Monlyth

@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3310067#Comment_3310067
It would be ONE Survivor, while TWO do gens.
And they would run to the hook the second Bubba started his chainsaw sweep. Suddenly, Bubba has 0 charges, they regenerate slowly, and he's recovering from a hit that did NOTHING, giving the chainsaw-immune Survivor ample time to unhook and bolt.
This idea is horrible and easily abused, like every 'fix' Survivors come up with. If you 'fail to see' the disadvantage, it's because you're ignoring it to give Survivors a mechanic they can maliciously abuse at will.
Here's the real fix for Survivors: If a Killer is camping; Give the hooked Survivor extra BP for being a distraction while the other 3 do gens and leave.
Killers will soon learn to stop camping the MOMENT Survivors stop rewarding it with this 'I deserve unhooks because I want them' mentality. Survivors keep rewarding camping, then scream about how 'unfair' it is that the Killer is not forced to 12 hook while they run every second chance perk + BNPs + voice comms. 🤦‍♂️

The cooldown of Chainsaw Sweep is not so long that Bubba can't just M1 the unhooker afterwards.

Also, you are aware that hook timers are shorter than gen times? It takes 2 minutes for someone to die on hook. In the time it takes that person to die, the Survivors can do 4 gens- maybe. To prevent the Killer from getting a 2K by facecamping, they have to do at least one unhook.

in Can You Finally Nerf Cannibal's Camping? Comment by Monlyth January 4, 2023

@Stabby_Widdershins said:
Hahaha! Hahahahaha, no!
Survivors would just pack that perk that pauses hook states, then dry-hump the hook to punish the Cannibal.
Why is it every suggestion to 'fix' camping is nothing more than a massive punishment that Survivors can abuse maliciously?

If the Survivors are just dancing around the hook instead of unhooking, they're not doing gens and most likely giving Bubba free hits. I fail to see Bubba's disadvantage in this situation.

in Can You Finally Nerf Cannibal's Camping? Comment by Monlyth January 4, 2023

@LastTourniquet said:
1) Making gift of pain base kit would likely result in the follwing:
Survivors would refuse to heal, basically turning every game into a match against Plague or Legion. In order for this to be a large enough incentive for the killers to not tunnel the percentage of gen speed reduction would have to be fairly substantial, otherwise it would still be more beneficial to tunnel survivors out of the game. If you give the killers the free ability to reduce survivor generator speeds by any amount, let alone a substantial amount, all that does is cause more frustration for the survivors. Then you have the obvious problem that this would simply result in a "Meta" where the correct play for survivors is to simply not heal. This would result in a higher usage rate for Resilience and Dead Hard, two perks that already see a ton of play (so not really something you'd want to do). I am not sure how For The People works with Gift of Pain but that might be the only "safe" way to counter this effect, which isn't really a good thing.
Overall this wouldn't result in less tunneling unless the numbers were substantial enough, in which case it would be way to much of a buff for the side that already has a significantly higher win rate (60% is HUGE when talking about PvP games).
2) Giving the killer base kit detection
If we are talking about base kit BBQ this isn't a great idea for a few reasons, one of the main ones being that BBQ is already one of the more commonly used perks. Giving this perk to killers for free would only result in killers swapping out this perk for other things. Do you really want a 5 perk nurse/blight/spirit in your game? I don't think so. There are already a TON of different detection perks in the game (personally I think there are too many and its almost impossible to play around all of them as a survivor but that is my own subjective opinion). There are perks that give detection on the following events: Downing a survivor, picking up a survivor, hooking a survivor, unhooking a survivor from specific hooks, healing a survivor, survivors letting go of generators, survivors completing generators, survivors opening chests, survivors going into the basement, survivors working on totems, survivors fast vaulting through windows, opening any locker, generators regressing, crows flying because they were disturbed by a survivor, being within 32 meters of a survivor at any given time (whispers). Honestly pretty much anything and everything a survivor can interact with there is a detection perk to help find them. There is no reason to give killers more detection for free with no repercussions.
3) Nerfing Dead Hard
They did that already. Thrice. Once by changing how the perk functioned (you have to be sprinting to activate it), once by changing it to an endurance effect instead of i-frames with a dash, and once by changing how the Endurance state functioned. I am not really sure how you could possibly nerf dead hard any further without removing it from the game or giving it extremely strict usage conditions that would make it utterly useless as an exhaustion perk. On the other hand I am not sure how you could buff the other exhaustion perks to make them more desirable without changing how the exhausted status effect works or greatly extending the sprint timer on the other perks (even extending it by 1 second is an additional 33% duration, which is massive). Dead Hard is also in an unfortunate place where it is simultaneously extremely strong and also needed to counter certain things.
Side note, your solution to tunneling is to Nerf one of the survivors anti-tunneling perks? That is kind of strange to me.
4) The basic game knowledge that recuing someone from the hook requires 2 survivors to be in the same place (except for deliverance) and you get a notification of where that is.
I can spit ball a few solutions to this problem really quick:
Give survivors a way to "silently" recue other players from the hook, even if this required a perk slot with a cool down to do so. This isn't the best solution as it might result in more camping than already exists due to killers not wanting to be blindsided about survivors escaping their hooks, but then again maybe not. This wouldn't remove the HUD changing from "hooked" to "injured", nor would it remove the fact that you can physically see their aura suddenly vanishing. My only concern with something like this is that it likely wouldn't see a lot of play from survivors unless it has some other additional benefit due to the lack of value that stealth perks have these days (there are too many detection perks to consistently stealth in solo queue).
incentivize the killer to go so far away from the hook that it isn't feasible to get back to the hook in time after an unhook. I am not sure exactly how you would do this. Devour Hope comes close but the range on its activate isn't long enough to prevent tunneling, or even camping with some killers (Huntress, Blight, Nurse ect.).
Buff and/or rework Borrowed Time (the perk, not base kit) in one (or more?) of the following ways:
Have Borrowed Time apply a sort of "healing received" buff to the unhooked player. This results in giving the player who did the unhooking more incentive to take protection hits, or even go down, for the player who got unhooked knowing that they will have an easier time getting healed which is a net positive in relation to just having the unhooked player go down again.
Revert it back to its original state where it gives both the unhooker, and the unhooked survivor endurance. With the last meta shakeup the changes to how fast killers can recover from hitting a survivor made it nearly impossible to unhook near a killer without going down yourself. The killer will hit you, wipe the blood off their weapon, and then hit you again all before you can unhook the survivor and make any distance, you can't even use dead hard in this situation because dead hard now requires you to be moving.
Increase the timer by 30 or 40 seconds instead of just 10. 10 seconds (on top of base kit) is simply not enough value for the perk to see play in the games current state. This additional time could even just be for the haste effect and not the endurance effect.
I want to be clear that these changes are not massive buffs to the survivor side and are strictly ways to prevent tunneling. Borrowed time, on its own, is somewhat lacking. The additional 10 seconds is nice but often times isn't enough to matter on its own. These are also just ideas that I came up with off the top of my head, I am sure I could come up with better ideas given more time.
To truly understand the problem with tunneling here is what you have to do. Think about any other team based player vs player game and then try and think of a legitimate situation where completely removing someone from the enemy team doesn't give your team a distinct advantage. That is the problem with DBD. It is a PvP Team based game (killer just happens to have a team size of 1) where one side has the ability to remove teammates from the other side.

1) Well, yes, I don't think Gift of Pain should be replicated exactly as it is, tbh. To clarify, here's what I think should be basekit:

After being unhooked for the first time, your repair and healing speeds are reduced by 16% for the rest of the trial.

Now, this probably wouldn't be enough on its own to stop tunneling entirely (In which case, number changes may be needed), but it would encourage the Killers more to just go chase someone else if the unhooked survivor has made chasing them inconvenient.

And yes, I'm aware that Killers have a high winrate. But it's worth noting that last I checked, there's a 15% difference in winrate between solos and SWFs, meaning the winrate for Killers flips to less than 45% against SWFs. So I think solo queue buffs are needed more than anything else to address the high killrates. Because I can tell you right now, against a coordinated SWF, Dead by Daylight becomes a fun-packed, family-friendly adventure where one innocent Killer gets viciously harassed by four sadistic bullies.

2) The benefit of BBQ and Chili is that it gives the Killer a reason to immediately go far away from the hook. And Nurse/Blight are a whole different conversation that I don't really wanna get into right now.

3) Well, you're right. To be honest, I think Dead Hard is a fundamentally bad design, and there's no saving it. Imagine playing a shooter where you have to wait a couple seconds before you shoot, in every single fight. In fact, Halo actually did that once with Armor Lock, and the playerbase predictably hated it.

I don't see how Dead Hard is an anti-tunneling perk. It comes into play every single chase whether you're being tunneled or not, and it doesn't even stack with Off the Record. It's one reason I think twice about switching targets, because if I go chase someone else, they'll definitely have Dead Hard to try and make me regret it.

4) Yes, not knowing when an unhook has happened would definitely encourage either proxy camping, or use of perks like Floods of Rage to know when an unhook has happened anyway. Not knowing when an unhook has happened means the Killer can't take their eyes off the hook.

Your Borrowed Time solutions all come with some pretty significant problems: Survivors can use them in ways other than the intended purpose of preventing tunneling. This is something that already happens to some extent with basekit BT and Off the Record; freshly-unhooked survivors will bodyblock the Killer going "Ooh, smack me, smack me, waste your time!". They don't use it as an insurance policy against tunneling, they just use it as a third health state. Which makes the Killer want to tunnel them more after getting a free hit on them.

Your second solution (Giving Endurance to the unhooker) is especially bad; it actively encourages tunneling. It means the Killer has to go through three health states minimum to down the unhooker (Who presumably hasn't been hooked), but only needs to go through two to down the unhooked. In fact, Borrowed Time used to work that way, and predictably, it didn't discourage tunneling at all. Trading for a hook is bad for the Survivors, but it's not tunneling.

in Tunneling: Why Killers do it. Comment by Monlyth January 2, 2023

@Steakdabait said:
your last solution highlights the main issue " It seems like changing this would require reworking the entire Hook system, which probably isn't feasible." the core design goal of the killers and survivors is what makes tunneling so sadly effective. It would require a overhaul of the core gameplay loop of dbd, something that the devs have never done. I don't believe that incentives and the encouragement of random rewards will reduce tunneling in a meaningful way. This also doesn't include that killers may tunnel not because it's effective but because they want to BM the survivors.
If you want to reduce tunneling then survivors need the threat of heavy handed anti tunnel perks or core mechanics redesigned in a way that makes tunneling not as rewarding as it is. The simplest change would be just to revert DS back to 5 second, since i doubt we're gonna be getting sweeping gameplay changes anytime soon.

Bear in mind that Killers tunneled through 5 second DS all the same. And we've only gotten more anti-tunneling perks since then.

We've spent years using the stick to try and curb tunneling. It's time to use the carrot.

in Tunneling: Why Killers do it. Comment by Monlyth January 2, 2023

@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3308373#Comment_3308373
Yeah, that one perk is absolutely equivalent to having your entire build shuffled around by something out of your control, somehow.
Like, what? How does someone even have that thought? Utterly confusing.

If your opponent is using Dead Hard, or if you suspect they have Dead Hard, you can't lunge, you can't swing instantly when the surv is in range, and you can't use a power like Huntress Hatchets without giving the survivor a free speed boost and putting yourself in cooldown. Even at its weakest, Dead Hard denies multiple basic gameplay options to the Killer.

Killer mains will often breathe a sigh of relief when they see the Survivor use some other Exhaustion perk, because that means they can just swing and hit the Survivor, and they go down. End of story. What a concept.

in New Game Mode Idea Comment by Monlyth January 2, 2023

@hiken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3308389#Comment_3308389
u are not sugesting anything at all or added anything to my responde people use this perk because of the tunnel so u last more because killers WERE GONNA TUNNEL REGARDLESS, so killers know there is a MASSIVE REWARD in tunneling someone out so they will do it even if u delete DS, DH, OFF THE RECORD, u know heaven paradise for killers do u think they would change thier gameplay? OF COURSE NOT in fact they would tunnel even more because its now even easier u are not understanding how things work.

I think DS and Off the Record actually do discourage tunneling, it's only Dead Hard I take issue with. Because again, if all 4 survivors are running it, that gives the Killer an enormous incentive not to switch targets.

Perks like Sprint Burst and Lithe actually would discourage tunneling a lot more, because combined with Off the Record, you not only have a second health state but gain a huge amount of distance on the Killer after being unhooked.

in Dead Hard should deactivate for the rest of the trial if used successfully, and also get buffed Comment by Monlyth January 2, 2023

@hiken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3308320#Comment_3308320
reason why the perk must not be nerfed instead even buffed so we encourage fairer gameplay like old DS did, killers slugged fearing DS killers should fear tunneling or not fearing it but punished greatly for it. tunnelign is easy and uninteractive for the survivor because the game is not balanced for 1 surv to take that hard tunel, u are not strogn enough to do it, its a 4v1, and killers want to make it 1 v 1 this way and we all know who has the advantage that way.

Well, if you want Killers to not tunnel, Dead Hard isn't the perk for the job. As I said, if anything, it encourages tunneling, because switching targets means having to go through three health states as opposed to two.

in Dead Hard should deactivate for the rest of the trial if used successfully, and also get buffed Comment by Monlyth January 2, 2023

I think breakable walls like Dead Dawg would be good, yeah.

And yes, as other people have said in this thread, it is mind-gameable, but it's a pretty strong tile nonetheless. Though it only really becomes game-breaking when it can be chained into other strong tiles.

Also, this isn't particularly rational, but it irks me how a tile that's literally named "Killer Shack"- implying it's the Killer's turf- is one of the safest places for a Survivor to be.

in Is Shack a good tile? Comment by Monlyth January 2, 2023

If only more Survivors had your idea. I certainly don't get thanked for it when I don't run the perk.

in Today I played against a killer who didn't run Eruption <3 Comment by Monlyth January 1, 2023

@camping_site said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3307081#Comment_3307081
Killers tunnel because it is easy and efficient. DH has nothing to do with it.

Until you ask yourself WHY it's easy and efficient. Because a freshly-unhooked survivor only has two health states at the most, and everyone else has a maximum of 3.

in Dead Hard should deactivate for the rest of the trial if used successfully, and also get buffed Comment by Monlyth January 1, 2023

@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3307073#Comment_3307073
Than those people are shooting themselves in the foot. Since disconnects don´t count for statistics. Preventing nurse from getting nerfed.
Perhaps its that "people who actually know what they're talking about and know how to play the game" aren´t as good as they think they are.

Or maybe BHVR should count DCs in kill rates. Or maybe this is an excellent example of why statistics aren't everything.

How many comp tournaments have you won? Because the consensus is clear among comp players of all kinds: Nurse is the best Killer in the game, and you'd be laughed out of the room for suggesting it's anyone else. And I'd say they know a little more about the game than you do.

in why don't the Devs give us an rework update on NURSE Comment by Monlyth December 30, 2022

@camping_site said:
With current killers playstyle every other match - camp/tunnel meta - that would be a hard NO.

Dead Hard encourages tunneling. Why commit to a chase on someone else when they have a third health state and the guy who just got unhooked has two, tops (With Off the Record)?

in Dead Hard should deactivate for the rest of the trial if used successfully, and also get buffed Comment by Monlyth December 30, 2022

@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3306604#Comment_3306604
Well, her kill rate in the top 5% mmr still isn´t higher than Wesker, Pinhead or Sudokus. So the people that dc against her are doing themselves no favor. Maybe if they stopped doing that, the kill rates would reflect that. But until then...

Or maybe her kill rate isn't as high because people who actually know what they're talking about and know how to play the game know that Nurse is the strongest Killer in the game and has been for years, so Nurse is the Killer they're most likely to DC against.

in why don't the Devs give us an rework update on NURSE Comment by Monlyth December 30, 2022

Dead Hard is a fundamentally bad design. There's no saving it.

In the best-case scenario with no pallet shenanigans involved, assuming you can reliably bait it out by hugging the survivor's back for a few seconds, the counterplay to DH is to never lunge, and never use a reactable power like Huntress hatchets. In other words, the main function of Dead Hard is taking basic gameplay options away from Killers.

Not only that, but the counterplay of baiting it out means that you will spend 2-3 seconds just staring at the survivor's back in every. Single. Chase, if they haven't shown you another Exhaustion perk. That will never NOT be boring to play against.

in Very simple way to fix DH without reworking it dramatically. Comment by Monlyth December 30, 2022

Killers would most likely engage in this sort of behavior with or without Eruption. It's unwise to commit to another chase when you have an impending unhook to punish unless you're confident you can end said chase very quickly.

Still, you need to keep yourself busy somehow before the unhooker comes. So you go to the nearest gen. If a survivor's there, cool, maybe you can nab a quick injury, or maybe they pre-ran and it'd take too long. Either way, since the unhooker's probably about to arrive by the time you reach that generator and you don't have time for another full chase, now's a good time to give it a quick kick and head back. Again, with or without Eruption.

And this is also a behavior that Killers will engage in whether they fully intend to tunnel or not. Going back to the hook is a guaranteed opportunity to interrupt multiple survivors at once, and likely to get an easy hit too.

in Eruption Encourages Tunneling Comment by Monlyth December 30, 2022

@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3306556#Comment_3306556
How are the stats misleading? Either she gets kills (like everyone claims) or she doesn´t. Starstruck Nurse that downs everyone at 5 gens (like a video showed) would indicate a high kill rate. But when the other nurse players don´t play optimally, it drags the overall kill rate down. So its actually an exception and/or the survivors playing against her were simply bad. People have been complaining that she´s braindead easy, when she has actually one of the highest skill ceilings.

No, she just has a higher skill floor. And unlike other Killers, she cannot simply resort to M1s if the user hasn't finished learning muscle memory with her. So baby Nurses have the lowest kill rates of all baby Killers.

Once you have the muscle memory down though, there's really not much else to learn. Her power is literally just to teleport to a Survivor's location. Once you know how to teleport where you want, the rest is easy.

Also, DCs don't count as a kill for kill rates.

in why don't the Devs give us an rework update on NURSE Comment by Monlyth December 29, 2022

@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3306492#Comment_3306492
Nah
Those people are just exagerating and don´t want to improve/adapt their playstyle.

I would not tempt fate if I were the devs. Ignoring community feedback is the surest way to run an ongoing game into the ground.

@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3306508#Comment_3306508
Or... and hear me out. They don´t want to make decisions only based on the current opinion of the day. Like they did with the original Freddy release. Where they nerfed him 1 week after his release, because people disconnected against him.
Having the lowest kill rate on average and no particular high kill rate in the top 5% also plays a factor here. As her being unbeatable would reflect in the statistics.

Dude, she's been the go-to Killer for competitive play for YEARS. Everyone's been complaining about her for YEARS. She's been the undisputed queen of the meta practically since people first started trying to play the game seriously. She's often banned in tournaments, including the DbD community cups, which have received official support.

Nurse's kill rate is an excellent example of how statistics can be woefully misleading.

in why don't the Devs give us an rework update on NURSE Comment by Monlyth December 29, 2022

@Tsulan said:
I wonder what would happen if the devs actually came out and said: "nurse is fine, no changes planned"

A fair number of people would probably say "Huh, I guess now's a good time to quit."

in why don't the Devs give us an rework update on NURSE Comment by Monlyth December 29, 2022

I rarely use Eruption- it's pretty weak against SWF groups, which is where I need an optimal setup most, because they can just say "I'm about to go down, get off the gens" on comms. For that reason, I prefer Pain Res (Possibly with DMS on certain Killers), combined with info and anti-chase perks.

And it's really not hard to see why Eruption is an unfun perk to play against. 25 seconds of stopping the survivors from doing anything. So yeah, have your Eruption nerf/rework, Survivors. This is not what a well-designed slowdown perk looks like; BHVR can do better.

in Eruption and call of brine without fail, shows up in every single game Comment by Monlyth December 29, 2022

@Tsulan said:
If it was only filtering profanities, then i wouldn´t have a problem with it. But its censoring all kinds of words that are not profanities and makes some conversations really hard.

You know, I had a wholesome endgame chat for once because the enemy team had a Vittorio who was sandbagging his teammates, pointing to them with his flashlight and doing whatever he could to give them away. So in response, I killed him first. The endgame chat was one of the survivors saying something like "Vittorio was throwing", and I said "Yeah, that's why I killed him first".

The game censored the word "Killed". In a game where the primary goal is killing people's virtual avatars, you are not allowed to say that you killed someone.

in Why does a +18 game have a profanity filter? Comment by Monlyth December 29, 2022

@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3306041#Comment_3306041
In DbD there is no one, clearly defined win condition. Some people want that escape or 4K, some people want to get their daily or complete that tome challenge, and everyone should be afforded the chance to do it, and not have the game artificially cut short because one of the five wasn't "having fun".
People will cite games where they are being trolled or bullied, but those are outliers, really. No one is entitled to the game being fun all the time in a game like this, but they should be entitled to a full game each time they queue up.
Now things have been suggested that seem to make good sense (like boosting the quitter/abandoned bonus), but that would likely increase the rate of DCs, and creates more issues than it solves. And yes, the killer DCing is in many ways less of a slight to other other players than survs DCing, but it's not harmless.
But again, at the end of the day DbD is what it is, and there are defensible reasons to keep it that way. If you want to play games like the ones you keep citing, play one of them.

If dailies and tome challenges are that big a deal to you (Notably, Hearthstone has similar dailies and challenges but you don't hear them complaining about concedes), then just replace the Killer with a bot. Problem solved.

I dunno who you're queueing into, but matches where I don't get teabagged at the exit gates if all 4 survivors escaped are the exception and not the rule. If I refuse to go to the exit gates as I have no desire to watch helplessly as the survivors escape, I can expect them to wait an agonizing minute or more before they finally decide to leave. It's common for the survivors to trash talk me in post-game chat as well, especially if I tried something desperate to make up the difference as the game was slipping away.

Here I am saying, "We should improve this game somewhat" and your response is "And yet you play this game. Curious!" Do I really have to explain why that's a silly argument?

in Dbd is the only non-team game I know of that penalizes leaving Comment by Monlyth December 29, 2022

@Thusly_Boned said:
DbD is asymmetrical, fundamentally and inherently unbalanced and uneven. What each player goes into a match looking to accomplish may vary wildly, and with only a few exceptions, none are any more valid than another.
Rather than debate all these particulars, let's just distill it down:
The rules are what they are, and by queueing up for a match you are tacitly accepting that the game may play out in a multitude of different ways, and under a multitude of potential configurations. Many of those might turn out to not be all that fun for any one of the players involved. It is what it is. If you're not willing to accept that and play the matches out, play something else.
If the game makes you miserable often enough that being punished for DCing feels like a burden, do you even want to play DbD, really? Or do you just want it to be something it isn't?
Just don't DC, simple as.

Most of what you said can be applied to digital CCGs like Hearthstone. Card draw RNG and not knowing what your opponent's deck is can make any given match play out in a multitude of different ways. Unwinnable matchups, per se, are almost nonexistent; even if your opponent's deck counters yours perfectly on paper and they play 100% optimally, they can draw all the wrong cards at all the wrong times and still lose.

And many of those matches might turn out to not be fun at all for one or both players involved. One player may feel cheated because they had their opponent on the ropes, until the random numbers broke in their direction long enough to turn the tide. Another may feel robbed because they queued into the one deck that absolutely annihilates theirs, and there's nothing they can do.

So... what exactly about DbD is so unique that a Concede button is justified in those games but not Dead by Daylight? People use the Concede button regularly when they feel like the match is decided or they'd rather not keep going just on the off chance they'll somehow pull victory from the jaws of defeat, and most notably, nobody cares. In fact, you'll find many members of the community who ardently defend the Concede button, saying that, and I quote, "It’s everyone’s right to concede whenever they want". It's just a normal part of the game, because admitting defeat is as much a part of games as anything else.

in Dbd is the only non-team game I know of that penalizes leaving Comment by Monlyth December 28, 2022

@SmolBlob said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3305982#Comment_3305982
You ragequitting still screws over the survivors who wanted to play out an actual game. Also means they lose their item add-ons/offerings are basically wasted/etc.

If you played well enough for long enough that the Killer admits defeat outright, I'd call that a pretty complete match.

What, Killers don't lose their add-ons or offerings? They could probably have farmed at least a few more points if they had kept playing out the match as well.

If it's really that big a deal to you, the solution is to have bigger quitter bonuses, not to punish the Killer.

in Dbd is the only non-team game I know of that penalizes leaving Comment by Monlyth December 28, 2022

@TheWheelOfCheese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3305955#Comment_3305955
Non-team games, sure.
If you are even playing a casual team game with a bunch of friends and you walk off because you are done playing, the consequence is that your friends are probably going to be a bit pissed at you and think twice before playing another team game with you. Nobody is preventing you from leaving, but you're going to lose some goodwill / "social capital" by doing so.

And what does that have to do with playing Killers in Dead By Daylight? There are no teammates to disappoint.

in Dbd is the only non-team game I know of that penalizes leaving Comment by Monlyth December 28, 2022

@TheWheelOfCheese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3305949#Comment_3305949
I didn't defend my argument because you're not arguing in good faith. You're being hyperbolic and dismissing an analogy as a non sequitur as though it's supposed to be an exact comparison. (Hint: it's not.)
The point I was trying to make is that there are often real-world consequences for leaving in the middle of a game, and DBD isn't an exception to that, and that your "chained to the table" argument is utter nonsense.
I think there is an argument to be made that there are circumstances where this shouldn't apply to the killer, so I think we are in agreement there.

But there aren't real-world consequences to leaving in the middle of the game, and you'd be called silly for saying there should be. Few people would think to force someone to stay in a match they don't wanna play anymore, especially a non-team game. Most in-person games will let you forfeit with no questions asked, the only penalties being that it counts as a defeat.

in Dbd is the only non-team game I know of that penalizes leaving Comment by Monlyth December 28, 2022

@TheWheelOfCheese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3305427#Comment_3305427
If you think my analogy is a non sequitur, you should check out this other guy who compared a matchmaking ban to being chained to the table while playing cards!
Oh, wait...

Tu quoque fallacy. Not a good look when you can only defend your argument by pointing to a supposed flaw in someone else's.

in Dbd is the only non-team game I know of that penalizes leaving Comment by Monlyth December 28, 2022

@WesCravenFan said:
It's "fair" because this community is absolutely obsessed with "counterplay". Anything you can't completely shut down is unfair and needs "counterplay".

And as a consequence, we've created a mechanic that rewards bad play on the Survivor's part. Taking a hit while injured goes from being a detriment to a boon.

in dead hard vs some killers feels unreasonable Comment by Monlyth December 28, 2022

@TheWheelOfCheese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302930#Comment_3302930
This is a false equivalency. DBD isn't forcing you to finish the match, it just says that if you leave the match you may not play another for some amount of time.
There's plenty of professional sports where a player who makes a habit of being a bad sport can get themselves removed from the match and possibly banned from future play. That's not "chaining them to the table" and forcing them to play the match. It's saying "if you want to continue playing matches with us, you will show basic respect for your opponent," which is similar to what DBD does. There are plenty of real-life examples where refusing to participate will have negative consequences. This doesn't mean you cannot refuse to participate, it just means you must be willing to accept those consequences.
Now, to a degree, the situation is different for the killer because if they leave the survivors just get a free win. This is not too different from, say, resigning a lost game of chess. I agree that the killer leaving should be theoretically acceptable under some circumstances. The trick is allowing it without making it easy to sandbag to drop MMR. Right now you can sandbag by AFKing the whole match, but this is bannable. So we'd have to find a line where we say "before this happens you are probably sandbagging, but after it happens you aren't" and I challenge you to come up with one that isn't either extremely abusable to drop MMR, or so long into the match that the killer may as well finish it out anyway. (If every match were officiated by a human, it could be a judgement call on the part of that official -- for example, see the intentional grounding rule in American football -- but having a human officiate every match of DBD isn't feasible.)
DCs are hugely problematic on the survivor side, though. If you walk off the field during a soccer game and refuse to participate, you will almost certainly be kicked off of your team. Since DBD matchmaking basically creates ad-hoc teams, getting kicked off of that team is inconsequential, so there needs to be some deterrent to keep you from ruining every match you are placed in, so there needs to be some system to penalize routinely abandoning your "assigned team" mid-match.

Your professional sports analogy is a non sequitur. Resigning the match is not poor sportsmanship.

I mean... other games came up with solutions for this ages ago. Conceding only drops your MMR after a set number of turns, or a set number of minutes (Depending on the game).

I agree, DCs on the survivor side are a big problem and rarely acceptable. If the survivor team wants to admit defeat and move on to the next match with no penalty, they should have to take a vote first.

in Dbd is the only non-team game I know of that penalizes leaving Comment by Monlyth December 28, 2022

@Steakdabait said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304349#Comment_3304349
If those were SBs against oni he wouldn't have gotten his power in the first place. SB is simply the better perk against m1 killers. DH is better against killers with predictable but strong powers.

I find it hard to believe that one of the best Oni mains in the world would never, ever be able to nab a hit. Especially on maps that are actually balanced like Coal Tower. And once they do have the hit, suddenly Dead Hard becomes a lot more appealing against the Demon Dash-Demon Strike.

in Dead Hard still needs to go Comment by Monlyth December 27, 2022

@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304587#Comment_3304587
Yes, it was the meta perk then even though it underperformed in raw distance, but that has never been what Dead Hard is good at. It wasn't good at pure distance before, and it isn't good at pure distance now; before, it was used to lunge a short distance, to a pallet or window. Now, it's used to tank a hit and get less, but still decent, distance compared to using something like Lithe in exchange for it saving you from a deadzone, which the others can't do.
And yes, it's meta now too, or so it would seem; less so than before, but it does seem to have a higher pickrate than the others. That doesn't mean it's overpowered, though- hell, it doesn't even mean it's good, in the last stats we got to see Self-Care was in the top three survivor perks and that perk is often the weakest self heal perk available. Other perks that people run a lot are just "good", not "need to go" levels of overpowered. There are more things that go into pickrate than just strength- consistency, ease of use, how comfortable players have gotten using something that only got slightly weaker, things like that. If someone were to say DH is the most consistent Exhaustion perk and that's why it has such a high pickrate, I'd be inclined to agree; the risk that you'll not get to use it because the killer's good at baiting you is pretty easy to justify in the face of potentially saving yourself from deadzones. Does that make it OP? No, it doesn't even make it the most powerful tool available, it just makes it easier and more comfortable to use than the others.
I'm not trolling you just because we disagree, dude.

Okay, you're either arguing in bad faith or trolling. We already went over how Dead Hard outperforms Sprint Burst in pure distance, and if it can outperform Sprint Burst in pure distance, I'd say it's EXTREMELY good at pure distance. If you're just going to make the same debunked points over and over, it's not productive talking to you.