NekoTorvic
NekoTorvic
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3807811#Comment_3807811
That makes it even worse, because there is no counterplay. You get hit either way, even if you don't vault. You cannot make him miss or something.
Wesker can do something similar only as the pallet drops, dashing to the side around the loop, but you can still play around this.
huh? I mean depending on your positioning as a survivor you can just die either way. You either get hit because he denies you the vault, or you get hit cuz he chases you after the pallet is lifted. But what I am saying is that him taking you out of the vault animation or him denying the vault altogether are the exact same thing. He gets the hit cuz he didn't let you vault.
But the counterplay is to fake him out. Make him think youre gonna vault but then keep running. Or get him to lift the pallet then drop it back on him. Or commit to the vault and make him hesitate and you get space while he gets slowed. If you are in the position where you get the pallet lifted on you and you are gonna get hit, you already had your chance to counterplay, it was before you got to that position. You failed. Play Vecna and try to consistently get survivors off of pallets. You'll see it's not that easy against survivors who know what they're doing.
Like what you're saying is kinda like "wesker is dashing at me and I'm 1 meter away from him and there's not enough time for me to move out of the way when he's that close. There is no counterplay". It's like bruh you already had your chance at counterplay XD now you get hit. -
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3807788#Comment_3807788
survivors move at 4.0 m/s every second. a 1 second cast time flight of the damn allows you to move 4 meters in one direction or another. in practice, running forward and moving diagonal would make you move less distance, let's say it is 75% of distance which is 3 meters. You definitely should have enough time to go between skeletons. This version of ability arguably has more counter-play than you imagine. The knowledge+reaction check becomes more of a movement check where survivor needs to understand skeleton pattern. that is also what current version does but with 2 skeletons, it is somewhat too easy to recognize the pattern.
With 38 seconds, you have your spells up almost every chase start. If your cooldowns were to be 30 seconds you could use spells multiple times in one chase no problem. But you'd still be punished for misusing them. It would make his cooldown addons comfy but not necessary at all. I mentioned them as a cherry on top, but if they were cut in half or removed while making the base cooldown 30s, itd be totally fine. He does not need FoTD or Mage Hand to be 15 seconds.
His cooldowns are 30 seconds because many vecna players including myself use Ring of restoration and that green add-on that restore cooldown on m1 for his spells. Alternative play-styles are great but there is no reason to for meme play-styles that aren't effective. So in the end, stat-check add-on just end up being arguably his best add-on's. I am just making said add-on base-kit and i am buffing his mage hand and FOTD to be closer to other killer cooldowns for chase abilities. you can maybe argue 15 second is a bit too low so maybe 20 seconds would be better. I'd have to play vs it as survivor to see. 38 seconds is too high for sure.
Now let us talk about why 0.4 seconds is BAD idea for flight of the damned. So the reason why deathslinger has 0.4 second charge time on his gun or why he is allowed to have very short charge time below 0.5 is because his SPEAR cannot down survivors directly. The time it takes to put down a pallet as survivor is 0.5 seconds. that is why flight of the damn is 0.5 seconds because it is prevent Vecna from just holding his FOTD and pressing his skeletons exactly when survivor puts a pallet down. Yes killer can react to pallet drops. That is why skilled killer like me never get stunned by pallets UNLESS the power forces you to greed pallets like demogorgon's shred or billy's curving chainsaw which is easier now due to curve window being increased.
you would just have this image situation every time where if you drop a pallet, you get hit by skeletons on reaction like how deathslinger can shoot his harpoon gun during pallet animation drop for free injure.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/A627XOPBVQ5B/image.png
Again we'd have a situation where every 60 seconds Vecna gets to insta down you for no reason. Dispelling sphere is so easy to hit on people mid chase. I genuinely do not think it should be a thing.
That is your opinion. i think it would propel vecna to have quicker downs vs gen-rushing swf's and make dispelling sphere more useful then just throwaway detection spell that is generally spammed mindlessly with no rhyme or reason.
It takes Slinger 0.4 seconds to ADS and shoot his harpoon tho. Like the harpoon comes out instantly. It takes vecna 0.2 seconds to ready the spell and 0.5 seconds for the skeleton's hitbox to spawn. You also do not have to position yourself as Slinger the way you have to as Vecna which again eats at your time since you always have to maintain a 4 meter distance from the survivor if you wanna cast the skellies on them. And finally you cannot crouch Slinger's harpoon. You CAN insta crouch vecna's skellies after dropping a pallet. So no, i do not believe the Vecna player would be able to place the skeletons on reaction on a dropped pallet unless the survivor isn't paying attention. The only reason I made the comparison with slinger's ADS is because his ADS is still reactable at 0.4s.
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Vecna has 4 powers. 3 of which can be used in chase to great effect, especially with the changes I suggested. He does not need his 3 powers to be as spammable as the powers on killers that only have one power. 30 seconds should be more than enough if you know what you are doing._______________________________________________________________
It is my opinion, sure, and its also the opinion of like a billion people that have constantly stated that insta down addons are problematic. Literally all of this discussion is my opinion, but I am giving reasoning based on how it works to play Vecna in practice and what effects things have in how people play against him. I don't want Vecna to be hated and then neutered because his easy to hit sphere, that survivors do not see without Archivist items, can make people exposed. Its also entirely needless to make him busted with an Addon.I think a healthy design is when a killer has the possibility to have quick chases because the kit allows them, when used properly, to deal with survivor's counterplaying them. Insta down addons just remove half of a chase. It's way more skillful if you as the killer player prevent resets through macro gameplay, rather than just bustin out a png to cut chases in half.
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And lastly. Survivors do not have perfect reaction time. And if the Vecna player is good he'll try to spawn the skellies in your face every time. This spell is used short range. There is no "you should be able to go between them" at the range a good Vecna player uses them against you. This addon, as you describe it would make skellies almost uncounterable for NO reason. Not to mention it will deny vaults and pallet drops without any need for skillful play from the Vecna. You won't have to time the spell, because survivors won't be able to crouch them, and after a pallet drop they wont have enough time to move out of the way.The skeletons spawn so close together. In practice, it is impossible to dodge between them at close range, which is how any good Vecna player uses the skeletons. Not to mention that you'd make them inescapable after an unhook. You can already double tap people being unhooked. You'd just make it way easier and more consistent, again while lowering the skill requirement to do it.
Let us also not forget Ornate Horn, which spawns another skeleton and is basically the way people play with Iri book… Imagine having to try and move out of the way of 6 skeletons that go through walls, cannot be crouched, you have no idea where exactly the Vecna is placing them and at what angle, and you only have a teeny tiny split second to react to seeing them go through the wall, identify the angle they were shot at and where you are in relation to this cone and then move out of the way. I'm sorry, it think if the addon worked like this it'd be a silly addon that would be way too strong for no good reason.
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This is an actual thing a Vecna player may do against you. It's always been a thing, but It is way harder to do than it may seem. It's not just "hold it till survivor vaults" The timing is quite precise. Most likely you'll end up either preventing the vault altogether or just lifting the pallet after the vault. Either way, it basically ends up being the same as when he prevents the vault altogether. He gets the hit if you did not play around mage hand properly.
It feels nice to pull off as Vecna since the timing is so tight and it feels like you denied the vault. I don't think it should be changed. As is evident by the fact you thought it was a new thing, this is a hard to pull off, not very common thing indeed.
On the topic of VPNing tho. Bad ping is absolutely atrocious on Vecna cuz it delays your spells pretty horrendously. Like it feels really bad to play whenever the game puts you in a server that has higher ping. I would imagine no one would willingly VPN with this killer. -
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3807507#Comment_3807507
Exposed addons are unhealthy in my opinion and what you say about dispelling sphere would be kinda bonkers. You could just pop the sphere on a survivor, get the exposed, the survivor is exposed for 30 seconds, has 8 seconds of peace and then gets exposed again. This would probably make survivors hate him for all the worst reasons.
oh thanks for catching that out. it was something that was in the back of my mind but i forgot to write it down.
Vorpal sword has new negative. it increases cooldown of dispelling sphere by 30 seconds for a total of 60 seconds. so no, there is no permanent exposed. that would be too evil. haha.
I vehemently disagree that the negative effect of Iri Book should be removed. That would make 2 tapping with this spell ridiculously consistent and way too easy to do. If you're on the other side of a loop you're guaranteed to hit the survivor with it if you have 5 skeletons. Removing the crouch option for survivors is an unhealthy effect for the addon, the only thing that tries to balance it is the negative effect. This addon is ill conceived.
I don't agree. i think current version of the power is reaction check+knowledge check rather then movement skill-check. I want to change nature of add-on to be reliant on survivors moving out of the way between skeletons so there is more skill then pressing crouch for 0.1 seconds. strangely enough, a lot of survivor pre-crouch allowing you to gain distance with vecna instead of crouching at exact point to lose least distance, so you end up getting hits with his skeletons purely off m1 over m2 itself.
I think 30 seconds for all spells is enough. Especially if you keep Ring of Spellstoring. That'd make it 26 seconds, and if you keep Pearl of Power that's -5s every time you M1. This is more than enough to have consistent spells in chases.
I personally want changes to his base kit. Changing addons is absolutely lame and its a reason I detest the addon system. It neuters the killers base kit on account of a thing you may or may not have. If you go against good survivors without the addon that allows you to go against them it feels awful. So I disagree. Base kit changes are what should be done. There should never be the "use this against good survivors" addons. This is poor design in my opinion.
Your first paragraph is exact problem i am trying avoid. your describing the killer having to use add-on's to keep lowering cooldown of his spells. that is why i said that instead of add-on's doing that, it should just be base-kit that his mage hand is 15 second and that his flight of the damn is 15 seconds. he would always have a loop power available to him or almost always.
So I disagree. Base kit changes are what should be done. There should never be the "use this against good survivors" addons. This is poor design in my opinion.
why? if you made iri book and vorpal sword just base-kit to the killer, the killer would be too strong for new-average players. If add-on end up being too strong, they don't need touch vecna base-kit, only nerf add-on's likely to what they are now.
Again we'd have a situation where every 60 seconds Vecna gets to insta down you for no reason. Dispelling sphere is so easy to hit on people mid chase. I genuinely do not think it should be a thing.
Iri book makes it so that you barely even have to time your skeletons on vaults or pallet drops because survivors will not be able to dodge them. It would be even worse if you just had the full 5 skeletons. It completely removes the timing component of the spell and just makes it waaay better while removing skill requirement. On pallet loops at a certain angle you can create undodgeable scenarios with it.
Like in all of these situations his skeletons become 100% undodgeable. He just gets the hits for free if he has iri book without a penalty. And even with the penalty its way easier to get these kinds of hits. Like these are already hits you can get base kit, but it's on the survivor to react and couch, and if you position the skeletons right as Vecna they have to crouch for longer. It has a skill component from both sides, but in my opinion its a little bit too reactable, which its why i want the base changed to 0.4s instead of 0.5s. Making iri book have no downside would just give these to Vecna for free. You cannot walk out of the way of the skellies fast enough in any of these.
With 38 seconds, you have your spells up almost every chase start. If your cooldowns were to be 30 seconds you could use spells multiple times in one chase no problem. But you'd still be punished for misusing them. It would make his cooldown addons comfy but not necessary at all. I mentioned them as a cherry on top, but if they were cut in half or removed while making the base cooldown 30s, itd be totally fine. He does not need FoTD or Mage Hand to be 15 seconds.
Also I did not say the IRI addons should be base kit. You said you wanted his iri addons to be what made him balanced against higher skills survivors. I said I don't like locking up the ability to keep up with skillful players behind addons. 1. It just feels plain bad when you dont have the addons, you just go "oh well if i HAD the addons". 2. It creates a scenario where whenever you face a killer he always has X addons because they're the strongest addons. To me, ideally his kit would be high skill/high reward enough to play well against stronger survivors, and then addons can just change his playstyle with powerful effects and you'd be able to use a variety of them without feeling neutered. Like Vorpal Sword.
Vorpal Sword is a good addon at the moment, cuz it makes resetting under hook less efficient and it changes your playstyle around dropped pallets while not being busted. Well designed IRI. I would never say i NEED this against better survivors. Iri book also changes the way you play, but I explained already why I think it's unhealthy.
I do not think that a killer's power level at base should be so neutered that you cannot keep up with better opponents that you without them. -
@Devil_hit11 said:
i think that chase spells should have different cooldown from mobility and detection spell. Mage hand and FOTD should be 15 second cooldown and dispelling sphere and fly should have 30 second cooldown. With 38 second cooldown on both his chase tools, he gets over-punished for failing his ability.
balance-wise on his spells at base-kit, he is fine for everything except highly killed survivors/4 man swf. if i was to buff him for 4 man swf level, I'd only buff his iri add-on's.
Iridescent book has 2 effects and one negative. I have two problems with add-on. the first is that the negative is not necessary and makes the spell harder to use. the second is that fly blocking windows is underwhelming for the spell as an upgrade.
- What i would do for the fly spell is make it so that when you are in cooldown, you can m1 lunge with fly within cooldown. This would allow vecna to fly, land and then m1 directly after landing.
- The second is removed the -3 skeleton negative from the add-on and instead increase skeleton spawn-rate by 0.25 seconds. Hopefully longer spawn time will allow survivor to go between skeletons as they run forward.
Vorpal sword. also has 2 effects . The broken effect for dispelling sphere is too weak and too low duration and pallet break effect is only useful if it is used like a block pallet vault effect. I have two goals for this add-on. the first is to increase potency of dispelling sphere while reducing the reward. The second is to add higher skill-expression in using Mage hand when equipping vorpal blade for the killer.
- I would like introduce new negative for dispelling sphere debuff. Instead of disabling items for 60 seconds, the duration is reduced to 30 seconds and exposed status effect is applied for 30 seconds. 30 second is reasonable amount of time to outlast effect.
- I would to suggest a rework to Vorpal blade's effect. The add-on changes Mage hand to Curse hand. When the pallet is dropped with curse hand active on the pallet, the pallet explodes like freddy fake pallet. If Curse hand is used on a fully dropped pallet, it still takes 4 seconds to break. This would give more experienced vecna player the opportunity to cast cursed hand as survivor drops the pallet and gain more reward for predicting the pallet drop.
Judging from BVHR kill-rates and win-rate on this killer, it is unlikely they will buff Vecna for 4 man SWF. he is very strong in average soloq matches as shown by the stats. it is as they say, not every killer needs super strong. i am happy with Vecna how he is currently. He is able to perform well with minimal add-on investment. Upgrading him further would likely make him too strong for average player vsing him.
Vecna is weak against survivors who are paying attention, and his difficulty lies mostly in that he is a knowledge check. In pubs he is mostly okay. But I dont want him necessarily to be balanced against swfs. i want his kit to be usable against survivors who know what they're doing. Like I said, if they dont change him at all it'd be okay. But if they wanna make him stronger against better survivors, I propose the changes mentioned.
I think 30 seconds for all spells is enough. Especially if you keep Ring of Spellstoring. That'd make it 26 seconds, and if you keep Pearl of Power that's -5s every time you M1. This is more than enough to have consistent spells in chases.
I personally want changes to his base kit. Changing addons is absolutely lame and its a reason I detest the addon system. It neuters the killers base kit on account of a thing you may or may not have. If you go against good survivors without the addon that allows you to go against them it feels awful. So I disagree. Base kit changes are what should be done. There should never be the "use this against good survivors" addons. This is poor design in my opinion.
The changes I proposed only affect survivors that know his counterplay and only make his counterplay a little harder. It will do nothing to the survivors who already don't know what to do against him, except maybe the change to FoTD, but let me repeat that 0.4 seconds is the time deathslinger takes to ready his gun, which is plenty reactable. And this is after the spell is cast, which already takes 0.2 seconds to ready. So it'd be a total of 0.6 s instead of 0.7s.
I vehemently disagree that the negative effect of Iri Book should be removed. That would make 2 tapping with this spell ridiculously consistent and way too easy to do. If you're on the other side of a loop you're guaranteed to hit the survivor with it if you have 5 skeletons. Removing the crouch option for survivors is an unhealthy effect for the addon, the only thing that tries to balance it is the negative effect. This addon is ill conceived.
Exposed addons are unhealthy in my opinion and what you say about dispelling sphere would be kinda bonkers. You could just pop the sphere on a survivor, get the exposed, the survivor is exposed for 30 seconds, has 8 seconds of peace and then gets exposed again. This would probably make survivors hate him for all the worst reasons.
Vorpal sword serves a niche that I don't want to remove from the players that enjoy it. It can be used to deny a survivor a pallet for 3 seconds while the hand breaks it. That's a lot of time to prevent a survivor from vaulting a pallet and it can get you some nasty hits. This addon is absolutely fine as it is. -
At this point i kinda wish there was just like BBQ base kit and kindred base kit in terms of allowing one team to get aura reading on the other. Every other aura reading thing that allows you to see your opponent aside from these two imo should get nuked.
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I am starting to believe aura reading is kinda really bad… I hate it for chases on killers. i think sounds should just work properly so you can use a more organic means of tracking survivors.
I think BBQ was a good aura reading perk. It promoted leaving the hook to get into a new chase.
Aura reading on survivors is also massively problematic. Wiretap is the worst offender imo. There's ZERO difference between a person cheating and a person with wiretap and you get no warning about it. But survivors reading each other's auras on the other hand is a pretty good thing.
Honestly If if were up to me, I'd red rid of everything related to aura reading the opposing team. Make BBQ and Kindred base kit(those are the only instances of healthy aura reading of the other side in this game imo). Fix the sound issues so killers can actually hear survivors when they move around and that's it. No more of anyone getting wallhacks on anyone, massively altering the way they're supposed to play tiles without the other side having any idea of what's actually going on. -
Vecna's spells having consistent cooldowns across the board is fine. His cooldowns are okay, maybe reduce them to 35 seconds and nerf cooldown addons. 20 seconds would be too short for the amount of powers he has.
Fly could use an extra second of duration and could be made quieter. I also think he should either block windows by default for the duration of his flight cancel animation or he should always push survivors away from him after cancelling flight, because right now, survivors have full control and can 100% vault back if they hug a window or pallet, even if Vecna does the same to try to block them.
FoTD is way too reactable taking 0.5 seconds to activate its hitbox after the purple smoke spawns. I will die on the hill that this is just too much time to react for any survivor who is actually paying attention and could be reduced to 0.4 seconds. It'd require more of a read from survivors.
Dispelling sphere is fine as is.
Mage hand is 100% fine as is. It can be countered by a good read from the survivor, or more easily if you have the mage hand item, which is a good thing.
Imo, Book of Vile Darkness should not work the way it does because it can lead to some nasty 2 taps that are a bit too easy with this addon imo, especially when combined with Ornate Horn.
Vecna is already a pretty amazing killer. I love him so much and i've legit played way more of the game since his release. He could use some teeeeny tiny buffs, but he is by no means unable to deal with stronger opponents, so long as your skill as the Vecna player is up to par. -
So Vecna main here since his release. I consider myself a mid skill killer player. Vecna is very good against survivors who aren't super aware of how to deal with his kit. But his kit is what i consider to be a bit too counterable for people who understand his limitations.
Flight of the Damned takes 0.5 seconds to spawn after you cast it, which is a bit too reactable imo. This means, when you see the purple smoke appear, you have 0.5 seconds before the skellies get collision. I honestly think it could go down to 0.4 seconds and it'd still be fine. Of course, it is harder to react with all the stuff going on in a chase, but I still think 0.5 seconds is too much. It being 0.4 would require a bit more of a read from the survivors. It is a pretty decent zoning tool for sure tho.
Mage Hand is super bateable, but it requires a read from you. If you have the mage hand item and he doesn't dispell it, it's waay easier to counter by just running normally. It requires some awareness on the part of the survivor tho. But better survivors counter it pretty well. Good spell tho. I don't think i'd tweak it in any way.
Dispelling sphere is good. it serves it's function.
When he flies through a pallet or a window, you can ALWAYS vault back if you just hug the vault spot as he's cancelling. The Vecna player cannot block it at all if you actually just hug it. It is 100% in the survivor's control. That being said, it requires some good positioning on the survivor and decent reaction, since you do have to hug the vault very fast if he cancels on top of it in order to be able to vault back, but if you nail the timing it is 100% in your control. I do not think this is good, but I don't know how to fix it. Imo he should either always entity-block windows for the duration of his flight cancel, or he should always push survivors away from himself if he manages to hug the vault spot really tightly. Both of these might be problematic, counterplay-wise, so I dunno. Also fly is just too loud. It could be way quieter and if it lasted one second longer it'd be a tad better as a traversal tool. It'd feel comfy.
His cooldowns also make him feel very very punishing. I don't know if they need to be 38 seconds. I'd say 35 with reduced effect of his cooldown addons would be acceptable. But it's also not necessary.
I honestly think Iri book of Vile Darkness is an odd addon that I do not think should exist, since when combined with Ornate Horn it can make 2 taps a bit too easy imo, and I don't think that's healthy.
This is not to say the Vecna is useless. He still has the versatility to deal with a lot and can hold his own the more experienced the Vecna player is. I'd say he's either bottom of A or top of B. Regardless tho, he is super fun to play and they did a stupendous job making you feel like a caster. Using all his spells to deal with situations is legit more fun to me than playing some actual fantasy games with magic. He's so good at chain casting. I love this killer so much. -
Ive been obsessed with Vecna since he came out. Were it not for Elden Ring DLC id be playing him more.
Fly having a longer duration would honestly be awesome. But I like how far you go through a pallet or window. The skill expression is in knowing how to stop it just before you reach the window so that you just barely go through. And I actually like going over crouching survivors, cuz then they try to crouch or move backwards, you cancel fly and its honestly been a free hit for me every time.
Mage hand is a weird one. I think the only thing I feel should change with it is that when you lift a pallet, it should hold on to it for a second or two. I think it's dumb that survivors can literally just stand under the pallet you lifted and drop it on you immediately before you can swing. Also it should have shorter range. There's nothing worse than having a hit on a survivor and miss it cuz mage hand got summoned on a pallet 30 feet away from you.
There's two things I think maybe should happen with Flight of the Damned, imo. It should spawn the skeletons in 0.4 seconds instead of 0.5. Currently its just waaaaay too reactable. 0.4 is still reactable but it's harder. And the skellies hitbox should linger just like a quarter of a second behind them. Like if they had a trail or something. That way survivors actually would have to crouch for a tiny bit longer, and you'd be able to zone better just a liiittle bit better. But its counterplay is fine.
Dispelling sphere is fine as is. Maybe it shouldn't slow you down. I made a post a while ago saying I think it'd be sick if remote hooking dispelled survivors was just a base kit thing for Vecna. Cuz I think remote hooks just fit his theme so well. I stand by this XD even knowing how unrealistic it is. -
@Memesis said:
Im really going to miss remote hooks when they're gone. It wasn't until this event that I realized just how much I hate carrying survivors to hooks.
It is for this very reason that I use Agitation on ALL of my killers hahaha. It's a bit of a wasted perk slot, but the less downtime the more fun the game is imo.
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@OrangeBear said:
Remote hook has had very negative feedback, i don't think they will ever bring it back
Which is a shame in my opinion. Like…it just beats sabo and body blocking. Unlike Pyramid Heads cages, remote hooks don't prevent DS or flashy saves or pallet saves.. or at least they shouldn't. I don't get why they're getting so much hate. It just helps keep the pace of the game from the killer perspective.
Still. Pyramid Head is the only killer in the roster that messes with some form of remote hook state. I think It'd fit Vecna really well and it'd be nice to have a second killer that has this kind of interaction. -
Flight of the damned is fine as it is.
Honestly maybe what id do is have the skellies have a tiny damaging smoke trail trail following behind them, maybe like a meter. That way survivors have to crouch for a split second longer if they wanna avoid the attack, which would improve your zoning.
But if not that, FotD is perfect as is. -
@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3287004#Comment_3287004
It's 15% of your progression for Power Struggle. And yeah, you down the survivor, leave them slugged while you push out the other teammates, then come back for the survivor. It's more than enough time for Power Struggle Flip Flop to trigger.
That's still two perks, a ton of time, and the investment of other survivors, and it still requires the survivor to go down directly under a pallet. Not to mention that, if someone else is around, you're also at risk of getting pallet stunned as soon as you pick them up, so the perk makes no difference.
I actually did outplay the survivor that went down.
No, dear, you did not. The outcome of a chase is always a down, unless the killer gets really dramatically outplayed. There are no infinites, a survivor getting chased can and will inevitably go down.
And if the survivor managed to go down near able teammates, under a pallet, to plan specifically for the use of this perk, they outplayed you, not the other way around.
You really think a killer downing a survivor at a loop is not them outplaying the survivor? But getting out of the killer's grasp because the survivor held M1 for 10 seconds under one of 15+ pallets around the map, like it's somehow difficult to find the things, because they equipped 2 jpegs is an outplay?... ok man cool. Whatever, I don't care, we'll agree to disagree on that.
Also, like Ive said before, whatever your opinion on how much value for effort this perk combo gives you is irrelevant. The point of the post is, when there is no one in the map except for the downed survivor and the killer, the killer may leave them on the ground if they're under a pallet, because it is the only thing they can do to avoid the perk combo triggering.
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@TotemSeeker91 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3287019#Comment_3287019
Yeah but like... how often do you get hit by it, and 2 perks to hopefully get away, I'd say they deserve it
No, they don't. They don't deserve to have me cooperate in their perk combo triggering. Just like I don't deserve any cooperation form them on anything. I will try to prevent the perk combo from triggering, just like they should prevent my plays from working.
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@TotemSeeker91 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/357198/psa-dont-blame-the-killer-for-slugging-you-if
Who actually runs that combo
I've been hit by it. And well, the fact of the matter is that it exists, so I'm not gonna risk it. Slugging is the only thing the killer can do to counter that perk combo in that scenario.
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@FreddyVoorhees said:
Well , you are in for some rude awakening once basekit unbreakable update hits. They will always crawl under pallets and you will have no choice but to face that perk every single time since it will gain more value.
I am well aware. Sure, it will be a lose lose situation unless they don't have the combo. At that point there's nothing one can do. But that's not what I'm saying. Im not even saying people shouldn't use that combo. What I'm saying is: the killer is not trying to BM you if they slug you during endgame, when there's no one left, under a pallet, they're trying to counter a specific perk combo, and if you expect them to not even try to counter it, and then bm the killer for it, I think you're entitled.
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@Cassiopeiae said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3286859#Comment_3286859
its not for free, they died there on purpose
Lets just agree to disagree on this. I don't think these two perks require enough for the value they give. But it's whatever. The fact of the matter is that it's in the game, there's nothing wrong with survivors using it, all I think is that you shouldn't expect the killer not to try and counter it and if you expect the killer to just pick you up and trash talk the killer for not doing so even though all you could do to avoid being slugged for 4 minutes is moving away from the pallet, then imo you are entitled cuz you think the killer just has to risk getting hit by a perk combo, and potentially lose a kill just so YOU don't get left on the ground.
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@HugTechLover said:
Ehh you seem to be the entitled one here. Just pick them up. If they have power struggle, then they get value out of a meme perk and deserve to get out. 9/10 they were just sitting on a pallet incase a tm8 could get a pallet save.
No, nobody deserves to be given anything in a multiplayer game. What is this attitude? You dont deserve value out of your perk, the killer doesn't deserve the kill. However, If you dont wanna be slugged, and you dont have that combo, you can get out from under the paller, or else you can expect the killer to potentially want to leave you slugged to prevent that perk from happening, and if you then trash talk the killer because of it like they were actively trying to BM you, it's kinda stupid. Ultimately you can BM or trash talk for whatever reason you want cuz its a game. Whatever. But how the ######### is the person trying to counter a perk combo the one in the wrong in this situation?
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3286859#Comment_3286859
It's two perks, and you must've given them a LOT of time to recover, or else Flip-flop doesn't give enough charge to allow Power Struggle to trigger. And even then, they still have to make it out.
If the survivors manage to waste so much of your time that this incredibly garbage perk combo can do its work, you didn't outplay jack.
It's 15% of your progression for Power Struggle. And yeah, you down the survivor, leave them slugged while you push out the other teammates, then come back for the survivor. It's more than enough time for Power Struggle Flip Flop to trigger. I actually did outplay the survivor that went down. And I'm not about to give them a chance to undo that. How much do you think is "so much of my time"? you can literally trigger that ######### in like 10 seconds or so.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3286907#Comment_3286907
never claimed to be an expert skimmer
im glad we've reached an understanding XD
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@Shroompy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3286860#Comment_3286860
I can
just started skimming through it once I realized it was nonsense
Your skimming skills are sub par, then.
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@Kaitsja said:
That's not a free escape. If they hit you with the power struggle flip-flop combo, and escape, then they earned that escape. Chances are low that they have that combo anyway, so just take the risk.
We'll agree to disagree about how earned that escape is. But that's fair. if they wanna use that combo, and be slugged under a pallet in case the killer picks them up, thats totally cool. I just want survivors who aren't running that combo to understand there's a reason other than BM that the killer might be slugging you under a pallet during endgame. And if you are gonna run that combo, then you kinda forfeit the right to call the killer out, cuz at that point they're doing the only thing they can to counter it.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
Honestly as killer it just isn't worth my time to waste potentially 4 minutes to wait for them to bleed out, I would rather just go next asap and if that means they were Chad enough to run a mostly useless perk like Power Struggle and get away... so be it.
That being said, BM me with bags etc during the match and I will be extremely petty and happily slug everyone and bleed them out for the entire 4 minutes while I make a cup of tea.
That's fair if you'd rather move on. But it shouldn't be expected. Some people try to win, both killer and survivor. Survivors will do all sorts of things that take time, if they give them a chance to win, which is ok. The killer can do the same. I'll put on a video on the side and keep track of the survivor, if they get out from under a pallet then i'll pick them up, if they dont then they'll stay slugged until they die.
I don't think it's a chad move to use a perk that gives you a second chance because you pressed space under a pallet. Sorry, regardless of how meta it may or may not be.
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@Shroompy said:
Ok, Ill make sure to crawl out from underneath the pallet to make sure my teammates have no chance to save me while Im on death hook.
Just for you buddy! 🤗
My brother in christ XD i said when it's end game, and there's no one left and all you're doing is wasting time. Can you read things?
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@Cassiopeiae said:
if u ask me u were the entitled one there i'd rather let them go than wait 4 minutes, either way in such a scenario i'm already guessing the others were already out and for once someone is using a meme perk rather than meta
Oh sure. Im entitled because I refuse to allow a jpeg to give survivors a win for free when they could move like 5 feet and let me hook them. No. I downed them, I outplayed them. Im not losing it because of a perk.
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@Nirgendwohin said:
i had two times bleedout today. one by a twin who used me as bait and one by a sadako just for fun i guess.
Thats different tho. Im specifically talking about survivors in endgame being slugged under a pallet. At that point I dont want to BM you, but im not about to give you a free escape because you equipped a Jpeg.
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Give me one single reason why a killer should make their games harder on themselves other than altruism or self challenge while the opposite side is literally holding a single button to win the game while watching a youtube video on another monitor, getting carried, not by their skill, but by an overabundance of resources and safeguards to protect them from almost every single mistake they make... 🙄
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I think you should definitely have a button to quick order a guard.
And also I think you should be able to have a guard executing an order and a guard on patrol at the same time
If you have a guard on patrol, you should be able to quick order another guard to break a pallet, damage a gen or break a wall. You can't use M1 to call out that order tho, it has to be the quick button for the order.
If you have a guard performing an order, you can only summon a guard on patrol for your normal M1 and they can't perform orders.
If you have neither, you can either quick order a patrol or you can summon a guard normally to either order them or send them on patrol.
I think this change would truly make his multitasking potential exceptional.
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@Pucci21 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3269755#Comment_3269755
yes i love when survivors think they're invincible with DS only to be caught 3 seconds after using it, oh and who can forget the fact that it only works ONCE so you don't have to worry about it after! OtR is already 3 perks in one that works twice why waste a slot on DS
Because it's yet another second chance that stacks with OtR and DH and all the others. It makes it so if you have to tunnel a survivor at some point in the match, they waste so much of your time. So long as you make good use of your DS you will stall the killer so much.
Lets not forget you can combine OtR, DS and then you'll have DH after your DS cuz it resets endurance.
DS is ok. If anything OtR is absurd.
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There is absolutely no need to touch STBFL. it works well with a few killers an compliments their powers. It already has a fair drawback, and ultimately it's effect isn't even that strong to warrant a change like that unless survivors feed you stacks and overall play poorly.
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Well, first, cooldowns on your only ability in a game are tedious, all it means is that you get to hold W and nothing else for an arbitrary amount of time.
Second, his guards take time to spawn and take time to detect survivors and take time to go to where the survivor was detected so they can THEN initiate chase. All of that gives you plenty of time to do something about his power.
Also, when a guard is patrolling and you're chasing a survivor, you're without a power for as long as the patrol lasts, AND once the patrol ends you have a small cooldown before you can actually summon your next guard.
He does not need any more delays or cooldowns on his power.
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@Unimatrix00 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3271608#Comment_3271608
Do you encounter self unhooks that often? The game punishes people for attempting to unhook on their own, so I would say that 99.9% of survivors I put on hook do not attempt a self save.
I will admit, it's not terribly common that it happens. The problem is that whenever it happens it's either a big F you after a tough match or just an unnecessary time waste that either way is gifted to the survivor by RNG.
I've had hard fought matches turn from 3ks to 2ks because of a self unhook. I've had matches that after so much effort I manage to slug the survivors to scrape a victory turn into a loss because they self unhook, reset and finish their gens.
It's just a very very mean mechanic in my opinion.
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Self unhooking. It's basically an RNG F-you to the killer in so many scenarios. It massively increases the frustration on one side and has the chance of robbing the killer of a potential victory, all just so one side goes "WOOOOO I UNHOOKED MYSELF". It's such a mean, frustrating mechanic that hypes one side at a pretty bad expense to the other. Probably my most hated mechanic.
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I hate DH. it's still too easy to use agaisnt way too many powers. It still creates uncounterable scenarios. it's marginally harder to use, but the value it gives is so immense for what is still very basic mechanical skill input from the user that I just can't get behind it.
It's just one of those "getting outplayed doesn't matter to me lol" things in the game, and i wish we had fewer of those just in general on both sides.
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The hindered effect on wesker is a pretty important threat, it's more important than the insta down. I think it should not get nerfed. However, maybe you can have infection reset when a survivor is hooked, as in the survivor is still infected but they have to go through the whole infection cycle again. Or you could make it so that the infection post hook does not increase passively until the survivor does a conspicuous action. Or both, both are good too.
About your buff though, i really like that idea. It'd just look really cool. I'd love to see it in the game. Even if it's a rare thing it'd still be cool AF.
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No. DS is fine. In fact, it's the fairest it's ever been, even if it's still BS when a survivor that knows what they're doing abuses the fact they're essentially invincible to waste your time.
If you use your base kit BT to run to an advantageous position, and then stun the killer with DS you can waste a ridiculous amount of time from the killer and win matches just because of that one play.
It doesn't protect you for free without even needing to think about it, which is good. The stun works if you make it work. It doesn't work if you just expect it to save your life without having to think about it at all because you hit a skill check, which is how it should be. The mentality of wanting the game to safeguard you without you having to put in any effort whatsoever, is baffling to me.
But, please, keep on thinking DS is bad. Keep on not using it to waste the killer's time. It will really help killers if you just keep on believing DS does nothing and don't run it.
People who know what they're doing already use OtR and DS offensively because they KNOW it means they're basically immune to being killed.
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Honestly I've been feeling like they've made pallets spawn much closer to each other. I've had that impression for like 3 patches or so. I dunno if it's true, but it seems to me like every map has so many more pallets and just general detritus than before.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3261642#Comment_3261642
The question wasn't if OP made the better/right play. The question wasn't if OP played "fairly" or in a fun manner fir either side, nor was it if going for the Meg was the more tactically sound decision.
The question OP asked was if they tunneled. And by the definition widely agreed upon by both sides (and by that, I do mean the sensible rational ones) since quite literally June 2016, it was.
And other people commented on how OP could have gone for the meg, and how they themselves would have gone for the Meg, and how OP had the choice to go for the Meg but didn't. Be it tunneling or not, I was commenting on the opinions that other people expressed.
Also, it seems to me that OP wasn't actually really asking the question of what tunneling is. They were using it to state the fact that survivors still blamed them for what happened in the match, even though it was 100% entirely on the survivors misplaying. Yes, it was tunneling, but it's irrelevant. The survivors decided to label OP as a tunneller to shift blame for their own misplays and just demean the killer because they "tunneled". Or at least that's what I gather from the post.
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I think the argument that you should go for the Meg is dumb.
The meg has no hooks and is feeding you her teammates. She is a bad teammate, but there is no reason to get the survivor that's actively giving you the win out of the game.
I mean, if you're overly altruistic, and you want to be nice, sure. But there's no strategic reason to do so. It's not your job to give the survivors as much chance as possible, like it's not their job to give you any chances either. They didn't try they had BNPs. They have no right at all to complain.
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To me, it always depends on what it requires from the user, what it gives from the user and what the person going against it can do about it.
I think all current techs are fine, and I'm including Blight's hug tech, except for the one with the flashlight where you vault back while making the vault sound, although I wouldn't be opposed to that being a perk or something.
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Nope. It's a cute little thing survivors can try. It's cheeky, it requires decent timing, which is rare for things on the survivor side. It can be outplayed by the killer and it backfires massively if the survivor messes it up. It's nice to have a thing that survivors can do that actually offer a decent risk vs reward and actually feel good to pull off.
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You have to wait until you're physically touching the survivor and then react fast and flick in the direction the survivor turned. When Blight starts his hit, his hitbox is wider, so it will connect with the survivor as long as you're basically touching them.
This is called a Shoulder Flick.
In the video it seems you swung a bit too late.
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After playing the ######### out of Wesker with the serum...I think I understand. That serum has clutched so many matches cuz I don't have to use my power to get around the map. I get the map pressure and I still have my power. After every single hook.
Also it gives Blight 6 rushes, which is insane for a killer that's already top tier.
It is sad that it's only usable once a year. But I see the logic behind it.
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@TeleportingTurkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3228128#Comment_3228128
I still believe it should be basekit for Nemesis.
It replicates his horrifying sprint towards player so well.
He should be able to use the exact same charge at cost of a few mutation points & lengthy cooldown.
Honestly, It would really help him to have a sprint that's like on a cooldown, or even if it's like the serum where it recharges every time you hook someone...or both. It would definitely help his map pressure.
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I swear I'd pay 10 bucks to have a weapon skin for Artist that replaced her sword hand for just another hand. Her design looks so unbalanced to me because of that long sword hand.
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@Predated said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2595867#Comment_2595867
Oh, tell me oh wise person, how can you predict when a Slinger is gonna shoot when he can aim at you 3 times per second without losing distance?
That was the issue with Deathslinger, if he does that ######### now, he loses massive distance.
"They also made it so that the 50/50 is now on you. Now it's your responsibility to not only aim, but to also predict if the survivor is gonna twitch to the left or right, if the survivor is gonna run in a straight line, if the survivor is gonna move a little to the left and then stop, etc. Your weapon isn't hitscan. It's not just your aim that counts, but also your ability to predict survivor movement."
Except, it's not a 50/50, the projectile is still very fast to the point that if you aim to the center of the survivor, they would need to use an exhaustion perk or at least need a haste effect to dodge it. Survivors would need to move before you decide to shoot. But predicting the opponents movement to deal a hit must always lie at the person being able to deal damage. Not having that responsibility gives you essentially free hits. Free hits are always a problem, because the opponent's input doesnt matter. When the opponent chooses to put themselves in such a scenario, that's fine, they knew they were gonna give a free hit, but if that choice was forced upon them? That's an issue. Not a single other killer has the 50/50 on the survivor side. Every single ability from the birth of this game has given survivors room to respond. Deathslinger and Spirit were the odd ones out.
So yes, the nerf was needed. It's not done properly(yet), but it was absolutely essential. Killers need to be enjoyable to face, Deathslinger wasnt fun to face unless you were a premade 4. Desicive Strike literally recieved a nerf that was, in terms of in-game effect, unimpactful on escape results(I think it even increased). The biggest impact the nerf had, was removing the annoyance of having to deal with DS early game, but in return, DS survives untill late game a lot more often. Yeah, you read that correctly, the DS nerf didnt change the outcome of the match, 99% of it was changing the experience for the killer.
Deathslingers numbers, well, we'll see that in 6-8 weeks from now. If they dropped or stayed the same, he's gonna recieve adjustments in other portions of his kit. If it increased, well, nothing is gonna change since he would be an objectively better killer that now plays differently.
Personally, I do agree with his TR being 32 meters while he is 110% is a bit of an odd decision, and I dont understand why his ADS movementspeed addons were altered that much from the PTB, but I do know why they were changed(the 10% wasnt really 10% increase of his movementspeed, but 10% of the movementspeed multiplier, meaning he went from 0.85x to 0.95x, while in % thats going from 93.5% to 104.5% and when combined with the other addon it would be 110%, also, its the 10% addon+cold creek whiskey+monitor and abuse that made them change it the ADS speed addon, which is still weird, but whatever)
Slinger used to take 0.25 seconds to aim and the same amount of time to stop aiming, meaning it takes him half a second to do the whole action. When he's ADSing he moves at 60 something % movement speed, i forget the actual number. He does lose distance even when doing this, and he cannot aim 3 times per second, which would be inefficient anyway. That's just not how Deathslinger players play. Could he zone you by ADSing? yes, you'd need to make a read depending on your situation. Can he still do it? Yes, he can but now he doesn't even need to stop ADSing to zone you. You, as a survivor are left in almost the exact same position as before. This change has fixed nothing, and I'd argue there wasn't even anything to be fixed.
Outside of this ridiculous scenario which barely happens and isn't effective anyway: In the open, you should get hit anyways, but you can still be tricky with your movement to throw the slinger off. Generally speaking you should know slinger will try to shoot you as you'll make a corner, but that also depends on your distance from him. On tiles, he might fake his shot or he might commit to the shot as you're making the corner and you can use that info + your own understanding of how slinger plays to make a read.
Because Slinger's projectile is so thin, minor movements from the survivor at medium range can absolutely evade your shot. At short range, like 5m or less. sure. past that and you really have to make a read on whether or not the survivor is gonna have a twitchy finger. I completely disagree with what you said about the attacker needing to have the responsibility of predicting their opponent, this literally gives "free evasion". Both roles should have to predict what the other is going to do, period. Putting that all on the attacker is hypocritical.
There was never such a thing as "free hits" with Slinger. This garbage of "the opponent's input doesn't matter" is complete and utter bullshit. Any Slinger player, could tell you 100% that a survivor that knows what they are doing is way harder to hit and can lead you on a way longer chase consistently compared to a survivor that doesn't know what they're doing. The problem is that if you can't run a killer for 5000 billion minutes while the killer's skill is completely useless against you then survivors scream that there's "nO cOuNTeRpLay!!!!".
I absolutely disagree with you that the nerf was needed. it addressed nothing. it accomplished nothing. it made the killer a drag to play. And it only ever tried to cater to survivors that don't know what the ######### they're doing, as so many ######### things in this pile of trash of a game do.
If i hear someone arguing from "FUN" when the discussion is about balance I'm gonna flip every single table in the universe with fury. How can you not get it through your skulls already that fun is subjective. I had a lot of fun facing Deathslinger precisely because, if I was constantly and consistently avoiding his shots, that that meant that I was 100% in the slinger player's head and I understood what he was going to do. This is the most advanced for of counterplay that exists.
The nerf to DS was massively impactful, what the ######### are you on about?! It literally means you can no longer save your teammate in the killer's face cuz you have a shield?! It was not about annoyance. It was about the survivors being able to do pretty much everything to advance their objective and still have a safeguard. it's a balance issue, not an annoyance issue.
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NOED is not toxic whatsoever. If you wanna use it, just do it. It gives you a significant power boost at the end of the game. Pretty useful considering how fast gens can go.
The problem is that NOED is a poorly designed perk. It gives you a second chance at the match and a massive boost for no requirement on your part whatsoever. You don't have to outplay survivors at all, you don't have to meet any requirement, put any effort whatsoever. If survivors don't do bones, NOED is there to save you at the end.
I don't like this design philosophy. It's the same "second chance" design philosophy that brings about the worst things survivors have in their meta.
However, it's not your responsibility to police yourself. It's the devs responsibility to fix their poorly designed garbage.
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No it absolutely wasn't and it shows a design double standard.
The devs wanted survivors to have clear, absolute feedback on when slinger was going to shoot so they could rEaCT, because prediction is apparently too advanced a form of counterplay.
The devs failed at fixing that problem, because as a survivor you still have no idea when Deathsllinger is going to shoot once he aims, you just now have a more obvious tell of when he is LIKELY to shoot.
In the process, they made Deathslinger feel clunky and unresponsive to play. They killed his potential to be reactive to certain survivor plays, and made it impossible for him to hit survivors he would have been able to hit before as they were about to reach certain corners.
They also made it so that the 50/50 is now on you. Now it's your responsibility to not only aim, but to also predict if the survivor is gonna twitch to the left or right, if the survivor is gonna run in a straight line, if the survivor is gonna move a little to the left and then stop, etc. Your weapon isn't hitscan. It's not just your aim that counts, but also your ability to predict survivor movement.
The motive behind wanting to give deathslinger a more obvious tell for survivors is hypocritical, because there is no such intention for the other side. The devs will never give killers a tell to where survivors are gonna move before they do it. They want survivor to feel snappy and responsive, which is good, I just wish they extended the same courtesy to killer.
That's not even talking about the horrid nerf to his TR. Survivors that couldn't be bothered paying attention complained, and so Deathslinger was nerfed. And now survivors get such a massive warning that he is close, that if they run as soon as they hear his TR it will take Deathslinger 35 seconds just to catch up to max range which is a shot almost not worth taking. In reality it'd take about half a gen's worth of time for Deathslinger just to catch up to a survivor if they run when they hear his TR. It's stupid.
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The entirety of survivor gameplay is designed around not interacting with the killer at all...the only thing I can possibly think of that requires survivors to interact with the killer is when a survivor body blocks for another, but just like chases it's pretty much optional.
Main objective: Stay away from the killer and hold M1
Secondary objective: Stay away from the killer and hold M1
Interactions with other survivors: Preferably have the killer be far away from you and hold M1
Chases are the biggest way killers can interact with survivors, and it's up to the killer to get them, and it's not advantageous to the killer to get them with several survivors. This is a core design flaw in this game, and at least one of my biggest problems with it.
Boon totems are just another thing to add to the pile of things survivors get to do to help their team that barely requires any effort other than holding m1 and that definitely, 100% doesn't require them to interact with or outplay the killer at all.