Monlyth
Monlyth
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So this is what Killer entitlement looks like.
This developer update addressed several of the longest-standing Killer complaints in the game: Dead Hard is still too prevalent, Medkits are too strong, Circle of Healing is too good, I feel like I need to tunnel in order to win.
Boom, Dead Hard nerf. Boom, Medkit nerf. Boom, Circle of Healing nerf. Boom, Pain Res now rewards you- substantially- for not tunneling.
This is one of the most hype mid-chapter updates I've ever seen, including 6.1.0.. Dead Hard is finally, finally eating a serious nerf. I don't have to tunnel anymore, I can just hook whoever with Pain Res. Medkits aren't god-tier anymore.
I can hardly wait to play a game where I don't have to wait an extra 2-3 seconds every time I catch an injured Survivor. A game where a successful mindgame isn't countered by pressing a button. A game where Survivors actually have to be good at looping because they don't have a third health state at the ready.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393925#Comment_3393925
What are you even saying? You literally CAN'T self-heal without a medkit or CoH.
Exactly! Why the hell are you comparing altruistic healing that needs nothing to be done with self healing with a medkit, then! If there is no medkit those 16 seconds invested in healing other survivor would be expended anyway, so you would not be wasting more time than necessary. That's why I said "that would only be true if a medkit is in play", because it is only true if a medkit is in play. If it is not, you won't be wasting any more time as it would be impossible for one of the survivors to do anything else that isn't heal or getting healed. That's why it is a false equivalency fallacy.
Unless the Killer suddenly decides to drop chase, or has Nurse's Calling, or the survivor they're chasing is forced to run towards the healing survivors.
And in any of those cases the killer would have 4 to 16 seconds to catch you or you would fully heal and get away. That, without taking in count that in the first case you would see in the HUD / someone would tell you in voice comms that the killer has break chase and has to still find and reach you. And in the last case, well, you can only blame your partner as the game or any of the mechanics has anything to do with it.
Grouping up can be done more safely now without using voice comms, and nothing of that changes this.
And if they're doing a hit-and-run playstyle, the odds of the first two happening are quite high.
Nurse Calling has a 5.93% pickrate. Almost nobody is running a hit-and-run build because letting a survivor go would means it gets healed even before you can find another one to hurt. That was precisely the main argument BHVR gave to nerf the healing in first place, to "make injures matter".
Altruistic healing has stayed at 16 seconds for a long, long time, and Killers have managed just fine through all of it.
Using that same logic, altruistic healing being as high as self healing is not a problem as it has being that way for a long, long time, and survivors have managed just fine though all of it.
So, that proves absolutely nothing.
Exactly! Why the hell are you comparing altruistic healing that needs nothing to be done with self healing with a medkit, then! If there is no medkit those 16 seconds invested in healing other survivor would be expended anyway, so you would not be wasting more time than necessary. That's why I said "that would only be true if a medkit is in play", because it is only true if a medkit is in play. If it is not, you won't be wasting any more time as it would be impossible for one of the survivors to do anything else that isn't heal or getting healed. That's why it is a false equivalency fallacy.
Again, I really don't understand what your point even is here. Medkits make healing WAY more time-efficient, leaving the rest of your team free to crank out gens. They invalidate hit-and-run as a strategy, because Survivors can heal from your Sloppy Butcher hits faster than you can dish them out, and you can't catch more than one Survivor healing at a time.
And in any of those cases the killer would have 4 to 16 seconds to catch you or you would fully heal and get away. That, without taking in count that in the first case you would see in the HUD / someone would tell you in voice comms that the killer has break chase and has to still find and reach you. And in the last case, well, you can only blame your partner as the game or any of the mechanics has anything to do with it.
For any Killer with decent mobility, 16 seconds to find you isn't unrealistic, especially because the more time Survivors spend looking for a place to hide while healing, the less they spend healing or doing gens. Even Killers with no mobility like Ghostface have been known to play hit-and-run for this reason.
Nurse Calling has a 5.93% pickrate. Almost nobody is running a hit-and-run build because letting a survivor go would means it gets healed even before you can find another one to hurt. That was precisely the main argument BHVR gave to nerf the healing in first place, to "make injures matter".
Hit-and-run was a niche playstyle because Medkit self-healing hard countered it. Every injury you inflicted could be undone quickly and risk-free.
Using that same logic, altruistic healing being as high as self healing is not a problem as it has being that way for a long, long time, and survivors have managed just fine though all of it.
That's... not the same logic? Altruistic healing has always been at 16 seconds; setting it to 24 to match the new self-healing would be an unprecedented change. Saying it's okay to change it because it's always been the same as self-healing is more wordplay than actual argument.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393420#Comment_3393420
Altruistic healing requires two survivors, which effectively means at least twice as much Survivor time is wasted.
That's a lie. And it is a lie because that would only be true if a medkit is in play. If the survivor didn't has a medkit, the time healing him would be wasted anyway, so it is not "time to heal x 2 invested". I don't know who come up with that, but he is so wrong.
It is also risky to group up for any reason
It was risky to group up, but now even without voice comms you can know when the killer is busy chasing another survivor thanks to the HUD icons. And the time spent in grouping up would go from 4 to 16 seconds depending on the situation (like I said, now with CoH 3 survivors can heal themself in 12 seconds total). So I won't call that risky, as it can be done safely if you chose the moment to do it.
I usually end up spending a LOT more time injured after my Medkit is out of charges. Finding a teammate and getting them to heal you can often be challenging in and of itself.
And you really spend your time actively searching for healing, or you just do your thing until you simply cross paths with other survivor, whatever by chance or because you hear a gen being worked on? Because unless you start running across all the map to find someone without doing anything else, you are not wasting any time in getting healed.
So, again, all this not explain why altruistic healing is not a problem to begin with.
That's a lie. And it is a lie because that would only be true if a medkit is in play. If the survivor didn't has a medkit, the time healing him would be wasted anyway, so it is not "time to heal x 2 invested". I don't know who come up with that, but he is so wrong.
What are you even saying? You literally CAN'T self-heal without a medkit or CoH. Unless you're running Self-Care, which is garbage because it's less efficient than just healing normally.
It was risky to group up, but now even without voice comms you can know when the killer is busy chasing another survivor thanks to the HUD icons. And the time spent in grouping up would go from 4 to 16 seconds depending on the situation (like I said, now with CoH 3 survivors can heal themself in 12 seconds total). So I won't call that risky, as it can be done safely if you chose the moment to do it.
Unless the Killer suddenly decides to drop chase, or has Nurse's Calling, or the survivor they're chasing is forced to run towards the healing survivors.
And if they're doing a hit-and-run playstyle, the odds of the first two happening are quite high.
If you want "evidence" that altruistic healing isn't a problem, what better evidence could you ask for than the game's entire history? Altruistic healing has stayed at 16 seconds for a long, long time, and Killers have managed just fine through all of it. The main thing holding hit-and-run playstyles back has always been medkits, not basekit healing.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/371303/thoughts-on-april-developer-update
Can you please explain to me why just self healing was the problem and not altruistic healing, if you don't mind?
Because I hear everybody saying those exact same words, but not a single one of them have given any reason or explanation for this "fact".
Well, one survivor healing themselves can just run off into a corner (While their teammates are free to keep doing gens), heal themselves, and then get right back on gens. Altruistic healing requires two survivors, which effectively means at least twice as much Survivor time is wasted.
It is also risky to group up for any reason, because if the Killer finds you, they disrupt multiple Survivors at once. And if they catch you while healing, they're likely to get a free hit out of it, maybe even a quick down, and the Survivors will have spent all that time trying to heal for nothing.
And speaking personally, when I've played Survivor, I usually end up spending a LOT more time injured after my Medkit is out of charges. Finding a teammate and getting them to heal you can often be challenging in and of itself.
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@MerleDixon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392733#Comment_3392733
Since when was I hurting people with epilepsy? I said butchering flashlights was unnecessary, you said I wanna hurt people with epilepsy, that's a whole nother sentence .
You realize that if you click the flashlight a bunch at a player with epilepsy, they could have a seizure, right? Sorry, but if you clicky-clicky, you are hurting people with epilepsy.
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Epileptics didn't ask to have epilepsy, dude. You might wanna reconsider that statement.
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The Survivors' objective is independent of the Killer. In a match where the Killer didn't exist, the Survivors could still do their objectives normally.
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@Veinslay said:
wow BHVR do something, every game there's a killer that camps and tunnels at 5 gens and it's no fun!!! wahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
::killer plays nice and multiple survivors escape::
lol gg ez baby killer teabag teabag teabag at exit gates
Funny story, I had a 3E-4E match against a Wraith that got 3 of us on death hook before his first sacrifice. He could have 3k'd easily if he tried. And the nerve of my teammates, teabagging at the exit gates when the only reason we were still alive is because he played nice.
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@Desteriaa said:
Killer mains you got what you wanted congratulations…
Can’t wait to see the next perk you blame for not getting 4ks consistently/Wins. Wonder what you're gonna go after next… Maybe lithe Oh No it’s definitely gonna be Sb. Deadhard was fine and easily counterable but what the survivors say don’t matter because this game is killer sided!!!
Well, thanks. I even prepared a little edit just for the occasion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRnWxX04ZVI@Pepsidot said:
Nerfing DH is ultimately a good thing (which is hard to say because I use it all the time). But it's scary to imagine just how much easier chases are about to become vs great players playing top killers like Blight, Nurse, Spirit.
As DH is being nerfed, this will reduce the length of chases. Plus, healing and resetting will take longer and are more likely to be interrupted (likely nullified with a sloppy meta), - so killers with good mobility get buffed significantly. End game saves will be more difficult because of this too. The game for solo players will become THAT much more difficult.
I think if these changes go through, it'd be good for the devs to look at things like extending hook timers further, nerfing Blight's addons significantly, etc. If they could not follow through with one thing - don't put the base heal to 24s. Keep the healing of other survivors at 16s at base.
This is why I've never hesitated to denounce Nurse and Blight. The two are just on a whole different level from the rest of the cast, they warp the whole game around them. No place on the map is safe from them, and the sheer speed with which they can end chases is incredibly obnoxious. So Survivors tend to feel like they need dumb bullcrap along the line of DH, Medkits and Circle of Healing just to keep up, and I can't exactly blame them.
But then I'm the one who has to deal with the fallout as a Killer that just plays the game normally.
I'm also not in favor of the healing nerfs. On paper, I can kinda get what they were going for, but in practice, the balancing around healing is very delicate. Besides, Medkits and CoH are what actually push healing over the edge.
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Imagine a game where you don't have to wait an extra 5 seconds every time you catch an injured Survivor. A game where a successful mindgame isn't countered by pressing a button. A game where Survivors actually have to be good at looping because they don't have a third health state at the ready.
I'm giddy just thinking about it.
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@Firellius said:
It's a really trash change that does everything the community doesn't want: It's blocked by camping, disabled by hard-tunnelling, and is going to work significantly worse in solo queue than in swiffers.
The thing is, I don't see a lot of other nerf options that don't make it do something completely different. If it activates after being unhooked, it's just a worse Off the Record. If it activates on protection hits, it's just a better Mettle of Man (And stacks with it, which could easily create a pretty stupid playstyle). If it only works once per trial, it's too weak to see play (Which wouldn't really bother me, but ehh). If it only activates on special attacks or basic attacks, then it unduly punishes a lot of mid- to low-tier Killers.
@solarjin1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385212#Comment_3385212
"It means if you want to use DH you have no exhaustion in the first chase which will make you massively weaker"
i would be absolutely shock if someone run DH without another exhaustion perk. You can still have a strong first chase with another exhaustion perk and break out DH when u obtain it later o.
Use another Exhaustion perk? Like what? Most Exhaustion perks can't just be held onto forever, they activate off pretty common actions in a chase. And then you can't use DH.
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I consider tunneling to be "Going out of your way to hook the same Survivor consecutively, for the purpose of killing them early".
So no, OP wasn't tunneling.
I've been accused of tunneling even after consciously choosing to drop chase against a Survivor that I knew was on death hook.
I've seen streamers like Otz do challenge runs where they're never allowed to hook the same survivor consecutively, for any reason, and still get accused of tunneling.
Tunneling is a real concept and some of the complaints about tunneling are valid, but it's one of the most misused terms in the game. It's often simply used in an attempt to make the Killer feel bad for getting kills.
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@BritneyMitch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383155#Comment_3383155
https://dennisreep.nl/dbd/perks/survivor/
number 1 list when googled and it’s community voted so its not just one persons opinion. Lithe and sprint burst both above dh.
Well, I gotta say, that's a pretty terrible tier list. Prove Thyself as the #1 perk? Adrenaline, Off the Record, Unbreakable and Deliverance in B tier? No self-respecting comp player would make a tierlist like that.
This tierlist puts Head On on the same level as Deliverance, and puts Mettle of Man above both, almost as high as Unbreakable. And if Mettle of Man is above Deliverance on your tierlist, you done goofed.
This a fine example of why polling isn't good data.
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@feffrey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383137#Comment_3383137
So let me get this right.. as you stated Dead hard doesn't work in dead zones it doesn't work against half the killers relies on ping . It isn't a universal perk . You're saying DH isn't great choice to use against all killers and can't be used in evert situations very limited and only usable while injured. Isn't a fair perk?
While killers gain free mobility while being in chase and losing they get multiple free hits with virtually no penalty
There is no scenario where Dead Hard won't provide at least some value. Either by having the Killer swing into it, forcing the Killer to waste time waiting it out, or by forcing a no-win situation at pallets. It's the benefit of a perk that can be activated whenever the Survivor chooses.
Are you seriously complaining about Bloodlust now? It should be pretty obvious that in a 1v4 game, the one player has to be stronger than the 4 individually. The Survivor is supposed to lose a chase after a certain amount of time. If you've gotten the Killer to hit Bloodlust, then congratulations, you've successfully run the Killer for 15 seconds without forcing a pallet break, and you're most likely winning because of it. If you just wanna run the Killer forever, this game is not for you.
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@BritneyMitch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383097#Comment_3383097
Dead hard just doesn’t take as much brain power to get value. After learning the timing it’s pretty easy to get value out of it. I don’t know what game you’re playing but the entire player base is not using dead hard. Maybe you just get hit by it a lot but by waiting it out I would say I hit a survivor with dead hard like once a match? Almost every community tier list has lithe above dead hard. It’s just a stronger perk that does more once you practice how to use it effectively. If you straight up tunnel a survivor for 3 gens and don’t wait out dead hard rather than spreading out injuries you’re game is gonna sucks.
I have no idea what tier lists you're reading, but the ones I've seen will maybe, narrowly put Sprint Burst above DH, but never Lithe above DH.
And I've seen comp players swing into DH pretty regularly. The ones I've talked to say it's just not worth it to try and play the waiting game if it means they might make it to a pallet.
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@Pink_Ronin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382736#Comment_3382736
Well it's not fun for me either the 70% of the time it doesn't work but you don't see me whining that the endurance window should be increased to 3-5 seconds. The reality is, if a survivor is able to successfully DH more than one time you are not good at killer.
Well, if the perk is unfun for you 70% of the time, then it sounds like a pretty unfun perk for both sides. All the more reason to nerf it to the ground. Killers don't have to play against a perk that punishes them for hitting the Survivor, and Survivors don't have to play a perk that makes them look like an idiot 70% of the time. Win-win.
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@Pink_Ronin said:
Killer mains I feel don't understand that the fun factor is why people use it. I can 99 SB and be just as effective if not more than with DH, it's simply not as satisfying as pulling off a successful DH. Also it takes a bad killer to not be able to counter a DH realistically, that's just a fact. Unless DH is used on a tile with a pallet it's effectively useless. You can barely conserve pallets on a loop ever since they increased bloodlust speed, and DH was basically the last way to accomplish this. Not anymore, bye bye looping mindgames. It was the only reason I enjoyed this game so it's probably going to be bye bye DBD for me unfortunately, I used to love this game.
Let's take this (False) argument at face value: People only ran DH because it was fun. Here's the problem: In a multiplayer game, when you're designing a mechanic, you can't only be thinking about the fun of the player who gets to use it. You also have to be thinking about the fun of the player who it gets used on.
And I'll tell you right now: Dead Hard is the #1 mechanic that makes me reconsider when I'm thinking of playing Killer. Medkits? Flashlights? Who cares. Bad maps? Sweaty SWFs? Whatever, it's not every match. But Dead Hard? Please god, make it stop.
So if you're gonna use "Muh fun" as an argument, newsflash: Playing against Dead Hard isn't fun. This is something Killers have been saying for years, and Survivors have dismissed it over and over, but now that it affects you, suddenly having fun is important?
You can choose not to run DH if it isn't fun for you, but I have no choice but to play against DH constantly and treat every Survivor like they have it if I'm playing Killer. So why should your fun take precedence over mine?
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@Hannacia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382665#Comment_3382665
Sadly i have a feeling they will revert the 16 seconds but they will not revert any of the killer nerfs. This has been a theme lately.
Survivors don't understand how much time killers will lose with these nerfs, but they just keep thinking about themselfs and their 4 precious perks they don't want to take off to try something new.
Before someone calls me a killer main... i play 80% survivor nowdays so no.. i just happen to see game from both sides.
I really think you're overreacting tbh. With Medkits, CoH and Dead Hard nerfed, I can see myself winning a lot of games that, in the past, I lost. Killers will adjust their builds like they always have, but Medkits and CoH are pretty irreplaceable, and without DH punishing me for picking certain Killers, forcing me to give up easy hits out of fear, or extending chases to a degree that no other Exhaustion perk can, I can end chases much faster.
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@Hex_TunnelBait said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380429#Comment_3380429
For the past several weeks, I have had killers tunnel directly off-hook in at least 40% of my survivor matches. I play mostly on the survivor side, so maybe I just play more survivor matches which would naturally lead to me seeing more instances of it. Either way, the BT and Haste do not stop it.
Not unhooking in the killer's face is also not always up to the survivors. If a killer is camping the hook - which also happens very often in my experience - then survivors may have no choice but to do an unsafe unhook. And especially in solo queue, where survivors often lack the coordination needed for a safe unhook against a camping killer.
I would definitely consider DH an anti-tunnel perk given that it gives a survivor something to defend themselves if the killer waits out the incredibly short BT. Clearly from my low number of posts, I'm new to this forum so I don't know what people have said in the past about whether DH is an anti-tunnel perk. But I'd appreciate not having my posts condescended as "I guess nobody could come up with a better argument against the changes" simply because you haven't heard it described that way before.
Anywho, DH change bad.
I would call pre-nerf DH a pro-tunnel perk, not anti-tunnel. If I go after the unhooker, I potentially have to get through three health states to down them, thanks to DH. If I go for the unhooked, I only need to get through two at the most.
If you really want to discourage tunneling, Off the Record and Decisive Strike can do what DH does, but better.
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366587#Comment_3366587
It's just.. kind of a menial issue, as most wouldn't even care since it's not really a rational thing to be prioritizing over anything else
Which makes it all the more bizarre that people are so insistent this shouldn't happen. Much less, what? 18 people now? I didn't see this level of outrage over the new privacy settings.
@viewfan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366587#Comment_3366587
So me disagreeing with a minor QoL suggestion is considered talking down on them and jumping down trans peoples throats?
Listen to yourself. you got some mad NPC energy 😂 13+ people disagreed with the suggestion because it's unnecessary and this buggy af game has bigger issues to fix.
Oh god, I still cringe at my memories of the times I thought the NPC meme was anything but an insipid thought-terminating cliché. I wish you a speedy recovery.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366683#Comment_3366683
Why are you so desperate to hold onto one stupid perk?There's two possibilities:
1: Let's say DH is the strongest perk in the game for survivors. Killers are still winning. If in fact the perk is that strong taking it away without massive other changes and the game becomes lopsided.
2: Let's say DH is no stronger than other exhaustion perks. It can create distance just like Sprint Burst and Lithe. It gets more, but comes with a risk. It however actually gives survivors something to do. Instead of just holding W for as long as possible, it creates a mind game between survivor and killer.
1) I find that unlikely; the comp players I've talked to put Sprint Burst juuuust below Dead Hard in terms of strength, and actually more powerful in some situations; it's not unheard-of for teams to bring 1-2 Sprint Bursts even in unrestricted matches. And if Survivors genuinely need a buff, there's lots of ways we can buff them that aren't as aggravating to the Killer. Like with a reworked Dead Hard that does something completely different.
Also bear in mind that the video I just showed had the Killer using pre-nerf Eruption; if he didn't have it, it's likely he would have lost the one in Azarov's Resting Place.
2) More complexity is not always better. The Killer can't be everywhere at once, so they usually can't stop at least a few gens from popping; they can only try to limit gen time by ending chases quickly. That doesn't make gens a bad mechanic. Now, to clarify, there are issues with gens as a mechanic, but the fact that Survivors will usually get at least some gens done and there's not much the Killer can do about it? That's not one of them.
And in a similar vein, there's often nothing a Killer can do to stop Sprint Burst or Lithe from activating; they can limit the impact of those perks by, say, herding the Survivor in a bad direction, but they can't eliminate the perk's impact completely. Again, that doesn't make them bad mechanics.
And DH is similar; even if it misses, the Killer usually had to waste time playing around it, potentially even giving up a pallet stun or window vault in the process. And its nature as a high-risk, high-reward perk means it doesn't need to activate every chase to be powerful.
So, what's the point I'm trying to make? There are mindgames around all of these things. Dead Hard's is more obvious than most, but given how frustrating it is for the Killer, how it denies basic gameplay options to the Killer, I really wouldn't call it a healthy or fun mindgame.
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@AverageKateMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366696#Comment_3366696
Wow we're still trying so hard to complain huh? Following your exact logic, why are killers still getting 3/4ks despite seeing so many DHs in these tournaments? You conveniently tried to gloss over the fact the DHs weren't enough to stop the tournament Oni from winning the whole thing. Clearly if people are getting kills despite DH existing, then obviously DH isn't the earth shattering perk that's saving impossible survivor games.
You guys want to complain about anything and everything so bad it's funny
You realize the Survivor team was only allowed to bring one Dead Hard; rather than, say, four?
But let's take this argument at face value: If the opposing team can still win against something, then that thing is fine. So, pre-nerf Moris, Nurse, Spirit, Blight, Freddy, Ruin, Corrupt Intervention, Pain Res-DMS, NOED, Thana, and Eruption were/are all fine. There's no shortage of videos of good Survivors winning against all of those things, after all.
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@AverageKateMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366686#Comment_3366686
It is hard when a majority of the time, it's not exactly hard to wait it out. And even if you can't wait it out, a lot of killers have either decent mobility or have anti loop tools.
Is it so hard for you guys to admit the actual problem with the game is the gen meta rather than malding at a perk that requires you to fail in chase and gets countered by deep wound, bad ping, and the dreaded waiting it out tech?
If it's that easy to counter it, why is it showing up- and getting value- in tournament finals? The tournaments that don't limit the perk to 1 per team often outright ban it against Killers other than Nurse or Blight.
Getting two hits in a short timeframe against good survivors is hard enough, but increase it to 3 with Dead Hard and there just isn't enough time to chase everyone without camping, tunneling, or 3-genning. And then Survivors get mad at you when you play with this in mind.
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@AverageKateMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366683#Comment_3366683
DS, Self Care, and Calm Spirit basically got gutted and 2 of those were meta perks. You guys are so desperate to cry victim over perks in a game to the point you had to create a thread using evidence that's not even supporting you just to cry Mald and seethe.
The meta itself has been gutted on BOTH sides so the fact you guys spew the same KiLlEr GoT gUtTeD crap is wild.
Hey, only one perk showed up in this patch's balance changes, and it wasn't a Survivor perk.
I'm fully willing to acknowledge that Eruption was a stupid perk to play against. Is it really so hard to do the same for a perk that punishes you for hitting Survivors?
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@AverageKateMain said:
Omg you guys cannot shut up about this. He literally still got a 4k after eating the DHs. If anything, all you did was prove how DH isn't the problem perk you think it is if people can activate it and still lose.
Honestly find something else to complain about
I'm not the one who keeps bumping this thread; y'all are. Why are you so desperate to hold onto one stupid perk? The Killer perk meta gets nerfed practically at the drop of a hat, but when a Survivor perk that's been in the game almost as long as Ruin has is called into question, it's too much?
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I think generators, as a main objective, are fundamentally flawed and are going to need a rework at some point. The last 3 gens are the only gens that matter if you can defend them. And 90 seconds to repair a gen is too short for the Killer to hold onto them in the early game, but too long for the Survivors to break a 3-gen in the late game.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366604#Comment_3366604
Besides some people saying it's not needed I don't see anyone jumping down the Op's throat.
As I mentioned in my post there are a number of red flags in their post. As a queer person myself I've delt with enough crap in my life to make me highly suspicious of their intent in how they worded their post.
Well, the responses to the thread are just as suspect to me as a neurodivergent person. Casual bigotry is something I've come to expect from virtually any multiplayer game with chat functionality, so acting like it isn't a problem and anyone who claims it is is just "begging for attention" is even more of a red flag.
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@AMOGUS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366587#Comment_3366587
No, there are some strange things in OP's thread, people are picking up on it and how it almost sounds like some bigot pretending to be LGBT+.
Like, "getting misgendered while being slugged on the ground"? DBD doesn't have voice coms, this sounds like a non-DBD player trying to basically concern troll. Their OP contradicts the game itself.
The only other thing I can think of is that TC is referencing a specific event, and since they heard someone talking to them while being slugged, I'm assuming they went to a bigoted streamer's twitch stream or something.
Not to mention that it's been 2 days and OP has been eerily silent.
Even if that were true, that doesn't excuse many of the responses I've seen in this thread. Having a badge with your preferred pronouns is pretty standard procedure for queer-friendly places, and suggesting that gamers aren't prone to bigotry is downright laughable.
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@viewfan said:
I respectfully disagree.
The last thing players in DBD are thinking about is being prejudiced towards other players because of their gender identity.
You haven't met a lot of female and/or trans gamers, I take it?
Just look at this thread; a genderfluid person getting talked down to by somewhere around 13 people for a simple QoL suggestion.
It's hilarious, but also sad, to see gamers claim they aren't bigoted while jumping down a trans person's throat for wanting to be out of the closet.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3365402#Comment_3365402
Hehehe. Yes we do.
- Go around searching chest or check for Gate location when being incap.
- Go do another Gen when incap
- If Meg's first chase down in 20sec, you should leave Gen at 19sec on Meg's second chase
- Stop doing Gen when a teammate in chase
- 25sec is fine, because 6sec Prove thyself is op
- Because its really weak against Swf, it should be devastating against Solo.
Were a few counter suggestions killers gave.
And yet there is not even one such thread on the front page. The closest I could find to anyone decrying the Eruption nerf was in Feedback, and that was suggesting a less-harsh nerf, rather than a reversion. And that one got ratio'd hard.
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Sounds good to me. I usually don't even bother going for hook grabs, it's a stupid mindgame. I usually just take the trade and move on.
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@Orochi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364827#Comment_3364827
Wow...just wow. You Killers really just have an excuse for everything. I love that it's okay for Killers to make all these terrible suggestions for Survivors to try to counter their stuff, but when legitimately good advice is given to you, every excuse under the sun comes out. This game really just makes yall miserable people.
Why don't you drop the "Us vs. Them" attitude, you don't hear Killers defending Eruption as fair or balanced.
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Because you can only use your one-shot once with those Killers; after that, the Survivor can just stay injured and get the DH anyway.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/367118/some-tips-to-counter-dh
You forgot the only REAL counter for that perk: hitting the unhookes survivor and tunnel him (deep wound = no dead hard)
My god, you're right. Why didn't I think of that sooner?
I'm sure survivors won't mind me tunneling out the first person I see every game.
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@Phasmamain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364645#Comment_3364645
Countering perks is a part of normal gameplay and most certainly won’t go away if DH is killed
For killers you’ll still have to counter SB (Which you can’t if it’s used effectively) and other exhaustion perks
For survivor they’ve had to counter totem builds (Ruindying) and PR DMS almost every game when they were the respective meta for killers. Even further back they had to play around spirit fury enduring when that was more popular or even getting into a locker/behind a gen vs BBQ
DH is annoying yes but it’s alternatives aren’t much more fun
I'd sooner play a hundred games against SB/Lithe than one more against DH.
DH is worse than uncounterable; it actively takes away gameplay options from the Killer. Suddenly you can't lunge or use your power anymore for fear of triggering Schrodinger's Dead Hard.
If it was uncounterable, it'd be just another Exhaustion perk and the main complaint about it would be just how strong it can be at its job. But as it is now, the insidious thing about it being "counterable" is that it's arguably not even a good thing. Killers just wanna swing when they've caught the Survivor, not wait behind them sniffing their butt.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364407#Comment_3364407
I don't but it's hard to argue against someone who denies facts.
It's like trying to argue with my conspiracy theorist mother, it isn't worth the effort.
When arguing with a fool, make sure he isn't doing the same thing. I assure you, I can be quite eloquent when someone gives me something to work with.
If you're used to arguing with conspiracy theorists, maybe you have some bad habits. Because there are very few credible arguments in favor of conspiracy theories and it isn't the brightest people making them.
@Tostapane said:
LMAO if those are comp players then i'm aganist cheaters all the time... Please, those survivors were nothing special. You could have done a better example op imo... If we put into the equation that in "tournaments" people are restricted in perks/items selection, this won't reflect at all the current state of the game and the HUGE issue that dead hard is
These are the community cup finals. Literally the only DbD tournament that's officially affiliated with BHVR. And my original point was debunking the old lie that anyone who swings into DH is a bad player. Of course this isn't a good example of DH's actual strength, given that it's restricted in tournaments, but what else am I to do?
If I post a video of a good player losing to DH, people will say they got outplayed so DH is fine. If I post a video of a good player winning against DH, that means Killers can win against it, so DH is also fine.
I tire of these games. I'm over here playing baseball while the people defending DH are playing Calvinball.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364394#Comment_3364394
Hmmm, DH nerf denier.
I thought you didn't like it when people did adhoms.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364342#Comment_3364342
Old Circle of Healing on Ironworks.
Or
Comp squad on Fractured Cowshed.
Impressive. But you know what doesn't require a full-on comp squad to be good, isn't remotely map-dependent and has so far escaped nerfs despite still being the #1 meta perk post-update? Dead Hard.
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364355#Comment_3364355
You quoted me but then... mentioned something someone else said...
I'm sorry to ask, but are you a bot?
Do you read the posts?
I am legit confused.
Well, I'm confused too. From the look of your initial reply to me, you were disagreeing with the OP about DH and SB (Which is in line with what I was arguing), but you only mentioned me and not them.
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364305#Comment_3364305
I disagree.
He responded to your concerns, in obvious good faith, if you actually read the post you wouldn't make that claim you just made.
That's where I'll call it out.
I treat every survivors as if they didn't have it at first because I hate losing to perks I haven't seen yet...
The amount of free games survivors gets on me for that makes me consider the uninstall button every days...
The fun I have when this singular perk don't show up is the ONLY reason I still play.
SB I can ignore and or play around. DH... I can't, there is no meaningful decision for a killer to make... always a silly gamble that we more often than not lose at higher levels of play because, you know, pressing E isn't hard unless you make excuses for it.
"Why do you hate me for having a different opinion?" is a non-argument. How am I to engage in good faith with a statement so absurdly reductive and misrepresentative of me that it could apply to any statement voicing any disagreement with the original post?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364318#Comment_3364318
He lost more time than he gained by waiting.
He should've swung when he was close and she would've gone down.
Like you said, I've been playing a long time. It's not that difficult to deal with. Otz was clearly trying to prove a point
If DH is really not that difficult to deal with, I'd hate to see what you actually do consider to be difficult.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364313#Comment_3364313
Otz had a couple opportunities to swing and make it unreactable.
I don't know why he didn't.
Because whether a swing is unreactable or not, the Killer has no way to know exactly when the E is going to come out. Survivors will often specifically try to hold DH for when the Killer least expects it.
And if you've been playing the game for this long, you already know all this. Playing dumb is unbecoming of you.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364268#Comment_3364268
She literally landed 0 Dead Hard's
You and I both know that she would have gone down MUCH earlier if Otz wasn't scared of the DH she was holding. If Otz wasn't "Just waiting it out".
What exactly are you hoping to prove by arguing in bad faith here?
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364015#Comment_3364015
You can't attack someone for having a differing opinion and then get upset when they tell you that's unreasonable.
I don't think you're arguing in good faith here.
You haven't addressed my actual argument at all, and you're accusing me of arguing in bad faith?
What I originally said was that "Dead Hard doesn't bother me personally, so it must be fine" is bad logic, and I even backed it up with examples.
Then you started going on this weird tirade about how "That's just like, your opinion, man".
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@Orochi said:
Anyone saying it's easy to play around is being disingenuous, but so are the Killers that act like every DH is used to perfection. A lot of the games I play and streams I watch see Survivors messing up their DH or having it baited out without losing that much time a hilarious amount.
Part of the issue with DH is that for it to make an impact on the game, it doesn't have to be used to perfection. Any chase may see it used correctly, but none of them must. The mere threat of DH drastically reduces the Killer's options in chase. You can't lunge, or they could E on reaction. You can't use Huntress hatchets, or any other power that can be reacted to with E.
Schrodinger's Dead Hard lets you make it to pallets and windows where you would otherwise be dead to rights. Even before it's actually used, it can extend a chase considerably. Which is one reason why top-tier Killers often don't even bother trying to bait it out.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4Q7MDmCA6E@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364036#Comment_3364036
I'd say that there were likely other aspects of their gameplay that was poor.
However, you didn't post that scenario, so I literally CANNOT say.
And here we have Otzdarva, Killer main with thousands of hours famed for his 50+ Killer win streaks, jumping through every possible hoop to bait out DH and looking like an idiot for trying.
inb4 "He got outplayed".
@Zeidoktor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363998#Comment_3363998
To be perfectly honest after Dead Hard thread number [insert 7 digit number of choice here], I legitimately don't care. I've never had any real level of dislike towards Dead Hard myself and the perk is undeniably more balanced than it used to be, even if it's not necessarily balanced, period.
Hell, the change made to Dead Hard isn't too far from my own idea at the time of "your don't get the 'Dead Hard for Distance' unless you actually tank the hit", so I can't really complain about the outcome.
I just sent take them very seriously anymore, especially if the evidence provided runs counter to the intended point.
What you'd need is a video of a competent killer losing my just to Dead Hard, but to abuse of Dead Hard. Losing to Survivors consistently engineering situations to get value that the Killer can do little or nothing about.
See the above video. Nancy could have easily not had DH at all and the clip would have played out exactly the same. I'd say that qualifies as "abuse".
Though if you want clips of top-tier Killer players, especially tournament-winning Killers, losing outright to abuse of Dead Hard specifically, that's a bit of a tall order, given that Dead Hard is banned or limited in most DbD tournament rulesets, for some reason.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364164#Comment_3364164
you see, those are reasons I do think we need to look at why DH is so powerful and how it can be tweaked to be less of a looming threat, because I too think DH is too strong right now, as it is. I just disagree with the sentiment that DH needs to be deleted from the game - there's a good place for a perk that allows you to situationally avoid one instance of damage when played right. the one we have right now is slightly-to-moderately too good at it. your initial "arguments," if you could call them that, were weak. this post was much stronger and more reasonable.
My initial argument was based on my experience posting videos on this forum, or otherwise voicing complaints about DH on this forum; if someone loses to DH, they got outplayed so it's not a problem. If someone wins against DH, that means Killers can win against it, so it's also not a problem. So... what the heck am I supposed to do? End every match with a 2k?
Which is one reason I have no patience for someone who claims my video showing the Oni's comp performance proves nothing, or that it proves Dead Hard is fine. No matter what hoops I jump through, it's never enough.
At any rate, I don't see DH getting fixed in such a way that it isn't annoying to Killers. It's annoying for many of the same reasons Eruption was; it punishes you- harshly- just for trying to progress your primary objective. It's not like Endurance is a completely unworkable concept, mind you; I don't recall seeing anyone complain about BT basekit anytime recently, and indeed I don't mind it either. But BT works because it's predictable and easily avoidable; you know exactly where and when you need to worry about it, and the Survivor can't just hold onto it forever.
And to share some points from game design lectures I've seen, I have two lessons to impart:
1) "Don't confuse 'interesting' with 'fun'". Adding more complexity to a game (Like DH does) is interesting. But "interesting" and "fun" can be two very different things. Games can provide two different types of stimulation: Intellectual stimulation ("Hmm, how should I play around his Dead Hard?") and emotional stimulation ("Haha, yes, taste my knife, pitiful survivors!"). Intellectual stimulation can be fun, but more often than not, emotional stimulation is what you should prioritize as a designer; visceral thrills and/or emotional satisfaction are what keep people coming back to your game.
And Dead Hard, on the Killer's end, can make the game more interesting, but the number one complaint I see about Dead Hard, myself included, is "I just wanna stab the Survivor without running through a damn checklist". This isn't fun.
I've seen a LOT of people, my past self included, who have totally missed this concept.
Source:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHHg99hwQGY&t=790s2) Good counterplay is more complicated than people think. There's some subjectivity to this, but people oftentimes can instinctively tell the difference between good counterplay and bad counterplay, though they have trouble putting it into words. Generally, good counterplay needs to fulfill the following criteria: Is counterplay possible? Is the need for counterplay clear? Is the counterplay interesting/fun? And by interesting/fun, I mean, is the counterplay varied and nuanced? Does it increase or decrease the number of choices available to your opponent?
So, positive example first: Wesker. Is counterplay possible? Yes, his dashes are not unavoidable unless you seriously messed up. Is the need for counterplay clear? Yes, there's a charge-up time with audio-visual cues. Is the counterplay interesting? Yes. There are many possible ways for you to try and juke his dashes, it can often be more engaging to play against him than against a standard M1 Killer.
And a positive survivor example: Pallets. Is counterplay possible? Yes, you can often get a hit at a pallet depending on how you both play it. Is the need for counterplay clear? Yes, the undropped pallet is there, clear as day. Is the counterplay interesting? Yes, you can respect the pallet, try to swing through it, try to throw your power through it, or try to mindgame it. And after it's dropped, you can break it, bloodlust it, throw your power over it, or try to mindgame it.
And for a negative example, Knight (Even though I'm kinda biting the hand that feeds me here, given that I main him). Is counterplay possible? Yes, hold W. Is the need for counterplay clear? Yes, there's lots of audio/visual cues. Is the counterplay interesting? No. For the most part, your options in chase are whittled down to holding W and hoping the next tile has something to help you lose the Killer.
And Dead Hard. Is counterplay possible? For the most part, yes. Is the need for counterplay clear? Sort of, if you haven't seen any other Exhaustion perks. Is the counterplay interesting? No. In many scenarios, Schrodinger's Dead Hard significantly reduces the number of options available to the Killer. Where they previously might have been able to go for a lunge or use their power to try and nab a hit, DH is there to punish them for it. There are so many clips where the Killer so desperately wants to swing, but they can't because of Dead Hard, and the Survivor knows it. And because Schrodinger's Dead Hard weakens the Killer's chase so much, it's common even for skilled Killers to just say "#### it" and swing immediately.
Source:
Throughout the 40-year history of video games, most core games have had a single-player focus. Great multiplayer games appeared from time to time, but they were usually the exception rather than the rule. Today, most core games include some... -
@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363971#Comment_3363971
As it turns out I have never said that "the counterplay to DH is simple and anyone who swings into it is just a noob" or anything remotely close to it, because I don't believe that. I said that everyone makes mistakes, including high-level killers. The reason you can't form a coherent belief system from what you think I've said, is because you've either seen things other people have said and falsely attributed them to me, or just imagined me saying things I didn't.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean when you say "my claim" is unfalsifiable - specifically which claim are you talking about? You said you couldn't discern a coherent set of beliefs from (what you imagined were) my arguments, how would you then know what claim I was making, much less know if that claim could be proven wrong?
The reason I reacted in the specific way I did is because your original thread about Oni and this followup one show both a lack of respect for survivor players and a lack of attention to the counterplay on both sides with the game you chose to highlight. Your post is honestly a much milder example than other posts I've seen; from the way I've seen other killer players talk about it you'd think DH was like Mettle of Man without the protection hit requirements, activates whenever you would be knocked down.
With regards to respect to survivor players, consider your idea that top-level players hitting a DH as being astronomically unlikely (or whatever your specific phrasing was). Keep in mind the fact that when I say "Just wait it out" I mean it not as a sure-win strategy but as a general philosophical approach to chases, and think about the following: It's an inaccuracy for a killer to swing into Dead Hard, but it is similarly an inaccuracy to mistime a DH as a survivor. Going in for a hit on an injured survivor with DH is a zero sum game where whoever wins the read, wins the interaction. Why is it that you assume that a Killer hitting a DH would be so unlikely, but a survivor mistiming a DH would not be? Is a top level killer just inherently better at the game than a survivor?
As far as the game you chose to highlight, you need to consider that DH excels in countering hits that need to come within a certain time frame, such as Nurse's blink, Blight's rush, or also Oni's demon dash. Mechanically speaking, DH does counter that part of Oni's power; on some level, I do understand how that would be frustrating to face, but I honestly think that's the best use case scenario for the perk, avoiding a highly projected hit. You also need to keep in mind that in order to keep DH available to use it against Oni power, the survivor has to stay injured (since the dash is an insta-down), meaning by keeping your perk available you're feeding Oni his power faster. I would argue that the two demon dash DH hits were perfectly healthy for the game and fine, because they have the same mechanic as Plague of choosing between healing up and giving a power spike, or denying the power but staying broken. Given that 2 of the DH's the Oni hit were basically unmissable but came at other costs, I think it's reasonable to say the Oni only got outplayed on 2 DH, one of which was basically just him being unlucky and losing a couple coin flips by happening to chase the person who had the perk without knowing.
That said, I do think it is worth looking at ways of limiting DH to primarily counter those "easily anticipated hits" and being less oppressive right under pallets and so on, and to be less powerful when you don't know your opponent has it. I mainly object to way in which you hyperfocus on the way it negatively impacts killers while ignoring the skill expression of survivors, ignoring the ways survivors can mess it up, and ignore the ways in which killers can't always guarantee bypassing DH but can at least buy themself more of a chance.
It's true, maybe these arguments are contradictory because they're coming from different people. Maybe person A is saying "Just wait it out 4Head" and person B is saying "DH creates an intricate mindgame that is good for the game".
But here's the thing; y'all have very fundamentally different beliefs, and you're so passionate about them that you'll jump on any thread which voices even a hint of disagreement, and yet you're always yelling at me and never yelling at each other. And often, on a long enough timeline, if I keep arguing with person A, they'll eventually make a person B argument, and vice versa.
It kinda seems like you're playing games, and I'm the opposing team, and anyone who's against me is your ally. And you're not really taking a position, but rather claiming to believe in whatever would need to be true in order to score points against me.
But I digress. The claim I'm talking about is "Dead Hard is fine". Or if you prefer, "Dead Hard doesn't need to be deleted". Because that's what this whole argument boils down to, in the end; we can tackle individual supporting arguments until the end of time, but with a claim as broad as "Dead Hard is fine", at what point do you throw in the towel and say "Dead Hard is not fine"? Because you can always move the goalposts and come up with more rationalizations for why Dead Hard must still be fine no matter how many individual arguments are debunked. For reference, see my OP.
Okay, so DH is a zero-sum game. It's a pure 50/50 for who wins the mindgame. And indeed, tournament-level Killers seem to M1 into DH roughly 50% of the time when the surv isn't Exhausted.
Ignoring that second-guessing every swing you make and waiting behind the Survivor is incredibly unfun gameplay, here's the other problem: The mindgame isn't happening in a vacuum. The existence of DH changes how the Killer must approach every other aspect of the chase. Suddenly you can't lunge or use your power anymore, and that can be very costly. Schrodinger's Dead Hard allows Survivors to make it to pallets or windows when they'd otherwise be dead to rights, and that can extend chases considerably even before E has actually been pressed.
Anyone who's played Killer for any length of time knows that the difference between a lunge and a quick swing can easily be the difference between a hit and a pallet stun, so a chase where lunging is not viable can easily go on for an extra 15 seconds or more. And again, all this is happening BEFORE Dead Hard actually comes out in the chase. Which is one reason why, as in the matches shown, skilled Killers will often say "#### it" and not really bother playing around DH. Which kinda negates the whole point of the perk.
Look, I wouldn't be as harsh on Dead Hard if Survivors had no other good options in terms of perks, but they do have other options. There's no shortage of good Exhaustion perks out there, and the number can only grow as time goes on. And dodging an attack with a 99'd Sprint Burst or walking 40 seconds in chase is way more impressive to me than pressing a button. And it's easy to feel robbed by DH when the Killer often had to make a skilled play to get into a position to swing in the first place, and DH just cancels it out.
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I know full well that you've already seen such statistics. Glad to see you argue in bad faith, though.