NekoTorvic
NekoTorvic
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Sometimes he'll slide off things almost half into your screen and sometimes he'll hit things that arent even a fifth into your screen its ridiculously inconsistent and makes him a chore to play...its a shame cuz he was the mot fun killer for me.
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This is the reason why I never, ever, ever respect a person jumping in a locker after getting unhooked. At worst I eat a DS and they are out of it for good, at best they were either bluffing or they miss it. A lot of console players miss their DS skillcheck because of the frames. So crossplay has helped on that a little bit.
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Or you smack him in the face with a pallet after you fake leaving the pallet like you can do against most other killers.. thats a valid option..
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Just make it so that it only applies exposed to the survivors that you've already hooked at least once, and for each survivor hooked you get 1% extra speed when the gens are powered. It keeps its same effect but it will never reward you again for being completely useless throughout the match. It would even reward you for going after multiple people.
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Usually when I give up as killer I either wait for them to power the gates to open them and have them leave, or I will just go after one person, if I kill them, maybe the game is not over or maybe I just get the one kill. If I don't, it doesn't matter, I was gonna lose anyways.
If a survivor gives up after something unfair done by a teammate I leave them be, so long as I'm in a decent position in the match.
I kinda wish killers could force open the gates after like 3 gens or something...survivors should get extra points for the escape and the killer can just move on. Sometimes you're just not in the mood to put in all the effort necessary to come back from 3 gens popping quick...
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Fair enough. Thx for the input everyone! ^_^
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Do you think itd be just as powerful a tracking ability if it were as I described and not the perk lighting up? Cuz to my knowledge the perk lighting up is what makes it so precise and powerful. The entity noises are not as precise, it would just give you a rough idea of where survivors are. But I don't use whispers much, so if you think it'd still be too powerful I'd take your word on it.
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If I see there's no DS i will try to not tunnel, but I will have no compunction about doing so if I feel gens are going too fast. In general I try not to tunnel unless gens are going too fast and I need someone out.
This is a problem with game design. It's not necessarily that killers are too weak, but that survivor's objective is too menial and too quick for how easy it is. Chases, in a lot of cases, are just not worth it.
But I think we should tackle this issue by rewarding killers for chasing other people rather than punishing them for tunneling (mind you the punishment should still exist). Because if we ONLY focus on punishing killers for these actions it creates resentment and it makes the roll horrible to play.
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My personal contention with this game is that when a killer is beat by quick gens, all survivors needed to do was hold M1. Sure you can point at the killer and say they made a mistake here or there, but ultimately it boils down to survivors held 1 button while the killer made mistakes actually trying to outplay an opponent with a fairly substantial amount of resources to stop the killer.
When I win as survivor it barely feels like I outplay the killer and when I play killer in a match where gens fly even though I have fast chases, it doesn't feel like the survivors outplayed me. And it's very frustrating to feel you have to outplay people consistently so quickly over and over again, when the other side is sitting there holding a button and sometimes getting "are you awake" checks. SWF just exacerbates the problem because killers owe a lot of their momentum and pressure to lack of coordination between survivors.
I don't even know if the speed at which things can go down is even the real problem...In Overwatch rounds can sometimes be finished in like 2 minutes or less if a team just wipes the other... but the winning team needed to majorly outplay the other. I believe this is actually the reason why you see less posts about killers wiping the floor with survivors in 3 minutes. The killer needed to individually outplay every survivor in the match while managing them all in order to achieve this. Even so, I wouldn't be opposed to a killer's ability to down a team quickly to be toned down if the survivor's objective is made slower.
However, I would much prefer the survivor's objective to be made less safe (meaning they are more likely to interact with the killer), and more difficult (meaning they'd need to put in more effort for their win instead of just holding M1), instead of just making their objective take longer.
It would be a massively different experience if the survivor's objective required them to do something more demanding under pressure. Right now the only thing that is demanding in any way is chases, and even then survivors want killers that give them harder chases to be nerfed...cuz having the easier main objective isn't enough, they need the easier chases too...
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So camping Bubba turns killer gameplay into survivor gameplay, eh?
Lemme explain:
They had one or two chases in the match, stood in one place, maybe holding a button and interacting with no one, made the other side's game a bore/frustrating and then out perked the survivors in the end.
Interesting how that works...
In all seriousness though, there should be some sort of action speed buff related to hook proximity under certain conditions, so survivors can finish gens quicker if a teammate gets hard facecamped like that. Maybe if the killer refuses to leave the hooked person the buff gets faster and totems get their aura revealed too. It will give time to do gens and do bones.
I like NOED as an andgame boost. it can be especially devastating when you're actually good and pressure survivors during the match. But its waaaay too passive. I think NOED should apply exposed only to survivors you've hooked throughout the match and for every survivor hooked you get 1% bonus speed at the end for a total of 4%. That way you can't just be useless all game and then expect NOED to help secure kills at the end, but it still remains a high risk, high reward hex totem that gives you a power boost at the end.
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I can have 20 second chases and bother every survivor in the match and they still manage to push gens insanely quick with some coordination (especially SWF). Tunneling is a conscious decision I make whenever I feel the gens are going to fast and the amount of effort I would have to put into the match to recover from it would greatly surpass anything the survivors had needed to do or will need to do.
Why should I put in so much effort to try and outplay 4 people after they've M1-ed on a thing for a few seconds even though every time they've needed to actually interact with me they've lost fast?
So I simply say "######### it, i'll try and get at least one out quick. If it works I might get one less player to worry about which is more manageable, if it doesn't it wasnt gonna work anyways and at least I didnt have to put in as much effort trying to manage four survivors" It's literally a desperation play. Its almost throwing the towel. If I could just open the gates after a certain number of gens have been done, i'd probably take that and move on to the next match...
Its not me trying to be an arsehole, its me trying to compensate for the fact that the objective survivors are given is menial and gets completed too fast.
Whenever a match is hard but the gens are not terribly quick, I do not tunnel, I give everyone chases, sometimes I even entertain longer chases to see if I can outplay a specific player, the game is much more fun this way, I don't particularly enjoy camping or tunneling, it's a response to the bad objective design.
Im looking forward to the early game thing the devs are going to do, maybe that will be enough for killer players to not feel the need to do this kind of stuff out of necessity, and when we only have the malicious campers and tunnelers, then we can give survivors extra tools to deal with them.
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Currently survivor objective is to hold M1 on a thing for 80 seconds or less 5 times while sometimes you get a "are you awake" check.
I think this not only makes the objective too menial, it also makes very fast losses as killer completely meaningless because you didn't even get outplayed, the survivors just held a button.
I think the idea of gathering up something in order to to be able to repair gens would be pretty good. The idea of filling them with gas or something, because it would require survivors to move around the map and potentially interact with the killer. It will promote stealth as well since it would be advantageous for survivors not to be found by the killer when theyre moving around looking for things. it could also open up the game for other mechanics for survivors to aid them with stealth or otherwise interact with this period in the match where they have to move around and evade the killer.
Survivors would need to display more knowledge of the map in order to find the things they need to start repairing gens, cuz they'll have to know where theyre likely to spawn, they would be much more likely to interact with the killer, they will be required to do something other than sitting and holding M1. Its just a pretty decent idea...
I do think that genrush is a failure of game design rather than malice from the survivor team. Like many other people said, what else are they supposed to do while they wait to be chased by you?
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I'd say 10 to 12 minutes is probably ideal. 8 or 7 minutes is starts way too quick and frustrating, and 15+ minutes feels like a drag.
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It was nice to be able to try out the killers, bring double BPS for everyone every match, be able to commit to chases to see if i can outplay the survivor, not tunnel, be able to walk across the entire map instead of strategically limiting myself to one area, give last survivor hatch, and overall just try to have fun.
It was obviously bad when survivors were literally new and didn't even know where to run, but when it was just chill survivors who at least knew what pallets and windows were it was just fun to have some time and not feel like if i make one mistake the game's over..
It's interesting because not much has changed really, after they removed mmr. Sure, better survivors are better at chases, but if you're a good killer you need to be getting chases over with in less than 20 seconds anyways...the only thing that does change is how quickly gens go. How great...the difference between chill fun and sweaty frustration for killer is survivors holding M1 a bit more. I honestly think this is my biggest issue with the game at the moment.
Back to only using about 30% of the killer roster, sweaty perks and being as much of a dick as possible to balance out insane gen speeds at higher level...
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I use that perk quite a lot because I think this game is starved for mechanics that allow special actions with their own dedicated animations. I'd say the cooldown needs to be shorter or the perk should be base kit. I honestly wouldn't mind survivors having more mechanics they can use by default.
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"The point of chases with her aren't necessarily to escape, but to waste as much of her time as possible."
This should be true of any killer and it is true of any killer with strong 1v1. Unfortunately, some people believe if you're not guaranteed to be able to run a killer indefinitely with relative ease because pallets, then the killer has no counter play.
On the topic of Spirit, you can also hear her footsteps as she's phasing if you're paying attention, which you should because it will help you.
I don't think you should hear her phasing noise when in TR but i think her shards should light up just a little more obviously. That way she still has the chase fake out mind game where she can pretend to chase someone then maybe grab someone off a gen that thought she was not onto them. Also it will be subtle enough that survivors will need to pay attention to what the killer is doing.
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His shots are predictive because it's a 40m/s needle projectile. The fact you can do it means you're skilled at it, on account of your FPS experience, it does not mean it's easy. Unless we wanna go over semantics of what makes something easy.
In order to shoot his gun effectively, you don't have a crosshair unless you add one externally, which is not intended or a feature of the game, this means that you need to have a good notion of where the tip of the iron sights is gonna be when you aim the weapon, depending on the scenario you must be accurate with this or else you won't have time to correct it after you've aimed. After aiming down you have to very quickly adjust for any errors. You also have to account for survivors movements and the speed of the projectile. So even if you are used to playing this sort of thing, i would argue it's still a skillful sequence of interlinked actions and predictions that have to be performed right.
I agree, spamming ADS is brain dead, but lets play the numbers of how this works so you see how ineffective is if the DS player has an interest in playing the game to win. You gain on survivors at 0.4 m/s, lets just say a survivor is making your shot difficult and you decide not to shoot and just spam ADS to get them to wiggle. It would take you 37.5s to close a 15m gap if they just run in a straight line. Every time you ads which takes 0.15s so 0.30s to raise and lower your gun. During those 0.30 seconds you move at 3.3m/s, which means survivors gain almost a quarter of a meter in distance (0.21m) . So every time you spam ADS you lose about half the distance you'd otherwise have gained on them per second. This is obviously if they run in a straight line, but it gives you a notion of the slow catching up we're dealing with. However, you're spamming ADS, so they're wiggling and moving erratically. If you were a 115% killer this distance lost is negligible, but as a 110% killer, this means that even wiggling you catch up very slowly. I've seen DS who want prove the "effectiveness" of the ADS spam, catch up to survivors at like 10 or so meters away in no less than 15 seconds, unless the survivor really messes up their pathing. Now imagine that done to catch up for 2 health states, plus wiping, plus hooking, plus patrolling at 110%. You will lose the game before you can get your 4th hook maybe even less.
Now in real life where DS players actually understand this and play to win the game, then they have to go for specific shots. These shots, if a survivor is not out positioned can be anticipated and countered. I've done it, I've seen it done. And this is where the bulk of DS's mid chase counter play is.
I do know about aiming at their hitbox instead of the character model. What I argue is that the projectile's hitbox is still precise enough that this is a negligible thing when survivors know what they're doing. It is a bit of jank that's in the DS's favour instead of the survivor's, but aside from last second shots at some loops and corners I don't think it's that impactful, at least not in the counter play argument.
If you know where the killer has been you can predict where they're roughly at. Killers can catch you by surprise, but you can tell when it's generally safe or not to go for certain things. As soon as you hear his heart beat which is 100% always consistent at 16 meters if they're using M&A you can use the corn to block LoS, hide from him so he doesn't see you or just make it hard for him to shoot before you get to a loop. However I will say this, I don't like maps that have massive dead zones like that. Even if they're not full of pallets, at least the odd rock or tree is necessary to have more tools against ranged killers.
Let us remember that with a 24m TR, it takes the DS 15 seconds to catch up to MAX harpoon range if the survivor just holds W as soon as they hear his TR. So it takes him 15 seconds to catch up 6 meters. Most DS will not go for a 18m shot because it's risky and inconsistent so usually they will catch up way more and spend longer doing it. A bigger TR will break this killer. Spine chill which is a pretty ubiquitous perk helps a lot against him, but knowing and respecting the fact that this partial stealth is part of his kit is the most important thing to prevent being caught by surprise. I have only ever been caught by surprise against a DS one time and it was my error cuz i was playing on windowed mode at like half normal size, and when i saw the killer from a distance I thought it was someone else, so I didn't expect the DS and was caught out positioned.
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@[Deleted User] said:
His free zoning is a problem, all he would need is no insta ADS. Like, make him take time to aim like the Huntress but shorter due to a lack of range and he'd be fun to play against imo.
For everyone saying "Just break LoS" good luck doing that in the open against a Killer with 8-16m TR. Most Slingers run Monitor so getting caught in the open is common but if he they made him take time to ADS he'd be very balanced and very fun/skillful.
Slowing his insta ADS will do nothing to help his power be more reactive. The only thing it will do is make loops massively in favor of survivors against a 110% killer who is supposed to rely of their power to cut loops, since he will not be able to compete against janky survivor movements dodging his shot every time they see him raise his gun. His shots are predictive towards survivor movements and survivors must predict his shots.
His needle is not the same as Huntress's minivans. He raises his weapon and lets say takes 0.5 seconds doing so, lets even add a cute little sound queue to it so survivors don't have to be bothered even looking at the killer to know what he is doing. Now what? Do you know when he's gonna shoot? No you dont. Can you react to it? No you can't if you're anything less than max range you have 0 chance to react to it. So what can you do? You can still try to predict when he's gonna shoot, and you're gonna move side to side the exact same thing you can do now, except you'd be given this information instead of having to use game knowledge to predict it. So it's kind of like Huntress (way to make the killers into an indistinct blob btw), EXCEPT for one small detail. Huntress throws minivans so you actually need to move side to side and you lose a lot of distance on her. Deathslinger shoots a needle. which means you barely need to TAP A or D to dodge his shots, which I have seen with my own eyes both in game and watching people play, makes you lose a negligible amount of distance. So essentially what this is asking is for the killer to be made useless at loops and for the killer gameplay to be insanely harder and predictive and for survivor gameplay to be made brain dead against him because they can hold W and tap A and D while getting fed info about what the killer is gonna do by the game at all times.
"good luck doing that in the open against a Killer" This is extremely baffling to me. So you, as a survivor, don't think it's your responsibility to pay attention to where you're positioned? You don't think that once you know there's a Deathslinger in the match, you have to be extremely vigilant and have an escape route with LoS breakers? You don't think that even before you know it's Deathslinger you have to pay attention to see if maybe it's a stealth killer of Deathslinger? It is 100% your responsibility as a survivor to not get caught in the open and to be vigilant of the killer.
"if he they made him take time to ADS he'd be very balanced and very fun/skillful." I've already explained why that is untrue. making him take time to ADS will make survivor gameplay braindead against him, it will make him stupid hard to use for no good reason and it won't solve the supposed problem survivors complain about, he is already skillful because hitting his shots is not easy or free because of the janky movement survivors have, and whether or not he is fun shouldn't be part of the conversation because it's subjective, I find him fun to play and vs as he is because he is harder.
I will say the ONE thing i think Deathslinger could have to limit him a bit. H e could have an action cooldown of about 0.5 seconds after ADSing. no slowdown or anything, he just can't aim again, M1, kick, vault, grab or open a locker for 0.5 after he puts down the gun. That way it punishes ADS spam, and it gives survivors a time frame where they know he can't do anything after he didn't commit to his power.
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Never have I ever seen a group of people trying to argue about what is or isn't "fun" as if it were an objective measurable thing as with the DBD community.
If you want to argue counter play, sure, it's already been argued to hell, and to be honest it's getting extremely tiresome because while it's extremely easy to just cry "no counter play" it takes paragraphs or pages to actually articulate what the counter play actually is and the fact that you can't pull it off is not a problem with the game, it's a problem with the player.
But if you're arguing for "fun" the you're arguing for yourself and maybe other people who explicitly agree with you.
I find killers like Deathslinger, Spirit and Pyramid Head to be way more fun to play against because being chased by them is waaay more challenging. Because instead of being spoon fed information by the game like the killer is some sort of NPC, you actually have to understand the mind of a player playing these killers and move to counter them accordingly. It requires you to pay attention to way more stuff than the usual useless, easily bullied M1 killer, or just the killer that gives you info about when he's gonna attack, move, have his power, waste his power, wiff an attack, do his taxes and have a nap.
Whether or not I find them fun is a personal subjective argument tho, and has 0 to do with whether or not they have counters. Them having counters is an objective argument about the mechanics of the game and what players can do with it.
Their counters are hard and limited but they're there, people replying to this post have already given examples, there have been several posts in the past few weeks about it, and the explanation for those counters gets ignored every single time. If you can't pull off the counters, then get better and learn to pull them off. If you can't learn to counter them to save your life, then accept that there is 1 killer out of 20 that is massively strong against you and try to play around it, instead of crying about it until every killer is turned into this samey blob that is played against the same, that requires half a brain cell to counter because they just tell you everything they're gonna do 20 seconds in advance and are just destroyed by the oh so demanding and skillful mechanic of going around some boxes and then pressing space.
Whatever happens tho this conversation is old and energy consuming. We'll have to see what the devs consider the right way to go about things if and when they make changes.
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I like the style of the new auras. I can agree it looks les gamey and more immersive. However they are way harder to see i more situations, they also are worse to see for peope with vision issues. I think they have a good thing going with the style but they should make them easier to see IMO.
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He's probably a strong B tier killer.
People say he's really strong in chase, and while that is true, he still has to go through a lot of stall. Find survivor, catch up to survivor until he can take a shot, he gains on a survivor at 0.4 m/s so unless he can cut survivors off it can take him some time to catch up until he can take a decent shot. Takes him 0.15s to ADS, 0.5s after shooting before he can do anything, 6.8s to reel in from max range, 3 seconds to wipe his weapon (unless STBFL), then 2.75s to reload, then catching up again. Combine this with hooking, finding survivors, patrolling at 110% and it just adds up a lot. He also gets hard countered by quite a few pallets.
Good Deathslingers will try to cut as much of that as possible, by sneaking up and using M1 first, then following up with the M2, using STBFL, but overall he is just very slow at everything he does except his ADS.
He is at his strongest when he is territorial and keeps survivors injured as much as possible, which is a reason why survivors don't like him too much. But finding a side of the map with 3 or 4 gens, starving that area of pallets as you go through hook stages, keeping hooks close by and punishing unhooks is very effective. His counter play is very hard and requires a lot of prediction, good positioning and knowing how the killer plays, so most survivors don't counter him consistently, which obviously helps him.
Even so, because he is so slow it's hard for him to compete with gen speeds and the killer player is pressured to play almost perfectly. You can immediately see when you play stronger, higher tier killers, how many more tools you get to deal with the entirety of the game, not just with 1v1s.
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If they simply make her shards light up a bit when she is phasing it will create a reasonable enough indication that she is phasing but survivors will still need to pay attention to the killer instead of getting gifted all the info in the world by the game. I think this is the better way to go, they just need to make this consistent across all cosmetics. This would give feedback for survivors who pay attention, it would create a different kind of standstill mind game, where you will have to make a read based on whether you think the spirit will try to phase still or phase to catch up to you on the other side and it won't just gift survivors info about what the killer is doing on a silver platter which only makes the game harder for the killer but easier for the survivor, as so many killer do.
You can already hear her footsteps if you pay attention. Making them super loud when she is close is exactly the same as making her phase sound directional, you'd know exactly where she is, her power would be useless at loops and it will break the killer.
I kinda like the idea of the sound becoming stronger the closer she is, but i feel it would also break loops. All you have to do as a survivor is stand still, when it's close you vault, when it's far you stand still. It creates the same issue with the standstill mind game, except this time if favours survivors....
I think while in phase, all sounds should be capped at a max for spirit. I don't know if i agree with her being able to just use Stridor to find people, but i don't think you should remove all sound from the killer who already can't see you, cuz it would make the killer useless (I know you didn't say this as part of your suggestions, but removing all sounds when she phases is a suggestion ive seen from people).
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Gens are ridiculously quick by design, so feel free to do anything you think is necessary to try and compete with that. Survivors sure as hell won't hesitate for a second about keeping hold of m1, and they have all sorts of nasty game changing perks that they combine to give themselves the best advantage, which is fine, they should do that.
All you can do is try to punish their misplays as hard as possible and that includes tunneling, camping, 3 genning and slugging, when it's right to do so.
We'll see how that changes when the devs add the early game thing they have planned. But until then, do what you must and don't feel bad about it, your opponents are quite likely to judge you and admonish you either way.
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The game should also reward survivors for working as a team. Right now, if you die because your teammates failed to cleansed totems and you got hit by NOED, even though you cleansed 3 or 4, it feels awful, because you miss out on 5k points that the rest of your team is actually getting. I think survivors should be rewarded for every teammate that escapes. An incentive to view their role as a TEAM EFFORT rather than each survivor by themselves.
Survivor objective should also be a tad more demanding. Doesn't have to be something that requires a genius to do, but their current objective pretty much requires all of two braincells, one for holding M1, the other for pressing space every now and then, and that's just boring to them, and at least for me, when i play killer it doesn't feel like ive been outplayed in any way. Chases are literally the only thing that is demanding on the survivor side.
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@Wylesong said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1469504#Comment_1469504
I agree it is all in the perspective of the player but it does happen I think more with people that stream because god forbid they look bad in front of their followers. I mean who wants to watch someone suck at a game so it is better to blame others then their own lack of skill or self awareness. I mean I have played a few games as survivor where I did get mad but that is actually more at fellow survivors then the killer. I mean when I am using kindred and you see the killer camping and instead of doing gens, not 1, not 2, but all 3 come in to stand there and pretty much watch me die. GO DO GENS while i waste the killers time.
I actually respect good killers and yes there are certain killers I respect more when played well like Nurse and Clown. I know people say legion stinks but I personally love him/her because they can cover a good amount of the maps. I know I am off topic but overall I will sum it up by saying simply it is human nature to try to place blame in places other than ourselves sadly.
I think this person did the right thing and does it suck this guy got down so soon, sure but it is his own fault for not taking Spine chill's warning and thinking the killer should not touch him while on a gen. Heck he may have even left him alone had he not been on a gen but sitting on a gen he needed to be stopped.
TBH I very rarely judge a killer for what they do in a match when I play survivor. Because I know that if I have teammates who are doing gens and can run the killer for like 20 seconds, as long as I don't ######### up I can win the match. So either the killer is doing whatever they are doing out of absolute necessity or my teammates and I are just ######### up and that's why we're losing. So yeah, I too am more likely to be upset at myself or my teammates than the killer, because Im aware the killer has a different perspective of the match.
There are some ttvs that understand the bigger picture and when they are upset at something they have a good reason... but at least in my experience, most ttvs that I go against and then watch the VOD act like they think whining about the killer is what you're supposed to do instead of getting better XD
I dunno if you saw the video with full volume, but goddamn he deliberately ignores spine chill(which is the worst thing he does), is wearing earbuds which I can't assume are as good as decent gaming headphones, so he doesn't hear Ghostface's cloth flaps, he doesn't even bother looking around to see if it's a stealth killer, especially after seeing spine chill light up. Gets grabbed and Immediately complains about Ghostface, because I guess Spine chill is not enough, he literally needs a massive sound queue to tell him the killer is coming from a mile away.
He gets unhooked and after getting healed immediately hops on a gen(which BTW with two people gets completed in 47 seconds, like the killer can just let that happen...). He sees the Ghostface doesn't pick up the Claudette, and once again SEES SPINE CHILL LIGHT UP. Doesn't even bother to let go of the gen until he sees the Ghostface, obviously too late for him to run away safely, especially since he is at a corner of the map, and then complains about being tunneled.
I have seen this level of entitlement before, but it always amazes me just how these people will not recognize making the most basic of mistakes and then whine about the other players.
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Whenever I play against TTVs I always check the VOD to see what they saw in the match from their perspective.
It's very interesting to see how they think, most of the time they feel victimized when they don't see the bigger picture of what's happening, or they just played poorly and don't care to see why. Like that streamer in the video you showed deliberately ignored spine chill... I guess moving the camera to see if it's a stealth killer is too much effort for him...
For instance, I had a match with clown where they 3 genned themselves because they did gens too fast to pay attention, this TTV was on a SWF with one other person in the match. Obviously once I downed someone I would hook them in the middle of the 3 gen so I could patrol it. Obviously they accused me of camping before even realizing they 3 genned themselves, after a mere like 5 seconds of me not leaving the hook area...
Same thing happens when they see I slug or tunnel someone, but they don't see what I see as killer, which is 3 gens done, a forth one at 75% and two more at 50%....
Or one time, I was playing Deathslinger, this ttv was the last survivor on Haddonfield, looking for the hatch. Instead of looking around to see if I could be following him, he basically just ran out in the open looking straight ahead of him, didn't even look side to side... Naturally, I had spotted him, and shot him from outside my TR before he made a corner, so it was a pretty good longshot. In the VOD he was talking to chat and immediately stops when he gets shot and starts whining about how Deathslinger is so boring... nevermind how carelessly he was playing and how the shot I made was a difficult shot...
I wonder how common it is for survivors in general to complain about stuff when they play poorly or can't see the whole context of the match before they start feeling victimized by the big bad killer, and ttvs are just a little glimpse of that we actually get to see. And there's probably killer ttvs that are just as unreasonably whiny...
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Huntress is just faster at doing things and more lethal from a distance. Deathslinger can barely compete with gen speeds because of how much it takes him to do stuff: 0.5 seconds to after shot cool down, 6.8 seconds to reel from max distance, 3 seconds to wipe his weapon, 2.75 seconds to reload, over and over again. Both are good if you can aim, but imo Huntress is way stronger.
I prefer Deathslinger because I like how fast and responsive he is in comparison to Huntress, in the sense that his ADS and shooting is way faster. Huntress, to me, feels very cumbersome because of her windup. Plus think DS is cooler.
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It's pretty situational. But it is unfortunate that if you want to compete with gens speeds, you have to combine tunneling, patrolling hooks, 3 genning and slugging.
3 genning and patrolling hooks close to those gens is at least strategic, but it's not fun for survivors. Nor is it fun to be constrained to one area as killer because if you leave you lose the 3 gen and die.
Tunneling is a curious one. It's interesting to see how frustrated survivors get when they are put in the position of the killer, ie chase after chase after chase with no break in between, instead of having their otherwise nicely paced matches of high action chases, paced by chilling at gens. But it does not let them do the rest of what they can do in game so i can understand how frustrating it is. I don't think its healthy for the game for it to be necessary.
Slugging is just boring for everyone. It's sad that it's necessary.
In a perfect world survivors would have an objective that puts them at risk of interacting more with the killer, that needs some brain power to complete and is completed at a reasonable time, so then survivors could get a bunch of extra tools to deal with camping tunneling and slugging.
Unfortunately we live in a world where the objective survivors have is holding one button on a thing for 80 seconds, reduced to 47 with 2 people.
I don't really like that these practices are necessary, but it's been a while since ive stopped feeling bad about doing it in game. It's definitely better to play like an arsehole and have a chance of winning than playing nice and fair for some M1 gamers to then act like they outplayed you because of bad game design.
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If im using a stealth killer i play normally. If im using a normal killer, I go for them to see how decent they are at looping, if they are good I try to avoid them and go for their teammates, if gens are popping in seconds, then i assume is a SWF with OoO so i just afk until they complete the gens then open the exit gates and go circle around a corner. There is no point wasting energy going against that.
If im not feeling like dealing with that abomination of a perk altogether then i just DC and take the penalty. 5 minutes is usually pretty good to cool off, or I just walk around pretending like I'm trying while listening to a podcast or something without even bothering to go for actual chases, then open the exit gates once the gens are done.
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I've been reading through suggestions there is one suggestion that I can sort of MAYBE get behind, but otherwise every other option would make the killer unplayable.
-TR "fix" ... I have only ONCE in my entire DBD experience been surprised by a DS, and the only reason that happened is because I had my game on windowed mode, and I saw the killer from a distance, thought it was a different killer and was caught off guard when it turned out to be DS. His TR music may be weird but the Heartbeat itself is extremely consistent. He may catch you by surprise the first time in the match, but once you know it's a DS, it's your responsibility to be extra vigilant and bolt it as soon as you hear the heartbeat or see his tall arse coming...
DS does not have a "hum" like Huntress because he is much less lethal at a distance than Huntress, and he can shoot much less frequently and and with a higher punishment than Huntress. Without M&A, if a survivor starts running in a straight line as soon as they hear his TR, it takes DS 15 seconds to catch up TO MAXIMUM HARPOON RANGE. Yes, it takes him 15 seconds to catch up from 24 meters to 18 meters, which is an incredibly difficult and stupidly unreliable shot. He has to get closer for a better shot. Then he has to shoot it takes about 0.5s before he can start reeling in after a survivor is speared. It takes 6.8s to reel a survivor from full range, then it takes 3s to wipe his weapon and then 2.75s to reload before he then has to catch up again at 0.4 m/s. Giving survivors a warning like huntress has, will literally make him unable to compete against gens, period, and it will allow survivors to counter a killer for a stupid amount of time by doing exactly what they do on gens, holding one button, except it's W instead of M1.
-ADS "fix" people suggest making his ADS take longer. OP already explained how that doesn't fix anything with regards to the issue some survivors have. His attack is unreactable, even if you know DS is ADSing, you don't know when he's gonna shoot, which means you still need to predict when he is going to shoot. I guess this does one thing tho. Since survivors will move faster than him if he is forced to ADS for longer, it once again will make it so survivors gain an advantage against the killer by pressing one god forsaken button, the holy W, since he'll be slowly losing distance. Like OP said, this will limit his potential for tighter shots, but it will also make every single shot a risk that's barely worth it on a killer that's 110% which means they depend on their power for pressure. The reason for this is because, as soon as a survivor knows you're ADSing, they can start moving erratically or unpredictably. A Huntress can chuck a good 3 hatchets or more at a survivor trying to juke, without much loss distance. If DS does not land the shot (much easier to miss than Huntress by the way because it's a needle instead of a minivan), it's a 1.5s missed shot CD, then a 2.75s reload, then back to catching up to shooting range against a survivor. Again, another change that doesn't fix anything, makes holding W stupid strong against the killer and just makes the killer borderline unplayable and definitely unable to compete with gens.
Last one and the one I can sort of agree with, maybe.
-Add a post ADS cooldown. I can only see this not breaking the killer and making him useless if the CD is merely before he can M1 and doesn't slow him down. If you ad a post ADS cooldown of like 0.5 to 1s when he does not shoot his gun, it would greatly limit his potential at loops, which will already hurt him, but in open space (Which survivors should not be caught at EVER against DS, but god forbid they pay attention to their positioning, so lets make a concession) it will allow him to maintain speed while still allowing survivors to try and juke a hit after ADS. So it seems decent to try and stop ADS spam.
However, if you make him slow down during this CD, it will break the killer. It will be another thing to discourage a 110% from using their power, because everyone who has played DS knows there are times where you ADS to check if the shot is possible, if you determine it's not, you stop and continue chase. It will also make him unplayable at loops, so congratulations on making this looney toons skit of a game mechanic even stronger against a killer whose only advantage is being strong at cutting it short *sometimes*.
I definitely sound more irritated than past posts and responses on the matter, but i see way to many replies from people who don't seem to understand the fundamentals of playing this killer just throwing around ideas that would be beneficial for survivors without taking into account how they will break the killer for the killer player, or ideas that will just MASSIVELY increase the difficulty level for the killer while at the same time MASSIVELY decreasing the difficulty level for survivors, which tbh I think this game already does too much for no good reason.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1452458#Comment_1452458
I have saying for that, If you can put an add-on into base kit and it doesn't break the killer, It probably isn't a good add-on. In deathslinger case, every add-on he has can probably put into base kit and you probably wouldn't notice a difference in playing against him. he has like total 3 add-on that impact his gameplay which is iri coin(which is terrible) and warden key/grey add-on that affects reload and everything is else is meaningless.
I can definitely agree with that. I wish his base kit was just strong and his addons changed the playstyle rather than add simple buffs, cuz then you just think, oh why is this not base? XD
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1452382#Comment_1452382
I feel like the chain breaking and deathslinger getting rewards feels off in general. he is suppose blueball(be unsuccessful at hitting confirming gun hits) but when he gets the hit, its suppose mean be really impactful. Its like opposite. your incentive is to walk up to people as 110% with 16 TR with M&A, hope that survivor doesn't notice your great tall cowboy hat and does not switch on when tr music turns on and M1 them and only than begin shooting but given that every time you hit them, you give them sprint burst, they're bound to make to a loop and depending on safety of the loop, you have to make decision to play loop out or break pallet for more distance that inevitably leads to long chases, no kill pressure and fast gens. I just feel like he should be rewarded more for hitting shots with his gun on healthy survivors and not rely on his M1 as much. He relies M1 a lot right now which is why some people think he should be 115% but he is suppose to rely on his gun, that is why he is 110% and not 115%. This change would be like hybrid to that where you become a better at M1 for using your gun effectively. I think it would improve his chase time by making it more difficult for survivors to run forward for prologue period of time ahead of him without him being in range to take any shots and as result, his generator pressure would improve ever so slightly.
I think he is fine as he is, but i would tweak some of the numbers. I feel a lot of his addons could be base kit.
His cooldown on missed hits could be 1 second instead of 1.5. His reload could be 2.5 seconds instead of 2.75. His reeling speed at full range could be 5 seconds instead of 6.8 and chain charges could be a bit slower on certain scenarios. Like, i find it ridiculous how a survivor can just block you from reeling another survivor, while they are completely safe. There should always be some risk for a survivor blocking another.
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@Judgement said:
Two Buffs and a Nerf for every Killer
I see this sort of post going around on r/ForHonor. Generally it’s relegated to each faction per post because if all 28 heroes were done at once then the post would probably be way too long. As for DBD, it’s better to do them all at once because there’s no ‘factions’ to speak of and it’s easier for me to get them all out at once.
In order from the first killer in the roster to the last as according to the wiki, here’s my idea for ‘two buffs and a nerf’ for each Killer.
In the case of The Hillbilly and The Cannibal, I will be basing this post on their PTB selves rather than their live selves.
Feel free to debate and discuss each of these changes and give opinions. Maybe even the devs could take some ideas from this post if we’re (un/)lucky enough.
The Trapper
Buff 1 - All traps spawn active when the trial starts.
Buff 2 - Trapper is no longer caught in his own bear traps unless he is carrying a survivor on his shoulder.
Nerf - The Trapper loses bags and can only carry one trap at a time.
The Wraith
Buff 1 - Wraith can attack from cloak but doing so automatically uncloaks the Wraith and extends the hit recovery with a special animation.
Buff 2 - The Wraith’s action speed add-ons become baseline and he gains more movement speed while cloaked.
Nerf - Reduced lightburn resistance (add-ons stay the same)
The Hillbilly (PTB)
Buff 1 - Chainsaw charging is increased by a factor of 2 when the Hillbilly is outside of a chase, to allow more mobility when patrolling while reducing heat gained.
Buff 2 - Hitting a survivor with the chainsaw removes 50% of the overheat bar; the splattering blood cools the chainsaw down or something.
Nerf - While charging the chainsaw, the Hillbilly’s speed is reduced to 95% instead of 100%.
The Nurse
Buff 1 - 115% movement speed killer.
Buff 2 - The first blink has old omegablink range only when charges are maxed out.
Nerf - The Nurse can be stunned out of blink when a pallet is dropped on her.
The Shape
Buff 1 - Stalking movement speed in all tiers becomes 100% when looking at a survivor and stays 115% when not.
Buff 2 - Tier 1 gains slightly increased lunge and minor movement speed increase.
Nerf - Tier 3 loses the vault speed boost.
The Hag
Buff 1 - Mint Rag becomes a baseline special ability on a 30-second cooldown by holding the Ctrl key and looking at a distant trap when none have been triggered.
Buff 2 - Range cap on teleporting to triggered trap is removed.
Nerf - Putting down a phantasm trap triggers a 3-second cooldown (shown as a charge gauge going down to differentiate from Mint Rag) encouraging the Hag to move on and ‘expand her web’ instead of repeatedly trapping the same area.
The Doctor
Buff 1 - Remove the travel delay on static shock (forward shot)
Buff 2 - Survivors in the Doctor’s terror radius don’t lose Madness, but don’t gain it either with the exception of being shocked.
Nerf - Survivors can perform Snap Out Of It on each other at double speed to if they do it alone.
The Huntress
Buff 1 - The Huntress collects hatchets as fast as she opens lockers normally (remove the animation where she looks at the hatchet, and speed it up a bit more)
Buff 2 - When the Huntress has no hatchets, she moves at 115% speed.
Nerf - Huntress cannot attack or wind up another hatchet until the last one has disappeared (ie hit a survivor or wall). If she hits a survivor she enters a hit cooldown as if she performed a melee (new animation?)
The Cannibal (PTB)
Buff 1 - The Cannibal gets to cancel the chainsaw run when he wants to, and recovers charges and recharge progress equivalent to how much time is left.
Buff 2 - Without the add-on, The Cannibal gains one charge when hitting a survivor with the chainsaw.
Nerf - The Tantrum lasts 5 seconds irregardless of charges spent.
The Nightmare
Buff 1 - Fake pallets become the base ability, snares the add-on.
Buff 2 - Generator teleport is a 30s cooldown instead of 60s.
Nerf - Dropping a fake pallet wakes a survivor up.
The Pig
Buff 1 - The Pig roars after starting the ambush and not while charging.
Buff 2 - The Pig has unlimited Reverse Bear Traps and the timer starts immediately.
Nerf - One fewer Jigsaw boxes appear on the map at base, making it easier for Survivors to remove an RBT.
The Clown
Buff 1 - The Clown moves 5% faster inside of his own bottle fog.
Buff 2 - The Clown reloads faster at base.
Nerf - The Clown becomes stationary while reloading
The Spirit
Buff 1 - The Spirit moves at the speed given by Mother’s Ring at base while phasing.
Buff 2 - The window animation goes back to how it was before; she has no animation and phases through the window.
Nerf - The Spirit loses 25% of her power bar when landing an attack on a survivor.
The Legion
To be honest the Legion needs a full-on rework. If I had to give an idea it should be something to do with all four members showing up and doing mass damage of some kind dependent on add-ons, but until that may happen, here’s my 2B1N
Buff 1 - The Legion can put a survivor into the dying state by hitting them a second time, but doing so immediately ends Feral Frenzy. This only works if the survivor is already injured when Feral Frenzy is initiated.
Buff 2 - The Legion’s base cooldown is reduced to 3s instead of 4s.
Nerf - Hitting a survivor outside of Feral Frenzy completely drains the power gauge (compensation for Buff 1)
The Plague
Buff 1 - Infected objects stay infected for longer.
Buff 2 - Survivors become Exhausted when fully infected.
Nerf - 110% Killer
The Ghost Face (why isn’t he just called The Phantom or something lmao)
Buff 1 - The Ghost Face can enter stealth on will, but stealth is immediately broken whenever a chase is initiated.
Buff 2 - The Ghost Face has no cooldown to enter stealth
Nerf - The Ghost Face loses the ability to crouch
The Demogorgon
Buff 1 - The Demogorgon has no cooldown for travelling between portals, but both portals get destroyed in the process of teleportation.
Buff 2 - Breaking a pallet with Pounce receives the cooldown period that was in Demogorgon’s PTB (about half the time it is now)
Nerf - The Demogorgon moves much slower when entering the pounce stance (I forgot what it was called)
The Oni (added after being informed that I forgot about him)
Buff 1 - Quick attacks while Blood Fury is active (non-instadown M1s) apply the Broken status effect for 60s
Buff 2 - The Oni gains charges passively at 1c/s instead of 0.2c/s.
Nerf - Picking up a Survivor drains the power gauge by 50%, within or without Blood Fury being active.
The Deathslinger
Buff 1 - The harpoon gun reaches up to 32m.
Buff 2 - 115% movement speed when the gun needs to be reloaded.
Nerf - The Deathslinger’s miss recovery is longer.
The Executioner
Buff - He gets his ass back from the PTB
I haven’t played Executioner but he’s still new, and a very solid killer, so he doesn’t need 2B1N
Feel free to discuss and debate these 2B1N suggestions. Of course they may not all be well done or considerate about other factors such as add-ons. I did this for fun mostly so I didn’t put too much thought into some of the changes.
Several Edits: fixing typos and other stuff
Trappet: This would make trapper too RGN based and still deal with the main issue that trappers have which is wasting time picking up and setting traps. Trapper needs to carry more traps by default. The not getting trapped thing is interesting but removes some counterplay that survivors have like deadharding through a trap and leaving trapper on the other side.
Wraith: I think your buff to wraith is too strong. I think Bone clapper being base and maybe yellow windstorm would probably make him very formidable without any need for anything else. Since he'd be faster maybe he'd be able to deal with a bit lower resistance to being lightburned so i think that can stay.
Hillbilly: I think I like your proposal for Billy.
The Nurse: It'll make the nurse too strong, and I believe you can already slap her out of a blink with a pallet if you time it right.
The Shape: I like your changes.
The Hag: Mint Rag and infinite range like that is too strong. Imagine how awful it would be with something like Make your choice. The hag is slow and territorial, she only has 10 traps which can be destroyed by survivors and she cannot chase normally. Her power lies on securing an area. 3 second cooldown on trap placements would be detrimental.
The Doctor: I think Buff 2 is already part of his kit. The other 2 are alright.
The Huntress: The second part of this nerf would reduce her lethality by too much, i think. One of the few things that make her decently strong is her m2 to m1 combo.
The Cannibal: I like the changes.
The Nightmare: Seems alright? I dunno if it would make him too weak. He'd basically be an M1 killer.
The Pig: Those pig changes might be a bit to oppressive cuz its instant unlimited stall that survivors need to do it.
The Clown: I think I like your changes. Depends on how much quicker the reload is.
The Spirit: I think I like your changes. I also think her shards lighting up when she phases could be a good thing to open up other mindgames.
The Legion: I think this would make them ridiculously strong in a chase. It's pretty much old legion but waaay more lethal.
The Plague: She is in a good spot as she is, making her 110% will just make her another killer that needs to be territorial cuz theyre too slow. Exhaustion when Broken would be too much.
The Ghostface: His stealth removes his red stain which is so useful while on a chase. I think it'd be too easy to stay away from him if you could see him and he couldn't crouch. But i'd have to see these play before saying it's good or bad.
The Demogorgon: His portals are already a problem because of how situational they are and the fact they can be destroyed. Making them destroyed every time he teleports will make him waste too much time that he doesn't have in order to set them up. It's more a nerf than a buff. The pallet thing is a buff, but the advantage of shredding a pallet is being able to set it up from a distance. Not so much the time it takes. The thing with Shred stance slowdown will kill his potential to mindgame loops which is bad on a killer that already can struggle against loops.
The Oni: I like the ideas you propose.
The Deathslinger: First buff is mostly useless. You will never have these kinds of longshots, survivors would probably be able to dodge them easily. Second buff is decent although you mostly want the first hit to be a normal hit and then follow up M2, so it'd be situational. His missed shot coodown plus reload is already very punishing. A longer cooldown would just make him worse.
The Executioner I can think of some things:
1 Buff: Extend the range of Punishment of the Damned to at least 10 meters.
2 Buff: Survivors Only get rid of torment when saved from a cage, not when saving someone.
Nerf: cooldown of 0.5s or 1s when cancelling M2 before he can M1.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1450136#Comment_1450136
This post is really accurate. Its exactly the way I see the game. what people like LordGlint or DudeDelicious don't understand is that the game has certain time frame in which killer needs to win a bunch of chases, in my estimation, around 8 chases which is a lot of hits/health state loss. A lot of people don't understand this game has certain pacing to it, you need to win in around 6 minutes and that isn't a whole lot. It means that killers need to balanced around winning the game in 6 minutes. The survivor only needs to make a very small amount of correct reads to win the game.
A major reason to why deathslinger isn't a good killer is because he doesn't win the game in 6 minutes against good teams. In fact a major problem with him is that he doesn't really get rewarded for landing his first shot. There is more risk vs reward for missing his shot on healthy survivor than actually hitting it. I feel like a large reason to why this problem exists has to do with deep wound mechanic for survivor. Being Deep wound does not give any advantage to the killer and I think that is a kinda problem. When he does land his shot or he lands M1, you get massive sprint burst against deathslinger and it gives so much distance to the point that holding forward makes deathslinger lose and that doesn't feel good when the game mechanics compromise your ability to win as killer rather than skill of making reads. I think what would be good global change to deep wound is to make deep wound apply 5% hindered effect to give incentive for deathslinger to land shots on his gun and It would also help legion for what many people consider to be weak, a lot stronger in the chase.
I think a lot of people fail realize how powerful the entire looping mechanic is in this game and how overly aggressive you can be in the game as survivor and not really get punished for it. It is also impressive for how safe you can be/how little reads you need to make in the game to be effective at survivor and jungle gyms are just case in point in showing that. Most of the game can literally be played on just throwing pallets and running forward and if your team has good team chemistry on doing objective and healing, you'll win most of your games. I think the old conception of this game is that they wanted to make survivor indefinitely strong such that if the survivor was good enough that they could endless parry the killer but the killer would have tools to outplay the survivor. The issue being that most of the killers powers aren't reliable enough/exaggerated enough for that type of infinity reward system to put in place. The old system of map building and killer add-on creation vs new killer add-on/map building greatly converges on this problem. Old killers generally have good ultra-rare construction that gives killer a chance to reap infinity reward/power where as new killers have very bad ultra-rares, but the positive side is that maps are becoming weaker so it is reducing the survivor's skill expression and therefore the need for killer skill expression is needed less on their power. At this point, it becomes a question of whether less = more or more = less for little/more a killer power should influence the game. All I have to say about this topic is that the better your opponent is, the less opportunity you'll get opportunities to impact the game and the more required it is for your killer powers to be reliable to make a play happen in the heat of the moment. Often what is reliable yields to less counter-play and vice versa.
There are several problems I see with this game overall and discussing all of them would be very complicated. The problem is that since everything is interconnected, talking about one problem specifically as if it existed in a vacuum becomes reductive and ineffective.
I honestly wouldn't be opposed to survivors having more tools and mechanics at their disposal to defend themselves from killers if gen times weren't as strict. Then we could also have stronger killer mechanics and it would allow for skillful expression on both sides. Unfortunately that is not the game we're playing.
I think looping is mostly too strong and too easy to execute against most killers, so having killers that require you to be on your toes makes it at least require a lot more skill, quick thinking and prediction. Chases are massively in favour of survivors, which is why killers that are strong at it or can bypass it are way more lethal.
Your deep wound idea is interesting but i dunno if it'd be too strong. It'd definitely make legion stronger. And if applied only on hits to speared survivors and not on chain breaks, it might be an incentive for Deathslinger to always land shots he can reel in. However it should not apply this hindered effect on borrowed time. Deep wounds is pretty lackluster atm... wi sh they would do something about it.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1451299#Comment_1451299
Ok I'll make this short to sum up your point try to put yourself in a good position right? Thags the thing you cant so that against PH because he can zone for free at any pallet when he puts his sword in.the ground its if I throw this I get hit by the range and if I dont he cancels and m1s guesses like that are not healthy that t and l wa he was at was in the killers favor he didnt capitalize though.
Also even a good survivor cant constantly put themselves at good tiles especially with map rng maps like shelter woods are so bad with that I've had variations with zero jungle gyms and only t and l walla sand pallet gyms.
You are giving some good advice but it's still has so much luck to factor in and ontop of that PH flawed ability.
What if you drop the pallet before he gets his sword int he ground, because you're a smart survivor and you can see PH coming, and you know he is dangerous up close or you can see that from the angle he has he's not gonna plonk his sword because he doesn't have LoS, if he does it'll be a risky play from his part and he will lose distance? You get the pallet drop and he has to hit his hard to hit ranged attack when you are at a much better spot to dodge it... I've done it consistently. And have had it done. Consistently. And I've seen it done Consistently, by people who are way better than me on both sides.
A jungle gym is an example of a tile that's pretty safe against him. Shack is decent against him if you know how to run it.
He doesn't get his zoning potential for free. He gets it from survivors being greedy, not making distance and then not knowing what their options are when they get themselves in a bad spot.
At this point I am also tired of this discussion. We have given our points. You will think whatever you like. Hopefully the people who stop by and look at the discussion can appreciate whichever points they think are better and make up their minds about the issue. Or better yet, they can play the killer against good survivors, then play well against him and see for themselves what they can and can't do about it.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1451108#Comment_1451108
Doesnt matter what happened yes he did mess up his pathing but regardless with what he was doing he was going down. Even with the distance he had he could of had range addons and so the threat of being hit by the range is now in play if he runs straight then attempts to fake boom he cancels.
The reason he messed up his pathing is because he was trying to dodge his range which is up happens against slinger. But the PH just closed in there zoning him by just having his power up. And like I said the threat of being hit by the rang is what makes it so unfair you dont know when theh will use it because its not enough information he can either cancel or shoot.
He messed up his pathing because he looked back when he should have just listened to the sound queues. He was already in a bad position and messing up his path by moving his camera was a bad move. As a survivor you need to know when to look back and when to just move forward. That was one of his many mistakes.
Even if a survivor runs in a straight line it's a pretty risky move to commit to PH's M2 cuz their movement is too sudden and they have some time to react to it. Missing the shot is extremely punishing. It's a read the killer has to make. If you take the shot and the survivor dodges you lose a lot of distance. If you don't take the shot they may make it to a favourable position.
As I said, what makes stronger chase killers strong is the fact that not every pallet is a sacred god sent barrier against them. There are better tiles and worse tiles. If you go to a bad tile against a killer, that's still on you for choosing a poor tile. You should be given god shields everywhere.
He messed up the location he ran off to. He messed up his pathing towards a potential safe location, and he did not use either possible tactic to try and get on top of a predicament.
I specifically said, YES there are times where killers and survivors can put each other in unwinnable or almost unwinnable scenarios. And I specifically said, that if you're not careful about way more factors with stronger chase killers, you can put yourself in a scenario like this.
This guy had a small chance of making something out of the very very bad position he ran to. He didn't do it.
When I run Pyramid Heads I don't just think "oh pallet, i'll go to it". I think, "is this tile a workable tile against this guy's power. What Is my distance to this guy? How many times can I loop him here without being susceptible to his M2/M1 fake out? If he's too close, Im already in a bad position because he is very dangerous up close (another reason why people say keeping distance is extremely important against him), what are my options to get out of this bad position?" The thing is, i have options, and the options depend on my specific situation, and they may or may not work. I should use my knowledge of how the killer is played and how the specific player has payed in order to inform which option is the better option, and if he sees it coming then that's a read he made as well. If pyramid head is too close and the only tile i find is not good against him, I have to try and make it work in a situation where he has an advantage, and it's logical that it should be way harder for me.
Imagine an M1 killer at a jungle gym. This tile is massively in favour of the survivor. So for a killer to pull off a hit on a jungle gym he needs to massively outplay and read the survivor he's going against. Same deal with PH...you get put into a situation that's advantageous for him, we'll he's got the upper hand. You've got options, but they're limited and very hard to pull off. And because he is a more chase oriented killer, there are many spots that are way more unsafe against him that normal killers. But conversely, there are other situations that you can put yourself in, and that good survivors put themselves in consistently, where the PH has about the same chance as the survivor or the survivor has a greater chance than the PH player. The PH player will make do and try to get something out of those situations as well.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1451061#Comment_1451061
Ok I thought so you cant name any its prediction which is 100% in the killer favor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPlEbG3fOJU
Go to 4:12 and watch where he goes down and tell me how you counter that.
His positioning was not great and the tile was unfavourable also the fact that he messed up his pathing, not much to do with the killer, it was more of a very bad circumstance. I can think of two things he could have done, though.
1- He could fake respecting his M2 and not dropped the pallet, only to turn back and smack the pyramid head in the face when he's going through the pallet. As i've said before in this very thread, survivors do this all the time against M1 killers, where they pretend they will leave the pallet, then turn around and smack the killer. The survivor already has torment so it's likely the pyramid head would let go of M2 as soon as he saw the survivor leaving the pallet in order to recover speed and catch up for the M1. This could also just work because as soon as the PH sees the survivor leaving the pallet, unless he reads the turn around, PH will lower his guard, and it'll be much more unlikely that he will react to the fakout, even if he didnt let go of M2. I think considering the distance from the killer, if he had commited to the pallet, this strat was likely his best option.
2- Had he not ######### up his pathing he might have had enough distance to go around the loop once and not let the pyramid head have enough time to wind up his M2 before the pallet drop. This makes it so the survivor has much more room to dodge Punishment of the Damned if PH commits after the pallet drop.
Like I said, however, this was a pretty bad tile against Pyramid Head. Against these stronger killers, it's imperative that you put yourself in positions that are more favourable to you. If you find yourself in a bad position like the survivor in the video, he had the 2 options i mentioned to try and stall as long as possible, which is what the survivor's job is anyways.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1451014#Comment_1451014
How do you read a spirit standing still and a projectile that can shoot you at a anytime in less than a second?
Spirit standing still. Well you can also stand still and she will faze through you. It depends though. Are you injured? Has she used her power a few seconds ago? do you think its back? How has the spirit player played this match? Does she usually mindgame standing still or has this player always phased? Where is the spirit standing still? is it in an open area and she's trying to make it to a pallet before you? is she on the other side of a pallet? How far from you is she? Do you have spine chill to know if she's looking at you? Do you have iron will if you're injured? Does she have stridor? Can you hear her footsteps coming for you as she phases? if not maybe she is just standing still? What tile is this? Is this a bad tile against her or a tile that gives me more to work with? What do you have behind you? do you have enough time to make it anywhere? Can you fool her by making some scratch marks then vaulting back? All of these are questions you need to answer in order to make a read on what the player you're going against is going to do.
I will say this though. I do believe the spirit's glass shards should light up when she is phasing. If kept subtle enough and made consistent across all cosmetics it will create new mind game opportunities while still providing survivors with a little bit more info.
On the topic of Deathslinger, a similar set of questions arise. Are you at a loopable tile? Are you injured? is the tile safe against him? How far is deathslinger from you? Did you outposition yourself or are there tiles you can use against him? Has he shot and missed already? Are you going to make a corner? Are you gonna reach a pallet? Does he have the time to see if you're gonna juke or not before you make it to a safe location? If you vault the window, will he have LoS before you finish the animation? Has this Deathslinger player faked a lot? Does he try to shoot where you will be or does he try to shoot where you currently are? Can you move erratically and still make it to a safer place? Are there objects to break LoS? If you drop the pallet and he shoots you, can you break the chain and get distance?
You see, the thing about these killers in particular that makes them strong in chase is that you have to pay attention to all of these factors, and more that i may have missed, to inform what you do to try and counter them. And yes, these killers have the potential to put you in unwinnable scenarios IF you're not careful about how you play against them, which is why they're so demanding (and personally why i find them quite engaging to go against). If you pay attention to these factors as you're playing against them, you will be able to say, ok so im in this situation, I have these options, if I predict this correctly, they won't get the hit.
I'll give a quick example of ONE scenario. If you're at a jungle gym, Deathslinger is at a certain distance, you figure, ok Judging by the distance from the killer, I can make it to the pallet, however, if he takes a preemptive shot he might catch me before I make it. If I juke his preemptive shot and he doesn't shoot do I still have the time to make it to the pallet? Maybe yes, maybe no? It's up to you to take the risk according to the situation. At certain distances you can juke and still make the pallet, so you've put yourself in a favourable position. Because the Deathslinger needs to be preemptive. However, the Deathslinger can make the same prediction. He could say, well if I do not shoot he makes it to the pallet. If I shoot and he jukes, he makes it to the pallet. If I do not shoot and he doesn't juke, he makes it to the pallet. If I wait and he jukes, I might be able to shoot him before he makes the pallet.
It's a perfectly valid mind game scenario that good survivors will consistently try to put themselves in. And it's only one example of one scenario of what you can do against him. It varies a lot in terms of difficulty of execution and where each counter can be used, and usually being greedy is a pretty bad idea against these killers.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1450578#Comment_1450578
If you somehow managed to counter ph,spirits or deathslinger you just guessed correctly thats it there I no solid counterplay there are tricks but not counterplay.
Then you and I fundamentally disagree on what constitutes counter play. They're "guesses" in the same way that parrying in dark souls PVP is a guess. It's a read you make by anticipating your opponent's actions based on your knowledge of the game and how it's played. I find that to be a very high level of play.
I find the notion that the "tricks", as you call them, are not counter play to be baffling. It's like, you do these things in these situations and you can nullify whatever the killer is trying to do if you anticipate what they're trying do. Like what else do you want counter play to be? XD do you wanna be told exactly what the killer is doing and going to do at all times so you can have all the time in the world to decide what to do about it? Do you want a thing that you can do that 100% nullifies what the killer is doing whenever you do it after having ample time to see it coming? Cuz that's not the sort of counter play that is healthy for this game...that's the sort of counter play that makes playing killer stupidly demanding and frustrating, while letting survivors just turn off their brain to play.
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@Kebek said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1450578#Comment_1450578
It's a shame really when completely unique playstyles (only like 3 killers out of 20 have it) that need deep understanding of your opponent to correctly predict their next move is generally considered as "not counterable". I hope devs won't go back on their design and ruin such great killers that managed to break through the boring M1, survivors have full control over chase, looping meta which so many support as fair and balanced.
Well if they ever get over-nerfed I'll be here to give a piece of my mind on such changes.
Aye. It's unfortunate really because those are the ones that make chases much more engaging and much more satisfying when you consistently outplay the killer. But it is what it is.
Another thing about these killers that I think is not considered when talking about them is how they feel to play. Cowboy man has many slowdowns, but using his power feels responsive and encouraging. Same with PH. But then we have killers that have slowdowns and cooldowns and painfully slow actions no matter what they do that are such a drag to play. And this is what some people ask for in these killers. "Oh make his ADS slower, give him a cooldown so he can't M1"...it's like dude XD that feels awful to play.
I used to like playing as Plague. Then they gave her AWFUL cooldowns after puking and after cancelling the puke which made her so clunky and unbearable i dont even touch her anymore unless i have a daily.
To be fair this is more of a personal thing i suppose.
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@ALostPuppy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1450007#Comment_1450007
It works in fighting games, where you have not only several chances per round to predict your opponent, you also have actual sets where you play the same person multiple times. In DbD you have one chance to try and think about what the killer's doing and if you predict wrong you're on the floor. Using fighting games as an example for DbD simply doesn't work. And if you think jungle gyms have no chance for mindgames you're probably running them wrong. There are definitely good ways to run the standard jungle gyms and there are ways you can trip even good survivors up pretty hard. As far as the Ormond and yamaokas tiles go I still don't know what to do at those, I don't think anyone does, but honestly it's the least of your worries when playing on those maps as killer anyway.
As a survivor you have at the very least 3 shots to predict your opponent if you get 3 hooked. In an ideal scenario you'd have 6 shots, two per every hook. But you can usually have more, depending on whether or not you get slugged and picked up or saved from the killer's grasp, or if you get injured but not downed then heal.
You also don't need all of these shots to get a feel for your opponent, because if you learn how the killer they're using is supposed to be played, then you know how they're likely to play, then you only need to make adjustments.
If you know how huntress plays, you know when she's likely to ready a hatchet
If you know how demo plays, you know when they're likely to try shredding
If you know how Deathslingers play you know when they're likely to shoot and what tiles are better against them
If you know how Spirit plays, you know when she'll use her power to try and catch you around the pallet and when she'll just catch up to you and so on.
And this can be applied to every killer in the game. Some are way harder to counter, others are waaaay too easy, but none is without a counter.
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@Kebek said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1450537#Comment_1450537
Exactly, that's why I'm so frustated with so many survivors claiming that he's a lose lose scenario no matter what you do because he has not CD on M2 release when actuall good players know strats like this and are actively doing them to counter PH.
I know learning is tough but geez why do some many players just complain insted of trying to devise new strategies to counter someting they obviously don't have enough knowledge about.
I've been going around stating ways to counter Deathslinger, Spirit and PH (Culminated on this post lol XD) because people constantly keep droning on and on about them not having counter play. I think we'll probably see nerf to those killers because all their counters are too hard or unintuitive for a lot of players... It's a shame really...
Just imagine when no one will be able to use cowboy man cuz he's gonna have .5 second ADS and a sound queue so survivors can lightly tap A or D and easily avoid 90% of his shots XD
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@Kebek said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1450505#Comment_1450505
Yes, you're right, M2 is punishing and pretty hard to land with that camera lock, no even talking about how predictable the M2 is.
That's why I fake continue looping when they bait for the M2, they cancel it and I make a step back and teleport slam the pallet on them if they've overstepped. It's one of the ways you can outplay the lack of CD on M2 release, PHs expect you to not respect his power so when you actully do they get outplayed. Just one of the tricks that can counter PHs who fake M2.
OMG this! Is something survivors do all the time against M1 killers...pretend to leave the pallet then teleport back and smack them in the face. It works really well on PH and it is unreactable, its a read the PH needs to make at the cost of looping slower while keeping his M2 held longer.
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Monitor and Abuse is almost paramount on this killer. If you have a normal terror radius (24m) and survivors start running as soon as they hear it, it takes you 15 seconds to catch up to them to MAX harpoon range (18m). Monitor reduces your TR to 16m which allows you to sneak up on them well.
Save The Best For Last is good on him because ideally you want to M1 and follow up with M2 (also works with M&A cuz it helps you sneak up). You would usually want to injure the obsession by braking the chain on them, but dont be afraid to smack them if they're not struggling and you can't put anything between you and them so the chain breaks.
Nurse's Calling is really good if you pair it with M&A cuz you can see their auras while they can't hear your TR.
Sloppy is good for slowdown since all your attacks are basic attacks, and it's good because ideally you want to keep everyone injured as Deathslinger.
Pop Goes the Weasel is good on him. Deathslinger is very good at being a territorial killer, so controlling an area of 3 or 4 gens with Pop is really strong on him.
Corrupt Intervention is pretty good on him to avoid those early game gen pops although I personally prefer Pop.
NOED is good on this killer since it gives you movement speed at the end and the instadown works with your M1. If you don't mind using the perk, which some people do, it works decently on him.
Those are the stronger perks you can use on him i think.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1450007#Comment_1450007
I wouldn’t say Spirit is the only one that flips the switch. Clown can do this too.
Also Clown is the ONLY killer in the roster that can DIRECT the chase where he wants, whereas other killers cannot, taking that control away from the survivors for a change.
I do like how you're thinking about Clown. I can't say I can unlock that potential on him myself. However I think his recent buff has made him pretty formidable.
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@SquirrelKnight said:
Just gotta say, in regards to killers not having interaction. Its what killers have wanted from survivors for a while. The ability to act on the survivors and not just capitalize on mistakes. The pace of the game is 100% set by the survivors and the killer has to react to it when it feels like.it.should be the opposite, the survivors should have to react more.to.what a killer is doing
I believe that is what sets stronger chase killers apart. They're given the tools, in whichever form they come, to make plays that survivors either have a very short time to react to or have to predict in order to come out on top.
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@LordGlint said:
I'm going to counter this by pointing out your own example. With The Huntress example you gave, both players are trying to predict the other. The Huntress needs to predict when the pallet is gonna be tossed to have enough time to get out a hatchet while the survivor is trying to predict if the Huntress is gonna pull out a hatchet or not in determining if they should toss the pallet or circle again. Since the Hatchet being pulled out and then stored back away takes time and slows the killer significantly...if the survivor guesses RIGHT, they get to circle the pallet again.
This isnt the case with Deathslinger. Deathslinger has enough time to see if you'll drop the pallet. He doesnt have to predict ANYTHING because theres no downside to him raising his gun. Unlike Huntress who is slowed down for a decent amount of time if she misreads and pulls out a hatchet early... Deathslinger isnt and will just shoot you before you ever reach that pallet again. He doesnt HAVE to predict your actions since he can just react to your actions and still get the shot in while even if you predict HIS actions, you get nothing from it. Getting shot is basically inevitable if the person can aim and has nothing to do with what your input as a survivor was.
Keep in mind, I'm not saying Deathslinger is OP or even Strong, but just that his interactions with a survivor are extremely 1 sided. His downfall is simply how long it takes him to get anything done. After shooting someone he has to reel them in, hit them, recover from the hit cooldown, reload and continue chase as a 110% killer to get another shot while making sure the survivor is within range. Compare that to how fast Huntress can put out dmg by just flinging 1 hatchet after another with very little time inbetween. Huntress can put out damage ALOT faster if she has the shots but the survivors are actually able to apply some input to that.
Deathslinger on the other hand is very 1 sided with his shots, his dmg is just slow enough that while largely unfair in a chase, he's not as effective overall. Its like original Legion who could stab a survivor over and over with FF with that survivor having next to nothing they could do to avoid those hits and going down after the 4th unavoidable hit.
You are right about what you say with Huntress, but that was not the point of the example in my post. The example was simply to illustrate a scenario where there is already a requirement from the situation within the game to predict what your opponent is doing, and it's a scenario that's not looked down upon because it complies with a certain set of criteria. However it is still a prediction born of the situation the killer and survivor find themselves in.
Your point about Deathslinger, however, has flaws. Like I said above, there are positions with any killer and even survivors can do that to killers, where it's a lose lose situation for one side. Deathslinger has certain checkmates that he can put you in (I believe there's a certain degree of you as a survivor letting him put you in these checkmate scenarios but I'll argue that later).
However picture this scenario. You're running a jungle gym and you notice you're a few meters from the killer following your train. You're about to make it to the pallet and the deathslinger still needs to make the corner. This is a predictive scenario for both players. Based on the distance you are from the pallet and the killer, the killer NEEDS to take a preemptive shot or make a read. If you juke his shot and he shoots, you make the pallet and can make distance. If you don't juke his shot and he doesn't shoot trying to bait the juke, then you make it to the pallet. If the survivor makes the right call they get their distance and maybe a pallet drop. If the killer makes the right read he gets the hit. It's a similar situation than the example with Huntress, in that both players have to anticipate what the other is going to do. It's different in that, the set up and conditions for this are different.
And just like this there are a bunch of scenarios that happen throughout a match where both survivors and Deathslinger have to make a call on what the other player is going to do:
-Im 10 meters from the survivor, if i shoot and he jukes i lose, if i don't shoot and he doesn't juke I need to catch up to him and won't be able to shoot since he made a corner.
-Is the survivor gonna keep running in a straight line or are they gonna turn to avoid that tree? when are they avoiding the tree? How long will it take me to catch up if they make it behind that tree? Can I react to his turning and still make the shot? If the survivor turns to avoid the tree before you anticipated they may juke the shot, if the survivor turns later than you anticipated they may juke the shot, if you shoot after they turn you may not have the time and end up hitting the tree.
My point is to say that Deathslinger's counterplay forces both players into making predictions depending on a lot of very complex factors that need to be assessed by both players during the game. It's not as cookie cutter as it can be with a lot of other killers. I'm not gonna list them all, cuz this reply is already long enough, but I have seen with mine own eyes survivors pulling these off consistently, and I have pulled these off consistenly even though im not that great at it, because i play slinger a lot.
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@ClickyClicky said:
You can predict deathslinger but it doesn’t really matter. Its all on him to miss. With Spirit predicting at least offers you a chance to gain distance or escape.
On the reverse, as killer you can predict survivor movements to close distance and then they tap E to dead hard and gain it back. Dead hard is as broken as all these killers they complain about.
I feel that's a way to never be wrong though. Like if the slinger hits, its on hit for being good and if the slinger misses its on him for being bad? I don't agree that survivors can be completely taken out of the equation like that. Slinger's shots are predictive. If the survivor anticipated what you were gonna do and you didn't anticipate their actions you miss the shot and that's on both players. There are situations that you can be put in against a Deathslinger that are a lose lose for a survivor, but that's every killer and even survivors can put killers in those situations.
About Dead Hard and most other strong survivor perks. I have 0 problem with perks like this. It's part of what survivors take into account when making their plays and it's on the killer's to see it coming.
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My ping used to be 90 to 110 most of the times. For some reason most matches now are up on 130, which is not great. I've had no internet changes. I do hope the servers improve before Server Hit Validation is implemented or else it's gonna be hell T_T
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Trapper I like your proposal. I think trap escape attempts could go up per attempt. Like first attempt is 0% chance to escape, second is 5%, third is 10%, third is 20% etc up to a max of like 50% chance to escape.
Wraith, I think he just needs Bone clapper to be base kit tbh.
Huntress, I feel she could move 1% faster per hatchet thrown and she becomes a 115% killer when all hatchets are thrown but she has no power. However when she has her power she is slower. Seems like an interesting trade.
Legion maybe needs to be faster and have a bit more duration by default. With this, I don't think he'd need changes to frenzy hits. Also a 4 second stun is a bit silly for what his power does tbh.
Hag doesn't need more traps imo. She could use a bit more range by default but otherwise she is fine.
I agree with you on Pig.
Freddy, 10 seconds is waaaay too much. I don't like Freddy, but that's too much. Maybe a reload like clown, or a 2-3 second cooldown.
Clown, i like the idea but it could be broken. Imagine hitting a survivor with a bottle, they barely the on hit burst cuz they're slowed and you smack them. Seems like a pretty nasty combo from up close.
Spirit: the change you propose would break her and make her unusable. You can already hear her footsteps. Make her shards light up a bit more clearly and consistently across all cosmetics so you have to pay attention as a survivor, but you'd still have the telegraph if you know to look for it.
Demo needs some help. His footsteps are too loud as killer and as survivor. It's disruptive for the killer player and its too easy to see coming as survivor. Maybe rat liver could be base kit? It's like his best addon...and its brown, and it opens up Demo for interesting bait plays.
Plague: Pls remove or tweak the dreadful slowdown she gets when she cancels her puke and when she finishes the puke. It makes her feel so goddamn sluggish to use. Also make her puke bar not fill up until she can puke. I can't tell you how many times ive cancelled the stupid puke because i charged one pixel less than the minimum.
Ghostface, I agree with you.
Deathslinger can have some tweaks to his missed shot cooldown or reload speed or maybe his stun after his chain breaks. Not all of these changes, but i feel he has too many slowdowns after actions that stack together.