NekoTorvic
NekoTorvic
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Non zealous feels kind of awful to control and it seems like it's way too easy to dodge. Even a 0.2 s window, I think, would be enough to make it feel nice, while Zealous would still have the benefit of 3 times the control window, plus the wider radius and lower cooldown.
Besides, the greatest benefit of Zealous is not having to hook, bypassing every hook based protection perk survivors have, avoiding pallet and flashlight saves, getting you right back into the game without wasting time, and proccing Exile based addons. Zealous is plenty strong and has enough incentives and benefits without needing Non Zealous to feel so awful to use. -
I'm not sure a single survivor perk should destroy a killer's build if it's fully dedicated to aura. Distortion does it's job. It saves you from aura read at certain times, and it tells you what aura reading the killer has, which can then help you play around it.
If the killer is dedicating their whole build to aura, to the point they exhaust distortion, then I think it's fair that a survivor who finds that to be an issue should dedicate more of their own build to anti aura perks.
Edit: In fact, I don't even think a single survivor perk should counter even a single killer aura perk fully. The killer has 4 perks to the survivors' 16. -
Oh one more thing. It'd be really nice if we could at least equip BP offerings. No offerings for anything else, just BP. Or at least have like double BP in lights out matches or maybe every action gives double the usual BP and the cap is 80k instead of 40k.
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I agree with it being bad. I wish this game rewarded survivors more as a team, and I wish survivors got points collectively as long as they are engaging in the objectives. And then for every teammate that escapes, all survivors should get a little BP bonus, even if they have moved on to the next game or to the main menu. They should just get a little BP pop up stating "X survivors escaped in previous trial".
I am all for survivors who get the attention of the killer getting rewarded for their contribution to the team. -
Vecna and Vecna. I'd love those two in 2v8. Especially Vecna. He'd be so cool just casting stuff on top of survivors. And Vecna has such a nice traversal ability as well. Maybe they could give Vecna some more ways to reveal survivors' positions since Vecna is known for always being aware of what's going on.
Man I do love Vecna…and Vecna -
- It's been interesting to read the stuff in this thread. So here's my takes:
- This game's community has an attitude problem that is basically a part of the game's culture. It is absurd to me that new players know about and get upset by things like "tunneling" before they even know what some of the more meta perks do, and I think it's entirely an issue of player attitude. If your attitude is that certain things are bad and unfair and unskilled and personal attacks, then you are much more likely to have a bad time than if your attitude were one of self improvement, and understanding of what each side has to do to win.
- Both sides need to have ways to "ramp up" the pressure they put on the other side, and eliminating them entirely would lead to extremely stale gameplay. The important thing is that there's a cost/benefit analysis that happens, and that the side being pressured has tools to respond (this word is important, the tools should not NEGATE the pressure for free, they should allow a meaningful response to the pressure)
- A lot of the discussions about this game's balance, for some unfathomable reason, always seem to be based on the premise that "The team-side of the game cannot be expected to work as a team". I understand perfect coordination should not be expected at all times, but if the killer is playing well enough to require perfect coordination, then it's fair that the survivors should have to be perfectly coordinated. Balancing the game around survivors not being able to play as a team is just silly to me. Though I will say, the game does need more tools for better survivor coordination.
- The chaos of a looser matchmaking is always preferable to me. I much prefer going against very new people sometimes, and being nice to them and playing more chill, and then immediately going against hyper competitive people who clearly outplay me and are way out of my league, and everything in between, than just consistently and constantly having high pressure games against the same kinds of players, I find this latter version to be tiresome.
- High skill players going on incredibly high win streaks on killers (or even survivors, to be fair) does not necessarily prove that a killer is unfair or unbalanced. Most survivors have no idea what to do against high skill killers, and the same happens the other way around. What's more important for balancing is how players of similar, but good/high skill levels interact with each other, and most importantly, the cost/benefit analyses of the tools each side has available when used adequately and the cost/benefit of the other side when responding to those tools.
- Low skill players and new player should mostly be left out of balancing considerations. They should be given the tools to act and learn, but no one should be making balance changes based on a player's poor understanding of the game. The game should, however, change to be clearer for people, so that errors can be identified and understood by new players, so they can get better more easily. So in other words, we shouldn't coddle unskilled players so they don't get punished for misplaying, we should give them the tools to facilitate their improvement, if they choose to improve.
- Now for a spicy one that I have never, in 8 years of playing this game, been able to get off my mind, and it's a bias I carry, (but try to put aside when considering balance and such): The main objective survivors have to complete in order to win is "hold one button on an inanimate object, and occasionally press another one. Do this for a few seconds, then repeat." This always makes me think, in the back of my mind, that it's totally fine for killers to have more agency in their part of the game, which is the chase. Therefore, I think it's fine for killers to have about 65% of the agency in chases, so long as they have the skill to do it, cuz I do think killers should have decently high skill floors. (On the topic of player attitude I raised earlier, this used to be enough to get me to be proper upset during the first years I played the game…but I learned, changed my attitude and I'm much better for it lol)
- Speaking of chase agency. I think survivors have WAY more agency against some killer powers than people seem to think. While killers like Slinger, Henry, and some other projectile killers have the ultimate say because if they hit their power, they get the value, it is absolutely a fact that survivors can make it very difficult to hit them and even cause misses. Survivors that are good can mislead you with their direction, they move in unpredictable ways, they read what you're trying to do and all of these things can cause misses even on highly skilled killer players. This, imo, is a fair level of agency for survivors to have against these skillshot killers, and if the killers hit their shots despite survivors making it as hard as possible, it speaks more to the skill level of the killer player than to a flaw in the killer's design.
I think I could keep going but I think I've said plenty lol. Fun thread to read. People have so many different opinions.
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Generally speaking, I think gen speed perks are more unhealthy in their design than gen regression perks. Mainly because gen regression always shows itself to survivors. Survivors will always know that gen regression is at play. Also, because the requirement of gen regression is actually outplaying your opponent, for the reward of further stalling the game. In the case of ruin, it's at least a pretty significant risk. And in the case of Overcharge, Call of Brine and Oppression, the effect is relatively minor, they still announce themselves to survivors, and survivors can undo the effects relatively easily.
Gen speed perks, on the other hand, either have no requirement at all, or the requirement is minuscule, or the requirement is basically doing poorly to be rewarded. And for most of them, the killer has NO way of telling they are at play. So the macro of having a general idea of how long gens take to be repaired just gets destroyed without the killer having much of a say in it.
Imo I think the only 3 gen speed perks that are healthy are Quick Gambit since it has a hefty skill requirement. Weaving Spiders because it has a hefty price and it actually tells the killer that is at play. And Potential Energy, because it has a decent time investment and the risk is high.
Imo, all gen progression perks should get reworked into other effects except for those 3. Weaving Spiders needs a decent buff to make it more usable and if most gen progression perks were to disappear, it'd be okay to buff this perk. Potential Energy could use a slight buff. Quick Gambit is fine as is.
Gen regression could get nerfed a bit to compensate. Ruin could go back to 100% or maybe 125%. Pop could go down to 10%. Pain Res can go down to 15%. DMS needs to go because it synergyses too well with Pain Res. Surge I think is fine as is. Deadlock is not a healthy perk because it doesn't reward good play, itFor the most part gen regression is relatively healthy in design. There is a lot of Plan A/Plan B, perk combos, but for the most part they have anti-synergy, which is good. And their requirement is for the most part healthy, you outplay a survivor, down them/get a hook, you get rewarded with the ability to further stall. Though, if most gen speed perks get reworked, it'd even be good to have gen regression perks have a bit more anti-synergy. Things like making it so gens that are regressing can't blow up, for instance, would instantly create anti-synergy with a bunch of perks. You could make it so gens that are regressing cannot be blocked by DMS, which instantly makes it not work with Pain Res in case you wanna leave DMS as is.
Toolboxes would 100% need to be reworked or nerfed as well if you nerf gen regression perks. Because you could still just get 4 tool boxes and BMPs and just blow up gens very quickly for no good reason.
So yeah, overall I agree with you that gen speed perks are unhealthy and I really don't like them. I see where some commenters are coming from talking about gen regression perks, though, I agree with you that for the most part gen regression is healthy even if it could be toned down a little bit if most gen speed perks were reworked. -
Ghoul is very mechanically intensive if you play for cutoffs. I barely play him because I cannot wrap my head around it and how fast you have to react and whip around loops in order to properly do cutoffs and prompt steals. But I've seen the crazy stuff Ghoul mains can pull off.
If you learn the techs like spancelling, Lich can be pretty mechanically intensive. I mained him for a while, and I still cannot properly spancel one spell into another. Chain casting Dispelling Sphere into insta Flight of the Damned is something I have never been able to pull off. Spawning skeletons consistently on survivors on loops accurately and in unpredictable ways can be tricky, especially against better survivors that know to expect the insta skeletons at certain points in a loop. Spancelling something into Fly to make it look like you're phasing through a vault location is also tricky. Properly pushing survivors while ending Fly to mess with their positioning is difficult. And small things like being able to summon the skeletons to hit a survivor that drops from that one vault location in The Game is satisfying and requires some timing and mechanical skill. -
This is not entirely accurate. Blight has changed multiple times. The way he flicks was changed a few times and the way his collision works has had like 2 massive changes, one in which added hug tech (I even remember watching McClean's streams talking about it when he explained Blight's collision then), and then the one where they killed hug tech (which I will forever lament for as long as I play this game, because a killer I dedicated dozens and dozens of hours to died that patch).
I preferred hug tech Blight and I will die on this hill forever. I'm sure people will scream "skill issue" and say he's much better now which he objectively is…and I don't care. I liked him as he was, and I dislike him as he is now because he feels uncomfortable to play to me.
So current Blight has existed for about 2 years, which is when his hug tech was killed.
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The replies to this post are kind of wild? Like…some survivors act like what's essentially a celebration screen for the killer that lasts a couple of seconds is a personal attack and humiliation ritual…
Jeezus Christ, guys…It takes a few seconds at most. Compare that to survivors opening the exit gates and just REFUSING to leave for up to 2 minutes or until the killer comes over to push them out. Or when they find the hatch and deliberately start setting off noise notifications just so the killer comes over so they leave.One is just a victory animation that lasts a few seconds, the other one is ACTUALLY an attempt to gloat at your opponent's expense and waste their time intentionally.
In every sport or competition ever, people have a friendly competition, then the person who lost stays for the winner to be announced, and when they don't, it is actually seen as petty. Some games have plays of the game or MVP cams from the winning team, and you just have to watch them before the final scoreboard. It's a neat recognition of the winner…But somehow in this videogame it's a personal attack on the survivors' time…🙄
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@AcesSpeedo said:
My main issues are his clocks spawning in the corner of the map away from everything and only 1 being highlighted even tho there could be another one closer to me.
His power last TOO LONG and it's far too spammy, forgiving and easy to activate meaning he has it CONSTANTLY. and the distance it can be placed is stupid unfair.
also aura perks are even worse on him than they are on nurse.
give him a fatigue? when he holds his power for too long? please?
you also NEED to make it so that when killers in general are holding their power aiming at someone, they suffer with the blindness status effect. its so unfair running around main or shack and he just sees your aura with the likes of predator and can hold his power on you even when you cant see him.
he also needs to not be able to bypass endurance with his power for a free mori off hook.
another issue is i can't look at him to predict when he's going to send his power at the same time as im looking forward to dodge his power when his send it…… ?? helllooooo??? i don't have 4 pairs of eyes im not a superhuman ?!??! why am i expected to be able to survive when im quadruple multitasking and literally NOTHING counters him? PALLETS? he doesn't even need to break them, vaults? he doesn't even need to vault them he just stands there zoning you and spamming it like come on! listen, im a good survivor, i know how to play the game, looking back, checkspots, etc. but you physically cannot outplay him when you have to look at him at the same time as judging where he's placing his power. its literally just run and pray, which i ######### HATE. its not rewarding to outplay because its literally just guessing. aqnd if you do survive? the vecna was new or playing with his feet im sorry but….
its not the same as unknown where you can look at him and SEE where his power is going to land, i have to LOOK at VECNA and at the same time LOOK FORWARD TO SEE WHERE IM GOING AND TO DODGE HIS POWER?!?!!?!!!!!! HELLOOOOOO????? sorry im so frustrated when playing against him. and its such a shame because I VOTED FOR ANOTHER STRANGER THINGS CHAPTER AND I HATE IT
and scene.
Im sure they could fix Clock spawns, but there's 4 of you, one of you can go for a clock. I don't think I've ever had a match against decent survivors where my power isn't cut by 3 quarters almost instantly unless it's like…endgame and 1 to 2 survivors are dead.
His power is difficult to hit if survivors know what they're doing. If you are getting hit a lot that means that either you don't know what you are doing, or that the player you went against is really good, which should be rewarded, and you can still play around it and make it as hard as possible for him to get his shots.
If his power lasted less time I'd be so terrible dude haha. When survivors know what they're doing it legit feels like I have to get it back every new chase. But I think his timer doesn't need to pause when he carries a survivor to a hook. That just doesn't seem necessary and they could revert it.
It takes 0.6 seconds for the vines to cast. That is longer than The Lich's skeleton's take to spawn, and honestly at this point I think the vines should be reduced to 0.5 seconds, because good survivors are actually becoming really good at dodging even on reaction and just destroy Vecna.
During the PTB, I thought he would need a fatigue if he holds his power for too long. Now I do not agree with this take at all, because when you use your power, survivors can just move erratically and make your shot very very difficult, which is what good survivors do. Right now, you can play with survivors' expectations by alternating between holding your power and firing it immediately. If you had a limited amount of time to hold your power, survivors would have too much control, because they'd know that all they have to do is be erratic for X seconds and you'll be forced to fire or go into fatigue. Which then makes it so the Vecna plays more predictably, which with a power like this just annihilates him against good survivors.
His power does not bypass endurance on death hook. He has to hit you, you get endurance, and he has to hit you again to get the kill. The only thing he bypasses is DS, and that is if he managed to get you with the 4 stacks. It's an okay enough mechanic, unlikely he'll get it on more than one survivor, and if survivors are good and alternating aggro it's sufficiently difficult to warrant the reward imo.
His counterplay is a little different from other killers in that it's not about just looking at him to see what he is going to do, though you should look at him sometimes, especially at loops. You hear the power sound cue and you know he's going to attempt his shot, so now you play with his expectations. You can run wide when he expects you to go around something, you can pretend to go one way but then turn the other way, you move without an apparent sense of direction to where you're going, and it'll make it VERY difficult to tell where you are going so he can predict his shot. You have to alternate the things you do so he can never have a feeling for what you tend to do. He has to predict his shots as much as you have to predict your dodges, but he has to respond to YOUR movement, so you have the advantage to play with his expectations.
For example, when I play him, I'm constantly thinking "okay this survivor tends to dodge to the left as soon as they hear my power and then they go back in the direction where they were going" or "this survivor always dodges backwards so I can just threaten my power and they will lose distance because they're walking into me" or "this survivor fakes going around a corner and then turns back, so I'm going to aim where they're going to dodge" I have to do this CONSTANTLY and I have to be correct with my reads or I will lose my games. And survivors, over the past weeks have become really good at making those predictions very difficult. One time they will dodge when going around a corner, the next time they'll commit to the corner without dodging, sometimes they'll dodge immediately, sometimes they'll just keep moving and then dodge at a completely random time. These survivors are SO hard to hit. And it's not just me, I'm obviously not the best Vecna ever, but if you watch the video of Hens (popular creator and very good killer who went on a 140+ win streak with Vecna) going against a comp team, he would miss SO many shots because the survivors were playing as unpredictably as possible, and I think he legit didn't win a single game he played against that team.
Most Vecnas you will play against don't have 30k hours in the game. They're regular players like me or maybe a lil better or even a little worse, so if you are a good survivor, like you say you are, if you get better at being unpredictable you should have a pretty good shot against him most matches.
I will admit his counterplay is different from other killers, and it is demanding, but he is really well telegraphed (i think too telegraphed) and he really has to predict you as much as you predict him. So my advice is don't rule out his counterplay, he does have it, and you can make him look like a fool if you get good at it. it's just not "100% guaranteed, you see him do this so you respond with that and it works", it's almost entirely about you being in his head and making yourself really hard to predict. -
The Withered Staff addon on The Lich causes exhausted when you hit survivors with the Orb. You can just orb survivors when you are in chase with them to counter dead hard. I've actually used it specifically with that in mind a few times.
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@Philscooper said:
you are playing blight, the 2nd best killer in the game. oni has it alot worse because ,
he cant turn and dash consistently while blight can with every bump.
if you want shorter killer queues, have more people play survivor.I would never dispute Blight is S tier, in fact I think he's better than Nurse if you play him at his peak, but that is not relevant to this.
Oni also has issues in indoor maps? Okay then my point applies to him too. I don't play Oni because I don't like how much his arms cover the screen with his power, so I had no opinion on Oni. But there you go, more reason to severely limit indoor maps when these killers are in lobby, at least as long as the queues are as long as they are.
I can't control the queue times, and I can't control nor can I think of how to make more people play survivor. What I can do I say, hey, maybe some killers whose powers get nuked in certain maps should either be tweaked to make them work better in those maps, or they should very rarely be put in those maps, as long as the queues are as long as they are. -
@Royval said:
there’s nothing wrong with rpd.
The amount of times I've bumped into ######### that is barely in my FoV in that map is staggering. Spaces are so cramped that I backbump into things, wasting rush tokens. There are areas that are almost innavigable, because a survivor can just get into a doorway that's unnecessarily uncomfortable to follow through. Like you just have to hold W because using your power is just not a thing that gets you anything. The bags or whatever they are in the corner of the exit of RPD, the one that you turn left and it leads to this outside corridor had an enormous hitbox for some reason.
This was not an issue when Blight was able to hug tech. Now he is sticky. And like I said, the map is what it is, I don't like it at all, but it is tolerable in 1v4 because it's just one match and on to the next one. In 2v8 it feels horrid to get an indoor map as any mobility killer because of the queue times. -
@NekoTorvic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4055537#Comment_4055537
Since "a good vecna" is never defined, and also you're not defining how the skill of the survivors needs to compare to the skill of the "good vecna", I suggest you watch this video of Hens going against a comp squad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKFh7Oi4X58
If you don't know Hens he is a well known DBD content creator and I think part of the consultant program with BHVR. He has thousands of hours of experience. Very, very good player overall. Your normal survivor is not as good as him. A comp team is good competition against him. He has gone on a really really long streak on vecna in public matches, so I would say he fulfills the criteria for being a "good vecna". However he does not win a single game in this video. The survivors adapt, make his shots extremely difficult, and waste his time as much as possible. Like it's kind of incredible when you look at his streak pub games and he barely misses any shots and you compare it to this where he is just constantly being made to miss by the survivors. Which just tells you how important survivor skill is when facing this killer.
Now in most public matches you won't find vecna players that are as good as Hens. Just like you won't find survivor teams as good as this comp team. But this just shows that vecna is a pretty balanced killer, when the skill of the killer and the survivors is variable as it is in pubs, either side has a decent shot at winning.
Vecna is also not an easy killer to use. He requires the killer player to predict survivor movement, and he can be extremely punishing in a lot of scenarios. Survivors that learn to adapt to his power can make him miss SO much. But the Vecna player has enough agency to try to respond to the survivors trying to countering. It's a very dynamic back and forth of both players trying to get in each others head repeatedly. You are free to not like it, but it is well designed and well balanced with clear weaknesses that can be exploited, but enough agency for the killer player to try and overcome the challenge.
And if you don't like it, well good news is his pick rate seems to be pretty low because he is hard to use and easy to bully as long as the survivors are good enough. In a few weeks you won't be seeing much of him, but the few players who do stick with him are likely going to be really good, and you'd do well to try to learn how to play against him.Also keep in mind that this is comp rules. In pubs survivors are free to stack all advantages possible with their perks to waste as much time as possible and use strong stuff like strong medkits and toolboxes with BNPs to be as efficient as possible. They can also use the anticamp in pubs, which is something they cannot do in the matches in this video. Vecna in turn, in pubs can use his exhaustion addon. But even with these restrictions Vecna loses consistently, and I wouldn't say the exhaustion addon makes up for survivors being able to use all the really strong stuff they can stack up in pubs. So, again, in a pub setting where everyone can bring what they want, and player skill is varied (both the killer and the survivvors), this killer seems to be perfectly okay. If anything, in a fairer setting this killer seems to underperform.
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@Brassoace said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4053556#Comment_4053556
send me a clip of a whole 4man escape against a good vecna i would love to see it
Since "a good vecna" is never defined, and also you're not defining how the skill of the survivors needs to compare to the skill of the "good vecna", I suggest you watch this video of Hens going against a comp squad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKFh7Oi4X58
If you don't know Hens he is a well known DBD content creator and I think part of the consultant program with BHVR. He has thousands of hours of experience. Very, very good player overall. Your normal survivor is not as good as him. A comp team is good competition against him. He has gone on a really really long streak on vecna in public matches, so I would say he fulfills the criteria for being a "good vecna". However he does not win a single game in this video. The survivors adapt, make his shots extremely difficult, and waste his time as much as possible. Like it's kind of incredible when you look at his streak pub games and he barely misses any shots and you compare it to this where he is just constantly being made to miss by the survivors. Which just tells you how important survivor skill is when facing this killer.
Now in most public matches you won't find vecna players that are as good as Hens. Just like you won't find survivor teams as good as this comp team. But this just shows that vecna is a pretty balanced killer, when the skill of the killer and the survivors is variable as it is in pubs, either side has a decent shot at winning.
Vecna is also not an easy killer to use. He requires the killer player to predict survivor movement, and he can be extremely punishing in a lot of scenarios. Survivors that learn to adapt to his power can make him miss SO much. But the Vecna player has enough agency to try to respond to the survivors trying to countering. It's a very dynamic back and forth of both players trying to get in each others head repeatedly. You are free to not like it, but it is well designed and well balanced with clear weaknesses that can be exploited, but enough agency for the killer player to try and overcome the challenge.
And if you don't like it, well good news is his pick rate seems to be pretty low because he is hard to use and easy to bully as long as the survivors are good enough. In a few weeks you won't be seeing much of him, but the few players who do stick with him are likely going to be really good, and you'd do well to try to learn how to play against him. -
Keep in mind the survivor side is a team side. If you get tunneled but your team gets gens done and escapes because of this, you did what you had to do! If you're good at looping and chasing you will waste a lot of the killer's time. Use anti tunnel if you think it's necessary. If you team protects you try to disappear if possible. If not, they should just pump out gens.
It is unfortunate that the game does not reward survivors as a team enough. No survivor that runs the killer for 4 gens and allows their team to escape should be getting penalized by having low BP at the end. They essentially won their team the game. -
I wouldn't mind if they reduced his token count to 3 instead of 5, with the same 12 second cooldown, made him 4.4 and made him lose a token when breaking a pallet… so long as they gave him back hug tech, gave him blighted crow basedkit and then reworked the speed increase addons.
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I absolutely love playing him. I traded being a Vecna main to be a Vecna main. He is perfect the way he is. I love his gameplay, I love how mechanical it is and I love how read-heavy it is. Unfortunately he is slow, and he does depend on slowdown to give him time to work his thing. But otherwise I love him. I have only ever liked 3 killers in this game to this level. Blight, DnD Vecna and now The Henry. As long as he doesn't get any changes to make him clunky to play, I will continue to play him for the foreseeable future.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
I keep parroting my opinion all the time, but I feel all S-Tiers/hyper mobility needs brought down to Wesker's level. That's when I'll have a more consistently fun time in this game. I don't need to win all the time, I just want chases that are fun as a casual player.
I play lots of killer and playing someone like Unknown while they exist is just irritatingI hope they never do this because waiting seventy years from the point I press M2 to when my dash is ready, only for it to bump into any bit of irregular geometry and then be unusable for 12 seconds is horrible and I'm glad most other killers with dashes or mobility are more responsive and feel less clunky.
I''ll admit I'm not good at Wesker. But he feels so clunky and unresponsive that I can't bring myself to play him. I'd hate it if every mobility killer were changed to be this way. -
I think instant exhaustion recovery is busted and I'd prefer syringes to be left as they are. At least survivors need to last a bit in chance to make use of the current syringes.
The change to styptic is fine tho. Insta endurance is just silly and goofy and way too powerful as it is. -
The incentives are kinda sad tbh. More BP is always welcome, but I won't throw games just to get more BP.
They should give basekit pain res so the incentives actually work for every type of killer. Killers like hag won't go kick a gen across the map to get the bonus damage. Pain Res base kit would be better. And then you can rework pain res. It also frees the perk slot so killers can use other perks that aren't Pain Res.
Bloodlust is pointless on killers with low mobility for traversal, and for non chase killers like Hag. -
This is another example of a realm that was mostly completely fine and needed no changes at all. Honestly I'd just revert the pallet density changes here. And again, if you think there were deadzones, okay fine, add VERY unsafe pallets to those deadzones. Unsafe pallets like the coldwind farm ones with the hay cone and the crates. Nothing safer than that should be added to these maps.
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Firstly, this realm still needs it's cosmetic glow up. It never got a proper one like the other OG maps, and it is a shame since a swamp could be extremely moody and cool to play in. Especially if you do decide to add little puddles or areas with actual knee height water level and stuff. It could look SO cool.
Secondly, most of the tiles in those maps are fine. However the pier area for both maps is very unfair for killer. Waaaay too many pallets and windows connected too each other. It's tricky to navigate. You can chain tiles outside of it with the windows it has. If anything needs to be looked at, it's those piers in both maps. -
The change to the window in main building of mother's dwelling is great. Those windows were very uninteractive because they were just too safe.
Temple of purgation, like others have said needed some more pallets.
However, I will say that I think that both maps went a little overboard with pallet density, but imo not by much. A small reduction in pallet density and I think they'd be pretty good.
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Autoheaven was fine as it was. There was nothing to be changed here except MAYBE if the game detects that no pallets spawn in like a 20+ meter radius, then it could spawn a VERY unsafe pallet. I'm talking unsafe like the tiles in Coldwind with the hay cone thingy and the crates level of unsafe.
Other than this, the maps were perfectly fine as they were, and I'd prefer if the changes were reverted for this realm. -
I feel like most Coldwind Farm maps were good as they were before except for maybe the front of Thomson House and Rotten Fields. Though I think maps having predictable deadzones is not necessarily a bad thing, it's a macro gameplay element for survivors and killers. Survivors need to either get the gens in deadzones done quickly, or they need to not 3 gen themselves while avoiding the deadzone gens.
From what I've played Rotten fields is okay now, though it has the issue of stronger tiles having fillers too close to them. A filler tile imo, should never spawn close to the window side of a long wall jungle gym or shack. -
The amount of filler pallets in Shattered square specifically seems a tad excessive, they're too easily connected for how safe they are. Forgotten Ruins seems fine, though I'd say the fillers should be a tad more unsafe.
I will say, though, tiles connected to shack should just not be a thing. Shack is too strong to have a tile that can be chained to it. This feedback goes for most maps actually. Strong tiles like Shack, Jungle gyms, Pallet gyms, Four lanes, That one log tile that used to only be in Red Forest, should not have tiles that connect to them while looping, especially not on the window side. A survivor should have to work for the pallet break or make a good misderection play in order to make it to a filler tile from those strong tiles.
Imo, filler tiles should be either very unsafe like the ones in Rotten fields with the cone thingy on one end and the crates on the other, or should be unsafe-ish like the new mcmillan tiles that have been made shorter. Safe pallets or god pallets have no place outside of the aforementioned strong tiles or main buildings.
On a side note, as a Vecna main, I would LOVE if more maps had small elevation differences. The main building in Shattered Square or the little market area are cool! Or how the tower in Forgotten Ruins is a little bit higher than the regular ground level. Having some small ditches, tunnels, hills or holes like Ormond Mine would be great! Maybe even an elevated shack like in Dead Dog Saloon would be so nice. And I feel like it would fit the aesthetic of borgo pretty well, even though this feedback specifically I think can apply to most maps. -
Man I'd take the 5 extra seconds on Fly ANY DAY with a shorter post fly cooldown that can let you potentially win a 50/50 at vaults with Vecna like Dracula can. His current post fly cooldown is so forgiving for surivvors…
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@ThatRyanB said:
Popping in to confirm that, yes, Off The Record deactivates during the end game.
Thanks a lot for the confirmation!
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Excellent suggestions tbh.
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@CrimsonMothKing said:
She just does everything way too fast.
- Recovers from Regurigate too fast
- Recharges Regurgitate too fast
- Switches to Head and can attack too fast
- Recovers from Headlong Flight too fast
- Whip is too fast
She needs to be slowed down in almost every way.
Also, I would make it so that only direct hit fully infects as the splash (for some reason) has an auto aim feature where it condenses the droplets towards a nearby survivor.
But I do agree, additional hits should increase the meter as long as infection is fully removed when hooked (and mushrooms are reduced because of it)
One suggestion I had, is that using the pallet vault in Head Form consumes some charges from Headlong Flight
Maybe that is the only way to make her balanced. But I'd hate to go that route first. The killer feels responsive and nice to play. I love that about her. I would prefer if BHVR figures out a way to balance her without clunkyfying her. The one consistent thing that has made me stop playing certain killers is when they start feeling clunky because everything they do has a massive recovery. It happened to Pyramid Head, it's the reason I never touch Huntress. I dunno if plague is still like that but there was a patch where she felt god awful to control because they made her clunky. Deathslinger is the worst example so far for me, a killer I bought cosmetics for and who I mained for several months, and they made him feel so clunky that I have not touched him ever since his ADS speed nerf.
I guess they made the splash have autoaim because map collision is pretty inconsistent. I would tone down the strength of that autoaim and I would still make the spalsh the focus. In my opinion, figuring out how to splash onto survivors is miles more interesting than just a basic direct hit projectile.
I wouldn't be opposed to the pallet vault in general consuming a percentage of her Headlong Flight charges, at least if you make her vault too much, she won't be able to instantly catch up once you get distance. And it would create a pretty interesting gameplay decision for the Krasue: Do I stay in body form and potentially waste more time so I can infect the survivor to tier 2, get them broken and then switch to head to get the down, OR do I infect them, immediately switch to head, but risk wasting my charges if they make me vault. I like it! -
@Elan said:
It think she's overrated. She's top A for sure, but she truly doesn't shine where other killers would struggle so much. I'd say her biggest strenght is wide FOV on top of decent lunge antiloop and mobility. I think that in state of implenetning planned feature she'd be fine. Just give it a time.
You might be right. It is prudent to let survivors adapt a bit, sure. And to be fair, she feels really good to play cuz she is very responsive and isn't clunkyfied by a bunch of animation delaying cooldowns. I hope she remains that way no matter what the devs do to her.
However, I think the thing about infection going away after getting hooked should be implemented. She is good at tunneling to a degree that I think is very unhealthy, and I am one of those people who think tunneling is a valid strategy that should be an option if the killer deems it necessary. -
I don't think we need a different queue.
We just need to give survivors more tools to coordinate.
Let them see each other's perks during a match and in the pause menu they can check what a perk does if they don't know.
If a survivor is on death hook, or being chased after being unhooked show their aura to the rest of the team so their team can try bodyblock.
Give survivors a basic command system. No voice chat, but maybe just a chat wheel with stuff like "Stay" or "I'm going for the save" or "help me" (maybe the help me option could be a single button so it can be used in chase), maybe something like "spread out", "hide", "stick together" etc. And an option to say yes or no to what is being asked. It doesn't have to be spammable, it doesn't have to make a noise notification, it can just appear next to their portraits.
Just something that allows solo queue survivor coordination to be closer to swf coordination.
Then we don't need any of these "anti" systems, because we don't need each individual survivor to be second chance powerhouses in a 1 v 4. We need to help them coordinate to work as a team.At most, make it so that if all survivors are being slugged, give the last survivor immunity to screams, no scratch marks and boosted healing speeds so they can pick up their team. And as for tunneling, I dunno, maybe make it so if a survivor gets 3 hooked without any other survivor being hooked, they endure one extra hook state and get a free decisive strike to prevent only extreme 3 hook tunneling. Deactivate these protections once 3 gens are completed, and that's it. No complications.
And if at that point, survivors cannot coordinate team plays, then sorry, that is just the nature of team based games. You will live or die by your team and that is true in literally any game where you play as a team. And if you are playing solo q you are making the choice of playing with survivors who may not be able to perform as well. Tough luck. You might get a better team in the next game.
Though I will say, BHVR should 100% give survivor more team based rewards. Give survivors a BP bonus or EXP bonus for every survivor that escapes a trial, so that way if you get tunneled but your team escapes because you did your job and wasted the killer's time, you can get rewarded, even if you don't stay to see the outcome of the match. Give survivors BP in every category when they are in chase, depending on what their team is doing. So for example, if survivor A is in chase, survivor B is healing survivor C, and survivor D is on a gen, for as long as survivor A is in chase, then survivor A gets BP for altruism and objective. Reward survivors for working as a team and for contributing to their team. -
@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002786#Comment_4002786
So Vecna gets slowed down for 0.01 seconds and then just hits the survivor. Unless you are making it that he's frozen for like two or three seconds while casting this is just scamper again.
I don't have the numbers, so I don't know how long Vecna slows down, or how much the slowdown is. But I know from experience, both my own and from watching other Vecna players, it is enough to make a difference in several scenarios.
If you misread what the survivor is doing and they don't drop a pallet when you expected them to, they make a loop. If you cast mage hand too soon, they make the loop, if you cast it too late they can just drop the pallet on you and you have to waste time casting it or just break it, so they make distance. Especially if they have mage hand items, they gain haste on you.
What I am asking for is already something that works just fine for any survivor player who doesn't pass the knowledge check. They make a read, you make a read, if you miscalculate the distance, they get away with it. The change I'm asking for only applies in the very specific scenario where Vecna is close enough to the survivor to contest the pallet position.
If a survivor drops the pallet too soon, Vecna casts mage hand too soon, then the survivor drops again and that's that and that's how it should be. But it is silly that if a survivor just knows to stand at a pallet, you just physically cannot do anything and they can drop the pallet on you at no cost, and your spell was pointless. -
@lettuchia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002749#Comment_4002749
Mage Hand doesn't require any effort on the killer's part. Literally all you have to do is use it to block a pallet as a surv runs towards it and you get a free hit depending on the tile, whatever timing is required is not precise whatsoever. Survivors being able to drop the pallet on your face again is exactly how it should be because otherwise getting a hit would be completely free and objectively comparable to scamper, and just because it's a version of scamper that resets a pallet doesn't make it a good idea. You can say it's not comparable to scamper all you want but it's simply not true
I like how you can just say things that are just untrue and just like pretend it's how things work.
Whatever. If you can just say things, then so can I. Mage Hand must be used at precise times because it's a short enough amount of time that if you miscalculate your distance or you misread what the survivor is going to do, you get punished. I've seen it happen when watching Vecna mains that are better than me. I have experienced it myself when playing Vecna which is my second most played killer ever. It's just evidently the case no matter how much you wanna pretend it isn't. I'm not gonna argue that it's as precise of a Deathslinger shot through a hole, or that Vecna mains are here having to do advanced calculus…this is a silly videogame which usually doesn't require utmost mechanical precision on either side. But the fact of the matter is, the timing is tight, it's not as free as you say.
It would still not be equivalent to scamper because the pallet is still reusable and survivors can still make reads and have good positioning to avoid getting hit if mage hand lifts the pallet. It resetting the pallet doesn't "make it a good idea", it just gives it a significant enough cost that the Vecna player will have to weight their choices and the risk of using it, which scamper doesn't have at all. Also, it is heavily punished for misuse compared to scamper because Mage Hand has a 35 second cooldown and if you mistime or misread the situation the survivor gets distance. No other pallet skipping ability in the game has such a long cooldown. Not even pallet breaking abilities have such a long cooldown and those come with the added benefit of actually breaking the pallet.
And all the discussion as to whether it's good or bad or scamper or whatever else aside. The fact of the matter is the developers of the game intentionally added an interaction of this spell with dropped pallets in which the spell lifts up the pallet. This means, the interaction needs to have a purpose. If the interaction is made irrelevant by the survivor passing a single knowledge check, it means it's poorly designed, as it has no other purpose than to noob stomp. You wanna make it do something else entirely? That's a separate discussion, but as it is, lifting a pallet is pointless if survivors pass a knowledge check. This, in my eyes, makes it poorly designed. And when something is poorly designed, it needs to get fixed, ideally.
Also, even despite all of this. The developers in a patch note literally said they increased the amount of time interactions are prevented when mage hand lifts a pallet. This is how they intend for it to work. It's just like bugged or something still. All my post was, was me basically going "Hey devs, this thing you said you wanted to do? Yeah, it still doesn't work like that. Can we get it done, please". -
@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002747#Comment_4002747
So the basekit spell should just be an 100% uncounterable ability then? He's already got the ability to catch back up with flight if he messes up and survivor makes distance and the flight of the dammed.
All of Vecna's spells are counterable. This is not about FoTD or Fly, which have their own ups and downs.
The base kit spell would still be counterable even if the survivor couldn't redrop it before you could move again.The survivor could make a read that you are gonna use mage hand to lift the pallet, so they don't drop it, you just hold it, slow yourself down, they make distance. You could make a read that they will not drop the pallet and run through, or you could fake your power, but if they read your bluff they can drop the pallet and you lose distance. This is good gameplay. it requires both sides to make a read on what the other is doing to do at a tyle.
The current gameplay is: Survivor passes knowledge check = survivor wins 100%. I don't think it should work like this. Right now, if the survivor doesn't pass the knowledge check they follow the model above which works just fine…. all I want is for this one 100% guaranteed in the survivor's favor knowledge check to not be a thing. That's it. -
@TragicSolitude said:
When I tried to play Vecna on PS4, it was like:
- spend a stupid amount of time fiddling in the clunky spell menu to select a spell
- pick Mage Hand before pallet has dropped
- input lag is so long that the survivor drops the pallet before the hand is summoned
- Mage Hand picks up the pallet
- now I lost a large amount of time in the spell menu and the survivor can throw the pallet on my head
And this is why I do not ever play Vecna.
Not sure this is relevant to the thread, I just want to regularly remind BHVR that Vecna's controls are garbage on console.
I cannot imagine how hard it must be to control Vecna with a controller. Even with mouse and keyboard it can sometimes be obnoxious.
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@lettuchia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002462#Comment_4002462
Ah cool, so you can avoid the killer getting a hit for free by having an item that you're not guaranteed to get. Remind me why should you have to do anything to counter a hit that itself doesn't require any brain power to get?
You should have to try and counter any hit the killer is trying to get on you? be it with positioning, making a read, correct timing or a direct dodge, depending on which is relevant to what the killer is doing at any given time.
Mage Hand requires a read on the killer's part and its timing is very tight. When it's used to block pallets it's tight, I mean. When it lifts a pallet, there is no timing because if the survivor passes the knowledge check, they can just drop it again in your face before you're physically able to perform any actions. Luckily most survivors don't pass this knowledge check, but that's not a good thing either. This also rewards pre-dropping, which if we're talking about things that "don't require any brain power" is pretty high up there. And like I said, mage hand has the inherent cost that it causes a pallet to be usable again. It is not comparable to scamper and it must be used carefully or a good survivor can punish the hell out of you for its misuse. -
@Foggyguy said:
If only there was some kind of add-on that allowed you to use mage hand to break pallets.
What is this logic where because of the existence of an iri addon with its own downsides, which essentially completely changes the way a spell works, the base kit of said spell should thus be just a 100% counterable knowledge check with a 35 second cooldown?
Also the iri addon doesn't resolve the issue. The point of the spell is to be able to negate the effect of the pallet drop if timed properly, at the cost of having to make a read and the pallet being usable again. The iri addon just spends a bunch of time breaking the pallet, which means the pallet drop served its function. It just doesn't address the issue I'm referring to.
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@lettuchia said:
Mage Hand doesn't need to be any more like manual scamper than it already is
Mage hand has an item that counters it and survivors can counter it by making a read. This is a situation that is 100% in the control of the survivor, and the devs even tried to fix it but didn't a while ago. And also lifting up a pallet means it can potentially be used again. Mage Hand is not at all like scamper, not in practice, not in cost, not in counter.
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I don't want to reward killers for losing by having the game catch them up.
Right now, tunneling is a choice killers make if they deem it necessary, and survivors can play as a team to counter it.
There are a few problems:
- Solo survivors have too few tools to coordinate and work together to counter the killer unless they're just absolutely cracked, which is bad for more casual players.
-The killer choosing to do this at the very beginning of the match can cause some matches to end too soon for one survivor, which feels bad. Just as bad as when survivors play in the most boring way possible and finish gens in 5 minutes.
-The game does an awful job showing survivors as a team role, where even if one survivor dies, the important thing is for the team to make it out. I think most people consider a win for the killer to be 3 or more killed. So It's absurd that a win for survivors is escaping, instead of 3 or more out.Ideally we should give survivors team based tools to defend themselves against the killer, and we should reward killers with enough power for doing well by not tunneling that they don't feel they have to.
If we safeguard killers for playing poorly, by slowing down survivors automatically, that's bad design.
If we safeguard each individual survivor for playing poorly and give each of them a million tools to deal with the killer by themselves, that is also bad design. -
Honestly I just think the post flight cooldown is way too lenient. You can literally win the 50/50 prediction at vaults, and survivors will still have the time to correct themselves before you can do anything. At least what you're suggesting would alleviate some of that, even if it is with an addon.
Imo they should just make the basekit what it was and make the addon do something else entirely so that the post fly cooldown stays consistent and balanced. It's just a part of his kit that is too sensitive to minor changes to let it be variable via addon. Cuz it creates scenarios where the base kit of the killer is clunky and pointless because the addon is there to correct it, so you feel forced to use the addon. And if they make the base kit stronger so it isn't pointless, then the addon either becomes useless or becomes too oppressive. Right now, the base kit is clunky and lenient and the addon is useless, which is the worst of both scenarios. -
@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
I dont think it was so much about their getting a chance at vaulting before you could swing so much as people using fly to land ontop of people and hit them long before they can reach anything. So they kinda recently added that longer attack after fly cooldown
Right, I know you can use Fly to bodyblock people, but if it's too far to bodyblock, but close enough to pressure the survivor into making a decision, at least it should reward you if you correctly predict what the survivor will do at a vault. Again, if you're Dracula, and you predict the survivor is going to vault back into you, you get the hit. Vecna should be the same imo.
If this is not the case, it just starts to feel like…well what's the point? That survivor had the time to vault the window 3 times, before my flight cancel was done. My prediction was correct, and I couldn't capitalize because the animation just gave too much space for the survivor to correct again and again. It's a bit too lenient imo. -
Honestly I wish survivors got some sort of bonus for each survivor that escapes a match. Could be bonus exp so they can get iri shards faster, or bonus bp…just anything to communicate to survivors that dying isnt the end, and the most important thing is getting the team out. They should get these bonuses even if they left the match. There should be a little pop up message saying "n survivors escaped the trials: you earned XXXXX bonus"
This game does a bad job at rewarding survivors for their team contribution unless they escape, which then makes survivors feel frustrated when they dont escape often, regardless of whether the match was a loss for the killer because 3 others did escape. -
@CrypticGirl said:
Killers can still tunnel whether survivors are skilled or not. So quit acting like tunneling is always the survivors' fault when the killer makes that choice.
True. Deciding to tunnel is a choice the killer makes. But survivors who are skilled both individually and as a team, can do a lot to punish the hell out of the killer for doing so. If you get tunneled at 5 gens, you played poorly or your teammates did.
Still, we should address super early game tunneling. Tunnelling should be something the killer resorts to to bring back pressure once the game has had a chance to get going, and survivors should have more tools to coordinate a defense against it. Mind you, this doesn't mean every survivor individually should be a second chance powerhouse. But better coordination tools is something solo q definitely needs. -
I dont want to play survivor. I don't like the gameplay loop of survivor and it was making me hate the game when I forced myself to play that role in order to "see both sides".
However. I try to do my best to listen to any argument with an open mind and I try to get informed on different opinions before I say anything. I try to see what those who are better than me are saying, and see what they experience, so I can understand where they are coming from. It is the least I can do not to sound like an absolute idiot. I was worse at it in the past. I've gotten better at it over time.
I will say, though. I find the animosity that is generated to be absolutely disgusting and it's fueled by both sides. With this patch, I saw survivors gloating over how much killers would suffer. I saw survivors trying to gaslight killers. I saw survivors demean killers. I saw killers who say they don't tunnel or slug demean other killers. I saw killers dismissing survivors, calling them entitled, coddled and babied. I saw both sides insulting the developers. Then after the announcement of them postponing the changes, I saw killers gloating about it instead of trying to be reasonable about it.
it is certainly disheartening… -
I don't think i main a killer anymore, so I'll say what I'd change on all killers I use regularly.
Blight: My beloved, that i don't like as much anymore because of how it easy it is to collide with tiny little corners. First I'd make his power a bit more client sided, because ping related back bumps are horrid. And I'd make him just a little bit more slidy so I don't hit the corners of things while trying to flick. (If I could I'd just bring back hug tech blight, but i'd be fine with just not hitting things that are on 0.1% of my FOV)
Ghoul: Remove kidnap tech. Make the minimum distance to grab onto things shorter, and the maximum distance longer, or at least allow me to use his power again faster after it failed to launch because, that animation seriously takes forever. Reduce the size of the hit detection on survivors a little bit more. It is still frustrating to hit a survivor that is injured when I was just trying to leap past them.
Dracula: Make the doggo go AWOOO more. In fact just give me a button to howl at will. How about that? just let me go AWOOOOO whenever I want. Put it on a cooldown for all I care.
Houndmaster: Well…the bugs. Also It'd be nice if the dog were a bit more helpful in general? Like…he is kinda precise which, fine I get it, he shouldn't be undodgeable. But maybe he could sniff out survivors if they're close? Like when the dog is on you, you can find survivors in a radius or something. I dunno.
Vecna: This one is sad, cuz he was my main for a while but now I kinda hate him. I dunno if servers are worse or what, but he feels very sluggish to play and cast spells for me, even with his faster cooldowns. I'd say he should be able to push survivors when ending Fly so they cant just double vault if they lost the 50/50. And honestly his skeletons could come out sooner. Like it takes a time to ready and cast the spell, and then 0.5 seconds for the skeletons to get a damage box. Maybe make it 0.4 seconds for them to start dealing damage. -
I honestly think the only thing they needed to nerf was the noise it made, because it was a tad loud and the infinite uses. I guess we'll have to see how the new opacity plays out as people get better, but i wish we had given the item some more time before such a drastic change.
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Omg Funger in DBD would be so cool. If I could play as Enki I might just play survivor more lol. Really cool idea tbh.