genrushing is such a problem that Spirit can't even keep up with them.
It does. I'm just pointing out that Spirit isn't the only killer with this problem. That obviously doesn't make it ok
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YesPiiFree said:@PhantomMask20763 said:
TAG said:
This list is trash. As far as I'm aware, they're all the same tier as Doctor.
0_0Is that why Survis like flæshlights that much?
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Shattered bloodline
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There are almost no games which ACTUALLY have a significant percentage of cheaters
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@Delfador said:
@NuclearBurrito said:
@Delfador said:
I expect it to drop in 15 minutes, I hope I don't get disappointed
Were you disappointed?
I was
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I really do just think that the Killer should always be STRONGEST in the chase. Meaning that he should never under any circumstances prefer to not be in a chase (unless that would mean having downed you)
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@Delfador said:
I expect it to drop in 15 minutes, I hope I don't get disappointedWere you disappointed?
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@Peasant said:
@Eveline said:
Whoever complains I bet chases last longer against legion than when you play against some other killers. I know it's bad if you are tunneled and bleed out but equip Iron will or just waste killers time a bit while others do gens.I swear it's almost as if people don't know that Legion can't see scratch marks during Feral Frenzy.
I've taken full advantage of this in a 1v1 chase situation (he had 3ked and knew where I was). I basically hopped through a window, he frenzied to get through it, and then I pallet stunned him right before he was about to actually hit me canceling frenzy. From there he had only a few seconds of frenzy at a time and I had enough distance for force him to use it at bad times or let me get far enough to lose him.
I eventually got to the hatch and won that game
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@The_Crusader said:
NuclearBurrito said:@The_Crusader said:
Why not just go back to the idea about him stalking to cross pallets?
I'd also still like to see the other legion members be more than just skins. I.e. Frank needs X amount of stalk to jump a pallet but moves at 115%, Julie needs a lower amount of stalk but moves at 110% to compensate.
If you are talking about Shads rework then that falls under the "too different to really be the same killer" category.
If you just mean the shape but with a different t3 effect and significantly different charge speed and stalk MS then maybe
I mean the prototype they showed on the dev stream from when Legion was still in development.
They had that working them changed it because they wanted him to be able to vault pallets at any time. It does sound like Myers but maybe a drastc change is needed due to how much people seem to hate the current Legion.
Is this stream recorded anywhere? I kinda want to see it
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@The_Crusader said:
Why not just go back to the idea about him stalking to cross pallets?I'd also still like to see the other legion members be more than just skins. I.e. Frank needs X amount of stalk to jump a pallet but moves at 115%, Julie needs a lower amount of stalk but moves at 110% to compensate.
If you are talking about Shads rework then that falls under the "too different to really be the same killer" category.
If you just mean the shape but with a different t3 effect and significantly different charge speed and stalk MS then maybe
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@Poweas said:
@NuclearBurrito said:
@Poweas said:
I can't play Spirit because in 20 seconds a gen pops.(totally has to do with spirit and not just all killers in general)
Idk. I do well as Billy since he can keep up with gens. But maybe I chase too much. Unless ruin stays for more then 30 seconds, I get stomped. As Billy I don't even use ruin.
Billy has insane map pressure. Try playing as trapper or huntress or something.
Also not Nurse, she has insane pressure too
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The reason why current legion sucks is because all of the other killers have either both 115% AND a useful power (legions is only enough to counteract not being 115, but isn't strong enough to be equivalent to that plus additional power on top of that) or have a slower movement speed with a power that is insanely good in a chase
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@Tucking_Friggered said:
@NuclearBurrito said:
@Tucking_Friggered said:
@NuclearBurrito said:
Tucking_Friggered said:Let me simplify this for some of our community that has trouble understanding what a workable "rework" is. If your idea for a rework boiled down has the killer take more time, work, or gaming finesse to down a survivor than a simple M1 click and bloodlust your rework is complete garbage. Does this apply?
I guess Nurse, Huntress and spirit are garbage then
I guess your ability to cognitively understand the difference is lacking. Can they down survivors faster than running around with M1 and bloodlust? Are they complicated in application?
Nurse, Huntress and Spirit both take more finesse than basic 115% killers.
To answer your new question both all 3 of those classes and these reworks can down survivors faster than M1 + Bloodlust
Then perhaps you have workable reworks. The only caveat would be if to do so requires level of play only a handful of people can pull off. Meaning as example, Legion can down faster than m1 and Bloodlust but would be completely blind doing so and required you to hear the survivor and guess where they are. That level of complication would not be workable as 99% of the player base would be completely ineffective in playing it. It's a grey area but while grey it is recognizable.
Ok but I don't think that will be a problem here. Since frenzy is considered one of the easiest ways to get a hit.
When I say that legion can down faster than a powerless 115% killer I mean this:
First hit: 132% (or 113.2% faster than the the downing speed of a 115% killer)
Second hit: 110% (or 33% slower than the downing speed of a 115% killer)
This is a total time of a bit faster than going 115% for both hitsGiven these reworks proper use of their power can get it to be even faster, however standard brute force use of the power will eventually work faster than bloodlust would
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@laKUKA said:
LEGION can never activate NOED because we will instantly disconnect at the start of the game!Sorry! is for our health!
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lul
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@Poweas said:
I can't play Spirit because in 20 seconds a gen pops.(totally has to do with spirit and not just all killers in general)
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Rework A has the fast first hit and if you go after someone else you can get both hits quickly (and then go back for the 2nd guy for a very high average downs per second)
Rework B is 115%
Rework C is effectively 120% while DW is applied which isn't particularly complicated to do
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@Tucking_Friggered said:
@NuclearBurrito said:
Tucking_Friggered said:Let me simplify this for some of our community that has trouble understanding what a workable "rework" is. If your idea for a rework boiled down has the killer take more time, work, or gaming finesse to down a survivor than a simple M1 click and bloodlust your rework is complete garbage. Does this apply?
I guess Nurse, Huntress and spirit are garbage then
I guess your ability to cognitively understand the difference is lacking. Can they down survivors faster than running around with M1 and bloodlust? Are they complicated in application?
Nurse, Huntress and Spirit both take more finesse than basic 115% killers.
To answer your new question both all 3 of those classes and these reworks can down survivors faster than M1 + Bloodlust
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I guess Nurse, Huntress and spirit are garbage thenTucking_Friggered said:Let me simplify this for some of our community that has trouble understanding what a workable "rework" is. If your idea for a rework boiled down has the killer take more time, work, or gaming finesse to down a survivor than a simple M1 click and bloodlust your rework is complete garbage. Does this apply?
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Yeah. C being the best of these seems to be the trend I'm seeingShad03 said:As long as you aren't suggesting a nerf then it's all fun and games. I made my own rework idea that actually makes the Legion much more complicated but I had hoped more fun as well. Eh, if you want I can post it, if not I will let you know which rework I would choose from the ones you offered:
Rework C. This one sounds the most worthwhile.
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What's the second? Iridescent button?powerbats said:The real easiest solution to fixing Legion is to delete him and rebuild from scratch. 😁
But in seriousness a lot of his problems come from the exploiting and also 2 addons being brokenly op but if you change things it's a question of how do you do it without breaking him worse in either direction.
Anyways all 3 of these reworks fix Frank's and the exploitability.
A changes the drain system to make it harder to exploit while Frank's would make it go from 5->4 instead of 4->3 hits
B and C both completely remove anything to exploit and would already require reworking Frank's -
Also people forget. Coordination vs uncoordinated randoms isn't a balance issue. It's a skill gap. As in an uncoordinated team failing is doing so because they are uncoordinated so learn to coordinate dammit, you obviously can't do that now because players can't communicate, but that is a solvable problem.
The fact that high ranked survivors escape more than low ranked survivors just means to me that survivors have a higher skill gap than killers, the gap itself is 100% fine, that's just the room you have to grow and is a sign of a game that requires skill which is a good thing. The fact that it isn't the same for the killers is a bit of a problem but again, can be solved with changes (I'm not high rank so I'm not the best person to ask about that particular kind of change)
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@Tiersis said:
Always assume SWF groups are on voice, and communicating your location. I think then, it would be fair, that if you can see one SWF group member, you should get Aura locations of all other SWF group members. This seems fair and balanced. Turnabout being fair play and all. Solo players would be unaffected as their location would not be shared.Anything that explicitly re-balances the game for the immediate presense of SWF would need to be in a separate lobby. Because balance is not in isolation and that kind of aura reading effects EVERYONE in the game and not just the SWF players, it influences what perks you would take, it effects any solo's qued alongside SWF ect ect ect.
Hence why the solution is to bring the Solo's potential power up to the same level as SWF by just giving them VC and potentially other information that SWF would have anyways. And then we can just buff killers around the board to compensate
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@HatCreature said:
@The_Crusader said:
I'd rather have a complete rework that takes the idea of multiple people into account. It was a real lost opportunity.You should check this out, I think as far as mimicing a Survivor this is as manageable as that idea can get. A lot of people just think you can look like a Survivor but in all honesty the results from that isn't as strong as it sounds so this idea turns it on it's head with something realistic.
I've never really been a fan of that concept. I mean it's alright, but it just doesn't really appeal to me.
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Ok so I do agree that Legion is #########. But he's not Freddy tier guys.
For a second lets ignore deep wound and pretend that Frenzy cannot down people every and just injures.
So basically Frenzy is: Decent tracking (hardly the strongest thing he has but it's there). One of the few tracking methods that freely gives you the location of survivors that are close enough to get to before they can move
and more importantly
Practically free injure: Everyone knows that legion gets the first hit easy and the second hit hard. However people then go on to act like that doesn't have uses in of itself.
Basically if everyone is injured then that is the equivalent of having everyone being exposed. While that isn't enough to make up for practically not having a power it is enough to make up for 5% MS. This is because only having to hit them once means a chase takes half as long (or 100% shorter) while an extra 5% MS is only 50% less chase time, or in other words in theory the legion should finish chases 50% faster than a 115% killer who isn't using their power. Of course Legion isn't quite that efficient as they need to hit them with frenzy, which while very fast is not instant. And even if he didn't there is the fact that other killers have that AND a useful power... with one exception: Freddy's power is negative utility
Legions power is many things, but negative utility is not one of them, he's at least better than an M1 115% killer with no power. And that hypothetical killer is better than Freddy
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@Salty_Pearl said:
@NuclearBurrito said:
@HatCreature said:
@NuclearBurrito said:
I do think an endgame Legion is plausible. However I don't think NOED is the way to go about it.Instead I would recommend using Remember me since the Legion gets way more hits in than the average killer making him great at getting tokens for it (also for STBFL but that's less useful for Legion)
I'd use Remember me, Blood warden, Mutter and Sloppy butcher/Bloodhound
Normally I'd use thanatiphobia but this is an endgame build so I'll make an exception
Yeah I was thinking STBFL because I met this one Legion who did really good with it, it was in Lery's though so small spaces are good for that. He didn't have NOED but he was using the double cooldown and that perk and it was fine for him. He told me he'd recommend it for close encounters, thought this buiild would compliment that playstyle.
Remember Me is probably one of the best perks for Legion, that alone is great for Endgame, I'd use Blood Warden but I don't have it yet.
Ah. I don't see STBFL being too good on Legion since he doesn't have issues with attack speed given how frenzy works
Does STBFL affect Feral Frenzy?
Probably. But if it does it's hitting on diminishing returns
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@TrAiNwReCk said:
Testing 1 2 3Read you loud and clear
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@HatCreature said:
@NuclearBurrito said:
I do think an endgame Legion is plausible. However I don't think NOED is the way to go about it.Instead I would recommend using Remember me since the Legion gets way more hits in than the average killer making him great at getting tokens for it (also for STBFL but that's less useful for Legion)
I'd use Remember me, Blood warden, Mutter and Sloppy butcher/Bloodhound
Normally I'd use thanatiphobia but this is an endgame build so I'll make an exception
Yeah I was thinking STBFL because I met this one Legion who did really good with it, it was in Lery's though so small spaces are good for that. He didn't have NOED but he was using the double cooldown and that perk and it was fine for him. He told me he'd recommend it for close encounters, thought this buiild would compliment that playstyle.
Remember Me is probably one of the best perks for Legion, that alone is great for Endgame, I'd use Blood Warden but I don't have it yet.
Ah. I don't see STBFL being too good on Legion since he doesn't have issues with attack speed given how frenzy works
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@powerbats said:
@NuclearBurrito said:
Also could you define toxic killer real quick. I want to make sure of somethingThose are the ones that simply tunnel one person to the exclusion of all else even when someone injured is in front of them. The ones that basically hard camp at 5 gens and chain smack someone on the hook because they got outplayed.
That's the types I think of as toxic, if they've just hooked someone and someone runs in and unhooks in front of them and they rehook the person that's not toxic. That was just a stupid unhook move and I always go for the unhooker in that case.
As for the earlier part about killing 3 that may have been a group of potatoes which we all know are way to common. So the killer destroying 3 really quickly isn't always skill but just being fed a bunch of idiots.
You are missing the point. Skill is measured relatively. The Killer has shown himself to be better than at least 3 of the 4 survivors. However since part of a survivors gameplay is teamwork that means having the 3 dying is a count against the 4th survivor. Does that mean he is worse than the killer? No, but he should have to prove that he isn't. The killer had to work to get to that point for sure, even potato survivors need to be found and chased short of griefing, and in that situation the survivors aren't getting even those 2 gens.
Thus the remaining survivor needs to prove that he is significantly better than the killer and thus the rest of the team. Surviving for that long is easy, just hop in a locker and avoid the generators since the Killer is approaching those all the time. Going for the hatch needs to have risk so that the survivor needs to overcome it by mechanical skill or strategy rather than just luck.
Yes the killer should have to work too, but he for sure already has at least a little, if the killer is a potato along with the survivors then he wouldn't put up too big of a fight assuming the 1v1 endgame is designed correctly.
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I do think an endgame Legion is plausible. However I don't think NOED is the way to go about it.
Instead I would recommend using Remember me since the Legion gets way more hits in than the average killer making him great at getting tokens for it (also for STBFL but that's less useful for Legion)
I'd use Remember me, Blood warden, Mutter and Sloppy butcher/Bloodhound
Normally I'd use thanatiphobia but this is an endgame build so I'll make an exception
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Also could you define toxic killer real quick. I want to make sure of something
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@powerbats said:
@NuclearBurrito said:
yes but the survivors aren't escaping through the hatch together, rather only a single person is escaping. And there is no guarantee that they actually did any of the gens. No finding the hatch is not itself challenging enough to say it isn't free anymore than having to unwrap a gift makes it not free.
My point is that it's not a free escape, something that has to be worked towards isn't free and the one getting the hatch could be the one doing nothing sure.
But the one doing nothing the entire match is a legitimate strategy just as slugging is while i dislike both I do understand them. As a killer i'll only slug to find that person doing absolutely nothing or for the adept and for toxic jerks.
As a survivor I'm not giving the killer a freebie for slugging, you want that 4k earn it, if you're camping i'm not coming for the save. I'll do totems, try and may'be do gens depending on where they're at and look for hatch while at it.
If you're patrolling depending on where you're at I'll try and go for a save and get the person up at least but i'm still not giving you any freebies.
For the person doing nothing the entire match and i mean I know for a fact they're doing nothing not the assumption because they don't get caught either. I'll give myself up to the killer if the killer wasn't a toxic douchebag or make them chase me.
I'll struggle on the hook so thy know to go look for the douchebag and they've got time for it but if they're a toxic killer I'll suicide.
Yes of course. You should never give freebie wins to the other side, that's just a bad idea.
However while players aren't exactly bad people for doing cheap strategy's like hatch camping and slugging that doesn't mean we should encourage it when we can avoid it.
The existence of the hatch means that in 9/10 games you almost have to slug if you want to 4k when you are at the point where you could get a 3k.
Am I saying that you should always 4k every 3k? Of course not, if I was I would want an outright removal with no replacement. Hell if I REALLY wanted a 4k every game then I would have 1v1's instantly reveal the last survivor or something.
Instead I just want to rework the hatch to be more of a final test rather than a pity escape.
The killer just proved himself as competent when he killed 3 people, can you (the survivor) prove yourself to be better than them? That kind of mentality means the hatch needs to be hard to use, not something you can just walk up to and hop into mid chase without any major counterplay.
And since the only thing the killer can do about it is slug or hope he gets lucky (because admit it, 2 gens is something you are going to expect to be done against all but the best killers or the worst survivors) that means that 3rd survivor is going to be sitting there for the entire process, and if we just let him DC then we are back to square 1.
You can argue all day about HOW killer sided the hatch should be, but anything more survivor sided than a 50/50 (which is already pushing it) just isn't a good system when the goal is to let a good survivor win despite a bad team
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@powerbats said:
@TrAiNwReCk said:
All that non sense aside.
- 5 generators need to be done
- And 1 key
For all survivors to use the hatch.
The survivors get owned and get less than 5 gens done.
Awe At Least 1 Survivor Should Get To Escape, Even Though They Did Not Do What Is Required To Escape As A Team
The last survivor alive doesn't even have to touch a gen. The other 3 survivors did at least the 2 gens, the useless survivor doing nothing the whole game gets the hatch = FREE
You take things so literal it's hilarious. I gave simple to the point illustration how you are wrong and to drowned us all in a wall of text you generalize everything you say ONLY to try and feel like you're right, but you be WRONG
5 gens need to be done and a key, that means if all 5 gens get done and they escape with a key that means you completely failed in your objective.
If you let them do 5 gens and find the hatch and all 4 get out through it and yet you want to blame the survivors because you failed that game.
Now if you don't get all 4 then you obviously didn't own them, and the survivors aren't a team since each is an individual working to get out.
Now they did in fact do enough of their objective to get out, 1 person made it out if they in fact actually get the hatch.
**The very definition of the term free.
adjective 1. not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes.
adverb 1. without cost or payment.**
From the Wiki.
The Black Lock, also known and commonly referred to as the "Hatch", is one of the two potential ways for Survivors to escape a trial in Dead by Daylight
The Hatch will become visible ("spawn") whenever the number of fully repaired Generators IconHelpLoading generators.png exceeds the number of living Survivors by 1:
4 Survivors remaining: 5 repaired Generators / Exit Gates are powered
3 Survivors remaining: 4 repaired Generators / 1 Generator left
2 Survivors remaining: 3 repaired Generators / 2 Generators left
1 Survivor remaining: 2 repaired Generators / 3 Generators leftSo since the survivors have together done enough to meet the minimum objectives that means the hatch isn't a free escape.
yes but the survivors aren't escaping through the hatch together, rather only a single person is escaping. And there is no guarantee that they actually did any of the gens. No finding the hatch is not itself challenging enough to say it isn't free anymore than having to unwrap a gift makes it not free.
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Can we just remove all perks please? Thank you bye
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@flojoe said:
I commented because I'm bored.KK.
If hypothetically we reworked the lore into something you like more (I don't care what. Don't bother explaining it) THEN would any of these reworks help the legions design in your opinion?
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@flojoe said:
Well, I don't really know what to do with Legion. I dislike the design, the lore - it's all just meh to me. The only positive thing to come out of Legion was Discordance imo, that's the only reason I leveled them up. Tbh, I can't really be bothered to think about any changes that are worthwhile. I think the Legion is just a boring design and I couldn't care less.If you don't care then why are you commenting on this thread about caring about the legion and trying to make him more interesting to play as/against
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@flojoe said:
I'd suggest:
Remove the Legion entirely. Such a bland, boring killer.Bad suggestion. Removing content is the last resort and we haven't reached that point yet. Instead identify why he is bland and figure out the minimum number of changes needed to fix it
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@The_Crusader said:
NuclearBurrito said:@The_Crusader said:
I'd rather have a complete rework that takes the idea of multiple people into account. It was a real lost opportunity.
That would be an incomparable killer. Outside the scope of what these reworks are trying to accomplish
I thought that's the point? You can tinker with Legion a little bit right now but all of the problems remain.
The vaulting pallets build simply doesn't work.
Why not? Nurse exists, Hag exists, Huntress bypasses them entirely. Something is only fundamentally problematic if it is mathematically impossible to tone down, which in this case it is fairly straightforward to tone down or otherwise counterbalance.
And in all 3 reworks using it to vault pallets has a draw back
A makes it impractical to down this way
B makes it come at a cost giving it risk
C makes it literally impossible to down this way -
Should probably point out that all 3 of these are intended to overall be more powerful than the current legion because that legion is weak.
For A the increased downing potential outweighs the other nerfs given
For B the massive chase potential is worth giving up everything else
For C the buffed stalling power lets him accomplish his intended purpose effectively enough that his lackluster downing is less problematic (and it even gives SOME degree of downing potential still) -
@HatCreature Basically Rework C is a debuff that gets worse the longer you don't touch it. At max effect it is comparable to the clown intoxication except it lasts longer and has a different activation method.
I personally like Rework A the most, think Rework C has the most potential and put Rework B as more of an option for those who want a full on rework as it is the only one that alters the actual purpose of the power
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@The_Crusader said:
I'd rather have a complete rework that takes the idea of multiple people into account. It was a real lost opportunity.That would be an incomparable killer. Outside the scope of what these reworks are trying to accomplish
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Rework C would completely remove the downing potential of DW and would also stay until healed (possibly for the rest of the game)