Monlyth
Monlyth
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3581537#Comment_3581537
Yes and no. I'd rather take "I can play against this killer as long as they don't bring busted add-ons" over "I can't play against this killer at all". Especially when we know he has add-on changes planned.
Also like I said, the Blights where I'm at are just mid and pretty manageable. You should only really be struggling a ton against the average Blight if you're on the worse side.
Getting better against Blight isn't going to shoot you into high MMR, that's just as you said "a couple games". You can definitely get better against him without raising your general MMR much. Unless I'm an anomaly for some reason.
Again, what's supposed to follow is that getting better will help you in some way, and it doesn't. Blight scales extremely well with player skill by your own admission, so any tricks you learn to beat him with are quickly tempered by Blights who've learned how to beat you in chase anyway.
Your own extremely specific experience with Blight is not the norm, and expecting everyone to match your exact skill level, never getting better, is quite unreasonable.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3581257#Comment_3581257
That's the majority opinion for her power with good players, not for the average skill level. Like I've said multiple times. People generally don't talk about tier list for players who aren't good at the game or the average persons level. If they do they usually make it a point to say its for low level games or w.e. That's why if anyone says "Wraith is OP, Freddy is OP, Pinhead is OP, Dredge is OP" the responses are usually "no they're not" despite them actually being dummy strong against the average player and they're not S tier in tier list. They're usually not even A tier. Average and low skill level games are not the skill level people generally decide how strong a character preforms.
Also idk where you're hearing the common sentiment is that Nurse is easy and forgiving to play and learn, they're regarded as one of if not the hardest killer in the game by so much and so many I'm tired of hearing about it. The other killers usually fighting for that spot are Blight, Artist, and Billy afaik. Basically saying "once you get really good at the hard thing it's not that hard anymore" doesn't change that and can apply to pretty much anything. Yeah nothing is hard once you get good at it, but getting good at it is what makes it hard.
If Nurse was easy we'd be seeing her everywhere not just in high MMR. Like when Spirit was busted she was everywhere because she was easy af to play. Same with Freddy when he was busted.
As I hear it, Blight is also in a similar situation where he mainly exist in High MMR. Personally I haven't seen Nurse or Blight in over a month, and I know I'm not in top MMR. Above average maybe, but not top. So that lines up with my experience. For the record when I do see Blights, they're usually not that hard to counterplay for me personally (my team is another story). I doubt I'm a god gamer against Blight despite not being in top MMR or facing him much, its much more likely that the average Blight is just mid and the average player (such as my teammates) are just subpar. As I've been saying.
I already explained that good =/= comp level. Those are 2 different bars. The comp level games are the ones that are unreasonable levels where at that point its not worth really considering. Just getting "good" is not unreasonable at all. Might not be the average but its not hard to achieve if you actually try.
I have been sticking to my argument you just aren't understanding or refusing to listen, intentionally or not.
Okay, getting "good" is not unreasonable at all. Sure, I suppose so.
Just one small problem: Getting good doesn't solve a thing if your problem is with Blight. In the short term, it might win you a couple games, but in the long term, it'll make your problem worse, because you'll be running into better Blights, and there'll be more of them.
With that in mind, if you really can't stand Blight, ultimately the only winning move is not to play. Disconnect or give up at the first sight of him; it'll even lower your MMR so you'll run into him less in the future. Which is one of many reasons we generally base tier lists around the MMR softcap.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3580931#Comment_3580931
What source do you realistically want? The only "source" I can really give is the data the devs released where Nurse was at the bottom of the kill rate and Blight was mid for the overall game. Nurse is always at the bottom of the kill rates whenever they release data for the average player or overall game.
If you have a reliable source that says that most of the player of the game are good at it I would love to see it as well.
Besides that all I can only give you is the common sentiment I've been hearing for the past 5 years since I've started playing: Nurse is bad unless you put in a lot of practice with her, an average player won't cut it. Blights been out for less time but I've heard pretty much the same for him: Blight is pretty ok baseline, but you need to put in a lot of practice to make him strong.
Sure you can fall back on M1 gameplay, but M1 gameplay is garbage against any decent survivors. Which is also common knowledge. Mostly because of map/loop design.
As for tier list, I'm just stating that they are not for the group you're trying to use them for. They're still valid, just not for the majority of the playerbase. Otherwise Nurse would have been nerfed way down and Trapper + Myers would have been significantly buffed. The balance changes we get/got would be completely different if those tier list were accurate for the average player. Those list are made for good-great players, which is not the majority as far as I have seen and can tell.
Again, if you have a reliable source that says that most of the player of the game are good at it I would love to see it.
As I see it, if the reliable source data we do have is saying that killers like Sadako, Dredge, Freddy, Pig, and Pinhead are stomping, and we know that those killers are only good against subpar players, meanwhile Killers that are much stronger but require skill are performing worse, then it makes more sense that its because most players are subpar.
If the tier list being made for good players by good players are not reflecting the actual majority game results, then it makes more sense it's because most players are subpar.
If the vast majority of random teammates are really bad then it makes more sense that it's because the majority of players are subpar.
I just don't see any evidence for that not being the case.
As for the last argument, as stated before once you get better, Blights basekit is fine and certain add-ons are fine. He's still good but not ridiculous. But there's certain other add-ons that take him over the top that should be toned down. Outside of that you can counterplay him; him running those add-ons is not a given every game.
Furthermore again, you have to pick who you're balancing for. If you want to balance for good players then ~85-90% of the killer roster needs buffs and we can nerf Nurse and nerf Blights add-ons. If it's for the average player then Nurse is the worst killer in the game and we should be nerfing Sadako, Pig, Pinhead, and ect. and Blights just Mid. If his add-ons are a problem even in the average range then yeah nerf them too.
Which if that's what you want to do then fine, just keep it consistent. Not "balance killer for the good players, balance survivor for the bad-average ones".
If you want to disagree with the majority opinion, at least as far as I have seen it, you can do that as well. There's things I know I disagree with that the majority believes as well. Maybe not in this case, but in others.
The majority opinion on Nurse and Blight is that they're top-tier; every time I've seen a polling-based tier list, they sit firmly at the top, and the consensus is that that's unlikely to ever change until they receive nerfs. The consensus on Nurse is that she's likely to lose several games at least when you're starting out with her, but is actually quite easy and forgiving once you've learned the basics of how to blink where you want to blink. Blight is rated as having mechanics that feel slightly more "fair", but regardless, his power is disgusting and can easily beat Survivors of any skill level.
The most recent BHVR stats are over a year old, and didn't count DCs as kills, so the true killrate for killers like Nurse and Blight is likely much higher than it appears on that stats page.
So, let me get this straight: Blight is "fine" at average skill level, and players who have a problem with him just need to get good, but players who actually do get good at the game are now playing at a skill level where their opinions are no longer relevant to balance? Again, that's called a double bind. No matter what a Survivor does, if they have a problem with Blight, there's always a reason for why you don't have to listen to them. The way you resolve a double bind is simple: Pick one argument and stick with it. Should Survivors get good if they have a problem with Blight, or shouldn't they?
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3580873#Comment_3580873
You're leaving out the part that an average killer is also behind the wheel, which drastically reduces their performance.
Pro players and content creators aren't tier listing for "standard play" they're listing for games with at least decent-good players. As far as I've seen at least.
Nightlight also has Skull Merchant, Sadako, Freddy, Plague, and Wraith above both of them. Pinhead is still over Nurse and Trapper is right under her. Huntress is also almost the worst killer in the game and Trapper is almost Nurse strong on there apparently. So If you want to use that we should be nerfing killers like Freddy, who most people put in bottom tier, and Wraith. We really shouldn't be using massively generalized unnuanced data for balancing. Much less self reporting ones like Nightlight.
Getting to a level where you can roll the majority of teams is too much for the majority of the player base. I really think you're underestimating just how low skill level the "average" game/gamer is.
Also "top 10" with the current roster is about 1/3rd of the killers. Not saying much with that.
"Pub stomper" characters have the highest killrates on Nightlight, true. But generally speaking, strong Killers stay strong and weak Killers stay weak regardless of the overall skill level. Especially a Killer like Blight who can always fall back on M1 gameplay.
You keep claiming that the "average" game is so low skill that Blight and Nurse go from S-tier to mid-tier to downright weak. Why don't you back it up with a source? You've dismissed tier lists, you've dismissed NightLight, so unless you've got something else, all that leaves is your word against mine. And to no one's surprise (Hopefully), I don't find that very convincing.
Besides, there's still one glaring issue with your whole argument of "get good"... what is a Survivor supposed to do when they actually do get good and hit the MMR softcap? If anything, hitting the MMR cap will make them run into Nurse/Blight and lose to them even more. By your own admission, Nurse and Blight get stronger the higher the overall skill level is in a match.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3580586#Comment_3580586
and I said "good at the game" not "reach the skill cap".
Idk what you want. You don't want to balance around average players, since by that stance Nurse need buffs and Blight is just mid. But you also think asking survivors to get good is too much.
It just sound like you want to balance around good killers but average survivors, which is a double standard.
"Nurse needs buffs and Blight is mid against average players" is a hot take if I've ever seen one. Because I don't see any evidence for it. Both are in the top 10 killrates on NightLight, and are consistently rated as S-tier on pro players' tier lists even for standard play.
Their killrates are also likely to be deflated in BHVR's September 2022 stats, since disconnects didn't count as a kill.
As soon as you've learned the basics of playing them, there's not much that can beat you with any level of consistency.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3580568#Comment_3580568
You just described being a good player lol. Idk how you can argue having to master the killer isn't being good at the killer.
Its not just about the killer either, it's also with the framework that the survivors know what they're doing and also mastered the fundamentals of playing against the killer. Which most don't.
I'm not sure if by "standard" you mean "average", but the average player is not good at the game. If you want to balance around the average, then I'm not going to say you're wrong, but that would mean we need to buff Nurse and nerf Sadako.
I said "master the fundamentals", not "reach the skill cap". Unless you think we should balance around baby Nurses who need 20 blinks to land a hit?
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3580533#Comment_3580533
Last I checked all those tier list are considering players who are actually good at the game on both sides hence why killers like Pinhead and Sadako are low-mid tiers despite us knowing that against the average survivor they stomp really hard and Nurse in S despite being weak in the average players hands.
General consensus afaik is average Blight is mid-decent, but good blights are very strong. Hence why he's considered a killer whose pretty hard to play, again, similar to Nurse. If the average player was strong with him that wouldn't be the case. In both cases add-ons shoot Blight overboard.
A tier list for the average level of play would look very different.
No, the tier lists I've seen were for standard gameplay, simply assuming the Killer has mastered the fundamentals of playing their character.
And what makes Blight particularly nasty is that unlike Killers such as Sadako and Pinhead, he doesn't simply fall apart against Survivor teams who have learned what counterplay he has and know what they're doing.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3579772#Comment_3579772
The survivors are also heavily nerfed, its not like its just Blight.
Regardless, get better =/= get to comp level. Those are 2 different bars. That's like saying "get some exercise" means "become a professional athlete".
I think you're confusing "get better at the counterplay" and "get to comp level". You don't need to be comp level to compete with the Blights you're facing in pubs. Comp is too far, but you can still be "good" and at that level he's manageable outside of certain add-ons.
If you're matching against good killers who are good Blight you also need to be good at survivor and good at facing Blight to compete. That's not unreasonable. If you're not good at one or the other than IMO the correct advice would be to get better before complaining. Well, if you actually want to be taken seriously at least.
Good survivors who complain about it do have a valid agreed upon opinion: "some of the add-ons are too much" like I said before. It's not a bind at all otherwise the mentioned survivor criticism would have not been brought up and agreed with. I'm not sure where you got "he's not a problem" from when it was stated "his add-ons can be/are dumb". That's a problem right there.
If you want to talk about average survivors you need to use average killers, where Blight doesn't seem to be on the too strong side as far as common sentiment goes. Average skill isn't enough for him to become a big problem. Seems to be a middle to upper middle of the pact killer or so.
If you want to talk about good blights you need to talk about good survivors, where he's agreed on being fine outside of select add-ons.
Perhaps you could introduce me to these "average Survivors" you keep talking about? Last I checked, the consensus is that Blight is S-tier, disgustingly powerful, and consistently makes mincemeat of Survivors at every skill level. And that's been my experience as well; when I go up against Blight, I have no illusions that I, or anyone else, is likely to make it out alive. He interrupts Survivors and gets downs quickly and easily, far too quickly for the average Survivor team to keep up with.
And functionally, "Some of the addons are too much" is perfectly in line with that, because those addons are common and pervasive in pub games, for obvious reasons.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3579742#Comment_3579742
I don't think that's what's being said.
Per their back and forth, Blight both slaps and gets slapped in comp, so by that example they would be balanced I suppose.
However we really shouldn't be bringing comp into the equation when talking about general game balance. Yeah sure you're not going to become a comp survivor (most likely at least) but you're also not facing comp Blights.
You just need to get better against an average Blight, not a comp one, which is a big difference. Especially with a character who has an above average to high skill curve. They get exponentially worse the closer to average you get. Such as Nurse's notoriously low kill rate despite her potential strength.
If we did go off comp, we'd need massive nerfs to survivors, especially considering the normal game isn't restricting survivor perks like comp does.
That being said, the majority sentiment seems to be that Blight's add-ons can be/are dumb, but the basekit is probably fine.
Blight gets slapped in comp when he's nerfed heavily by the rules- not allowed to bring any of his strongest addons or perks. One of the most intricate things about competitive DbD is often the ban list, specifically trying to create a balanced matchup for killers like Blight.
The problem with your logic is that it's a double bind- no matter what the Survivors do, Blight is never the problem. If Survivors don't get good, it's a skill issue so their opinions don't matter. If Survivors do get good, their experiences aren't representative of the playerbase at large so their opinions also don't matter.
By your logic, there is no scenario where a Survivor who complains about Blight has a valid opinion worth listening to. And why should anyone listen to you if you're just making up rules so that nobody who disagrees with you can have a valid opinion?
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3579121#Comment_3579121
Blight routinely gets slapped by comp-level survivors as well. What is your point? If you wanna bring comp into this, then by comp standards, survivors should be nerfed into the ground.
Let’s not use comp to argue balance for the masses. It makes no sense.
So when a player loses to Blight, it's a skill issue and they need to git gud.
But when a player actually gets gud, suddenly their skill level is high enough that their Blight matches are irrelevant to the conversation?
How convenient that no matter what players do, there's always a reason for why Blight can't possibly be the problem.
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@averagemikaelamain said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/PO6K0Z7RTYTK/waiterwaiter.jpg
Singularity has received numerous buffs,is a very strong killer,can rival Skull Merchant's chess capacity and is miserable to face already. He's in a fine spot and is no need of any further buffs.
You know, generally speaking, strong Killers aren't in the bottom 3 kill rates.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3578616#Comment_3578616
I promise you there is more than “hoping he’s not good.” Learn the counterplay. It’s there.
Less time spent giving up because you don’t like a killer that you can’t loop like a regular m1 killer… is more time spent becoming a more skilled survivor.
Blight routinely slaps comp-level Survivors. Is it also a skill issue for them?
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@Skillfulstone said:
I still don't get why they want to make the Trickster 4.6m.
The whole point of range Killers (like Huntress and Slinger) is that they can attack from a long range and over/through some obstacles but are more reliant on skillfull use of their power than brute-forcing chases since strong tiles will be troublesome if only going for M1.
Removing recoil (effectively removing a large part of the learning process) and at the same time making him able to just disregard his power if the player can't aim/is out of ammo and still do decently is just weird.
It's even stranger that they buff one of the only Killers that can effectively ignore the AFC by making his rapid-fire projectiles more accurate and numerous.
It's the same problem with Artist, with enough skill she can cross-map without LOS and can negate any loop but is still 4.6m for some reason.
Main Event being so easily accessible will just turn Trickster into an even better camper.
They just buffed Trapper, maybe they want to equalize things again by buffing every other Killers to keep Trapper firmly at the bottom? XD
In all seriousness, all those buffs together are too much. If recoil goes away and anybody can just nail people from 20m away then he has to stay 4.4 and Main Event must still be an occasional thing. Quite frankly the speed boost alone is a bit much since he's already powerful in the right hands and with an effective range higher than Slinger he should require skill to use and get results with.
Trickster is unique among ranged Killers in that he's not actually that good at long ranges. Pulling out his knives makes him lose distance, his knives are way easier to dodge at long ranges, and he has to hit all 6 (Or 8, in the new patch) knives within 10 seconds of each other. Combine all those things together, and it's often just a waste of ammo to throw more than a couple knives at long range.
And with 110 speed, Trickster also just didn't have the tools to get into close range where his knives are actually effective. Hence his abysmal kill-rate.
The random recoil makes Trickster less skillful, not more. You can only compensate so much for a recoil pattern that you can't predict, especially on console.
You are aware that they raised the number of knives he needs to land before he takes a health state, yes?
Sure, the Main Event buff is egregious, especially on top of everything else.
But let's not beat around the bush; camping was all Trickster was actually good at before this update. Outside of that he was mediocre at best, even in the hands of a good player, and it showed in his kill rate; no matter how good you may be at landing knives, that doesn't change the fact that other projectile Killers could do what he does, but much, much better.
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@HandsomeJack_049 said:
All Trickster needs for main event is the ability to choose when to activate main event. The issue with the power was that you'd typically get it when you least needed it. (i.e., just finished a chase with a survivor and downed them and now you have main event ready.) Maybe you find a survivor and get to use it (like the developer update referenced) or more likley, it would run out because you couldn't find a chance to use it versus being locked into throwing knifes animation. They can keep it at thirty if we get that. Heck, they could even disable it around a hooked survivor if that's a serious concern (like artist).
I may be misremembering, but I think the limited duration is a deliberate design choice, because if Trickster could activate Main Event whenever he wanted, he could camp with it. And I can't really argue with that; Main Event makes Trickster into a monster in camping scenarios.
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@I_CAME said:
I saw a comp killer called Knightlight say the change is going to make him into an S tier killer. I think there might be a problem when even a comp player thinks something is too strong. The kill rates will speak the loudest I guess. If the new skull merchant can reach a 70% kill rate then the new Trickster might go even higher. They really need to slow down with this new trend of overbuffing killers. The concept of incremental changes is lost on Behavior at this point.
Has he even played Trickster? To be an S-tier Killer, you pretty much need:
-Little to no downtime on your power (No; Locker reloads)
-The ability to easily beat any, or almost any loop in the game (No; projectiles are good, but not that good)
-The ability to quickly and easily close the gap with Survivors so they can't just hold W to another loop (No; he's just a 115 Killer)
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I'll be honest, Made For This made me quit playing outright, so it feels pretty weird to praise BHVR just for undoing a mistake that they introduced in the first place. While fixing something bad is often necessary in game development, it is very different from adding something good.
My biggest complaint is that it often seems like the devs aren't really learning from their mistakes. I mean, how did MFT make it past testing? You'd think the devs would understand by now that Haste is a mechanic they need to apply very carefully, not as a permanent reward just for being injured.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3524277#Comment_3524277
That all depends on when it was decided that Dead Hard was growing too much again.
Well, Dead Hard started being meta around 2020, was reworked in July of 2022, and was finally nerfed in April of 2023. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I'd rather not have to wait 2-3 years for a problematic meta perk to finally get looked at.
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@Emeal said:
Sure, its strong. But on the other hand... The other Meta was stale and boring too.
I dont know what the use rate is, but I doubt its that bad or else bHVR would have done things.
What makes you think BHVR deals with frustrating perks in a timely manner? Dead Hard went untouched for months or even years at a time.
MFT's use rate is about the same as pre-6.7.0 Dead Hard, by the way. So on that front, we're back where we started.
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He gets countered pretty hard by one of the most common Survivor perks (Made for This), so why pick him? The payoff for getting an Overclock teleport just isn't there when MFT continuously puts the Survivor just out of reach.
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@Mat_Sella said:
Now that you cant stack enduring perks, Dead Hard was nerfed, and Conspicuous Actions are a thing, I wonder why its still 3 seconds.
Are they worried that people will still try to use it offensively?
Of course they will. That's why it's still 3 seconds.
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Yeah, I'm sorry, but Sadako already struggles to get hits, so making yourself immune to Condemn stacks unless you get hit is gonna make the tape an easy way to negate Sadako's power. If you aren't gonna make her chase any good, then she needs strong passive slowdown.
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@bbqBilly said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3470264#Comment_3470264
You mean by just having this perk it will permanently disable a survivor from doing gens? Sounds like the best slowdown perk ever, sign me up!
Or Survivors will just use it as an invincibility buff and do gens right in front of you because they know you can't hook them. Similar to how people often used Decisive Strike before Conspicuous Actions were a thing.
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@DrKetchup said:
Pain Res becomes a normal perk, no more Scourge hook requirement. The regression goes from 25% to 15%. And here is the important bit: When ALL tokens are used up, the perk gains 4 more tokens, but if you ever hook the same survivor twice in a row the perk gets disabled for the rest of the match.
Honestly, "Never hook the same Survivor consecutively, for any reason, ever" is pretty restrictive. Some Survivors literally want to be tunneled and will follow you around to annoy you if you don't. Some Survivors will give you a free down right off the hook. Some Survivors will use the basekit BT to bodyblock. Sometimes you literally just can't find anyone except the unhooked Survivor. And needing to hook all 4 Survivors is a tall order for a similar reason; sometimes you just can't find the last Survivor and they absolutely refuse to take any risks.
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Yeah, I fulfilled my end of the challenge awhile ago, but it's nowhere near enough.
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It's clear that neither the maps, nor the loops themselves, were designed for Survivors to move even slightly faster than 100%. This perk can make good Survivors near-uncatchable against M1 Killers. There's a reason this kind of small speed increase was a favored tactic of subtle cheaters.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3464945#Comment_3464945
Wacek134 has done 200-win streak on trickster. he has roughly an 60% accuracy on using trickster's knives. that is pretty impressive. He can run bola(+8 knive add-on) and death throes compilation and reload 0 times in the entire match because of how accurate he is at using trickster's ability. It is not that he is meaning to do that. He is not doing it as challenge. It is just that his aim is that good at base that he can do that on most games if not all games.
for average normie that plays trickster, they will naturally miss more knives on average and missing on trickster hurts a lot because it makes very easy to LOS him. So at least in my opinion, trickster should be a bit more newbie friendly so that playing for chases more achievable for non-one trick player. right now average player just camps with trickster because of how punishing he is to play and how his mechanics hurt his chase potencial. I guess my point is that you can usurp some of his drawbacks with raw aim skill but few player are willing to put the time to do that and there are simply much easier killers that produce higher output for less time investment.
Well, apart from not being very rewarding to master, Trickster is just a pretty one-note Killer as-is. On paper, a power involving spammable projectiles has all sorts of applications for harassment, zoning, sniping, chip damage... y'know, basically everything Huntress can do that Trickster can't.
But passive laceration decay pigeonholes Trickster into using his knives in chase, and nothing else. And it's not even that good in chase, either; few things feel worse than having to drop chase when the laceration meter is at 5 stacks, or going too long without landing a knife and watching the meter reset. And even if you get really good at aim tracking with Trickster, that doesn't really make up for the fact that other projectile Killers can do what he does, but better.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3464628#Comment_3464628
I do not want to post any links or anything but there is a player named Wacek134 that is one trick p100 trickster player. you can write in google Wacek134 twitch stream. he makes trickster look a lot stronger. majority of survivor do not play well vs trickster so I think he is still strong if you have the mechanical aim to play him. he only has shortcoming if he plays vs gen efficient teams and hold-w type teams that abuse LOS correctly at high-wall type loops. it makes chases quite long and not much kill-pressure when chases are long.
A one-trick p100 player can make any Killer look good. And as you said, when you go against good Survivors, you're gonna learn the limitations of a Killer real quick. So what's your point here? He's still a weak Killer.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/380815/an-in-depth-trickster-rant
I agree with your post. for some reason, they treat trickster as if he is burst damage character. in theory, the other range killer only need 0.01 seconds of line of sight for their projectile to hit. that is why they can have reduced movement penalties when using their power because their skill-cap is entirely revolved around timing. Trickster's skill is revolved more around raw aim then timing but you cannot aim if you cannot hit your target. For damage over time(DPS) character to work, he needs more movement speed when holding his knives so he can hold his knives around entire loop as he rotates the loop to hit the survivor. This would also improve his Main Event because current main event locks him into 96% m/s where the survivor can loop trees and rocks where he can do nothing other than cancel main event.
Long-range poking and gradually chipping away at the laceration meter in chase are both punished by this mechanic.
laceration mechanic also discourages him from disengaging chases. The laceration decay creates sunk cost fallacy for him where he is forced to commit to chases that he cannot win. The 40 meter lullaby does him not favor him either. He's not good at long range yet survivors can hear him miles away while being a killer that moves very slowly.
So outside of camping, what is Trickster's intended playstyle even supposed to be? Losing?
Bingo. You should try new forced hesitation perk on him. It is fantastic for Trickster's camping game.
Yeah, the 40-meter lullaby is quite unnecessary. The only time a Trickster is remotely threatening at 40 meters is if a Survivor already has 4-5 Laceration stacks (And probably doesn't need the warning anyway). There's a stronger argument for giving Blight or Oni a 40-meter lullaby, given that they actually have the tools to realistically be threatening at that distance.
And you are correct, the laceration mechanic does create a sunk-cost fallacy. It encourages you to commit to chases even when it's clearly not going well. So throwing even one knife in chase is always a calculated risk.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3460372#Comment_3460372
Just depends on the player. My games on average are over at 2 gens. My kill rate is well above 55-60%.
Then you are an outlier. Might I suggest getting into comp play? The same issue would most likely rear its head if you consistently play against Survivors of your skill level.
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@HugTechLover said:
Don’t let them complete the last gen and you won’t see adrenaline.
In a game where the developers are shooting for a ~55% kill rate, this simply isn't realistic. The only time Adrenaline won't come into play is in a match that the Survivors probably weren't going to win anyway.
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The biggest problem with Adrenaline is that it punishes you for spreading hooks/hits. If you refused to tunnel and everyone's injured when the exit gates are powered, you just screwed yourself because of Adrenaline. The optimal play against Adrenaline is always to get at least one Survivor out of the game as fast as possible, or at the bare minimum, to run enough slowdown that the Survivors will rarely manage to finish the gens.
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@Crowman said:
The speed at which survivors grab emps is hardly the problem.
The real problem is that once an emp is picked up the box automatically starts to print a new one. This effectively means that survivors have access to 5-9 emps at any given time. Add on the fact they are AoE meaning coordinated groups can easily force you to have to place bipods and shoot survivors 10 times before that survivor stays slipstreamed. And while the effects of being overcharged are good, due to the delay after teleport and the lack of speed buff from being overcharged, it's not that difficult to outplay an overcharged Singularity after forcing them to spend so much effort just to mark you.
I've seen a single Survivor use 3 EMPs in a single chase.
One thing you learn as a Killer main is that Survivors not doing gens is always good. It doesn't matter how you get them off, if Survivors are not doing gens, you are not losing. And time spent collecting EMPs and running to the Killer to use them is time not spent doing gens. And going through so much effort to disable the Singularity's power ignores the fact that Singularity is still a 115% Killer who is perfectly capable of getting hits regardless.
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It's very easy to stick a biopod next to every generator, and the rate at which EMPs spawn isn't enough to keep yourself uninfected without accelerating them.
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@Justa335i said:
Its a thin line.
If they don't do enough, people will complain.
If they do to much, people will say they are ruining the game and "forcing it" on everyone.
I feel the devs have gone above and beyond to show they are allies and hate will not be tolerated. The LGBT movement had its own event and charms, which cant be said about other marginalized groups. I also do not think that sexuality plays a part in this game. It doesn't matter which characters identify as or who they are attracted to. The survivors are all working together to survive a killer, not go on a date.
And why exactly is the latter crowd's opinions worth listening to? Catering to people who find the existence of LGBT folks offensive stinks of appeasement more than anything else.
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@Phantom_ said:
You know the game is doing fine when people whine about Adrenaline and WoO. Just because you find them annoying doesn't mean they need changing, perhaps your mindset does.
WoO doesn't show anything that isn't already there on the map, it's a great perk for beginners to learn the maps and tiles. EDIT: Zanshin Tactics does the very same for a killer, you could put that on. Otzdarva had a video of a Clown killer using that perk very efficiently and getting quite the results.
Adrenaline is a high-risk, high-reward perk and only activates at the very end of the game IF the survivor lives that long. They're fine as they are. It sounds a bit like you're a newer player to the game, you could go for end-game builds if you counter those perks that often; use NOED, Blood Warden, Blood Echo/Fearmonger against exhaustion perks, or even Wesker's Terminus.
Adrenaline really isn't that high-risk. Popping all the gens is something one can expect to happen in over 50% of all matches, and the payoff doesn't really match the risk. A game where Adrenaline doesn't come into play is a game that you likely weren't going to win anyway, which is why it's the #2 Survivor perk.
Putting Unbreakable on your build, by contrast, is a high risk; the Killer might not slug at all in some matches, and even if they do, the odds aren't great that they're going to slug you specifically, AND that using your Unbreakable will be the optimal play when that happens.
That wouldn't bother me all that much, but the bigger issue with Adrenaline is that it punishes spreading pressure, and rewards tunneling. If you spread hooks, if you play hit-and-run, if you adopt any sort of playstyle that isn't tunneling people out of the game as fast as possible, you are putting yourself in a position to be absolutely demolished by Adrenaline's auto-healing.
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@Eelanos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3450561#Comment_3450561
DH and healing got gutted and the killer is the power role, all things that the killers specifically asked the dev to do.
This means chases are not worth it. You are either a cracked looper with a really lucky pallet/window spawn or your chase will last 20 seconds.
The moment the first player goes down, it's a race against the clock, as you'll have two players busy with rescuing and healing (the rescuer and the rescued) and a third player in chase, dramatically reducing your gen repair efficency.
What this means is, if you're not close to 1 generator remaining by the first two minutes, the game is essentially lost.
DH allowed some innefficency to slip by, but it's now dead, so everyone is stressed out of their minds to have a sliver of a chance to win, and what you're asking them to do is to ignore the objective and essentially doom themselves.
So... yeah. People asked for this meta.
Survivors were cranking out gens like crazy before the DH/Healing nerf and they'll keep doing it after.
The real problem here, which existed long before either of those changes, is that the timing of the first down is critical, often setting the pace for the whole rest of the match. (This is one reason why Nurse and Blight are top-tier). Once someone goes down, Survivors go from having 3 people on gens at minimum to having just one. And if the Killer keeps getting downs in a timely manner, Survivors continue to have just one person on gens. But if Survivors ever get the breathing room to heal up and get back on gens, they will fly by with startling speed.
The issue with this is that it places enormous pressure on the Killer to end the first chase, and every subsequent chase, as fast as humanly possible. Or to fight dirty and nab free hits or get someone out of the game as fast as possible. A small mistake (For example, being just a little too slow on a swing into a window vault) can immediately put you far behind schedule.
Gens can realistically be finished in as little as 3 1/2 minutes or as long as 8 minutes with all 4 Survivors alive, so even a small slip-up can mean that there just isn't enough time to chase everyone, so every Killer is stressed out of their minds trying to beat the clock.
So... yeah. Is it any wonder that Killers are running builds like this all the time?
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@Luceus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3449149#Comment_3449149
I swear this community can't get past the US vs Them mentality...
Yes if a survivors is bad/throws the should lose...
This applies to both sides, not just yours, not just survivors...
It's not Us vs. Them, dude. There's more to mastering the game than just chases, and mechanics like Bloodlust reflect that.
Because again, regardless of how good you are, you're supposed to lose a chase as a Survivor after a certain amount of time. The game is designed around Survivors losing multiple chases in a single match; the chase mechanics HAVE to be heavily tilted in the Killer's favor for the game to function.
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@Luceus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3449141#Comment_3449141
They can shine... In low MMR lobbys where they should be until they learn how to loop better...
Or maybe the Survivors who spend all match following the Killer around trying to bait them into a chase so they can show off their looping skills should be shining in low MMR lobbies, where they should be until they learn that doing gens is how you win.
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@Luceus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3449127#Comment_3449127
Exactly a survivor is supposed to get downed, however why does it need to be from a crutch and not skill? Why instead of losing to get to a more suitable MMR the game the game tries to correct your mistakes to try and grant you a win?
Killers already have the upper hand in chase (Factoring out the bad map design).
If you can't win chases you should loose.
Because in a game where every Survivor can be literally uncatchable if they're good enough at looping, there'd be significantly fewer Killer players around.
Dbd is somewhat unique in that it expects you to not only be good in the 1v1, but also macro in the 4v1; it is possible to play all of your chases optimally and still lose if you aren't good at the 4v1. As anyone who's run the Killer for 5 whole minutes, but somehow their teammates only managed to finish a single gen in that time, can attest to.
Some Killer players aren't that good at chasing, but are good at macro, and a game where chase is literally everything doesn't really give those Killer players a chance to shine.
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If a Killer is hitting BL 2 or 3, it means the Survivor looped the Killer for 25/35 seconds without forcing a pallet break, which is extremely good for the Survivor.
Factoring out the bad map design, Bloodlust is there to make it explicitly clear that the Survivor is supposed to lose a chase after a certain amount of time, because in a 4v1 game, the 1 has to be much stronger than the 4 individually.
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Playing Killer feels like I'm wearing blinders on the sides of my face. Having actual peripheral vision would make them feel much better to play.
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She needs a rework. Her power is near-useless in chase, her lack of mobility and the speed at which drones can be disabled means they just aren't that threatening unless she babysits them, and the small radius of the drones makes the stealth element of her kit almost useless. All this combines to create a predictable, one-note Killer whose power is on par with Freddy's for how worthless it is when it isn't being used to 3-gen.
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@Adjatha said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3440895#Comment_3440895
I am afraid you are mistaken. By all means, feel free to try him out and find out for yourself.
His attack goes 8 meters. He slows way down when planting the blade and has zero left to right movement. The shockwave is preceded by an enormous red light that only survivors can see and had a travel time as it goes. The wave itself is less than a meter wide. Literally anybody can move left or right ever so slightly and be totally immune. And then, your post-move recovery is longer than simply missing with an attack.
The only survivors who get caught by that in the open are ones who are not looking behind themselves (or simply listening to the deafening warning sound) and don't know they can simply move slightly to one side.
Really? So these weren't competitive Survivor players? Weird, the names and the video's title are usually a dead giveaway.
https://youtu.be/Usx2D2c-CyM?t=740Everything you just said about Pyramid Head ignores that Pyramid Head has one of the widest, if not THE widest projectile hitbox in the game. And sure, going for M2 hits in the open is a gamble, especially at max range, but getting a hit is hardly impossible even against good Survivors.
Again, human reaction times simply aren't that fast. The average human reaction time is 0.284 seconds. Pyramid Head's M2- at max range- lands 0.6 seconds after Pyramid Head presses the button to activate it. Meaning, the average Survivor player, after recognizing the threat, has only 0.316 seconds to sidestep the attack. Which is enough to dodge if you started near the edge of the hitbox or were already moving in a good direction, but not enough to dodge every single time.
And yes, I've played Pyramid Head myself. And yes, I've landed M2s in the open and through walls. If you think it's impossible, you don't know how to play Pyramid Head. If you did, you would know that you can aim left or right with his power if you just stop moving.
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@Adjatha said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/377216/why-is-ai-so-ridiculously-powerful
Pyramid Head's shockwave is not an attack in the sense that virtually every other attack in the game is. Due to its tremendous warning sound, slow down, start-up delay, warning light, and execution speed; It is ONLY useful in extremely narrow confines or when the survivor is stuck in an animation lock (vaulting a window, throwing a pallet).
Do not try to use the shockwave in the open, through a wall, or in any area where the survivor can step 0.8 meters to the side and avoid the entire thing. This is true of any survivor with any experience at the game and this is true of AI bots.
...That is not how you play Pyramid Head. Even tournament-level Pyramid Heads will still go for M2s in the open- and hit them. Human reaction times simply aren't fast enough to consistently dodge an M2 if the Pyramid Head correctly predicted your movement.
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@Kirarozu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3439149#Comment_3439149
Uhh... when survivors can no longer hide anywhere from killers itll be obvious. And why wouldn't every killer in the game use it? They'd be intentionally handicapping themselves if they didn't.
If you can only hide from a Killer that has no peripheral vision, then you are bad at hiding. I mean, if it's really so hard to hide against people with peripheral vision, how does anyone ever win at hide and seek irl?
And not everyone would use it because- shocker- different people are comfortable with different FoVs, and have different levels of tolerance for motion sickness. I don't get motion sickness from playing the Killer's default FoV, but it still feels unnatural, and there are many people in this thread who obviously do get sick.
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@Mooks said:
I do agree though I guess at that point you kinda have to learn against human players? Sure some adjustments would be fine but there will always be a noticeable distinction,
also I think it’s fine to just learn about the actual controls of a new killer, timings, building some muscle memory, maybe test some addon/perk combos etc. without any pressure of actual matches even if the survs might not react like actual players would.
Well, I think something should still be done, because few human Survivors can figure out where a Singularity's lock-on is coming from and find a path away from it the instant the biopod lights up, or the instant it's placed. Perhaps some difficulty settings are in order?
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@Eelanos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432991#Comment_3432991
"especially without an endgame build specifically for that scenario, or the Survivors just making a stupid mistake"
You're so close to realizing what the problem is, but you just don't quite get there.
Killers, while more or less likely depending on the match, can still make plays up until the moment the last survivor leaves. If a survivor makes a mistake, like the all too common "just leave", the killer can still turn around the match depending on which killer they are and what perks they carry.
The last survivor doesn't have that luxury. If the gates spawn easy to camp at a glance, no amount of Wake Up! and Sole Survivor is going to help them open them, and if the killer is camping the gates, there's no room for mistakes or outplays. It's just one player frantically flickering their mouse left and right with no incentive to do literally anything else.
I insist: If EGC didn't exist, you'd be here having this very same conversation, only on the other side of the debate. You'd be asking for the game to either immediately end and kick all survivors out or get ultrabuffed to be able to make last-ditch effort plays. No one enjoys playing a lost match.
How many times must I repeat myself? On an M1 Killer, if the Survivors are anywhere near an open exit gate, it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for you to catch them before they escape without some kind of instadown. You have hit cooldowns, they have the injured speed boost, and if they're not complete idiots, they're going to make a beeline for the gate.
And this is something that many Survivors know perfectly well, given that they'll often hang out just close enough to the gates that you can't catch them in time, so I have no idea how you've managed to play the game so long without learning this.
The EGC is literally the bare minimum that ensures the game can't be taken hostage forever, so this is a pretty moot point. I've already demonstrated that there's no contradiction in my views; whether for Killers or Survivors, at some point the game has to give in and hand one team the W, even if the game isn't technically over yet.
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@Eelanos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432601#Comment_3432601
You're running on false equivalencies. Even without DH and DS, chases are still winnable perkless and basekit, even if very difficult. There are windows, there are pallets, there's some mindgames and some LoS plays. The chased player still has agency over what they do and there's still the hope that what you're doing is progressing the match to a satisfactory result.
Leaving through the hatch or the exit gates doesn't follow the same logic. For starters, there's no "rightfully-earned victory snatched away". The survivor leaving isn't making the killer lose, it's making the killer not win as much. A hatch escape isn't even a "win", it's an "undo" button. A "try again" of sorts.
We're talking, in a situation where only one single player remains, is it good game design trapping them with a time limit and two easy to camp gates with a killer that has no incentive to leave the sweetspot between both gates?
The killer isn't winning here by outplay, they're winning here by default. By game design. There's no "rightfully-earned victory" here.
If we're going to make it impossible for a player to escape, the game should end on the spot. Otherwise we pretend there's hope in what the survivor does, when it truly isn't, just like with the reworked wiggle skill check.
Do not make people play through futile scenarios. Either end the game or fix gate spawns so there's actual gameplay instead of frantically flickering the mouse while standing in one spot.
You'd be complaining about this situation too if end game didn't have the EGC progress bar and had to stand in the same spot for several minutes with no hope of closing the game. But you're not because our current situation benefits you.
If you ignore all of the context that led up to the Killer being in a position to camp both gates, sure, they won by default. But the simple truth is that the Killer had to make a good play- a LOT of good plays- AND get lucky with the hatch spawn- to get in a position where they can camp those exit gates in the first place.
It's no different from Survivors getting the gates open with all 4 people healthy and ready to go. They had to make an entire game's worth of good plays to get in that position, and saying the Killer should still have a chance to win- especially without an endgame build specifically for that scenario, or the Survivors just making a stupid mistake- is just needlessly prolonging the game.
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@Eelanos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432558#Comment_3432558
You can romaticise it as much as you want, but people don't play multiplayer games knowing they'll have 0% chance to win for a reason.
For example, some horror movies end with the victims alive and only background characters killed or harmed, yet that didn't stop players in VHS for avoiding killer queue altogether. And likewise, DBD killers cried for a buff when kill rate was 55% because they felt they had no chance to win in some matches. Do horror movies where the protagonists survive not fit the narrative, then? We'll just ignore those for the sake of saving gate camping and terrible map design as long as it's in favor of killers? Is standing still to win really a gameplay fantasy you're willing to bend over to defend?
Again, if there truly is no chance to win, you cannot expect the survivor to hand you a 4k. As long as the game doesn't end, the players - all players involved - should have a chance at escaping or catching another survivor. We shouldn't default to "Well, I killed 3 so I essentially just killed all lmao"
Yeah, some movies end with all the victims alive. Which is why I don't claim that the game is balanced when I 4K every game.
Again, you have the tools to escape even in the most dire circumstances possible, right up until you're lying half dead on the ground. But I really don't see how "So long as the match is still going, all players involved should still have a chance at winning" is a philosophy worth following above all else.
I mean, following that logic, we should unnerf Dead Hard and Decisive Strike at the very least. Both of those give you a chance to win a chase (Or in some cases, a match) that you otherwise lost. But people don't like feeling as though they had their rightfully-earned victories snatched away. At some point, you have to give in and let one team coast on to victory, even if the match isn't technically over yet. It just isn't that satisfying to play a game where nothing that you do really seems to stick; where any play, no matter how skilled or massive, can be undone in an instant.
And in this case, Survivors have already had two chances to escape, and failed. Giving them a third is fine, but after a point, it's time to stop. The match might technically not be over yet because you still have to walk through the exit gates or wait for the last Survivor to die, but the game is effectively done and should be treated as such by the game's mechanics.
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@Nicholas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432529#Comment_3432529
That hasn't been established, however, what has been established is that you're conflating. You're introducing all these unrelated points and side discussions about various aspects of the game and you can't seem to focus.
You're not debating in good fate. You keep going back to wanting to discuss a guaranteed escape despite the fact that I've made clear I never mentioned escaping. YOU have, several times now!
Funny, I've been thinking the same thing for a while now. That you're either not debating in good faith, or simply so biased in favor of your chosen role and playstyle that you're outright incapable of seeing the bigger picture.
Because when I take the things you say at face value, I simply cannot form a coherent worldview out of them. Do you believe that the gates spawning next to each other makes it "impossible" to win, or do you believe that getting a 4K on an M1 Killer with no instadowns after the exit gates are open and all 4 Survivors are healthy is anything more than wishful thinking? Those are two pretty incompatible positions. You don't seem to really be taking a firm position on the matter, but simply claiming to believe whatever would need to be true in order to score points against me in that moment.