Monlyth
Monlyth
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@legacycolt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3357537#Comment_3357537
Nurse can stay the way she is as long as dead hard stays the way it is now 😎
No, nerf them both. Both of them make a mockery of the game's core mechanics.
@Johnagon_Infinity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3357500#Comment_3357500
Nurse is the culmination of literal thousands of hours of man-power in coding and people just want her to be eviscerated till only a select-few number of people can play her competently. BHVR has made a killer that is inaccessible for 90% of the playerbase because she requires significant time investment to become lethal with. Keep in mind, 90% of the playerbase are people who'd never come to these forums, work 9-5 jobs or go to school, and play at most 6 hours a week.
However, when mastered, her skill ceiling became quite shallow and she overperformed with certain addons and perk combos. So she was nerfed further. I know people still despise the fact she was nerfed from being #1 to still being #1, but look at it from BHVR's perspective. Why would they take this killer that is extremely well-made (in terms of playing her), very polished and fun --- and then just take her out back on shoot her? Makes no sense to ask from a company.
That's called the sunk-cost fallacy. And you wouldn't even need to undo all the previous work of the devs to make Nurse fair or balanced; you'd just need to limit the use of her power or change some of its rules.
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@Little_Kitten said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329733#Comment_3329733
From the moment someone asks for a character to be nerfed because the reason is that he/she doesn't like to play against, or can't get good results against (when it is nevertheless possible), it is an opinion, the consequence of a feeling, and not a concrete fact / reality.
To say that if a mechanic is not fun, it is because it is badly designed, is a fallacious argument, because it is a huge shortcut.
A player will not be able to be 100% ecstatic about every element of the game.
Some players don't like Legion, some don't like the Clown, some don't like this or that perk, some don't like this or that addon, some don't like getting hooked in less than 10s, some don't like it, etc.
But these are just opinions.
A fact will always prevail over an opinion.
There will always be players who don't like the nurse; that's not new. It is a unique killer, the only one with this difficulty and displacement. And the only one that requires its opponents to try harder, and be more coordinated.
Justify the previous nerves? Some are understandable, some are not.
Taking away the ability to have 5 blinks with 0 cooldown is completely understandable.
Making it so she can't use NOED or Starstruck anymore, I also completely understand.
Removing her recharge and range addons was not necessary.
Depends on the nerf.
Just because a nerf is put in place doesn't necessarily mean it was necessary and/or justified.
However, for example, even though I don't agree with removing her range and recharge addons, I figure it will make her a little less oppressive.
It will also help to see which players, on the other hand, don't know how to make any effort, and would rather continue to complain just because "I don't like the nurse, I don't want to make any effort."
So what exactly is the difference between the removal of omegablink Nurse and demanding an actual rework of Nurse?
Here are some facts: Nurse is undisputedly the strongest Killer in the game, has had a near-total stranglehold on the high-level Killer meta for, what? 6 years? And nothing short of a rework or some extremely harsh nerfs is ever going to change that. That'd be more than enough justification for most games to go through with some changes.
Nurse is what League of Legends players like to call a "balance nightmare". A character whose kit is so fundamentally powerful, whose playstyle is so all-or-nothing, that no amount of number changes will ever put them in a satisfactory position. They will forever fluctuate between oppressively powerful and useless. Though unlike other gaming companies, BHVR has been EXTREMELY hesitant to bite the bullet on any meaningful changes, so we've never seen the latter on Nurse.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3330048#Comment_3330048
Yes, no one complains about them because they aren’t used anymore. BHVR gutted them and now almost no one uses them because they aren’t worth using.
A-tier isn't worth using? I mean, sure, top MMR might not have that many of them, but that's more because Blight and Nurse are just on a whole different level from everyone else. Do enough nerfs to the outliers on the Killer roster, more generic Killer buffs, and what Killer you play at the highest skill level becomes much more a matter of personal preference.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3330033#Comment_3330033
I guarantee you blight will be next. First we had Spirit threads, then pyramid head, then Deathslinger. All were nerfed into the ground
Well, sure, Blight's gonna be changed, some of his addons are pretty overtuned, but I doubt you're gonna see people clamoring for a rework anytime soon, like they have been for Nurse. And Spirit/Pyramid Head are both still A tier, nobody complains about them.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3330029#Comment_3330029
The problem is that “fun” is code for “I don’t like losing” in most cases. The devs seem to not understand this problem.
Sure, people generally don't like losing, but you don't see anywhere near the volume of complaints about Blight as you do about Nurse, despite him being much more common on the ladder. The consensus is that he "plays by the rules" and so doesn't feel as jarring to play against. Most suggestions for changes to Blight are simple number tweaks and addon changes instead of overhauls.
The mark of truly exceptional multiplayer game design is being able to consistently deliver a fun experience, win or lose (Even if the former is usually more fun than the latter).
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3330006#Comment_3330006
I’m saying that if a player has put in the time to master looping, learning Nurse isn’t that hard. Part of my point though is that most haven’t mastered looping either.
As for the meta/mechanics thing, it simply isn’t true. This isn’t a board game and no one gets to make house rules. People love spamming that “she breaks the rules” when the reality is that there are no rules. BHVR has put her in the game, therefore she plays within the game. People not liking something because it’s different isn’t justification for a nerf.
I mean, yeah, the devs are essentially gods, and what they say goes, but that's not a great attitude to have going into game design. The unused pallets and windows sitting around the map do not go unnoticed by Survivors. And having to forget everything you know about looping, the thing you've spent most of your time up to this point trying to master, just to accommodate a single character out of 30 does not sit well with most Survivors.
And if a player plays through your game as instructed (In this case, listening to you when you tell them to forget all about looping for this one specific character) and they did not have fun, that is 100% the designer's fault.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329881#Comment_3329881
Your scenario is flawed. If someone has truly mastered looping (which is not true for most players), learning how to play against Nurse isn’t that big of a push. My solution? BHVR should focus on teaching people how to play and not nerfing things simply because people complain. I put in time to learn how to use Nurse and how to play against her; no one is exempt from learning because they chose to boot up the game.
At the risk of sounding like a “back in my day” person, why can’t people devote time to learning a game? If they choose not to, fine, but they have no right to complain about losing to someone who has put in more time and is better at the game.
What makes you say it isn't that big a push? Little of what applies to conventional looping applies to playing against Nurse. No windows, no pallets, no tiles. Climbing to the top of a 2-story building barely even slows her down.
And I think a lot of people don't really feel like they're playing Dead by Daylight anymore when they're playing against Nurse, they're playing Nurse by Daylight. And given how differently it usually plays, and how often you lose anyway even if you're really good at it, it's not to a lot of people's liking.
In my experience, when there's one character that's so meta-definingly powerful, and changes the rules so radically that the whole game revolves around their abilities instead of the game's actual core mechanics, the playerbase hates it.
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@foxsansbox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329908#Comment_3329908
His words were, in fact, lost on you.
Your contribution to this thread so far has been fact-checking me (And, well, good on you for that), and then spending all the rest of your time parading it around as the end-all answer to this discussion while doing your best to antagonize me in the process.
Projection, indeed.
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@VikingDragonXii said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329908#Comment_3329908
But it's beyond talking about balance at this point because everyone who voice thier opinion that was counter to yours was met with a "No Your Wrong" style statement then you giving a misquote by Hens as your reason. You have also made blanket statements with nothing backing it as well.
With how you reacted to everyone it seems like you don't want to have a civil discussion if people don't share your opinion.
It's not a misquote; I quoted it from the description of Hens' latest YouTube video, word for word. Go to his channel, see for yourself. The issue is the quote was missing context.
Exactly how am I supposed to disagree with someone without saying "No you're wrong, here's why you're wrong"?
I have been quite civil in this thread with people who do not show active hostility towards me and throw constant accusations or insults at me. Such as how my conversation with AJStylez ended, after he made it clear he meant no personal offense.
And, well, it's easy to feel insulted when the entire argument of most people defending Nurse in this thread boils down to a personal attack: "Everyone who doesn't like Nurse and wants her changed is just bad".
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@foxsansbox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329881#Comment_3329881
Sorry. I don't care about the slights you've experienced from other forum goers, feel free to call them out. I'm talking about your behavior, you can do your two wrongs calculus with someone else, too.
Well then, why don't we talk about the time you insulted my intelligence and claimed that Hens' words "Would be lost on me" and refused to elaborate, forcing me to go to Hens' channel and dig up the clip myself if I wanted to hear any of what he actually had to say (And you wouldn't tell me where he said it until I asked you)? Or how you decided to take a dig at me on stream while you were asking Hens your question?
If you're gonna be this spiteful over something as simple as game balance, I can see why you're not interested in talking much further.
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@foxsansbox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329646#Comment_3329646
You took a single statement from a normally very objective streamer, turned it into hyperbole, and then argued that hyperbole as fact even after getting called out and then dragged out the interaction pointlessly.
I'm not interested in your moving goal post.
And you, along with your fellow Nurse mains, have posted wall of text after wall of text attacking my character, insulting my skill, claiming that I didn't respond to certain talking points when I clearly did, and taking every opportunity to berate and degrade me, even when I'm not present. But it's all justified when your team does it, right?
I had the spine to admit that I was wrong. I've tried to be as cordial as possible. I've taken the time to explain myself in detail multiple times, even when I had to repeat myself. I cited my sources and used full, direct, verifiable quotes, giving you every opportunity to prove me wrong. But oh, I was wrong on this one specific point, so now it's all intolerable and everything I say is invalid?
If you're not interested in having a good-faith discussion on Nurse, just say so.
@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329697#Comment_3329697
I base my opinions in my game experience (over 3000 hours) using and playing against Nurse. I am able to play against and have seen survivors who know how to play against Nurse. Even when I have a bad chase against her, I usually last longer than the vast majority of my teammates. I can’t draw any other conclusion than people don’t want to learn. As Nurse, an alarming number of people either don’t try to dodge me at all or they try to loop tiles as if she is a basic killer. The playerbase is the problem, not Nurse.
So what solution do you propose to fix this issue with the playerbase? Because fighting against the playerbase is usually a losing battle. It's hard enough for Survivors to learn how to loop normally; learning how to play against a Killer that throws all the conventional looping mechanics out the window on top of everything else is asking a lot, especially considering it's hard to even tell what good play looks like against Nurse. Because even the best Nurse loopers still get caught anyway in a pretty short timeframe, what with her being god-tier and all.
Nurse is just one of 30 Killers; having high-level play revolve around her chase mechanics and nothing else is a jarring experience to say the least, and I'm sure it discourages a lot of people, particularly people who have gotten good at conventional looping, from getting into competitive play.
Imagine, if you will, a Survivor who has, through trials and tribulations, become an expert at looping. They know how to get the most out of every pallet, every window, every tile, every little prop with collision. And then, as the time invested honing their skills finally begins to pay off, they reach the MMR where it's all Nurse mains. And realize that, unless they wanna start throwing some games, playing against Nurse is their life now. All the skills they've learned up to this point are worthless. Now this Survivor has to learn chase mechanics from scratch, all over again, specifically for this one Killer. If that's not a moment likely to make them go "I don't wanna play Survivor anymore", I dunno what is.
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@Rogue11 said:
Might be a hot take but I consider Wesker the standard for a well balanced, fun but fair killer, like Billy before he was nerfed. Blight on the other hand...
Blight needs addon adjustments, but I think he's a fundamentally sound design. And yeah, Wesker is pretty much the standard by which every other Killer should be judged, design and balance-wise. He's what you get when you take a power like Nurse's, and make it fair.
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@Little_Kitten said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329646#Comment_3329646
"Such as, Nurse is too strong. Luckily, we have an easy fix that would hardly even require any new code: Spasmodic Breath basekit."
To say that the nurse is above all other killers, yes, of course; to say that she requires much more control from her opponents than other killers, of course, is quite correct.
That someone (you, or anyone else) does NOT appreciate having to deal with a killer of this difficulty is completely understandable, but that doesn't mean she's not fine the way she is, nor does it mean that any of this is anything other than a feeling.
And again, this proposition about the Spasmodic breath is not the consequence of a real problem, but simply an opinion that does not reflect a reality.
"Nurse's counterplay is tilted too heavily in her favor (Pre-nerf Spirit comes to mind)."
Since we're talking about the nurse's counterplay, I wouldn't say it's leaning in her favor.
Rather, I would say that it is the most complicated counterplay in DbD, as it will require the survivors to not only play differently than against any other killer, to be much sharper in their actions and decisions, and to surround themselves with a really strong team if they are to compete with the very good nurses.
Afterwards, of course, against nurses who are struggling, even if the 4 survivors are not experts, they will still be able to get good results, of course.
"Nurse ignores too many gameplay mechanics (If Nurse knows where you are and is within ~24 meters of you, she can hit you, very quickly and consistently at that. No exceptions. No other Killer can claim that)."
The problem with this sentence is that you are just talking about the gamedesign. Yes, the nurse is the killer with the most powerful move. Indeed, she can be the most oppressive; of course, if you compare her to other killers, for the same mistake, in front of the nurse, it can be much more oppressive.
But that's just the definition of a nurse.
That's what she is. And that's what survivors have to deal with when they face her. And they can.
So maybe some people don't like the fact that they have to raise their level of defense higher than the other killers, but that's just a feeling, an opinion.
So let's take this argument at face value. That every complaint about her is just based in "feelings". How does that invalidate the argument?
Because this is a game, and if a game's mechanic is making the game less fun for a significant portion of the playerbase, it is a poorly designed mechanic.
And more importantly, how do you justify any of the nerfs in the past 7 years if not with "This feels bad to play against"? What was so special about Spirit that made her warrant a nerf? How about Ruin? Decisive Strike? Dead Hard? Moris? Keys? The basekit Killer buffs? I mean, Spirit wasn't even the strongest Killer at the time. In every case, the game was, if not balanced, then at least functional at the time. Comp players at the highest skill level could have a balanced match, depending on the ruleset.
So what is it? What's the secret ingredient that makes you say "Yes, a change is warranted"?
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329533#Comment_3329533
You cited one comp player. You don’t get to pretend that Hens represents everyone
So on what exactly do you base your opinions that Nurse is just fine as-is, and everyone who complains about her or says she needs changes are all just noobs? What exactly do I need to prove to you to convince you that Nurse needs changes?
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@foxsansbox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329540#Comment_3329540
Really. I went into the stream and asked him, because why take your bastardization of his quote at face value when I can get the answer straight from the source? If you don't believe me you can look up today's VOD, he was playing Freddy on Swamp when I asked him, you shouldn't have trouble finding it. You know, if you insist on assuming I would make it up.
Because that is what you are doing. You are latching onto a single quote, exaggerating and distorting it, and then parading it around as the end-all answer to this discussion.
Projection really is self-incriminating.
Fine, I went and looked it up (Glad to see you took the opportunity to badmouth me behind my back, by the way). Even asked him myself right before a Knight match on Garden of Joy. To paraphrase slightly, he told me "In theory, it has no counterplay. If a Nurse is trying to kill you, you're going to die unless they're omega-boosted, but the same is true of a NOED Bubba tunneling you. That doesn't mean there's no counterplay. You can counterplay a Nurse, she's just really strong."
So, fine, I was wrong. I will not claim that Nurse has no counterplay whatsoever. But that doesn't mean she's fine as-is, so let's move on to other talking points, shall we?
Such as, Nurse is too strong. Luckily, we have an easy fix that would hardly even require any new code: Spasmodic Breath basekit.
Nurse's counterplay is tilted too heavily in her favor (Pre-nerf Spirit comes to mind).
Nurse ignores too many gameplay mechanics (If Nurse knows where you are and is within ~24 meters of you, she can hit you, very quickly and consistently at that. No exceptions. No other Killer can claim that).
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@foxsansbox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329533#Comment_3329533
By the way, I literally just asked Hens if he believes Nurse has counterplay.
"Absolutely."
He elaborated further, but it's clear it would be lost on you.
Really? Because I just looked at Hens' latest YouTube video and I can give you the full quote, one that you can go look up yourself, right now, in the video's description: "On a high level, the only way to counter Nurse is to die in the right spot away from generators."
I can substantiate my claims with more than just hearsay. Can you?
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@foxsansbox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329528#Comment_3329528
You are the only one misrepresenting. There are plenty of counters to good nurses.
Heck, they're not even great nurses. How is this getting passed you?
Comp players would disagree. So what makes you think you know better than Hens how to counter a Nurse?
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@foxsansbox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329480#Comment_3329480
As long as you keep representing "good Nurse"s as an insurmountable, uncounterable monolith, the entirety of your argument is not just disingenuous. It's wrong.
I've made it clear multiple times now that Nurse is not unbeatable, but there's a big difference between lacking counterplay and being unbeatable; see pre-rework Legion. They lacked counterplay in chase, but they were not unbeatable because there's more to the game than whether or not you can outplay the Killer in a chase.
So, again, stop misrepresenting me.
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Dead Hard could be trash-tier and it would still be a poorly-designed perk. Even discounting the lose-lose situations it can force at pallets, it makes the Killer second-guess every swing they make, whether the Survivor has the perk or not.
Is it worth it to throw a hatchet? Will I regret it if I go for a lunge? How long do I need to stare at the Survivor's back to bait the DH? Should I swing into it when they run straight into me? How much distance will I lose this time?
I've had enough. The perk needs to go.
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@VikingDragonXii said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329423#Comment_3329423
You are the first person EVER I have seen on these forums to use the term "macro" in any way in a discussion.
Again you say counter plays are tilted in her favor how so? If they are in her favor then they are not COUNTER plays. You seem to be the one moving the goal post and use the same song and dace as a rebuttal without going deeper into any of it in hopes someone will get tired of your banter and leave the discussion so you count it as a "win"
Then you haven't been paying attention. A quick search yields plenty of other people using the term "macro play".
If they are tilted in her favor they are not COUNTER plays. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. They're not counters. They're so-called "counters" that are rendered irrelevant against a good Nurse.
You and everyone else defending Nurse in this thread seem to willfully ignore, misrepresent or misunderstand practically everything I say, because to do otherwise would mean admitting just how much truth there is to what I say.
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@Little_Kitten said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329355#Comment_3329355
I am not avoiding any argument, and I am completely willing to discuss it.
"When people explain that the main reason Nurse can be challenged by good teams has nothing to do with learning how to chase her and everything to do with good macro play, you don't care."
I confess I don't understand what you're saying: if a survivor team manages to get good results against a nurse, it has nothing to do with knowing how to make chases against her?
"When people point out that the Flashlight buys you an extra 2-3 seconds at best against a good Nurse, and that a Medkit would save you more time in the long run, you don't care."
I never said that this or that object is better or worse, I was only referring to the people who are very happy to say "The flashlight is useless against the nurse. The flashlight IS useful against the nurse, if it is used correctly. But I completely agree that everyone has the right to use whatever object they want.
"When people point out that the top comp players in the world say that there's nothing you can do against a good Nurse but work on your macro play, you don't care."
What do you mean by "work on your macro play" ?
"When people point out that the existence of bad nurses doesn't prove anything, you don't care."
I don't remember saying that the existence of beginning nurses proved anything? What is it supposed to prove ?
"When people point out that a good Nurse has basically no counterplay, you move the goalposts and claim that all that matters is whether or not she's viable, or whether or not you can win against her."
The phrase that comes up very often and always makes me laugh is, "The nurse has no counterplay." Because that is an absolutely false phrase.
On the other hand, it's obvious that a nurse has a more complicated counterplay, but that's obvious, and everyone knows it.
"When people point out that Nurse's main limitation is that it's only physically possible for her to dish out so many hits in a certain timeframe, and that good macro play is the main form of "counterplay" against her, you don't care."
Again, what do you mean by "macro" ?
"When the gameplay of people like Hens is brought up, tournament-winning players who say that Nurse has no counterplay, you don't care."
Are you saying that Hens said that the nurse has no counterplay?
So no, contrary to what you seem to want to indicate, I am always open to any discussion.
Then why do you misrepresent the people you're arguing against so much? Most of the talking points you claimed nobody answers have already been answered in this thread, multiple times in some instances; is it really so hard to go back and reread?
I confess I don't understand what you're saying: if a survivor team manages to get good results against a nurse, it has nothing to do with knowing how to make chases against her?
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Every trick in the book against a Nurse is next to useless against a good Nurse. Comp players mostly just hold W and die far away from any generators that are being worked on.
I never said that this or that object is better or worse, I was only referring to the people who are very happy to say "The flashlight is useless against the nurse. The flashlight IS useful against the nurse, if it is used correctly. But I completely agree that everyone has the right to use whatever object they want.
If an item meant to help you in chase gives you strictly worse results than an item that just heals you after you've taken the hit, it's useless.
What do you mean by "work on your macro play" ?
Not surprised a player defending Nurse doesn't know what "Macro play" means... macro play is everything outside of chase. Deciding where to go, what generators to work on, what direction to lead the Killer, what is the most efficient use of your time. In other words, your chase mechanics are irrelevant to improving against Nurse.
The phrase that comes up very often and always makes me laugh is, "The nurse has no counterplay." Because that is an absolutely false phrase.
If you got hit by something and there was nothing you could do to prevent it, then that thing has no counterplay. All of Nurse's "counterplay" mechanics are so heavily tilted in her favor that a good Nurse renders all of it useless.
Are you saying that Hens said that the nurse has no counterplay?
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. In his latest video, Hens said, and I quote, "On a high level, the only way to counter Nurse is to die in the right spot away from generators." So, who are you to say he's wrong?
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@Little_Kitten said:
There is also something else that is sad, and that gives a good idea of the mentality of some people.
(first of all, I'm not saying that those who defend the nurse are all nice and those who are against the nurse are all bad, I've seen some people ask for the nurse to be buff because they couldn't play her... anyway)
When someone says something that goes in the direction of the "anti-nurse", then his words are taken up, repeated, amplified, and become almost an anthem.
On the other hand, strangely ...
- when we ask those who criticize the nurse to show how they play against her, nobody answers anymore;
- when we talk about the fact that even the best nurses in the game can be challenged by strong teams, nobody answers anymore;
- when we tell them that YES the flashlight IS effective against the nurse, nobody answers anymore; or else to say that it is insignificant;
- when we tell them to go see what Dan can do with a flashlight against a nurse, nobody answers anymore;
- when we tell them to go see what Dan can do against a nurse, and his level of "anti-nurse", nobody answers anymore;
- when we tell them that in 6.4, even the best nurses could have trouble, and therefore even more so in 6.5, nobody answers anymore;
- when we tell them that it is not what the nurse can do that matters, but whether she is viable or not (and she is), no one answers anymore;
- when you point out that even the best nurses in a tournament play dirty and camp/tunnel to make sure they win (which goes against the whole concept of an all-powerful person), no one answers;
In short, when FACTS are shown, strangely enough ... no one responds anymore.
Is there such a thing as a higher level of hypocrisy and selfishness?
When the gameplay of people like Hens is brought up, tournament-winning players who say that Nurse has no counterplay, you don't care.
When people explain that the main reason Nurse can be challenged by good teams has nothing to do with learning how to chase her and everything to do with good macro play, you don't care.
When people point out that the Flashlight buys you an extra 2-3 seconds at best against a good Nurse, and that a Medkit would save you more time in the long run, you don't care.
When people point out that the top comp players in the world say that there's nothing you can do against a good Nurse but work on your macro play, you don't care.
When people point out that the existence of bad nurses doesn't prove anything, you don't care.
When people point out that a good Nurse has basically no counterplay, you move the goalposts and claim that all that matters is whether or not she's viable, or whether or not you can win against her.
When people point out that Nurse's main limitation is that it's only physically possible for her to dish out so many hits in a certain timeframe, and that good macro play is the main form of "counterplay" against her, you don't care.
In short, when people point out the many, many obvious flaws in your reasoning, you ignore/dismiss it and act like you won the argument anyway.
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If Eruption and DH both get nerfed, I'll call it a pretty good patch. Eruption is a perk that literally stops your opponent from doing anything for half a minute, and DH makes you second-guess every damn swing you do. Is it worth it to use my power? Will I regret it if I go for a lunge? How much distance will I lose this time?
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@AJStyIez said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328831#Comment_3328831
Its not a personal attack on you so apologies if I was putting you in the crosshair, its just the culmination of 5+ years on the same topic. I've been here for every variation of Nurse and the most busted stuff for both Survivor and the rest of the Killer roster - I've seen and heard every possible opinion from both sides on the major DBD topics and its just history repeating itself. The changes we received were universally agreed upon regardless of individual's preferred roles, most people were perfectly fine with getting the Nurse changed again and the second they realized she's still S tier they have been perpetuating the feedback-loop all over
I understand fully that she is 120/100 compared to Trapper's 25/100 and Blights 100/100 and I've never disagreed that the gap exists and its too wide. The difference between my stance and perhaps yours and others is that I've historically proposed that her and any Blight-level characters stay around 100/100 while others are brought closer to that point and Survivors are unified in the form of QoL features such as the recent SoloQ HUD additions. I feel like other players don't agree or understand how this makes sense and they instead propose that she goes from 120/100 immediately to 75/100 or lower AND then we still buff Survivors as a whole and weaker Killers. I will ALWAYS stand against that particular perspective because its selfish and overdramatic in me and other's opinions due to the flipside
The DBD community over the years has routinely claimed that certain things need to be left alone or treated with extra caution because they want to prioritize the majority (Survivors outnumber Killers both in-game and IRL). The problem here is that the majority/minority have never fluctuated or swapped places in DBD, its always been the same structure simply due to the asymmetrical nature. For every Killer-exclusive player in the world there are dozens of Survivors. With that being said, If we're ALWAYS prioritizing the majority then how can we then consider the foundation of this topic to be "Balance" and "fairness"??
Its a slippery slope and when you give an inch, people will ALWAYS take a mile and that's why I'm so harshly against it. I'm a Survivor main myself and although several thousand of my hours have gone to Killer my first love will always be Survivor and everything involved in it. I guess I can consider it a weird variation of 'tough love'. I love Survivor so much in DBD that I find it offensive when Devs cater TOO much to us, not everybody is doodoo or in need of training wheels
At what point do the community and Devs draw a line in the sand and say people simply have to adapt to the Nurse's gameplay loop? Is it when she gets a 4th patch and Spasmodic Breath is basekit or is it when she has Spasmodic Breath basekit AND shes banned from using aura reading perks? You see where I'm going with this? At some point people have to accept the fact that her power is simply meant to be played differently as and against. I recall many Oni OP complaints too and I have no doubt that if she operated more like him it still wouldn't change the community's perception. I legitimately believe people will not be satisfied until she is just removed from the game or D/C tier
Honestly, I think Blight is a pretty good example of what a top-tier Killer SHOULD look like. His power is pretty disgusting in the right hands, but he still plays by the rules of the game for the most part. I haven't seen him get anywhere near the level of complaints that pre-nerf Spirit did, despite being in the exact same position as the second-best Killer in the game, and the most popular in high MMR. The only things I'd say are really worth looking into at all are his addons, not his basekit.
I really haven't seen the dynamic you're talking about in DbD discourse. It's usually been a constant back-and-forth between Survivor and Killer mains. Killers will get buffed in one update, then nerfed in the next. Survivors get buffed in one update, nerfed in the next. Moris are nerfed, then keys are nerfed. Killers get basekit buffs, then Survivors get solo queue buffs.
Well, you'll notice that the complaints about Spirit have largely ceased since her nerfs, and they didn't just move on to Blight as one might expect, him being the new second-best Killer and all. No, almost all of the complaints are centered around Nurse exclusively now. Survivors will probably find something new to complain about (My bets are on perks or tunneling), but at the end of the day, people hate Nurse for a reason. She ends chases in a ridiculously short timeframe, and nothing can stand in her way. Take steps to address the reasons people hate her, and the hate decreases accordingly.
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@Little_Kitten said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328831#Comment_3328831
"Did I not present a viable change that works for all levels of play? Spasmodic Breath basekit. Maybe the numbers would need to be adjusted, but it would make Nurse feel a lot more "fair" to play against, even if her power still ignores most of the game's mechanics."
That's what they say.
What you're suggesting is to completely destroy the nurse's gamedesign, in order to bring it in line with the level of the players who are bad against her.
It is doubly selfish. On the one hand you want to please those who are just bad, and on the other hand you offer a solution that would take away all the fun of playing the nurse.
"Because much like Oni or Legion, the fact that half the time, you're just playing against a normal M1 Killer makes it a lot more bearable when they do something crazy that you had no real way to avoid."
Again, you show that you are one of the people who can't play against the nurse.
You're literally asking for her to be an M1 killer at times.
Sorry, but the game doesn't have to be balanced around the lack of skill of people refusing to improve.
Also, just talking about the power of the nurse as, I quote, "something impossible to avoid" shows just how high you are when it comes to confronting the nurse.
So yes, it's not Dan who wants to, but the simple fact that he exists is the proof, if one were needed, that all the arguments that the nurse has no counter-game are just a bunch of meaningless words.
"I want the game to be fun for both sides"
That's the whole problem.
Do not mix balance and fun.
Even if you don't find it fun to play against the nurse; and that, you have every right to do so; it only reflects a preference in terms of personal amusement. It's juste an OPINION, and not a FACT.
It doesn't reflect a balance issue.
The nurse is the strongest killer in the game BUT she is not too strong.
You CAN not to like playing against her.
You CAN not to know how to play against her.
You CAN play with mates who don't know how to play against her.
You CAN be around people who don't know how to play against her.
You CAN be in one or more teams that don't know how to play against it.
But that doesn't mean she's too strong, and/or that the problem is her.
Exactly how does adding a limitation to Nurse's power "completely destroy" her game design? Was Legion's game design completely destroyed when they lost the ability to down with Feral Frenzy?
So if the strongest Killer in the game isn't too strong, a Killer that renders the chasing skills of tournament-level players largely irrelevant, then what exactly DOES constitute "too strong" for you? Why should I humor you when you move the goalposts?
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@AJStyIez said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328766#Comment_3328766
Thank you, this is exactly what I just tried to illustrate with my last 2 replies to them. People have all these harsh opinions for Nurse, but ask them to present VIABLE changes that work for ALL levels of play and they stay quiet scratching their head until they eventually ignore the question or move the goalpost
Ask them why their perspective should be validated and they'll tell you "She literally breaks the game". Uhh, we can sit here and point out 1-2 things about almost every Killer on the roster that "bReAk" the game in the form of addons or kits but they conveniently have no issue with that at all. You know why? Because even with those mechanics in place they can still maintain a positive W/L ratio against those Killers regardless of who's playing them
The Nurse hatemongering saga is a microcosm of what we see a lot in real life these days. People do all this preaching/advocating for 'balance' and 'equality' but based off their own words, actions and attitude you can easily tell its not really about either of those two things. A lot of these players that come to Nurse threads to recite the same 1-3 arguments using selfishness and bias under the guise of 'fairness for the majority'. If they truly cared about balance they would seek it and speak on it across all aspects of DBD but a lot of them don't. They don't care if Nurse is actually balanced or not, they just care whether or not they can loop her consistently the way they can with the rest of the roster. No matter how many nerfs she receives and how impactful they are they won't stop complaining until the answer to that question is overwhelmingly yes with minimal effort on their part
Did I not present a viable change that works for all levels of play? Spasmodic Breath basekit. Maybe the numbers would need to be adjusted, but it would make Nurse feel a lot more "fair" to play against, even if her power still ignores most of the game's mechanics. Because much like Oni or Legion, the fact that half the time, you're just playing against a normal M1 Killer makes it a lot more bearable when they do something crazy that you had no real way to avoid.
Nurse is unique in just how little works against her. Pallets? Blink. Windows? Blink. Walls? Blink. Hold W? Blink. Everything Survivors could normally do against a Killer will barely slow a Nurse down. Similar to why pre-rework Legion was so despised, despite them being absolute garbage.
Again, please point out where I showed disinterest in balancing the game for both sides, so I can correct that. I want the game to be fun for both sides, because if Survivors are satisfied with the way the game plays, then Killer queue times will be shorter. And if Killer is fun to play, then, well, I'll have more fun.
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@Little_Kitten said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328781#Comment_3328781
"And I'm sure a lot of people, including me, have been demanding her kit be overhauled. I missed the part where that's wrong or a problem."
I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise.
But the fact that some people complain that the nurse is too strong, and continue to do so now, after the arrival of 6.5, doesn't mean that it's true at all.
It just means that these people are bad in DbD when it comes to dealing with the nurse.
It's as simple as that.
Plenty of players who are much better than you or me have said that Nurse is busted. Who are you to call tournament-winning players bad?
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@AJStyIez said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328722#Comment_3328722
Wow, you actually stepped in the mousetrap in both of your points! Its as if I've seen this same conversation play out for the past 5+ years and know exactly how it goes already
I've been here maining Survivor and playing against/as the Nurse players you're speaking about. You literally just supported my stance with this one: People have been demanding for Nurse to have her entire basekit gutted or removed from the game entirely for years and what exactly does that achieve? BHVR and content creators have asked people for the same amount of years to give suggestions and they have, the universal responses on Nurse have been:
A - Remove exposed status synergy or alter most or all of the problematic addons since you can't really take away her blinks without defeating the purpose of her existence
B - Gut her kit, Give her a brand new power that doesn't "break the game", Delete her from the game or
Insert other vague and unrealistic suggestions that don't make senseAlso, It doesn't take a professional comp Nurse to cause people trouble (Correct), just like it doesn't take a Hen's-level SWF to wreak havoc on half of the Killer roster either. A LOT of you conveniently leave that second part out though which was exactly my point. They both create the same exact feedback-loop yet one is demonized while the other is downplayed with excuses and hyperbole. You don't need a tournament trophy from BotB/DBDLeague and a map-callout cheat-sheet from Hens in order to be an efficient SWF that plays at a high level in public lobbies. If one is universally accepted as 'nature of the beast' then why is the other not?
Okay? I'm sure my arguments sound quite similar to a lot of other people's arguments, considering how long Nurse has been in the game in her current state. And I'm sure a lot of people, including me, have been demanding her kit be overhauled. I missed the part where that's wrong or a problem.
If you just can't stand to have Nurse receive a different power entirely, fine. Just make it limited-use like Oni's. Oni would be just as rage-inducing, if not more so, if he could use Demon Dash/Demon Strike whenever he wanted. And you'd hardly even have to write any new code; just make Spasmodic Breath basekit.
Again, at what point have I ignored or downplayed the power of a high-level SWF? It's something that Killer mains have been complaining about for years. The solo queue buffs brought solos closer to the level of SWFs, but at some point, we're gonna need another round of Killer buffs to offset the power of a competent Survivor team, especially against mid- to low-tier Killers.
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@Little_Kitten said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328557#Comment_3328557
Who cares what era the nurse is from?
We should stop using this argument all the time.
The real question is: is the nurse too strong?
She wasn't in 6.4.
And so she is not in 6.5.
If the literal best Killer in the game isn't too strong, then nothing is. What kind of insane logic is that?
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@AJStyIez said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328557#Comment_3328557
Again, you just proved exactly what me and many others have been saying for so long. Allow me to point out how
A) "A fine example of what often happens when you try to please everyone with a compromise: You end up pleasing no one."
That's an extremely interesting point considering the fact that the whole foundation of the Nurse drama is that people were mad BHVR didn't wanna "please everyone with a compromise" for a lengthy amount of time.. But now all of a sudden when they finally did it its still not enough. That just reinforces what was already obvious years ago: Some people will never co-sign any change to Nurse regardless of how legit it is unless she just fell from S tier to B-D tier over-night. They don't solely have an issue with her because "she's a step above everybody else", they have an issue with her simply because her power is something they just don't want to play against even if it was nerfed another 5 times straight. As long as she can blink and remove some agency from the Survivors people will cry foul because they can't camp safe pallets and use mediocre pathing against her like they can for others
Sidenote) "What is this "You guys" you're using? You think I'm a Survivor main? You haven't seen my threads complaining about Dead Hard or suggesting Killer buffs to discourage tunneling, I take it."
"You guys" describes anybody that is still using the same talking Anti-Nurse talking points in 2023 that have been rebuttal'd since 2018 era of DBD. It doesn't matter which side they main, they all sound the same on this topic See B) for details on this
B) Comp player's have gotten gud in every sense of the term, and you'll find plenty of them echoing the same sentiment as everybody else
They've never said anything more than what should already be common sense for any grown adult that's played DBD between 2016-2022: The top percentile players can make her feel too oppressive.. You know exactly how the best Survivors in the world make SWF too oppressive for anybody that isn't a comp hug-teching/moonrushing Blight or 8k hour comp Nurse. The overwhelming majority of DBD players echo the "You can't change all Survivors' gameplay just based off the top %, what about the casuals and and the regular people that aren't aiming to play at that level 24/7? Games should be balanced for the majority" sentiment
They somehow abandon that same logic when it comes to whatever they've grown a hatred for (Nurse in this case). Sorry, but your average Prestige 5 public Nurse that the majority of people will come across are not lacking counter-play in any shape or fashion. If they are, PLEASE explain to everyone why an average 1-5k hour SWF is not viewed in the same light as Hen's SWF then. Either Nurse and SWF are both too much across the entire board or they're both fine for the majority and problematic at the top-end. You can't have your cake and eat it too, which one is it?
1) I dunno where you've been, but people have been demanding way more than a slap on the wrist or a "compromise" for Nurse, and they've been doing so for years. Nurse has been through plenty of slaps on the wrist before, and the complaints continued unabated. And why wouldn't they? What made her S-tier or unfun to play against has never been changed.
Nurse could be trash-tier for all the good it would do, honestly. She's just not fun to play against. Much like pre-rework Legion, her power effectively removes all agency from the Survivor playing against her.
2) It really doesn't take a top percentile player to make Nurse oppressive, though. Once you've got the muscle memory down, you're free to terrorize the enemy team and there's not much they can do, aside from stepping up their macro play. Otherwise, Nurse would be a rarity in high MMR.
Yeah, a good Nurse and a good SWF are both oppressive. Especially if that 1-5k-hour SWF brings great items and is going up against a Killer that isn't S-tier. Big surprise, when one side brings out the most broken, unfun tools available and the other side doesn't, the game becomes a frustrating chore for the opposing side.
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@AJStyIez said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328132#Comment_3328132
Lol its 2023 and people are still doing mental gymnastics to hatemonger Nurse even after she's received the nerfs that the majority of both sides agreed upon....
Its hilarious how still to this day people will say SWF and top-end Survivor gameplay is fine to go against because "Its very rare to go against a coordinated SWF (It literally isn't though) and the majority don't play at that level" but want Nurse completely gutted only because the top-end Killers can dominate with her. I said this on the forum last year and its crazy that it turned out to be true.. You guys never wanted fair Nurse nerfs or a rework, you guys just want her either removed from the game entirely or given a completely different power that makes her uniform with the other bullyable Killers in the middle of the pack. Comp players have also said that old Spirit was fine and that the game is historically Survivor-sided at the top, I don't recall many Survivor mains quoting them on those topics though. If anything, comp players have been historically shamed/ignored by most Survivors because their views on the game contradict each-other
Whenever comp players have said something that benefits Killer they're just "comp players in a non-comp game, who cares what they think? Their style doesn't apply to public lobbies" but the second they say something that average Survivors can relate to they're all of a sudden the voice for the entire community
"Nerfs that the majority of both sides agreed upon". A fine example of what often happens when you try to please everyone with a compromise: You end up pleasing no one.
What is this "You guys" you're using? You think I'm a Survivor main? You haven't seen my threads complaining about Dead Hard or suggesting Killer buffs to discourage tunneling, I take it.
I complain about Nurse because bad game design is bad game design, regardless of whether or not it's on my team. Nurse is a relic of a time when the devs gave practically no consideration at all to balance or counterplay when designing a new mechanic.
And I bring up comp players because the main argument to defend Nurse is that you just need to "git gud" if you don't like playing against her or die to her. Well, comp players have gotten gud in every sense of the term, and you'll find plenty of them echoing the same sentiment as everyone else.
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@Little_Kitten said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328425#Comment_3328425
EXACTLY.
And that's what a lot of players have a hard time understanding.
The nurse is the most powerful killer in the game.
And so this feature comes with its corollary.
The Nurse is therefore the killer that requires the most coordination and skill from the opposing team.
If you are playing soloQ, and your mates are not competent against the nurse, in addition to not being organized, you will certainly have a lot of trouble.
But it is not the nurse's fault.
Not the Nurse's fault?
Who completely invalidates every defense the Survivors normally have? Who reduces every chase to 20-30 seconds, regardless of skill level?
Tell me, how is it not the Nurse's fault?
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@Little_Kitten said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3326984#Comment_3326984
In theory.
But unlike a nurse who would be controlled by an A.I. and who would effectively make no mistakes, even the best nurses in the game make mistakes. Of course, much less than me, or other main nurses, but they are not exempt.
Otherwise, how to explain that even the best nurses in the game can be put in difficulty by teams who know what they are doing ?
Because teams who know what they're doing are good at macro play. They waste little to no time looking for generators, split on them perfectly, know how to avoid 3-gens, get the most out of perks like Deliverance, and always lead the Killer away from their teammates.
Being good at chasing Nurse, however, is not a major factor in their success.
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@Little_Kitten said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328196#Comment_3328196
What is important is not what a player can say, but what he can do.
Correct. And against a good Nurse, a player can do just about nothing. Glad we agree.
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@VikingDragonXii said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328132#Comment_3328132
So you'll listen to a streamer while other streamers have said the counters and had videos of them. Many of us have used said counters and survived and how are her counters titled in her favor? So she can't blink through large rocks or Trees forcing her to Blink to the left or right or Blink short in her favor....or that if you run across a hill ramp while she's Blinking she will follow the ground and stop dead unable to get past the incline......those are only a few of the counters to her.
How many tournaments have those other streamers won? Yes, those are just a few of the many "counters" that are still next to useless against a Nurse who knows what she's doing. If it was that easy, she wouldn't be the strongest Killer in the game. And you wouldn't have tournament-level players saying "Yeah, no, basically all you can do is die".
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@VikingDragonXii said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328079#Comment_3328079
She already has counter play but most Survivors don't want to learn how to deal with her. There are many ways to deal with her, many places where her Blink dosnt work as it normally does where you can lose her.
It takes just as long to learn how to deal with her as it does to learn how to play her.
Really? Because comp players would disagree. Hens said so in his latest video, against a Nurse who knows what she's doing, there's just about nothing you can do. All you can really do is die far away from any generators that are being worked on.
All of her "counterplay" is so heavily tilted in her favor that it barely helps against an experienced Nurse.
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@VikingDragonXii said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3327005#Comment_3327005
How is she running the game into the ground? Also as I said Mandy already said they won't rework her power and they shouldn't because look at how they trashed Freddy, he's a joke unless he runs fake pallets and even then once Survivors figure that out he's a joke again.
It seems to me players want Nurse to be like every other Killer and be looped or hold W meta. Also note it has been shown by multiple people that her Blink can't get her across the map any faster than a M1 Killer walking across.
Look at how they "trashed" Legion sometime. Or rather, how they made one of the dumbest Killers in the game actually fair to play against.
Oh, you mean Nurse would be a Killer with actual counterplay, that gives the Survivors actual agency in a chase? What a concept.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3326984#Comment_3326984
Sure. Again agreed. You can waste some little time when there is a lot of LOS blockers - making her guess more. Also nurse now lost her exposed perks (it takes her double time to down you) and range addons (map traversal and instahit after regular hit), so the situation and time-waste potential is much better now (you can maybe have a 20-25s chase against god nurse now - very different from regular 5-10s chases she had)
Long before she started using Starstruck, Nurse was still the undisputed strongest Killer in the game, and received all the exact same complaints that she does now. I don't know where people got this ludicrous idea that Starstruck was the problem. She's just a fundamentally broken character.
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@Little_Kitten said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3326773#Comment_3326773
I'm not trying to prove anything, because I don't need to.
You may not be able to get good results when you face the nurse, but not everybody does. There are plenty of survivors who have no trouble having fun when they face her.
The nurse is fine as she is now (she was already in 6.4...)
She no longer has any range addons.
She no longer has any recharge addons.
She can no longer One Shot.
Her "tp-back" addon has become useless.
She doesn't need more nerf.
Nurse was born during a time when the devs gave practically no consideration at all to balance when designing a new mechanic... and it shows.
Comp players like Hens will tell you, against a Nurse who knows what they're doing, there's nothing you can do but lead the Nurse to an inconvenient area of the map, and die. Macro play becomes the main deciding factor in Nurse matches.
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@VikingDragonXii said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3326652#Comment_3326652
Mandy already said they would never to a complete rework of her because the time it would take to come up with a new power, test it out, put it on the PTB, and then work it out more would be better used elsewhere
The longer Nurse has her current power, the more she runs the game into the ground. Delaying a rework on her is just kicking the can down the road.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3326923#Comment_3326923
Yes agreed (with misunderstanding each other).
I took survivor's POW as I didn't think nurse players have that much to complain about. But you are right. It's always both sides that complain :D
And I also agree that nurse will always be final boss and that's OK (so long as there actually still are things to do against her)
Against a Nurse who knows what they're doing, there's nothing you can do but die in a location that wastes as much of the Nurse's time as possible. This is something that comp players will verbalize.
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3311043#Comment_3311043
Clearly you DON'T know a good idea, because this idea is terrible.
And I don't screech at every Killer nerf, but have fun pretending you're a Killer main while pushing an idea Survivors would abuse to high hell.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3311115#Comment_3311115
Last I checked, ideas that allow Survivors to almost at-will turn off a Killer power for 15+ seconds are complete garbage.
Survivors would run to the hook, let themselves get hit, then unhook while Bubba is in the cooldown animation where he can't even swing his hammer.
It should not be this difficult for people to see. The idea is spiteful BS.
So now you're calling me a liar? Before I mained Knight, I mained Doctor, which is why I have this profile pic.
I've spent most of my recent time on this forum complaining about Dead Hard, explaining why Killers tunnel from a Killer's POV, asking for mechanics that reward the Killer for not tunneling, and asking for buffs to the Knight. But oh, I must have faked all those other posts I made.
If you're wondering why it's so hard for other people to see the problem with this change, maybe the problem is with you. Pinhead's box can be disabled for well over 15 seconds, and the risk to Survivors is almost nonexistent.
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@I_CAME said:
The thing is if you actually took the time to test this i'd be willing to bet money that the time lost from a sprint burst is probably the same as the time lost from a dead hard. Dead hard just feels worse because you attack and feel like you were cheated out of a down. If dead hard was removed people would just whine about sprint burst being OP once survivors learned how to use it effectively.
What you're not taking into account here is the distance the Killer loses because they were forced into attack cooldown, reducing their movespeed to a pitiful 14% for most of the animation. If you were to test it out, Dead Hard would beat out Sprint Burst by a pretty big margin.
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3310988#Comment_3310988
No, it's calling for a BS abuseable mechanic.
But entitled Survivors always acts like the game revolves around their perspective, and attack anyone who speaks up.
Fun fact, buddy: I don't play Bubba. I mostly derp around as Trapper. I'm just impartial enough to see a broken idea when I see it. But keep screaming for spiteful 'fixes' because you can't win.
And I've already explained why it's not BS or abuseable, as it requires Survivors to make some extremely poor plays to get mileage out of it, which have little chance of paying off.
Fun fact: I'm not a Survivor main. I main Knight. I'm just impartial enough to know a decent idea when I see it. But keep screeching with rage at the thought of Killers receiving even the slightest nerf.
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3310972#Comment_3310972
If you can't deal with a Killer camping and just do gens & leave, the problem is you.
I'm not the one demanding a BS, abuseable mechanic that Survivors can activate at-will.
This thread is calling for the removal of a BS, abusable mechanic that Killers can activate at-will. But you've evidently become so accustomed to facecamping on Bubba that you can't imagine the game without it.
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3310938#Comment_3310938
None of that is an excuse to turn Bubba into a M1 Killer for 15+ seconds just because the Survivor ran in range of a hooked Survivor while he was using his chainsaw.
The idea is bad. No amount of verbal or mental acrobatics will excuse an easily-abused mechanic meant to spite Bubba. Stop trying.
According to you, the guy who loses 3 gens every match before they can get a single down.
If you can't deal with not being able to instadown a Survivor after they make a stupid play, the problem is you.
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3310799#Comment_3310799
If 3 gens are consistently popping before the end of your first chase, you're just bad.Yeah, sure. It's always 'A Killer is just bad' and 'Git gud' for Killers, but 'Give us broken BS mechanics' for Survivors.
To "exploit" these nerfs, the Survivor must run the Killer next to their hooked teammate without rescuing them. Which is one of the worst things a Survivor can do.Except it would stop being 'the worst thing' because now the Survivor has forced the Cannibal into 'Screw your power for 15+ seconds' exploits and can tank a hit while unhooking their friend, who is ALSO safe because the chainsaw is powered off for 15+ seconds.
Artist can't use her power next to hooks, period. And yet she remains one of the strongest Killers in the game.Almost like you can't compare 2 different powers. Not that that stops Survivors from attempting the mental gymnastics to demand exploits like this BS.
Because power or no, only an idiot would purposely run the Killer next to the hook.That would change if this idea were implemented, at which point it would become a tactic to turn off the Cannibal's power by running around the hook.
NOTHING you said negates any of my points. The idea is terrible, abuseable, and spiteful. You have not actually addressed any of that. You have only said 'Well, nuh-uh!'.
Bubba can literally spam instadowns in front of the hook. There is NOTHING the survivors can do to rescue against a facecamping Bubba. It sounds to me like you've just gotten accustomed to turning off your brain and facecamping to death.
So, best-case scenario for the survivor, they tanked a hit and then unhooked, and then went down. That's called hook trading, and it's something that EVERY Killer has to deal with, and it's really not that bad for the Killer. It means they get another down in without having to commit to a full chase, or waste any time carrying the Survivor to the hook.
How exactly is Artist's power so fundamentally different from Bubba's that weakening/disabling it near the hook is fine for her, but not for Bubba? Her power causes the exact same problems at hooks; she can go through health states so quickly that it'd be almost impossible to rescue against a camping Artist.
Whether against a Bubba or a powerless M1 Killer, running them near the hook is one of the worst things you can do, and Artist stands as proof of this. You act like Bubba doesn't have an M1.
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3310647#Comment_3310647
Or maybe the Killer gets lucky and gets their first down early in a deadzone.Rofl. Sure. Almost never happens. Not an excuse for a broken idea like OP's.
Why do you seem to care so much about hook timers?Where did I mention hook timers?
- I pointed out that 3 gens pop in the first chase, which is true.
- I also mentioned OP's idea is easily abused. Which is true.
- I pointed out this idea exists to punish Killers over bruised egos instead of fixing the problem. Which is true.
- I also mentioned Survivors can punish camping by doing gens. Which is true.
So where did I mention hook timers? Call me old-fashioned, but I don't believe Killers should have their powers taken away for 15 freaking seconds because the Survivor led them to the hook and decided to grind on it like their name is 'Candi'.
I'll say it again; This idea is terrible in every way. It exists simply to slap Killers in the face because the writer was upset they could not get free unhooks, and now thinks 'Kneecap Killers with a mechanic I can invoke at will just by running to the hook' is a proper response.
Let me go point by point:
Nerf:The Cannibal can no longer put Survivors into the Dying State while within 8 meters of a hooked Survivor. This effect also lingers for 15 seconds if The Cannibal is within 16 meters of the hooked Survivor.
Brokenly OP and easily abused; Run at the hook while the Cannibal is in a Chainsaw Sprint. Now the Survivor has FIFTEEN SECONDS of insta-down immunity.
Nerf:The Cannibal will now instantly cancel his chainsaw sweep upon hitting a Survivor within 8 meters of a hooked Survivor. This will also consume all of his chainsaw sweep tokens.
Brokenly OP. The Killer's entire kit is put on cooldown and he's forced out of it because his target dry-humped a hooked Survivor.
Nerf:The Cannibal now recharges all chainsaw tokens 50% slower than before if he hits a Survivor within 8 meters of a hooked Survivor.
Once again; brokenly OP. His kit now recharges slower simply because his target ran AT a hooked Survivor.
Every part of that idea is easily abused by licking hooked Survivors while the Cannibal is mid-sprint. It's nothing but rage and spite to 'punish' a Killer instead of thinking about ANY balance in the slightest.
Horrible idea in every way, shape, and form.
Unless your name is Bubba and you have an on-demand instadown. Hello?
If 3 gens are consistently popping before the end of your first chase, you're just bad. Even assuming all of the survivors are repairing 100% optimally (Which they often aren't), getting ran for 90 seconds in your first chase every time is the mark of someone who doesn't know how to chase.
To "exploit" these nerfs, the Survivor must run the Killer next to their hooked teammate without rescuing them. Which is one of the worst things a Survivor can do. The Killer essentially gets the benefits of camping without the downsides; they get to farm hits on the Survivor they're chasing while still denying the unhook.
Artist can't use her power next to hooks, period. And yet she remains one of the strongest Killers in the game. Because power or no, only an idiot would purposely run the Killer next to the hook.
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3310137#Comment_3310137
Are you aware that your 'maybe' does not take into account skillchecks and perks?
Survivors run gen-speed perks in this meta. Killers have almost NOTHING that speeds up hook states. So turn your 'maybe' into 'Survivors will, 99% of the time, do 4-5 gens if the Killer camps once.'
And you can't tell me I'm wrong; 3 gens usually pop in the first chase. If the Survivors can't do 2 more during the 2 minute camp, then that's their problem.
Once again, this idea is an easily abused joke meant to spitefully punish Killers and soothe bruised egos while giving Survivors a mechanic they can invoke at will, instead of actually fix the issue in a balanced, well-thought-out way.
Or maybe the Killer gets lucky and gets their first down early in a deadzone.
Why do you seem to care so much about hook timers? They barely come into play unless you're facecamping at the first hook, i.e. performing the most brainless Killer strategy possible. Call me old-fashioned, but I don't think the Killer deserves to be rewarded for standing in one place and staring at the hooked Survivor all match.
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@HeyItsQuiet said:
Then remove NOED.
Sounds good to me. Both reward bad play.