Monlyth
Monlyth
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363971#Comment_3363971
Statistics would matter. However, you don't have any. As there have been multiple people who play Killer who have stated they're not concerned with DH you don't have consensus or even an idea if the Killers who dislike it are the majority or just the loudest.
You have emotional arguments, a disregard of anybody else saying they don't have personal issues with it and a total conviction you're right and everyone else is wrong. That's not evidence; that's an opinion and opinions come with the possibility that the person stating the opinion is wrong.
Dead Hard continues to be the most-used Survivor perk by a big margin, and its usage only climbs higher as you go to higher MMRs.
Cue the dismissal.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363578#Comment_3363578
Nope, they've not even considered that they may not be right despite them literally proving themselves wrong by posting that video 😂
So what would you have said if I posted a video of a Killer of similar skill losing to DH?
No, don't tell me. I already know from experience. "That Killer got outplayed, so Dead Hard is still fine."
You people are unbelievable.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363221#Comment_3363221
So because my opinion doesn't match yours, you're saying me giving my feedback to the developers is self-centered and ridiculous?
That's a pretty unreasonable thing to say.
When someone has stopped defending their opinions and is instead defending their right to have one, there's a problem.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/366861/i-dont-hate-dead-hard
This constant DH talk is really exhausting. Yeah for some reason people really do think DH is uncounterable and undervalue SB, i don't know why.
And i guess they also say, its not fun to sniff a survivors ass. But that is a lie, they do it all the time even without DH
Playing against DH is really exhausting. For some reason people really do think DH is fair, fun and balanced despite all evidence to the contrary.
You are aware that DH is so ingrained in the meta that you have to treat everyone like they have it?
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@Zeidoktor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362942#Comment_3362942
Yeah. OP chose such a bad example that the thread may as well be "To everyone saying DH is so easy to counter... you're right. It's so easy to counter you may as well not bother and here's gameplay to prove it"
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363116#Comment_3363116
Is it possible you're just not correct?
So, let me get this straight: Killers can still win against DH, so DH is balanced?
That's a pretty freaking low bar to clear, my dude. I could make a similar argument in favor of everything in this game that's ever been nerfed; nothing has ever achieved a 100% winrate as far as I know, even at the highest skill level. Survivors could still win against Moris, so Moris were balanced. Killers could still win against Keys, so Keys were balanced.
So if this is the best argument people can come up with to defend DH, I feel more confident than ever that I'm correct. Can't wait for BHVR to put an end to this farce.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363255#Comment_3363255
obviously countering dead hard isn't as simple as a single 4-word catchphrase.
its almost like you wrote an entire thread worth of ways in which dead hard is not overpoweringly oppressive, and that "just wait it out" is only one that applies to only some of the many situations you could go to. if you want a game where you can always counter a certain strategy in the same exact way, play rock-paper-scissors.
listing valid counterarguments and then saying "/s" at the end as if they weren't valid isn't an argument, it's whining that you're not capable of doing the very valid counterplay and making it other people's fault
See, this is what I'm talking about. When I take the things you say at face value, I can't form a coherent belief system out of them. Do you believe that the counterplay to DH is simple and anyone who swings into it is just a noob, or do you believe DH is an intricate mindgame that makes the game better and more healthy at the highest skill level (Despite the legions of Killer players who absolutely hate it)? The two arguments are pretty incompatible with one another, yet people seem to switch between them like it's nothing depending on which is more rhetorically convenient at the moment.
And that ties into a much bigger problem: Your claim is unfalsifiable. No matter who you are or how good you are or whether you won or lost against DH, there's always some new rationalization for why DH must still be fine. Statistics don't matter. The opinions of bad Killer players, good Killer players, and top-tier Killer players don't matter. The consensus of the Killer community at large doesn't matter. Whether you win or lose against it doesn't matter. There's literally no pleasing you no matter what I say or what evidence I put forward or whom I cite, and I'm supposed to take you seriously?
Put yourself in my shoes for a moment and say for the sake of argument that Dead Hard really is a problem. How would you go about proving that? Because you've dismissed every possible source of facts and evidence I could use to back up my opinions with.
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@ratcoffee said:
everyone makes mistakes, for instance, when that tournament Oni swung into DH, or when you posted a video of someone swinging into DH a bunch of times and still winning in that other thread as evidence that DH is somehow overpowered. when someone makes a mistake it doesn't mean that it's impossible for them to not make mistakes, just that they did in that one instance
If countering DH was really as simple as people made it out to be, tournament-level Killers getting hit by it would be a rare celestial event that you'd be shocked to see, not a routine occurrence that happens twice a match on average, even when there's just one Dead Hard on the entire team.
"Just wait it out" is not remotely difficult. Waiting requires no precise inputs, no aiming, no fake-outs.
So why do tournament-level Killers swing into Dead Hard? Because countering DH is nowhere near as simple as that.
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The Game is what happens when you just throw pallets at a map to fix a flawed design. There's very little room for skill expression when most of the pallets are god pallets and there's seemingly ALWAYS another pallet you have to chew through, yet the map is so small and claustrophobic that the Killer still wins most matches anyway.
All in all, not a great experience for either side. My advice would be, take out a bunch of pallets, and put in more windows/tiles to compensate.
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The idea that Dead Hard doesn't personally bother you, so it must be fine is a little ridiculous, and self-centered too. It suggests that "Mine is the only fun that matters".
I don't personally mind dying as a Survivor all that much. It goes with the territory when you're a solo player, what matters is that you did all you could. But I don't act like Survivors who find themselves dying over and over even when they did really well that match don't have a legitimate grievance. Which is one reason I welcomed the solo queue buffs.
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@Zeidoktor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362693#Comment_3362693
I think the issue is they're taking the OP as using the videos as evidence of the problematic nature of Dead Hard, but the fact the Killer won the game despite taking multiple Dead Hards is overshadowing whatever issues the OP is trying to bring attention to.
"Okay, Dead Hard isn't easy to bait out. If you can win regardless why worry about doing so?"
OP should have used an example where eating those Dead Hards cost the killer the game.
If I post a video of someone losing to DH, people will just say that Killer got outplayed. I know because I've done that, and that's how people responded.
And tournament rules mean Survivors can only bring one DH, so the impact that DH has on the game is drastically reduced anyway.
I can't win with this crowd, honestly; regardless of skill level, regardless of whether you win or lose against DH, they'll always find some little exception for why DH must still be fine.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363064#Comment_3363064
Maybe Eruption was too strong and DH isn't? Just spitballing. They don't have to be the same thing.
All evidence points to Eruption being the weaker of the two, honestly; it didn't see nearly the same amount of play that DH does, even at the highest peak of its popularity.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363067#Comment_3363067
I am honestly for a Forum Rule which would allow Threads about the same topic to be closed. Every Snowflake thinks that their DH-Thread is unique and worth posting, while in reality, it is not the case.
But for some reason people think that it gives any value if they post the same ######### which others have already posted again and again.
Hey, I went out of my way to make a different argument from any of the others.
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@HugTechLover said:
Can we ban DH threads for this week? What is this, the 9th or 10th one in a matter of days?
Only if we get the option to ban DH for this week. You can choose not to read these forums if DH threads bother you so much. But if I wanna queue into DbD without running into this godforsaken perk for the 20th time in a matter of days, I'm SOL.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362529#Comment_3362529
There are exactly 2 killers that invalidate DH (Deathslinger and Legion). 3, if you want to count Pinhead with the deep wound addon. Not even insta downs counter DH. It's the other way around. People stay injured so they don't go down in 1 hit. Most killer powers give audio and visual clues for when the killer attacks. It's not that difficult to react to these (mostly).
Do you really think nobody else has tried to swing immediately? Just yesterday I had a match as Nemesis against a Feng that timed her DH perfectly every time. I tried animation fakes, I tried waiting, I tried swinging immediately but she pulled it off every time (needless to say I lost that match pretty hard). For all I knew she could have had auto DH. Then I looked at her steam profile and well... She was legit. Granted players like these are not the norm but as long as there are players like these you pretty much have no counter play.
To an extend everything in this game comes down to 'skill issue'. People tried to defend Nurse with the same argument. You can also say that Eruption was a skill issue. "Just don't ever let the killer get a down and you won't have to deal with it." It doesn't change the fact that all of these need changes / nerfs.
Saying Deathslinger and Legion completely invalidate DH is being a bit generous tbh. There's lots of scenarios where, if DH weren't a factor, a normal M1 would be the optimal play.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362294#Comment_3362294
Dh is more fun even it does not always give value but usually killers are not smart and lunge midnlessly if everyone would bait it out I would not use it. But when it does get value it's better than any other exhaustion perks.
If this was a skill issue, DH's usage would go down at higher MMRs, not up. Top-tier Killers wouldn't keep running into it, or swinging into it.
I mean, look at this #########. You couldn't ask for someone to put more effort into baiting it out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4Q7MDmCA6E -
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362424#Comment_3362424
People really do not understand how to make a read?
What part of "No lunges" do you not understand? Lunges are a pretty integral part of a Killer's chase. Easily the difference between a hit and a pallet stun in many chases. How many times must I repeat myself?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362408#Comment_3362408
I had sort of hoped Eruption wouldn't go live after it was on the PTB, but hey, took people a while I guess.
That's all assuming you actually LAND the DH. It can be baited out, it can get hard countered by Killer powers and it's harder to use than any other Exhaustion perk. It can also get cucked hard by latency. If the Killer has a connection over 100ms, good luck landing that #########.
If you get hit by DH out in the open, that's completely on you. There's absolutely no excuse for that, the advantage is completely on your side as Killer in that scenario.
No, I'm not assuming that. Even before DH actually comes out, it drastically changes how the Killer has to approach a chase. And nowhere is this more evident than with what happens if you don't bring any Exhaustion perks at all, or purposefully miss your DH once and then never use it again; many Killers will still act like you have Dead Hard, and will make many suboptimal plays, likely passing up obvious opportunities to down you, in order to avoid a nonexistent E.
DH weakens the Killer's chasing ability in a way unlike any other Exhaustion perk, even when you don't land it. No lunges, no power, no instant swings, unless you want the chase to go on for another tile or two. And in a game of inches like Dead By Daylight, that can be crippling.
The advantage is on the Killer's side when you're in the open, sure, but the Survivor still has a chance. The Killer can't just keep staring at the Survivor's back forever, so if the Surv manages to randomly guess at just the right moment, they can still get away.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362397#Comment_3362397
The fact that it can be used to hold matches hostage, much like Boil Over was able to do.
Also, Incapacitated is far too strong on a perk with no cooldown that can be applied to multiple gens. I would've been fine with it being changed to gen blocking.
Well, holding matches hostage is a pretty low bar, honestly.
I could make a similar argument against Dead Hard. An activatable third health state is far too strong for an Exhaustion perk. It punishes lunging, counters several Killers' powers, makes the Killer second-guess every swing, buys you extra time and gives you a chance to escape even if you get caught in the open; and if successfully activated, gives more value than any other Exhaustion perk by a huge margin. And that's after the nerf. Strong, overused, and unfun to play against.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362391#Comment_3362391
Currently? I don't think any Survivor perks need nerfs. I think a lot need buffed.
I also think that, barring Eruption, no Killer perks need to be nerfed. Most of the Killer perks need to be buffed as well.
I think a lot of the imbalance right now comes from map design, map offerings, items and add-ons.
Nurse HAS actually been queen for 6 years. Blight's been #2 for 3 years now. Other than some of his add-ons, I think Blight is in a fine state. Strong and popular doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be nuked.
So what is it that justifies the nerf to Eruption, and essentially nothing else?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362384#Comment_3362384
I believe I did, I addressed your supporting arguments, which were false.
DH hasn't been complained about for 6 years. It's really been complained about for 3-ish. Dedicated Servers were pretty garbage when they first came out and that made DH suck for a while. Then they added hit validation and I think that's when I started noticing a LOT more complaints, rightly so.
Dead Hard got it's nerf. It is FAR weaker than it was and its no longer a skill-less "i win" button.
I could maybe see giving it a 60 second timer instead of 40, but I don't think it currently needs a nerf.
You have the strangest sense of time, my dude. 3 years of meta dominance isn't enough for you? Any serious multiplayer game dev would look utterly incompetent for letting the meta stagnate and ignoring complaints for that long. Like, it's really not that hard to have the meta cycle through different things as time goes on.
What made the perk strong, what made the perk overused, and what made the perk unfun are all still there. Hence the complaints continue.
If you think Dead Hard doesn't need a nerf, name one Survivor perk that does.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362377#Comment_3362377
Actually, Balanced was the preferred Exhaustion perk for quite some time.
I'd say I only REALLY started noticing DH more after Dedicated Servers were implemented.
For someone who's so critical of others for avoiding the point, it's strange that you, once again, didn't really answer someone's question. If DH doesn't warrant a nerf, what does?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362364#Comment_3362364
I point out things that I think are intriguing, that usually means I think they're wrong.
Unfortunately, BHVR's track record does indeed indicate that they nerf things based off of popularity. There's really not much to argue with there, whether or not it deserves to be nerfed again is likely irrelevant. In my original statement, I was implying that people were upset they were doing that and therefore, we should not be using popularity as an argument.
I do not recall seeing a single Killer complaint about Windows of Opportunity in all the time I've been on this forum, so that rules out the "unfun" component of "unfun and overused".
Dead Hard has had, what? 6 years of dominance over the meta, and 6 years of widespread complaints? It's the Ruin of Survivor perks, only it's survived multiple waves of perk changes that Ruin didn't. If DH doesn't warrant a nerf, what does?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362359#Comment_3362359
You sure avoid the point for someone who thinks they're right.
Also, you need to work on that victim complex.
I like how you picked out the more emotionally-charged argument that looked weaker, and not the one above it, quoting you, pointing out that Dead Hard has more than fulfilled the prerequisites for something to get nerfed.
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Dead Hard encourages tunneling. The only surefire way to avoid getting Dead Harded is to hit someone the instant they get off the hook (So they have Deep Wounds), chase them down, and then hook them again.
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@LuthirFontaine said:
Going to sound trolly and snarky but I do hope they nerf dh I want to see the next why I didn't 4k perk
Hey, I'm not some crazy "The game is balanced when I 4k every game" Killer main. I just wanna win a chase when I've won a chase, and not get outplayed by the E key.
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@Phantom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362289#Comment_3362289
Becauae when it works, and you've timed it well, it's worth it :)
That's like asking why use any perk? 😅 Why do you think?
I mean, Lithe, Sprint Burst, Balanced Landing and Overcome are all way more consistent than DH will ever be. If it really bothers you that the perk is so inconsistent, you're not lacking for alternatives here.
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@Phantom_ said:
Are we all going to pretend the fact that DH nowadays only works 50% of the time doesn't exist?? The many times you still get downed despite your screen clearly showing that you're exhausted, thus meaning you've used DH, but it did absolutely nothing. The other 50% of the time that you time it well and use it and take a hit with endurance, it's truly and utterly fine.
If you're struggling SO HARD against one perk, maybe you should lose some matches and get back to playing against people that are more on your skill-level :)
If it's really that inconsistent, why defend it? I don't think the latency issues with it are going to get fixed anytime soon.
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Halo: Reach actually introduced a mechanic like this: Armor Lock. You temporarily become invincible, but unable to attack or move. You can end the invincibility at any time, or after a set duration. And after you've ended it, you emit an EMP that damages the shields of enemies close to you.
Even though you could often just wait it out, especially if the Armor Lock player used it poorly, it was one of the most hated mechanics ever introduced to the series, and never returned after its first game.
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Oni is proof that you can make and balance a Killer that basically annihilates every possible defense Survivors may have (Seriously, look at his tournament performances, he can get you on practically any loop with Demon Dash-Demon Strike if he's good), IF you make their power limited-use.
So, you want to fix Nurse? Or at least make her tolerable? Spasmodic Breath basekit. Wouldn't even take that much work from the devs.
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@roundpitt said:
Hooking each individual survivor before moving on to securing a kill doesn’t make sense given the current state of the game.
The moment one survivor is gone, the amount of gen pressure is significantly decreased. So it really does feel like tunneling is the optimal play.
This isn’t really fun as the killer, nor is it fun on the receiving end.
The core problem is gen pressure, it’s why the current meta is gen kicking perks.
Suggestion:
After a survivor is hooked, they receive a stacking debuff of -20% gen repair speed. On their second hook, this debuff stacks to -40%.
with this, it wouldn’t make sense to tunnel out survivors, because while you are chasing an already hooked survivor, you have three other survivors with 100% gen repair speed doing gens.
This would not be a perk, it would simply be a base game mechanic.
I think having the debuff stack on the second hook partly defeats the purpose of it being an anti-tunnel mechanic. It still gives you a bonus for hooking the same survivor consecutively. I think it'd work better if it was a repair speed penalty that only activated after being hooked for the first time.
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Her visual design leaves a lot to be desired, her power is uninteresting with little room for skill expression, she's slow moving across the map, she's a weak M1 Killer in chase, and the best use of her power is to hold a 3-gen.
It's like the devs took everything that made Wesker praiseworthy and consciously chose to do the exact opposite.
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I think the perk is pretty unsalvageable, honestly; Dead by Daylight is such an all-or-nothing game that an Exhaustion perk you can activate by pressing E will always be too good and/or frustrating. And there are very few changes you can make to it that would actually remove the frustrating aspect of it for Killers. It needs to do something completely different from what it did.
Here's how I'd rework it:
You can take a beating.
After being unhooked, recovering from the Dying state, or being healed, Dead Hard activates for 4 seconds:
If you start to run while Dead Hard is active, break into a sprint at 150% of your normal movement speed for 5 seconds and Dead Hard deactivates.
Dead Hard causes the Exhausted status effect for 40 seconds.
Dead Hard cannot be used while exhausted.
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@buffsadako said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3361254#Comment_3361254
I use SB way more than I do DH and I feel the opposite. I feel like 99'ing a SB takes significantly less skill than a long-held DH that won a mind game against the killer. I never see someone pop a SB and say wow that was a skilled play.
I literally never use DH, only SB. And I feel the opposite. I look at most DH plays and go "Wow, that guy messed up, he just got carried so hard by E."
Dead Hard gives you an easy out when you lose a mindgame or make a silly mistake, and it shows in the average user.
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@buffsadako said:
The only change I would like to see to Dead Hard is not being able to use it on ranged powers. Really really hard to counter Dead Hard when using a ranged killer. Other than that, I think it's fine now. If a survivor waits a Dead Hard out and times it right they deserve the payoff.
I'm pretty thoroughly unimpressed by DH plays. 99'ing a Sprint Burst deserves a payoff. Pressing E does not.
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I don't care what Scott thinks, staring at a Survivor's back waiting for them to press E is terrible gameplay.
In a game about slashers chasing down survivors, a good play from the Killer is to NOT slash the survivors, and a good play from the Survivors is to purposely LET THE KILLER HIT THEM. Let that sink in.
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There's no saving the perk. In a game as fast-paced and all-or-nothing as Dead By Daylight, a third health state on-demand will always be too strong, and it will never NOT be frustrating to be "cheated" out of a hit. Killers want to win a chase when they've won a chase. The last thing they want to see at the end of a chase is "Oops, sorry, the survivor pressed E so they didn't go down".
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@Technature said:
Ya know what, it's not my fault that you spend so much time staring at a survivor that probably doesn't have it in the first place that you're running a horse race around the map.
If you're literally spending a minute looking at people, it's time you stop blaming Dead Hard and start blaming your own decisions to throw away the game.
1) They did have it, and 2) I didn't say I personally was experiencing it, I said a Killer player with thousands of hours had. A player much better than you or I, mind you. See for yourself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4Q7MDmCA6ESo, which is it? Is he a bad player for just waiting it out forever, or is he a bad player for swinging into it? Because waiting it out quite literally can go on forever if the Survivor so chooses; the onus is on the Killer to attack.
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@Technature said:
I'm sorry are we in some alternative universe where the gameplay for both sides of DBD are exactly the same?
You can't wait out eruption mate. Once it's applied it's on there until it gets used. If you wait it out you accomplish literally nothing until someone goes down which, let's just use the above example for this one, means you're waiting more than a minute standing there with your thumb up your ass.
Even if you have no perks or items whatsoever chances are the generator would be done within that time.
Countering Dead Hard requires being unpredictable. Countering Eruption requires being a ######### psychic.
Do you feel that anger, that frustration? That's what Killers feel every time someone tells them Dead Hard is fine.
If you wait out Dead Hard you accomplish literally nothing until Dead Hard gets used. You think Killers get anything for staring at a Survivor's back for a full minute? Even with no perks or powers whatsoever, chances are the chase would be over within that time.
Countering Dead Hard requires you to not perform actions that would otherwise be a winning play. And would you look at that, so does Eruption. They have quite a bit in common, really. Frustrating for many of the same reasons. Every instance of you pressing M1 turns from a no-brainer to a calculated risk that could easily backfire.
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@Technature said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360118#Comment_3360118
If someone actually mind games you into sniffing their ass for a literal minute and still manages to land the Dead Hard it's not someone having a crutch perk, it's someone having a good reaction.
I've noticed nobody likes to talk about the Dead Hards that don't work because they didn't push it early enough.
Almost like the whole "Just wait it out" argument crumbles when you consider Survivors are perfectly capable of waiting too.
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@Technature said:
I will say hitting on hook has a purpose, specifically the fact that the guy screaming is significantly louder than grunts of pain and other noise survivors may make. I almost never do it myself but if someone wants to be thorough then whatever.
More than once is just being an ass though.
But as pointed out while there are definitely awful killer players, awful survivor players are significantly higher than the proportion should be. I can sometimes go months without finding a killer doing something awful, but the number of days on any given month where I haven't seen a survivor waste my time tea bagging at the gate can be counted on one hand (this is keeping in mind that I play one game per side a day because I can't tolerate this anymore). The number of days they try to justify or straight up lie about it need no more than both hands (I've literally been told by someone crouching at the gate for a solid half a minute that they were walking out).
It's gotten to the point that I'm just DCing if I don't have a kill because I'm not getting a lot for it anyways and I literally have every perk unlocked for every character at the moment, and all that time I can't play publicly is time I can spend practicing Nurse.
Funny you should say that, I just ran into a full-build facecamp-on-first-down Bubba who hit me on hook for the audacity of having Reassurance and unhooking his first victim.
I think the numbers may be skewed a little just because there are four Survivors, and only one Killer per match. Four opportunities for a toxic player to show up, versus one.
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@jinx3d said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360079#Comment_3360079
and it removes the threat of a survivor making a mistake. overestimated howmany times you can loop shack? just dh!
Exactly. It's still little more than a crutch perk, honestly; I've seen a lot of mediocre Survivors who over-rely on it in chase.
And it's not hard to see why that happens: "The survivor pressed E so they get a free speed boost instead of going down now"
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@Technature said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359831#Comment_3359831
"Eruption can be countered by waiting it out."
My brother in the fog, Eruption is on the generator until somebody goes down.
What are you talking about waiting it out?
What if that survivor is good at chases and they don't go down for minutes? What if the killer has no idea what the words "Abandon Chase" mean? Are you really going to "wait it out" when you could complete the generator 4 times in the time it takes for them to go down?
No. No, the exact same thing CAN'T be said about DH. You can play around DH, change your strategies on the fly, purposefully miss attacks. You can't psychically guess when a survivor is about to go down.
And the Survivor has Dead Hard until they press E. I've seen Killers with thousands of hours spend over a minute waiting out Dead Hard. And I guarantee you, had they actually swung into it in the end, you'd be the first to say, "It was so obvious, shouldn't have fallen for it".
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@jinx3d said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359930#Comment_3359930
you cant trigger overcome by missing a hit lmao, that point is irrelavent
lithe and sprint burst arent as strong because they cant be controlled. as soon as you sprint/vault, they trigger
I hear a lot of people suggesting that Sprint Burst has no counterplay as Killer. Because there's nothing you can do as Killer to prevent that 3 second speed boost. Well, if that's the case, DH doesn't have any counterplay either.
Whatever the Killer does, the Survivor can always get some value out of it. Either by tanking a hit with it, or by forcing you to play around it.
But, like with DH, there are things we can do to minimize the value the Survivor gets out of Sprint Burst. You can wait before you swing at a walking Survivor, you can spook the Survivor and then drop the chase to make them waste it, you can stand between them and their nearest escape route, or you can run Fearmonger.
The difference is, DH takes away basic gameplay options from the Killer. It comes out at the end of the chase, after you've already committed a LOT of time and energy to chasing them. It punishes the Killer for getting a hit. It punishes you for picking specific Killers. It's a third health state. And it makes you feel like you were cheated out of a down in a way that no Sprint Burst ever could.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/366561/this-game-has-a-toxicity-problem
I'm talking about things that serve no other purpose than to be hurtful to the other side. Hitting on hook, teabagging at exit gates, facecamping on the first down, toxic endgame chats, and so on.I will agree with most of what you said however in the highlighted section you went 3.5 for 4, facecamping first down while sometimes doesnt have a purpose other than toxicity, it can sometimes be a tactical descision with gameplay reasons, so doesnt quite fit the mold of the other 3 examples.
There is some context to it, but that's usually not why a player has chosen to do it in my experience.
Though a more unambiguous example would be, purposely leaving survivors to bleed out, even after everyone is down.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359843#Comment_3359843
again. missing hit prolongs the chase less then other exhaustion perks. Will you move the goal post to sprint/lithe/balanced/overcome/... once DH is nerfed?
I already said no. What part of "I'd gladly play a hundred games against Sprint Burst if it meant I'd never have to worry about Dead Hard again" do you not understand?
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359826#Comment_3359826
1, you said there's nothing that can be done. I just showed you there's something. Does it favor survivors? Sure it does. Does being in open favor killers? That's true as well.
The fact that it's not 100% is good. It gives opportunities for both sides. Asking for 100% counter is like asking for it being physically impossible to hook same survivor twice if nobody else was hooked in the meantime - unrealistic and bad for game.
About the lounge - it means you can mindgame it even more - you don't need (and shouldn't) miss on purpose all the time. And all exhaustions (maybe except headon) are designed to prolong chases. So you ask what's the alternative? That survivor runs off with sprint burst? Will you complain about sprint after DH then?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359831#Comment_3359831
There's no information for that (but being SWF). With DH you get the info and can mindgame. That's totally different. Not even comparable
Being near a pallet is already a highly favorable scenario for survivors. Then Dead Hard comes along and complicates things even more for the Killer. Or if the Survivor is caught in the open, Dead Hard buys them an extra 3-5 seconds at minimum, maybe even gets them to the next pallet.
Also, Scott's scenario assumes that the Survivor ASSUMES you're going to lunge before you actually do it. If Survivors don't make that assumption and only DH on reaction instead, there's still nothing you can do.
Even if a Survivor falls for a fake lunge every single time, the perk still extended the chase considerably. Missing a lunge is costly. And I'd gladly play a hundred games against Sprint Burst if it meant I'd never have to worry about Dead Hard again.
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@Bwsted said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359831#Comment_3359831
I hope you're trolling.
I doubt it. Now you know how I feel when people tell me "Just wait it out bruh".
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@Gandor said:
For pallets argument:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_4SCwg74PY&t=2s
For powers - it's true for ranged killers. But there's no reaction to most killers. As DH got to 0.5s - you can now wait it out even with nurse. Most of the killers can avoid it now (but some can't).
For full lounge - it's the other way around. I find it quite a reliable way how to bait out DH. Just miss on purpose with full distance lounge if the survivor is hard to force to DH in other ways. Remember that DH is an exhaustion perk and 1.5s slowdown is a lot less in wasted time compared to sprints...
Why did you even post this video? The literal second sentence of it was "This is by no means 100%", the key part of the video's strategy is to NOT LUNGE, and it concluded by saying the Survivor can simply drop the pallet and get the stun anyway if they know you're not going to lunge.
So, never actually use your lunge to hit the survivors. Just miss on purpose so they get another loop or make it to the next tile. And this disproves my point how?
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Survivors DC for all kinds of reasons, many of them incredibly petty. I've seen loads of survivors DC on their first down, despite the fact that their team is winning.
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Trapper. The sheer time investment required just to use his power is enough to cost him multiple gens at the start of the match, and these are traps that can be spotted very easily, and neutralized quickly and painlessly by the survivors if spotted before a chase has started.
Killers like Freddy have pitifully weak powers, but Trapper's power is so weak and time-consuming that in some matches, it can make you question if it was worth using at all.
Trapper mains are a rare breed. The most famous one I know of (Otz) has actually said Trapper is no longer his favorite, saying it's near-impossible to properly hide a trap on most maps.