Monlyth
Monlyth
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@aregularplayer said:
So the MoSt BrOkEn OmG BaLAnCeD LanDInG map isn't exactly the most survivor sided? Interesting...
Probably because it's not quite as broken if you don't bring Balanced Landing. I've played on it as a survivor before; it tends to be easier than other maps, but you can't loop the killer forever if you don't have BL.
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@AshleyWB said:
I feel like the surge in trapper players is because of the challenges in the rift. I hope they are aware of different parts of data being skewed.
That's probably true. They seem to be aware that stats can only tell you what is happening, not why it's happening.
In the meantime, I definitely appreciate the effort here. Good on you, BHVR.
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Demogorgon is probably the strongest killer in terms of brute strength, because a predator as large as the Demogorgon would likely be strong and fast enough to toss a human around like a rag doll, and gut them with a simple swift motion of its claws.
Spirit and Nurse are ghosts, and therefore would win a fight if they can't be wounded in a traditional sense (But that seems to be a big if, because they can still be affected by solid objects, like pallets and Decisive Strike).
Myers is the strongest out of the human killers, based on the movies. Strong enough to lift a human right off the ground with one hand, and stab them through the stomach with the other hand. He's also shrugged off numerous injuries that would be fatal for a normal human.
Freddy is potentially the most powerful killer, since Freddy has reality-warping powers and near-total invulnerability while in his dream world. In his world, Freddy is akin to a god and you are reduced to his playthings.
So I think it's a draw between those five Killers. Who would win is mostly a matter of opinion.
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@DelsKibara said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/863548#Comment_863548
Yes and Spirit's drawback is not being able to see any survivors. That's a pretty huge drawback.
I guess I shouldn't say fun, because fun is subjective. But I do find her to be fun to go up against. Having a killer that keeps you on your toes, makes you feel like you're actually in danger, makes every moment you work on a gen a relief. That's the kind of killers I want to see in this game. Killers that are powerful and require extensive knowledge to go up against.
But again, that's why I say I am in the minority. I don't want to win games easily. I want to work for it. To get moments of great teamwork in as a survivor or moments where I feel like I am snowballing to victory as a killer. Being able to "gg ez" my way through the game is not how I like to play games. Games are just not fun when they aren't challenging or difficult, when luck isn't involved much.
It's one of the reasons why I think the they should just buff killers more than nerfing them, make them an actual threat. But I digress, we're going way off topic with the original post. Which is about suggesting changes to Spirit to make her seem more fair.
It would be a huge drawback... if the Spirit player was deaf. The Nurse has a power which makes it near-impossible to loop her, and forces you to rely only on stealth, jukes and Exhaustion perks to avoid getting hit. It also gives her several seconds of fatigue every time she uses it, and has limited charges so she can't spam it, and reduces her base movement speed to a crawl, AND has clear auditory and visual warnings attached to it. And yet she's still one of the best killers.
It's Multiplayer Game Design 101: You always have to consider how fun a mechanic is to play against, not just how fun it is to use. And an essential part of creating a good character in a multiplayer game is attaching warnings and telegraphs to their abilities, so the other player can properly react to it.
I have zero issue with strong killers. You don't see me complaining about Hillbilly or Huntress; in fact, I hold them up as an excellent example of strong, well-designed killers. Because their powers have clear auditory and visual warnings before they come out, and there's always room to react to them and play around them.
I strongly disagree with the idea that we need to buff killers, especially killers that are already performing so well. Every killer in the game already gets more than two kills on average, even in the red ranks. Changes to Killers should be focused around making them more fun to play with and play against, not just around making them more powerful.
If we want to make Spirit seem more fair, then her power should have a clear auditory and visual warning when she uses it. It's a simple change, but it would accomplish that goal quite well.
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@DelsKibara said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/863531#Comment_863531
Considering she goes blind with a slight muffled sound (the vacuum sound she makes can make things confusing). She shouldn't have something clear.
Consistency is not how you make killers that are unique in how they play and play against. That's why people disliked Myers' Undetectable Change. Immunity to Spine Chill/Premonition was what made T1 Myers scary to go up against.
I know I may be in the minority here but whenever I go up against a Spirit, even in an SWF where everyone else is groaning, I am probably the only one who gets excited. Though that is mainly because I want survivor to be much harder than it is right now. And Spirit is that kind of difficulty that is also fair in my opinion, if you've played her and learned her for a while.
Every Killer's power has drawbacks to it. Trapper and Hag have to stop moving in order to place down a trap. Does that mean that Trapper and Hag should have no auditory or visual warnings attached to their power? No.
Never confuse "interesting" or "unique" with "fun". A killer that can instantly mori you the moment they see you would be unique, but certainly not fun.
And yes, you are in the minority. Spirit is an easy killer to learn, who is very obnoxious to play against. You shouldn't have to dedicate a huge amount of time to learning how to play against one specific killer. If you have good Survivor fundamentals and understand how the killer's power works, you should be able to win against them. And considering that even the best Survivor players often struggle against Spirit, I'd hardly call her difficulty "fair".
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@DelsKibara said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/863510#Comment_863510
Her speed is limited to a low duration time. And a long recharge time. Other than that she is a 110% killer.
She won't be as powerful if her phasing has clear tells. As a survivor can just choose the most obviously safe option. By walking towards the husk if they knew the Spirit is phasing. It should be hard to notice and requires you to pay attention
No, it really shouldn't. Spirit already has all of the makings of a top-tier Killer; high mobility to traverse the map quickly, and a power that drastically reduces chase times.
Literally every other killer has clear auditory and visual warnings when they use their power. Spirit should not be an exception to the rule, especially considering how powerful her base kit is.
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@DelsKibara said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/863470#Comment_863470
Being invisible is part of that "psychological manipulation"
Sure, but I really have to disagree with people when they say that Spirit would be over-nerfed if she actually had some clear warnings attached to her power. Her power lets her turn invisible and move at a ridiculous speed in any direction she wants, to the point where the only way to escape it is to trick her into moving in the wrong direction (Which is obviously unreliable against a decent Spirit with headphones). If she had warnings attached to her Phase Walk, she'd still be a very fast and very powerful killer.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/862947#Comment_862947
This is with gaming in general though. While I still believe the majority of gamers are normal people, there are also these weirdos that believe you need a certain skill level to earn the right to play a game.
The fact that there are people with a certain gaming skill level that get all cocky and offensive towards others with a lesser skill level is just baffling to me. It's as if they believe gaming skill is in any way an important skill to have as a human and people who don't have that skill are lesser beings. It's honestly pathetic, sad and even scary, because you realise how many people there are without an actual life outside of video games.
I've just started playing Paladins again and I'm not the greatest at the game, and the insults I've already got thrown at me and others are crazy. Often amusing, but still.
I know exactly what you mean. Often, when I choose to escape during the EGC when a survivor is on the hook, I get nothing but insults thrown my way because I chose to cut my losses instead of playing into the killer's hands and giving them a free kill.
Even if I'm injured, can't heal and don't have Borrowed Time, yet I had 3 or more unhooks and did several heals over the course of the game, it's not enough unless I make a downright suicidal play in an often-futile attempt to save my teammate.
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@Skaraok said:
I completely agree with everything except for the charge animation. Psychological manipulation is part of the core concept of Spirit and I think it'd be nice to keep at least one element of that. Survivors need to be aware of the limitations of her power and get punished for not paying attention while fighting against her. I also think that if these changes went through, I'd like to keep the current lack of a vault animation for the little extra mindgame potential.
To me, the core concept of the Spirit is being able to turn invisible and move really fast, in any direction she chooses, and able to change directions as much as she wants. The whole "psychological manipulation" aspect of it really doesn't work in practice.
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@Kamikaze_Rose said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/860470#Comment_860470
This is, essentially, every reason it failed. I couldn’t quite put my finger on why I didn’t enjoy the game anymore, but it was basically all this. They failed to include any of the things that made DBD fun and successful.
Well, it shouldn't have just been a carbon copy of DBD. That would have only brought an even swifter demise to Deathgarden. But I think they really needed to polish it more and evaluate the game's design before they released it to the general public. Yet another casualty of Steam Early Access.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/859668#Comment_859668
It's ok. Just missing that "something". Could never quite put my finger on why I was bored.
"If everybody likes your game, but nobody loves it, the game will fail."
I think a major issue with Deathgarden is that it tried to simultaneously appeal to the FPS arena shooter demographic, and the Dead By Daylight demographic. Playing Dead By Daylight revolves around out-thinking your opponents with good decisions, fake-outs, and mind games. It's more akin to a 1v4 chess game, than a hot-blooded shooter.
But Deathgarden doesn't have as much of that. Running away from the Hunter is rarely more complicated than "Break line of sight by any means necessary", and playing as the Hunter puts a lot more emphasis on aiming than mindgames (Also, the Hunter has way too many buttons; my fingers couldn't even reach all of the buttons with the default key bindings).
There are no complicated looping structures with optimal routes that the best survivors and killers have to learn to play around. There are no pallets or other limited map resources that the survivors have to manage carefully. Both ammo and power cores (The two resources that both Hunters and Scavengers need) are so abundant and easily obtained that the Hunter and Scavengers rarely actually contest them. Every game tended to play out the same way. The Hunter zips around the map activating Drones, the Scavengers run around collecting blood, then the Scavengers deposit blood and the Hunter contests it.
Not a lot of variety between games, or between the Hunters, for that matter. The Hunters mostly played the same way, and their powers usually only made a difference in a chase, because their constructs were so easily destroyed by the Scavengers outside of a chase (Since, again, ammo was so abundant that the Scavengers almost never ran out).
The lack of a hook mechanic also hurt the game, I think. Recycling and executing just isn't as interesting, partly because it doesn't create any room for teamplay or altruism. They tried to supplement it with revives, but those just weren't as fun or interesting for either side.
There also tended to be a lot of downtime during matches. A common tactic for Scavengers was to hide throughout most of the late game and wait for the timer to tick down, because the Hunter had no real way to flush them out when the maps were so huge and there were so many bushes and buildings for the Scavengers to hide in. Even if you activated every Drone on the map (Which isn't realistic for a normal match), there were many blind spots that Scavengers could hide in without giving away their position.
Also, the perks really aren't very game-changing or interesting compared to the survivor and killer perks in DBD. And the progression system was a little too easy to get to 100%.
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@johnmwarner said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/854053#Comment_854053
No offense, but you think that team was optimal? The OoO messed up right away that gave Freddy a free hit and blinded him before he needed to be. Had Freddy not gotten that first hit the first gen would have been done before he could head there.
When he did fake the teleport the one survivor ran from it, into an open area, definitely not optimal.
If hr really thinks this team is optimal I would probably laugh watching this guys streams when he hits a real rank one SWF
The OoO got greedy and assumed that taking a hit wouldn't be a big deal. He had a chance to drop the pallet, and he gave it up to extend the chase for longer and save the pallet for later. It says more about the Killer's skill than the survivors' skill, because the Killer anticipated that the survivor would get greedy, and equipped an add-on to punish them for it.
The survivor ran into an open area after the fake teleport because it's Shelter Woods; the whole map is an open area. Otzdarva made it a point to be unpredictable with his teleports throughout the entire game, so that the survivors never knew which direction he was coming from.
Anyone can do better in a match if they have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. But even an optimal group doesn't have the foresight to see the future.
If you're going to just make up flimsy exceptions every time I dispute your claim, then there's really no point in talking to you.
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@BunnyTheHutt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/856591#Comment_856591
Mate it takes 8 seconds too do a totem, that is literally nothing. And just because you know where Ruin was broken doesn't mean you are going too find that survivor. It isn't the best perk in the game by a long shot, it is strong but not the best. It has too many downsides for an upside that is pretty much luck based.
Plus, just because top streamers and players always run it doesn't mean they want too run it. Tru3 constantly complains about how bs the RNG of Ruin is when it comes too spawning, and no one enjoys bringing a totem perk for it too be broken in 10 seconds and you pretty much wasted a perk slot.
Then what IS the best perk in the game? It says a lot about Ruin when streamers complain about getting screwed over by totem spawns, yet they run Ruin anyway and put it at the top of killer perk tier lists.
Even in a worst-case scenario where Ruin gets cleansed right at the start of the match, it gives you a noise notification that lets you know where you should look for survivors, at a time when you normally have no information on where the survivors are. Even at its absolute worst, Ruin gives you a major boon that you normally wouldn't have.
Every other stall perk comes with its own laundry list of downsides, with an upside that's much less powerful in a real match.
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@KillermainBTWm8 said:
Oni Wan Kenobi: "Hello There!"
General Oni! You are a bold one.
*Points to Claudette with Flashlight*
Bully him!
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/856712#Comment_856712
Anyways also it depends on the killer whether ruin is really needed like michael myers i use m and a pgtw bbq and enduring. On doctor depending on the build distressing unnerving presense overcharge and bbq (or thantophobia to slow them down when injured.
Well, anyone can be successful, with or without ruin. It's not mandatory against anything but the most well-coordinated, full-tryhard, Rank 1 SWF groups. It's just a matter of good perks vs. better perks.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/856684#Comment_856684
If you really think about ruin being beneficial because of that you must love haunted ground because not only does it give you a general area it also exposes them!
Yeah. It's a pretty decent perk. Great for protecting other Hex perks, like Ruin.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/856627#Comment_856627
And if im on the other side of the map what happens once i get over there they know it notifies me theyll be gone and i got nothing but lost ruin. And its really not. Right now bbq is the most runned.
Getting a notification takes the guesswork out of which generators to patrol. You just learned the general area where the survivors are. Normally, when the game has just started, you don't know that. You can only guess, and if you guess wrong, it can often cost you a gen.
BBQ & Chili is the most-used perk because it's a useful perk that gets you bloodpoints. Streamers will always use Ruin if they're going full tryhard, but they won't always use BBQ because they often already have all the bloodpoints they need.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/856591#Comment_856591
Yes but ruins dead and aint helping you the rest of the game.it saved you like 10 seconds of gen progress because it spawned right infront of the survivor yay.
And it allowed you to make a beeline towards the survivor that cleansed it, instead of randomly guessing which generators the survivors might be working on during the ever-important early game.
You're fighting a losing battle here. Ruin is the best Killer perk in the game. The devs know it, streamers know it, top-ranking players know it, and the community knows it.
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Yes, never. Time spent cleansing a Ruin totem is time spent not working on the generators. Not to mention that it immediately tells the Killer where they can find a survivor.
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@BunnyTheHutt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/855495#Comment_855495
Ruin isn't bad, but it's simply too situational. it'll either last the whole match and bring the game too a halt, or it'll be useless because Survivors spawn on it, they know how too hit skillchecks, they find it first try, etc.
A better early game perk personally is Corrupt Intervention, it does what Ruin does, but it can't be broken in 10 seconds and survivors have too waste time looking for a non blocked gen, and it can give killers good early starts.
The problem with Corrupt Intervention is that it only makes it easier to find your first survivor, and doesn't actually do much to slow down gen speeds. You can only chase one survivor at a time, and the rest of the survivors will still be able to work on the gens normally while you chase a survivor.
The strength of Ruin is that you don't need to do anything to activate it or take advantage of its effect, it slows down gen repairs for all of the survivors at once regardless of their distance from you (And regardless of how good they are at skill checks), it forces them to waste time looking for and cleansing the totem, and it gives you an easy way to flush out the survivors by periodically patrolling your Ruin totem.
Frankly, calling the best perk in the game "situational" is laughable. There is never a situation where Ruin isn't useful.
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The devs changed it because Survivors always have a choice to play in a SWF against a high-ranking killer.
The Killer doesn't have the luxury of choice. He doesn't know what ranks the survivors are until the game is finished, and if he runs into a full tryhard SWF that are all ranked much higher than him, all he can do is either make a futile attempt at winning, or disconnect.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/855529#Comment_855529
I personally power through it it isnt to hard to hit those great skill checks.
Well, even the best players don't hit the Great skill check every single time, and having the gen timer pause and regress is a very significant loss of time. And even if you're up against survivors who are botting and hit a Great skill check every single time, you're still preventing 2% progress for every skillcheck they land, which adds up fast over the course of a game.
Players like Otzdarva and Tru3tal3nt run Ruin anytime they decide to play seriously. It's considered the best perk in the game, because it IS the best perk in the game.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/855495#Comment_855495
It is when everyone gen taps has totems memorized or spawns in the dumbest place possible. Maybe were in different ranks though.
Buddy, even in the highest ranks, no other perk will buy you as much time as Ruin. If the survivors are gen tapping, then it's going to take MUCH longer for the gens to finish, to the point where you're better off just powering through the skill checks. If the survivors are hunting for your totem, then they're not touching the generators. And I can't tell you how many free hits I've gotten because the Ruin totem draws survivors to it like moths to a flame.
The best players in the world use Ruin in virtually every build. To me, nothing indicates a lack of game knowledge more than believing that Ruin is a bad perk.
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@Endstille I really can't take you seriously if you're going to call Ruin a bad perk.
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@newduls said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/853821#Comment_853821
my numbers were a base line, its for the purposes of providing a frame of reference.
Here is another example that provides a demonstration of the power role the survivors enjoy
the desired avg chase time is ~30 secs. This can be easily understood by the BL timers and the impact BL has on the game.
If all 4 survivors execute 30 sec chases that result in hooks. Assuming survivors only focus on gens. The survivors will have accomplished 90% of their goal, while the killer only 33%.
These are all worse case scenarios of course, but I'm only intending to demonstrate the nature of the roles in their current implementation when played by those of maximum skill.
In its most basic for the survivor is the power role, as such mistakes made by the survivor also have greater impact on the outcome of the game, which is why BHVR has provided so many tools for survivors to circumvent those mistakes.
Power role does not mean you dominate without effort or its the "easy" role. Playing survivor to perfection requires more skill then playing killer. But a perfect survivor team will always beat a perfect killer.
Well, again, your example leaves out a lot of important elements.
Getting a successful hook gives a LOT of advantages to the killer. It puts the hooked survivor out of commission, it forces another survivor to waste time traveling to the hook, unhooking them, walking away from the hook, and healing the unhooked survivor; it gives a noise notification once the survivor is unhooked, and it allows the killer to disrupt multiple survivors at once if he chooses to follow the notification.
The nature of the Killer's objective is fundamentally different from the survivors' objective. The more hooks you get, the more the game slows down and the easier it becomes to get another hook. The closer you get to achieving your goal, the harder it becomes for the survivors to achieve their goal.
Not to mention that many killers will prioritize getting a third hook on a single survivor if possible, rather than getting first hooks on multiple survivors. Once they've eliminated at least one survivor, the game swings heavily in their favor.
Also, I don't think it's true that a perfect survivor team will always beat a perfect killer. Here's an example video of a full tryhard SWF team (Featuring a designated looper with OoO) going up against a full tryhard Freddy, and Freddy ultimately emerged victorious:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5uUUAz7m1U -
@johnmwarner said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/853821#Comment_853821
All good points, I think the most frustrating part for me as a killer is how much of an impact the early game has, if you get your first down and hook in a minute then start another chase you are pressuring 3 survivors just like you said.
However if you go to the wrong gen first AND the first survivor you find happens to be the “looper,” of the team you could be faced with 3 gens done by the first hook.
Well, I think that's just the nature of the game. Dead by Daylight tends to be very snowbally, and the early game can have a huge impact on the overall outcome of the match. I've found that an early gen grab can often spell doom for the survivor team, because your whole team has to waste so much time going for unhooks, trying to heal, and trying to lose the killer instead of working on gens in peace. A lot depends on how quickly the killer finds their first survivor and gets their first hook.
I won't deny that survivor tends to be more of a chill role because of the nature of their objective, and there tends to be a lot of pressure on Killers because they have no teammates to pick up their slack and time isn't on their side, but I don't think that necessarily means survivors are the "power role".
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@newduls said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/853659#Comment_853659
Survivors are the "power" role because all other things being equal the survivors control the pace of the game. Due an disproportionate distribution of objective requirements and the fact that the survivors objectives are the PvE component of the game and effectively fixed.
1 killer must complete 12 hooks to end the game. Hit time is 3 secs. 2 hits. Currently pickup time I believe is 3 secs. Hook time ~3 secs as well. So killer to complete all his objectives is 12 x 12. 144 secs
4 survivors must complete 5 generators to end the game. One survivor can complete 1 generator in working solo in 80 secs (without skill checks). If you measure it, again at excluding all other variables, lets say 4 survivors on 4 gens and all 4 on the 5th that puts total time to complete all generators a 108 secs. (4 on 1 takes 28 secs).
so you're comparing 144 to 108. For the killer to be on "equal" ground his time to complete his objectives should be 1/4 the time of the survivors if you want to position him as a Power role that requires the entire opposing team be equal to him, or 1/3 or 1/2 or 1 if you want to position him as varying degrees of power up to equal to a single survivor.
Your math is missing several crucial elements.
-If a survivor is in a chase, they can't work on generators until they lose the killer.
-Every time a survivor gets hooked, that survivor can no longer work on generators or assist other survivors until another survivor comes to unhook them, wasting precious time for both survivors.
-Once a survivor is put on the hook, the killer is free to find another survivor to chase while other survivors are going for unhooks.
-If a survivor is put on their last hook, then they are dead and can no longer work on generators or go for unhooks.
-The survivors also have to waste additional time opening the exit gates before they can escape.
So, if we assume that the killer is always chasing one survivor at any given time, then that leaves only three survivors to work on all of the generators. Instead of taking 108 seconds to complete all of the generators, the survivors will now need around 140 seconds to complete all the generators, at the bare minimum (80 seconds to complete the first 3 generators, ~45 seconds to complete the fourth generator with two survivors working on it, and ~15 seconds for the last generator to be completed, if the third survivor repairs it on his own for the first 45 seconds, then the others join him after finishing the fourth generator). Then the survivors need to waste 20 seconds getting the Exit Gates open. So the killer has 144 seconds to kill all the survivors, and it will take 160 seconds before the survivors get the exit gates open.
If we add hooks to the equation, then things become even more favorable for the killer. Every time the killer gets a hook, a survivor needs to stop working on the generators to go unhook them. If a survivor is hooked 3 times, then they're permanently removed from the game and can no longer work on generators.
If we look at your equation and assume that the killer gets hooks as fast as technically possible (6 seconds to get 2 hits, 3 seconds to pickup, 3 seconds to hook), it quickly becomes apparent that the survivors won't be able to keep up. Every successful hook forces the hooked survivor to waste at least 6 seconds of their own time, and forces a different survivor to waste 3 seconds unhooking them. If we assume that the killer hooks every survivor in order and doesn't get any early kills, then the survivors will start dying, one by one, after the 9th hook, which will occur after 108 seconds if we just go by your math.
You can calculate all the details if you want, but I think my point still stands; the numbers only favor the Survivors if the Killer idles all game and doesn't chase or hook any of them.
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@Vetrathene said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/853605#Comment_853605
I'm not saying survivors are brain dead, they take some skill and concentration. Just not nearly as much as killer, nor are they punished as hard for making mistakes as a killer is. Also the pace of the game is dictated by the survivors and how well they play and how much presence the killer can place on the map. So without that ability, the game becomes mainly in the survivors hands.
Yeah, survivors are more of a chill role, because they spend a lot of their time working on generators. If you want the objective to force survivors to take a more active role, then go play Deathgarden. But saying that they're not punished as hard for making mistakes is a pretty ridiculous notion. The difference between taking a hit and not taking a hit is huge. The difference between getting downed and escaping a chase will very often mean the difference between victory and defeat. And if you make the wrong decisions about what to do and where to go, it can very often lead to death.
I really haven't seen anything to convince me that the survivors are truly the "power role". I mostly just see a bunch of buzzwords being thrown around by killer mains after they get outplayed by survivors who are ranked much higher than them. If anything, you should be blaming the matchmaking and ranking system for that. Just look at high-ranking killer mains like Otzdarva. He mains a mid-tier killer, the Trapper, and yet he can often get 4Ks against some of the most experienced survivors around, while playing with a stupid meme build.
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@Vetrathene said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/853532#Comment_853532
I think killer needs to be the power role. Sure it might be more stressful going alone no matter what, but right now the power role is the survivor. And that goes against the whole modus operandi of the game. Survivors should have to struggle to do well. Killers should too, just not as much as they currently are for a majority of them.
Yet every Killer, on average, gets more than two kills per game, even in the red ranks. Thus, even the worst killer in the game wins more than they lose.
Survivors are only the power role if you give them room to take control of the game. You ultimately have most of the control over whether a survivor lives or dies; if so inclined, you can play Insidious Bubba and facecamp a survivor to death, and assuming you can end at least one chase before the exit gates are open, then the survivors can do nothing to prevent their teammate's death. Or if you're not satisfied with one death, you can bring an Ebony Mori and get multiple kills, quite easily.
Doing well as a survivor is never an easy task; if it was, then there would be a lot more survivors at the red ranks.
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@Vetrathene said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/853363#Comment_853363
I agree killers have gotten better. But my statement that they are far more stressful to play then survivor still stands. You make a mistake as a killer, and thats not only amplified four times, its usually a far worse punishment then when a survivor makes a mistake. So why isn't it that killers have more power to compensate?
Well, I think Peanits has an excellent point here. Playing killer will always be more stressful, because it all depends on you. Nobody has your back if you mess up. It's why many of the most-played videogames are all team games; it really makes the game less stressful when you have other people to back you up if you make a mistake.
Unless you were to make killers a faceroll-easymode that can just stomp the survivors with minimal effort. But then, nobody would want to play Survivor, and a lot of killer mains would get bored if there's no challenge to it.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/852656#Comment_852656
I don't know if we'd be able to go into details like add-ons, perks, items, offerings on each killer. That would be a ton of data to try to squeeze into a graph (each of the 17 killers have ~20 offerings alone). We'd probably stay away from survivor usage as well since they're purely cosmetic. Perk usage across the board might be nice, though.
I think you should create a section for the most-used Survivor perks, the most-used Killer perks, the most-used Killers, and the most successful Killers by rank (e.g. How many kills does Nurse get on average in Red Ranks? How many in Purple Ranks, Green Ranks, Yellow Ranks, Brown Ranks?)
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@UncannyLuck said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/851402#Comment_851402
That build has nothing to do with these changes and would've worked without them. It's entirely on the Nemesis perk (or beasts of prey perk).
People are calling it a nerf because the negative changes don't outweigh the positive changes, in their opinions. I personally think the vaulting changes are big, but a 4% (125% * 1.04 = 130%) increase in move speed is really... meh compared to other movement abilities in the game.
I think the movespeed buff isn't as significant as the vault speed buffs, but still significant considering the nature of Legion's power- a simple speed boost that allows you to move in any direction you choose, and run loops normally without worrying about bumping into things like you would with Billy's chainsaw, or getting blocked by windows/pallets like you would as Spirit.
@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/851402#Comment_851402
Plague only needs to hit you once. The sickness will progress from there on it's own unless you cleanse and we all know how well that turns out.
The tracking I'm refering to is that broken Survivors leave a trail whenever they touch anything, not that it shows the Plague when they get infected (which itself works as early game stall or tracking which I didn't even list). It's harder to compare their tracking aspects compared to their chase aspects since it isn't a 1 to 1 comparison but it's significantly easier to counter Legions tracking than Plagues tracking.
As for Mobility, Frenzy doesn't reduce patrol times at all due to the fatigue, so it only matters in terms of a chase and even then only for the first hit. Plague can use the ranged effect from vile purge to get the same effect as mobility much like the Huntress, it's even a bit better in terms of that since the effective range for vile purge is 13 meters but the effective range for Frenzy is 12 meters. That range goes up if you have a height advantage.
Plagues vile purge also has no cooldown and almost no fatigue AND can be chained with a basic attack for an early instant down much like a Huntress melee hatchet. Legions fatigue always prevents an immediate followup.
Well, if you hit them once with Vile Purge and then wait for them to get sick, that means you have to let the survivor escape. Legion will also hit you only once, but if he leaves after hitting you, then he can immediately make a beeline for another target, instead of making educated guesses like Plague.
I would argue that Legion's tracking is much more difficult to counter than Plague's in the early game. The only way to keep Legion from finding out exactly where all of the survivors are is to not take a hit from him, ever.
What is this "effective range" you speak of? When you have Feral Frenzy up, you can easily reach a target near the edge of your terror radius before it expires, which is a much longer distance than 12 meters.
Plague's power also has a wind-up time that slows down the Plague before and during its use, making it difficult to land its full duration on a survivor that knows how to loop and juke it. The early instant down you describe only works if the survivor takes the full brunt of your Vile Purge, which tends to be rare against experienced survivors.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/851230#Comment_851230
Myers has Stealth, faster vault speeds and a longer lunge in tier 3. Pretty simple why he's relatively good there.
Plague is much closer to Legion but is less unwieldy. To list everything out:
- Plagues injury is permanent, against Legion a Survivor with medkits or healing perks can force you to keep using your power where otherwise you could have immediately downed them, this also means someone who's not confident in looping can give themselves a failsafe if needed. Plague offers none of this.
- As a consequence of the previous statement Plague is better at defending objectives and capitalizing on basement hooks. Against a Legion you can heal up before taking a risky play and the Legion will have to take a stun at one point or another to down you in response. Plague shuts this down entirely with the broken status.
- Plagues tracking effects are also permanent. Legion needs to keep using his power to regain his tracking abilities and until a Survivor mends they can't be tracked nor can they be used to initiate tracking. Broken Survivors will leave their trail of sickness no matter what and will be loud and glowing even with iron will.
- Plague has superior addons, specifically her apple addons and both her UR addons. Apples grant her guaranteed access to corrupt, which is both good in it's own right and also forces Survivors to cleanse to Survive it thus granting you even more corrupt. Black incense is by far the best tracking method in the game once set up, which is extremely easy to do and can easily force Survivors to cleanse, but since they don't know if the addon is in play that means they are always pressured to cleanse just by it's existence.
- The Plague (as a result of the latest changes) has better perk synergies. Specifically with thanatophobia (where she is the only Killer that can meaningfully make use out of it), dying light, the new bloody echos ect. Legion does have a synergy with these perks, however if needed the Survivor can just heal anyways to deal with the perk in the event it becomes a problem and then not heal otherwise. Plague presents no such option and thus is more consistent.
And even after ALL of this Plague is still only just decent and not actually fully Viable (which I define more loosely than some people like Tru3 do)
Well, if you list all of Plague's strengths and none of her downsides compared to Legion, then yeah, she seems pretty good.
But Plague has no mobility whatsoever, no mechanics to directly stall objective completion, and a tracking ability that only works if the survivors choose to touch infected objects. She also needs to repeatedly land Vile Purges on survivors before they actually get sick; getting a survivor fully sick can easily take a lot more time than getting a hit with FF, especially in small enclosed maps.
And honestly, if you look at the actual numbers, every killer is viable. Every killer gets more than 2 kills on average, even at red ranks.
@UncannyLuck said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/851331#Comment_851331
https://youtu.be/OgSkP4bZy9o?t=60
I think the video kinda explains itself - guaranteed down in 30s regardless of what the survivor does. And that was with the legion not really chasing either.
Interesting. So why are people calling these changes a nerf again?
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/850526#Comment_850526
Fatigue MS is 2.7 M/S and is identical to the Nurse's fatigue during that time. It likely feels faster because you are shorter.
DW will go down in a chase so long as you are outside of the TR.
According to the wiki, Nurse moves at 0.96 m/s during fatigue. But the wiki doesn't say anything about Legion's fatigue animation. I've noticed many times that I can cover a surprising amount of ground during Legion's fatigue animation, while Nurse's fatigue animation feels like I'm trying to push a Nurse-shaped statue.
And that's good to know that Deep Wounds will tick down if you're in a chase but outside the TR. But I still doubt that "moonwalking" with deep wounds will ever be anything more than a gimmick. Why waste a perk slot and wait 30 seconds for the survivor to drop dead when you can just press M1?
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@Raven014 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/851230#Comment_851230
I'll probably have to test out the new Legion when it comes out, but if in practice they're worse, I'll still be complaining about it.
Myers, Plague, and GF all essentially have instadowns as a side ability. They also have something that their power gives to help down people. Legion's is the only nonlethal ability in the game. It doesn't help them get downs. Even clown's gas helps him down people.
Well, but how many of those 2 kills are DCs from people mad they got downed by Legion? Legion appears to do well on Xbox, but maybe they should be asking why are they only good on that platform (even then, throughout my time playing Legion, they are really weak compared to killers like Billy who is far more common on Xbox)?
I just think it's kind of dumb they do this to Legion when Oni has essentially has a Blood Frenzy that can one shot people and break pallets quicky, and act as a billy chainsaw... and based on the PTB footage, it's not hard to get the Frenzy back up for him.
Well, Oni has to build up to his Blood Frenzy, in much the same way that Myers does. Oni starts out as a killer with no power until he gets a hit, then his power gives him a slightly improved tracking ability. He only gets his Blood Frenzy after farming a bunch of blood orbs, which slows him down. Then Blood Fury has a charge-up time before it activates in earnest, and a limited duration which soon forces him to go back to being an M1 killer, wasting his time farming blood instead of chasing or hitting or hooking survivors.
Legion doesn't have most of those restrictions on his power. His mobility is a straight-up speed boost instead of a hard-to-control dash (A dash that can't be used on most loops, btw). Legion can vault windows and pallets, while the Oni has to get past them the hard way. Legion can find out exactly where the survivors are once he gets a hit with Feral Frenzy, while the Oni's tracking abilities are much more limited. Legion can injure all four survivors on the enemy team, faster and more reliably than any other Killer.
As far as lethality goes, I would argue that Legion's power still helps him get downs. Feral Frenzy allows me to get first hits that would otherwise be nearly impossible. For example, if I find a survivor and they vault through a window on a god-loop before I can get to them, I can often pop Feral Frenzy, vault the window and get a hit that I wouldn't be able to with most other killers.
Every killer has their own strengths and weaknesses. Legion's strengths lie in his stall potential, his mobility, his tracking, his map pressure, and the ease of getting first hits on multiple survivors. Instead of dwelling on stuff that other killers have like insta-downs, why not just focus on playing to your strengths? Especially considering that they just buffed his mobility and his map pressure?
@Depressioned said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/851230#Comment_851230
Why do you keep talking about the SLIGHT Feral Frenzy buffs!? The best thing about Legion was how easy you could get the first hit, the fatigue cooldown still being 4 seconds still leaves survivors years to run to more loops. Slight buff to Frenzy speed isn't as impactful as you suggest, only in VERY slight situations. Also, don't talk about Myers and Ghostface not having powers to end loops. They both have one shot abilities, ending chases much sooner and actually scaring survivors with their power. Their stealth allows them to get first hits like Legion, so I don't see the trade off.
Ghostface rarely gets to actually use his insta-downs in red ranks. High-ranking survivors are too paranoid to let you stalk them for long enough. High-ranking killers often just use Ghostface like a better version of the Wraith, using his lack of a terror radius to get a first hit before survivors can react. Also, Ghostface has zero mobility, zero tracking ability, zero stall potential, and zero map pressure. He can also be looped just like any other M1 killer, with no real way to bypass pallets or windows.
Similar deal with Myers. Stalking until EW3 is deceptively difficult against high-ranking survivors, and having to spend precious time stalking instead of hitting can be costly. Like Ghostface, Myers also has no mobility, no tracking abilities, no stall potential, and no map pressure. And like any other M1 killer, Myers is vulnerable to pallets and windows. Also, since survivors know about your insta-downs and know when EW3 is active, they'll often choose to stay injured and genrush you during EW3, making your insta-down ability redundant.
Compared to both of them, Legion is better at stalling out the game because of Deep Wounds, and better at getting multiple injuries on multiple survivors, because of his ability to rapidly zip around the map and chase people down once he's gotten his first hit with FF. He doesn't have to waste time trying to sneak up on survivors in order to get hits during a FF chain.
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@Raven014 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/850972#Comment_850972
You are correct about that. There are other viable builds, and they'll probably get seen more than ever at this point. But it means it's the same as Pig's change, but unlike Pig, Legion needs to use their power to get a lot of hits and apply pressure. There are very few times where Pig's ambush is used to great effect in game.
Again, that's why I run frenzy duration addons (If I'm really having trouble with them, but I don't usually, so I run the iri button for more awareness), and play legion as a quick decision killer. Legion relies on all information at their disposal, and having DW helps greatly stall for time. You would not believe how many people I catch up to that barely finished mending is ridiculous. It forces them to stay in one place and remain injured for 15 seconds, which in a Legion game, every second matters. Survivors know you're playing a weak killer, and will take advantage of that to get gens done quickly... and that's with ruin.
Yeah, but how many survivors are going to give you that opportunity. Often times, survivors have a plan when chasing, one that often makes that incredibly difficult to catch their mistakes. And even if they make one mistake, they have perks to save them from their mistakes. DS lockers, Dead
I don't like playing Billy... and didn't even mention him. That argument is moot right now. But to entertain it, I'll mention that Billy's saw is one of his modes for movement, whereas Frenzy definitely isn't.
In a chase, you have to force the survivor to make a mistake. Legion doesn't have that many options to do this. Frenzy's good for getting a first hit, but after that, it's all mindgames.
Well, I still think that the buffs to mobility outweigh the nerf to mend times. When you can run and vault faster, it allows you to be much more efficient with your time. Small things add up quickly in a chase.
Using my example with Fast Vaults: The killer is lunging toward you as you approach a window. If you fast vault, you get through the window safely. If you medium vault, you get hit and go down. So if you successfully perform a fast vault, you not only gain the extra time from the fast vault (0.4 seconds), you also gain additional time that the Killer has to spend getting past the window, and making up for the lost distance as they run after you. What would have been a 10 second chase is increased to a 20 or 30 second chase, or possibly even more if the survivor finds another good loop.
So, this tiny fraction of a second extended the chase time from 10 seconds to 20+ seconds. I think the buffs to Feral Frenzy will have a similar effect. Because you can end loops significantly faster, you end up gaining 5-10 seconds due to the shortened vault animation and increased movement speed. You can now get a hit in situations where the survivor would have otherwise gotten another loop out of you, or forced you to go on cooldown.
Which is why I think the buffs to Legion's mobility will buy more time overall than the 3 seconds of mending from Deep Wounds would. Being able to end loops faster makes it less necessary to have a long mending time.
And again, considering that Plague, Ghostface and Myers can all hold their own in the red ranks, I don't think it's absolutely necessary for killers to have powers that can end loops faster. If their power gives them a quick, reliable way to get first hits, that seems to be enough for them to win against high-ranking survivors.
Keep in mind that, according to BHVR's statistics, every killer in the game (Including Legion) gets more than 2 kills on average, even in the red ranks. Even the worst killers in the game can do well in high-ranking competitive play. So I'm always skeptical when people say that X Killer is "useless" or "overkill nerfed" just because they received a tiny change. And in this case, Legion was buffed in many ways, so I'm even more skeptical when people immediately jump to saying "RIP Legion".
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@EverflowingRiver said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/850898#Comment_850898
.2 or .4 isn't that big in the scheme of things. Not compared to the 4 second stun, the 3 second decrease in mend time, or the loss of healing time cause by sloppy butcher. You act like the chases are so close but I've never lost a Chase because of a .2 second mistake.
There are two kinds of DBD players: Players who have lost chases because of a 0.2 second mistake, and players who have lost chases because of a 0.2 second mistake, but think they haven't.
Here are a few simple, everyday examples:
-I'm being chased by the Killer on Blood Lodge, and I'm going for the nearest pallet. I'm navigating through a small maze of debris. As I navigated through the debris, I made a few sub-optimal turns that costed me 0.2 seconds, so instead of getting a pallet stun as the Killer lunges toward me, I go down.
-I'm being chased by the Killer and running towards a window. I don't approach the window from the correct angle, so I do a Medium Vault instead of a Fast Vault as the killer starts to lunge towards me. So it takes me 0.9 seconds to get through the window, instead of 0.5 with the Fast Vault. Thus, instead of getting through the window and creating lots of distance between me and the killer, I go down.
-I'm playing the Hillbilly. I'm chasing a survivor around a loop, and trying to hit them with my chainsaw. I start to charge it up as I round the corner, and the survivor is just a couple meters away from the pallet. But instead of landing a hit with the chainsaw, I get pallet stunned. If I had brought the Spark Plug and Primer Bulb add-ons, I would have hit the survivor before the pallet hit me.
-I'm playing the Legion. I'm in the middle of chaining together multiple hits, and closing in on a distant survivor. They vault through a window, and I follow them. My Feral Frenzy is about to expire as I start to close in, and I lunge just as the duration is about to end. Because it took me 1.1 seconds to get through the window, my lunge falls just short of the survivor's hitbox, and I go on cooldown instead of getting a hit. If it took 0.9 seconds for me to get through the window, I would have hit them.
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@Raven014 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/850758#Comment_850758
Yeah, but even then it's extremely difficult and you'd be better off with another killer if you can do it with Legion. Even I know this, and I'm a red rank Legion main. I only do because I've dedicated so much time to being a Julie main that I'm best with them.
I liked using STBFL with legion, getting all the tokens quickly was why it was useful, but now... now not so much. Maybe if you want to conserve tokens, but if you were wanting hits with no cooldown, you'd just use your frenzy at that point.
Do not underestimate mending time. A survivor will usually start mending as soon as you go for another target, and after that they're free to do gens. It's legion's only way of slowing them down or distracting them, which for Legion, every second matters.
They may be faster, but Legion will always suck in a chase. They can get looped rather easily and .2 seconds really doesn't change much. I'd rather have a shorter cooldown for FF than extra time if they were going to do that.
I don't think they were dwelling on the negatives, but were just pointing them out as not balanced... which I'm inclined to agree. Whether or not they're stronger... I'll have to test myself, but they sound unbalanced, which is what they're pointing out.
Well, again, I never used STBFL, and I know for a fact that there are other viable Legion builds, so I'm not going to comment on that anymore. I feel like there's nothing left to say on that point.
As far as mending times go, I think ultimately, it's much better to hit 2 survivors with FF and apply a 12-second Deep Wounds to both of them, than to hit a single survivor with a 15-second Deep Wounds debuff. Buffing your mobility during FF makes it much easier to get the first hit and to chain multiple hits, and allows you to do it much more quickly than before.
As you said, one of Legion's biggest problems in a chase was that even in FF, they could be looped rather easily. 0.2 seconds doesn't sound like much on paper, but in practice, I think it will often allow you to land hits that you otherwise couldn't. Combine that with the increased pallet vault speed (It takes 0.45 seconds less than it did before) and the increased running speed, and I think that landing hits and chaining hits together will be much more reliable than before.
If you're playing Survivor and you do a Medium vault instead of a Fast vault at a window, that's a difference of only 0.4 seconds, but that's often all it takes for you to get hit. It's why high-rank survivors usually don't go for the window when they're looping around the outside of the Killer Shack; you can't do a fast vault from that angle, and a medium vault is too slow.
If you're playing Hillbilly, there's a reason people bring add-ons like Spark Plug that reduce the time it takes for you to charge your chainsaw, even though it only reduces the charge time by a fraction of a second. A fraction of a second will very often make all the difference between landing a hit and missing a swing when you're in a chase.
When you're not in a chase, every second counts. When you're in a chase, every fraction of a second counts.
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@EverflowingRiver said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/850799#Comment_850799
You keep talking like the very small bump in speed is going to make him end chases sooner. 0.2 seconds means nothing.
Spoken like somebody who's never lost a chase because they did a Medium Vault instead of a Fast Vault. But hey, 0.4 seconds means nothing. How could that possibly be the difference between taking a hit and getting away, when the killer is inches away and about to lunge at you?
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@NullSp3c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/850758#Comment_850758
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/175/UDCXYCLNEJ73.jpg
"(Which doesn't help him get a down unless the survivor was already injured, by the way)"
If you go through all killers like that, then only one shot killers have a lethal power...
But plague still has the potential to kill someone with corrupt purge and she has an error in design that being injured doesn't have downsides. That's NOT how she was intended to be countered, unlike Legion. Legion before had his power lethal for some reason, the same reason that makes them unviable now: progressing the game in his favour. The way that they did that originated exploits and then legion got to this state of being a meme in the community.
Your line of logic isn't even a line. I'm gonna do like that other guy and give you a simple and short answer and we'll end it here.
No, because legion is already too bad and these changes restrict him even more from builds and power.
Have a good day!
Well, if you're going to be that rude to other people just because they disagree with you, then I suppose I'll respond in kind:
You're overreacting to tiny nerfs, you're ignoring all the major buffs because that would contradict your victim complex, and you're jumping to conclusions instead of looking at things rationally. But I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, since you've proven quite incapable of rationality in general.
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@DeanIcity said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/850709#Comment_850709
It's not. My opinion was simplified to save time because I already can tell debating with you would be counter productive for me. Your "perspective" isn't logically sound and baffles me that you could even believe in the things you are saying.
Maybe you are being honest. Genuine with your assessment but I find it very hard to believe.
I think it's more likely that you are someone that doesn't really care much for the character and likes the fact that he has been crippled to this point.
Just to give you "some" insight on my perspective. I would hate to come off as completely "over-reactionairy".
Well, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I am being honest and quite genuine with my assessment. I care deeply for the character, to the point where I spent my own hard-earned money to unlock him.
I have also voiced complaints about Legion's current state multiple times in the past. How several of his add-ons were absolutely useless, and how FF often doesn't prevent you from being looped because the vault speeds were so slow and the speed boost was relatively small.
Then BHVR released this new patch, featuring changes that addressed several of my complaints about the character.
Do I care about the fact that FF doesn't interact with M1 perks anymore? No, because I never used any of those perks in any of my Legion builds.
Do I care that Mending takes slightly less time than it used to? No, because I view it as an insignificant loss compared to what the character gained: Major buffs to several of his add-ons, and major buffs to FF's speed. 3 seconds of mending will not make the difference between victory and defeat 99% of the time, especially if the survivors stay injured after taking the initial hit. But 0.2 seconds of vaulting or an additional 5% movement speed can often mean the difference between landing a hit on a fleeing survivor (Which will often lead to landing additional hits on other survivors), or losing the chase and going on cooldown. I'd rather have buffs that help me put Deep Wounds on as many survivors as possible, than have Deep Wounds require the survivors to waste an additional 3 seconds on Mending.
So I view your "perspective" as illogical, and it baffles me that you only dwell on the negatives, and refuse to acknowledge that the character will now be stronger overall. I think it's likely that you're so attached to the Legion that seeing any kind of nerfs to the character feels like having a knife plunged into your ribcage, even if the devs more than make up for it with buffs to other aspects of the character's kit.
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@NullSp3c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/850645#Comment_850645
That is the perfect scenario in the low ranks. Middle-high ranked survivors know how to simply ignore deep wounds when they need to, know not to heal vs Legion. Most of the maps have enough pallets to you to chase someone until the game ends and they do nothing but dropping them.
The oni doesn't need that much time to stack his power. 1 hit gives him half of his bar (it can happen in the worst scenario at when the 1st gen is popped because he couldn't find anyone AND than can also happen to legion), has no penalty on using his power and can one shot everyone at will. I'm watching monto's stream and he is saying that this killer is better than billy which i agree after watching 15+ games of his.
Legion can make survivors waste a little bit of time but he also needs to hit multiple survivors to do what you're saying. To hit multiple survivors you need to waste your own time going after them and if something goes wrong then goes your power and pressure down the road with it.
Hitting 4 survivors is unrealistic between rank 8 and 1 and even above that you sometimes hit 3 survivors at best. Ofc there are exceptions but i think you get the point.
I don't remember how i got the info that legion's fatigue is 2.7 seconds, but i believe it was on the Q&A about the patch 2.7.0 when they changed legion and they explained why they increased the duration from 3 to 4 seconds that still doesn't make sense.
Anyways, legion needs better numbers to chain hits and his power must be lethal. There are ways to do that and i think that the devs are working on something about legion and this is not a change that there is to stay as a final hit on legion (I THINK) peanits told me roughly 2 weeks ago that they were in early development on some changes but nothing confirmed and that we shouldn't create hopes and stakes.
All other killers have a way that helps them in chase without add-ons by any means. Even ghostface and wraith have, respectively, red stain hiding (that is pretty dope) and a burst of movement speed to cut some loops that would've been otherwise impossible to cut.
So many buffs is 2 meters, what's your point?
Idk about your "buffs". 🤔
And yet red-ranked Legion mains exist, and are quite capable of getting 4Ks. If everyone stays injured, then they leave themselves vulnerable to getting downed in a single hit.
There are plenty of M1 killers whose powers don't allow them to end loops any faster, and yet they are quite capable of killing mid-high ranking survivors. Even if you remove Ghostface because he can sometimes hide his red stain, and remove Wraith because he has a tiny speed boost after uncloaking (Which doesn't help him get a down unless the survivor was already injured, by the way), you still have Plague and Myers, both of whom are also quite capable of winning chases and ending loops against even the best survivors.
Plague's power isn't lethal unless the survivors choose to make it lethal. It doesn't even slow them down like Deep Wounds does. Myers' power doesn't help him at all against a survivor that's already injured, even during EW3. So why does Legion's power need to be lethal? I'm perfectly happy with these changes as they are, and I find it ridiculous that people only dwell on the negatives here.
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@DeanIcity said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/850526#Comment_850526
You are wrong. Please stop. This was a huge nerf. It's ridiculous that anyone could possibly and reasonably think differently.
What a nuanced and thoughtful counter-argument. Definitely not an overreaction, or a product of people jumping to conclusions instead of looking at the changes with a rational perspective.
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@xCarrie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/850526#Comment_850526
They may not benefit from it against survivors who don’t heal but that can go for any killer. The reason it was popular and good on legion was how fast they get stacks. If survivors don’t heal, that’s bad for them, if they do then STBFL will be amazing. You can afford to down the obsession too because you’ll lose 4, but easily get back 3 from one survivor.
Yeah it’s good...which is why they are popular on legion. Sloppy Butcher could be spread in seconds if survivors are close and if they see thanatophobia and heal it’s so much time wasted, and once they heal you can do it again faster than any killer.
As I’ve said now for the third time, I know it isn’t effective, it’s the worst way to play legion but it’s the most annoying way to play and it’s unfun for survivors which ta-da, will cause more DC’s and will show legion is “over performing” so the devs will nerf despite him being really weak. How being upset that a killer is able to just stab and follow me with being able to do nothing but wait is “on me.” That makes no sense. Guess all the people who dealt with infinite mending legion was on them.
It’s not that hard to stare at someone and follow them. If it is? Bloodhound. “Why waste a perk though?” Because trust me if a perk can help people abuse something they’ll use it. Also yeah no.
Again, getting STBFL stacks doesn't matter if you can't actually take advantage of the stacks. If everyone stays injured, then there's no point in having all those stacks, because you only need to get one hit to end a chase.
Again, if you can't adapt to the loss of a handful of M1 perks and replace them with perks like Monitor and Abuse, then the problem is with you, not the game.
There are a lot of things that the Killer can do which you have no control over. If the Killer slugs you, then all you can do is crawl over to a corner and wait to die. If the Killer puts you on your second hook, then all you can do is struggle and hope that your teammates will come save you. If the killer puts you on your last hook, then all you can do is watch while the entity drags your character up into the sky.
If you don't like being put into a state where all you can personally do is wait for the inevitable, then why are you playing Survivor at all? Being forced to wait for something to happen is an unavoidable part of Survivor gameplay.
Again, the wording on Deep Wounds is vague. It says "If you are within the Killer's Terror Radius, the Deep Wounds timer pauses, whether you are in a chase or not". It doesn't say "If you are in a chase, but the Killer has no Terror Radius, the Deep Wounds timer will not be paused".
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@NullSp3c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/850526#Comment_850526
Legion moves at 2.7 ms when fatiguing.
Simply walking ->4.6*14=64.4m
Feral frenzy-> 5.2*10+2.7*4= 62.8 m
So, even with the buff, legion gains more distance by simply walking...
And the oni has a oneshot without penalty and can traverse the map even better than legion. Seems fair.
EDIT: Also, the impact of your hits is negative compared to the time that you take to apply deep wounds. Deep wounds takes 3 seconds less to be "cleansed" and you need roughly the same time in feral frenzy to hit more people. SO it is a nerf and this isn't add-on related.
May I see the source for that data? I looked on Google and looked on the wiki, but didn't find that information anywhere.
The Oni has a one-shot without a penalty, and can traverse the map better than Legion... after he spends the first few minutes looking for survivors and farming blood orbs from injuring them. Before then, he's just a normal M1 killer with all the standard stats, and a power that makes it easier for him to track injured survivors. After he finishes farming and pops Blood Fury for about 60 seconds, the Oni then goes back to being a normal M1 killer and needs to waste time farming blood all over again.
Compare that to the Legion, who can use their power immediately at the start of the game, doesn't need to waste time farming resources instead of chasing survivors or patrolling gens, and only has a 20 second cooldown time between uses of his Frenzy.
If Feral Frenzy only applied Deep Wounds and didn't injure the survivors, you could say that it has a "negative impact". But in addition to needing 12 seconds to mend themselves, the survivors (Unless they have a medkit) will also need to find another survivor, then they both have to waste ~16 seconds of their time to heal one health state. Therefore, getting a single hit with FF will waste, by default, at least 28 seconds of one survivors' time. And since the healer also needs to stop what they're doing to heal their friend, it's more like wasting 44 seconds of one survivor's time.
If you were to hit all 4 survivors with FF, they would each waste 12 seconds Mending, then they would each waste 32 seconds healing each other. If you manage to get 4 chain hits within 44 seconds while using FF (Which certainly isn't impossible in a normal game), then you actually gain time over the survivors. And that's not even considering the time it would take the survivors to group up for healing.
You have to remember that time normally isn't on the killer's side. If the killer never actually starts getting kills, then the survivors will eventually finish the last gen and escape, no matter how many times you injure them and they stop to heal. That's true for all killers, not just Legion. So saying his power has a "negative impact" seems like a moot point when any killers' powers will have a "negative impact" if you never actually get kills with them.
Legion's power makes it easy for him to find survivors, get first hits, and force them to either waste lots of precious time mending and healing instead of doing gens, or leave themselves vulnerable to getting downed. Reducing the mend time by 3 seconds is not going to make him useless, especially not when FF got so many buffs to its speed.
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@EverflowingRiver said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/850537#Comment_850537
All you do is say "it's not a nerf" without providing any reasoning. Also, if the devs say it's a nerf how can you still persist saying otherwise.
Uhh... my reasoning was "Just switch up a couple of perks and you're stronger than before". Just because you say I don't have any reasoning, doesn't make it true. I use BBQ & Chili, Ruin, Monitor and Abuse, and Thanatophobia. I don't need STBFL or Sloppy Butcher, and as far as I'm concerned, this is an overall buff for Legion.
Several of his add-ons were given major buffs (I'm literally sitting on 24 unused Smiley Face Pins, 2 unused The Legion Pins, and 5 unused Defaced Smiley Pins, because they did absolutely nothing for me until now), and FF became a lot faster and a lot harder for survivors to evade. Having a faster vault speed and movement speed will often make all the difference at many different loops, especially when you're trying to chain multiple hits together with FF.
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@Aldofer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/850456#Comment_850456
yo i saw that, sorry but the reasonnig is stupid, why not nerf only the add-on?? it would be enougth and even if some people would have been upset we would have understand beceause mangle pin and... well let's talk about he other big nerfed that just destroy legion what's the reasonning with that @Peanits @Almo
Edit: the change is remove the fact that fenral hit are consider normal attack
That's really not a big nerf, dude. Just switch up a couple of perks and you're stronger than before. It's not like any of the basic attack perks are mandatory for success as Legion. I should know; I play as them, and I never used any M1 perks.
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@EverflowingRiver said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/850324#Comment_850324
So you are comparing hillbilly with his 9.2 mps speed with a 2 second cool down to legion with a 5.2 mps speed and a 4 second cool down? Next you will say that FF is comparable to Freddy popping out at gens. Face it, FF is broken as it is and this update will brake it more because it won't even work with some perks.
Honestly, having done the math, I don't know if you gain distance or not if you use FF to traverse the map, because I can't find any sources on how fast Legion moves during his fatigue animation. It's noticeably faster than the Nurse's movespeed during her fatigue and the Hillbilly's movespeed during his chainsaw cooldown, but I can't find a single source for the actual hard number.
That being said, you're really overreacting if you honestly believe that FF will be useless, just because it doesn't interact with a handful of perks anymore. It's not like you can't use other perks to replace them. Might I suggest Monitor and Abuse? It makes it easier to get first hits on survivors, and it increases the range of your Killer Instinct detection once you get the first hit in FF.
You can score a lot of hits and get a lot of chains now with FF that you previously couldn't, either because your vault speed was too slow or your movement speed was too slow.
@xCarrie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/850169#Comment_850169
I don’t use STBFL often on legion but it could come in handy especially since you can rack them up faster than any killer. Plus with legion being an M1 killer once you get stacks, you can use them to end chases quicker in chase. Lose some? You can easily gain them back.
Yes experienced survivors don’t find the need to heal but if they don’t it puts them in a dangerous spot and easy for you. If you’re up against survivors who don’t heal, thanatophobia will slow them down, if they don’t want the slow down they will heal, when they heal they’re wasting time and if you have nurses as well then it’s easy downs. They managed to heal? Injure them just as fast and they’ll be right where they started.
Yeah I know? Also that’s why I said “moonwalking” 2.0 as now instead of moonwalking you can literally just follow them and there’s nothing they can do and there’s no counters, like old moonwalking legion. Yes the killer can just hit the survivor to make it quicker and it’s not the most effective (like I said in the post). The point was if people want they can abuse this and make it really annoying and boring for the survivors as once you hit them, just wait and there’s nothing they can do but go down.
Also “catch survivors?” You can only injure in FF, I’d say you could cut distance but the same 4 second penalty doesn’t help. And traveling “a lot” faster? It’s a minor speed buff.
Again, compared to most other M1 killers, Legion doesn't benefit that much from the effect of STBFL, because survivors often won't heal against him. It's the same reason you don't see many Plagues running STBFL, even though they usually rely on M1 to get downs. The reduced attack cooldown only helps you if you need to get multiple M1 hits in a very short time frame.
If you're up against survivors who don't heal, Thanatophobia slows them down and they're vulnerable to getting hooked if you find them. If you're up against survivors who do heal, then they waste a lot of time healing instead of doing gens, buying more time for you to chain hits with FF, or just get hooks. Either way, you win.
If the killer is following you and waiting for you to drop dead instead of just hitting you and getting it over with, then they're throwing the game. If you're upset by the fact that the killer is dicking around and wasting time with you instead of putting you on the hook, then that's on you.
And again, Beast of Prey only works when you're in a chase. The moment you break the chase, you lose the benefit of BoP. And last time I checked, Deep Wounds won't tick down if you're in a chase, even if the Killer has no Terror Radius.
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@BunnyTheHutt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/850407#Comment_850407
I care about all of it because none of it is necessary. No one asked or wanted Legion Nerfs, so I can't comprehend why they nerfed him so damn hard.
Probably because he wasn't nerfed.
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@EverflowingRiver said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/850311#Comment_850311
Why would I use the ability to travel when you spend the next 4 seconds disabled. So I travel through the corn and see a survivor, then my time runs out and I'm useless for 4 seconds. But I got to see him sooner by your logic. And if I keep them injured, Chase's are shorter and they spend more time on the hook, which helps with gen speed. That and Thana slows it down when they are injured.
Have you ever used Hillbilly's chainsaw to traverse the map? Being stunned and slowed for a few seconds after you stop running doesn't mean it would be faster to just run all the way across the map at 115% speed.
And keeping survivors injured is a luxury, not a given. Your goal is not to injure everyone, your goal is to get hooks. And again, every second they spend healing is one less second they spend on the generators. And healing tends to waste a lot of the survivors' time, especially if they don't have a medkit.