Monlyth
Monlyth
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- Monlyth
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Asking for a developer update during the holiday season seems a bit insensitive. Developers should be able to enjoy the holidays in peace, just like everyone else.
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Yeah, if they're taking away the speed penalty/form swap from Treatment Mode, that alone will be a big help for him. He'd no longer have to choose between stalling objective completion and hitting survivors, and it wouldn't be quite so awkward to use Shock Therapy in a chase.
I can't tell you how many times I've shocked a survivor, only for the debuff to wear off before I can close the distance and get a hit, because I have to go through the whole process of switching to Treatment, casting Shock Therapy, then switching back to Punishment before I can actually land a hit. The movespeed slow really makes things difficult in a chase.
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@DwarvenTavern said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/902774#Comment_902774
I get the first part, but the second part I don't. Well, I suppose there is a chance you'll run into survivors like that, but mostly it's just positive reactions or toxic reactions.
Well, have you seen what it's like when red-ranked survivors play against a brand-new Killer? The killer will be lucky to land even a single blow on them.
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One-sided slaughters aren't very thrilling, because if there's no hope of victory, why would you even play?
One-sided games pitting veteran survivors against noob killers aren't very thrilling either, because the survivors never actually feel like they're in danger.
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@Hex_BoopTheSnoot said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/893176#Comment_893176
That's this Community's logic. Apparentally any change is a huge nerf and Devs are stupid and hate us.
Accurate. I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with the Doctor. His power is fun to use in some ways, but I think it could be a lot better to play as and against.
Currently, Madness 1 and Madness 2 feel like they hardly have any real effect on survivors without add-ons, apart from screaming. The hallucinations obviously don't fool anyone, and the random skillchecks become less and less useful as you play against more experienced survivors. But the random skillchecks are also really annoying when I play against the Doctor. So it's competitively weak and really annoying to play against; to me, as a Doctor main, that sounds like a mechanic which should be removed.
I'm hoping they make Madness 2 more threatening, and make Treatment mode a little more interesting/less awkward to use.
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Survivor queues vary a lot based on rank. The higher the ranks get, the longer the survivor queues get, because it's harder to rank up as Killer than as Survivor.
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@Haku said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/889985#Comment_889985
You definitely sound like a rank 20. Learn the game and then come back here and try to tell a better fairy tale. This one was pretty bad. You can't find the hatch and hide all game. The hatch itself spawns at the end of the game. I bet you don't even know the real conditions for the hatch to spawn...This is the kind of killers that make threads here asking to nerf things while the problem is them being not really good at the game /trying to be nice here with my words/
You realize that even some of the best killer mains in the world often lose to keys, right? If it was just a L2P issue, such players would have no reason to complain about keys.
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@UlvenDagoth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/889554#Comment_889554
You obviously didn't get the point I was trying to make. That's not all me. It's not just me trying to brainstorm ideas. There are alot of us. I'm upset for all of us. So, I suppose you are allowed to just view it through your eyes and your view, but I hate to tell you that you aren't the sole voice that decides things any more than me. They did take some of the very very general suggestions you pointed out sure, but they also tacked on so many nerfs it made it meaningless. Also the "Outrage" is coming from you basically accusing me of being arrogant and not having a spine to accept change. You tossing all this at me when you know nothing about me.
It was exactly this that caused my "Outrage"
"You seem to have this notion that the devs are obligated to act upon your feedback, and incorporate your ideas into their reworks. Trust me when I say: The sooner you let go of this notion, the better it will be for your mental health. When you don't get fussy just because the devs didn't do exactly what you wanted, you'll often be pleasantly surprised by what the devs managed to come up with.
Good game design is nowhere near as easy as it seems. It takes a lot of brainstorming, a lot of designing, a lot of iteration, and a lot of trial and error to create a well-designed game, mechanic, or character. There are a multitude of factors to consider before you implement any given mechanic or make any given change, many of which are not obvious to the player who actually uses and interacts with the mechanic. And after you're done brainstorming, you usually need to test again and again. Assess your changes and decide whether or not they're accomplishing what they're meant to accomplish, and if they make the game more fun to play. And you'll often have to go back to the drawing board many times before you get something that really works. When you don't do that and try to rush the process, you end up with messy games like Mass Effect Andromeda, and Anthem."
You accused me of wanting things exactly my way, and that I got fussy, like some little child, when I didn't get it. You even take the time to insult my intelligence. You do not know me, you do not know what i've been through in my 30+ years of life, so I would ask you to kindly not make judgments about me.
Let's agree to disagree again. Let's just drop this once and for all between me and you. It's going no where and frankly you are a chore to talk to.
And you test my patience as well. I have been as cordial, rational and constructive as I can, but you insist on getting your panties in a bunch because the devs didn't do exactly what you wanted, and it wasn't just a straight-up buff to every single aspect of the character.
I call it like I see it: you're making a fuss. You're causing a needless commotion over a sidegrade to Legion's power, saying that he's now "gutted" because he can't use two easily-replaced perks anymore, and Mending takes slightly less time than before, even though they gave Legion a long list of buffs, including several that Legion mains had been directly asking for.
If you wanna agree to disagree, so be it.
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@UlvenDagoth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/889297#Comment_889297
Also I think the best way to convince you is to let you look at these. Maybe when I get home from work i'll want to debate this "More calmly" but for now, just look at these.
Well, I can't say that most of those ideas sound like they'd be a once-and-for-all fix for Legion's issues. Some of your proposed changes (Particularly many of the buffs to Deep Wounds and the rewards for hitting a Deep Wounded survivor) would give Legion the same problem they had before: Not being fun to play against. Others change their playstyle so drastically as to be unrecognizable. Other proposed changes actually appeared in the patch notes, but you seem to have overlooked them.
You've proposed all these different changes to DW, and in that thread, you complained about the fact that Survivors have no real pressure to mend and can just do gens so long as they stay in your terror radius. One of your first proposed changes is making it so the Deep Wounds timer ticks down if you do any actions other than mending, even while near the killer, so why are you complaining about it when DW now does exactly that?
The proposed changes I actually like (And which aren't already implemented) are increasing your movespeed as you chain more hits together, and reducing the punishment for missing a swing.
So they directly took your advice in several places. They buffed the pin add-ons, buffed FF's movespeed and vault speed, buffed the duration add-ons, and made Deep Wounds more urgent and threatening. So why are you complaining so vehemently, and claiming that the devs never listen to your feedback?
I would think that this thread would have a more positive or neutral tone. "I like X changes, I don't like Y changes, and I suggest Z changes for the next round of tweaks". Is that really so hard? Why go with outrage instead of a rational, constructive discussion?
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@Bazzajack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/889268#Comment_889268
What can you do to counter a mori?
Don't get downed after being hooked. Quite difficult to accomplish on a consistent basis.
Just like how "Don't let them do gens" or "Kill the key holder and don't let anyone else get near the dropped key" is not something you can feasibly do a lot of the time.
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@CashelP14 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/889052#Comment_889052
Apologies but before you edited it that's how it sounded.
They need to be more vocal with their community on why certain things are done to stop threads like this. They are causing their own community to argue with itself because they won't give some explanations on why they are doing certain things.
On a side note you need to chill for a minute. Ino your not happy with the changes but trust me getting angry on the forums won't help in anyway. We've all been there with this game but it's better to step back and take a break rather than argue with other community members.
Honestly though, compared to most big developers, BHVR's communication has been consistently good. The simple fact that they reply to forum threads almost every day puts them miles ahead of most of their competition.
That being said, developers always have to be careful not to spend too much time talking to their community about their plans and updates, because talking about doing something is not the same as doing it. If they took the time to explain every little change in this update, that alone could take several hours out of many of the devs' work days, and cause a significant delay for their development. Remember, the devs all have a life outside of work, so they have a limited amount of time each day to work on projects, discuss things with their coworkers, and reply to the community's posts.
@UlvenDagoth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/889257#Comment_889257
We agreed to disagree like 3 pages ago. Go away if all you are gonna do is continue to try and call me a wuss.
If you choose to continue talking with me, I have the right to continue talking with you. If you dismiss all of my arguments as mere insults, that's your prerogative, but again, don't be surprised when the devs aren't swayed by simple outrage. I think you'd be a lot more convincing if you took the time to chill out and sort out all of your thoughts on this matter.
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@Bazzajack said:
I think their fine the way they are, as it stands its much harder to pull off a key escape than a Mori
Even if that were true, why does that matter? The principle is the same: there's little you can do to counter it.
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@UlvenDagoth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/889111#Comment_889111
Are you a game designer? No. Should I expect a company to listen to the feedback of most of there community? Yes. I don't expect them to listen to ME but when most of the community is at arms cause Legion, who was widely considered the worst Killer, got nerfed even further... Don't you think they should listen?
Just cause I shouldn't get "Fussy" or anything like that doesn't stop the human reaction of getting upset over something that makes no sense to me and is seen as widely unneeded. Maybe if they explained anything it would be better. Also WHY EVEN HAVE THESE FORUMS IF NOT TO LISTEN TO FEEDBACK?! The community has spend a long time brain storming Ideas too, I have two threads in Feedback that show that, let alone the billions of other threads. Good Job dismissing EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM! You act like game designers are on some lofty cloud that they can't be touched my the poor, dirty masses that play there game.
IF BHVR has been "Brainstorming for a long time' They are really not showing it with releasing Nemesis and changing some perks, then going "Oh ######### that broke Legion." and then nerfing them into the ground.
This is a messy game just like the ones you mentioned. Basement bug is the newest example of that and so are the myriad of other bugs and problem on PC alone, not even counting Console.
Have you looked at the add-on changes? Have you? The only changes even worth noting are the pins getting changes and the Filthy Blade getting nerfed. The other changes are not even a second of difference. I should be HAPPY that i get .2 M/S while losing a million perks I could use? I should be happy that my power does even less now? Oh goody, I can vault this window .2 seconds faster! That makes up for the fact I LITERALLY GET PUNISHED FOR USING MY POWER!
You are in denial if you think that this whole community pointing out the issues with this nerf and Legion as a whole is wrong. "Good at identifying problems and bad at solving them?" Cool, then your opinion is worthless too! This change to Deep Wound is NOT good game design in the slightest, and I honestly hope you are joking somehow. BHVR has done many moves that make players wonder if they even play there own game and then you come singing there praises like they are Lords of game design for an obviously terrible change? They should have just removed Deep wounds from Legion and replaced it, not gutted an already weak Killer.
Oh and in case you haven't figured it out yet. I AM JUST AS ENTITLED TO GIVE FEED BACK AS YOU! This is my feedback. This change made me lose faith in BHVR as a company, and the Devs in it as a whole. Literally nothing you can say in your condescending way will ever change my mind.
Well, that's the thing. A large portion of the community considers this to be a buff, not a nerf. And a large portion of the community didn't consider Legion to be the worst killer. A lot of people consider Leatherface, Clown and/or Wraith to be worse. You seem to be making the classic mistake of believing that most people think the same way you do.
They are listening to feedback. Feedback clearly factors heavily into many of their decisions, like the decision to change how Deep Wounds interacts with the Terror Radius, or the decision to reduce the difficulty of the Tome challenges. But, again, you seem to have this notion that because they didn't do exactly what you wanted them to do, it was a bad change.
Feedback is always valuable, but if you expect them to always act upon your feedback and give you the exact changes you wanted, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. And if you expect them to act upon your feedback when you spew hyperbole and make an "I quit" post every time things don't go just the way you wanted them to, don't be surprised when the developers get reluctant to take you seriously.
When you view even the slightest nerf as "Getting gutted/nerfed to the ground", even when they give the character several buffs in many other areas, you have nobody to blame but yourself if you get upset. And it tells the developers that nothing will satisfy you, short of breaking the game to favor you exclusively. Be honest, would you have ever been happy with anything but buffs? Would you be happy with buffs if they weren't the exact buffs you wanted? It certainly doesn't seem that way.
And do you really know what you're asking for when you say that they need to remove Deep Wounds entirely, and create a whole new mechanic exclusive to Legion? As I said before, reworks take a long time. Months, at the bare minimum. The Freddy rework took almost two years. If you want changes to happen immediately, then you'll have to be satisfied with small tweaks.
Do you know what it looks like when the developers listen to player feedback more than their own intuition and knowledge? It looks like the current mobile gaming market. Everyone just does whatever will get them the highest rating on the app store, and whatever gets them the highest survey scores. Nobody tries anything new, nobody cares about making a quality product, everyone copies everyone else, every game plays the same way, and great games essentially don't exist. Finding even a halfway decent title on the app store (Which isn't just a port of an old game, mind you) is like finding a needle in a haystack.
But at any rate, you're really starting to take an aggressive tone again, so I'm not going to indulge your emotional outbursts any longer. My advice still stands: The sooner you accept that nerfs and buffs come and go, and you're not always going to get the exact changes you want, the better off you'll be mentally. Grow some backbone. Embrace change.
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@UlvenDagoth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/889031#Comment_889031
I'mma take it you didn't read my reply to why I main'ed Legion? Also BHVR Devs have said not to use the stats to draw Conclusions, making your argument here flawed. Also anything 51% to 74% is still 2 kills,. which at high ranks is a Black pip or worse.
Of course I read your reply on why you mained Legion. I quoted it.
You seem to have this notion that the devs are obligated to act upon your feedback, and incorporate your ideas into their reworks. Trust me when I say: The sooner you let go of this notion, the better it will be for your mental health. When you don't get fussy just because the devs didn't do exactly what you wanted, you'll often be pleasantly surprised by what the devs managed to come up with.
Good game design is nowhere near as easy as it seems. It takes a lot of brainstorming, a lot of designing, a lot of iteration, and a lot of trial and error to create a well-designed game, mechanic, or character. There are a multitude of factors to consider before you implement any given mechanic or make any given change, many of which are not obvious to the player who actually uses and interacts with the mechanic. And after you're done brainstorming, you usually need to test again and again. Assess your changes and decide whether or not they're accomplishing what they're meant to accomplish, and if they make the game more fun to play. And you'll often have to go back to the drawing board many times before you get something that really works. When you don't do that and try to rush the process, you end up with messy games like Mass Effect Andromeda, and Anthem.
If I had to bet, I'd say that BHVR has been spending a long time brainstorming ideas on how best to fix Legion's issues, but they've had other tasks to do that were just as important (Like designing new characters, making balance changes and reworking other characters, i.e. The Doctor), and they simply haven't come up with an adequate solution yet. Reworks take a long time. In the meantime, it seems they've decided to help him out by buffing his add-ons and buffing FF, while changing the way his power interacts with certain perks.
Why did they do the last change? I couldn't tell you the exact reason. Maybe they wanted to change it for the sake of consistency (Because Shred and chainsaws and hatchets and such don't count as a Basic Attack either), maybe they wanted to remove Sloppy Butcher in order to make way for his new Button add-ons. Either way, instead of getting upset, I choose to welcome the changes and continue giving feedback on what I like and don't like about him, so that things can continue to get better for Legion.
I've heard this consistently from a lot of game designers (Specifically, Mark Rosewater, the lead designer for Magic: The Gathering): "Your audience is good at identifying problems, and bad at solving them". It's rare for your audience to see the bigger picture and understand all of the factors that need to be considered when designing something. They can tell you when something is wrong, but they often have trouble figuring out how to make it right. Lots of players might love one suggested change, but lots of others (The silent majority) would hate it. Always be careful before you implement fan-suggested changes.
For an example of good game design, I consider the change to Deep Wounds (Making it so it doesn't interact with the Terror Radius anymore, and ticks down anytime you're not sprinting or Mending) to be a well-thought-out change, because it addresses one of the common complaints about the mechanic (That it can be exploited by abilities and perks that remove the Terror Radius) without significantly reducing or increasing its overall power, or changing what the mechanic is intended to do. This change allows the developers to implement more mechanics that remove the Terror Radius (Which they clearly wanted to do with this patch), without worrying that they'll break the game with Deep Wounds.
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888950#Comment_888950
i'm not criticize you, i'm just stating my concern.
at the end of the day, we want to see all killers in high ranks, right? so buffing legion is needed, not nerfing him to a state where legion mains will also choose to dump their main. same goes for nurse though (I dumped her after the nerf because her power is not fun at all, although i'm not a nurse main)
Yes, all killers should be present in high ranks, but I don't think we should accomplish that by bringing every killer up to Spirit's level. I think that would have the side effect of making all the survivors quit.
To be honest, I'm a little hesitant to say we should buff killers at all, mostly because Killers are all doing fairly well, according to BHVR's stats. If all Killers already have a kill rate of 60% or more in the red ranks, I'd hesitate to say we should buff them. High-ranking killers complain a lot about survivors, yet they still manage to do well against even the best of them?
So, it's possible that the issue lies with the emblem system (Which would skew the statistics to make killers look good, since it's harder to rank up as a Killer than a Survivor), or it's possible that the issue lies somewhere else. Either way, I'm not sure that buffing all the killers is the best idea when we don't know all the facts. Why killers complain a lot about survivors at red ranks, yet killers are dominating the red ranks according to statistics.
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@Endstille said:
What? Stbfl with 8 tokens makes the usage of ff utterly obsolete and legion able to down people very fast and end chases so quickly compared to without it, injured survivors grouping up is slugalore with that.
But the survivors will all be injured long before you get 8 tokens, and it doesn't make a difference in a chase if the survivor is already injured when the chase starts. I can think of plenty of other good uses for that perk slot. If you're looking to punish injured survivors grouping up, you could always use Nurse's Calling for the same effect without needing to farm tokens or avoid the obsession.
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@UlvenDagoth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888944#Comment_888944
Changes do not equal gutting of a class. I bet at first you were pretty pissy about the changes, no matter what you say. You saying you didn't use those perks just kinda underlines it. You kinda just tossed out meta things and admitted you don't understand the changes. Cause the Movement speed buff wasn't near the only thing in it. I don't mean this rudely, but it's right there. This isn't an "Overall improvement to the character." at all and I am looking at the bigger picture, which is the Devs tossing Legion into a wood chipper, and you will never convince me otherwise.
No, I really wasn't pissy about the Warlock changes. From the first moment they revealed the new, reworked playstyle for Demonology, I was excited to explore it. Were there some things I missed about the old playstyle? Yes. Did I complain about the changes? No, not once.
Also, why are you saying that I don't understand the changes or the meta? My Legion build is full of meta perks. I could drop Thanatophobia for another meta perk if need be, and it wouldn't have to be Sloppy Butcher or STBFL.
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888908#Comment_888908
So.. if people choose to dump legion and play better killers like spirit, so many people on the forum will say that there is no variety in red rank
Hey man, I'm just trying to suggest productive solutions here. If a killer main doesn't enjoy playing Legion anymore, there are plenty of other options with different playstyles. There are low-tier options like Doctor, mid-tier options like Myers, and high-tier options like Spirit. I'm not going to judge Legion mains if they decide to main Spirit now. I'd just say to the devs that Spirit needs more work (Assuming these upcoming nerfs aren't enough).
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@UlvenDagoth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888908#Comment_888908
Because I enjoyed running around and slashing all the survivors. Cause I could connect with the Killer in a way cause of there lore. I grew up in a town alot like the one in the lore, I could see others going down that path. This path the Devs are taking with Legion just shows me how pointless it is to try and ask them anything or talk to them about anything. They don't care, so why should I? I left this game after 2016-2017 era and Legion got me back. I have a connection with this Killer and now they have been gutted. I used to feel like I could do something with them, but now... with all these nerfs and these "Buffs" that do nothing to make up for it.... there's no point. I'm glad you can still enjoy them, and I give you the blessing of the Legion on your games... but at this point, that's like calling a curse down on you more than anything. I'll give you that the new speed and all feels nice... but it in no way makes up for the negatives.
Well, speaking as somebody who's seen nerfs and buffs come and go many times over the years (I was a Demonology Warlock main in WoW; I absolutely loved the fantasy, but my chosen specialization was usually the weakest, and I was often pigeonholed into playing specs I disliked. When buffs finally came for Demonology, I was happy and did quite well in my guild. I loved being the resident Warlock expert. Then they reworked Demonology. Yet... I was okay with it. It was a totally different playstyle, yet it still had everything I loved about Warlocks: summoning demons, applying debuffs, slowly whittling away your opponent's health to nothing. And I was still the resident Warlock for many months until the guild broke up), I've grown to tolerate change. Even when it's not perfect, and not exactly what I wanted. I look at the bigger picture, and I don't get fussy if the changes were an overall improvement to the character.
Also, side note: I never used Sloppy Butcher or other M1 perks on Legion. My pre-patch build was BBQ & Chili, Ruin, Monitor and Abuse, and Thana. So this patch changed almost nothing about Legion for me personally, except the speed buffs.
@Endstille said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888913#Comment_888913
To get stacks on perks such as stbfl? Just to explain this is 3 tokens with a single survivor, you would get those tokens very fast on legion. Having 6/8 tokens on stbfl makes him way more lethal than anything you get right now in return.
I don't really understand this argument, because survivors will usually stay injured against Legion, making STBFL's effect redundant.
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@Endstille said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888584#Comment_888584
Yeah uh so what you gonna do when there is nobody highlighting? Before you could at least apply it via a 2nd hit and have a choice, give the survivor another buff and extend the chase even longer or get out of ff. They removed that choice if i am not mistaken for some rare occasion that good survivors do group up and are unable to delta split. I don't see the buff ?
Why would you ever hit a survivor twice just to apply the Blindness effect? You're giving them a free speed boost and extending the chase much longer than you have to, while still losing the Frenzy and suffering the 4 second cooldown. I can't think of a single scenario where it's worth it. Hence why I had 20+ unused Smiley Face Pins in my inventory.
If the survivors spread out enough that KI doesn't highlight anyone else, then you say "Oh well, at least I know there aren't any other survivors around here", end the Frenzy, and continue the chase normally. Not every add-on is useful in every situation. Just ask Demogorgon or Myers. It's still better than an add-on that literally encourages you to make a misplay.
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@UlvenDagoth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888883#Comment_888883
Then we will have to agree to disagree. I mained Legion since they came out. I've seen them get broken again and again. This is just another stomp to the corpse of Legion strung up on my porch like a warning from the Mob. I'll never agree with you that they are anywhere close to better.
Well, that just begs the question: Why do you main them? If you don't like their playstyle and don't feel like you're having an impact, why not play a different killer? There are plenty of other killers with more lethality and different playstyles.
But I will also have to agree to disagree, because I view the reduced mend times and the changes to perks as an insignificant loss, compared to the many buffs Legion received for Frenzy, and the fact that Button add-ons are finally useful. I have more than 20 unused Smiley Face pins in my inventory right now, just waiting for me to use them and mess with the survivors.
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@Vetrathene said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888830#Comment_888830
Why would the wraith be trying to hit a different survivor?
For the sake of comparison, because Wraith is another Killer that's good at getting first hits, and bad at getting second hits. If you want to get as many first hits as possible in a short time frame, you'd pick Legion over Wraith.
And since you were saying that there's no net gain, let's do some math, with a good scenario (4 hits), and a mediocre scenario (2 hits). With 4 hits, the survivors need to all waste 12 seconds mending, and each waste at least 32 seconds healing (Since two people need to both waste 16 seconds in order to perform a single heal). In total, the survivors each wasted 44 seconds mending and healing. So, if you manage to get 4 hits within 40 seconds or less (Which is possible to do in a normal match), then it's a net gain for you. And, of course, there's the added benefit of knowing where all of the survivors are, applying Thana stacks to all of them, and being able to chase down the last guy once the 4 second cooldown is over.
Now, with 2 hits, we can divide the survivors' numbers by 2. So collectively, the survivors waste about 6 seconds mending, and waste 16 seconds healing. Collectively, they'd each waste 22 seconds on mending and healing. So, if you get 2 hits within 18 seconds (Which is, again, possible in a normal match), then it's a net gain for you.
Does that make sense?
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@Vetrathene said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888793#Comment_888793
First hits, not last hits. The detection tool is average to lack luster dependent on the size of the map. And it barely wasted time in the first place, now it wastes even less. Especially without being able to apply Sloppy butcher
Well, compare Legion to Wraith. In the time it takes Wraith to decloak, get a first hit, cloak again, find another survivor and get another hit on them, the first survivor could have already finished healing. That isn't the case for Legion. In the time it takes you to get two hits on two survivors, the first survivor will be close to finishing the process of Mending, and won't have started healing yet.
Also, there isn't really a shortage of high-tier perks that Legion can do well with. So I don't think the loss of Sloppy Butcher would be enough to kill them (Especially considering they can now apply a similar effect with an add-on). Spirit Fury-Enduring, Monitor and Abuse, Corrupt Intervention, Ruin, BBQ & Chili, etc.. I think there are still plenty of good options for Legion builds.
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@UlvenDagoth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888786#Comment_888786
cause they had nothing else going for them at all. They had the only thing taken from them.
What do you mean? They still apply Deep Wounds to waste the survivors' time, they still have a powerful detection tool, and they're still good at getting first hits. What is this "Only thing they had going for them"?
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@Vetrathene said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888737#Comment_888737
Performed. Its past tense now. And the alternative you speak of is a plague with no more power, reduced to an M1 killer. But thats fun for
survivorseveryone right?I'd honestly be surprised if these changes were enough to make Legion drop below Clown in terms of kill-rate. If they are, then I suppose I'll eat my words, but I don't see how a 3-second change to mend times (And making it so he doesn't interact with a handful of perks) would be enough to make Legion worse than a Killer whose only power is to slow down survivors' movespeed slightly. Especially when they're also buffing several other aspects of his kit.
Also, why do people like playing Myers so much if being an M1 Killer with a NOED effect is boring?
@Kabu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888718#Comment_888718
The secondary effect is negligible....
Well, sure, it's not going to cripple the survivor for the rest of the game, but it buys you time (About 12 seconds), and time is a precious commodity for Killers. To put this in perspective, it only takes 16 seconds to heal by default, yet experienced survivors will often choose to stay injured for long periods of time, deciding that doing gens is more important than taking 16 seconds to heal up. And in many cases, that's the correct play. Every second counts.
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@Vetrathene said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888673#Comment_888673
Except clown can end a loop faster then average at least. Legion's power can get a hit...and then wait 4 seconds while they get away and possible duck around a corner and loose them because you can't see scratch marks or blood.
Eh, against experienced survivors, Clown should consider himself lucky if his power has any significant impact on a chase at all. He's actually the weakest killer in the red ranks; even Legion performs better than him in terms of kill-rate.
@UlvenDagoth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888718#Comment_888718
Then why does no one cleanse against Plague?
Mostly because it's better than the alternative: Giving Plague a spammy, hard-to-avoid version of Huntress' hatchets, without the audible warning from the lullaby. It's really easy for a good Plague to snowball if someone cleanses.
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@Kabu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888673#Comment_888673
No, they are the same thing. You're always injured when under the effect of borrowed time. It's the middle ground between injured and being downed.
Well, let me put it to you this way:
If you just press m1 and hit a healthy survivor once, that survivor is now injured.
If you use FF and hit a healthy survivor once, that survivor is now injured and also has Deep Wounds.
If you press M1 on an injured survivor without Borrowed Time, they go down.
If you press M1 on an injured survivor with Borrowed Time, they get Deep Wounds instead of going down.
So, if you're hitting a healthy survivor, using FF is better than just pressing M1, because FF has a secondary effect, in addition to injuring the survivor. And if the survivor just stays injured so you can't injure them again with FF, then they're essentially giving you a free NOED; even for a killer with no power, that's strong.
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@UlvenDagoth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888584#Comment_888584
I was just talking. Sorry Text is a mess at context.
Well, if you didn't intend to offend me, then I apologize for insulting you. I try to be respectful to people, even when I disagree with them.
@Kabu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888585#Comment_888585
It's a sidegrade. Survivors can still loop Legion after being buffed from a frenzy attack. It only helps with preventing survivors from doing interactions when their DW bar is low. They're free to do gens, run around, or whatever until then.
Get this, deep wound and borrowed time are the same effect. Only difference is in how it's applied right? Borrowed time is considered to be a powerful survivor perk. So, why does a killer apply a buff to who they should be trying to kill? Might as well play survivor rather than playing as Legion.
All you get from frenzy is information which is only marginally useful. Legion can't even stall anymore.
Before you argue that their faster now. Great, you can catch up to the survivor. Now what do you do? Eat a 4 second stun while the survivor runs away.
The main difference between Borrowed Time and Feral Frenzy is that Borrowed time prevents you from going down a health state, while Feral Frenzy applies the Deep Wounds debuff in additon to injuring the survivor, thus forcing them to waste time mending, in addition to healing, when they were previously healthy.
Also, when playing Legion, I often find that the increased vault speed allows me to land first hits that I otherwise couldn't. So I don't think he's useless, or even the worst killer. I think that title belongs to Clown, because at least Legion's power lets him bypass windows and pallets, slow down objective completion, detect survivors instead of just relying on guesswork, and chase them down faster than the normal 115% movespeed. The only thing Clown has is a mediocre tool to shorten loops slightly.
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@Vetrathene said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888584#Comment_888584
Buttons should do it on first hit though to make sure they actually do something though.
Well, several of Demogorgon's add-ons don't do anything if you don't make use of his portals (Or if you don't get a chance, because you spend the whole match chasing people). Some of Myers' add-ons don't do anything if you don't stay in EW1 long enough to hit someone. Most of Doctor's add-ons don't do anything at all if you never use Treatment mode or Shock Therapy. Several of Trapper's add-ons don't do anything if the survivors don't step in any traps. Should they all be changed?
Add-ons are meant to change up your playstyle. Buttons encourage you to go for chain hits with FF. So let them.
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@Endstille said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888537#Comment_888537
You know even tho i dislike otz, he actually did what I imagined legion is good for now. He can run like a dog at the fence chasing from one side to the other and never be a threat. Such fun, such wow utterly useless killer.
How are the button addons useful? They only work if people are grouping up together, you know something good survivors do not do especially against legion. Please explain to me how they are useful.
Just because the survivors try not to group up, doesn't mean it's never going to happen. There are only so many scenarios where all of your teammates can be spread out enough that Legion can't chain any hits together.
Plus, before these changes, the buttons were completely useless, no matter how the survivors played. They forced you to do something that you should never do as Legion.
@UlvenDagoth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888569#Comment_888569
You are the one bringing up the fact I was banned in another thread as proof I shouldn't be listened too. I don't turn them away if they disagree, I turn them away when all they do is insult me.
You are the one who started an argument. You chose to escalate it and antagonize me every time I replied to you. I simply reciprocated your behavior after I started to get fed up with it.
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@UlvenDagoth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888542#Comment_888542
More insults from you huh? Go away.
If you're going to turn away everyone who disagrees with you on anything, don't be surprised when you get kicked out from places.
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I really see this as an overreaction, and I say that as somebody who bought Legion and got him to level 50. If anything, this made me more excited to play with him. I like the increased vault speeds, and I love that the button add-ons are finally useful.
If he needs more changes, then he'll get them down the line. If you're gonna be this dramatic over any changes that aren't precisely what you wanted, then you're the reason why community managers get tired of their jobs.
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@UlvenDagoth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888415#Comment_888415
I don't have anything else to say to you. You don't see it, and it's plain. "I'll just run allll the way over here... 12 seconds of mend after working on this gen for a while.... and back on the gen."
Yeah... balanced. Useful... It's totally not a free health state like literally everyone else sees it as, and certainly not making Legion's power even more of a punishment to use.
You're incapable of seeing the bigger picture. I'm a killer main, and I support this change. If they hadn't made this change, these forums would be swarming with survivors complaining about Legion right now, and condemning BHVR's lack of foresight with their new perks. And the playercount would likely reflect that, too.
Time is not on your side as Killer. Legion's strength lies in his ability to slow objective completion and get first hits easily. For a Legion main, I'm surprised you don't understand that.
@StarMoral said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888415#Comment_888415
Then how is it any different from injury? The timer doesn't go down when either:
In killer's TR, Running, and/or Mending.
Meaning there are little instances when the meter is actually ticking down. With the new mending times, you actually spend LESS time mending.
The map either has to be huge or the Legion has to run TR nullifying perks to even have the meter tick down, that is if the survivor(s) not running or mending outside of your 32 meter terror radius. And mind you, Sloppy no longer applies to frenzy huts, so heal times are still quick.
Deep Wounds doesn't interact with the Killer's terror radius at all anymore. Even if the Killer is standing right in your face with a Terror Radius that spans the entire map, the timer will tick down if you're not sprinting or mending.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Well personally, I think keys are generally balanced. You don't see them all the time, and if you're a good enough killer, you can 4K regardless of the key's existence. I wouldn't make such a big deal out of survivors getting lucky 1 or 2 games, out of the 10s or hundred you could get in a single day (depends how much you play). Sure, it will give the survivors (or a survivor) a free escape, but seriously, you can't win all the time. And really, if keys are gonna get removed, I strongly believe that other things (namely BS instadown addons and such) should be looked at as well, at the same time.
Keys have no counterplay. There is nothing you can really do to prevent losing the match to one. Even some of the best killer mains in the world frequently lose to keys.
And why does there need to be any strings attached? It doesn't matter whether we remove other broken things like Moris at the same; the game would be better off without keys. End of story.
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@UlvenDagoth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888368#Comment_888368
While destroying a Killer that people enjoyed using and then, on top of all that, keeping the nerfs they had planned for Legion. Deep Wound is a flawed and broken mechanic and Legion has been through hell because of it. Remove Deep Wounds from Legion and then i might even agree with you. Till then, I refuse. Oh, and also, you didn't answer the whole "I can run and not bleed to dead." part.
Deep Wounds was a flawed and broken mechanic. Now it's not. It serves its intended purpose of wasting the survivors' time. If you're sprinting all game so your deep wounds timer doesn't tick down, then you're not doing anything productive. You can't do gens, heal, unhook, open exit gates, or search chests until you've finished mending.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Solutions?
- See a survivor in the lobby, holding a key? Bring a mori, get rid of them ASAP.
- Tunnel that survivor (dickish move, but it works).
- Dodge the lobby.
The thing about killing the key-holder is that it doesn't remove the key from the game. Another survivor can go back and pick it up. Which has happened to me more than once.
And I don't think dodging the lobby is a great solution, for reasons that should be obvious.
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@UlvenDagoth said:
If you honestly think that having a Deep Wound that should make you bleed out, not bleed as you sprint... I have no words for you. You have all the time in the world to mend, it's 12 seconds and I think you can even stop half way and pick it up later (I don't remember atm) and it doesn't even go down when you sprint now, which most survivors do anyway.
It's clear that BHVR doesn't want Deep Wounds to actually kill you. It's meant to waste the survivor's time and nothing more. Survivors hated the old design of Deep Wounds (i.e. Legion when they were first released), which would often cause you to go down no matter what if the Killer played it right. It wasn't particularly powerful, but it was uncounterable for the Survivor, and thus very annoying to play against. They simply improved upon the existing design so that it always works as intended, taking away the Terror Radius exploits but still forcing you to mend before you can heal or do gens.
Now the devs can implement perks and abilities that grant Oblivious and Undetectable, without worrying about breaking Legion again. I see it as a good preemptive solution to a problem that would have elicited a huge amount of complaints if they hadn't changed anything from the PTB.
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She has her own distinctive voice, but she doesn't sound noticeably louder than other survivors like Meg or Jane.
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Yeah, the map is noticeably darker now.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Descriptions are different, actual add-on effects are not changed.
Yeah, that's been my experience. I equipped Scrapped Tape, and it still had its old effect of giving a ring-shaped hitbox to Shock Therapy.
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@Atrushan88 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/886704#Comment_886704
The game is already over at that point in League, and you still risk dying, the enemy can still kill you, and you still are risking a comeback by doing it. The only person able to auto attack away from the fountain is Caitlyn and even then she might need a RFC shot to perform that. Either way at that point the game is pretty much over and you'll only kill each person once unless the game was extremely short and respawn times are still short. It's very hard to call that camping and you've already won at that point. Camping in DBD happens extremely early in the game on the killer's first hook. If you like griefing you're apparently welcome to it as BHVR enforces it, but it's still a dick move and there's literally no point in doing it aside from pissing people off.
Uh, there is a point in camping the hook: To interrupt the other survivors when they go for the save. That way you can get free hits, or get a grab. If the survivors are just sitting next to the hook, in plain view of the killer, waiting for the killer to leave, then the killer has no reason to leave the hook alone.
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@Atrushan88 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/886605#Comment_886605
How is camping a thing in League of Legends? You cannot enter the fountain, it is extremely risky to try to kill someone at spawn. Unless you're talking about jingling which is entirely different. I imagine the same goes for all of the other mobas you listed. All of those games I am sure have some sort of protection system in place upon respawning. You cannot prevent them from finishing the game. Random spawns, temp. Invincibility, etc.
Keys do not prevent play. In order for 4 people to get out through the hatch, the game has to be pretty much over. In ALL situations, at least 3 generators have to be finished for more than one to get out through the hatch. Also you know what I am talking about, you're just making snide remarks. If a survivor dies on one hook because a killer camped them out, they had no control over their situation and were unable to play the game once caught. There's no situation where a killer cannot play the game unless it ends. Killers have control over how they can respond to situations throughout the game. Survivors do not have that luxury if a killer decides they don't want them to play after hooking them once, despite normal gameplay meaning to allow them 3 hooks.
I take it you haven't played League of Legends much. At the end of the game, if your team refuses to surrender, the opposing team will often camp outside of the fountain so you can't leave, and use long-ranged abilities to snipe you while you're in the fountain, or just dive you in the fountain because they can one-shot you before the fountain kills them.
Random spawns and temporary invincibility don't help you if there's a chokepoint on the map that you have to pass through. If somebody camps there and you have to go through there, the only way you can play the game is to kill them before they kill you. Which is why camping is still extremely common in Call of Duty and CS:GO, to this day.
Spawn rooms prevent the enemy team from entering in Team Fortress 2 and Overwatch, but the enemy team can always just camp outside of the spawn rooms and kill anyone who tries to leave.
In order for 3 people to escape through the hatch, only one Survivor needs to die. If the killer has set up a 3-gen at that point, the game is far from over. But if the survivors have a key, the killer can do nothing to respond to it. Even if he finds the hatch first, it doesn't matter. Even if he uses Franklin's or kills the key-holder, the other survivors can just pick it back up.
There are a lot of ways for the Killer to put a survivor out of commission and force them to wait for help, or wait to die. If you can't deal with that, then don't play Survivor.
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@Atrushan88 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/885916#Comment_885916
Literally none of those prevent a killer from playing the game. Instaheals also no longer exist.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/885863#Comment_885863
Most PVP games prevented this because it's problematic. The player on the recieving end can't play the game.
A killer still has time to get another victim before all gens are done.
Keys prevent killers from playing the game. Instead of being able to chase survivors and get kills, the game just ends. And by your own logic, killing a survivor is griefing, because they don't get to play anymore.
"Most PvP games prevent camping?" No, they don't. There are countless examples of PvP games where camping is a thing. Team Fortress 2, Overwatch, Call of Duty, Counter-Strike: Global Offensive, DotA 2, League of Legends, Heroes of the Storm, World of Warcraft, Global Agenda, Half-Life: Deathmatch, Unreal Tournament, Quake... the list goes on and on. In any PvP game that allows you to just stay at a fixed position and wait for the enemy to come to you, camping is a thing in some form or another.
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@Fibijean said:
Flashlight saves were changed so that you couldn't shine a flashlight at the killer during the pickup animation (while they're powerless to avoid it) and save the survivor. So what happened there was as you surmised, they messed up the timing of the flashlight blind and started it too early.
When did they change this? I've been following the patch notes, didn't see anything about flashlights.
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@Atrushan88 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/883352#Comment_883352
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/883331#Comment_883331
You're deliberately making other players' game experience miserable with the intention of doing so. It's griefing. It's just "legalized" griefing because BHVR doesn't want to let go of it.
You're holding the game hostage for that one player who is on the hook. Saying it's anything else is lying to yourself.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/883349#Comment_883349
That is only true if the killer isn't intentionally making the game miserable for every survivor by playing like an #########. You can play normally and it can be fairly fun for everyone. Or you can camp and tunnel because all you care about are survivor tears. One is griefing, the other isn't. Nothing survivors do directly force the killer into a hostage situation where he just had to sit there and die on one hook despite being given 3 in a normal game. The worst they can do is move their model up and down.
"Holding the game hostage" is defined as intentionally creating a scenario where one or more survivors can neither escape nor die, thus forcing them to either disconnect or wait for you to let them go. For example, you can accomplish this by trapping a survivor in a corner, bodyblocking them, and never hitting them. Thus, they have no choice but to disconnect if they want the match to end. And that's a reportable offense.
Survivors can also take the game hostage, to some extent, by intentionally hiding in the outskirts of the map, never doing gens, and never getting into any chases. Thus, if the Killer can't find them, the killer has no choice but to disconnect if they want the match to end. Before the addition of the EGC, survivors could also take the game hostage by hiding after the exit gates were opened.
When you camp somebody, they always have the option to die, and after 120 seconds, they will die no matter what. Therefore, you're not taking the game hostage for anyone.
It sounds like you don't play killer much. If you "play nice" (i.e. Follow the survivors' arbitrary rules on what you are and aren't allowed to do), you're not going to do well. If every time you get a hook, you immediately leave the hook and run off to a distant corner of the map (Even if you see a survivor and/or scratch marks), you're throwing the match. Patrolling the hook, heading back to the hook after you receive an unhook notification, and downing the unhooked survivor if there isn't a better option available, are all legitimate strategies, which often prove necessary to win against competent survivors.
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@DepressedClownMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/883558#Comment_883558
Yes there is, hooks arent in pallets so by the time the bill gets the person off the hook, he is already on the ground
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/883732#Comment_883732
That is why it is a perk
Oh, so you agree with me, then? Good. Then BT will always activate, but the Deep Wounds timer will always tick down if you're not mending.
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Yeah, both Keys and Moris need to be reworked. Keys make the killer lose through no fault of their own, and Moris make the survivor lose through no fault of their own.
There's no real way to counter either one. Getting downed is inevitable as Survivor, because there are only so many pallets on the map. Losing gens is inevitable as Killer, because you can't be everywhere at once.
If they're reworked, they need to have a good counter. A way to stop them from just instantly costing you the game.
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@LordRegal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/884037#Comment_884037
Not to derail my own thread here, but as a former Nurse main, I just straight up find her unfun now. Dropped the character since games with her are more soul destroying than any other killer outside of Leatherface and too many consecutive Huntress games (her song gets to me). Having way more fun with Wraith right now, oddly. So while I will not argue she's still capable of performing in strong hands, I will 100% argue it's a fun problem she has now.
I just never found Nurse fun to begin with. You have such an all-or-nothing power that's extremely punishing if you miss, but allows you to destroy even the best survivor teams if you can land a hit consistently. It just feels stupid.
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I agree with a lot of people here: I think the biggest problem is with the emblem system. Speaking from personal experience, it's way easier to rank up as a Survivor than as a Killer, even if you aren't that good as a survivor.
Moving up the ranks is very difficult unless you're playing as an M1 killer. Trapper, Hillbilly, Huntress, Leatherface, Pig, Demogorgon and Plague will often get nothing more than a black pip for 3Ks and 4Ks, and will almost always depip if they get 2 kills or less. If your killer's power involves damaging the survivors and doesn't count as a basic attack, you will often be screwed over by the emblem system when you deserved to get 1-2 pips.
Also, I think the emblem system is another reason why Spirit is so popular in the red ranks: In addition to being really easy to learn and do well with, she relies on her normal M1 attack to damage survivors, so she never misses out on emblem points.
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I don't see a way to make this feel fair to survivors. Like NOED and Decisive Strike, it essentially rewards the player for failure. Also, it encourages survivors to stay injured and genrush.