Monlyth
Monlyth
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- Monlyth
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I've played lots of games with unranked and ranked queues; unranked isn't entirely free of sweats, but overall it's a vastly different experience to say the least.
So yeah, I'd say an unranked queue is desperately needed, and the fact that it hasn't been implemented yet is a bit of a head-scratcher. A lot of the frustration of playing DbD right now comes from running into sweats when you wanted to play a casual game, or realizing you were playing against casuals after playing sweaty.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021735#Comment_4021735
Those stream changes haven't happened, and may not even happen. They haven't even hit PTB yet.
We've already done this anti-tunneling song and dance once, and Killer players fought hard not to get those changes implemented because they were terrible. The fact that these changes are just as bad tells me the devs barely learned a thing from that PTB.
I can forgive a developer team making mistakes, running failed experiments, but I draw the line at making the same mistake twice.
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Yeah, in practice Bloodlust 1 is a pittance of what it'd take to compensate for the benefit of getting a Survivor out of the game early.
Tunneling isn't going to stop until the rewards for not tunneling are greater than the rewards for tunneling; simple as that. The meta trends toward the optimal strategy.
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@DeBecker said:
Its really embarassing seeing how people try to overshadow the fact that 9/10 people are survivors and that it is much more important to get a detailed guess why this is happening. Also still completely ignoring that you can answer whatever you want as killer too.
And what are the Survivor players going to do when all the Killer players quit because BHVR never listens to their complaints?
Like it or not, you need Killer players if you want to play Dead by Daylight. Or do you want this game to end up like VHS?
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The dev team desperately needs some Killer mains on call; the only way changes like this would even be considered is if in all the time they've been developing the game, they've never listened to an experienced Killer main discuss why Killers camp, tunnel or slug.
90% of the Killers who tunnel aren't doing it because they simply want to make the Survivors miserable, they do it because it's a winning strategy. If you want Killers to spread hooks, not camp and not leave Survivors on the ground, you have to make that a winning play. The proposed rewards for spreading hooks are laughably inadequate; Bloodlust 1 is nowhere near enough to compensate for the value of getting a Survivor out of the game early.
But the devs seem content to just nerf Killer and buff Survivor again and again; they gave Survivors Borrowed Time and Killers didn't stop tunneling. They gave Survivors Decisive Strike and Killers didn't stop tunneling. They made BT basekit and Killers didn't stop tunneling. They made Off the Record give Endurance and Killers didn't stop tunneling. When will they learn? All they've accomplished is making Killer feel more and more miserable to play, making more and more Killer players either quit or switch to S-tiers.
The devs have tried using the stick; it's time to use the carrot. But since buffing Killer seems intolerable, they fixate on the solutions that spare the feelings of Survivors. Because salty Survivor mains won't tolerate Killers becoming more powerful under any circumstances, for any reason, even if they ultimately benefit from those Killer buffs being in the game.
I'm not some crazy "The game is balanced when I 4k every game" Killer main, but it sure seems like the dev team is currently run by "The game is balanced when I escape every game" Survivor mains.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008732#Comment_4008732
Thanks for going into more depth. I think this comes back to definitions, because it seems like we’re working with different understandings of what “difficulty” means. I think if we’re both on the same page with that, it will help us figure out how to move forward. From your points in our discussion, it feels like you’re defining difficulty almost entirely in terms of mechanical complexity, like how many buttons are pressed, how often you move, how much action per second is required.
If that’s your definition, then yes, I can agree that the core of survivor mechanics are simple. But then doesn’t that apply to many killers as well? And even so, do you feel that mechanically simple is all that dictates skill or difficulty? Some killers like Nurse are less mechanically complex than others. Blinking and swinging involves fewer “button presses” than, say, Vecna managing spell rotation, yet Nurse is widely considered the strongest and one of the hardest to play well. Why? Because her difficulty doesn’t come from the physical act of pressing buttons, but from knowledge, precision, and timing of when to press those buttons. Just like looping. Nurse doesn’t even have to worry about walls to move around, or crossing pallets, or windows, but just because she requires less mechanical input does not mean she is not difficult to learn, or difficult to be good at.
That’s why I don’t agree that mechanical inputs alone can define difficulty. Otherwise we’d be saying Nurse is easy because she has fewer buttons to press, or that carpentry is easy because hammering a nail is mechanically simple, or that chess is easy because moving a pawn is mechanically simple. In all those cases, the real difficulty comes from what surrounds those simple mechanics, knowledge, judgment, and application. And I feel it’s disingenuous to disregard those things in regards to survivor gameplay and the impact it has in difficulty.
So I guess the question I’d bring back to you is: if mechanical inputs alone define difficulty, then why isn’t Nurse considered one of the easiest killers in the game? And if you agree she isn’t, then doesn’t that show that mechanical simplicity doesn’t necessarily equal low difficulty? What do you define difficulty as?
I'd argue that Nurse actually is pretty easy- what makes her "difficult" is that her power is so far removed from how the other Killers play that it's almost like playing a different role entirely. So you're essentially relearning the role from scratch. She also lacks the ability to use M1 as a crutch, so you will invariably lose your first several games with her.
Like, if you were to take one new player and have them start by learning Nurse, and take another new player and have them start by playing the usual noob-friendly Killers (Doctor, Wraith), I think they'd master their respective Killers at roughly the same rate.
Nurse's chase mechanics are arguably less complex than even a powerless M1 Killer. Pallets? Windows? Walls? Looping? All next to useless against Nurse. Pretty much the only thing she has to worry about is tracking Survivors, judging Blink distances and predicting Survivor movements.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008465#Comment_4008465
I appreciate the clarification, and I’m sorry for the misrepresentation, it was unintentional. I think this circles back to what I asked earlier about how you may view disagreement.
You’ve said escape rates are flawed, and high level performance is flawed. I understand that’s your opinion, so you have every right to argue that, but then what would count as a fair argument for the other side?
On the slot machine analogy, I don’t think that’s a fair comparison. Slot machines are entirely RNGbased, no matter how much you practice, you cannot change the outcome. Survivor by contrast, has many skill dependent factors: looping, resource management, decision making, teamwork, and map, perk, killer knowledge. Even “doing gens” isn’t just holding M1. Which gens you work, how you respond to killer pressure, when you reset vs. push the objective, and how you adapt to perks like Pain Res or Pop are all skill expressions.
I’d agree the physical act of holding M1 isn’t difficult, in the same way that putting a survivor on a hook isn’t physically difficult. But as with hooks, it’s the choices around which gen or which hook, and how those choices impact the match, that reflect skill. It’s closer to chess, I feel. moving a piece itself is easy, there’s no skill involved in literally picking it up, but which piece and which move you choose determines the depth of play. And that is skill.
On difficulty, I think escape and kill rates are a fair metric, because difficulty is generally tied to how hard success is to achieve. BHVR has openly said they want killer to be the “power role” with a higher success rate than survivor. By definition, if killers are expected to succeed more often, then it needs be harder for survivors to succeed. I typically don’t like to describe one role as “harder,” because both roles are hard in different ways, but I will say that it is harder to achieve success in one role than the other, which is still a measure of difficulty.
High MMR adds another layer. I 100% believe it shouldn’t be the only metric people care about or used as a benchmark of balance, since it represents a small percentage of players, but it is useful for showing the ceiling of what’s possible when both roles are played optimally. At this level, randomness is minimized. both sides know maps, perks, and resource management inside and out. If killer still consistently secures more success even when survivor is playing just as optimally, that suggests survivor simply cannot achieve equal results under the best conditions. That’s a valid indicator of relative difficulty.
It’s like if two runners have the same lung capacity, training, and skill, but one starts the race three meters behind the other. Even though they’re equally skilled, the runner starting behind has to work harder to achieve the same result. That structural disadvantage is what makes their path to success more difficult. And DBD has that structural disadvantage for survivor players in order to maintain killer in the power role (a structural decision I personally agree with).
Taken together, population wide escape/kill rates show the baseline challenge, while highMMR outcomes show the ceiling of challenge. Both are necessary for a complete picture, and dismissing either or only looking at one, makes it very hard to measure difficulty in any objective way.And so I ask, if we’re not able to rely on statistical data of the highest level to gauge difficulty, nor the average across thousands of matches in all MMR, and we obviously can’t rely on personal opinions or personal experiences, then how can we measure difficulty for either role?
If you're asking me what I would consider to be a correct and flawless argument that Survivor is the harder role, that's entirely hypothetical since I don't believe Survivor is the harder role. If I believed there were a correct and flawless argument in favor of Survivor being the harder role, I would be arguing that Survivor is the harder role.
Hooking is a pretty negligible part of playing Killer, especially compared to doing gens. In a 12-hook game, the Killer will spend, at most, 192 seconds carrying Survivors to hooks. Usually far less because it usually doesn't take the entire wiggle timer for the Killer to reach the hook. Whereas a Survivor can easily spend 270 seconds or more just doing gens in a single game. Not to mention healing and opening exit gates, which is similarly monotonous.
And I disagree; anything in the game which requires you to move will almost certainly be more skillful than something that doesn't. Being able to navigate a map and its terrain efficiently and effectively is a big part of what separates decent players from great ones, not to mention being able to do so while keeping an eye out for the opposing team and keeping track of all the other pertinent information for your role.
And if we're gonna be talking about high MMR, there's an elephant in the room- 4 man SWFs. Their 48.2% escape rate is way out of line with BHVR's target of 40%. And imagine how high it might be if you factored out high-tier Killers.
As for how to measure a role's difficulty, well, why do we consider Legion, Wraith and Bubba to be easy Killers? There's no statistics that show this; at best, you can make inferences from their kill rates. But nonetheless, it is generally accepted that these Killers are easy to play. Why?
Well, generally speaking, it comes down to ease of mechanics. What all of those Killers have in common are powers that are easy to learn, easy to understand and not very difficult to master. With Legion, you just press M2, vault over anything the Survivor puts in your way, and run them down. With Wraith, you cloak when you're out of chase and decloak while in chase. With Bubba, you press M2 when the Survivor is close enough and can't vault a window in time. There's a bit more nuance to all those powers, of course, but not much. The challenge of playing them at high levels mostly comes from trying to squeeze value out of such an inherently basic and limited kit.
Survivor's tools, for the most part, are similarly basic and barebones. There's basic movement, vaulting, pallets, doing gens, healing… and that's about it. Survivor's kit is almost akin to an M1 Killer with no power in terms of its simplicity.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008341#Comment_4008341
yeah, they're right, but see, that's the problem.
bad players NEED their crutches, because devs are making the game FOR BAD PLAYERS. they aren't making the game for good players and OF COURSE they aren't making the game for "bad survivors good killers".
so if you take away this crutch that gives survivors more balanced killers and reasonable gentimes, you will get krasues, because just like survivor players cant be told to "get gut", killer playes won't listen to that either. people want their casual game, so there it goes.
there will always be something that "feels bad to lose to" because that's the nature of the "balancing for bad (actually average but we all know what that means) players".
it doesn't mean you can't make these crutches harder to do, but this is the key difference - harder to do, not weaker if you do implement them in your gameplay.
on an unrelated note, another thing is that the anti tunnelling systems are FUNDAMENTALLY flawed, not just in execution, but in idea. You cannot PUNISH people for doing their job as a killer, because that would IMMEDIATELY cause the gameplay loop to fall apart or become narrowed to a chase simulator with little nuance to it.
We saw that on PTB where survivors' first instinct with the system was to play aggressively because the killer couldn't punish them for that anymore. Survivors always need to be threatened by a possibility of being tunnelled / slugged, this cannot change because then they would be greenlit to make all kinds of unsafe plays to win the game quicker that would normally be punished by aforementioned strategies.
The correct way to approach tunnelling issue is to identify if it actually is too easy to implement (it is) and look for ways to make it harder without just giving survivors more umbrella shields.
Elusive status effect was like that. !!Not!! the 30 second endurance part, but basekit "no blood, scratchmarks, sounds of pain, aura" part. Passive purely defensive effects that make it easier to leave hook and do the correct play of avoiding being found and tunneled in the first place.
Removing loud noise notification for unhook was a good idea, I think removing hook aura as well.
The whole "concealing hook progress and delaying the notification" part was a terrible design though that should make BHVR's head office question the competence of their game designers.
Well, like I said, if gen times are a problem, why not reward the Killer with gen regression for not tunneling? Hell, Pain Res has been an "anti-tunneling" perk for ages now, so why not make it basekit?
I agree that it's generally better to use the carrot than the stick to get Killers to play in certain ways- Killers usually tunnel simply because the rewards for not doing so aren't enough, or they require a lot more skill to properly take advantage of.
I think we'd see a lot less aggressive Survivor play if we only punished hard tunneling. If the Killer was only punished if they literally just hooked the same person 3 times in a row, and no one else.
Because that really doesn't leave much room for an unhooked Survivor to play aggressively- all the Killer has to do is win a chase after they leave the hook and they can tunnel the surv out just as before.
Another issue was that the anti-tunnel was introduced alongside the anti-slug system, which had plenty of problems of its own to say the least. The anti-tunnel in combination with the anti-slug made it very easy for Survivors on death hook to create "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations. If you hooked them, you'd be punished for tunneling. If you slugged them, they'd get right back up.
The problem I see with Elusive and just hiding information from the Killer is that it's inconsistent- on an outdoor map, the Killer might still be able to see the unhooked Survivor and run them down just fine.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008365#Comment_4008365
You are still ignoring that survivors have do much more than gens. Doing gens is one of the many things survivors have to do and they have to react/adjust to everything the killer is doing. They have to loop, hide from the killer, time unhooks smartly and so many more things while doing gens. The killer only has to hook and down survivors which is less than what the survivors have to do. Your scenario only applies to killers that are afk, because that‘s the only case where you are only doing gens.
No, I'm not ignoring that.
At what point is the correct play for a Killer to just stand still and hold M1 for 90 seconds?
Because the Killer has to think about which gens have the most progress, how much progress they have, keep track of everyone's hook states and health states, remember the last known location of each Survivor, keep track of the likely current locations of every Survivor, recognize, create and keep track of dead zones on the map; decide whether or not to take a chase, decide whether to hook or slug, and decide how they're going to play around their hooked survivors. All while continually patrolling gens, hunting for survivors, and chasing them.
You can never just stop moving and hold a button at your objective as Killer unless you want to throw the game.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008485#Comment_4008485
I play Pig, Chucky, Freddy, Myers, Wraith, Xeno, and Demo. I'll play the odd game with others but these are the ones I enjoy.
I find killer easier, and I've always maintained it's because i played survivor as well. I can often predict their moves, even guess where they're hiding, because I literally would play the same way. Aside from perks, there's nothing to significantly differentiate my opponents each game.
The flipside doesnt apply to the same capacity because there are currently over 40 killers in the game for survivors to learn the powers of, and how to counter them. Some killers have a lower pick rate than others, which leaves even less opportunity to understand or know how to play against their opponent.
Well, in my experience I find Killer the harder role, in part because I've never found it too difficult to memorize large quantities of information (i.e. Each individual Killer and their powers), and in part because it's much easier for me, playing Survivor, to simply not care about counterplay or other such stuff.
That's what Survivor has always given me the leeway to do. To not care. To simply buckle down and not worry about playing my best, because I know I'll at least perform adequately no matter what.
My escape rate is 42%, for reference. Pretty average for a solo surv, as of BHVR's last stat release.
I've never had any such luxury of not caring when I play Killer. If I run loops wrong, if I use my power wrong, if at any moment I'm not devoting my full attention to what's happening in front of me, it will invariably cost me distance, time, and eventually kills.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008482#Comment_4008482
Again, if everyone is on the opposite side of you and that means they're dishonest and manipulative then the problem might be you.
Bait used to be believable.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008479#Comment_4008479
I played both roles for 4 years until I quit survivor at the beginning of the year and now just play killer. Is your experience more valid than mine?
No. So let's get into the nitty-gritty: Apart from vibes, what specifically makes you think Survivor is the harder role?
Also, are you playing low-tier or high-tier Killers? Because it's worth noting that I almost exclusively play mid-tiers.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008473#Comment_4008473
Again with the insults. Not everything is a conspiracy or a manipulation against you.
I know. That's why I only call it out when I see that people actually are being dishonest or manipulative.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008426#Comment_4008426
Survivor is only as easy as the killer allows it to be. You've said before that you tunnel, so I can understand why you'd think survivor is easy when every game you pretty much leave 3 survivors with nothing much to do.
Most of the time, I don't even pay attention to hook states, meaning tunneling will inevitably occur in my games, either intentionally or unintentionally.
I literally play Survivor regularly; I'm vastly more relaxed playing Survivor than Killer, win or lose. Are you going to try and dismiss my subjective experience?
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008466#Comment_4008466
I'm not telling you how to act, I'm telling you why you're getting downvoted. You're belittling a huge chunk of the playerbase and you're acting like you deserve the Medal of Honor for it.
Say whatever you please.
I will say, this, though: It's pretty scummy that you tried to paint everyone who downvoted or badmouthed me as simply having a good-faith disagreement when we both know that's not true.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008456#Comment_4008456
This tone, aggression, and insult hurling isn't exactly winning people over to your side.
And why should I let you tell me how to act? I have no reason to believe you have my best interests in mind or are trying to be helpful.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008404#Comment_4008404
I think I may understand what you’re saying, but here’s where I think the issue lies. It feels like you’re equating “arguments I think are ridiculous” with “arguments made in bad faith.” That’s not always the same thing. You may disagree strongly with other perspective, but that doesn’t mean they’re being dishonest or trolls.
To better understand your perspective, let me ask: Let’s say my position is the opposite of yours, that I genuinely believe survivor takes more skill than cookie clicker. How could I explain that view in a way you would accept as good faith? What would separate me, in your eyes, from someone you’d dismiss as dishonest or trolling?
Right now the way most of your comments come across feels like the only arguments you’ll consider “reasonable” are the ones that don’t directly conflict with your own. That kind of implication makes it feel pointless or impossible to have a productive discussion, since any perspective that challenges yours can just be written off as bad faith.
I’d really appreciate you helping me understand the best way to communicate these disagreements in a way that feels respectful, honest, and receptive for both perspectives.
Well, to start, please do not misrepresent what I said.
I used the Cookie Clicker comparison in the context of doing gens. Of course Survivor as a role consists of more than just holding M1 at a generator, but the act of holding M1 at a generator, in and of itself, is not significantly more complex than playing Cookie Clicker.
Could I have specified that? Maybe. But given the way people have engaged with me thus far, I get the impression that people will still misunderstand or misrepresent what I've said no matter painstakingly and thoroughly I try to convey my exact meaning.
Escape rate statistics are a stronger argument, but if you'll look back through the thread, I already explained why that line of thinking is flawed; it's possible for a game to both be easy and have you lose frequently. Otherwise, we could call slot machines "difficult" games because the odds of winning are stacked against you. That seems to be part of how the conversation went off the rails, because people simply refused to concede that point.
Another stronger argument is pointing out Survivors' performance at higher skill levels, but again, I already pointed out the flaws in that line of thinking; a character with a low skill floor and low skill cap like Wraith, Legion or Bubba requires a LOT of skill to do well with at high levels- does that mean they are difficult Killers? And if they are, then what does an "easy" Killer look like? Which is another reason I feel comfortable in saying Survivor is the easier role.
Which is why I started to get the impression that people were not arguing with me in good faith. When their best arguments were put down, people began resorting to more ridiculous arguments like "Doing gens is as hard as anything Killer does".
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008449#Comment_4008449
Well, if you took a breather and took in some context of what is causing the survivor players to echo in this "chamber", you'd have stopped mentioning it all the time now, wouldn't you?
I've said it before, and I will say it again: Survivors has been complaining since the release of 9.2.0 (and during the PTB test period when it got known that anti-tunnel got postponed), because this patch which was supposed to fix the one thing that has been most frustrating for survivor players to deal with for many years at this point, turned out to be the inverse instead. Of course that causes EVEN more frustration.
Be that as it may, a bad patch is no excuse to be lazy, dishonest, or dogpile anyone who dares to say something negative about Survivor or positive about Killer.
If you're not interested in discussing the nuances of Dead by Daylight as a game and just want to vent, that's valid, but don't pretend it's more than that.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008444#Comment_4008444
If you think bravery can be accurately assessed by a video game forum, you may be sorely disappointed in life.
I worry for you, truly, if that is your mindset.
Oh, it doesn't take all that much bravery, I know. Just enough bravery to be willing to say something when everyone around you was telling you not to.
I could talk about some of the other things I do that I'd consider brave, but that's getting off-topic.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008443#Comment_4008443
You clearly do care somewhat, as you've been crashing out about them over the last few comments.
I've mostly just seen you enter hyperbole or anecdotal statements that you pass off as fact and perhaps it seems that way, in your own bubble.
Do try to step outside it..
Why don't you take your own advice, mate? The forums are not now, nor have they ever been free of biases. Least of all now when they're mostly just a Survivor echo chamber.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008432#Comment_4008432
…bravery?
I think we have startling different ideas of bravery.
Clearly.
I'd say how much bravery I think you possess, but I really don't think I'm capable of that kind of nastiness.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008437#Comment_4008437
Who cares about downvotes? Are they affecting your life? They mean nothing.
They're not objectively correct. You're wording is twisting Survivor gameplay to your view. You're trying to paint the more technical and info-heavy role as easy, which it isn't, unless the Killler is in a coma. If it were easy, Survivors would win more than they lose.
And people are tired of, "here, watch this content creator." Video links consistently get downvotes.
I don't care about downvotes, obviously, or I wouldn't still be here.
But are you really going to try and argue that everyone who disagrees with me has only the best intentions in mind when, even in cases where the facts objectively disagree with Survivors' prejudices, the actual facts are simply dismissed out of hand?
That wasn't a content creator's video, that was a replay from DbDLeague. Literal video proof of what I was saying.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008432#Comment_4008432
"Bravery" is quite the word choice for this particular situation. But maybe it's not that everyone but you is wrong. Maybe people just aren't as outrageously biased towards your very, very obviously favored role and are considering the game as a whole.
I've received multiple downvotes in this thread even when I was making points that are objectively correct.
For example, I posted this competitive replay to prove that DbD comp isn't all just hard tunneling:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqkbvsyC-hg
And nobody came out to agree with me over it- or indeed, ever brought it up again. They did hit the "Disagree" button 6 times, though. For what, exactly? Please give me a good explanation, because I'm drawing a blank.
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008430#Comment_4008430
This forum is little more than a Survivor main echo chamber.
Excuse me?
Were you around when the 9.2.0 PTB was announced in the start of this month?
It was pretty much nothing but killer mains defending tunneling.That may have been the case then, but I certainly can't say the same now.
I literally got downvoted 6 times for posting a competitive replay, one which proved that the point I was making was objectively correct (My point was that DbD comp isn't all just tunneling).
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008430#Comment_4008430
So you think none of these people you've been arguing with play and understand the Killer role and only care about Survivor?
If they do, they're clearly not interested in expressing an opinion that could be construed as pro-Killer or anti-Survivor on the forums.
Which is a bit understandable; it takes a certain amount of bravery to make a post knowing damn well that it'll be downvoted to oblivion.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008404#Comment_4008404
If literally everyone is disagreeing with you and thinks you're being over-the-top maybe you should reassess.
This is a bandwagon argument, and there's a reason it's a logical fallacy.
This forum is little more than a Survivor main echo chamber. If your post makes Killer look bad or Survivor look good, you get lots of upvotes and everyone will agree with you, no matter how rude, dishonest or logically unsound it may be.
If your post does the opposite, however, even if you're simply stating the obvious, you can expect tons of downvotes, people calling you all sorts of rude names, twisting your words, making wild accusations… not exactly the best environment for diversity of thought.
Why would I listen to people who tell me I'm wrong and call me rude names no matter what I say or do, unless I uncritically praise Survivor and badmouth Killer?
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008214#Comment_4008214
"saying a role that can literally spend an entire match doing nothing but moving from Point A to Point B and holding M1 is more difficult is disingenuous at best"
If that's all survivors are doing, then the killer isnt doing a very good job
It's not that hard; all you really gotta do is play a passive, gen jockey-unhooker-healer style of Survivor.
Sometimes the Killer finds you first, of course, but other games (Even against fairly competent Killers), you can spend the entire match just holding M1 and doing rescues/heals in peace. It's what I tend to do when I want to play as relaxed of a match as possible.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008404#Comment_4008404
when people make flatly ridiculous arguments like "Doing gens is just as difficult as anything Killer does",
You are the only one saying this.
The entire discussion started with the debate of whether "killer or survivor has the easier gameplay", to which you shifted the goal post to "doing gens takes no skill", and then completely ignored like 7 people who tried various ways to correct that "doing gens is not the only thing survivors must be able to do to win".
As much as this is overused in this forum, you are committing a textbook straw man with this.
You are the one engaging dishonestly.
You are ignoring the points that people are making.
You are seemingly having a conversation with yourself half the time, responding to either the wrong people, or just inventing discussion points because you feel like it.
Nearly every single comment of yours is either completely ignoring that others have spoken, or simply projecting.
Even attempting to give the benefit of the doubt that you honestly, truly believe the words you write, you aren't actually engaging in discussion. You're just having a conversation with yourself, and everyone else is just spectating.
Who said "Doing gens is not the only thing Survivors need to be able to do in order to win"? Point me to them.
Because that wasn't the point I was arguing against. Every time I said some variation of "Doing gens is easy", every reply was some variation of "No, it isn't".
Why do you think I fixated on that so much? It's an argument that only a fantasist with no grasp on reality or a liar would make.
Besides, "Doing gens is not the only thing Survivors need to be able to do in order to win" doesn't even conflict with my overall argument that Survivor is the easier role; if a significant portion of your time every match is spent doing something easy and almost mindless, that's clearly a sign that playing Survivor is easy.
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@ArcT said:
That 2 seconds saved on heals and 1 second on gates certainly makes up for the 40+ seconds off gens and BBQ.
Be serious for at least as much time as this 'punishment' would ever save. It'd only take five seconds.
You're so insistent that things like OTR and DS can only be used to punish innocent killers, and are here claiming that a giga buff to all killers would only benefit those not tunnelling.
If a change strengthens tunnelling, it doesn't matter what else it might somewhat incentivize. It will be used to tunnel. Tunnelling is already the strongest strategy with the least counterplay and agency afforded to survivors, and all this suggestion does is make it that much stronger.
Where on earth are you getting that math from? 40 seconds off generators? Did I not make it clear that the basekit Pain Res doesn't work if you hook the same Survivor twice?
25% extra repair, healing, and exit gate speed saving you 5 seconds at most? 25% of a heal is 4 seconds, 25% of an exit gate is 5 seconds, and 25% of a generator is 22.5 seconds. 31.5 extra seconds (Or more if the Survivors need to heal more than once/repair more than one generator) actually is kind of a big deal, by my estimation.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008372#Comment_4008372
Genuinely, can you explain who you believe is being toxic here and why? Who are the “bad faith trolls” and what exactly has been said in this discussion that you think warrants “a punch in the face in real life” ?
Disagreeing with your opinion isn’t the same as being toxic. At the same time, you’ve said there’s no skill involved in an entire role and compared it to cookie clicker. Can you see how that kind of language could come across as dismissive or offensive? The tone you’re accusing others of using is very similar to what you’re doing yourself.
If every disagreement is framed as “I’m just stating facts and anyone who disagrees is toxic or biased,” then there’s no room for good faith discussion at all. How do you expect conversations to move forward if other players experiences or perspectives are automatically invalidated if they don’t match your own?
You're confusing disagreement with dishonesty.
It'd be one thing if people were honestly engaging with my points, but when people make flatly ridiculous arguments like "Doing gens is just as difficult as anything Killer does", that is a red flag that they are not arguing in good faith.
And there's no room for good faith discussion with someone who isn't arguing in good faith. It takes two to tango. I can't have a reasonable discussion if I'm not talking to a reasonable person. And I can't beat someone with kindness if they don't value kindness.
So all that's left is to either leave the discussion entirely or call them out for bad behavior by accurately describing what they're doing.
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@ArcT said:
Buddy, you're just asking for not just basekit Pain Resonance and BBQ, but a massive buff to Pain Resonance, on top of having Pain Resonance itself, with only the lightest, absolute nothing of a deterrance.
Do you legitimately not stop and think about the gamestate at all when there's three survivors left? 25% bonus is literally nothing when one survivor is hooked, one is chased, one is rescuing. No amount of gen repair buff matters. And in return you've given a TUNNELLING killer at least 40-60% free extra regression and full view of all survivors BEFORE this supposed deterrance even begins, while they're tunnelling.
This is just a flat out giga buff to killers, and far more of a buff to a tunnelling killer than it is to one who isn't.
So nerf Pain Res. I didn't think I'd have to include that, I thought it would be pretty self-explanatory.
Besides, under this system, a hard tunneler would get a single use of basekit Pain Res and that's it.
If the game is really so hopeless after one Survivor is killed, how does anyone ever escape after someone gets tunneled out? Why doesn't every hard tunneler 4k every game?
For the Killer to keep 3 Survivors off the gens forever, they have to continually down Survivors faster than they can pick each other up- a tall order at best. Especially since the Survivors would have a buffed healing speed.
Also, my suggested punishments for tunneling are arguably harsher than what BHVR put in the PTB; they only gave a 25% repair bonus and blocked the Killer from regressing gens. My proposed changes gave Survivors a 25% bonus to almost all action speeds.
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@AdamZ said:
II like ur idea, but i would still like to have that 10% haste from hooking unique sütve, it might not seem much but from my experience it helped a quite a bit for killers like dihslinger,legion etc.
Yeah, I tried to err on the side of not making it overpowered, though; basekit Pain Res alone is no joke.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008372#Comment_4008372
That's my point though. I don't see anyone being super aggressive, so I don't know why we need to throw down. I've seen the other threads and people are getting banned from interacting with you. It's getting out of hand. Again, I'm not trying to call you out or be a d*ck. I'm just saying you should chill out.
I didn't say they were being super aggressive, I said they were being dishonest and intentionally provocative.
Tone isn't everything; manipulative people will often say some of the most vile things imaginable with a smile on their face, and a "Please" and "Thank you".
If people like that get removed from the forums, good. They're not contributing to constructive feedback or productive solutions.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008268#Comment_4008268
Can I just say, and I mean this with all due respect, you really need to take a chill pill. I don't know what it is that gives you such a strong personal and moral stake in these conversations, but whatever it is, I genuinely hope you find it and you don't keep acting like this. It really doesn't do you any favors.
When someone's being toxic, I call it out. This forum's become bloated with trolls who argue in bad faith constantly and then get mad at you when you point it out. People have gotten way too comfortable saying things on the internet that would get them punched in the face in real life.
Polite discussion with such people normalizes them. How bad could they be if you aren't treating them as though they are behaving badly?
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008259#Comment_4008259
Survivors are doing much more than just gens. You are decribing a scenario where the killer is afk.
Even if the Killer isn't afk, they can't be everywhere at once, contrary to what some Survivor players seem to believe. Doing gens is how you win, you're always going to be spending a considerable amount of time just standing in place and holding M1.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007917#Comment_4007917
Almo, the ex-dev people remember for really controversial things like saying we wont get accessibility because we're being annoying about it or nerfing huntress' lullaby bc of doctor's skillchecks, said a really based thing about this. You can read more here, but what it boils down to is that a big mistake these games made was creating a dissonance between the fantasy of the game and the actual gameplay. Killer was supposed to be scary / unstoppable, but ended up being the hunted one due to the means of protection survivors were given.
While I dont think DbD is going in this exact direction, I think they lean too much into "make killer scary" and end up killing the gameplay instead. Inadvertently, since they do have to balance these "op scary killers", they end up introducing the mechanics that DO end up creating this dissonance - killer is not allowed to kill survivors or be the intelligent hunter the game promises you can be.
They try too hard to sell the fantasy of an unstoppable killer that they forget this game is about outsmarting and outwitting the opponent. The way dbd accomplishes it is through strategies of applying pressure and being smart about who you chase, who you hook and who you kill.
What they end up accomplishing is a dumbed down husk of a game which looks glittery on surface, but is completely shallow on the inside.
It feels like DbD is experiencing a mid-life crisis and is trying to go back to its youth when it was still scary and immersive, but in doing so just destroys everything that made it such a good game. And no matter how hard it tries, it won't pass off as a what it tries to be. It's too late and it should move on.
I think some sort of anti-tunneling measure is justified. Survivor players are correct, to a certain degree- there's a lot of braindead Killer players out there who use tunneling as a crutch. I recently ran into a Freddy who barely landed his power, hard tunneled someone out of the game, even brought NOED. Certainly didn't feel good to die to him.
But any anti-tunneling system needs to be a LOT less heavy-handed than what BHVR had on the PTB. Like, keep the rewards for fresh hooks (Though I'd rework exactly how you reward Killers- like, give them a basekit Pain Res instead of Pop), maybe punish the Killer if they literally just hooked the same Survivor over and over until they're dead, but beyond that? Ehh… it'll have to be handled pretty carefully.
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I think it's okay for her ranged attack to be spammable and easy to land, but it should be hard for her to actually confirm hits with it afterwards. Right now, it's just way too easy for her to get hits in head form.
Also, Survivors should lose their infection after being hooked.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008314#Comment_4008314
Ghostface power isn’t affected by Vigil. I can say it by playing him kinda a lot.
I know, I'm just using him as an example.
Giving Survivors the ability to shorten Exposed timers will have a significant effect on the viability of Exposed perks and M1 Killers, even if it doesn't seem like it at first.
Weak Killers simply can't dish out hits very quickly most of the time, so a shortened Exposed timer could mean making Exposed perks completely useless on them.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008315#Comment_4008315
More like sweating to win a chase after getting tunneled off of hook.
So you admit doing gens is easy, then?
Was that really so hard? My goodness.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008307#Comment_4008307
Because you refuse to entertain the idea that theres more than gens UNLESS you're playing Killer, in which case the Survivors are just so so hard to down but that's not applicable when playing Survivor at all
I'm not keeping a straight face, I'm laughing my ass off at the hoops you make yourself jump through to justify your crazy take.
Oh, don't worry, so am I. The image of you sweating your butt off as you literally just stand in place and hold M1 in front of a generator is quite amusing.
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A lot of low-tier/M1 Killers kinda need every second of that Exposed timer; even experienced Ghostface players sometimes have the Exposed effect run out in chase.
It would unfairly punish M1 Killers, in my view, and they're already not doing great as it is.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008299#Comment_4008299
That you might be wrong?
Mate, you've been trying to tell me for the past couple hours that doing gens takes just as much skill as anything Killer does. I don't understand how you've even kept a straight face.
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Works for me. Anything to help close the gap between solos and SWFs.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008279#Comment_4008279
"People disagree with my bad takes, I knew you were all Survivor mains"
No, Im just not insanely biased against Survivor.
Could have fooled me.
You die on every hill. You argue every little point of minutiae, forever. You deny anything I say, no matter how absurd it seems to do so. You assume the counter-position to every position I offer, play devil's advocate about everything, muddy the waters on every single fact, no matter how inconsequential or self-evident it may be.
What other conclusion am I meant to reach here?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008289#Comment_4008289
Is killing people not how you win?
See, that's what I mean by doing a turnaround with an extremely false equivalence.
I don't know if you know this, but when you try to kill Survivors, generally speaking, they will run away and try to stop you. You have to track them, chase them, and outplay them to accomplish your objective. And even if you just sit in front of them after you've won a singular chase against them, you can't just facecamp them; the anti-camp meter will fill and they'll be able to unhook themselves.
And even if you catch them again (Which, need I remind you, is still considerably more difficult than standing in front of a gen and holding a button) and camp them again AND nobody comes to do altruism plays, by the time they die on hook, all the gens will be done and you'll lose.
There, I humored your bad-faith remark. Prepare your next bad-faith argument.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008284#Comment_4008284
You gave me a hyperbolic statement.
So have I been playing Survivor wrong this whole time? Is doing gens not how you win? Because I could have sworn that getting on a gen and staying there for 90 seconds was how you win. It was in the tutorial and everything.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008268#Comment_4008268
The classic turnaround since you have no proof.
I've also used your own logic to describe Killer. You just dont like it when it describes your role. So let's make it accurate instead of hyperbolic?
I literally gave you the proof you asked for; you just dismissed it by doing a turnaround and making an extremely false equivalence.
@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008279#Comment_4008279
But your exact words were:
Survivor's main objective is to spend 90 seconds standing in one place and holding M1.
So no, I'm not putting words in your mouth.
So where's the part where I said "Without looking out for the Killer or watching their HUD"? Because if I didn't say that, you know what that's called? Putting words in someone's mouth.
This is argumentation on the level of "I love pancakes" "So you hate waffles?!"; it's pathetic.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008268#Comment_4008268
The hypocrisy is strong with this one.
So all I need to do is Survivor is sit on a generator. Never mind the Killer sneaking up on me who could snatched me up. The teammates that may be hanging on a hook? They don't exist.
This is essentially what you're saying here.
Nice job putting words in my mouth, but no.
A Killer easily makes hundreds of little decisions in real time throughout a match, at almost every stage of the game. Whereas a Survivor, for a significant percentage of the match, will be doing nothing but holding M1, keeping an eye out for the Killer, and keeping an eye on their HUD. There's no real decisions to be made, apart from planning your next move after your current task is done.I probably should have left this thread a long time ago, tbh; this was always just going to be a Survivor circle jerk.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008259#Comment_4008259
That'd be like saying, "the killers objective is to just sit 16m away from the hook for 90 seconds while doing nothing."
It's bad faith, it's disrespecting the time and effort people put in to learning and improving and it's unequivocally incorrect.
via that logic, comp players arent actually good. They are just regular people who we just pluck from pubs and put into competitive.
Genuinely, what a terrible string of logic, if you can call it that. I understand being biased, but boiling one side down to "uhhhhhh EZ Mode 4 sure" is genuinely baffling levels of us vs them bias.
No, it isn't. I literally just accurately described what Survivor's main objective is, and you call it "bad faith" and "disrespect".
And I notice you have no problem claiming, without proof, that Killer is the easier role. So you clearly have no problem "disrespecting the time and effort people put into learning the game" so long as it's being done to Killer players.
You really are just here to badmouth Killer and defend Survivor at this point. You should be ashamed of yourself for this level of dishonesty.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008247#Comment_4008247
once again, prove it.
I would say you've clearly got an agenda or a bias against Survivor, since all I've ever seen you do is talk down to them as if every player is skillless.
But Im offering you a chance to prove it, all I've seen is words so far.
Survivor's main objective is to spend 90 seconds standing in one place and holding M1.
And, well, that should be it. That should literally be all the proof you need to understand why some of us might think Survivor doesn't take as much skill to play.
Seriously, how is that not enough?