NarkoTri1er
NarkoTri1er
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@Atom7k said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852964#Comment_3852964
If that is your only point go look at my other posts.
Tunneling at 5 gens is pathetic and nothing else. If you don't have any skill, train.
it's like complaining playing more complex music is unfair because you don't get it from the starttunneling at "5 gens" doesn't exist, it's a made up term made by highly inefficient soloQ teams where:
- players last very short in chases;
- teammates are completely allergic to gens;
- teammates rush for the unhook when first chased survivor gets hooked.
If it happens to you, it's pure failure of you and your own team to be efficient at all, and killer just took advantage of it, because if your team fails to do any gens by the time first chase is finished, that's a serious problem of your team (or you if you lasted extremely short in chase)
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855508#Comment_3855508
Hurting your own progress? How exactly? I'm guessing I'm in a reasonably high MMR due to crazy sweaty swf teams im regularly going against and the fact I regularly get 3/4k every night for the past couple years. You said it yourself they do become useful against better survivors. I'm not seeing how camping and tunneling hurts progress of a killer, if anything it helps.
i think they wanted to say that many killer players crutch onto those strategies against bad/average survivors to the point where they completely lose sense of when and how to strategically use them against actually good survivors (pure example proxy camping a survivor without actually placing them onto a hook beneficial for you where you can actually put pressure on a good team, but average teams will rush for the save anyways).
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@Tsanders said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/434802/slugging
So what I'm hearing is that it is somehow the fault of the other survivors in the lobby that you are actively making the decision to bleed someone out instead of just hooking them and racing the last survivor to the hatch?
You do realize that a win for killers is 3 sacrifices right? Even if you hook and the last survivor escapes you still won the match.
You could move on from that match and be tormenting 4 new people in the time it takes you to sit there and let someone bleed out.
Survivors are not entitled to a hatch escape the same way killers are not entitled to 4k.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855370#Comment_3855370
Nobody is "literally" forcing you to bleed people out. This is a choice you are actively making.
If I see a killer wasting my time with this garbage you can bet I'm going to turn around and do the same.
So what I'm hearing is that it is somehow the fault of the other survivors in the lobby that you are actively making the decision to bleed someone out instead of just hooking them and racing the last survivor to the hatch?
why would you let RNG take part in match outcome if you can just decide the match outcome yourself?
You do realize that a win for killers is 3 sacrifices right? Even if you hook and the last survivor escapes you still won the match.
and? 3 escapes is also a win for survs and yet, i never see that "mercy" thing from their side and they will usually always do everything for 4-men escape.
You could move on from that match and be tormenting 4 new people in the time it takes you to sit there and let someone bleed out.
coin has two sides, yk?
Nobody is "literally" forcing you to bleed people out. This is a choice you are actively making.
If I see a killer wasting my time with this garbage you can bet I'm going to turn around and do the same.
the whole sabo aspect of the game together with Boil Over and other similar perks literally forces this playstyle lol.
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i'm currently using Agi+Corrupt+Pain Res+Grim (or Eruption instead of Grim) for my Oni winstreak and it's serving me good
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@Mandy said:
There's no current plan to change Shoulder of Burden, it was adjusted from the PTB - Live, and it is something that will be monitored on our side, if we see it behaving problematically then it's of course something that we can change, for right now we're happy with how it's performing.
so...how about some plans to actually make hooking/spreading hooks appealing again then? The whole purpose of those has been killed long ago, and StB is just stomping on their dead bodies atm
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no thanks, i don't want to wait 10mins in a queue just to play a full-on chaotic mode where there is no strategizing at all
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852697#Comment_3852697
yeah, you have totally proved my point by trying to completely invalidate any gameplay aspect as a counter to specific gameplay loop because it's easier to go with the flow and believe something is broken, unfair and uncounterable purely because you can't counter it on autopilot.
Never mind the fact that tunneling is the Killer's way to win on autopilot, as it requires no skill, no perks or add-ons, or even basekit powers. Trying to call out Survivors for "wanting autopilot" while defending tunneling is just being extremely hypocritical.
tunneling is abusing the weakness of your opponent in terms of not being good enough in chases to waste enough of your time in order to make the chase worth it for their team, so they basically lead their team into an early 3v1.
Does it require skill? It does. It does require proper chase skills in order to actually pull off, and even with those, you will choose not to tunnel out specific survivor if you notice that they are wasting way too much of your time, so it has macro skills that come up with it.
Acting like it's winning on autopilot is just attempting to further act like it's uncounterable when you literally have all the proper tools and mechanics to counter it (StB is literally a cherry on top and nobody actually has any right to complain about tunneling anymore when this perk exists).
Funny thing is, this is not just about tunneling, people need coping mechanisms for failing to improve at fundamental aspects of the game when facing any strategy their opponent uses. This is a very common case inside dbd community
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@Yoshirama said:
If you’re gonna start a match just to watch for 4 minutes how everyone bleeds out, then don’t play. If you’re on a point that you need to slug every match because you don’t feel able to play normally just go to another game.
Slugging should be punished, same as tunneling
it isn't slugging as a strategy that should be punished, it's bleeding out that needs something as a counterweight to let people be able to at least bleed out faster or vote collective give up when in this situation
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
why? Because casual players think it shouldn't because they can't handle having to invest time into learning how to properly play the game?
At this point you are simply hating on players that want ideal balance in the game, classical Fortnite kind of mentality.
With the formula Dbd has, how can anyone think this game can be taken to a level of seriousness that it is anything like other pvp centric games?
With perks, various killer powers, perks, the map designs, the buggy everything this game has, and not to mention all the perks in the game, how can anyone think this is a recipe that can be balanced for 'comp play'? Genuinely asking.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852639#Comment_3852639
And all of them are absolutely comp!
This is not the evidence you think it is.
And all of them are absolutely comp!
This is not the evidence you think it is.
huge manority of people there literally are in for scrims and 1v1s because they don't find any more fun in pubs due to terrible matchmaking and balance focused purely around it :)
@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852608#Comment_3852608
The game is designed and balanced around people playing it as a social experience rather than a competiton. They don't even show you your MMR rating, for Pete's sake.
There's a reason they invite smaller streamers who focus on conversing with their chat to preview new gameplay - those streamers are naturally good at goofing around while being entertaining. They don't invite Team Eternal, because that's not what they want to showcase.
I think BHVR realize, at least, that if someone wants to sweat hard, they'll play a game that's more rewarding to play competitively. Skill expression is rewarded in individual matches, but nobody's deluding themselves that if they juice a killer for 3 minutes in solo queue or get a 4k at 4 gens for the 20th time in a row on blight, that they'll get invited to a multi million dollar tourney.
The game is designed and balanced around people playing it as a social experience rather than a competiton. They don't even show you your MMR rating, for Pete's sake.
your MMR/elo isn't shown in any game for the reason to prevent it's abuse for smurfing purposes (tho dbd has close to nonexistent MMR system)
There's a reason they invite smaller streamers who focus on conversing with their chat to preview new gameplay - those streamers are naturally good at goofing around while being entertaining. They don't invite Team Eternal, because that's not what they want to showcase.
they are barely ever inviting smaller streamers, and i'm literally seeing only Gh0stArcade and one other dude that are actually goofing off amongst FWs. And nobody from Eternal is a FW nor wanted to be part of that program.
I think BHVR realize, at least, that if someone wants to sweat hard, they'll play a game that's more rewarding to play competitively. Skill expression is rewarded in individual matches, but nobody's deluding themselves that if they juice a killer for 3 minutes in solo queue or get a 4k at 4 gens for the 20th time in a row on blight, that they'll get invited to a multi million dollar tourney.
in dbd, people who want to play competitively on a higher level usually leave pubs to play scrims, 1v1s and big tourneys. Majority of players are still competitive, but they try to hide it somehow and call themselves "casual" players in every possible way in order to try and cover up the fact that winning is fun for them, while losing isn't.
Anybody whose skill keeps improving will eventually get bored of pubs, while people who are hardstuck will keep playing them with an illusion of "high MMR" and pretending to be goofing casuals
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852460#Comment_3852460
its not completely irrelevant to the discussion.
Yes it is. In a discussion about the necessity of tunnelling, and specifically talking about experimenting with tunnelling being removed for a while to see the impact on kill rates, talking about 'gens going too fast' is irrelevant, because the experiment is specifically there to prove or disprove exactly that. It's just you pre-emptively doubling down on your argument because you're worried that such an experiment would indicate that tunnelling is indeed not necessary to win.
Unless you're implying that the balancing should be done in a quid-pro-quo kind of style where, even if tunnelling is proven to be just be an excess that's been hindering balance more than helping it, it shouldn't be addressed because it might feel unfair for killers somehow?
tunneling has been made immensely difficult against good teams due to the many perks/basekit changes they benefit from which cost the killer so much time.
Again, it's not adding up, dude. If tunnelling has been made immensely difficult specifically against good teams, then why is tunnelling specifically necessary against specifically good teams?
if tunneling is still the best strategy after all of that then the conclusion is not that the perks are doing nothing, the conclusion is that the other playstyle (dividing hooks) must suck so bad that despite insanely strong anti-tunnel mechanics, tunneling remains a better strategy because again, dividing hooks is a horrible strategy at its core.
Or, alternatively: Tunnelling is just that damn broken.
just because I cant envision it doesn't mean no one else can? last time the killer got a basekit buff it was so minimal that it didn't change anything. and then they gave survivors basekit meta perks.
That's not a counter-argument.
Also, are you talking about 6.1? Because that did skyrocket the killrates.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852604#Comment_3852604
so now we are putting words in mouth even tho i never said such a thing nor pointed out to it? We never learn, do we?
That is the entirety of your argument against everything that's being said.
because of two things:
Both of which are incompatible with your earlier, boastful assertion that BHVR shares -your- point of view. Guess the devs aren't as on board with your 'tunnelling is necessary and survivors that ask for nerfs to it are just whiners' viewpoint as you claim they are, huh?
and it also means playing against tunnelers is way easier than you think is, tunneling success rate is massively inflated by people who simply can't last longer in chases and give up so easily against tunnelers.
Another wild assertion made based on absolutely nothing.
That is the entirety of your argument against everything that's being said.
no, it isn't.
Both of which are incompatible with your earlier, boastful assertion that BHVR shares -your- point of view. Guess the devs aren't as on board with your 'tunnelling is necessary and survivors that ask for nerfs to it are just whiners' viewpoint as you claim they are, huh?
devs are being overwhelmed by "casual" players who suddenly want to take part in balancing aspects and are swarming every part of dbd socials. They have noticed the mentality of average dbd player and are aware that, at this point, there is no point in trying to properly balance the game anymore since average player just wants best results with the minimum skill investment.
And i'm talking this as a person that experienced vast amount of PvP games with various communities, and dbd and fortnite are quite the only communities so far with such catastrophic communities where casuals wanna dictate game balance so that they can have easier matches.
Another wild assertion made based on absolutely nothing.
yeah, you have totally proved my point by trying to completely invalidate any gameplay aspect as a counter to specific gameplay loop because it's easier to go with the flow and believe something is broken, unfair and uncounterable purely because you can't counter it on autopilot.
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852642#Comment_3852642
The comparison makes plenty of sense. I'll write the point again: There's an intended result (hatch race/paying taxes) that's being evaded because someone found a workaround to avoid doing something that's in the best interest of the most people.
your logicc ompletely excluded survivor players who basically grief their team whole match and avoid the killer just so that they can get an easy hatch at the end and think how they "outplayed" killer. It literally has 0 similar points to paying taxes. It's just a poorly done bandaid for something bigger that contributes more towards less healthy game than a more healthy one.
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@brokedownpalace said:
Just went against 3 killers in a row with the exact same build. Thrill, Face the Darkness, Devour Hope and Pentimento.
Is this seriously the vision you have for the game Bhvr? Playing totem cleansing simulator?
people on both sides will usually pretend they are casuals while playing the most busted builds game has to offer in order to maximize their winning chances, nothing new.
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852238#Comment_3852238
Saying that slugging for 4k is caused by the hatch is like saying that tax evasion is caused by tax laws. There's an intended result (hatch race/paying taxes) that's being evaded because someone found a workaround to avoid doing something that's in the best interest of the most people. Just because it's possible to do doesn't mean it's good to do.
Also, the endgame mori definitely incentives slugging for 4k. And I think people already don't enjoy being slugged for 4k. It's insulting enough when a player bypasses an intended mechanic just to make their job extremely easy at the cost of the enjoyment of two other people. But when they do a preprogrammed victory dance over you at the end of it, it's like BHVR coded in a message telling people not to play survivor.
the worst comparison i've seen so far.
slugging for 4k is literally done in order to prevent last survivor being able to get into the pure rng game for hatch.
Hatch exists as a nothing but lame mechanic to prevent games going into oblivion in terms of duration .
Your comparison absolutely makes 0 sense
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852249#Comment_3852249
If hatch is removed, you'll see a lot more Survivors giving up on hook, or quitting the game entirely. Neither will be good for the game's health.
so people will give up more because pure luck has decided the match outcome for them as individual?
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852617#Comment_3852617
Outta curiosity, where is this proven?:
we can clearly see how less fun it started becoming since more than half of the community are members of comp scene
DbDL discord server counts 21k+ members and is still growing.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852608#Comment_3852608
The game IS casual and BHVR has started to cater to the game's CASUAL fanbase more.
If you want an e-sport, go play Overwatch.
we can clearly see how less fun it started becoming since more than half of the community are members of comp scene, while also so many players are complaining about their experience in dbd even more since dbd started cattering to those "casual" players. At this point you are simply hating on players that want ideal balance in the game, classical Fortnite kind of mentality.
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a lot of perks on the list are heavily undervalued and put way too low, and there are way too many perks not worthy of being of S-tier being put into it.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852605#Comment_3852605
And this is not the competitive e-sport you apparently are insisting it is by responding this way.
why? Because casual players think it shouldn't because they can't handle having to invest time into learning how to properly play the game?
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truly the most cursed tierlist i've ever seen
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852591#Comment_3852591
This is the truth and it's high time we all admit it. DBD is NOT A COMP GAME.
It is a party game.
It is a party versus game with comp elements. You cannot ever balance it and shouldn't try, because when we do we get the stripped down paltry version of DBD that is 2v8. It is not an esport, not designed to be one, and never will or should be one.
Now let's convince the Devs to finish the job by reworking emblems and balancing around hooks, not just Kills.
counter strike was a true definition of party game and it has one of the biggest tournaments in the world and huge competitive scene. Party games are not really what you think they are
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852443#Comment_3852443
Yes, yes, we know. The usual 'survivors win = survivors OP, killers win = survivors bad' mantra, we get it by now. You don't have to keep rehashing your biases.
you know that BHVR is also noticing that people are going way too far with requests for anti-tunneling and camping buffs as a coping mechanism for still lacking basic macro gameplay knowledge, right?
Then why'd they add another anti-tunnel perk?
Yes, yes, we know. The usual 'survivors win = survivors OP, killers win = survivors bad' mantra, we get it by now. You don't have to keep rehashing your biases.
so now we are putting words in mouth even tho i never said such a thing nor pointed out to it? We never learn, do we?
Then why'd they add another anti-tunnel perk?
because of two things:
1. casual players don't want a counter to tunneling that has skill input, they want a free counter to tunneling. Why was OG DH beloved by so many people? Because it had no skill input. Why were old dark maps beloved by so many people? Because stealthing on them had 0 skill input.
2. as an inproper bandaid that makes core issue of the game even worse and still leaves hooking and spreading hooks as even less beneficial aspect of the game for the killer.
Which means that tunneling isn't as necessary as you and other Killer mains say it is.
and it also means playing against tunnelers is way easier than you think is, tunneling success rate is massively inflated by people who simply can't last longer in chases and give up so easily against tunnelers.
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there are way more healthy ways to fight intentional bleeding out and we choose to...reward survivors for that? You could literally invent a give up vote or faster bleedout timer, and yet somehow basekit UB is the "best option"?
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852413#Comment_3852413
lmao how is that covering my own behind?
Because it's a back-up argument in case tunnelling is proven to indeed NOT be necessary to win.
and dude, im sorry but the hope that every killer will be viable if tunneling is removed due to buffs is nothing short of a pipedream… we've been nerfing tunneling and camping nearly every update and the weak killers have still not moved in terms of strength.
In the near decade that DBD has been in operation, the nerfs given to camping and tunnelling are the removal of hook grabs, 10 second haste and endurance, and the most timid anti-facecamp ever. Contrarywise, BHVR has been so delicate with the matter that even getting 5 sec DS back didn't last. These tactics have never been adequately addressed, BHVR continues to pussyfoot around it.
yeah, would be awesome if bhvr would make dividing hooks more effective than tunneling then make weaker killers better to compensate but that is never going to happen. if they "removed" tunneling, they're not gonna go to each and every weak killer and give them (MAJOR) buffs to compensate. that is a pipedream which would require a gargantuan amount of time, effort, testing, and community feedback for EACH KILLER. its not going to happen.
They don't need to. I've made suggestions for killer buffs that would work, but only IF camping/tunnelling are properly addressed. And these were nothing more than simple number shifts for a subtle but impactful effect.
To claim that they need to go through every individual killer to manually adjust all of them is overcomplicating the issue. We already saw that they can just buff killers wholesale, since that's what they did in 6.1.
Because it's a back-up argument in case tunnelling is proven to indeed NOT be necessary to win.
omg, tunneling is proven not to be necessary against people that can't hold a chase longer than 20s and so their teammates can't split pressure at all!!!
In the near decade that DBD has been in operation, the nerfs given to camping and tunnelling are the removal of hook grabs, 10 second haste and endurance, and the most timid anti-facecamp ever. Contrarywise, BHVR has been so delicate with the matter that even getting 5 sec DS back didn't last. These tactics have never been adequately addressed, BHVR continues to pussyfoot around it.
you know that BHVR is also noticing that people are going way too far with requests for anti-tunneling and camping buffs as a coping mechanism for still lacking basic macro gameplay knowledge, right?
Shoulder the Burden is literally the cherry on top of the fact that survivors have no right to complain about getting tunneled anymore, you literally have plethora of basekit anti-tunneling features, perks and macro knowledge aspects at your disposal, if you still end up dying fast into the match, it's literally your and only your fault.
They don't need to. I've made suggestions for killer buffs that would work, but only IF camping/tunnelling are properly addressed. And these were nothing more than simple number shifts for a subtle but impactful effect.
To claim that they need to go through every individual killer to manually adjust all of them is overcomplicating the issue. We already saw that they can just buff killers wholesale, since that's what they did in 6.1.
tunneling is a CONSEQUENCE of bad game design and the fact that spreading hooks is literally just validated because it's a way to severely handicap yourself and flex of you win that way. And honestly, if a killer manages to beat your team by spreading hooks (especially an M1 killer) you should feel embarrassed way more than you'd be if you lost by tunneling.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852404#Comment_3852404
why the hell should killers bend over backwards to appease survivors by playing in a more "fun" way?
Because it's just a game, and it's supposed to be fun for both sides? And I've already explained how tunneling is bad, not just for Survivors' fun, but it also ruins the Killers' fun down the road. I haven't seen you counter that argument.
never in my 3.5k hours have I ever seen a survivor intentionally play worse to benefit the killer. they dont do gens slowly because its more fun and I dont see anyone calling them bad for doing that and saying how that's a "problem".
You mean you've never seen Survivors give up? I don't know where you've been if you haven't had Survivors playing the way half of my teammates do.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to win all the time, but all of us need to get better at accepting the fact that we're not going to win every game. People tunnel because they just can't accept that fact.
Because it's just a game, and it's supposed to be fun for both sides? And I've already explained how tunneling is bad, not just for Survivors' fun, but it also ruins the Killers' fun down the road. I haven't seen you counter that argument.
using this logic, we should expect survivors not to bring toolboxes with BNPs, stealth and not to split on gens because "it's more fun that way".
Also, getting tunneled is one of those moments you hate when you don't know chases, but truly enjoy when you are good at those.
You mean you've never seen Survivors give up? I don't know where you've been if you haven't had Survivors playing the way half of my teammates do.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to win all the time, but all of us need to get better at accepting the fact that we're not going to win every game. People tunnel because they just can't accept that fact.
except for the fact that you can win (almost) every match on either side with how bad current matchmaking system is
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851967#Comment_3851967
so what does the fact that conditions 1 and 3 aren't specific to tunneling, but are core to countering have "not" to do with it?
Because it essentially turns your advice into 'just win, 4head', and not an actual counter.
And condition 2 is literally 100% true, hooked survivor is basically at the state where they can't be hunted for the whole duration of one hook state.
Except it also leaves them incapacitated, which means they're exactly as useful as them already being dead, and it opens the door for the killer to snowball a ton of extra pressure on top. It is not in survivors' best interest to leave someone on the hook, unless the killer is camping.
how difficult is it to understand that this perk doesn't only work against tunneling? And how many times do people have to repeat themselves with explaining?
That doesn't matter! The one thing is denies is the one thing that gives tunnelling -all- of its value. It having value outside of a tunnelling killer is not the point of this argument. The point is that the incredible value you ascribe to this perk to deny an early kill is the exact same value that tunnelling provides. Shoulder the burden and tunnelling both operate off the same value.
hooking and killing is the only way killer wins too, so?
That's not an argument.
ahh yeah, slaughtered because casual players can no longer have fun while getting free value of it while not having to think about where they will be downed, right?
Its activation is entirely in the hands of the killer. If you get hit with it, you deserve to take punishment. It's not 'free value', since it costs a hook state and requires the killer to sign a consent form in triplicate to get hit with the stun.
i don't care what your "forum killers" think, i am here for the same reason i am on forums for basically any PvP game i played, proper game balance that isn't about making it "fun" for casuals by making broken stuff.
Then maybe encourage BHVR to deal with the broken thing that's plagued the game since its inception, instead of ONLY caring about what survivors get to fix it.
we could literally get as many ppl in dbd community to test which side gives up more times, even myself, and there are basically 7-8 games where survivor(s) give up on top of one game where killer gives up.
Besides, memeing killers are vast minority, let's not pretend they are some kind of majority.
Additionally, let's not put MMR into this story since it's as good as nonexistent. If you constantly keep improving, skill gap between you and average opponents at soft cap is so high that you will consistently get great individual results on both sides.
Again, you're arguing back against one or two things while not having anything to answer against any of the rest, and once again, I must remind you: ######### stats are still more than no stats.
i am literally winning most of my matches as both sides and it's literally mostly because my opponents make grave mistakes, especially when i play killer. Average killer complaining about genrushing usually doesn't even know importance of things as Corrupt Intervention in build and being aware of importance of the first chase.
Oh, you mean the killrates are deflated?
core problem is…KILLERS LOSING? Core problem is literally lack of proper incentive to hook/spread hooks (+10s hook timers, hook grabs removed, hook related perks on killer side getting nerfed constantly so many hook related meta perks on survivor side, sabo buffed), which results in uprising of unhealthy strategies like tunneling and slugging. And you are here basically acting as if we should first give hand to people who…simply refuse to find a workaround against anything in this game, while killers usually find workarounds after every drastic balance change.
You did not read what I wrote about the whole 'kicking the can down the road' thing, did you?
Killers AREN'T a stronger role, that's a fake bubble created by terrible matchmaking that was guess what, literally induced by community that would literally never want it to improve because they don't want longer queue times.
Literally everything suggests they are.
do you know that in comp tournaments, there are very heavy restrictions on survivors against M1 killers?
Did you know that there was a comp tournament with no restrictions that showed the roles as neatly balanced?
With that in mind, are you aware that their experiment has NOTHING TO DO with balance between killers and survivors, it literally points out how flawed MMR system is and how low soft MMR cap is because average survivor is so bad that they can get obliterated even by a completely powerless killer.
And you think that this is okay, and even that it should be significantly worse than what it is. Top MMR 4-man SWF hitting 50% escape rate needs to get nerfed, with no regard for what this will do to the other 90% of the game. This is just not going to work. It's going to nerf survivors out of the game outright.
And if you want to use this as your argument for "omg so if you are having difficult time as killer, that's a skill issue", mind you, Hens and his friends are top 0.01% of dbd playerbase in terms of skill, knowing almost every single macro aspect of this game.
Okay, and? Weren't you the one that said we shouldn't balance to the casuals?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852003#Comment_3852003
Again, the perk requires the killer's consent to work. It's not supposed to be balanced when it does fire because the killer did something wrong to make it fire.
The opinion that DS is in any way powerful stems from people who lack the self-restraint to not set it off.
i'm reading in disbelief and really questioning if i should keep going after you literally tried to invalidate using basic gameplay and macro knowledge as a counter to specific strategy. Truly unbelievable.
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@Oputeeva said:
Nope, it should be basekit, I'm tired of being be downed and doing nothing most boring thing in this game when you are not playing the game!
so what would you do of ot was basekit? Get downed, pick yourself up , get downed again and then proceed to complain about killers slugging again?
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851785#Comment_3851785
"broken tactic" that has 3 conditions in order to be successful:
Except conditions 1 and 3 are general gameplay conditions that aren't specific to tunnelling, and condition 2 isn't even true at all.
Additionally, you can also be on death hook if killer doesn't tunnel you and this perk will have tremendous impact, meaning "tunneling" argument falls into the water.
You can't undervalue the impact of tunnelling while simultaneously trying to gas up this perk for its ability to deny an early kill. They are two sides of the exact same coin.
The more you argue that StB is broken, the more you argue that tunnelling is just as broken. They are inextricably linked together.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851790#Comment_3851790
gen soeeds are still the main problem, slowdowns are unnecessarily nerfed in an attempt to make meta shift while failing miserably because slowdowns will be the most effective thing even at their worst because guess what, gen speeds.
Gen speeds will always be marked as the problem because ultimately, that's the one and only way by which survivors win. Whether matches take 3 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, the moment the last survivor walks out the exit gate and seals the loss for the killer, it is because the gens got done faster than the killer could keep up with.
That is the nature of the game. It is not an argument in and of itself. For that, you'd need to look at balancing statistics, and those aren't in favour of your argument.
let me correct this for you. DS didn't get slaughtered, it actually received an additional condition to be used
A perk that requires the killer to follow a multi-step program in order to activate, lost over half of its actual power. That is a slaughtering. It's very telling that this is one of the very, very few things that BHVR has ever gone back on, even if only slightly.
The idea that DS should require more skill from the survivor is a laughable one when it is the single most avoidable perk in the entire game. But hey, when it went down to 3 seconds, it didn't matter that you did everything wrong as killer to make this perk work, you wouldn't get punished for it anyway since you could just tunnel straight through it. It was a total waste of a perk slot.
The fact that average player is bad and can't use specific meta perk doesn't mean perk shouldn't be touched at all. It's in fact the worst argument for not touching the perk.
That is quite rich coming from someone who has long advocated for the game to be balanced around a handful of forum killers that insist that the role that is statistically the strongest, that BHVR balances to make the strongest, and that constantly puts out massive win streaks, is actually staggeringly underpowered.
Killrates are massively inflated by factors completely unrelated to actual balance.
This 'massive inflation' is overestimated.
Firstly because of the assumption that every hook suicide or D/C has some meaningful impact on the kill/winrate, when in reality, a good number of them would've been 4Ks either way.
And secondly because people like to forget that some of these issues swing both ways. AFK killers, mercy killers, bad killers, bad matchmaking, all of those factors will swing the rates down again.
Then there's also the argument that as you go up in MMR, where these issues should be less likely to be a problem, the kill rate actually goes -up-, not down.
But even if you were to dismiss all of that to try and devalue the impact of these statistics, you still run headfirst into another brick wall: This is at least -something-, whereas the forum killer has -nothing-. It has always been based purely on a personal perspective that was generated in a closed box that no one has any insight into.
And that is supposed to be in charge of balance.
M1 killers against any somewhat decent survivors stand no chance if they don't manage to tunnel one survivor out early lol. Again, let's not use "high killrates on weak killers" as an argument since we know skill level of average survivor.
But the skill level of the average killer must never be questioned, of course. Only the skill level of the survivor is up for discussion and derision, and only survivors shall be dismissed for their perceived lack of skill.
It is exactly this lack of self-awareness, self-observation, self-critique, that creates the forum killer.
Forum killers are perfect players that never make mistakes.
Killer wins = Survivors bad. Survivors win = Killer UP. There is no way to break through this.
how about we actually fix the core problem that stands behind tunneling instead of throwing bandaids that literally just make it even worse for more than half of the killer roster? Why don't we think about lack of hooking/hook spreading incentive?
The 'core problem' you perceive is killers losing. We're not going to 'fix' that.
And the problem with a carrot approach is that killers are already the stronger role. If you want the incentive to work, you'd need to offer something that is more powerful, easier to pull off, more consistent, than tunnelling. It would have to be more oppressive than tunnelling.
That doesn't fix the issue. That just kicks the can down the road.
Get rid of tunnelling first, and IF a rebalance is required, it can always be done after.
to actually prove it, go and play an M1 killer against a decent survivor team and see for yourself :)
Again, Hens and four of his friends. 90% 3K+ rate over a hundred matches and they didn't just refrain from tunnelling, camping and slugging…
They didn't use ANY killer powers. Worse than an M1 killer.
Except conditions 1 and 3 are general gameplay conditions that aren't specific to tunnelling, and condition 2 isn't even true at all.
so what does the fact that conditions 1 and 3 aren't specific to tunneling, but are core to countering have "not" to do with it?
And condition 2 is literally 100% true, hooked survivor is basically at the state where they can't be hunted for the whole duration of one hook state.
You can't undervalue the impact of tunnelling while simultaneously trying to gas up this perk for its ability to deny an early kill. They are two sides of the exact same coin.
The more you argue that StB is broken, the more you argue that tunnelling is just as broken. They are inextricably linked together.
how difficult is it to understand that this perk doesn't only work against tunneling? And how many times do people have to repeat themselves with explaining?
Gen speeds will always be marked as the problem because ultimately, that's the one and only way by which survivors win. Whether matches take 3 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, the moment the last survivor walks out the exit gate and seals the loss for the killer, it is because the gens got done faster than the killer could keep up with.
That is the nature of the game. It is not an argument in and of itself. For that, you'd need to look at balancing statistics, and those aren't in favour of your argument.
hooking and killing is the only way killer wins too, so?
A perk that requires the killer to follow a multi-step program in order to activate, lost over half of its actual power. That is a slaughtering. It's very telling that this is one of the very, very few things that BHVR has ever gone back on, even if only slightly.
The idea that DS should require more skill from the survivor is a laughable one when it is the single most avoidable perk in the entire game. But hey, when it went down to 3 seconds, it didn't matter that you did everything wrong as killer to make this perk work, you wouldn't get punished for it anyway since you could just tunnel straight through it. It was a total waste of a perk slot.
ahh yeah, slaughtered because casual players can no longer have fun while getting free value of it while not having to think about where they will be downed, right? Old DH incident of ppl defending it with their life.
Plus, the 3s argument is completely wrong for basically any killer other than Nurse, Billy and Blight. You will not get it's value anyways when you run into a most open deadzone and get downed there.
That is quite rich coming from someone who has long advocated for the game to be balanced around a handful of forum killers that insist that the role that is statistically the strongest, that BHVR balances to make the strongest, and that constantly puts out massive win streaks, is actually staggeringly underpowered.
i don't care what your "forum killers" think, i am here for the same reason i am on forums for basically any PvP game i played, proper game balance that isn't about making it "fun" for casuals by making broken stuff.
This 'massive inflation' is overestimated.
Firstly because of the assumption that every hook suicide or D/C has some meaningful impact on the kill/winrate, when in reality, a good number of them would've been 4Ks either way.
And secondly because people like to forget that some of these issues swing both ways. AFK killers, mercy killers, bad killers, bad matchmaking, all of those factors will swing the rates down again.
Then there's also the argument that as you go up in MMR, where these issues should be less likely to be a problem, the kill rate actually goes -up-, not down.
But even if you were to dismiss all of that to try and devalue the impact of these statistics, you still run headfirst into another brick wall: This is at least -something-, whereas the forum killer has -nothing-. It has always been based purely on a personal perspective that was generated in a closed box that no one has any insight into.
And that is supposed to be in charge of balance.
we could literally get as many ppl in dbd community to test which side gives up more times, even myself, and there are basically 7-8 games where survivor(s) give up on top of one game where killer gives up.
Besides, memeing killers are vast minority, let's not pretend they are some kind of majority.
Additionally, let's not put MMR into this story since it's as good as nonexistent. If you constantly keep improving, skill gap between you and average opponents at soft cap is so high that you will consistently get great individual results on both sides.
But the skill level of the average killer must never be questioned, of course. Only the skill level of the survivor is up for discussion and derision, and only survivors shall be dismissed for their perceived lack of skill.
It is exactly this lack of self-awareness, self-observation, self-critique, that creates the forum killer.
Forum killers are perfect players that never make mistakes.
Killer wins = Survivors bad. Survivors win = Killer UP. There is no way to break through this.
i am literally winning most of my matches as both sides and it's literally mostly because my opponents make grave mistakes, especially when i play killer. Average killer complaining about genrushing usually doesn't even know importance of things as Corrupt Intervention in build and being aware of importance of the first chase.
The 'core problem' you perceive is killers losing. We're not going to 'fix' that.
And the problem with a carrot approach is that killers are already the stronger role. If you want the incentive to work, you'd need to offer something that is more powerful, easier to pull off, more consistent, than tunnelling. It would have to be more oppressive than tunnelling.
That doesn't fix the issue. That just kicks the can down the road.
Get rid of tunnelling first, and IF a rebalance is required, it can always be done after.
core problem is…KILLERS LOSING? Core problem is literally lack of proper incentive to hook/spread hooks (+10s hook timers, hook grabs removed, hook related perks on killer side getting nerfed constantly so many hook related meta perks on survivor side, sabo buffed), which results in uprising of unhealthy strategies like tunneling and slugging. And you are here basically acting as if we should first give hand to people who…simply refuse to find a workaround against anything in this game, while killers usually find workarounds after every drastic balance change.
Killers AREN'T a stronger role, that's a fake bubble created by terrible matchmaking that was guess what, literally induced by community that would literally never want it to improve because they don't want longer queue times.
Again, Hens and four of his friends. 90% 3K+ rate over a hundred matches and they didn't just refrain from tunnelling, camping and slugging…
They didn't use ANY killer powers. Worse than an M1 killer.
do you know that in comp tournaments, there are very heavy restrictions on survivors against M1 killers? With that in mind, are you aware that their experiment has NOTHING TO DO with balance between killers and survivors, it literally points out how flawed MMR system is and how low soft MMR cap is because average survivor is so bad that they can get obliterated even by a completely powerless killer.
And if you want to use this as your argument for "omg so if you are having difficult time as killer, that's a skill issue", mind you, Hens and his friends are top 0.01% of dbd playerbase in terms of skill, knowing almost every single macro aspect of this game.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851740#Comment_3851740
In 6.1.0, gens were changed to take 10 seconds longer, the on-hit sprint was reduced, the on-hit cooldown was reduced. At the same time, a bunch of perks were shuffled around. In the scramble that followed, as survivors tried to get their footing with the changes to what had been a long-standing meta, killers had a very easy time, and you know what happened?
The fact that DS got slaughtered in that patch led to a massive spike in tunnelling. Killers had an easier time than ever and killers tunnelled more. Within a week, killers were already downplaying the relevance of 6.1, claiming it just made gens take a little longer when that was only one of like half a dozen buffs.
I won't say that this is the easiest killers have had it, because that was when regression was so damn bad that the number one method of securing 4Ks for some killers was to time out the damn servers with a locked-out 3-gen.
But killers are still winning considerably more than they're losing. Killrates are high, there's massive winstreaks, there's all kinds of funky experiments rolling around that prove how much you can do as killer. Heck, for this complaint of tunnelling being necessary, Hens and four of his friends scored an over 90% 3K+ rate over a hundred matches while not just not tunnelling, but not using any killer powers.
But an anti-tunnel perk shows up and the forums are on fire again because a handful of forum killers that have never made a single mistake in any of their games ever but somehow never manage more than 2 hooks per match are absolutely convinced that killers are at a 15% kill rate and a 0% winrate.
And just like that, we're back to the poor, poor killers who somehow only really ever talk about how bad things are when survivors threaten to get a perk that doesn't go straight to the bottom of the trash bin. Heck, I've probably contributed more buff suggestions than most of the forum killers combined. But they're all mum about it until survivors are the slightest bit listened to.
'Tunnelling is mandatory!', cry forum killers, desperate to ensure that no balance changes can be made to change it.
Tunnelling has continued to be a beatstick that forum killers use to try and force balance to go their way. How about we just let it lie for a sec, hm? Let Shoulder the Burden do its thing, see what it does.
Because either it'll tank killer winrates and prove that tunnelling was just creating an illusion of balance and force BHVR to acknowledge your point of view and do something meaningful to help killers along…
Or it'll do jack for the winrates, proving that tunnelling wasn't necessary at all.
It's a win-win.
In 6.1.0, gens were changed to take 10 seconds longer, the on-hit sprint was reduced, the on-hit cooldown was reduced. At the same time, a bunch of perks were shuffled around. In the scramble that followed, as survivors tried to get their footing with the changes to what had been a long-standing meta, killers had a very easy time, and you know what happened?
gen soeeds are still the main problem, slowdowns are unnecessarily nerfed in an attempt to make meta shift while failing miserably because slowdowns will be the most effective thing even at their worst because guess what, gen speeds.
And do you know what actually happened? People were crying about more accurate matchmaking because they didn't want to wait for long, now when they are getting stomped because they randomly get 50h Megs in their teams, we are talking about "killer being way too easy" and not "matchmaking is at fault"???
The fact that DS got slaughtered in that patch led to a massive spike in tunnelling. Killers had an easier time than ever and killers tunnelled more. Within a week, killers were already downplaying the relevance of 6.1, claiming it just made gens take a little longer when that was only one of like half a dozen buffs.
let me correct this for you. DS didn't get slaughtered, it actually received an additional condition to be used, and that condition is skill input. In it's former state it was such a free distance where you didn't have to think about where to direct the chase and where to force the down.
I won't say that this is the easiest killers have had it, because that was when regression was so damn bad that the number one method of securing 4Ks for some killers was to time out the damn servers with a locked-out 3-gen.
easiest time for killers was Eruption + CoB meta, other than that, no other time period was particularly easy unless skill gap between you and your opponents rises so much that soft MMR cap becomes a joke and you consistently 4k.
But an anti-tunnel perk shows up and the forums are on fire again because a handful of forum killers that have never made a single mistake in any of their games ever but somehow never manage more than 2 hooks per match are absolutely convinced that killers are at a 15% kill rate and a 0% winrate.
because even though you will bump into really skilled survivors kinda rarely, you will still notice the power of anti-tunneling perks, especially when used for something completely different than tunneling. The fact that average player is bad and can't use specific meta perk doesn't mean perk shouldn't be touched at all. It's in fact the worst argument for not touching the perk.
But killers are still winning considerably more than they're losing. Killrates are high, there's massive winstreaks, there's all kinds of funky experiments rolling around that prove how much you can do as killer. Heck, for this complaint of tunnelling being necessary, Hens and four of his friends scored an over 90% 3K+ rate over a hundred matches while not just not tunnelling, but not using any killer powers.
- average survivors forcing an early 3v1 by giving up on hook;
- average camped survivors giving up on hook instantly;
- average survivors not knowing basic macro aspects of the game;
- average survivors lasting 20s in chases;
- terrible matchmaking.
Killrates are massively inflated by factors completely unrelated to actual balance.
And just like that, we're back to the poor, poor killers who somehow only really ever talk about how bad things are when survivors threaten to get a perk that doesn't go straight to the bottom of the trash bin. Heck, I've probably contributed more buff suggestions than most of the forum killers combined. But they're all mum about it until survivors are the slightest bit listened to.
survivor meta is literally far more diverse than killer meta ever used to be. Rn we are having hex meta thanks to overtuned Thrill only. After it's nerf we will get returned to old Corrupt-PainRes-Eruption(Grim) meta.
'Tunnelling is mandatory!', cry forum killers, desperate to ensure that no balance changes can be made to change it.
M1 killers against any somewhat decent survivors stand no chance if they don't manage to tunnel one survivor out early lol. Again, let's not use "high killrates on weak killers" as an argument since we know skill level of average survivor.
Tunnelling has continued to be a beatstick that forum killers use to try and force balance to go their way. How about we just let it lie for a sec, hm? Let Shoulder the Burden do its thing, see what it does.
how about we actually fix the core problem that stands behind tunneling instead of throwing bandaids that literally just make it even worse for more than half of the killer roster? Why don't we think about lack of hooking/hook spreading incentive?
Because either it'll tank killer winrates and prove that tunnelling was just creating an illusion of balance and force BHVR to acknowledge your point of view and do something meaningful to help killers along…
if we see players giving up much less, lasting much more than 20s in chase and actually having proper gamesense and macro knowledge and tunneling still keeps yielding very good results, then we can talk about it being "broken" or similar stuff.
Or it'll do jack for the winrates, proving that tunnelling wasn't necessary at all.
to actually prove it, go and play an M1 killer against a decent survivor team and see for yourself :)
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851735#Comment_3851735
Perk that properly addresses broken tactic with terrible gameplay impact that's been haunting the game for nearly a decade and made balancing a distant dream, and I'm supposed to think it's a bad thing?
"broken tactic" that has 3 conditions in order to be successful:
- tunneled survivor lasts very short in chases;
- survivors unhook way too soon;
- rest of the team doesn't do gens while survivor killer is attempting to tunnel manages to waste killer's time well.
if you mentioned just "unhealthy" i would somewhat agree, but there are already way too many unhealthy features/perks/addons that are unhealthy in this game on both sides, but "broken tactic with terrible gameplay impact" is way too funny.
Additionally, you can also be on death hook if killer doesn't tunnel you and this perk will have tremendous impact, meaning "tunneling" argument falls into the water. Not to mention that justifying strength of the perk because it effectively counters one strategy rather than focusing on core issues of the game, amongst which are complete lack of incentives to spread hooks and hook in general is rather ignorant and being focused only on fun for one role
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https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3607576#Comment_3607576
game was never about "true horror experience"
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@GeneralV said:
Honestly, my friend, I think the perk is good and healthy for the game.
Personally I would have replaced the exposed downside with aura reveal, but I don't the perk is causing any problems right now. I've already had it used against me, and it barely has an impact if you're already spreading hooks.
It is good against hard tunnelers, which is something DBD absolutely needed. Tunneling should never go unpunished.
It would be nice if solo queue managed to catch up and use this perk more often, but this is very unlikely.
- encourages camping;
- encourages slugging;
- spits on any playstyle that that isn't just going for fresh hooking everyone first before taking anyone else to another hook state;
- spits on most killers;
- has no activation condition for how powerful effect it has, Exposed duration is lowkey no downside at all since it will just expire by the time you manage to even get hit by the killer if you are at least a bit decent in chases
surely a "good and healthy" perk design, especially at the times where spreading hooks and hooking as a whole is at the worst state it has ever been in. It has literally even been banned in comp tournaments instantly as soon as it was released without hesitation.
And ofc it will be considered "useless" same as Reassurance and Deli purely because majority of playerbase has 0 knowledge of how to use it properly and they will usually StB right in the killer's face.
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i don't know anyone who said anti-tunneling perks are a crutch tbh
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@thrkeybs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851138#Comment_3851138
You just walked back your own argument.
i didn't? Nobody ever asked for Singu to be made easier, BHVR just went full force and decided to do it. Besides, lately we had only one basekit killer feature added (hook respawns) on top of 4 basekit survivor changes (anti-facecamp meter, hook grabs removal, +10s to hook timers, and tbh, these survivor feature changes were much more drastic). The reason why survivor basekit changes come in higher numbers is mainly because there are much more vocal casual survivor players than there are killer ones
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851391#Comment_3851391
Can I ask, I don't necessarily disagree with you overall, but you keep saying this perk kills a player's hook pressure- what do you mean by that?
I'm not sure how this perk could even affect hook pressure, so I'm curious what you're referring to.
capability to force survs to go for unhook and thus be off gens/important zones on the map by having their teammate hooked at strategic position and trying to force any remaining surv off the gen and eventually get another gen. This is already negatively affected by perks like Deliverance/Wicked and Reassurance + basekit hook timers AND indirectly huge potential of off-hook perks that let you waste even more of the killer's time.
How does StB affect hook pressure? There are couple of ways to do it:
- use StB on a weak survivor to basically make them useful as hook meat and greed them on hook as long as possible (since they will actually last longer on hook than in chase lol)
- survivor on death hook (no matter tunneling or not) magically isn't on death hook anymore
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@DragonMasterDarren said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851329#Comment_3851329
Seeing as you're not going to change your mind on this objectively terrible perk, let me put it to you in the most simple of terms
Shoulder The Burden costs you hook state to activate, not a health state, a HOOK state, those things that you only get 2 of before you die
In the absolute best case scenario, you activate this perk on a teammate, and both of you live
Worst case scenario you activate the perk, die because of the Exposed, and then your teammate dies less then a minute later anyway because they're bad at the game
In the majority of cases, you activate the perk, and then the killer either now chases you because you've given up a hook state to save someone else, the person you saved dies 3 minutes later anyway leaving you a hook state closer to death, or absolutely nothing of note happens because the killer wasn't going to try and force the person you saved to second-stage anyway, meaning you accomplished absolutely nothing but getting yourself closer to death just to keep someone in the game for a little bit longer
And this is of course not going into how this perk can be used to grief lobbies, such as letting someone kill themselves on hook sooner, or saving someone who wants to go next and then watching as they run to the killer and let themselves get downed anyway, leaving you with nothing.
This perk is #########, it is not some new meta-defining godsend, it's just bad and will be forgotten about in less then a month.
Shoulder The Burden costs you hook state to activate, not a health state, a HOOK state, those things that you only get 2 of before you die
taking a hook state of a weaker teammate as someone with better chase skills is a huge benefit, you'll learn it once you actually use the perk properly.
In the absolute best case scenario, you activate this perk on a teammate, and both of you live
in the absolute best scenario in soloQ, you will make teammate that is bad in chase useful for killing killer's hook pressure and you will waste awfully lots of killer's time.
Worst case scenario you activate the perk, die because of the Exposed, and then your teammate dies less then a minute later anyway because they're bad at the game
worst case scenario: you literally unhook the survivor in front of the killer and end up trading hook and doing literally nothing (your own mistake).
In the majority of cases, you activate the perk, and then the killer either now chases you because you've given up a hook state to save someone else, the person you saved dies 3 minutes later anyway leaving you a hook state closer to death, or absolutely nothing of note happens because the killer wasn't going to try and force the person you saved to second-stage anyway, meaning you accomplished absolutely nothing but getting yourself closer to death just to keep someone in the game for a little bit longer
killer chases you - wastes a lot of time
killer hooks that survivor again - they have to burn through additional hook state all over again.
1min of wasted killer's time is 1min of a gen progress per survivor. 3 minutes you mentioned are 2 whole gens IF one survivor only is repairing them.
And this is of course not going into how this perk can be used to grief lobbies, such as letting someone kill themselves on hook sooner, or saving someone who wants to go next and then watching as they run to the killer and let themselves get downed anyway, leaving you with nothing.
this is completely playerside fault lol.
This perk is #########, it is not some new meta-defining godsend, it's just bad and will be forgotten about in less then a month.
yeah, every meta perk is crap because average player just doesn't know how to use those
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@Oputeeva said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850788#Comment_3850788
Nurse will be a lot stronger now with Floods+Compass, so sad😭, please add a HUD that shows that our aura was revealed like in 2v8 mode, because I don't want to wait until the end of a match and waste time on this to see the killer build, or as a solution add match history like in mobile dbd, so that I can see the killer build later
why should we add possibility for survivors to know when to prerun to a safe tile just because Nurse has problem of insane synergy with aura perks? Just make her suffer from Blindness when charging her blinks
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imho, worst thing about flashbangs is audio bug causing them to be completely silent most of the times you throw them
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@DragonMasterDarren said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851137#Comment_3851137
None of those perks listed actively get you killed sooner if you try and use them
none does StB if you know not to unhook in front of the killer and know how to chase :D
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@thrkeybs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851014#Comment_3851014
I can see how that might confuse you, so no problem, I'll help: Both sides ask for more strength to counter their opponent!
So, what exactly was the point you felt so smug in trying to make?
Yes, survivors ask for more buffs. You're actually helping my point, because what I'm saying is that survivor is currently in a weak and unfun play state due to all the changes to make killer easier.
If you're trying to say survivors are asking for more base kit features to counter their opponents.. yeah, duh?
game is currently cattering to casual players on both sides more than actual serious players, this is why e.g. Singularity's skill floor was significantly lowered with recent changes.
Thing is, people on survivor side beg for more basekit features/perks that will reduce the skill floor of playing their role to a point where you can put your brain on autopilot and usually win.
People basically want game to counter strategies of their opponents while those same players make 0 skill input
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@DragonMasterDarren said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851010#Comment_3851010
I have seen the perk used, I have tried to get value out of this perk, it has done absolutely nothing of notice beyond getting somebody killed sooner then they otherwise would have
This perk is not good unless the killer is actively letting survivors get value from it
so...Reassurance, DS, OTR, Deliverance and Wicked are also bad by this logic?
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@thrkeybs said:
Anything that provides survivors a form of agency is seen as "problematic" and OP.
If it were up to killer mains, survivors would have no perks, run at 85% speed, and would be constantly exposed.
It's like y'all feel a sense of entitlement to always win — and if you lost, for some reason, it must be nerfed.
sorry to bother you, but just ask yourself which side is the one asking for more basekit features to counter every single strategy of their opponents ;)
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@Lixadonna said:
Sorry you can't handle High MMR. Maybe get good instead of blaming an Offering.
while i can agree in terms of average pub experience where people usually can't get value out of their own map offering, being sent to Eyrie or Springwood for example against any team that has at least basic tiles knowledge level is literally the most frustrating experience and loss can be completely caused by terrible map design
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850921#Comment_3850921
I mean, in this magical hypothetical scenario you also have to have 4 survivors all running the perk for this to even be guaranteed (along with some pretty tight coordination). Otherwise random chance dictates that there's a much, much greater chance the one person who brought STB is already hooked in that case.
And if you have 4 copies of one perk on the survivor team and only one of those 4 even gets value, that sounds like a gigantic win for the killer already.
this ain't a magical hypothetical scenario at all lol.
@DragonMasterDarren said:
If you're going out of your way to try and tunnel someone out at 5 gens, then sure, Shoulder the Burden is going to be punishing to play against, If you're a normal person that plays the game normally and not like your family is being held at gunpoint, then the perk will do almost nothing of note
are we really going over another scenario of complete lack of awareness for true perk potential?
We already saw it with lack of awareness for aggressive usage of anti-tunneling perks thinking they are only good against tunneling, we already saw it with lack of awareness for hook greeding thinking it's only good when killer is camping. Can we please once see someone actually realize value of perks instead having a 99% narrowed viewpoint for them?
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850921#Comment_3850921
That won't have much of an effect, because if you aren't tunneling then you wouldn't chase the first survivor anyway, considering they just got unhooked. If you go for the unhooker, even if you don't get them instantly with the exposed downside, they are now on death hook and the situation doesn't change for the other two survivors.
It has no effect if you don't tunnel.
it has effects if you don't tunnel in case where you don't go to just fresh hook everyone over and over + having single survivor be able to Deli 2+ times and basically be used as hook meat to generate 0 hook pressure for killer is extremely useful, especially when person using StB is very good in chases
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nerfed to 12%, but at the core, totem spawns need to be reworked asap
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only thing i hate about it is that janky lingering stun hitbox, making killer get stunned even if they avoid it
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@CountOfTheFog said:
If a Survivor is swaping hook states, and the Killer is going for a 4K, the Killer will still need a total of 12 Hooks, correct? (Assuming nobody is left on hook to go to the next stage)
In other words, it doesn't change how much hooking a Killer must do, right?
it doesn't change amount of hooking for the killer, but it changes the hooking order and prioritization, meaning it will hardcore force killers that are too weak to spread hooks into a lose-lose situation, especially if you take in mind the fact that this way, single survivor can proc Deliverance/Wicked 2+ times, single survivor that is not that good in chase can literally buy enormous amount of time for their team by staying on first hook twice after getting StB-ed by a survivor that is a good player and can easily play around additional hook state. So:
- it's a brutally good perk for soloQ that let's you basically carry your team by helping people that are getting tunneled tremendously (if they decide not to go next on hook);
- is a final piece of a complete nullifying of killer's hook pressure puzzle;
- if good surv has it, killer is led into a lose-lose situation, since they will either waste a lot of time chasing that survivor or chasing someone else + unhooked one for +1 hook state
this perk won't have high pickrate in pubs because average survivor player lacks macro knowledge and will thus fail to understand it's value (same as with Deli, Wicked, Reassurance etc.)
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@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
It's not like it's a bad idea overall. Did not feel like it hurt 2v8. At least as a survivor, you're like "oh crap, I gotta run", and don't just sit somewhere like a potato not knowing that the killer knows exactly where you are.
problem is, 2v8 is a chaotic gamemode, 1v4 is much more of a strategy.
Having an indicator that your aura has been read at the given moment makes autopiloting by prerunning to a safe tile as soon as you see your aura has been read so easy.
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@Wraff said:
How likely will we see the removal of the ability to kill on hook in the next few years as a way to reinforce the DC penalty?
Because BHVR prioritizes forcing people to play their game for as long as possible over improving the overall experience.if you are feeling "forced to play the game as long as possible" why are you even playing the game?
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@joel84 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849501#Comment_3849501
What do you mean by dirty method? HexPerks have to be strong, otherwise it's not worth the effort.
Hex perks are meant to be high risk-high reward perks, while only ~10% of them are strong, while Thrill buff is a terrible bandaid to the bigger problem which are hex spawns.