NarkoTri1er
NarkoTri1er
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bait?
- DH and MFT are still strong perks, but right now they are at a spot where you can at least call them balanced.
- Apart from old Eruption, first iteration of Ruin and maybe CoB + Overcharge meta there are no killer perks that are remotely close to the power of old DH and MFT
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872014#Comment_3872014
- You're going to try and gaslight that "only 5" maps have been made smaller and/or got the ole "reworked tiles" treatment? Just from looking at prior patch notes on the wiki I can list 14 that now have fewer tiles than before, as well as at least 4 that had smaller 2nd variations added. That doesn't include maps that kept the same number of tiles but had the shape changed to make them easier for killers. That also doesn't include maps that had pallets removed and tiles replaced with empty garbage clutter. That also doesnt include newer maps that dont need to be reworked because they released in a trash state with small size and garbage tiles. We still going with 5 here??
- Show me an example of a pvp game where over 9 years of release, the average playerbase of only one side had its skill level decrease over time. I'd really like to hear your explanation for how, after thousands of hours of practice, survivors have somehow just regressed in terms of map knowledge, mind gaming loops, game sense, and mechanical skill.
1. i am talking about maps that have number of tiles lowered and made somewhat less frustrating to play on. I am of course excluding Eyrie which is still the most survivor sided map with safest tiles to ever exist in this game.Ormond Resort is a honorable mention too since it didn't really lose any of it's properties from the mini rework.
2. more basekit ways to deal with opponents means more autopilot playing of the game meaning skill gets toned down. You can't play e.g once a day and expect to be a good player. Also, you can't expect to do scrims every day and be absolutely good, take a month or even longer break and still be as good as you used to be.
In case of average pub player, SBMM, or i should better say lack of it, has pumped up egos of so many players thinking "ohh i am playing at top MMR and i am constantly losing, this game is sided to the role my opponents are playing".
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3871887#Comment_3871887
What looks like survivor skill "deteriorating" is often a result of crap reworked maps having no resources to extend chases.
ohh yeah, the good ol' excuse for people lasting so short in chase, the mighty "maps are getting smaller and have less resources" even though 5 maps in total are prone to this argument. What about the other 54? Do you maybe want to tell me that 54 maps are not enough to pull the average chase speed above 20s? Dude this is just plain coping with lack of self awareness in the game, the easiest thing you can do when you lose is constantly blame game and your opponents and never turn back to your mistakes and mistakes of your team.
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@Rogue11 said:
Slugging became infinitely stronger when BHVR collected half the pallets and bulldozed every useful tile on reworked maps so they could meet their 20 second chase goal. Why wouldn't you slug when you can down another survivor faster than a single health state heal?
no, slugging didn't become infinitely stronger, in fact, it barely got any stronger at all. Forcing hooks is what got punished more and more over the time by game design. At the point where you have to think about everything that awaits you when survivor is on hook/gets unhooked, why would you force hook instantly?
Besides, skill of average survivor player didn't purely just stagnate, it deteriorated a lot over time. 20s chases aren't just a modern thing, they are a thing for years already.
P.S. Healing is still very strong meta survivor aspect, with syringes still being gigaoverpowered.
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the perk was already strong at 3s, 5s was literally only because awful players complained because perk has a skill floor in terms of knowing where to force a down and aren't aware how to deal with tunneling Nurses, Billys and Blights. This perk needed something like disabling killer's power for additional 5+ seconds, which would actually be a counter to tunneling S-tiers.
Many players suggested it, but "casual" players won and now you have perk that doesn't really counter tunneling S-tiers, but does overwhelmingly good job against all other killers.
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@Aceislife said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3871040#Comment_3871040
The issue is how well the perk pairs with Pain Resonance and Dead Man's Switch, both some of the strongest killer perks in the game. Killers are carried by the combination of these, or one of them + Grim Embrace so often in my experience, they can completely turn the game around and there's not a lot survivors can do. Especially if it's one of those killer players that treat public matches like they're playing competitive.
The counter to these perks would be lasting a long time in a chase but many killers are designed so it's extremely hard to do that, or you'd need to get lucky for it to happen. Also the sweats running this build are going to tunnel regardless, but that's a different story, survivors have decent perks to counter tunneling,
Pain Res and DMS can somewhat be countered, but Grim Embrace forces the gen to be blocked, which will force Dead Man's Switch to be activated, which is some BS, and there's nothing you can do against it. You'll be forced to switch gens and start again, which takes a lot of time.
it used to be a gigastrong synergy with Pain Res prior to Pain Res nerf, it's still good now, but i think nowadays DMS is pulling the strings in this case far more intensive than Pain Res.
Eruption, Grim and DMS meta already there
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3871325#Comment_3871325
Maybe it's because having these options as perks is like a absoloutley awful game design.
awful game design that is pushed thanks to bringing many problems related to hooking/spreading hooks that just made those not that worth playing anymore unless you are willingly handicapping yourself.
BHVR has done basically nothing to fix the core issue around tunneling (and slugging) by making hook aspect of the game so irrelevant for killer, but instead they just kept bringing constant bandaids.
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@Roco45 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3870780#Comment_3870780
You're ignoring that DC's don't count in stats and the majority of SoloQ games have DC's. So really that 40% is an inflated stat of the best SoloQ players, not reflective of the actual player base.
you are ignoring that going next on hook counts towards stats, and going next on hook is way, way more common in soloQ than DCing because people want a free card out of the match asap, but with 0 punishments
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since we have StB in the game as the final step into countering tunneling (absolutely brutal perk with all the other anti-tunneling perks in existence) and yall still complain about tunneling existing, we can just make a conclusion that yall don't wanna learn how to not counter tunneling, but actually play the game. Yall just want autopilot features to deal with your opponent using specific strategies because you just don't wanna be bothered by actually learning specific aspects of the game and getting better to make experience for both yourself and your team better.
I knew this would happen some time after StB introduction, even with the fact you were acting like "finally some strong stuff for anti-tunnel" (which it truly is) but then you realized it actually has skill floor so you just won't get any use out of it
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@R3b3l54TTV said:
Once upon a time I could play this game solo and have a great mix of good and bad games, even without being able to communicate. Now, I can't survive a single game in over 10 matches for tunneling, proxy camping hooks, lethal pursuer, increased hit box, and an inability to communicate with anyone in game. My friends used to play but they refuse to play anymore because of the same reasons.
Once upon a time this game went both ways. Now we are nothing but helpless and loosing faith in game that used to be a lot of fun to win and lose.
If devi could just design a version where survivors actually get to fight back that'd be great.
teammates going next on hook.
Matchmaking teaming you up with 10h players.
Teammates being allergic to gens and just playing for the sake of challenges.
Teammates making the most ridiculous macro mistakes that put their team into huge disadvantage.
But somehow, killer is the one to blame? Well, you see, as long as you keep basically ignoring behavior of your soloQ teammates and putting the blame onto killer, your average soloQ teammate will never be aware nor feel remorse when they play in any way that puts their team at disadvantage. They will be like "ohh, my behavior will just go unnoticed since killer will always be the one to blame" and will just continue with this pattern of gameplay.
SoloQ has literally reached the state it is in rn exactly because of this. And it will keep getting worse because of this.
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trust me, Scourge Hook: Gift of Pain is so much better option for him since it also has punishment in terms of action speed debuff for healing, which is also extremely important against him.
THO, you can combine these two and wreak havoc, follow it with Jagged Compass and you'll have every hook at your disposal
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3869736#Comment_3869736
Why would you point out all those basekit tools to defend against tunneling and camping while also declaring that you and many other Killers have resorted to slugging specifically to deny Survivor those tools?
Also those anti-tunnel/anti-camp/anti-slug tools only work for Killers who just want to apply a little bit of pressure, but they do nothing against those who hardcore tunnel the first person at five gens or want to bleed out the entire team from the get-go.
Why would you point out all those basekit tools to defend against tunneling and camping while also declaring that you and many other Killers have resorted to slugging specifically to deny Survivor those tools?
because yall are still literally complaining about tunneling in masses???
Also those anti-tunnel/anti-camp/anti-slug tools only work for Killers who just want to apply a little bit of pressure, but they do nothing against those who hardcore tunnel the first person at five gens or want to bleed out the entire team from the get-go.
in case of tunneling: there is no way any remotely decent team, no matter if it's a soloQ or SWF would fall fall victim to "tunneling at 5 gens". You can't tell me that, by the time first surv gets found, gets in chase, loses first and then second health state, gets carried to hook, spends almost one whole stage on hook and gets unhooked and then the legit moment when you can tell that killer is tunneling, no gens are done by any team that has basic game knowledge. Especially if that first survivor has a decent chase time.
Taking that in mind, tunneling AT 5 GENS basically doesn't exist anywhere other than lobbies where people will just intentionally grief the match for their teammates.
In case of slugging, we all agree that plain bleeding out just to be a jerk is cringe, but people are calling slugging in general, even if it comes at result of biggest mistakes of survivors or simply things like unhookable builds, generally cringe, meaning that people don't just hate toxic iterations of strategies, people hate any strategy in it's optimal form cringe just because they don't wanna improve at the gane
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@BuffDH said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3869713#Comment_3869713
No idea why you say this is bait when what he said is the truth. Humping survivors on the ground should be illegal and the devs should give them a permanent ban and pursue legal actions for sexual assault.
every person that is baiting uses this "truth" pattern of post making, you need to be more innovative mate
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subtle would be if it was barely noticeable, speed at which this Claudette for example was moving while holding flashlight is significantly higher even than merely with Champion of Light equipped.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3869724#Comment_3869724
basekit BT + plethora of perks that are enough to finally put an end to tunneling complaints at this point.
BT is, was, and always has been anti camping. 10 seconds is absolutely nothing... Except if the killer is actively near the hook.
It's also completely ignored if the killer can either count to 10, or .. it's also completely incompatible with your "plethora of perks" for anti tunneling. Since nearly everything except DS is endurance based, even killers who can't count to ten can just weaponize base kit BT to disable all of your "anti tunnel" endurance completely.
And DS is just a polite suggestion. There's no perk, mechanic, or item in this game that stops tunneling. Nothing. All anything does is add a couple seconds to your tunneling experience. Wouldn't want to actually inconvenience the tunneling killer or dissuade them from that choice.
the feature is there to prevent toxic use of camping, not camping as a strategy
Sorry no. It's not anti camp, it's anti FACE camp. That's been the response to "this mechanic seems ineffective" since they announced it.
You can't just suddenly say it's an anti camping feature that should always work because your want it to count. This is completely circumvented by the killer standing 11m from the hook. So basically the killer has to choose to allow this to do literally anything (and thus, it does nothing).
so? Should i complain because i always have to bring Corrupt, two slowdowns and have one perk slot left for any other perk i want? No, i don't complain because i'm actually playing the game.
Congratulations, you're the one killer who doesn't complain about this. Gen rushing is only possible as a response to toolboxes. Survivors can't physically gen rush you without perks and items specifically for it.
Camping, tunneling, and slugging are base kit for killers. The only protections at all are perks, and mild suggestions to "please, don't do that mr killer" that are actually dead simple to bypass.
Where's the survivor version of corrupt btw? There isn't any way to, say, prevent one person from being hooked twice before the first gen is done (or something). Survivors physically have to leave gens during CI, and there's no way to circumvent this effect. It's not like standing slightly farther away from the gen removes the entity claws.
i thought secondary objectives are fun to have?
This is just being disingenuous. You either don't realize that the giga buffed thrill was obscenely overpowered and could basically win the game for the killer (which seems unlikely), or you do realize that and are just basically lying to be deliberately inciteful at this point.
BT is, was, and always has been anti camping. 10 seconds is absolutely nothing... Except if the killer is actively near the hook.
It's also completely ignored if the killer can either count to 10, or .. it's also completely incompatible with your "plethora of perks" for anti tunneling. Since nearly everything except DS is endurance based, even killers who can't count to ten can just weaponize base kit BT to disable all of your "anti tunnel" endurance completely.
10s to run to nearest safe/filler tile, not to brainlessly hold W in a deadzone and wonder how killer just counted to 10 behind your back and downed you.
Sorry no. It's not anti camp, it's anti FACE camp. That's been the response to "this mechanic seems ineffective" since they announced it.
You can't just suddenly say it's an anti camping feature that should always work because your want it to count. This is completely circumvented by the killer standing 11m from the hook. So basically the killer has to choose to allow this to do literally anything (and thus, it does nothing).
Bubba standing in front of the hook, nodding to you and eventually hitting on hook, waiting for you to die on it. One of examples and a reason why anti-facecamp meter was implemented.
Congratulations, you're the one killer who doesn't complain about this. Gen rushing is only possible as a response to toolboxes. Survivors can't physically gen rush you without perks and items specifically for it.
People who complain about genrushing in general are the ones that fail to understand how crucial first chase, map pressure and when to do what is important.
Camping, tunneling, and slugging are base kit for killers. The only protections at all are perks, and mild suggestions to "please, don't do that mr killer" that are actually dead simple to bypass.
same as stealthing, looping and sticking to gens. Not toxic at the base at all, all of those have their given use at a given moment, but can grow up into toxic ways to play.
Where's the survivor version of corrupt btw? There isn't any way to, say, prevent one person from being hooked twice before the first gen is done (or something). Survivors physically have to leave gens during CI, and there's no way to circumvent this effect. It's not like standing slightly farther away from the gen removes the entity claws.
there is no survivor version of Corrupt because they don't need one. Corrupt is basically a necessity for almost every single killer due to things like time until first chase can be found and determining 3-gen location.
This is just being disingenuous. You either don't realize that the giga buffed thrill was obscenely overpowered and could basically win the game for the killer (which seems unlikely), or you do realize that and are just basically lying to be deliberately inciteful at this point.
i am not talking about previous Thrill, i was the one to vouch for it's nerf too because it was extremely obnoxious to face.
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@vBlossom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3869707#Comment_3869707
What kind of basekit anti-tunneling is there? Seems not to work at all given how many people are complaining about tunneling.
Same with anti-slug, it's just Unbreakable (because FTP+BU got nerfed, same with WGLF) which only works once and if 2-3 people are downed this match is already lost.
It's anti-face-camp, because killer can still be near hook and this laughably bad progressbar won't fill up.
Also ofc, lemme bring dedicated perks to somehow counter killers that play scummy and I can do nothing about it otherwise.
And then there will be 1 perk slot that I can use for anything else.
Or devs buff another perk like Thrill of the Hunt and now I have to bring 6 (out of 4 available <3) perks to the match to counter yet another otherwise uncounterable dumb killer combo.
What kind of basekit anti-tunneling is there? Seems not to work at all given how many people are complaining about tunneling.
basekit BT + plethora of perks that are enough to finally put an end to tunneling complaints at this point. If you really struggle with tunneling woth the latest StB iteration, you are just plain refusing to improve at this game and are expecting tunneling to have an autopilot kind of sorting out.
Same with anti-slug, it's just Unbreakable (because FTP+BU got nerfed, same with WGLF) which only works once and if 2-3 people are downed this match is already lost.
Unbreakable, Boon:Exponential, Soul Guard (with hex perks being used so often nowadays, you are literally giving yourself perma self pickups).
On the other side, slugging is literally encouraged by all perk designs, mechanics and playstyles that are simply not rewarding killer for hooking anymore, but instead straight punishing them.
It's anti-face-camp, because killer can still be near hook and this laughably bad progressbar won't fill up.
the feature is there to prevent toxic use of camping, not camping as a strategy. Plus, not killer's fault that your teammates are lurking for the unhook and are slow8ng down the progress bar.
Also ofc, lemme bring dedicated perks to somehow counter killers that play scummy and I can do nothing about it otherwise.
scummy play in the rulebook: any kind of optimal play that is being optimized for the win. Besides, if you don't do anything to counter specific strategies, don't complain that they are being used so much, because that's the reason why they are meta. Because people are refusing to counter them.
And then there will be 1 perk slot that I can use for anything else.
so? Should i complain because i always have to bring Corrupt, two slowdowns and have one perk slot left for any other perk i want? No, i don't complain because i'm actually playing the game.
Or devs buff another perk like Thrill of the Hunt and now I have to bring 6 (out of 4 available <3) perks to the match to counter yet another otherwise uncounterable dumb killer combo.
i thought secondary objectives are fun to have? I thought it's boring to just sit and repair gens? Besides, time to learn that you are quite often not supposed to cleanse hexes, but i guess that "if it glows it goes" mentality is so engraved deep into mind that you'd not care about NOT cleansing specifing totems being the actual optimal play instead of cleansing them (Plaything, Undying, Ruin so that you can deny Penti value to the killer).
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@vBlossom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3869679#Comment_3869679
If you do that people would just stop playing this game and go play something else.
Current dbd player numbers are quite low honestly and given that there are some alternatives, people would just play something else.
And, of course, spend their money somewhere else.
If BHVR does nothing this number would decline. Try to persuade someone then to come back to game that you remembered were big slugging, tunneling, waste of time simulator and a lot of changes were in killer's favour.
a lot of changes were literally brought to catter to casual players on both sides, you got plethora of anti-slugging perks, basekit anti-tunneling, basekit anti-camping and somehow it all boils down to your teammates doing wrong things (and ofc you too).
So constantly blaming killers and devs for balance when soloQ is literally fest of people doing vast things to throw your games is highly hypocritical. I can't even count how many times my soloQ matches were lost purely thanks to my teammate(s) throwing the match in any way
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@fixblitzskin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/436603/nowhere-to-hide
Nowhere to hide doesn’t make chase easier or make the game easier. Nowhere to hide just makes chase happen more which is the fun part. The most boring part for killer is trying to find immersed survivors who hide all game. Especially if you want to spread hook and are forced to tunnel because you don’t want to actually play the game ( chase ) since doing gens is also boring and being chased is fun. Nowhere to hide should only make you angry if you play stealthy which isn’t even an effective way to play.
yeah but let's be honest, stealth is also strategical part of this game (stealthing 4th stack of Grim, stealthing during Oni's power, stealthing while on death hook etc.).
NTH removes any gamesense related aspect of killer tracking survivor by logical clues near a gen, and is just a pure nuts on killers like Nurse.
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@FearNoEvil said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868961#Comment_3868961
From all the upvotes Cryptic has gotten, it's already normalized and engraved in their brains. Dead by Daylight will never recover and it will stagnate.
i know, that's just how the dbd community is. Lack of proper ranking system in this game severely affected mentalities of people, thinking they are playing at some very high MMR so they can throw a tantrum over game balance when they lose instead of looking at every possible chain of mistakes they/their teammates make during matches
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@vBlossom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3869021#Comment_3869021
Literally people tell you their issue with current state of the game, a lot of people say same thing - that matches are often unwinnable and killer main on forum says that "no they aren't".
I don't care and your comment won't change my mind, I have almost 2k hours playing dbd mostly as surv so I know if matches are unwinnable or not. You can write whatever you want but you won't change my mind, thx.
i don't have to change your opinion to understand that big majority of dbd playerbase from both sides will rather complain about "not being able to win any match" than sit down and try to understand what mistakes they were making in matches where they lost.
Problem starts when those players start talking about balance when their perception of it is heavily distorted due to refusal to improve and learn from your own mistakes.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868961#Comment_3868961
What will help with the problem is addressing why people do it, and I just explained one reason why. As others have said, more people give up because the match has reached an unwinnable state. Going next just because they were the first one downed is much less common than people claim on these forums, as also stated by others in this thread.
And is the "slightest error that can doom the entire team" in the room with us rn? Almost every single match gets doomed because one soloQ teammate decides to force their team into an early 3v1, that's not "slightest error", that's hardcore griefing your team
I can't count how many fully played out games we've lost when we should have won because one of us made a slight error. Also much more common than someone giving up.
What will help with the problem is addressing why people do it, and I just explained one reason why. As others have said, more people give up because the match has reached an unwinnable state. Going next just because they were the first one downed is much less common than people claim on these forums, as also stated by others in this thread.
- people are generally burnt out from the game when it's usually the only game they play for prolonged periods of time. I have been taking a break 3-4 times already in order to cure my burnout every time i had it (and it usually happens when i start playing more than 5 matches a day).
- 3v1 at 2-3 gens is not an unwinnable state. Being downed in first minute of the match is not the moment when match becomes unwinnable.
- Out of 20 survivor matches, 8 happen to be survivor giving up on hook early into the match. As killer, there is basically a 1 in 2 matches where one survivor will get downed extremely fast and give up on hook.
I can't count how many fully played out games we've lost when we should have won because one of us made a slight error. Also much more common than someone giving up.
Locking your team into a 3-gen or similar move is not a slight mistake, it's a fatal mistake. Slight mistakes usually get punished by losing a health state/getting downed
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@DancewithmeKate said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868967#Comment_3868967
It's not even about to nerfing killers. It's just general balance.
Maps are nerfed to ground and most of them have trash loops which guaranteed hits. There is only few maps left to having fun loops. And you will notice survivors are usually using map offerings for those maps.
Tunnelling one survivor out and making game 3 v 1 is pretty easy and free. Killer is not getting enough punishment, even if survivor have anti-tunnel perks.
Balancing game around SWFs while giving nothing to solo survivors. Not even reworking problematic perks like Knock Out.
Killer can make couple of mistakes and then they can still make it come back with some snowball and slowdown. But survivor games feels like it's not possible to comeback. Especially it's very hopeless when killer tunnel someone out and make game 3 v 1 at 2 - 3 gens left.
If you have enough DbD knowledge you know what games are winnable and what are not. So even i don't support what they are doing, i understand why they are going to next instead of wasting their time for losed match.
Maps are nerfed to ground and most of them have trash loops which guaranteed hits. There is only few maps left to having fun loops. And you will notice survivors are usually using map offerings for those maps.
3-4 maps get shrinked and yall start exaggerating it as if half of the maps have been nerfed into the ground? Most maps are literally still obnoxious to play as killer, e.g. Eyrie which is still the most survivor sided map even after it's rework.
Tunnelling one survivor out and making game 3 v 1 is pretty easy and free. Killer is not getting enough punishment, even if survivor have anti-tunnel perks.
you know what is even easier? Going on next on hook when killer first hooks you and then act like that isn't the problem with the game (or eventually accusing killer of tunneling after you/your teammate went next on 1st hook, which i unironically saw happening too)
Balancing game around SWFs while giving nothing to solo survivors. Not even reworking problematic perks like Knock Out.
- Literally so many aspects have been improved for better soloQ QoL, there are still some needed, but things are okayish even in this state.
- soloQ has become extremely unreliable sample to be used for balancing due to soloQ players extremely often having completely different goals, skill levels and mentality in matches. SWFs at least play as a team and you won't have that one teammate that will ragequit out of nowhere. Also, they will play for one mutual objective. Knock Out is problematic for soloQ tho and should be reworked.
Killer can make couple of mistakes and then they can still make it come back with some snowball and slowdown. But survivor games feels like it's not possible to comeback. Especially it's very hopeless when killer tunnel someone out and make game 3 v 1 at 2 - 3 gens left.
against a team that knows how to play the game, it's enough to mess up the first chase and lose yourself a match. Only case when killer can make "couple" of mistakes, snowball and win is when survivors make continuous chains of mistakes.
All in all, survivor mistakes are much more forgiving than killer's.
If you have enough DbD knowledge you know what games are winnable and what are not. So even i don't support what they are doing, i understand why they are going to next instead of wasting their time for losed match.
people who have enough DbD knowledge will never manage to have a teammate completely tunneled out before minimum of 3 gens have been done.
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@DancewithmeKate said:
Solo survivor is not miserable because of give ups. It's miserable because game is favoring killers too much.
Survivors are giving up exactly for this reason. When this game was favoring survivors, killers was dc'ing a lot as well.
so...forcing an extremely early 3v1 is somehow not a problem and not the reason why soloQ sucks when your teammate forces it, but it is a problem when killer forces it?
I really hope you are aware that you have just completely legitimized tunneling.
Survivors are giving up exactly for this reason. When this game was favoring survivors, killers was dc'ing a lot as well.
Killers never gave up nearly as often as survivors because they don't have a mechanic that would let them just go next with 0 punishment for doing it :D
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@BroRespectTheBoop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868831#Comment_3868831
pushes glasses up AcTUALLy.. Staying in the match longer gives you more blood points.
standing still at the gate and waiting for killer to come see you leave yields close to 0 BPs for you. At this point you arr just trying to make excuse for somebody trying to ego over a losing killer.
@PleaseRewind said:
While I don't take issue with this like the OP does I'm not a big fan of the "force them out" retort. They want you to do that just so you can see their butt dance. I won't give them the satisfaction. I'm quite happy to walk around letting them waste time doing their dancing that I'll never see.
It would be funny if there was a "yeet action" If all survivors are in the exit area the killer can press a button an all survivors get flung out the exit.
exactly. People are standing at the gates because they know you are "helpless" and you can do nothing to get a kill. They will enjoy watching your final moves to desperately push them out by one hit, endurance hit, another surv hit etc., they will watch killer behave like a fish out of the water because that entertains them, even when their opponent is a clear newbie at the killer role.
It can be compared to bleeding out because both of those are cases of people egoing over their opponent and being unnecessarily toxic at the moment when they are aware of the fact that they have already won.
If we can have anti-facecamp meter existing to prevent toxic kind of gameplay, why don't we have giga sped up EGC at the moment when every alive survivor remaining on the trial is at the exit gate? Ohh but guess what, even if this was a feature, people would still intentionally get outside of the gate just a bit so that EGC timer slows down because it would guess what, register not every alive survivor being inside the gate zone
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@CrypticGirl said:
We're talking about a game where the slightest Survivor error can doom the entire team (even without "going next"), and even finishing all of the gens doesn't necessarily mean they win. Is it any wonder why people go next?
ohh yeah, let's make further excuses to justify unsportsmanlike conduct, that will definitely help with the problem!
And is the "slightest error that can doom the entire team" in the room with us rn? Almost every single match gets doomed because one soloQ teammate decides to force their team into an early 3v1, that's not "slightest error", that's hardcore griefing your team
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3867534#Comment_3867534
Kinda have to poke holes in this one:
First there's about 5 of those perks from both lists combined that would be considered "meta" by alot of ppl (can't actually remember when we last saw a flip flop combo other than a kyf).
Second for most of that first list (those that work off hook) don't really do much except help against a killer who's near/coming back for them aka camping/trying to tunnel. Off the record and DS self explanatory, babysitter to zoom away, resurgence and second wind to quickly heal before the killer returns, etc.
That second list has a couple flaws, mostly in breakdown and background player. The first would fit more in the first list as it works off hook and second on its own doesn't deny hooks, which would be flashlights or bangs. This is just us being picky though.
First there's about 5 of those perks from both lists combined that would be considered "meta" by alot of ppl (can't actually remember when we last saw a flip flop combo other than a kyf).
i intentionally put Flip Flop under just "denying hook" and not "meta" category, it's not meta at all, just plain unhealthy for the game. Only 1st list are meta perks (not necessarily in average soloQ pub match because people usually don't know how to get value of perks)
Second for most of that first list (those that work off hook) don't really do much except help against a killer who's near/coming back for them aka camping/trying to tunnel. Off the record and DS self explanatory, babysitter to zoom away, resurgence and second wind to quickly heal before the killer returns, etc.
all of those perks have much more optimal uses out of cases of camping and tunneling.
Reassurance for example also saves you time for a save even when killer is not camping.
Off the Record and DS have an extremely popular way of being used in very aggressive way, which is most popular in European region.
That second list has a couple flaws, mostly in breakdown and background player. The first would fit more in the first list as it works off hook and second on its own doesn't deny hooks, which would be flashlights or bangs. This is just us being picky though.
Breakdown creates hook deadzones, which are extremely problematic in cases where you are playing against SWFs intentionally playing that way.
BGP is not only for flashbang and flashlight saves, but for another kind of saves, much more powerful than these two: pallet saves.
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@BroRespectTheBoop said:
If they arent going to leave:
A) Force them out?
B) Force them out?
C) Force them out?
You know what survivors are tired of that we have no control over? Being slugged. Don't waste our time if you aren't going to hook us.that's what they want lol.
People are not waiting at the gates just for the sake of just standing there to actually do something, they are waiting for killer to come and watch them leave. And they are completely ready to waste almost whole duration of EGC by standing and doing nothing (eventually only spamming fast vaults to attract killer's attention) for that goal if killer just doesn't want to give them that satisfaction.
I understand resetting and preparing for a save during EGC, i would do that always as survivor, but staying just for this purpose is nothing but a jerk move.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
The only time tunnelling is necessary is in a comp situation but when I play killer I NEVER tunnel unless they BM excessively and maybe at end game in certain scenarios.
Most survivors are casual players with very low skill, so you don't need to tunnel, it is just some people have zero empathy for the other side and will do anything for an easy win.
While I am a survivor main, I have played thousands of hours on both sides and I guess I have empathy as when I see a killer struggling I will actually choose to NOT flashbang/flashlight save or hold off hitting them with Head On etc and most certainly will not bag them at the exit.
The problem is you always have to account for the scummiest 1% and I am all for anti tunnelling measures being introduced even more so than what is available already.
The only time tunnelling is necessary is in a comp situation but when I play killer I NEVER tunnel unless they BM excessively and maybe at end game in certain scenarios.
tunneling is a big 50/50, you either have to get a really quick first hook in order to make it work or you'd need to have stars aligned in your favor for that survivor to not reset nor be able to waste more of your time in any way. It's not simply a "comp" strategy, it's just the most optimal way to play in pubs where most people last short in chases.
Most survivors are casual players with very low skill, so you don't need to tunnel, it is just some people have zero empathy for the other side and will do anything for an easy win.
if my opponent burns a map offering, i will sweat ofc, because map offerings are literally calling for a sweaty match.
While I am a survivor main, I have played thousands of hours on both sides and I guess I have empathy as when I see a killer struggling I will actually choose to NOT flashbang/flashlight save or hold off hitting them with Head On etc and most certainly will not bag them at the exit.
why tho? Flashbang/flashlight saves are not toxic at all, no matter if killer is struggling or not.
The problem is you always have to account for the scummiest 1% and I am all for anti tunnelling measures being introduced even more so than what is available already.
it's not a 1%, quite big portion of this community is going for optimal play, i mean it's a PvP game afterall.
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@jajay119 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866876#Comment_3866876
can you please explain to me what this abundance of meta hook perks there are for survivor?
Meta perks that have hook conditions/work off the hook
Deliverance
Resurgence
Reassurance
Dead Hard
Second Wind
Babysitter
Wicked
Off the Record
Decisive Strike
We'll Make It
Shoulder the Burden
Perks that indirectly affect hooking in terms of actively denying it:
Saboteur
Breakdown
Breakout
Flip Flop + Power Struggle
Background Player
Boil Over
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you can still crouch tech on PTB, people already tested it.
Imho, removing crouch tech is just another step made towards removing skill expression from the game
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866876#Comment_3866876
we are constantly talking about strength of hooks in survivor favor
You can talk about it but that simply isn't true or reality.
Hooking is progressing the killers objective, there are a ton of killer perks that activate on hook, and BP incentives for sacrifices on hook. There's a literal penalty for bleeding out survivors.
Fire up is getting a buff soon, but I don't hear anyone claiming that "completing gens is now in the killers favor"... Because it's ridiculous.
Hooking is progressing the killers objective, there are a ton of killer perks that activate on hook, and BP incentives for sacrifices on hook. There's a literal penalty for bleeding out survivors.
what does it being progressing killer's objective have to do with it being strong or not? I can establish a 2-4 men slug, hook everyone after and still progress the match, and it seems like you have intentionally missed my point.
Regarding perks, please name me one killer hook related perk that is even remotely on the strength level close to perks like Reassurance, Deliverance, OTR and Resurgence. If you are about to say Pain Res, that perk is not even close to being as good as it itself used to be, especially after it's latest nerf which made it just not that good to run anymore.
Fire up is getting a buff soon, but I don't hear anyone claiming that "completing gens is now in the killers favor"... Because it's ridiculous.
ohh wow, a niche perk that is barely being used is going to get buffed in order to have slight increase in use and still not be worth running, definitely a perk worth mentioning!
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it's 2025. and there are still people thinking BHVR constantly favors just one side in this game in terms of balance, wild
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@jajay119 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866659#Comment_3866659
Maps have already been made smaller across the board, hooks are way closer together than they used to be and now can never break permanently. How can you want MORE buffs? This is a completely unjustified comment
there is only a small portion of maps that have actually been made smaller.
hooks are way closer together than they used to be and now can never break permanently. How can you want MORE buffs? This is a completely unjustified comment
we are constantly talking about strength of hooks in survivor favor taking in mind how many hook related meta perks on survivor side there are and how hooking is actually more beneficial for survivors nowadays than for the killer, and you are still talking about hooks proximity and hook respawn (which is introduced as a bandaid for people forcing deadzones so that killer can't hook them)?
You really, and i mean really have 0 idea about what the core problem is, this statement from you absolutely proved it.
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please, just please, if there isn't anything being done about hooking/spreading hooks being buffed, 3v1 should NOT receive any buffs on survivor side. First fix the core problem and then, if tunneling still keeps existing, buff 3v1 for survivors
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i wouldn't add a "force bleedout" option that would make one survivor able to decide their own fate, but an opportunity to give up as a team would be very good addition
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@xCakeStick said:
Just don't play any Killer then if you're having miserable matches.
you can say the same about survivors who go next on hook and be correct. BUT, why is giving up on hook considered completely okay, while for killer it is "DC or have your time wasted"? None should be allowed, but such a loud part of community is literally defending giving up on hook while acting that killer players having hard time should just...cope with it
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ahh yeah, the "nerf Pig" gimmick is back
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since they decided not to care about the actual visual accessibility problem, i just hope this is improved visibility of deep wound timer and not some "anticamp meter" stuff that will make you able to stack endurance during chase, which would make it ridiculous to face after the most horrifying endurance stacking meta we already had
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865955#Comment_3865955
Are you just trolling now?
You came in here, referring to the MMR system as to what is defined as a win.
And I point out to you, that in the stuff that you yourself linked, it says that players get MMR for a KILL, not for 'beating a team'. This is why you lose less MMR for a 0K than you do for a 1K: Because you gained MMR once to offset the fact that you lose MMR three times. It's also why you gain less MMR for a 3K than you do for a 4K: Because you lost MMR once to offset the fact that you won MMR three times.
I don't know how much more clear I can make this for you, buddy.
Your MMR loss depends on factors like average opponent MMR, length of the match and other similar factors. You will lose most MMR on 0k, but portion of the loss will be mitigated if your opponents have a higher average MMR than your MMR value.
Core factor for MMR outcome is number of kills. Additional factors that serve as multipliers are match length, average opponent MMR and the gap in MMR between you and your opponents
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@MarbleThrone said:
Custom Game is a sandbox mode with unlimited access to add-ons and perks. It's meant to allow people to quickly test various things, explore maps, try out killer powers.
What this mode needs most of all is at least one killer bot (Trapper), so that you can also play Survivor without the need of a buddy.
But making any sort of progress available completely defeats the point, because why would anyone bother with the live queue?BHVR already stated 3-4 months ago that they are planning on introducing BP gains in custom matches (not as high as in pubs) because custom matches are mainly played for scrim/tournament purposes
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nowadays it's just simple. Survivor meta is wasting killer's time while being as efficient with your own time as survivor.
Killer meta is to attempt a snowball before too much time is wasted.
Thus, seeing that survivor meta mainly revolves around perks that are meant to waste killer's time and is tied to hooks, while spreading hooks is also a huge waste of time compared to forcing an early 3v1 (depends on survivors'chase knowledge tho), slugging and tunneling are basically two forced ways to deal with time wasted on killer side.
The biggest problem comes when BHVR doesn't look at the problem from that perspective and instead looks for a bandaid that will only suit the fun of one side, while ignoring the core problem as a whole.
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@Grigerbest said:
There are so many fun builds, killers and fun perks to use in this game, but it all goes to the waste because of the gen speed.
The higher you go with your MMR - the more you realize that gen regression perks are the best.
I'm tired using them on my killer matches.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/OYM0OJFG5X8P/1.gif
It's 3 choices:
- Use 3-4 gen regression perks.
- Use Nurse\Blight.
- Hardcore tunnel 1 out.
using full regression build is an unnecessary bottleneck when you take in mind conditions for almost every gen regression perk and capabilities of killers in general
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865433#Comment_3865433
Hatch isn't the reason why people slug for 4k. That's like saying cars cause carjackings, or laws cause crimes, or email causes phishing scams.
Slugging for 4k is possible because hatch exists, just like crimes can only exist if there are laws, carjackings can only happen if there are cars, and phishing emails can only go out if email exists.
But cars don't cause carjackings and laws don't cause people to do the things that are crimes, and email existing doesn't cause scammers to exist. In the same way, hatch doesn't cause slugging for 4k. Those things happen because of the motivation of the person taking those actions; they're looking for a certain result that they would seek even in the absence of cars or laws or emails or hatch. Slugging for 4k is possible because hatch exists, but hatch doesn't make people slug for 4k. Slugging for 4k is caused by people wanting an easy fourth kill.
And what would happen without hatch? Then when the third survivor is gone with at least one whole gen to go, there is essentially no hope for the last survivor to finish the gens and escape. But they still want to survive, so they'll often end up hiding for as long as possible. Hatch exists to prevent exactly that scenario: it's meant to give the last survivor a reason to keep playing and to avoid a long game of hide-and-seek at the end of the match. What do you want in place of hatch?
killers literally want to avoid hatch RNG scenario where 4th survivor would be able to escape thanks to lucky spawn of the hatch. Slugging for 4k completely removes the chance of hatch standoff, why did you even try implying to false equivalency when a mechanic that is literally a way for survivor to escape thanks to RNG is literally countered by forcing both of remaining survivors into a situation where hatch is impossible to reach?
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@DancewithmeKate said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865433#Comment_3865433
Slugging for 4k is another issue BHVR need to fix. And thankfully it's on their radar right now.
hopefully they fix it in the way where they won't look at constant complaining of one side about it <3
@vBlossom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865433#Comment_3865433
And how do you imagine 3v1 with 4 gens left in that scenario?
If survivors won't have any hope, they won't want playing this game and straight give up, because why bother?
It's the opposite - hatch needs to be more viable because right now killers can entirely deny it via slugging for 4k.
Survivors can see this pattern and just lose all willingness to continue playing bad match.
if hatch serves you as some kind of hope in a 3v1, you are already expressing a "no hope" losing mindset. You are basically implying on hatch as a some kind of consolation prize (which it isn't) that should be more viable to survivors.
Time for a reality check: mindset of average surv player needs to drastically change, yall are your own biggest reasons for losing.
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@DancewithmeKate said:
I am seeing so many killer mains want to remove hatch from game. So they can get easy 4ks all time. Probably kill-rates will be around 80 - 90% without hatch escapes.
question goes: why do you want hatches to remain a thing?
They are outdated.
They encourage slugging for 4k.
They are completely RNG dependant (unless you use an offering).
You are basically acting like hatch removal is nothing but "nuh uh killer buff" and not health related QoL change. No problem, people can keep slugging for 4k, don't get mad if you don't want the core of problem to be fixed.
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i am not entitled to win, yes.
But my opponents are also not entitled to me intentionally handicapping myself as much as possible in order to catter to their definition of fun and be called a "killer with personality" specifically because i'm making it as easy for my opponents as possible.
Btw, goofing off/playing with "personality" as the killer is fun for the first 10-20 games, after which it becomes gigaboring
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@Thesevenspirits said:
Let's Discuss
After a survivor is unhooked or downed a timer begins.
Anti Slug: if the survivor is not picked up before 45 seconds the activate " false unbreakable" and get up
Anti tunnel: if the survivor is unhooked and is hooked again within 1 min of being unhooked, it will not add to their health state.
Anti Camping: increase camping radius and the speed to which the camp meter fills up.
Other suggestions
I suggest an exponential increase in recovery speed per each survivor on the ground. "False unbreakable kicks in on after 45 seconds even though you are fully recovered.
The last survivor how is not on the ground activates "false Dead hard" once. He looses "false Dead hard" when there is at least two survivors up.
i have an even better idea. Autoplay button: plays the match instead of you and wins automatically
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@TonTon said:
I seen many CC and people say STB is an extremely strong perk that will change DBD.
Except in my many matches I haven't seen this perk at all except once and they just used it to go next faster.
Why is nobody using this perk?
kind of Deliverance/Reassurance syndrome. It's a very strong perk in hands of teams that know how to play the game and actually get it's value, but very bad in hand of teams that have little to no idea of how to use it properly
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@Naenia said:
Please explain to me why we are still getting penalties for dcing out of a match when a bot is put in our place? Especially now when the amount of times survivors are dealing with slugging, and over all really crummy game play from killers. I would understand more if there wasn't a bot put in our place but there is, so why should we still get punished for leaving a match we don't want to be in? Day after day, I spend hours playing DBD and as a survivor main, this game has lost it's fun. Out of ever 10 or more matches I play I can escape maybe less then a handful of those matches due to the current meta surrounded by the base kit mori AND the fact that there is more insensitive for the killer to get their 4k by any means necessary. Why should I have to stay in a match where my team is already getting slugged and tunneled off hook at FIVE GENS. Also there have been enormous times where the GAME has kicked me out and I have gotten a penalty for that. It's not fair and needs to be addressed. Why even have it set so a bot takes our place, might as well just remove that feature if people are still gonna get punished for dcing out of the game. I am so tired of going into match after match with killers that can't stand the thought of losing, of even a single person getting out so they resort to slugging just to make sure that doesn't happen or tunneling the person they just hooked right off hook OR camping to ensure no one can get them off or even if they unhook they are just knocked down and hooked again. BHVR needs to rethink how they address these issues because they favor those who play killer above those that do not. It makes the game enjoyably and for most games unplayable.
idk how many times ppl need to explain basic sportsmanship rules of PvP games, but here we go again.
Bot is placed to serve as a bandaid for a player intentionally leaving the match so that team isn't instantly left in a 3v1 situation soon after match starts. It's not there to be your "uwu i wanna be free to cherrypick my matches with 0 punishment for it" feature.
In your case, and many others, people simply don't want to bother with matches where your opponent is either an unfun character or plays in a way that is unfun for you.
Your opponent has the right to play to win, and so do you. This is a PvP game with set win conditions that is competitive by nature. Deciding to leave matches just because your opponent doesn't fullfill your "fun to vs" requirements is peak of unsportsmanlike conduct and should even be punished harder.
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bait used to be believable