Monlyth
Monlyth
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@Eelanos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432514#Comment_3432514
Killers have entire builds about getting another chance right at the end game with NOED, NWO, Bloodwarden and the like. There's even videos of killers using Bloodwarden to go from a 0 to a 4k. Are they extreme cases? Yes. Do they still have a chance to win after the gates are open? Also yes.
Survivor end game builds don't prevent them from losing an already lost game, but they give them a bigger chance to at least escape. Survivors only get the satisfaction of escaping a lost game, while killers get the chance to transform defeats into victories. Which is fine by me, but if I'm the last one remaining, I don't want my only gameplay option to be walking towards the killer and stare at them like "You got games on your phone? 🧍" and hoping to God they don't just nod at me for the entirety of the EGC.
Plus, camping the gates will always trump survivor end game builds because the maps are tiny and the walls are at an arm's distance from the center, with close to no LoS breakers in some maps. No amount of Wake up! and Sole Survivor will prevent a camping killer from getting the last kill.
Hatch is almost a nonexistent feature that either spawns at your feet and you get it or it spawns somewhere else and the killer inevitably closes it (or worse, they camp it).
I don't need a win, I just want a chance. A chance at escaping. A chance at being discovered. Standing still to make me lose is not what I want.
When it comes to playing killer, I do play killer. I've been playing killer since 6.1.0 because I was getting fed up of playing matches that were over before 2 gens popped, and now it's my "The matches today are absolute garbage, I want to get some easy BP" role. Nowadays I play survivor/killer around 60/40. Which is the reason why I don't understand people feeling entitled to a 4k so badly. I sweat for the 2k, I try for the 3k and whatever happens to the 4k is up to chance. I don't give up (nor do I usually gift hatches) but I don't really care much either because I've already won regardless.
As far as the game is concerned, any escape is a win for you. Both the hatch and the EGC are a chance to turn a loss into a win.
And just by nature of spawning randomly anywhere on the map, it's pretty close to a 50/50 as to who will find the hatch first. The Killer can run a little faster, but that's hardly a guarantee they'll find the hatch first if it doesn't spawn on top of you, especially since Survivors have a better camera.
If having a chance is really that important to you, you can use keys to open the hatch. You can do gens if the Killer's camping the hatch.
I think you should really consider playing more Killer if being helpless as a Survivor bothers you this much. Not every horror movie ends with the victims even getting a chance to make it out alive. Some horror games end with the protagonist dying no matter what. Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is simply a lamp placed there as a cruel prank to give the victims false hope. Sometimes the Killer drags out the victim's demise, just for the fun of it. There are plenty of mechanics in place to ensure the match doesn't truly go on forever.
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@Nicholas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432514#Comment_3432514
No, it isn't, it can be but people can decide to not be a team player. A soloist can have success and escape without ever being helped or helping anyone. Even so, the last survivor is a solo effort that should be more challenging but never impossible.
You're too focused on the idea of escaping, I never said anything about escaping or winning! What happened prior to that is immaterial. It doesn't matter how well or bad anyone played because the game doesn't factor that in. The point remains, the exit gate placement can be impossible for both the last survivor and The Killer. The hatch is luck based, sometimes it spawns under you and you can close it or jump in! Does the exit gate also need to be about luck?
And as we've established, you define "Impossible" pretty differently based on whether it's Killers or Survivors we're talking about, so your point is pretty moot. It's always technically possible to escape through the exit gates if the Killer makes a silly mistake, just like how it's always technically possible to 4K so long as all 4 Survivors are still in the trial.
If it's really that important that you always have a chance to escape, why don't you just equip Left Behind and a key?
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@Eelanos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432510#Comment_3432510
I meant that "games" as in "videogames", trying to point out that there's very few videogames, that feature a gameplay segment where you lost and you have to manually do a walk of shame towards your enemy to reset the sequence.
Usually when you lost, the game forces you into a death cutscene or spawns the enemy next to you and instantly kills you. The few times that hasn't happened to me it was generally due to a glitch or an oversight by the devs, and I didn't kill myself against the enemy unless the game used no save states (which only happened... what, once? Twice, long ago?)
Well yeah, it's almost like this is a survival horror game where part of the fun is supposed to be watching the Killer brutalize you when they catch you. I mean, Resident Evil 4 has some long and downright egregious death scenes when the zombies get you. Why do you think Survivors line up to get Mori'd on the PTB when a new Killer is released?
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@Eelanos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432453#Comment_3432453
How many games have you played where you have literally 0 chance of winning and you had to manually feed yourself to the enemy.
When a player has 0 chance of winning, the game is immediately brought to an end, save exceptions like the game getting glitched and getting you stuck and you having to forcefully killing yourself to restart the sequence.
No one, and I repeat, no one at all likes going through the humiliation of handing themselves to the enemy to finish a match they've poured their entire effort on.
As always, this is better seen if you flip it around. Imagine if you're playing killer and you lost so hard against a SWF that by the time EGC starts they supress your attacks and you're powerless to stop survivors blinding and teabagging you. Right now you can push them out, but in this situation you're powerless. What are you going to do? Walk to the exit gates and kindly ask them to leave? Or are you gonna be petty and look to a wall to avoid giving them the satisfaction of humiliating you? You've already lost, you're not gonna play their game. Just like when survivors hide in EGC.
Killers are always so entitled. "Survivors shouldn't heal that fast! Survivors shouldn't do gens that fast! Survivors shouldn't be able to counter face camping! Survivors shouldn't, shouldn't, shouldn't! Why do survivors want a chance to win? Maybe don't play the game LOL", but when there's a tiny fraction of a chance that they are the ones that don't have a chance, they become massive crybabies. "Boo-hoo! I cannot counter DH when it's used for distance!" "Now it's nerfed, but now I can't counter it on pallets!" "Now it's nerfed, but I still have to wait to make sure they don't have it!" "Nooo, survivors are sabotaging hooks and I can't hook them! I feel entitled to this hook, I won the chase!!!!" "Nooo, survivors shouldn't be able to pick themselves up! Otherwise I have to waste a tiny fraction of my power on hooking people!!!"
I want you to stop thinking like an entitled kid and think for half a second how would you like to play a game where you spend your time with literally 0% chance of winning, just being someone else's play thing. Literally school bullying, the videogame.
In a game that's already given you two separate chances to win, a third is still not enough for you? Killers wish they could get another chance after camping their endgame hook fails (And there's no guarantee they'll get even that, of course).
I play plenty of Survivor myself, and I really don't give a crap about dying. It goes with the territory when you queue as solo. More importantly for me, there isn't nearly as much pressure on me to succeed, and contributing to the team adequately is pretty simple; gens don't run away from you. It's a much less stressful role for me.
If the possibility of being helpless really bothers you that much, why don't you just play Killer? Because I thought it was pretty obvious that Survivors are supposed to be ultimately defenseless against the Killer.
@Nicholas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432497#Comment_3432497
The devs have said it can be a team game or a solo experience. It's up to you how to play. I agree with you, especially on that person getting the hatch without doing anything all game. It would be interesting if you had to earn the hatch, but I don't know what that would play like. Your situation sounds hopeless but The Killer allowed it to get to a hopeless state. The last survivor doesn't have much control over what the other players do. They also can't influence the spawning of hatch and exit gates and how you played up until that point is immaterial. And as killer, you can play exceptional and dominate and find the hatch and close it but the gates are so far apart that it's impossible for you to do anything. That also isn't good! Like I said, I don't think it should be impossible for either side. And sometimes it is.
Survivor is explicitly a co-op role. It's right there on the game's home page. And whether you play solo or SWF, you're all still, by definition, on the same team. And being on a team comes with the good and bad points; in Team Fortress 2, you can be the best Soldier on the planet, but if your teammates are potatoes, then the opposing team can just overwhelm you with sheer numbers. But you can also be a potato Soldier who gets carried because your teammates actually know what they're doing.
I mean, unless you spend the entire match hiding in some bushes near the outskirts of the map until the hatch spawns, touching the gens intermittently to prevent the AFK crows from appearing, you're ultimately still at your teammates' mercy. At any time, the Killer might find you and down you and your teammates might leave you to die on hook.
If you want your individual skill to be the main deciding factor in whether you win or lose, you picked the wrong role. And if you don't like losing to random chance, you picked the wrong game. You and your team have had 2 chances to escape by the time the hatch is closed, and you blew it. If the third is not to your liking, then too bad. At some point, you have to let the opposing team win a game when they've won a game.
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@Nicholas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432487#Comment_3432487
I have no control over the other three survivors, assuming everyone was playing as a team anyway. Even then, I've seen matches fall apart with all four survivors alive. Which goes back to my point, that these different scenarios aren't impossible. On the other hand you are in total control as The Killer. You're a team of one. I already addressed that point, the exit gates shouldn't be impossible for anyone. Both the survivors and The Killer. Maybe they should be responsive? The placement changes based on The Killer.
Yeah, it's a 4v1. It's a team game, and that means it is possible to make no mistakes and still lose. Conversely, it is also possible to make multiple stupid mistakes and still win. Kinda like when the last Survivor gets hatch despite spending most of the match running around being useless. Don't like it? There's the "Play as Killer" button.
Again, if the exit gates are open and you're playing against an M1 Killer with no instadowns, it's the Survivors' game to lose. Literally all you have to do in order to escape is run straight towards the exit gates. If the Survivors can't do that, that says more about them than about the game.
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@Nicholas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432481#Comment_3432481
Yes, it is possible. I can't help it if you perhaps lack skill, play smarter, prevent them from getting to the end game. That's the point, it might be hard but it's not impossible. Just because you feel it's hopeless, doesn't mean it's impossible. At least you have control over your anecdote. No one has control over the exit gate placement. I don't get to play well and prevent the gates from spawning on the same wall or in a position that can be watched from one location. Huge difference.
Everything you just said can be applied to the scenario you complain about. If you don't like losing to bad exit gate placement, then don't let the Killer get 3 kills.
Besides, you think you're the only one who can lose to bad exit gate placement? The difference between getting an endgame hook on the other side of the map from the exit gates and getting one right next to an opened exit gate is huge.
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@Nicholas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432478#Comment_3432478
You're grasping at straws but that's fine. When things are possible, anything can happen! They have to at least be possible 😅
The guy who calls it "possible" to get a 4K as an M1 Killer when the exit gates are open and all 4 Survivors are healthy- without any form of Exposed, I might add- is saying I'm grasping at straws. When I need a big hit of copium, I'll know who to call.
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@Nicholas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432472#Comment_3432472
Even if those situations feel hopeless, and sometimes they seem insurmountable, they aren't impossible. Killers can still get a 4K but I agree that it's less likely, but at least it's possible.
Boy, that "possible" is really putting in some work there.
So long as we're counting on the opposing team to play like complete idiots and make game-throwing blunders, I guess we can agree that it's not impossible to escape with two exit gates right next to one another, either.
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@Nicholas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432461#Comment_3432461
That's a matter of skill. If the survivors were able to do all five generators and open both gates, then it's going to be difficult for The Killer to overcome that, but it's not impossible. It can definitely feel hopeless and some people will give up on either side, but that feeling doesn't mean it's impossible. It's still possible to get a 4k, you don't even need the right perks or an instadown.
On the other hand, I have no control over the exit gate placement. It has nothing to do with my skill, or what I have or haven't accomplished in the match. I could solo all five generators and the game doesn't make a distinction. The gates are in place and in some cases, ime most of the time, are so close that The Killer can watch both at the same time, thus making it impossible. The fact that something is impossible leads to a feeling of despair and hopelessness. However, feeling hopeless about a situation doesn't mean it's impossible.
Uh, no. It is often physically impossible for the Killer to win unless the Survivors mess up horribly. In the time it takes an M1 Killer to hit a Survivor twice (Assuming no protection hits, which is being very generous), a Survivor can easily run all the way to the exit gates from a pretty long distance. I know because I have a great deal of personal experience in this department.
Without a power that lets them push far past the normal limitations of an M1 Killer, the Killer is almost always just completely screwed if the exit gates are open and all 4 Survivors are healthy. Most Killers can only subtract so many health states in such a short timeframe.
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@Nicholas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432453#Comment_3432453
I didn't say anything about fair. I said it's impossible, and hopeless. The game shouldn't ever feel hopeless, sure it can feel more difficult or challenging depending on the state of things, but not impossible. Luck shouldn't be involved here, the Gates shouldn't be in a position where it's impossible for either party to achieve success. I never said anything about being entitled or expected to escape. This is why it's important to read, so that you can understand what people are saying. I know there are a lot of people that think they are entitled to escape because they powered the doors or those that think they're entitled to a 4k because they killed three people, I'm not in those camps. And I recognize that some elements are RNG, but that doesn't mean everything has to be. Disagree or agree, that's fine. The whole point is to promote discussion. I don't know what people think until they post and the devs don't know what anyone thinks until we do.
The game should never feel hopeless? Okay then, here's a situation where the Killer feels hopeless: The exit gates are open and all the Survivors are alive. No one is injured (Perhaps thanks to Adrenaline), and even if it was physically possible for the Killer to down someone before they reach the exit gates, Protection hits will put a stop to that.
So should every Killer just get a free NOED every time all 4 Survivors are up and running to the exit gates? The picture's pretty grim for the Killer at that point; the only thing that'll save them is an instadown power (Which they'd need to bring beforehand), or the Survivors messing up horribly.
At some point, you have to let the opposing team win a game when they've won the game.
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@Nicholas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432431#Comment_3432431
As I already said, impossible means no chance. This isn't even about luck, skill or how slim a possibility. Sometimes the exit gates are impossibly close to open. And as I already addressed twice, you're building your position on the fact that the survivors didn't complete the five generators or that they even had a chance at finding the hatch. I disagree that anyone has a right or is entitled to anything in the game. You seem to think the killer is entitled to an easy kill.
And this is nothing to do with single player games, so there's no need for conflation. My point is really clear, you don't have to agree with it but it's clear. There is no ambiguity in this topic. And the devs have indicated it's not a team game, it can be but it can also be a solo experience. That is for the survivors to decide.
If the gates are "impossibly" close together, then you got unlucky with the spawns. That's how luck works.
If you're going to talk about entitlement, why do you feel entitled to a "fair" chance to escape every match, even after the hatch is closed? It's already close to a 50/50 as to whether the Killer or Survivor will find the hatch first, so why do you feel entitled to an EGC where you always have a chance to escape?
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@Nicholas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432418#Comment_3432418
That's not even remotely true. Every match is different, you speak about them as if they are a monolith. I already acknowledged that 2 years ago the devs said they weren't worried about exit gates but that it was something they might consider in the future. I think two years is a long time, perhaps they agree that nothing needs to be changed. That's the point of these topics on the official forums.
Even in your scenario, let's say you managed to get a clean getaway. You creep your way back to one of the gates, what does the killer do? Go back to the vantage point to watch both gates. Like I said, The Killer becomes the gatekeeper, they don't have a need to search or chase you. They just have to make sure you don't go to the gate. This assumes you accomplish all of this with sufficient time to even complete the opening sequence.
And some say that that's fair, perhaps. But that's just an example. Since you seem to think that camping the exit gate is the key to escaping. News flash, it isn't!
Yeah, your chances of success are slim, very slim, often requiring the Killer to make serious mistakes, or for the RNG to turn out very favorably for the Survivor. As it should be; the Killer has stopped the Survivors from completing the gens AND found the hatch first. I think they've earned the right to an easy kill every now and then, unless you'd prefer they all slug for the 4K instead?
In single-player games, you're supposed to always have a chance at victory, to never be put in a no-win situation. But Dead by Daylight is a 4v1 where Survivors are supposed to stand together or die alone, and by the time the hatch has closed, they have very clearly failed to do the former. In a team game, you're supposed to win or lose as a team. If you were hoping for a single-player game where only your personal survival skills are important, then...
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@Nicholas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432396#Comment_3432396
There's no way to make a mistake when all you have to do is stand in one spot and watch both gates. Impossibility precludes chance, when something is impossible it simply cannot be done. Sometimes it feels hopeless, and perhaps that is by design, the devs should offer us insight into the process.
That's not an impossible scenario. All you gotta do is camp one of the gates and wait for the Killer to close the hatch, or get the Killer to chase you, lose them, and then run back to the gates.
The devs have already answered this. You just didn't like the answer: You've already had two chances to escape, and missed both. If you're expecting anything better than slim chances of success, that's just egregious.
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@MeanieDeeny said:
I'm a killer main, but i've been grinding survivor more lately..and I can agree, it's bad.
Last night I was live streaming on Twitch and ahd a Trickster (who apparently had zero shame)..hook me, I got unhooked, downed me, hooked me..I got unhooked, I ran..he chased..downed me and killed me. No time to run, no time to heal. It was pretty discouraging. Almost every match, at least one person was tunneled immediately out. I understand gen rushing is a problem, but I don't agree with tunneling and camping immediately at five gens. Gross.
The thing is, DbD is a game of snowballing. Give your opponent any momentum, and it can very easily spiral out of control.
Case in point, I was playing an Artist game where I got two hooks at once, at 4 gens. And with the help of proxy camping, I ended up getting both of them on death hook before long, and they still needed to save both of them.
At this point, the game was in the bag for me if I didn't let up on them and continued proxy camping. But instead, I was feeling merciful and chose to chase a Survivor that was clearly trying to bait me away from the hooks. I let them unhook and reset, and continued chasing this Survivor through a tile that would take forever for me to catch them in.
That decision cost me the entire game. All the gens popped in short order, and I wound up with zero kills thanks in part to Adrenaline.
So, yeah. Give your opponent an inch, and they can take a mile.
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@Nicholas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432364#Comment_3432364
Impossible and odds stacked against are two different things.
Indeed. And no matter how close together the gates may be, there's still plenty of opportunity for the Killer to slip up, or for the random numbers to break in your direction. Maybe the hatch spawned far away from the exit gates and you happened to be standing right next to one when it was closed.
If you're looking for a way to escape that'll work every time, that's not going to happen. DbD is a team game full of RNG; it is possible, especially as a Survivor, to make no mistakes and still lose.
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The devs have made it pretty clear that the odds are supposed to be stacked against the last Survivor after the Hatch is closed. By that point, the Survivors have already had two separate chances to escape (Gens, hatch), and failed both.
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Yeah, hook states are pretty important for the Killer to keep track of even if you're not tunneling. It's common for Killers to get baited into chasing the one Survivor who isn't on death hook if they don't keep track of hook states, for instance.
Or, you may not be going out of your way to hard tunnel off the hook, but when you've spotted two Survivors at once and one of them is on death hook while the other isn't, the one who isn't on death hook is simply unimportant if your goal is to secure kills.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3431978#Comment_3431978
Not sure how you think proxy camping is healthy for the game. Sometimes needed sure but it's hardly healthy.
Proxy camping causes the hooked Survivor to be treated as a strategic point that encourages the Killer and Survivors to interact with each other, with room for interesting choices on both sides. When do we unhook? Where should I position myself to catch the unhooker? Is it safe for me to go patrol the nearest gens? The Killer and Survivors end up doing an intricate dance where the Killer is trying to squeeze as many hits as possible out of the unhook, and the Survivors are trying to get the unhook and get out of there without getting downed.
Facecamping, by contrast, encourages the Killer and Survivors to ignore each other as much as possible. Do gens, Reassurance, rinse, repeat. When you're out of Reassurances, swarm the hook, and repeat the whole process again.
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The timer ticks more slowly if Survivors get near the hook, it doesn't affect proxy camping, and it turns off in the endgame.
So if you were facecamping in scenarios where no one was coming for an unhook and there were still gens left unfinished, then I'm sorry to say, but it really is a skill issue, OP. If you really want to win against good Survivors, you can't use facecamping as a crutch; only when it's clearly necessary. And these changes reflect that.
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@jeffkillsyou96 said:
Well there’s always bamboozle but I agree a lot of annoying loops that favor survivors exist
Well, sometimes even Bamboozle isn't enough. Sometimes the Window is so strong that the Survivor only needs one vault to waste a huge amount of the Killer's time. And sometimes it can chain into more windows.
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I think it's toxic behavior at the exit gates that makes Killers want to be toxic to the next group of Survivors they meet. Because if they're getting taunted at the exit gates, it's already too late for the Killer to retaliate against that particular group of Survivors.
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@Brokenbones said:
Caring about the other sides fun =/= Throwing games or making bad decisions
To me, if you care about your opponents fun you'll not go out of your way to do things that are clearly intended to BM or cause tilt like tbagging/clicking/w&sing/hitting on hook and so on.
As survivor, if you win, great - take your escape and go next. Don't drag it out by sitting in the gate tbagging/clicking and so on
As Killer If you win, great - take your win and go next. Don't drag it out by bleeding survivors out for 3 minutes while repeatedly pressing the w and s keys.
And of course don't make an ass of yourself in the endgame chat. I find a bit of banter is fine, it's not like taking the game too seriously is good for you anyway.
I'm sure a lot of survivor and killer players alike wouldn't care as much about losing if there wasn't this cringe "gloating" that goes on from their opponents. Sometimes it is really satisfying to get that really annoying survivor or make a killer trying to focus you out mad but just leave it in the game.
This should be its own thread, tbh. This deserves to be broadcast far and wide. I never hit on hook, I never bleed out survivors just to waste their time, I never facecamp on the first hook (Only after the exit gates are powered, when there's not much else to do, really), I never tunnel if it isn't the correct play, I never dance on a downed Survivor, I never camp the hatch, but it's never enough.
It's one thing to play optimally in a way that the other side doesn't like. It's another to go out of your way to upset them in a way that offers no tangible gameplay benefits.
And every time I consider playing mercifully, I also consider that the Survivors most likely won't thank me for it. My only reward will be teabags at the exit gates, or an agonizing wait in the EGC. On Killer, running into toxic Survivors is the rule and not the exception. Survivors seem utterly incapable of just taking their W and moving on.
It's one reason I find it much more relaxing to play Survivor; a Killer who does genuinely toxic things in-game is a rarity in my matches. The NOED facecamper or the hook-hitter (Often both at the same time) appears in maybe 1 out of every 20 games. It stands out in my mind when it happens.
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@1ettuce said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3410271#Comment_3410271
Even then it isn't always gonna be guaranteed. I agree that the times when it is guaranteed are a problem but what you said was a problem (having to treat every survivor like they have it unless you can rule it out) is not
Sure it is. Even if you ignore that waiting every chase on every Killer isn't fun, it completely shuts down lunges as an option. And lunges are a pretty core gameplay element.
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@liamdicaprio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3409127#Comment_3409127
depends if the killer fall for it, you are still able to wait it out. just have patience?
when i played killer i rarely fell for deadhard since people use it when expected...
You can't wait it out when it's used at pallets or windows, in any situation where you have to either lunge or give up the hit entirely.
And if your experience is truly that barely anyone does this, then I'm sorry to break the news to you: You are playing bad Survivors. Which means the game has determined that you are bad at Killer. Like, I'm not that good and it happened basically every time I ran into a DH user, so I have no idea where people are getting this notion from.
The perk was meta for over half a year even after the rework. The nerf was well-deserved by any metric you could ask for. Just get over it? Acting like it wasn't strong makes you seem like you're either being dishonest or stupid.
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I think they need to bite the bullet and give her an actual chase power. Then make her drones wander around the map randomly instead of being stationary.
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More than any other Survivor perk, Dead Hard was a crutch perk. I saw so many Survivors over the years who would have died several times over without Dead Hard. It's really not that skillful to press "E" when you're about to lose a chase.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
Hell no, zombies are 90% useless. I want reliable power, not rolling a dice every game.
This would make her really boring.
She's already really boring.
And zombies do a lot of work for Nemmy, you just can't see most of it. And Skully would have 4 of them.
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@Mystic_Mizu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399642#Comment_3399642
Don't get me wrong, I play killer too, but I play ranged killers so I never had a lot of experience playing with Bloodlust. I just don't think that most killers need it, for the fact that killers already have powers that can catch survivors from a distance. Nurse, Huntress, Blight, Deathslinger, Trickster, Legion (can already run), Dredge (can teleport to lockers and can teleport back to his position), Wraith (is super fast while invisible, and with add-ons can uncloak really fast), Pig (can dash) and Hillbilly. Bloodlust has no reason being on these killers.
I can say that from personal experiences, thus forming my opinions, which I don't need the most researched analysis for, because they're opinions, and I'm saying so from my experiences. I would be all for removing Bloodlust if that meant less pallets were available.
Which is why using your power makes you reset Bloodlust. What's the problem?
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I like the TR music, it reminds me of the Zerg's theme music in Starcraft, but I think the chase music itself needs to be more than a 3-second loop. For reference, Wesker's chase music is a 30-second loop, Demogorgon's is a 20-second loop, and Ghostface's is a 10-second loop, roughly.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396907#Comment_3396907
Yet again, I have to tap the sign that is my earlier reply.
I pay attention to items and animations to tell if people are going to use Dead Hard or vault; if I see someone using Dead Hard, I flail my mouse upwards as fast as possible to intentionally miss the hit so they do not gain distance... And honestly, I do not even know how we strayed this far from the topic but I feel as if this further fuels my point a bit.
Also, I do play M1 Killers from time to time, I have a lot of cosmetics for Ghostface and Legion that I use, and sometimes I boot up my PS4 just to play some Demogorgan (I dont have them on PC... I miss having common access to Demo without needing my PS4). I really just do not have a significant issue with it personally, again, I do see where it is problematic, but I just find it really hard to get mad enough to make 20 different threads on the Forums complaining like some people do.
And again, I do see where people are coming from with this perk having problematic situations. My entire point (which you are ignoring) is that it does not matter what you do to Dead Hard, if it is somewhat useable then people will complain because it's core design has something that will always be annoying to somebody; because if anyone sees anything that annoys them, they would much rather it be changed than do anything to deal with it. This goes again beyond just DH but to anything, the DBD community complains and calls for nerfs over miniscule and often unimportant things all the time, rather than trying to improve their self.
If you nerf DH, people will complain that it was over-nerfed and needs to be reworked/changed; if you buff DH, people will complain that it is too strong (which it would be) and that it needs to be nerfed heavily (which it would need to be). "You cannot please everyone," as I originally mentioned.
This entire discussion I created was because I think it is better to give constructive criticism in the Feedback Section of the Forums than to make a General Discussion to write a 10-page rant that is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. And a decent amount of replies Ive seen just further fuel my idea that have a civil and constructive conversation is basically impossible with this community.
And how many times must I repeat myself? If you can see a telltale sign beforehand and adjust without giving up a potential hit, you are not seeing Survivors use Dead Hard correctly. If you were, we would not be seeing comp players consistently swing into Dead Hard on loops.
By your logic, we should have just as many threads complaining about Flashbang, or Blast Mine, or Doctor, or Bubba, or Head On, or Any Means Necessary, or Endfury-Hubris. But we don't. The prevalence of a perk matters. The strength of a perk matters.
You often have the last laugh when you play against a gimmick perk, because it's not a winning strategy; at best, it's a cheese tactic that you can soundly and consistently beat if you're good enough. There is no such solace in playing against Dead Hard. It is not some trivial game delay that you can just shrug off when someone Dead Hards you; it could very easily be the thing that costs you the game no matter how good you are.
Sure, you can't please everyone, but are you saying that means we shouldn't please anyone? This is a perk that's been meta, and complained about, for years and years; the game will be improved with it being nerfed. That's reason enough to go through with the change. One thing that will kill an ongoing game more surely than any nerf is to never, ever change anything; just leave a solved meta in place forever, and force everyone to play against the exact same stuff until the end of time.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396880#Comment_3396880
"If your experience is truly that barely anyone uses DH at pallets, loops or windows to deny lunges," that is not what I said, that is completely different sentence than anything I have said.
To better clarify what I have said, I consider "proper DH usage" to be when you get hit with the Endurance status effect; if you use Dead Hard in a pallet, loop, or window and still go down, I consider it "improper," "improper" usage is not about when and where you use it, but how you get value you from the perk (in my opinion).
People DO use them at pallets, loops, and windows. I just have the ability to tell when and where people are going to use it based off of varies tells that exist in the game, and I gave a few examples of things that can be done to deal with Dead Hard in an earlier reply.
And there are situations where I just cannot counter Dead Hard (this mainly happens at pallets, or curving wide loops with Billy), it does happen, but not enough times for me to really take issue with it. Because unlike most other people, I am really difficult to piss off, and whenever I get mad, I just move onto the next match anyways.
If Survivors are using DH at pallets or windows in such a way that you can see it coming and adjust without giving up a potential hit, then again, you are not seeing correct Dead Hard usage.
And if it doesn't annoy you when you lose a hit to it, and you're not easily annoyed by a loss, fine. But if you don't really care about losing, that might explain why you're playing at an MMR where most people don't use Dead Hard correctly.
It may also be more enlightening for you to play an M1-style Killer like Legion, Wraith, Ghostface, Sadako, Dredge, and others; Hillbilly's chainsaw can be harder to react to than an M1 lunge, because its movespeed is significantly faster than a lunge, and the windup animation can be held indefinitely.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396851#Comment_3396851
Well, to be perfectly honest, the 10% was mostly just pulled from personal experience, in most matches that I play, half of the people are using Sprint Burst, and the other half, Dead Hard, and even as a Billy main (with a power that easily countered by Dead Hard), I rarely come across someone who can get the timing consistently right. And rarely do I feel "cheated" out of a down I otherwise would have gotten.
That 10% can definitely be more or less, but I personally would just rather track much more important data (kill-rates, Generators completed, escapes, etc.); so you are right in a way, it is kind of out of nowhere, well sort of, much more of a guesstimation (or rough estimation).
And Im not saying Dead Hard is a bad perk either, Im just saying that this perk will never be in a state that people are happy with, it will always either be underpowered or overpowered, but the community will never see it as balanced because there will always be something annoying about it that people will cling onto, and the community will never be satisfied with the perk. That being said, the community as a whole is never satisfied with anything anyways, Ive never seen a gaming community complain more than the DBD community.
But Id also like to specifically focus on "attempting to shield the perk from criticism out of some ulterior motive", since it is far from it. I have played in competitive and scrim lobbies for many different games, I find competitive generally interesting whereas most people probably find it boring. I have a lot of knowledge and experience with these types of things because I have been around the block and done a lot of things.
I also hate when people say "oh, you rely on it, it's a crutch you rely on, which is why you are defending it", when Im just stating my opinion on something... and also my favorite Exhaustion perks are Balanced Landing and Head On anyways, and my heart will always belong to those perks, and Im not foaming at the mouth to have either of those buffed, I just really enjoy BL and HO.
Well, if your experience is truly that barely anyone uses DH at pallets, loops or windows to deny lunges, then I'm sorry to break the news to you: You are playing bad Survivors. Which means the game has determined that you are bad at Killer.
And since matchmaking seems wildly inconsistent, you have to be pretty bad not to be seeing Survivors that consistently use Dead Hard correctly. As I said, I'm not that good and it happens basically every time I run into a DH user, especially on sweat squads, so I have no idea where you're getting this notion that barely anyone uses DH in an uncounterable way.
This is a perk that's been meta for years and years, and persisted through multiple Mid-Chapter perk updates as the most-used perk. I think people have earned the right to complain about it. At the bare minimum, people aren't going to be satisfied until it's not a regular presence in their matches anymore.
There's lots of annoying things in the game, but most of them are just gimmicks. Which is why you don't hear Flashbang or Blast Mine or Impossible Skillcheck Doctor get nearly the same level of vitriol that Dead Hard does. Dead Hard is annoying, extremely prevalent, and very powerful even at the highest skill level. The perfect formula for a perk that the playerbase will absolutely despise.
I'll take your word for it if you yourself don't use DH, but make no mistake: Dead Hard is a crutch perk. I've seen many, many Survivors who, with any other Exhaustion perk, against any decent Killer, would be absolutely torn to shreds.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396835#Comment_3396835
Again, human error also applies to Killers as well. We are prone to making mistakes just as much as Survivors. Remember Patch 6.1.0 Eruption? Even with communication, competitive teams were still getting hit with Eruption, because again, people are not perfect, people make mistakes, people sometimes react to thing too late, etc.
Also this is just completely ignoring the competitive ruleset entirely. People are not allowed to bring duplicate perks, and Exhaustion perks are some of the best Survivor perks in the game since they provide guaranteed time-waste. So let me break this down for you since you clearly do not understand:
- Adrenaline: Can be brought with any Exhaustion perk anyways.
- Iron Will: Can be brought with most Exhaustion perks anyways.
- Head On: Generally not used because it cuts Generator efficiency.
- Balanced Landing: Sometimes used, but mostly not used because of map design.
- Overcome, Lithe, Dead Hard, Sprint Burst: Generally used in competitive because these are the best to bring due to having consistent and/or reliable activation conditions that let you get distance.
- Smash Hit: Smash Hit.
Remember in competitive that Sprint Burst is overall the best, it provides the most distance and is rewarding to people who can manage the Exhaustion timer, it can also still be used while in Deep Wounds which helps it work as anti-tunnel.
If competitive did not restrict and limit perks, you would mostly see Sprint Burst over every other Exhaustion perk, Dead Hard might be the second most used but Sprint Burst would be used significantly more.
In both of those tournament matches, the Killer swung into Dead Hard twice. Which is to say, 66% of the time, it worked. And correct me if I'm wrong, but that's a MUCH higher success rate than the 10% figure that you seemingly pulled out of nowhere.
And Hens' Survivor escape streak had a self-imposed, two-perk limit. And the one Exhaustion perk that they chose to bring two of was not Sprint Burst, or Lithe, but Dead Hard. And gee, I can't imagine why.
Sorry, man. You may not want to believe it, but Dead Hard is just a really good perk, and pretending otherwise only shows that you either don't know what you're talking about, or are deliberately attempting to shield the perk from criticism out of some ulterior motive. Both are bad, don't do that.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396760#Comment_3396760
Ah yes, the common "you face bad Survivors" or "you are low MMR" argument.
Let me explain something to you. If I constantly face bad Survivors over and over, surely my MMR would go up from winning constantly, and I would be facing better Survivors eventually, that argument does not inherently work in a game that has some sort of SBMM to dictate matchmaking. And here is the thing, I do face really damn good teams, I just have the patience and awareness to deal with Dead Hard, and rarely do Survivors actually use it effectively against me because of such.
And while we are here, I might as well provide a bit of advice.
Want to avoid hitting Dead Hard near a window/vault-location? Pay attention to the item they are holding, it can especially help since items are removed from their hands upon starting an animation, if you see someone run into a vault but the item not get removed you know they are going to Dead Hard (since there is a distance from a window/vault-location, and Im sure you understand where and when they will get the vault prompt). There are other subtle things as well that you can pick up on as well, which generally revolve around the experience level of the people you are playing against.
If you do lunge-swing into Dead Hard, you can quickly look up to avoid hitting the Survivor, and they will lose out on a significant amount of distance. This depends on the loops you want to use this trick on though, since you have to quickly decided if you want them to basically have another loop at whatever tile you are at or if you want them to use the Dead Hard's sprint burst for distance to reach a different (and potentially stronger or weaker) loop. You can do basic risk-analysis, like anyone else can, it's not that hard to decide when and where to do this.
I also briefly mention some other things about Dead Hard which are important to note in this reply below.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396647#Comment_3396647
No, you really are just playing bad Survivors. Which is to say, you are bad at Killer. If it's really so easy as you claim to just bait out Dead Hard, then explain why comp players keep using it, AND swinging into it?
Like here:
https://youtu.be/pFI9i0qS4OAAnd here:
https://youtu.be/72F-slds7oYAnd here:
https://youtu.be/6YoJQyoh5ac -
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396757#Comment_3396757
Many survivors that use OTR want to use the endurance part of their perk, so if they aren't getting tunneled, then they'll start a chase with the killer, so they "don't waste their perk". So it doesn't matter if I tunnel, or if I don't tunnel, an OTR user, since many of them are going to start a chase with me anyway.
So are you or are you not going to tunnel someone with Sprint Burst? Because it sounds like you're counting on them to make a mistake if they have OtR. Letting them go, and hoping that they'll come back to give you a free hit instead of hiding somewhere, healing up and then just doing gens where you'll never find them?
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396629#Comment_3396629
I mean, isnt this just the current version of Dead Hard. 90% of DHs can be avoided entirely, but as soon as it poses a mild inconvenience it becomes problematic.
This goes beyond just Dead Hard, but goes into the community's mindset. If something is annoying, they think is must be changed.
Bruh, if 90% of Dead Hards were avoidable, no one would use the perk. There are many instances at pallets or windows where Killers have to lunge if they don't wanna risk letting the Survivor get another loop or make it to the next tile, and those are easy opportunities to force a DH hit.
And if your opinion is truly that barely anyone does this, then I hate to break it to you, but you are playing bad Survivors. Like, I'm not that good and it happens basically every time I run into DH users.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396675#Comment_3396675
I very rarely see someone have Off the record and an exhaustion perk at the same time, but if that happens, then I'll either tunnel them off the 2nd hook, or just do something else until Off the record times out (or I'll try to do something else, and the unhooked survivor will purposely try to start a chase, because they "don't want to waste" their perk). This is a rare enough occurrence that I'm not concerned with it.
And I never said hard tunneling was unbeatable. What I did say is that if survivors want to bring the most unfun survivor perk in the game, that is still not properly nerfed because it gives survivors 2 free activations, that it's fair game to match it with unfun camping and tunneling.
If you rarely run into Off the Record, it's because live Dead Hard can do what it does but better, so long as you know how to press E. But OtR works great with Sprint Burst, because it gives you a third health state while still giving you room for another Exhaustion perk.
So yeah, if you decide to tunnel someone after seeing they have Sprint Burst, you're just setting yourself up to get dunked on by anti-tunnel perks. So what's the point of adopting these unfun strategies when it's not even going to help you against decent Survivors?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396032#Comment_3396032
Also, I wanted to mention that if BHVR thinks original PTB DH was a problem because people might tunnel someone for only having 2 health states..... that it's kind of admitting that a perk granting a 3rd health state is unhealthy for the game.
Imagine if I were the type of person to tunnel someone for only having 2 health states. That would mean I should just tunnel the 1st survivor I see, that uses an exhaustion perk that isn't DH, since it's extremely likely they would only have 2 health states the entire game. For example, if I see someone use sprint burst, I should tunnel them out of the game, because they likely aren't using DH, so they're likely to only have 2 health states. If I tried to hook survivors equally, I might eventually run into a DH user with a 3rd health state. Why should I put myself at that risk, when I've already found someone that's 99% likely to not have DH?
And what are you going to do if it turns out that Survivor has Sprint Burst, but also has Off the Record?
Hard tunneling isn't unbeatable. Once you start running into Survivors with the perks, items and experience to counter it, you're just shooting yourself in the foot.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396089#Comment_3396089
Actual question.... what happens if the new DH is still meta? Will it just be "too bad so sad" for killers, and killers would need to wait another year for the 3rd meta shakeup? Does anyone think BHVR will monitor the DH pick rate, and step in if the pick rate is too high?
Current DH lasted a very long time as the #1 exhaustion perk, even though it was supposed to have been nerfed in the 1st meta shakeup. And BHVR didn't step in at all, and just waited for the 2nd meta shakeup.
Yeah, and what if the world were made of pudding? The question is moot in the first place, because this is a nerf comparable to the Ruin nerf- the one that gutted it, cut its effectiveness in half. And very few perks have survived a nerf like that, none of which were Exhaustion perks that take up the single most important perk slot in a Survivor's build.
Dead Hard is now not only a dead perk on the first chase, but can only be used twice per game- meaning you can drop chase after they Dead Hard you, and the perk is dead next chase (When previously, they just needed to recover from Exhaustion to use it next chase). And there are literally other perks that can do what it does without Exhausting you, Off the Record.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396032#Comment_3396032
The prevalence of Dead Hard would have plummeted more with the original PTB version. There is no winning here. I had to remove all my regression perks because they'll not worth using anymore, but I still might need to deal with DH every single game, where its effect is exactly the same as it used to be, but at -1 uses per game.
The new DH needs an additional nerf, so it' can be nerfed at the same intensity as the original PTB version. Otherwise we're just using "oh, people might tunnel" as an excuse to make a huge un-nerf to DH. Maybe prevent survivors from using DH within 5 yards or a vault or pallet. Maybe make it so if the killer doesn't hit the DH, the survivor is stuck in place for 1 second. Just do something so it's nerfed as badly as the original PTB version.
Like what, is the usage going to go down from maybe 30% to 20%, and I'm supposed to be happy with that? Eruption had a massive pick rate drop, and CoB and Overcharge and also likely to have a massive pick rate drop... but DH might just have a moderate pick rate drop, and I'm supposed to be fine with that, because "it's better than nothing"???
Again, you are vastly overestimating the strength of the new Dead Hard. For any other Exhaustion perk, if you could only use it twice a game, and not even on the first chase, that'd kill the perk outright. It was at roughly the same strength as Sprint Burst from the perspective of most comp players, so what makes you think Dead Hard will be so different, especially when Off the Record exists?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395957#Comment_3395957
Does everyone understand that the effect of DH is exactly the same, between the current DH and the new DH, and that the only thing that changed is the activation trigger? As far as I'm concerned, after a survivor has been placed on a hook, the new DH is exactly the same as the current DH, where a survivor will try to use it 1 time before the 2nd hook, and 1 time before the 3rd hook.
And it doesn't matter how important the first chase is, because both PTB DH versions didn't work on the 1st chase.
And it's not every survivor that needs to be camped. It's only the survivors where I didn't see their exhaustion perk before they got hooked. Because they might have DH, and I hate DH so much that I think it's 100% justified to hit them immediately after being unhooked.
And the original PTB version actually fixed the whole "tunneling after unhook" problem, because the person being unhooked isn't the person to get DH, so there's no urgent need to hit them immediately after being unhooked.
Yeah, the perk still has annoying elements to it, but at the end of the day, there's a LOT of things in the game that you could call annoying If we go by the logic of "Power level irrelevant, counterplay irrelevant, only annoyance is important", suddenly 90% of the perks in the game warrant a nerf. Power Struggle, Saboteur, Flashbang, Spirit Fury-Enduring, Pain Res, No Way Out, Adrenaline, Decisive Strike, Lightborn, Corrupt Intervention.
The new DH isn't just inactive on the first chase. It also doesn't work on the second, or the third, or the fourth if you aren't tunneling. Can't say the same for PTB Dead Hard.
The prevalence of Dead Hard is likely to plummet after this change. So congratulations, you're probably not gonna have to tunnel people off the hook anymore. You have what you wanted. Why can't you just take your W and move on? And I'd hate to see your face when you find out Off the Record exists.
No, the PTB version had an even bigger tunneling problem, because the unhooker would have three health states because they just earned DH, but the unhooked would only have two at the most.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395552#Comment_3395552
You said yourself that the original PTB version was still usable, and that is the version I want to go live.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395564#Comment_3395564
DH in any chase could be devastating to a killer's momentum. New DH just means that everyone should continue to hit a survivor immediately after being unhooked, to prevent the DH, so killers can see zero DHs.
The idea of a chase meta failed. Killers should still camp hooked survivors, because there is a giant urgent encouragement to be there when the survivor is unhooked, because it's the only time most killers can place a survivor in deep wounds so they can't DH. And before anyone asks, yes I hate DH so much that I will hang out next to a hook, and hit a survivor immediately after being unhooked. I don't care if survivors think it's unfun. If BHVR wants to keep DH in a meta, and if survivors want to continue bringing this awful perk, then this game can be Camping Simulator 2023. This is how I currently play, and it's how the game wants me to continue to play.
Dude, you are just obsessed with Dead Hard. I typed out an entire essay titled "A definitive Dead Hard rant" countering every common argument in favor of Dead Hard, one by one, in response to people saying it shouldn't be nerfed, and even I don't hate the perk this much.
It's unlikely that the perk will even see more than niche usage in its new iteration. Even if all four Survivors are running it, they can only activate it 8 times and that's it. Sprint Burst, on the other hand, can be activated 12 times minimum, and potentially an infinite number of times, with the only limitation being the Exhaustion timer.
Meanwhile, a single player could use the PTB DH up to six times, and unless you saw the unhook happen, you'd have no way to even know who has it.
Also, the first chase is by far the most important in the match. The Killer has no pressure, and can only chase one Survivor at a time while the others are all free to do gens. If you look at comp teams, a key element of their strategy is delaying the first down for as long as possible. And even after the first down, a good player would much rather have a Dead Hard on their first chase when everyone's still alive, instead of their last chase when one or more of their teammates may already be dead.
So yeah, not having an Exhaustion perk in the first chase (Or in any of the Survivors' first chases, for that matter) is actually a pretty huge deal.
If you feel you HAVE to camp after these changes, that's on you. If I can still win games without facecamping on the first down, on LIVE, I think you can get by without facecamping just to avoid a neutered Dead Hard. And it's not even a winning play; it's just a cheese strat that doesn't win against good Survivors, so you're going to be just as frustrated as before once you meet Survivors who know how to beat campers. Take some responsibility for your own actions.
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@LollyGurl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395483#Comment_3395483
Some of my fellow killer mains won’t be happy until the perk is completely unusable or better yet ceases to exist, it doesn’t matter whether it’s the most controversial perk nor that you personally super hate it, because a good subsection of this community don’t care about balance and/or don’t know what they’re talking about (which sometimes includes me).
The only reason people weren’t getting activations with the previous PTB iteration was because they were unlucky or lazy, which applies to a bunch of perks on both sides that have a cap on potential uses. I, the person who chose We’re Gonna Live Forever for their profile icon, would probably have little trouble getting Dead Hard activations and could potentially have it for multiple chases before you finally hook me, something the latest iteration makes impossible to do.
As for its pick rate, it already dropped by 50% after the Dead Hard for distance removal, dropping from around 3/4 survivors to around 1/3 and even the current iteration will drop uses now it has a 0-2 cap on attempts for the entire trial.
Bear in mind that balance is a means to an end, not an end unto itself. Fun is the goal of game balance. And it is quite possible for a mechanic to be extremely balanced and still not fun to play against. Example, pre-rework Legion. Were they balanced? Yeah, Survivors could escape them no problem. Were they fun? Hell, no.
That being said, I think people are seriously overestimating the new DH, yeah. So many of the things that actually made it so impactful are gone. There's no DH in the first chase, which could previously be devastating to a Killer's momentum. In fact, none of the Survivors will be able to DH on their first chase. And swinging into a DH previously put you in a no-win situation. If you don't drop chase, there's a good chance you're in for a long chase that you really can't afford to take. But if you drop chase, they'll be able to DH again later (But now DH only works once per hook state).
I don't really see it staying relevant for serious players. Comp players often opted for Sprint Burst as-is, and the comp meta is one where people mostly just say "Screw it" and don't bother trying to mindgame DH. The opportunity cost is too high when other Exhaustion perks are way more consistent, and way more readily available.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394730#Comment_3394730
Honestly it IS an offense against statistics, all those tactics are what makes kill rates so high and why all the games are much stressful.
Yes, it is solely the Killer's fault for getting upset or stressed. I mean, it's not like Survivors will intentionally go out of their way to annoy the Killer or rub it in their face when they misplay or lose.
Nope, definitely not.
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@ColonGlock said:
I miss the whole mini game of hooking each survivor at least once for BBQ stacks. Bloodpoints were a good motivator.
Why not play with the new Pain Res, then? The basic concept is the same.
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Honestly? Right now. I main Knight and Skull Merchant and never looked back. Knight because his power fits my macro-oriented playstyle perfectly, and Skull Merchant for similar reasons (Though I mainly play her to get better at chasing because she's just a standard M1 Killer). But my tastes are also unusual, and many of the complaints about both Killers are quite valid.
And the next patch is looking like it might be the most fun one yet; no more Dead Hard to screw up my carefully-laid plans with a third health state at the worst possible time, a perk that rewards me for spreading hooks, and nerfs to Medkits. Auto-Bloodweb is neat too.
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She's a very basic Killer when it comes down to it, and her power revolves entirely around macro play, similar to Wraith, Pig, or Sadako. One could argue there's a certain elegance to just playing a basic M1 Killer, but that doesn't have the broadest appeal.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
Kinda old video but still a very good one explaining how to get pressure on survivors
This is honestly one of the best ways you can improve at the game. I actually get spun, whiff my power and misjudge the distance on lunges fairly regularly; I often just brute-force pallet loops and don't play high-tier Killers, but I still get a good number of 4Ks even against good Survivors because I'm always thinking in terms of macro, never get fixated on winning this one chase. Almost every decision I make is calculated.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394267#Comment_3394267
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394063#Comment_3394063
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393970#Comment_3393970
Really, I don't know how is so hard to understand that having one item available and not having it is not the same...
Options if a medkit is in play:
- The injure survivor self heals with the medkit (Self Heal).
- Other survivor heals them without medkit (Altruistic Base Heal).
- Other survivor heals them with the medkit (Altruistic Heal).
In this scenario, the most efficient option would be that the injured survivor heals himself over the other two like we all know. Whatever it was him who brought the medkit, or the other person and just drop it to the ground so the injured survivor can use it. As this option exist, doing altruistic healing would means that you are wasting the time of a survivor that could be doing something else instead of just letting the injured survivor heal and not waste that time. So, in this specific case, yes, doing self healing is more efficient than altruistic.
And it is totally logical for it to be this way, as again, it requires something extra that maybe you can't have available for you at that time: A medkit. The main advantage of the medkit was always have the ability to self heal yourself without the help of anybody to begin with. So, again, is logical that having a medkit available for the injured survivor to self heal to be an advantage over basekit altruistic heal. And this is not a problem at all, because again, you can drop your medkit for everybody to be able to use it.
Options if a medkit is not in play:
- Other survivor heals them without a medkit (Altruistic Base Heal)
And that's it! You don't have any more options here, because there is no medkit. And because you don't have any more options (unless you count "No healing" as an option) you are not wasting any time doing the altruistic healing, because if you want to heal, you don't have any other way to do it. Meaning, those 16/24 seconds invested in it would have to be spent yes, or yes, and therefore they won't be "a waste" of anyone's time, much less gen progression.
So, now that we know the differences of "Having a Medkit" and "Not having a Medkit", again: Self healing is more efficient than altruistic healing only when you have a medkit at hand. If you don't, you won't be wasting any time (less so double the time of the healing) because you can't do anything else to get the heal.
Those two situations, "Having a Medkit" and "Not having a Medkit", are two completely different situations and comparing them directly to make any type of argument is a false equivalency fallacy. And if you don't see it by now, it's on you.
The funny thing is even if you all were right about this, this not even explains why altruistic healing wasn't a problem before. Even more so now than altruistic healing can be as low as 4 seconds. More so when most of the time healing would happen when it is not an inconvenient and the "travel time" don't even matter (for example, after completing a gen). So, you keep saying that it is "more convenient to the killer" when it is not.
And if "medkits needed change" and "altruistic healing should be lower because falsely comparing it with healing with a medkit is less efficient", they could just keep the 24 seconds, buff CoH like they are doing, and change the medkits from 50% to 100% to have the same effect as now with the best medkit you would get a healthy survivor and 21 charges in a gen in the same time a single survivor would heal themselves (24 seconds vs 12 seconds heal, 12 seconds both doing a gen) while still giving breathing time to the killer.
But yeah, whatever the masses says. We will have to see what happens when the patch comes out.
Look, if you were struggling against basekit altruistic healing, I don't know what to tell you. Slap on Sloppy Butcher, Coulrophobia and Nurse's Calling if it bothers you that much.
The only times I've felt Survivors were healing too quickly for me to keep up is when all of them were using Medkit and Circle of Healing self-heals to their full potential, or when third health states like Dead Hard were in play (And all of those things are nerfed now, sooo...). Or when they were just better than me at looping, or were playing on Cowshed, neither of which are the fault of healing itself.
-
BHVR: "Borrowed Time is now basekit"
OP: "Imma tunnel"
BHVR: "Dead Hard now activates after being unhooked"
OP: "Imma tunnel"
BHVR: "Pain Res now rewards you for spreading hooks around"
OP: "Imma tunnel"
BHVR: "Medkits are weaker now"
OP: "Imma tunnel"
Just a thought, OP: Have you ever considered not tunneling? What with the devs doing everything in their power to discourage it, and all?