Monlyth
Monlyth
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@DaSonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008247#Comment_4008247
Have you ever looked at a comp game? Tunneling and slugging is pretty much all it is…
Yes, I looked at this one right here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqkbvsyC-hg
Game 1 (Invictus playing Wraith): Killer willingly passes up multiple opportunities to tunnel. Gets 4 escapes.
Game 2 (Elysium playing Wraith): Killer willingly passes up multiple opportunities to tunnel. Gets 4 kills.
Game 3 (Elysium playing Ghostface): Killer willingly passes up multiple opportunities to tunnel. Gets 4 kills.
Game 4 (Invictus playing Ghostface): Killer willingly passes up multiple opportunities to tunnel. Gets 1 kill.
Game 5 (Invictus playing Ghoul): Killer willingly passes up multiple opportunities to tunnel. Gets 2 kills.
Game 6 (Elysium playing Ghoul): Killer willingly passes up multiple opportunities to tunnel. Gets 2 kills.
Need I go on?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008214#Comment_4008214
Prove it.
All you've done is state "nu uh" when you've encountered resistance. We KNOW you dont value anything except mechanical skill, which is patently ridiculous.
Killer needs mechanical skill AND strategic skill to succeed, for the entire duration of the match. They don't have the luxury of being able- nay, encouraged- to just take a break from moving around the map for 90 seconds while they plan out their next move.
And no, the existence of camping or tunneling does not mean that Killer macro doesn't exist. I assure you that even if they could chase as well as comp players, Killers who just mindlessly tunnel would never last in comp DbD.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008214#Comment_4008214
Killer is the harder role; it has proven so time and time again.
"Proven" where? In your own experience? If you have this undeniable proof that Killer is harder, I'd love to see it.
The team-based role will always be the more relaxed one, because the burden of winning the game is split among four people.
Actually, that's another part of what makes the Survivor role so frustrating, because it is MUCH harder to coordinate with other people you can't even communicate with. And oftentimes those teammates will have completely different goals than you, which will lead to the entire team's downfall in many cases.
Which game is harder? Cookie Clicker or Super Mario 64? Unless you're going to argue that standing completely still and holding down a button is somehow more challenging than having to move and react to things in real time, I think we both know which role is more difficult.
Sure, team games come with a lot of factors that make it frustrating; it's possible, quite common actually, to lose through no fault of your own when playing a team game. But that also makes it equally likely that you will win when you really didn't deserve it. And it means you always have something or someone else to blame when you lose.
Whereas in a 1v1 game, generally speaking, you have no one to blame but yourself; only you can see your mistakes, and only you can beat yourself up over it. Hence why casual players tend to gravitate towards team games over 1v1 games- the success of games like League of Legends and Overwatch (As flawed as those games may be) was no accident.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008195#Comment_4008195
If you aren't looking to have a thoughtful and in depth discussion in good faith, I'd appreciate a warning that you are looking to vent, not discuss.
If you consider accurately describing Survivor gameplay to be bad faith, I'd appreciate a warning that you are simply looking to bash Killer and defend Survivor, not have an honest discussion.
Killer is the harder role; it has proven so time and time again. There's nothing particularly wrong with that, mind you; it goes with the territory of playing a 4v1 game. The team-based role will always be the more relaxed one, because the burden of winning the game is split among four people.
But saying a role that can literally spend an entire match doing nothing but moving from Point A to Point B and holding M1 is more difficult is disingenuous at best.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008000#Comment_4008000
You simultaneously hype up Killer gameplay while downplaying Survivor.
Working on the wrong gen is disastrous. You need to know which gens are which and what to work on. Skill expression. You need to be able to identify and break 3 gens. Skill expression. You need to rotate effectively. Skill expression. You need to unhook correctly and then make a judgment call. Skill expression.
Just because you dislike the role or find it boring does not mean it can be simplified into "70% no skill".
For example, it makes perfect sense even to a new Killer to tunnel. They wouldn't call it that, but they'd see an injured person off of hook and a healthy person unhooking and choose the injured player. Same with camping. If people are in the area, a new Killer will park their ass right next to hook.
These are obvious plays that the game seems to encourage. Survivor gameplay is much different. Perhaps less mechanically intensive but no less skillful.
The skill is in different areas. You seem to be conflating mechanical skill as the only type that matters, which is simply wrong.
You have to identify the right gens to work on… and then you spend 90 seconds standing still, holding M1 and making no meaningful decisions.
You have to identify and break a 3-gen… and then you spend 90 seconds standing still, holding M1 and making no meaningful decisions.
You have to rotate correctly… and then you spend 90 seconds standing still, holding M1 and making no meaningful decisions.
If you genuinely find that difficult or stressful, maybe video games just aren't for you.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008094#Comment_4008094
So bad images on the internet = probable future murderer isn't insane logic? This reminds me of the tired arguments about violent games and movies leading to real life violence. I've seen a ton of horrible images and videos yet here I am, not a murderer. I'm so obnoxiously moral that people get annoyed at me here for being excessively ethical in regards to something as meaningless as this game. I consider ethics in everything I do. The internet has yet to change me. And I didn't say they were fine, I said they were ubiquitous.
And ignoring who? Who are you shaking your fist at? It was some ridiculous ragebait in a game forum and you transformed it into a matter of mass murder. Take things in context. It was gross but not apocalyptic. And don't worry, the hate agendas do include me, I just don't live in a hyperbolic woebegone fantasy where I think everything is the end of the world while simultaneously existing in humanity's easiest and most progressive time period.
Why would you be upset by people saying or doing toxic things in a video game, but not upset by someone saying horrible things about real-world minorities? The latter is categorically worse by any metric you'd care to cite.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008075#Comment_4008075
Backwards slides usually lead to prosperous times and leaps forwards, like the period after WW2. And most forms of progress can't be rolled back without some massive shift to the whole planet. You would need something like the plague, Dark Ages, or the Crusades. One country may become more anti-science, but the others will keep going. Rollbacks to healthcare are a societal shift and are not the same as rollbacks to the progress of medical science. Even with a current leaning towards more archaic views, things are still better for every marginalized group now than they were when when I was a kid, and that's just from one modern time to a slightly more modern time.
It's hundreds of mass shootings, not dozens, but America is not the world. And as horrible as the phenomenon is, it still pales in comparsion to the horrors of the past. Imagine living in America's Wild West period, or before the Columbian Exchange made different foods more accessible throughout the world. It's not even comparable. This is humanity's most comfortable hour.
So, what? We're not allowed to say something is bad or sound the alarm when bad things are happening simply because other people had it worse? What insane breed of logic is that?
These are the types of things that happen when hate speech is allowed to fester; it becomes normalized, people become numb to it, people pretend these things are completely fine when they are anything but.
Word to the wise: You can't beat these types by being calm, dispassionate, the adult in the room, because the things they're saying and doing should make you upset. It is normal, quite understandable actually, to be upset by cruelty, hatred and injustice.
Ignoring someone is what you do when they're insulting your mother, not when they're threatening the lives and livelihoods of innocent people. And if that isn't enough motivation for you, remember: The groups they're targeting are negotiable, and may soon include you if they don't already.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008067#Comment_4008067
Yet global homicide has been on a constant decline. Historically, wars were constant. Death and violence were everyday life. Combined with improved health care, decreased food scarcity, and growth in human rights, human life as a whole has more value in modern times than ever. Bad things on the internet don't seem to be standing in the way.
How many people are radicalized towards real-world violence out of these? Too many, I can tell you that.
How many would have done it anyway? Not that many, from what I've seen
What are you basing these statements on?
Whatever progress humanity has made can be rolled back with surprising ease, and the types who frequent Chan boards are among those trying to make that happen. In fact, we're currently seeing rollbacks to healthcare, food abundance, and human rights happening in countries that were once considered frontrunners for progress.
I base those statements on the fact that dozens of mass shootings occur in the United States every year that were directly linked to the supremacist ideologies common to Chan boards.
And there was a significant uptick in such violent incidents right around the time hate groups began moving to the internet.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008062#Comment_4008062
Sure they're not disgusted. That's why they're there, because it compels them. They're showing off their fortitude and edginess for the internet, where there's a coating of unreality on everything. Almost all would likely act different in real-life. Typing things you don't even mean just to project an image is easy. The chans are full of people testing the boundaries of society's tolerance. So is liveleaks and similar places. You can find a dead person with a simple Google search. There are probably millions of people interacting with these things everyday. Do I like that? No. Do I want more censorship of such things. Sure. But we'll just go back to the Faces of Death days when kids passed this stuff around, but instead of on VHS it'll be thumb drives. It's ever present and society continues on.
But how many people are radicalized towards real world violence out of these? And how many were already there and just feeding a thing that already existed in them anyway?
How many people are radicalized towards real-world violence out of these? Too many, I can tell you that. And the ones who don't go so far as enacting violence will often instead join political hate groups, with the goal of using the state apparatus to enact violence on a far wider scale than they ever could acting by themselves.
How many would have done it anyway? Not that many, from what I've seen; the reach and impunity that comes with the internet means it has never been easier for hate groups to find disgruntled, insecure young people and radicalize them to the cause. And placed in a different environment, most if not all could have gone down a different path.
Make no mistake, bigotry is learned behavior, either passed down through generations, or through the concentrated efforts of hate groups.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008060#Comment_4008060
Wow way to go extreme. 14-year-old internet edgelords are not mass-murdering death squad members. They're almost all just trying to make people mad.
I don't know if some 14-year-old internet edgelord behind a keyboard really hates me; that doesn't matter, but it doesn't change what they said.
And frequently enough, words like that are simply a prelude to actions in the real world. Plenty of mass shooters were radicalized on Chan boards.
And how those Chan boards react to such violence is just as telling; instead of being disgusted, many rally around it and defend the violence.
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008057#Comment_4008057
You can proclaim what you want with WORDS, but those kinds of images …
It's 2025, and I would have thought that people would at least have some decency to follow rules.No, you really can't proclaim what you want with words.
How would you react if someone said they were going to kill you, or your friend? Not very well, I'd hope.
So why, then, would you give it a pass if someone said they were going to kill an entire group of people, based on their race, gender, sexuality, religion, etc.?
And make no mistake, for far, far, far too many of these 4Chan types, that is the end goal. To murder entire categories of human being.
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@BbQz said:
So many people in this thread willing to throw rights away for "artificial" safety is crazy. @MDRSAN literally had the highest quality post in this whole thread and gets down votes.
Oh no, I can't loudly proclaim my perceived superiority to some minority group without being politely told to leave the game forum.
This is literally 1984.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008006#Comment_4008006
Pre-nerf Dead Hard was more for making distance. If anything, it's new Dead Hard that's more centered around endurance. Aside from that the circumstances around OTR's activation are a little different from Dead Hard.
My argument isn't that it's useless or anything, just that it's not the state of invincibility that some seem to portray it as. It only protects against one hit - that doesn't qualify it as 'god mode'.
It's not god mode, but you wouldn't know it from how some Survivors use it. Survivors tend to play a lot more boldly with OTR than without it, I can tell you that. One factor in that is that instead of being injured and needing to heal, Survivors only get Deep Wounds and need to Mend after taking an Endurance Hit. And since you can Mend yourself without assistance, it generally takes a lot less time than healing.
To understand how impactful an extra health state can be, though, I think it's helpful to think about how snowbally DbD is as a game, how small advantages can compound to have a big impact.
Let's say for the sake of argument that it's the start of the match, the first survivor to be chased (We'll call him David) has Endurance (e.g. From pre-nerf Dead Hard), that the Survivors split perfectly on gens, and that once a chase has started, it takes 15 seconds per health state for the Killer to win the chase.
So, the first chase starts. One survivor is being chased, and the other 3 are all doing their own individual gens. So, how much time does David's one extra health state buy for David's team? Since it takes 15 seconds for the Killer to take a health state, that's an extra 15 seconds before David's team has to go unhook him (Which means one of them has to stop doing gens), and an extra 15 seconds before the Killer starts chasing someone else (Which pulls another one of them off the gens).
So, David's Endurance bought his team an extra 15 seconds where the rest of his team is free to do gens. So, that's a total of 45 seconds of gen time. That one use of Endurance cost the Killer half a generator.
And that's being generous with the chase times- 15 seconds is a pretty short time for most Killers to take a health state, and there's no guarantee the Killer will be able to finish the chase after Endurance activates- the Survivor might make it to a strong main building thanks to the Endurance and force the Killer to drop chase.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007703#Comment_4007703
OTR isn't 'god mode' any more than a survivor being at full health is 'god mode'. Just hit them twice. Seriously, why do people treat endurance like it's some unbeatable thing?
Annoying sometimes? Maybe. God mode? Ridiculous.
Well, ask yourself why pre-nerf Dead Hard was so popular and powerful, even at the highest levels of play.
Even a single extra health state can decide the outcome of a match, particularly against Killers that already struggle to get hits in a timely manner. When you're playing Killer, every second counts.
This is also one of the main reasons why overtuned healing perks like pre-nerf Circle of Healing were a problem, by the way. When Survivors can consistently heal injuries faster than the Killer can make them, things get pretty brutal for the Killer.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007983#Comment_4007983
I am on mobile; it will take me a moment.
Yes, even artificial difficulty is still difficulty. When two sides have different rates of achieving the same outcome (a win), it is fair to say that one side is more difficult to achieve that outcome.
I think you are underselling how difficult good Survivor gameplay is, especially in the current era of DBD. Not only do you need to be good enough to either stall or prevent a tunnel, which is a lot already, but you also need to either have a great team of equally skilled players OR somehow be good enough to win despite it. Even focusing on the Solo aspect, you need to have map knowledge, perk knowledge, Killer knowledge and strategy knowledge to be able to succeed consistently.
Killer is a bit more straight-forward. There's still a huge knowledge barrier, but the skill required to execute successful tunnel-outs or camps is drastically less than it takes to counter those tactics.
Saying "artificial difficulty is still difficulty" is twisting the definition of "difficulty" to be almost meaningless. Again, by that definition, playing a slot machine is difficult.
Survivor takes skill to win in the same sense that killers like Cannibal, Legion, and Wraith take skill to win with.
Most of Survivor's basekit abilities are easy to learn and not very difficult to master. Again, 70% of Survivor gameplay is literally just going from Point A to Point B and holding M1.
The challenge of playing Survivor (Much like playing an easy-but-weak Killer) at higher skill levels mostly comes from working around the built-in limitations in their kit and squeezing out little advantages from the few places that do allow skill expression. Doing gens and healing takes roughly the same amount of time whether you're a new player who's just learned to hit skill checks or a tournament-level Survivor. So the main difference between a good and average Survivor is the other 30%- running the Killer, doing saves, doing bodyblocks.
So which is more difficult- a role that needs to play skillfully roughly 30% of the time, or a role that needs to play skillfully roughly 80-90% of the time? Because about the only time a Killer doesn't need to be expressing their skill in some way is when they're carrying a Survivor to the hook, downing someone out in the open, or camping the hook during the endgame.
There's almost always decisions to be made- where to patrol, who to chase, how to run a loop, how to use your power, when to lunge, whether to break or leave a pallet, whether to slug or hook somebody, whether to proxy camp or commit to a new chase, whether to kick a generator or keep moving, whether to tunnel or spread hooks, whether to leave a Survivor with an injury or commit to a down, whether to hit a bodyblocker or try to path around them. And the answer to all of those questions will vary depending on the circumstances the Killer finds themself in.
A Killer easily makes hundreds of little decisions in real time throughout a match, at almost every stage of the game. Whereas a Survivor, for a significant percentage of the match, will be doing nothing but holding M1, keeping an eye out for the Killer, and keeping an eye on their HUD. There's no real decisions to be made, apart from planning your next move after your current task is done.
Saying the latter is more difficult is patently ridiculous.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007954#Comment_4007954
Killer used to be balanced around a 50/50 style, now it is not the case.
Okay? So are you going to address anything else that I said?
Is playing a slot machine "difficult" because you're more likely to lose than to win? Because pulling a slot machine's lever has about the same level of difficulty as holding M1 on a gen.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007867#Comment_4007867
Easier to get a favorable outcome, its relatively easy to pick up someone like Ghoul or Wraith and do quite well. Very difficult to play Survivor, partially because of the team-based nature, but also because of the learning curve.
Regardless, we see it clearly represented in the stats.
Now, if it had been 2018-2021, I would have agreed that Killer was more difficult, but that simply isnt the case anymore. Killer has been made far easier and far less punishing.
Just because a role wins more often doesn't make it easier.
Shin Megami Tensei 3 often feels hard because you will lose quite frequently (Especially on the hardest difficulty), but as I continued to play, I realized that a lot of your defeats will be due to random factors entirely outside of your control.
It's common for a random encounter to kill your character on the first turn, before the player even has a chance to fight back. And it's often possible to make no mistakes when preparing for or playing a boss battle, but still lose because the RNG was feeling unmerciful.
Does that make SMT3 a difficult game? Being defeated by random BS through no fault of your own? Because that's largely what makes playing Survivor "difficult", especially in solo queue. It's a team game, and a lot of the time you simply have to hope your team doesn't let you down, even if you played the game virtually flawlessly.
Besides, DbD has had a near-60% kill rate throughout almost its entire lifespan. So using your logic, has Killer always been almost exactly as difficult as it is now? Have all the myriad changes to both sides throughout DbD's entire history had no significant effect on the difficulty of playing either role? Does that sound credible to you?
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007675#Comment_4007675
this is what playing one side does to a person.
they really forget that as far as devs are concerned with their balancing mindset they are NOT changing in the foreseeable future, the game is already pretty balanced. average killrates are about 60%, even below that, actually, except for like all MMRs solo qers.
so any big change like that will be compensated and accounted for in the future killer designs.
yeah, it's likely that the majority of the roster will be in fact nerfed, but most of these killers the changes are targeted at will just migrate to the newest accurately "balanced" thing.
and even if none of these changes happen, there is still MMR system that does work to a greater degree than people like to think. Even if devs miraculously do give survivors this gigabuff, this will just artificially boost survivors way above their skill level and they will be matched with killers that can keep up in spite of that. Of course, that would also mean that most casual killers will most likely quit, so this would also lead to very long queue times on the survivor side which is not something you'd expect to happen for a role that is supposed to have higher demand.
There is no conceivable scenario for toxic casuals where they win. There are only those where they lose the least and, ironically, this is the scenario that involves developers balancing the game around fair and interactive killers, rather than putting killers on rails and giving them ultra op chase to balance or eradicating their casual killer playerbase.
The direction DbD is going in reminds me of VHS- if you've never played it, Monster (Killer) was extremely difficult to play. Almost everything about the game was skewed in the Teens' (Survivors) favor.
Teens could build weapons to turn the tables on the Monster (And the objective was for Teens to kill the Monster with 4 different weapons), there were powerups for Teens scattered all over the map, camping and tunneling were both disadvantageous (If you only focused on one Teen, the others would be free to build weapons- plus, you could only down Teens, not hook them, and they could pick themselves up after a fairly short amount of time), and the optimal strategy was for one Teen to lure the Monster around a corner while multiple other Teens laid in wait with weapons ready.
Any new player trying out Monster would get creamed over and over- so in the end, the only people who willingly played as Monster were people who were willing to suffer through countless crushing defeats and were really good. So Teens still ultimately lost games at roughly the same rate as in DbD, except the Teen queue times were way too long because nobody wanted to play Monster.
So yeah, there's no version of this where Survivors come out on top and get 4 escapes every game. They're gonna keep getting killed at roughly the same rate- the question is, do they want low-tier Killers to be viable, or do they want to play against nothing but Blight/Ghoul? Do they want queue times to be reasonable, or do they want to play one match per hour if they're lucky?
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@kosaba11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007867#Comment_4007867
Yes, the Survivor's gameplay is severely limited and simple, but it's not like it's easier than Killer because of that. There are plenty of builds that Killers can use that make playing Survivor a nightmare, plus various Killers whose base kit alone make it simply too easy for them. Yes, on the weaker Killers you have to work more, and maybe it's just a matter of skill, but I've never had trouble as Killer. My kill rate, at least according to their stat website, is 65%, and that's without running meta builds or even using add-ons. Again, I get this may just be a simple difference in skill, but Killer is simply too easy.
My kill rate is similar, but I've almost never felt like a Killer match was actually easy. I had to work for those kills. If at any moment I wasn't paying attention or I made a mistake, it'd cost me.
Whereas in many if not most of my Survivor matches, including the ones where I escaped and/or we got 3/4 people out- I felt like I could basically just turn off my brain and hold M1 for the majority of the match.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007562#Comment_4007562
Because there's no challenge in it and I feel bad doing it.
I've got two options for playing Killer. I can either handicap myself to allow the Survivors a chance, which doesn't feel good for me since I'm not really playing the game, OR, I can go full tilt at a bunch of random and absolutely slaughter them with no resistance.
That isnt fun and it's hardly PVP. I don't like to beat up on less experienced players.
Killer is undeniably easier than Survivor, by design. A rather large flip from when I started.
Easier than Survivor? By what metric? 70% of Survivor gameplay is literally just running from Point A to Point B or holding M1. You can be terrible at running the Killer or countering their power and still win pretty regularly as Survivor- I do it all the time.
You have no such luxury as Killer. Your objective isn't an inanimate object on the map that you hold M1 at- your objectives will actively run away from you and drop pallets on your head. If you can't win chases, you'll invariably lose badly.
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A bad trend I've seen in BHVR's recent balancing decisions is that they seem to balance Killer almost exclusively around top-tiers. When Killer is struggling, they don't usually buff Killer's basekit or perks- they buff the new Killer's power. Survivor's perks and basekit also seem to be largely designed to match the power of top-tiers, rather than Killers whose powers aren't insane.
The gap between low-tiers and top-tiers feels wider than it's been in years, and if BHVR's balancing decisions are any indication, it's only gonna get worse from here. And that's bad news not just for Killer players, but Survivor players as well, mind you- if low-tiers aren't viable, you're gonna be seeing a LOT of Krasue, Ghoul, and Blight in the months to come.
We really need to start reining in the power of top-tier Killers and bringing the low-tiers up to par. Stop with the power creep and bring things back to a reasonable place.
And think twice before you teabag a low-mid tier Killer at the exit gates- that's where Blight/Ghoul/Krasue mains come from.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007440#Comment_4007440
In this sense, yeah, with short chases casual players will be forced stick to gens harder. Soloq will be even harder and SWF will be even more chill experience, with soloq < killer < SWF gap will be even bigger.
So yeah, it's great that at least someone talks about it now, before it's too late.
Edit: But by watching replies, it seems people completely missed what this post about and probably didn't even read it.Yeah, in the end, if you deny Killers the ability to use any strategy other than "playing nice" and hooking after every down, then the only game variables left for BHVR to balance things with will be gen times and chase times.
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@kosaba11 said:
Forums reflect the state of the game - if the forums are too negative, it's because the developer, in this case BHVR, has been making horrible decisions time and time again, far too often.
In my experience, game forums almost always have a negative tone; people who are content with the game as-is generally don't take the time to gush about it on the forums, at least not for long.
One thing I have noticed, though, is that Survivor mains seem to have a pretty firm grip on the forums. Any post that defends Survivor and badmouths Killer can expect to get lots of upvotes, and vice versa for downvotes. It's kinda expected, though; by design, there should be around 4 Survivor players for every Killer player.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007251#Comment_4007251
Just curious why you say killer is “easy mode”. Is this based on your personal experience? Can you share your killer stats? I certainly have some easy matches as killer, but I also consistently face skilled survivors and those matches are not “easy mode”. Maybe I’m just bad and need some help. Do you have any videos your killer gameplay to show how to win easily every time?
Survivor mains are accustomed to getting buff after buff in every major update, and this patch was going to practically codify the Survivors' Rulebook for Killers before the Killer players (Accurately) informed BHVR that their anti-tunneling and anti-slugging systems would break the game for Killer.
But now that BHVR's scrapped those systems to be revisited at some later date, the only things left over in the patch are a couple nerfs to common Survivor perks like Off the Record, the map changes (Which added a lot more pallets to maps and made the game significantly easier for Survivor), and the new Killer (Who's pretty OP, to be honest).
But anyway, I'm happy to share what I know about playing Killer. Where would you say you're struggling most?
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@drmcsleepy410 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007455#Comment_4007455
Killer quite literally is the the easy mode and it’s not even close anymore, no matter how much you want to believe otherwise.
And yet you have not a single word of actual advice for a Killer main who's struggling?
I mean, if it's that easy, why don't you just play Killer and collect your free wins?
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007548#Comment_4007548
With all due respect your previous behavior and debate tactics has made any discussion with you "not optimal" and cannot be handled with maturity. I am having that discussion in other threads and with other people. But any words with you have been proven to result in personal attacks and trolling. So from this post forward…I'm not interacting with you as it is exhausting and goes nowhere. If you take this as a "win". cool. whatever. take whatever validation you need. The "win" for me is having peace in your absence.
Future discussions you take part in you would do well to avoid personal attacks, off-topic tangents, etc. Please do consider CBT and self-reflection.
If another person in this thread would like to talk about potential tunneling fixes, I will be happy to have that conversation.
And nothing of value was lost. I'm getting real tired of your first-year psych-student condescension.
You've literally spent this entire conversation doing nothing but attacking my character and adamantly refusing to discuss productive solutions with me. But I'm the bad guy for calling you out on it? Give me a break.
You've done everything you accused me of doing and willfully ignored it every time I pointed it out. Might I suggest you take your own advice and seek therapy? Projection certainly isn't a sign of a healthy psyche.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007539#Comment_4007539
The IRONY 😂 at this point I'm convinced you're rage baiting
So when are you gonna start talking about what we can do to actually solve tunneling instead of just slinging insults at people for playing in a way that you don't like?
To start, I think something like Pain Res basekit would be a better reward for unique hooks than empowering the Killer's next gen-kick, because a lot of Killers (Particularly Killers with low mobility) often can't make good use of an empowered genkick- it'll often take too long for the Killer to reach the gen with the most progress.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007537#Comment_4007537
Not at all what was happening during this "discussion?". You should start from page one and reread it all tbh. You should have someone else copy and paste the "discussion" and cover the names so you can help eliminate bias when going over it.
"You seem much more interested in doing character assassinations"
For real? You've been doing personal attacks for awhile now and even tried to spin me as a bigot in a very off-topic rant lol.
You: repeated insults, saying you feel bad for ppl who know me, trying to spin me as a bigot
Me: Tunneling is selfish
You: THESE CHARACTER ASSINATIONS BY YOU CANNOT STAND 🤬
See what I mean? Absolutely no interest in actually solving the problem. Only interested in saying or doing whatever it takes to paint yourself as the victim and everyone else as the bad guy.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007528#Comment_4007528
it'd be totally bananas if i was also non-heteronormative and a minority but the difference was I'm more pragmatic and you…to be respectful…aren't. It'd also be crazy if i was in grad school for psych.
Crazy work turning this from a discussion about the issues of tunneling to personally attacking me and passive-aggressive lectures about your orientation. Like this isn't even about DBD anymore lol. Like what are you doing? 😅
Pragmatic? You refuse to discuss practical solutions to credible problems in the game's design, simply because I refuse to apologize for tunneling. I understand that a lot of Survivors find it frustrating, and I honestly do think it needs to go, but I won't blame myself or anyone else for doing it when it's completely legal according to the game's rules.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, you wanna brainstorm an anti-tunneling system that feels fair to both sides, I'd be happy to, but that doesn't seem to be what you're interested in here. You seem much more interested in doing character assassinations than actually solving the problem you claim to care about so much.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007497#Comment_4007497
"Why would I respect someone who stubbornly refuses to listen to reason? Why would I respect someone that has no consideration for the feelings or plights of others? Those are not respectable qualities."
The hypocrisy in this statement. Especially since you're personally attacking me because my argument is in favor of the majority while yours is in consideration for you alone.
"You are not the first person to try and pathologize me simply for having a bit of self-respect, and you will not be the last."
If this is a regular occurrence for you then you should take some time for introspective thinking. What about your behavior causes this to be so regular? If i had to guess you've developed a highly defensive maladaptive coping mechanism due to disapproval and negativity in your life. CBT will help with that. Therapy is not about affirmation. It is about the identification of maladaptive thoughts and behaviors.. and challenging them to improve yourself. The purpose of therapy is to help people better understand themselves, manage their emotions, and develop healthier ways of thinking and relating to others so they can live more balanced and fulfilling lives. At its core, it is about growth, healing, and building the skills needed to navigate life effectively. I would reccomend heavily that you consider perusing it, namely CBT. Long term studies show that CBT is just as effective, if not better than typical SSRIs.
Here's one more thing you learn from being non-binary (Hopefully the last I'll need to share): Just because you're a minority in the population doesn't mean you aren't entitled to the same dignity, respect and empathy as everyone else. It's not okay for things to be unfair for one group simply because another has a numbers advantage over them.
And here's some fun facts about being trans/non-binary: It was treated as a disease by the field of psychiatry until fairly recently. Whether or not a trans woman was diagnosed or allowed to take HRT was based on how attractive the doctors thought they were. Trans men were infantilized and seen as unable to make their own decisions. Non-binary people were dismissed altogether.
Anyone who's marginalized, anyone who doesn't quite fit in the uniform mold of society, has been pathologized and treated as a problem to be solved by society, because of people like you.
People with some sort of gripe, who are desperate to find someone else to blame instead of doing something about it. People who feel owed power and control, and see the absence of that power and control as a humiliating insult. People who are unhappy, but also deeply unwilling to investigate why or change anything about themselves or their lifestyle.
I don't say this to claim that you're a bigot, by the way; your behavior simply follows a similar pattern.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007486#Comment_4007486
Oh you're CRASHING out crashing out now. Straight up stopped debating respectfully and went full personal. Very adult of you.
if you call me a poopy head next then you're not invited to my birthday party harumph! 😡
Look. If you cannot have a respectful discussion with logic and not emotion. Then were done here. I would highly suggest therapy based on the repeated personal attacks and overall viewpoint on the world and others. CBT, DBT, ACT, or interpersonal therapy are all good options for you and for anyone for that matter.
"Oh, look how mad you are, simply because I chose to believe a bad, dumb, wrong thing on purpose!"
You are not the first person to try and pathologize me simply for having a bit of self-respect, and you will not be the last.
Why would I respect someone who stubbornly refuses to listen to reason? Why would I respect someone that has no consideration for the feelings or plights of others? Those are not respectable qualities.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007473#Comment_4007473
More with the personal attacks 🙄
The irony here is that you accuse me of having “zero consideration for the perspective of others,” while defending a playstyle that literally denies others the ability to participate in the game. Tunneling is not just “another annoyance” like a perk, a killer power, or a map tile. It is the one strategy that completely removes someone from the match within minutes. That is not subjective. It is a measurable difference in how the match plays out.
I am also aware that my opinion towards tunneling IS subjective. Im not saying its not. However, my opinion is shared with a majority of players. If the majority of anything has an opinion, people usually side with that majority as it serves the best interest of the majority. That's not a me thing…thats just life lol. Literally the reason for votes…to see the majority opinion and act on it.
You are right that people do not owe blind trust, but multiplayer games do rely on a social contract. The unspoken agreement is simple: everyone in the lobby gets the chance to actually play. That is the baseline expectation in any interactive experience. If your approach to the game is “I am not obligated to care about anyone else’s experience,” then you are proving my point about selfishness driving toxicity.
And let us be clear. This is not about kindness, nor about forcing people to play “nice.” This is about match health. Survivors make up four out of five slots in every game. If a large portion of them decide they are done putting up with tunneling, the game dies. That is not an opinion. It is math. The OP is evidence of that as they are leaving the game for this reason.
"And you are not obligated to show kindness to people who don't value kindness." Completely agree, so when you experience toxicity and hate because of YOUR behavior, then feel flustered about it…remember your own philosophy. According to your logic because of your personal attacks towards me, I should be warranted to attack you personally. But I'm not gonna…because I'm a grown up. Remember the personal attacks started with you. Not me. So use that knowledge to think about your quote and the irony of you saying it.
You can disagree with me, but resorting to personal jabs like “I feel bad for anyone who has to deal with you in real life” shows you are arguing from spite rather than from logic. If the only way to defend tunneling is to attack people personally instead of addressing the actual point, maybe that says more about the weakness of the defense than about me.
As for your bit about your gender-identity. You don't my identity, my sexuality, my anything, and I plan to keep it that way because it is COMPLETLEY irrelevant to the discussion. And if you make more personal attacks because of me hiding my personal information…then that is a reflection of your hate. Anything about me is based solely off your presumptions and negative emotions directed at me. And what you learned from being non-binary…is something every human ever learns regardless of demographic.
The fact that me essentially arguing "be good and fair to one another and strive for mutual enjoyment" is met by your personal attacks is crazy lol.
Look, I get it. You demand the respect that you refuse to show to anybody else. And if you're not gonna get it through your thick skull that yes, "Cooperation goes both ways" applies to you as well, then you're wasting your time.
I treat Survivors the way I'd like to be treated, and if that makes you mad, well, that's too freaking bad. Your Rulebook can go to hell.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007448#Comment_4007448
You are lumping everything together under the “Survivor Rulebook” meme, and that is exactly why these conversations go nowhere. People complaining about perks, killers, or playstyles is just normal salt. That happens in every competitive game. But tunneling is not the same as “people don’t like Knight” or “people complain about proxy camping.”
The reason tunneling gets singled out so often is because it does something no other strategy does: it removes one person from the game entirely within minutes. Survivors might dislike facing certain killers or perks, but at least they are still playing. Tunneling denies that completely. That is why it is talked about as toxic far more than anything else.
Nobody is asking you to play with handicaps or to deliberately gimp yourself. Nobody is saying you cannot use high-tier killers, strong perks, or good strategies. What people are asking is for killers to acknowledge that going out of your way to tunnel someone out early is the one “optimal” strategy that consistently ruins matches and drives people away from the game.
So no, this is not about some imaginary Survivor Rulebook. It is about one specific strategy that has outsized negative impact compared to anything else survivors can complain about. You can play strong, play to win, and still avoid tunneling. That is not a handicap. It is simply choosing to play in a way that keeps the match engaging for everyone instead of turning it into a lopsided stomp.
Does a survivor typing “GG EZ” remove you from the game and stop you from playing the way tunneling does? No, it doesn’t. And if it bothers you, there is literally a setting to hide endgame chat.
Does a survivor saying you shouldn’t play high-tier killers prevent you from playing the match like tunneling? No, it doesn’t. Again, that is solved with the hide chat button.
Does someone saying Knight is annoying actually stop you from playing a match like tunneling? No, it doesn’t. Once more, that can be solved by hiding endgame chat.
Does being called a tryhard or baby killer prevent you from playing the game like tunneling does to survivors? No, it doesn’t. Yet again, solved with a single button press.
NOTHING a survivor can do, outside of cheating, can prematurely remove the killers ability to play the game.
In the past year, despite playing at very high MMR, I have maybe had two or three people say “GG EZ.” And in those rare cases, the other survivors defended me because they enjoyed the match..and I won those matches. The vast majority of my survivor interactions are positive. In fact, I find most survivors match the energy you put into the game. A small gesture like staring at a dropped pallet after someone misses a save is enough to get people laughing and creates positivity in postgame chat.
From my experience, most survivors are just goofy and fun. It is interesting that the people who constantly defend toxic playstyles also seem to be the ones who repeatedly encounter “toxic survivors.” Maybe that correlation says more about how they play than about the community itself.
Your frustration and anger towards toxicity is justified, your behavior is not. General rule of thumb for life not just DBD.
So stop using the toxicity of others to justify your own.
Wow. You genuinely have zero consideration for the feelings or perspective of others. You can't even begin to imagine the perspective of someone who finds some aspect of DbD more annoying than tunneling. You act as though your subjective experience of Dead by Daylight is objectively correct.
Here's some more things you learn from being non-binary: You are not obligated to put your trust in people who have invariably betrayed that trust. You are not bound by rules if you never agreed to them, nor if the agreement was made under duress.You do not have a social contract with someone or something that doesn't have your best interests in mind. And you are not obligated to show kindness to people who don't value kindness.
I genuinely feel bad for anyone who has to deal with you in real life.
@wakesafe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007448#Comment_4007448
I’ve been lurking cause new killer release and I’ve advocated for survivors in the past but I’m just commenting here again after literal months to let you know that other person is off the rails. Tunneling is hardly “toxic” and anyone trying to push it as such should really have their opinion disregarded.
I believe you. I've only ever seen this level of self-righteousness come from some deeply unsavory places.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007427#Comment_4007427
You are twisting this into something it is not. Nobody here is demanding apologies from killers or begging for them to “grovel.” What people are saying, over and over, is that tunneling is uniquely destructive to the health of matches. Pointing that out is not about clout or power, it is about protecting the long-term playability of the game.
Yes, practical solutions are absolutely needed. You will notice that many of us are calling for Behaviour to implement changes that reduce the incentive to tunnel, just like they did with facecamping. That does not mean players are absolved in the meantime. Self-governess matters. You can recognize that something is technically allowed by the system while also recognizing that spamming it at every opportunity damages the experience for others.
And your “survivors expect killers to go easy” line is a strawman. Nobody is asking killers to throw games or play poorly on purpose. Survivors expect killers to play in a way that allows everyone to actually participate. There is a massive difference between “going easy” and “not removing someone from the match in two minutes.” You can play hard, use strong killers, use meta perks, and still spread pressure instead of tunneling someone out immediately. That is not “playing poorly,” that is playing in a way that keeps the match engaging.
As for reciprocity, the comparison does not hold. Survivors doing gens or making saves does not erase the killer from the game. The killer still plays until the gates are powered or the survivors are dead. Tunneling, on the other hand, erases survivors from the game entirely. That imbalance is why it is called toxic. Survivors cannot reciprocate something that does not exist in their toolkit.
You accuse people of lacking self-awareness, but think about what you are defending. You admit tunneling is effective, you admit it frustrates survivors, and you admit it hurts the health of matches, yet you refuse to take even partial responsibility for choosing to do it. Blaming everything on the devs while ignoring your own role in making the community miserable is the opposite of self-awareness.
This is not about demanding apologies. It is about acknowledging that fun can be mutual, that wins can feel earned without tunneling, and that both system changes and player responsibility are required if this game is going to remain healthy.
"If they give reasoning for why they played in a way that you don't like, it's always not good enough somehow"
This is not even remotely the case. You are just being hyper-defensive at this point. The only ‘reasoning’ you have given me boils down to ‘selfishness is fun for me.’ Selfishness is never an acceptable excuse for anything. Nobody is going to fault you for rehooking someone who is bodyblocking or blatantly toxic in a match. That is not the issue.
What this entire debate is about is needless, warrantless tunneling done solely on the grounds of ‘it is optimal to ruin someone else’s experience so I can win.’ That is what people call toxic tunneling. If there are other reasons, I am fine with it and I will support it. I have even laughed with friends who got tunneled because they were being obnoxious and said, ‘yeah, you deserved that.’ The problem is tunneling based on selfish reasoning. This point was made at the very start of the thread and is made in every discussion on tunneling. Pro-tunnelers need to stop pretending that strawman arguments and ignoring nuance are valid defenses for toxic behavior.
And frankly, the constant personal attacks and backhanded comments like the one you just made only show that you are arguing out of pettiness and personal bias, not out of genuine concern for balance. If you are getting that worked up, maybe take a step back before continuing this discussion. Also (ima be petty here too), if the like to dislike ratio of our comments says anything…I am not the one that people would have an issue with.
You keep bringing up the same arguments over and over again that I, and several others have already addressed in this thread. Arguing for the sake of arguing does nothing for anyone. I suggest you take a step back. Take a deep breath. Reread the thread. And if you can think of new arguments and can approach them maturely…come on back to the discussion. Otherwise this is working you up and not accomplishing anything for anyone.
If I were to stop tunneling altogether tomorrow, go out of my way to never hook the same Survivor consecutively (I usually don't even keep track of Survivors' hook states), I guarantee you that Survivors wouldn't stop calling me a sweaty tryhard or baby killer or somesuch. They'd say I'm not allowed to play high-tier Killers, so I'd switch back to Knight. Then they'd say Knight is annoying to play against, so I switch to Wraith. Then they'd say my perks are stupid or I proxy camped too much, etc. etc. etc..
None of this is necessary; there will always be one more thing.
And if, at any point, playing with all those handicaps is finally too much for me, there'd be a whole lot of "gg ez" in the endgame chat.
The Survivor Rulebook for Killers can go to hell. It's a meme, and it should have died years ago. Stop trying to dictate how other people play.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007369#Comment_4007369
You keep trying to frame tunneling as “just another winning play,” but that ignores the unique impact it has on match health. Doing gens, using perks, or pulling off saves might frustrate the killer, but it does not remove them from the match. Tunneling removes survivors from the match entirely, sometimes within two minutes. That is not “just playing to win.” It is the one strategy that directly erases a player’s ability to participate. That is why it draws so much heat compared to anything survivors can do.
Nobody is asking killers to “play nice” or throw games for the sake of survivor feelings. What people are saying is that multiplayer games only survive when the enjoyment is shared. Survivors make up four of the five slots in every lobby. If the most efficient killer strategy also happens to be the one that consistently drives survivors away from the game, then yes, it is a problem worth calling out. Dismissing that as “subjective” is short-sighted when it threatens the very player base that keeps the game alive.
And your Dungeon Master comparison misses the point. Nobody is asking killers to be DMs or facilitators. Killers can win, killers can have fun, and killers can play aggressively without tunneling. What people are pushing back against is the idea that “anything goes as long as it is technically allowed.” By that logic, face-camping used to be fine, infinite loops used to be fine, and anything that was once in the game but later changed would still be beyond criticism. Yet Behaviour has adjusted those things because they damaged match health. Tunneling falls into the same category.
Finally, let’s flip your point about dignity and respect. Survivors are also human beings sitting behind their screens. If your “fun” relies on denying theirs, then you are not treating them as equals. You are treating them as disposable props for your ego. Respect goes both ways, and pretending tunneling is just normal competitive play is ignoring the massive imbalance of how it affects one side versus the other.
So no, tunneling is not the same as any other strategy. It is the most consistent generator of grievance, DCs, toxicity, and player loss. Calling that out is not asking killers to be “nice.” It is asking them to acknowledge that winning does not have to come at the expense of destroying the experience for everyone else.
"But you, on the other hand, seem to think you deserve a level of respect from Killers that you absolutely refuse to reciprocate"
That's rather presumptuous personal attack. When i do play survivor I also play with the intent to not be toxic and do things they hate. In fact when the killer is having a really rough match I let them sacrifice me at the end. I don't, however, respect people who use their free will to make a choice that undermines the enjoyment of quite literally but them. This isn't unique to me. This is a principle that has been the foundation of society since…well ever. Even Ancient Egyptian religion stated that to live with goodness will result in a light or balanced heart and be rewarded with the afterlife. While selfishness would result in a heavy heart and result in the cessation of your existence. Even people thousands of years ago understood this…so why is it so hard now?
"If the 1 ever wins out against the 4, four people's days have been ruined"
That single sentence shows exactly how far every counterpoint in this thread has flown over your head. I will redirect you once again to literally every comment I have made where I stress that this conversation is not about winning or losing. I have repeated it because you keep recycling the same point as if nobody has addressed it. I am not the only one who replied to you countering this point.
You seem incapable of grasping the idea that fun can be shared. You seem incapable of grasping that enjoyment in a multiplayer game does not have to be tied strictly to victory. People can lose and still have a good time if the match is engaging, balanced, and interactive. The fun of Dead by Daylight comes from the chases, the mind games, the escapes, the clutch saves, and the tension of trying to outplay the other side. Winning amplifies that, sure, but it is not the only source of enjoyment.
Tunneling strips away that dynamic by removing one person from the experience far too early. It turns what should be a tense back and forth into a lopsided stomp where one player is excluded and the others are left frustrated. That is why so many people describe tunneling as toxic, not because they cannot handle losing but because they are being denied the chance to even play.
If your entire worldview of the game boils down to “killer wins equals survivors lose, and survivors lose equals no fun,” then you are missing the fundamental design philosophy of asymmetrical multiplayer. The goal is not to make one side miserable so the other can feel powerful. The goal is to create matches where both sides are challenged and both sides have opportunities for enjoyment, even if only one technically wins.
If you want a Dungeon Master analogy. Imagine if the Dungeon Master only targeted one specific player at the start to kill of their character and didn't let them rejoin as a new character. So the player is just forced to watch everyone else play while they were robbed from the experience because of ONE persons pettiness. Or if they were able to rejoin, every time the Dungeon Master repeatedly targeted that one person, killing them off before they even get a chance to enjoy or integrate into the campaign. I am willing to bet the campaign would be wildly unpopular and would dissolve quickly.
Multi-player video games aren't for your sole sense of validation and ego. Any situation where more than one person is involved is not about a singular persons interest and satisfaction. Quite literally the point of communities and the foundation of society as a whole.
Your argument: "My enjoyment matters only. Winning is what matters. Fun is impossible without victory"
Everyone else's argument against you: "Everyone should have fun, even if each of us have to make sacrifices, that balance is important"
Imagine being in a relationship where your partner only ever cared about their own happiness. You would probably end it, because no healthy relationship can survive that kind of imbalance. The same principle applies across all relationships, whether romantic, platonic, or otherwise. Cooperation requires give and take. Partnership requires both sides to make sacrifices. If one person gives everything while the other refuses because “it is more optimal for me not to,” that is the definition of a toxic dynamic. The exact same thing can be applied to tunneling. The only arguments for tunneling boils down to selfishness. If you lack the self-governess to consciously avoid harmful behaviors…that is a serious problem even outside of video games.
If you really think tunneling is so bad for the health of the game, by all means, ask the devs to change the game. I'll be right there with you; I'd be happy to try and help brainstorm an anti-tunneling system that feels fair for both sides. I welcomed the anti-facecamp system when it first came out; if anything, I sometimes feel like they should have gone even further to discourage proxy camping and the like. I distinctly remember a match when I tried to use the anti-facecamp against a Blight that was proxy camping, chasing me right under the hook, and being disappointed when it failed.
But that's not what this is about, is it? No, it's not enough for you to simply advocate for practical solutions to problems in the game's design. You want to extract apologies from Killer players, you want to have power over them. If they give reasoning for why they played in a way that you don't like, it's always not good enough somehow. They have to grovel lower, give you more attention, give you more opportunity to farm clout off of their humility.
Yes, indeed, cooperation requires give and take, reciprocity. If you expect one person to give everything, play poorly on purpose purely to facilitate the other person's enjoyment, while the other refuses to do the same because the rules somehow don't apply to them- and in fact tries to paint themselves as the victim when they demand fair treatment- that is the definition of a toxic dynamic.
The exact same thing applies to tunneling. Survivors expect Killers to go easy on them despite refusing to go easy on Killers. If you lack the self-awareness to see how everything you say can be applied to you personally… I'm genuinely worried for anyone who has to deal with you in real life.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007288#Comment_4007288
For the billionth time, this isn’t about forcing killers to “play nice.”
It’s not about survivors being bad.
It’s not about being a nice killer
It’s not about crippling the killer role.
It’s not about babying survivors.
It. Is. About. Fun. And. Health.
You can absolutely dominate survivors. Go right ahead. I do it. Every killer does it. But there’s a way to do it without being toxic. There’s a way to win without singling out one person and making the game unplayable for them. No one will be mad if your domination is a reflection of your skill overwhelming them. They will blame MMR not you. Or just be genuinely impressed. At this point, it feels like you’re deliberately ignoring everyone’s actual argument.
The issue is simple: tunneling is toxic. That’s it. Stop twisting it into strawman excuses. Stop trying to change the topic. Killers can still win. You can still play competitively. You just don’t need to do it through tunneling. That’s not “playing nice,” that’s just not being a selfish, anti-social player.
Yes, the community has also asked for casual reinforcements, like a permanent 2v8 mode. But that’s another discussion. This thread is about tunneling. Not survivor toxicity. Not ranked vs. casual modes. Tunneling. Period. Tunneling and Casual game modes are not mutually exclusive. Tunnelers will still flock into casual modes to take advantage of the more relaxed gamers.
even in a strictly ranked mode you WILL get flamed. You would get flamed no matter one in a ranked mode. Study after study shows comp gamers have an increasingly high rate of toxicity especially relative to “just for fun” players. I mentioned a peer-reviewed psychological study in an earlier comment that supports this.And here’s the truth: tunneling is selfish. It ruins the match for four or five people at once. Think of it like five friends hanging out. Four of them are about everyone having fun, while one only cares about their own enjoyment. That one doesn’t get invited back. Social activities come with responsibility. If you keep acting anti-social, you can’t be shocked when people turn on you.
If you want to play a game without the community hating you, maybe it’s time to reflect. You can’t be selfish and then play victim when people react to your selfishness.
Plays in a way that generates hate and anger → “Why is everyone always mad at me?”
And then you drop quotes like “To survive under such circumstances requires learning not to listen to people who don’t have your best interests in mind.” Ironic, isn’t it? You wield that as your defense for apathy, when you yourself have no one’s best interest in mind but your own. You’ve grown a shell from being treated with the same indifference you dish out.
NOTE: I said anti-social a few times. For anyone reading this I’m not talking about the casual use of anti-social where someone is just super introverted. I’m referring to the clinical use of the word meaning a lack of empathy and a disregard for social cohesion/standards.And I say tunneling is not toxic anymore than doing anything else that makes the opposing team lose is. Saying tunneling is toxic is a cool subjective opinion, but over here in reality, I don't hold it against people for playing to win the game.
I never agreed to play "nice" with the Survivors before I queued up, nor did they agree to play "nice" with me, nor is it against the game's rules to play to win, so why should I fault them for using game mechanics as intended?
Dead by Daylight is a 4v1 game. If the 1 ever wins out against the 4, four people's days have been ruined. That's kinda unavoidable. But I've got two unfortunate truths for you: The first is that if the 1 never gets to have fun and instead has to facilitate everyone else's fun (Which is absolutely NOT the Killer's job, mind you; they're a Killer, not a Dungeon Master- your in-game success is measured by how many kills you get, not by how much fun the Survivors had), then nobody will want to play as the 1, and you have no game.
The second is that I know this is difficult for you to comprehend, but people who are different from you are, in fact, your equals, and are entitled to the same dignity, respect and kindness that you demand for yourself. I don't expect Survivors to gimp themselves solely so that I can have more fun playing Killer, and in return I expect the same treatment. But you, on the other hand, seem to think you deserve a level of respect from Killers that you absolutely refuse to reciprocate, and you seem to view being asked to earn other people's respect as a slap in the face.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006992#Comment_4006992
I’m not calling you selfish to provoke you. I’m calling you selfish because your stance is exactly that. And I doubt people are labeling you selfish for the reasons you assume. If your arguments here mirror how you behave outside this space, then it might be worth some honest reflection on your outlook and behavior. You may be misattributing the criticism. You think people criticize you for one reason, when it’s really another. But that is a whole different topic and one meant for a licensed therapist.
Back to the topic at hand.
Your argument, boiled down, is: “Tunneling is fine because I enjoy it, only my win matters, and everyone else can suck it up.”
Meanwhile, everyone else’s argument is: “Tunneling isn’t fine because it ruins group enjoyment and fosters toxicity. Videos games should be fun for everyone involved and tunneling destroys that.”
See the difference? Your reasoning revolves entirely around your own satisfaction. The satisfaction of one person is all that matters. The counterpoint takes into account the experience of the larger group. One view is self-serving. The other is community-minded.
So tell me how me advocating for a healthy mutually enjoyable for all 5 members of a game trial play style is selfish. But you only taking into consideration one player (you), is not selfish.
Explain to me why wanting to balance the game in a manner that doesn’t leave the lobby and the community as a whole in a state of hate and disarray, is a problem. But you supporting the behavior that causes so much strife is totally ok.
Video games are meant for fun. Multiplayer games are meant for mutually enjoyable experience. If you only care about you, what affects you, and not at all about the overall health of the game. You should not play multiplayer games. Go play a single player game and live out that power fantasy. You can be as “optimal” as you want there and won’t ruin the day of other gamers while you do it.
Here’s a little exercise for you: play a few rounds with friends, or even strangers. Pay attention to how much laughter there is, how people talk, and the overall mood. Try it two ways: once where you “play optimally” with nothing but your win in mind, and once where you play with the goal of mutual enjoyment. You’ll notice the difference. One style leaves people frustrated and quiet. The other leaves people laughing, positive, and actually having fun.
Every online survivor friend I’ve made came from matches where I played well as killer. I was entertaining, impressive, or just plain funny at times. Even when I dominated, the match stayed positive because the goal wasn’t only my satisfaction. Even when I let the final survivor live they refused to leave the match because they enjoyed the experience that much.
And honestly? I don’t know why I’m even spelling this out. You’ll probably brush it off or pretend it doesn’t apply. Empathy, perspective-taking, collaboration, social responsibility…all those skills that make someone fun to play with…just aren’t showing up here.
Plays selfishly…”why does everyone call me selfish. Am I selfish? No, it is the children who are wrong”.
Doesn’t play selfishly…”what a nice experience we’re all having”
Every day people tell me I should put other people's satisfaction before my own. They expect me to give up my dignity, my self-respect, my health, my personal life, my name, my identity, my body, and they just keep taking. You might find that hard to believe if you yourself are not marginalized, but I assure you that's not an exaggeration, merely a statement of fact. To survive under such circumstances requires learning not to listen to people who don't have your best interests in mind.
I'm happy to show kindness to those in need or those who are willing to build genuine bonds with myself and others around them, but this is not that. This is other people expecting me to put their fun before my own, people who have no interest in reciprocating and feel justified in treating me like an NPC boss to amuse themselves with rather than another person behind the screen who's doing their best to win.
I'm quite capable of kindness, but I am not your bootlick. If you want my respect, earn it.
And frankly, it sounds to me like we simply want different things out of DbD. There are quite a few Survivor players who are genuinely disappointed when the Killer purposefully plays nice, who wanted to test themselves against a Killer genuinely doing their best to win; that's where Comp DbD players come from.
So instead of pointing fingers at people who want something else out of the game, why don't you just start asking BHVR for a casual queue? You can play nice to your heart's content, and I can play to win without people yelling at me for using basic strategy. Everybody wins.
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@littlehoot said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006981#Comment_4006981
Yes, there is a chance that in a particular game I might be unable to do anything meaningful.
The problem is that this isn't a rarity. This is something that is happening with increasing frequency to a lot of survivor players. That they, because of the actions of the killer (incentivised by the devs decisions and implementation of mechanics), are essentially denied the ability to play at all.
I'm not asking for a perfect game, I'd just like to actually spend more of my time playing the game. Or not have people around me stop playing because they got the brunt of tunnelling too many times and decided 'if I'm not going to get to actually play anyway, might as well save the storage space on my PC/console'.
And I welcome the addition of anti-tunnel mechanics. Y'know… if they're actually implemented well.
At this point, this argument is mostly about bleep275 passing moral judgment against Killers who tunnel.
Which, in my view, falls flat when they give no such treatment to any of the things Survivors can do to make the experience of playing Killer miserable. I genuinely find it more annoying to be forced to stay the entire length of a game where I'm already really behind than to be tunneled out of the game early, because with the latter, I can very easily just queue into the next game.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006962#Comment_4006962
dude. Just reread my other posts. Already addressed all of this. Quite literally addressed the “can’t handle losing” thing in like every post. Take the time to reread. Really focus on it. Let it sink in. Then think about the consequences of selfish behavior. Probably a good exercise in general as it’s applicable to the real world too.
Mate, I'm non-binary. If you think calling me selfish simply for playing the game by the rules is going to move me, you've got another thing coming. Every day people call people like me selfish simply for demanding basic respect or to be treated as an equal.
You're the selfish one here, shaming others for not playing according to your arbitrary standards, despite the fact that it's a completely valid way to play the game.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006953#Comment_4006953
Because nothing a survivor does (short of cheats) can make a killer physically unable to play the game, the killer will always have agency.
I don't know why this simple statement is so hard to grasp. You can maybe not care, but at least accept it.
As I said, if that's what bothers you about tunneling, then at some point you have to recognize that Survivor will never realistically be what you want it to be.
Unless we're going to go so far as to fundamentally change the way downs and hooks work, it will always be possible for a Survivor to spend the overwhelming majority of their match unable to do anything meaningful.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006952#Comment_4006952
You keep framing this as “my subjective experience versus yours,” but tunneling is not just a matter of taste. It has measurable effects on match health and community health that go far beyond whether one person personally dislikes it.
Yes, BM is toxic. Nobody disputes that. But BM is just words and taunts at the end of the match. Tunneling actively removes people from the match itself. It is not comparable. BM is salt after the game; tunneling is ripping one person’s controller out of their hands two minutes into the match. Which do you think drives more disconnects, ragequits, and uninstalls?
And again, doing gens is not equivalent. Survivors doing gens does not erase the killer from the match. The killer still gets to play. Tunneling erases survivors entirely. That is why it is unique among “optimal strategies.” Survivors can push gens all they want, but the killer still plays until the exit gates. A survivor tunneled out has no match left to play. That is the difference you keep glossing over.
You also say fun is subjective. Sure, what we all find fun can vary. But there is a broader principle here: multiplayer games require mutual enjoyment to survive. If one strategy systematically causes mass frustration and drives away the larger player base, then it is not just “subjective dislike,” it is an existential problem for the game. Survivor already makes up 4/5 of every lobby. If enough survivors decide tunneling makes the game unplayable, queue times collapse and the game dies. That is not subjective. That is math.
Finally, dismissing player choice as irrelevant is weak. Yes, Behaviour created systems that incentivize tunneling, but players are still responsible for how they act within those systems. That is where self-governess comes in. You cannot hide behind “the system made me do it.” You make the decision every chase whether to lean into tunneling or not. Players who constantly choose the most destructive strategy are not innocent bystanders. They are part of the reason the community is in this state.
So no, tunneling is not “just another optimal strategy” or “just a subjective annoyance.” It is the most consistent generator of anger, disconnects, and survivor attrition in the game. If the goal is to keep DBD alive, then both system changes and player responsibility are needed. Anything less is just an excuse to keep playing selfishly at the expense of everyone else’s enjoyment.
You want evidence that tunneling is a problem? Just scroll through the forums and you will find thread after thread of people complaining about it. You will find thread after thread of people saying theyre leaving because of it.
I honestly don’t know how to make this point any clearer. I have said it countless times, yet people either ignore it, pretend it was never said, or prove they have no grasp of basic interpersonal emotional intelligence. The reality is simple: tunneling is one of the biggest sources of grievance, anger, toxicity, and player loss in this game.
Multiplayer games are built on mutual enjoyment. If, being generous, 30 percent of the community enjoys tunneling but the other 70 percent despise it, then balance should reflect that majority. The goal should be to create an environment where the larger share of players can enjoy the game, not where the enjoyment of a minority comes at the direct expense of everyone else.
It is like being at a house party where nine out of ten people want cheese pizza, and one person asks for anchovies. The anchovy guy would still be perfectly fine with cheese. So what do you order? You get the pizza that satisfies the majority. You do not pick the one option that will ruin the meal for almost everyone just because one person insists it is “technically valid.”
You know, Dead by Daylight is one of the only games I've played where people will consistently try to paint you as the bad guy simply for using an optimal strategy.
If you can't handle losing, or in this case, losing early and not feeling like you had much of a chance to do anything, then maybe playing Survivor just isn't for you. That isn't a judgment, merely a suggestion. It's a teamwork-dependent role where you can easily be deprived of all agency, and that's how it will remain.
Even if we put an end to tunneling once and for all, you're still going to have games where the Survivors lose early after the Killer snowballs, or games where you're just left to die on hook because your teammates screw up or the Killer proxy camps, or games where you loop the Killer for a full 10 minutes but die anyway because your teammates don't know how to do gens, or they leave you on hook after the exit gates are open, or the Killer has Rancor, or some nonsense like that.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006925#Comment_4006925
Would you find that argument persuasive if I said something like that about Survivors?
What actions can survivors perform that is their equivalent of tunneling?
Doing gens. Not screwing around with totems or other side objectives, just doing your main objective as efficiently and effectively as possible. Because in case you've forgotten, the Killer's objective is to kill the Survivors, and tunneling is generally a very effective way to accomplish that; once one Survivor is out of the game, the rest are in a greatly weakened position and can be dispatched much more easily.
@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006925#Comment_4006925
Its not about not playing in a way I dont like…its about promoting a healthy mutually enjoyable experience for everyone. As I have stated a multitude of times. You can have fun as killer without tunneling. You cannot have fun as survivor by being tunneled. What people are saying is “don’t deliberately play in a way that destroys the foundation of the match.” There is a difference. Survivors doing gens, using perks, or pulling off saves might frustrate a killer, but it does not erase them from the match. Tunneling does. That is why it is not just another asymmetric annoyance.
Yes, incentives and systems push killers toward tunneling, and yes, Behaviour absolutely needs to fix that. But pretending player choice doesn’t matter is letting people off the hook for knowingly making matches miserable. The system creates the pressure, but individuals decide whether to lean into it or not. Both can be true at the same time: the devs deserve blame for design failures, and players deserve blame for choosing ego-driven play that ruins the experience for others. you are not absolved from responsibility because there is someone with more influence than you. There's a term for this…its called "self-governess".
And telling survivors “just play killer if you don’t like being tunneled” is a non-argument. That is like saying if you hate cheaters, just play single-player games. It dodges the issue instead of addressing it. Survivors should not have to switch roles just to avoid being removed from the match in two minutes. I would also like to mention that I AM a killer main, but I would like to play survivor more because after 3-3.5k hours of killer…I want something fresh. Unfortunately all of my friends quit survivor due to tunneling and I cannot stomach it anymore…due to tunneling. And a third point against your "just dont play survivor" argument is….queue times. Remember when you said the game would die if killers left? Well the game would also die if survivors left. Take a moment and imagine what would happen if all survivors who are tired of tunneling just didn't play survivor. Survivor is already 4/5 of a lobby my guy.
If the goal is “productive solutions,” then we have to acknowledge reality. Tunneling is the biggest source of toxicity in this community. Saying “it will always happen so stop complaining” is not a solution, it is surrender. The only way forward is both: systems that reduce the incentive to tunnel, and a player culture that accepts you can win and have fun without leaning on the most destructive strategy in the game.
I'm sorry, but fun is subjective. There's lots of things I hate more than tunneling, even when playing Survivor; I'm genuinely more upset by a Killer who chooses to BM and be a jerk in the endgame chat than a Killer who plays to win in the scummiest ways possible.
So unless you've got some way to prove that your subjective experience of DbD is objectively correct, it's simply your word against mine when it comes to which optimal strategies are or aren't "problematic" or worthy of condemnation.
And I disagree; the biggest source of toxicity in this game is BM. Because there are plenty of incentives and rewards to use optimal strategies that might upset the other side, but there's absolutely no material benefit to taunting your opponents other than upsetting them. There's no real excuse for it.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006852#Comment_4006852
And it went over your head again. So let me say it very very clearly…again.
YOU CAN PLAY TO WIN. JUST DONT DO IT IN A PROBLEMATIC MANNER.
You keep trying to lump tunneling in with “every other strategy survivors dislike,” but the difference is obvious. Survivors doing gens, using flashlights, or bringing perks does not erase a killer from the match. You still get to play. When a killer tunnels, the survivor is gone in two minutes and has no game left. That is not the same thing.
Yes, losing as killer can feel bad. Watching gens fly or getting saved after a long chase is frustrating. But those things still keep both sides playing. Tunneling is unique because it directly removes one side’s ability to participate. That is why it generates so much anger and toxicity compared to anything survivors can do.
You asked if you should avoid perks or strong killers just because survivors do not like them. No one is saying that. What people are saying is that tunneling is different because it undermines the foundation of the match. The fun of DBD comes from the back-and-forth, the cat-and-mouse tension. The moment a killer hard focuses one survivor out, that shared experience collapses.
And yes, players naturally chase winning strategies. But this is not chess or poker where both sides can sit through the whole game win or lose. This is an asymmetrical multiplayer title where participation itself is part of the reward. If the “winning” play is also the one most guaranteed to make others quit the game entirely, then it is a design issue and a player choice issue.
Nobody is saying killers should throw or play poorly to spare survivors’ feelings. What we are saying is that there is a difference between playing to win and playing in a way that drives the other half of the playerbase out of the match and out of the community. That is why tunneling is not just “another optimal strategy.” It is the single most destructive one, and pretending it is the same as survivors doing gens is ignoring that fundamental reality.
so let me say it again. Because for whatever reason no matter how many times we say it. yall don't grasp it.
The issue isn't with playing to win. The issue is a specific playstyle that targets one player and prevetns them from being able to play at all. I don't tunnel. I dont camp. I win. And i do it without tunneling or falling within the realm of that childish example of "oh i guess we just need to need to baby and not actually play killer". like no dude. Just don't play in a problematic way such as tunneling. Winning isn't problematic. Trying to win isn't problematic. Preventing a dude from playing the game (tunneling) because you are desperate to win…is problematic.
"Chastising people for playing to win a game is like chastising a chef for cooking food to perfection"
In this case…it isn't like that at all. You see a chef cooks food so the other people can enjoy it. The tunneling equivalent of a chef would be instantly firing a co-worker because you're worried their dish would be better than yours.
That chef metaphor does not work here. Cooking food to perfection does not ruin anyone else’s meal. In fact, everyone benefits. But tunneling in DBD is not like making a flawless dish. It is more like a chef deliberately serving one guest their full meal while taking another guest’s plate away halfway through. One person is satisfied, the other leaves the table hungry.
That is why your comparison falls apart. Winning strategies in most games still allow everyone to keep participating until the end. Tunneling is different because it cuts people out of the experience entirely. It is not about “playing perfectly,” it is about knowingly removing another player’s ability to even play.
So no, calling out tunneling is not the same as “chastising a chef for cooking food to perfection.” It is pointing out that the chef is serving a meal in a way that leaves half the table excluded.
I'm sorry, but just telling the other side in an asymmetric game "Don't play in a way that I don't like" just isn't gonna fly.
Would you find that argument persuasive if I said something like that about Survivors? I mean, obviously not, or the conversation wouldn't have gotten to this point.
There's a whole tangled mess of incentives and rewards for Killers to tunnel, and until you deal with that, tunneling isn't going to stop anytime soon. You can scream at Killers until the end of time that they shouldn't tunnel, but I'd bet my life on it that plenty of them will keep tunneling anyway so long as the game allows it.
The sooner you accept that, the better; the sooner we can move the conversation in a productive direction and embrace solutions that actually work.
Blame the individual if you want a handful of rare exceptions, blame the system if you want results.
Or in the meantime, if you really hate tunneling that much, why don't you just main Killer? There's plenty of things to dislike about playing Killer, but getting tunneled most certainly isn't one of them.
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Yeah, I think Killers should be able to just give Survivors the win after the game is effectively finished; sure, sometimes the Killer can still bring it back by camping a hook, but far too often the only reason the game hasn't ended yet is because Survivors won't just leave.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006793#Comment_4006793
You keep circling back to the idea that “optimal strategy” automatically excuses tunneling, but that line of thinking falls apart in a multiplayer game designed around mutual enjoyment.
First, nobody is saying killers do not deserve to have fun. Of course they do. But tunneling is not the only way to win. It is simply the most miserable way for survivors to experience the game. Survivors cannot enjoy the match when they are tunneled out two minutes in. If your fun requires denying another person’s ability to participate, then it is not “just an optimal strategy,” it is toxic behavior. Multiplayer games cannot survive long term if the “optimal” strategy is also the one most guaranteed to drive players away.
Second, blaming the devs does not absolve players. Yes, Behaviour deserves criticism for walking back changes and failing to address tunneling. But players also have free will. You choose how to play. You can chase someone else, you can spread pressure, you can make decisions that still allow the game to breathe. Hiding behind “well the devs made it possible, so I’ll abuse it” is just ego masking as logic.
Third, your survivor comparison does not hold. Survivors doing gens, saving teammates, bodyblocking, or bringing items are not equivalent to tunneling. They may be annoying but it doesn't remove you from the game. Survivors doing gens does not remove the killer from the game. Survivors flashlight saving does not delete you from the match two minutes in. Tunneling does. That is the fundamental difference. Survivors can use their tools and killers can still play. When killers tunnel, survivors cannot.
Fourth, your point about killers “sometimes having no choice but to tunnel” is overstated. Yes, sometimes the person you find happens to be the last hooked survivor. That is not what people mean when they criticize tunneling. The problem is killers making a deliberate and sustained choice to hard focus one survivor out of the game as fast as possible. That is not about necessity. It is about ego and efficiency at the cost of enjoyment.
And finally, you keep framing survivors as wanting killers to be NPC bosses. Nobody is saying that. What is being said is simple: killers can win, killers can have fun, killers can play their role effectively without tunneling. The problem is not killers existing as opponents. The problem is when killers lean on the one strategy that strips away the shared experience the game is built on.
So yes, the devs should be fixing tunneling, but let’s be real: players who knowingly abuse tunneling are not innocent bystanders. They are making a conscious choice to play in a way that causes anger, disconnections, toxicity, and uninstalls. That is why tunneling is not just an “optimal strategy.” It is the single biggest source of community frustration.
Dead by Daylight thrives when both sides get to participate. If your enjoyment relies solely on shutting down someone else’s, then it is not “optimal.” It is selfish. That is exactly why tunneling remains the most destructive force in this game. I cannot think of a single person who stopped playing this game because the killer was playing fair and not tunneling. I can however give you about a dozen IRL people I know who blacklisted this game because of this behavior. I can point you to these very forums where people are leaving because of tunneling. You say the game will die because killers will leave. Except the evidence is that its survivors who are leaving in mass, not killers. So choose how the game will die. A death fueled by hyper-competitive selfish "optimal" gamers, or one because those same players are no longer allowed to poison this community. Personally id rather a slow one where i can play the game and enjoy it than the current state where people cant even stomach the idea of playing.
Do you hear me complaining when Survivors use optimal strategies? Because I can tell you right now, nothing feels worse as Killer than watching gens fly by and feeling powerless to do anything about it. Or just not being able to catch anyone in chase. Or getting flashlight/pallet/wiggle saved after a long chase- I played my heart out to earn that down, only for it to amount to nothing.
And if I'm doing badly as Killer, I don't just die and move on to the next game; I have to keep playing the match until the very end if I don't want a DC penalty, keep watching the game slip further and further from my grasp. I'm essentially at the Survivors' mercy until the last one finally leaves.
Should I also intentionally run chases badly because Survivors don't like being downed? Should I not take free hits or use Exposed perks because Survivors find it unfun for chases to be over too quickly? Should I not use gen-control perks because Survivors find it annoying when they're blocked from doing their main objective? Should I not use Hex perks because Survivors find it annoying to find and cleanse them? Should I not play strong Killers because their powers let them ignore key chase mechanics? Should I not play Killers with side objectives because those can annoy Survivors?
At some point, we have to acknowledge that in virtually any game, players will naturally gravitate towards winning strategies. It's intrinsic to how games work; winning is essentially the game's way of telling you that you played correctly, that you played better than your opponent and deserve to be recognized for it. Chastising people for playing to win a game is like chastising a chef for cooking food to perfection. And (In tabletop games at least) if you don't like a particular strategy, you don't just point fingers at the player who used it; you change the rules to make the game more fun.
Name one player-versus-player game where people don't play to win; I'll wait.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006554#Comment_4006554
You know what gets me about you pro-tunnelers? You argue as if tunneling is the only way to win, as if the only way to enjoy the game is by forcing a victory.
I’ve been playing since 2016/2017, almost entirely as killer, racking up around 3 to 3.5k hours before even touching survivor. And in all that time, not once have I tunneled. Not once have I camped. And guess what? I’ve still won the vast majority of my games.
Tunneling is not a fundamental. It is a shortcut. A crutch for players who lack the skill, patience, or creativity to win otherwise. You frame it like it is some essential mechanic, but really it is selfishness disguised as strategy.
Think about it. In any community, certain behaviors are called out because they drag down the experience for everyone else. Cutting in line at a grocery store is not illegal, but most people avoid doing it even though it is technically “optimal.” Why? Because it is bad behavior. Because it poisons the environment for everyone.
That is exactly what tunneling does in Dead by Daylight. It does not just create frustration; it breeds toxicity. It is the embodiment of toxicity in this game. And if your default playstyle regularly causes anger and resentment, that should be a sign you are contributing to the problem.
And no, survivors are not mad simply because they lose. This game is designed so survivors lose often. They are mad because tunneling strips away mutual enjoyment, which is the core of multiplayer gaming. You can win without tunneling. You can win while still allowing everyone to feel like they played. That is sportsmanship 101, something most of us are taught in kindergarten: winning is not everything.
So tunnelers have a choice:
A) Win at the cost of the community, feeding only your own shallow dopamine hit.
B) Still win, but in a way that supports mutual enjoyment and strengthens the community.
If you choose A, then either you are extremely selfish or you have tied your self-worth to constant dopamine from winning. In that case, therapy can help. Cognitive behavioral therapy in particular is a good start because it challenges the belief that losing means you are worthless. There are healthier ways to build self-esteem: creating art, hiking, exercising, or finding non-competitive skills and hobbies that reward progress rather than constant victory.
And this is not just opinion. A growing body of research links hyper-competitiveness with worse mental health, poorer relationships, and more toxic communities. One peer-reviewed study by Beres et al. (2021), titled “Don’t You Know That You’re Toxic: Normalization of Toxicity in Online Gaming”, shows a clear connection between competitive gamers, moral disengagement, and antisocial behavior. The study found that players with these traits are far more likely to justify or rationalize toxic playstyles.
The purpose of video games is to have fun. Tunneling eliminates that possibility for everyone except the one selfish player who does it. And in real life, when someone only ever looks out for their own benefit, they usually are not very well liked or tolerated.
”the same can be said for other strategies”….those don’t nearly cause as much resentment and hate as tunneling. 🙄I don't even personally tunnel all that much; I just don't decry people who do, because frequently enough, it's the optimal strategy. Players should never be faulted for using optimal strategies; if the optimal strategy is not fun to play against, that's on the developers, not the players. But the players themselves should not have to play with their opponents' fun in mind. The Survivor's Rulebook for Killers essentially shouldn't exist. I think the only thing that should be unacceptable is BMing, taking the game hostage, or stuff that's so broken it makes the game literally unwinnable (e.g. Infinites in early DbD).
By that same token, I don't fault survivors for doing gens, flashlight saving, pallet saving, stealthing, bodyblocking, prerunning, bringing powerful items/perks, or any other viable/optimal strategy, apart from pure stalling.
If it's a winning play and not designed purely to annoy the other side or keep the game going forever, it's fair game. And if you find it unfun, blame the developers, not the players.
So, do I think tunneling should be addressed? Yeah, sure. But there needs to be appropriate compensation given to Killers in exchange; the PTB's tunneling changes were too heavy-handed and too easy for Survivors to use aggressively, especially in combination with the anti-slugging changes. Things would have gotten a LOT worse for Killer players if the changes were allowed to make it to live, especially those who played low-tier Killers.
Frequently enough, the Killer simply has no logical option but to tunnel somebody; sometimes they can't find anyone other than the last survivor they hooked, sometimes the last survivor they hooked just shows up out in the open, using the anti-tunnel mechanics as a crutch; sometimes you're playing a Killer with little to no mobility and you need to chase the first Survivor you find, even if it's the last Survivor you hooked; and usually, the value of getting a Survivor out of the game as quickly as possible simply outweighs the value of getting a fresh hook.
And in case you've forgotten, there is in fact another human being behind the screen playing as Killer, and their fun is important too. Killers can't just be treated like an NPC boss for Survivors to defeat; if they are, then eventually DbD will wind up like VHS where nobody wants to play Killer and the game dies.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000528#Comment_4000528
if you NEED to tunnel then you are playing out of your skillset and playing against people better than you. That is going to happen. You are going to lose at some point. Yall need to except the loss and allow mmr (which noone can see, so ego wont be harmed), to drop to a level where your natural skillset is viable. Thats what mmr is for, pairing players of similar skill against each other. By tunneling for that desperate cheese method of a win, you are artificially inflating your mmr which forces you to continue to tunnel. An actual self-fulfilling prophecy. The comp kid desperation for a win is the only thing keep the myth "tunneling is necessary" alive.
Playing Killer optimally isn't a "cheese strategy". When you go into comp DbD, camping, tunneling and slugging are all expected, and if the Survivors can't deal with it, well… too bad.
A cheese strategy would be a strategy that wrecks bad players but usually fails against good players, which tunneling isn't.
Now, sure, tunneling can lead you to win games you'd otherwise lose, but the same can be said for any good Killer strategy. And it can lead you to neglect Killer fundamentals or neglect other aspects of Killer strategy, but focusing only on getting better at chases and neglecting Killer macro, or focusing only on defending generators and neglecting chase, can have a similar effect.
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I play to win, broadly speaking (Though I don't play S-tiers and I tend to avoid camping or tunneling unless there's no other logical option), but I never rub it in people's faces. Yet I still regularly get treated like dirt by Survivors, naturally.
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@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005819#Comment_4005819
Right so what proof do I need to give you? How many games do I need to record before I have a point? Ignoring the fact that would be Anecdotal Evidence at best why do you think you are important enough for me to go through so much effort? You are literally just some guy.
Oh, I don't know, how about your last 10-30 Trapper games? You claimed that anyone who can't get at least 2 kills a game- as a low-tier Killer, without tunneling- is simply having a skill issue.
And yes, it's simply anecdotal evidence, but surely at least you personally would be able to meet the same standards you set for everyone else before you made sweeping generalizations about all Killer players, right?
Or are you just a Survivor sockpuppet account talking ######### because you're mad you don't escape every game?
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@Foggyguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005699#Comment_4005699
Haha if I was insulting you then it'd be obvious. I'm genuinely asking how it's possible to not get at least two kills during a game. Like you are defending tunneling surely you can at least get one kill during five gens and then secure one kill at endgame? How is it possible not to do that?
Don't change the subject. I've listened to you go on and on about how anyone who can't get at least two kills a game is bad, yet you always come up short when I ask you to show proof of your claims. Why? Could it be that there isn't any evidence for your positions?