Marcus
Marcus
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Clown sucked before reworked Freddy came into the picture. He was meta only a brief period after his release ( like pretty much every killer ), but then people understood how bad he is and left him in dust. Freddy rework officially killed Clown, as now your only reason to play Clown over Freddy ( or any other killer ) is if you want a challenge. Even devs finally acknowledged that Clown is in a deplorable state and they're gonna buff him.
From what I saw, people don't really want Freddy's snares to be outright removed, but want the failing asleep mechanic to be tweaked, so Freddy either has a harder time to put survivors to sleep, either survivors have an easier time to wake up.
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Nurse because she's bugged to hell.
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I don't hate Spirit. I also know other people who don't hate her as well.
Sounds and Stridor are [BAD WORD] with bugs anyway from a long time already. I don't think Stridor is worth it on her anymore, there are much better perks to run.
Nobody with half a brain is failling for the standing still mind game.
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@CLAUDETTEINABUSH said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1290926#Comment_1290926
Because it's different. Relying on audio isn't as easy and brainless as it sounds, you should know if you play spirit. I've played her much as my fav killer to both play and face and I can safely say that there are some obvious counters (btw I don't run iron will, I believe that even if everyone thinks it's her only counter, it's simply not). Jukes are jukes, with headphones or without headphones. Doubling back, revaulting the same window to get distance (the best mindgame imo), walking away, pretending to go to a pallet but instead walk away from it ect.
What you suggest is: let's make spirit f tier. She's so unbalanced that she should be thrown to the garbage can.
I'll remind you something btw, remember when survivors said that when they'll remove collision from spirit then they'll be ok with her? I do. Did they keep their word? Well.....
I didn't see many survivors being vocal about Spirit after her nerf, most of them now complain about Iri Head Huntress, Freddy and Billy from what I have seen.
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@Respectfulnancymain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1287272#Comment_1287272
So your saying forever freddy is fair and balanced against solos?
The add-ons were nerfed into the ground, I think I can count on the fingers of one hand the times I saw this build being used after that.
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@AsePlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1262120#Comment_1262120
Gonna have to bookmark this for anyone else that complains about DS not being anti-tunnel. SquadW
It works the other way around too. If someone suggest a DS nerf, people can't defend it as "just an anti-tunnel perk" anymore.
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I think the timer is fine, DS should just disable when you enter a locker and get healed to full health.
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@CLAUDETTEINABUSH said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1259943#Comment_1259943
Have you ever played on red ranks? I'm on eu servers and I can tell you, they are rare but they demolish. Good luck trying to predict them, they are in your head, it's actually scary. A god nurse has 2 counters, corn maps and indoor maps. Corn blindness is a huge problem and they break line of sight really often on indoor maps to. They do exist, they are the rare demonic creatures that make nurse s tier. If you find one, dcing is the quickest way to end the game, which trust me, won't last long.
EU, red ranks, never saw or heard about these God Nurses post nerf. For me, Nurse is pretty rare as a whole, most Nurse mains I know quit on her and I think I have better chances to find an unicorn than a "God" Nurse that apparently is still getting praised on forums.
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@CLAUDETTEINABUSH said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1259290#Comment_1259290
Freddy is an easy killer, that's why he is so lethal in the average games. Nurse is the best killer, if you disagree well, a god nurse can end the game with 5 gens done against a pro swf.
People keep talking about these "God" Nurses who eat SWF teams at breakfast, but I keep seeing only Nurses who either get destroyed or struggle to win with 1 gen left against solo survivors.
And I disagree on that statement. A God SWF would be able to destroy a God Nurse most of the time, unless that Nurse is running a Mori.
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@MegMain98 said:
Nurse -> Spirit -> Oni (against competent teams)
Hag, Billy, and Freddy come close to that #3 spot.
Hag has too many weaknesses. She’s still great but flashlights and OoO will crush her hard.
Freddy is strong but a BIT overrated. He’s very obnoxious and boring to face but he is still a basic M1 killer.
Billy is a more consistent version of Oni but Oni is just so much more capable of downing against good survivors when his power is up due to how easy it is to control and flick around corners.
Against competent teams, Oni loses 3 gens before he gets his power and is unlikely he's gonna get more than 1 down with his power against good spread out teams. Not to mention, his power isn't even reliable at all loops without a green add-on.
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The killers you listed are possibly still the top 3, but you're wrong about Nurse's rework being a succes, IMO all her add-ons besides blink cooldown and range are still useless and her base kit is awful to play because of the cooldown and Dedicated Servers. They pretty much killed Nurse for any average player.
Tho I guess people could make a case for Freddy. Unlike Nurse, you don't need to sweat your ass off with him in order to get similar results. Tho he's still a M1 killer after all, so he might not be that good as well.
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@BigBrainMegMain said:
It'll probably get Minimum Throw Requirements like Deathslingers Iri.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1253989#Comment_1253989
DS already got nerfed, please don't derail the topic.
I mean, Moris and Iri Head already got nerfed as well, so I don't see your point.
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Huntress still needs an add-on update, so Iri Head should be nerfed when that eventually happens.
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Pretty much.
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Deathslinger is like the wallmart version of Huntress.
But as long as you have fun with him, it's worth playing him.
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Worst killer perk : kinda a tie between Monstrous Shrine, Furtive Chase, Mindbreaker, Cruel Limits and Zanshin Tactics.
Worst survivor perk : again, a tie between Slippery Meat, Premonition, Up the Ante, Babysitter and Camaraderie.
The best killer perk : depends on the killer. Pop, Infectious Fright and BBQ are usually the contenders here.
The best survivor perk : Decisive Strike.
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I mean, this nerf wouldn't do anything for people who play both sides, as DS skill checks are easy to hit.
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@ClickyClicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1021682#Comment_1021682
When did I say Freddy was OP? Or needed a nerf? All I said about Freddy was that one specific build isn’t fun to play against.
Many people say Billy is OP.
From what I see, almost nobody says that Billy is OP.
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Myers as the second best killer ? Ughhh ?
Why is suddenly everyone overrating Legion so much ?
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We already have Myers and Spirit, what would you want more than that ?
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@PigMainClaudette said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1232931#Comment_1232931
Well, when I say playstyle, I mean a general spreading of damage and all that. As in I never tunnel, rarely slug and NEVER camp. The only time I'm near a hook is in a chase or kicking a generator.
I have never had a single second chance perk swing a game for me. When someone is picked up off the ground, I'm normally either in a chase or damaging generators so go ahead and use Unbreakable. DS? Been hit twice in recent memory, one was a test to see if they had it and the other was a blatant abuse. Everyone still died. Borrowed Time? Never affects me, as I'm normally too far away or I target the unhooker. From where I'm standing, I didn't lie because I never have a problem with these perks.
As for the killer deciding who dies, I mean by counting hooks and spreading damage, not having a permanent Ebony Mori. IF you can remember who's had how many hooks or who is annoying you the most, then you CAN decide their fate. Once again, I'm not lying, you've just misinterpreted my slightly vague point. I did also say ESSENTIALLY as in not 100% of the time. I understand that there are games when survivors dictate the flow of the game, but I find them to be the exception.
As for killer notifications, you get some warning or can deduce if they have it quite easily. If you have an obsession perk, you're probably respecting the possibility of DS anyway, but if you're not, then it's pretty obvious. Especially with how some survivors play. Same with Borrowed Time, as in unless you're actively camping with a TR then reckless saves are a good indication.
And you're right. Survivors are notified AFTER the hit, and that is my single biggest complaint. There is no build-up, warning or effort. Just a single hit and a confused and now angry survivor who's been shoved to the dirt. Normally the one who did bones as well, the thing that killers tell survivors to do. So, here's the thing. I did what I was meant to to avoid all stupid second-chance perks, I know how to beat them and I actively try to.
From where I'm standing, I'm right. I don't lie here because that doesn't help anyone. You may have different observations to me, but that doesn't make me a liar.
Just because these perks weren't personally as effective against you, doesn't mean that they can't swing the outcome of a match. If they couldn't, then nobody would complain about them.
And I personally don't complain about them. I only want DS skill check to not trigger if a survivor is grabbed from a locker, so it's less abusable. BT could use some tweaks so it becomes better for both sides, but I'm fine with it either way.
Survivors dictating the flow of the match isn't that uncommon to me. Most of them die due to their own mistakes.
And you can see when a killer has NOED before hitting you, because they are noticeable faster. I honestly don't care if you make the exposed effect from NOED be seen immediately the end game starts, but I still believe a totem counter would be a better solution. Not only you could prevent it better in solo, but if there's 1 totem left in end game, you can always expect NOED and if you see the killer is faster than usual, you can be sure he has NOED.
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60-70% of them are very underwhelming or straight up useless.
Very few UR's are truly worthy of their rarities.
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@PigMainClaudette said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1231622#Comment_1231622
You can naturally counter the survivor meta perks by a shift in playstyle. That and individually they don't swing the outcome of a game.
As a killer, you essentially decide who dies when. Survivor second chance perks are designed to prevent the use of the scummy tactics of tunnelling, camping and slugging for bleedout.
NoED CAN be called an anti-genrush perk (not that I ever have a genrush team.....) but it also has major glaring inconsistencies compared to every other Exposed perk: There is no activation requirement (endgame starting is not a requirement, I'll explain in a bit) and there is ZERO NOTICE for the most powerful status in the game.
Currently there are two perks that hide Exposed. NoED and Devour Hope. One of which has an activation requirement, that being get hooks. Every other Exposed effect warns the survivor instantly.
While it can be argued that a perk like Rancor can also have zero requirement, you still have a more passive effect and the Exposed effect comes from generators complete, rather than endgame reached. You then only have ONE Exposed survivor who knows they're your target. With NoED, you can dominate, close the hatch and instant down the last survivor. And this is a BASIC perk, not a teachable.
For the survivor "meta" you need teachables from at least 2 survivors, possibly 3. Depending on if you want to use it on one of them. Without getting them in the Shrine, that's a HUGE investment, especially since killer gets 2-3x the bloodpoints that a survivor does. NoED is just a basic perk that always exists in a killer's bloodweb. You can use it day one.
And I use Rancor on some killers. It's not that bad actually.
Survivors can counter NOED and pretty much all killers perks by a shift in playstyle. So this argument doesn't stand up.
And "individually they don't swing the outcome of a game" is a blatantly lie. I can literally send you matches were a single Unbreakable turned a game from a 4k to a 0 or 1k. A single Unbreakable ! Not to mention, a single DS means that the killer is forced to "respect" everyone in order to not risk getting hit by it, a single DH can turn a 30 seconds chase into a 2 minute chase and so on.
And "the killer decide who dies when" is, again, a lie. Killers don't have a button to kill a specific survivor whenever they feel like it. Against good survivors with a M1 killer, you're very often forced to abandon the chase and go for the weaker survivors, otherwise you're throwing away the match.
At least survivors get a notification for NOED after someone gets hit, while killers don't get notifications for who specifically has DS, BT, Unbreakable, Adrenaline untill they are used, the same way with NOED.
All your points are very flawed and misleading.
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@PigMainClaudette said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1231114#Comment_1231114
Killers on general. Both sides are guilty of this.
As someone who plays both sides, and naturally counters the issues, then I feel qualified to give my opinion on the subject matter and survivors have a better claim than killers on the matter of "second chance perks".
Why ? Killers claim on the second chance perks is as valuable as the survivors one, especially when survivors have more of them. Killers only have NOED and maybe Rancor ( tho nobody uses that ). The double standard is just as present on the survivors side as it is on the killers side, if not even more, as I see on a daily basis people complaining about NOED, while calling survivors meta perks completely fair.
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1 So you didn't even watch Otz's conclusion on the experiment where from what I heard he might've changed his mind about how powerful NOED really is ?
2 It's one thing to say you think Billy needs a nerf, but to literally say "I hope Billy gets nerfed into ground, pls devs do it" shows you don't care about this killer being balanced and you only want him nerfed so much untill nobody ever plays him again. And then you say that you want both sides to have fun ... And I don't know how many people agree that Billy needs a nerf, as many people disagreed with you in the post you said he does.
3 This still doesn't change the fact that Otz still thinks DS is too strong ( potentially even stronger than old DS ) and should be nerfed. But of course, you ignored all his videos where he said how unfair survivor meta perks can be and only brought up his stream about how unfair NOED can be.
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@gantes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228614#Comment_1228614
Sorry, but I still think your comment was unnecessary. That doesn't prove that OP is biased at all. He saw footage of Otz playing in a certain way and wants to discuss it here. The fact that Otz complained about DS in a separate ocasion is completely irrelevant to this specific discussion, and chances are OP wasn't even aware of it. Hell, I didn't even know Otz said anything like that, even though I share some of the same opinions on DS.
This is just not the way to foster a healthy discussion. Fostering the "us vs them" mentality here does nothing but harm to the community.
I didn't watch Otz's stream, but I saw comments on this thread saying that at the end of it, Otz said that all the second chances, including survivors ones, should be removed. Of course, the OP completely ignored this and started to talk only about things who are unfun for the survivors, but not for the killer.
Last but not least, I know very well this user to know how biased (s)he is. In other threads, (s)he literally said things like "I hope devs nerf Billy into the ground, pls devs do it" and "DS isn't a good anti-tunnel perk because it's a skill check which survivors can miss".
So I think I rest my case.
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@gantes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1228377#Comment_1228377
I have to ask, if you're not going to add anything of value to the discussion and just attack an argument that isn't even here because you have no viable answer to the matter at hand, why even comment?
Go create your own thread on Otz talking about DS then.
I was just pointing out OP's extremely biased opinion, nothing more.
I already said in other NOED related threads that a totem counter would make NOED more fair against solo survivors. From what I have seen, you seem to share the same opinion.
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Otz also said in multiple of his videos that DS isn't an anti-tunelling perk, but a minute invincibility perk for survivors. In one of his streams he even said that the new DS is stronger and used more often than the old DS. But of course you're only gonna share Otz's opinion on NOED, because his opinion on DS wouldn't fit at all with your extremely biased post. Because God forbid to break people's bubbles about "DS being a perfectly balanced perk, just don't tunnel noob".
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@MegMain98 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1225477#Comment_1225477
According to Otz’s killer add-on tier list video. Spirit gains 70% movement speed with MDR which would make her 246% which would be faster than Billy. I don’t actually know the exact calculations on the percentages myself since I don’t use MDR.
Regardless if she can move faster than Billy or not, she still moves at sonic speed and can have insane map pressure. It’s still damn close to Billy’s speed.
I responded on that video saying that his values for Spirit's add-ons might be true.
Int3r4ct made a video about Spirit's add-ons and gave other values for them.
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@MegMain98 said:
Spirit is more consistent against good survivors because they can’t deny her power like they can Billy’s chainsaw. You can easily force Billy to M1 but you can’t deny Spirit her power.
Against average random solos Billy is going to end the match sooner with less effort.
Trying to loop a Spirit is much harder than Billy (if she’s good) because you don’t see her position and you’re taking a guess on where she is.
Also, Spirit is faster than Billy while phasing if she has the add-on Mother Daughter Ring which means she can have just a much map pressure with certain add-ons.
Playing against Billy is just like most other M1 killers. He’s weak to pallet loops while Spirit is not.
If I was against the best Spirit/Billy player I would take my chances with Billy. Billy has more counterplay than Spirit.
Spirit isn't faster with MD Ring tho. A Spirit with that red add-on moves at 216% speed, while an add-onless Billy moves at 230% speed.
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I don't know, I think new Ruin is pretty bad outside of a few builds ( like Prayer Beads Spirit or Class Photo Freddy with Surveillance and an offering for an indoor map ).
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1223464#Comment_1223464
Just because she is annoying or unfun to play or that there are bugs in the game wont make her a weaker killer.
Also it is not true that Wraith is neccessary better in indoor maps. It depends on how good the Nurse is, still. The point of a Tier list like this is that we assume the person who plays the killer is extremly good (or even perfect) with him/her.
Bugs are definitely making her weaker, especially when they aren't fixed for months.
I already said I assume players skill in my tier list. But I also assume other factors as well. I truly believe there isn't a certain "by far the best killer in the game" anymore.
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Well, I would say there isn't a certain "best killer" anymore because despite some people still swearing to God that Nurse is still by far the best, the truth is, she's so annoying to play and Dedicated Servers messed her up so bad with tons of bugs, that if you get a map like Hawkins, you're honestly better playing Wraith over her.
Nurse, Spirit, Billy and Freddy are for the most part considered to be top 4 and which one of them is the best honestly depends on the map, RNG, your skill and build, survivors skill and builds, etc.
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8/10 for the originality of your bait.
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@designator said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1215634#Comment_1215634
Not everyone wants to or had the option to play in SWF. Promoting a meta where the only way to win against sweaty killers is to be in a survivor team six is going to kill this game.
I can say the same about killers. Not everyone wants to play sweaty as killer with Ebony Mori, strong add-ons and by slugging everyone.
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"Survivors should have the option to play sweaty like killers"
But they have, it's called SWF.
God loops were bad for the game and they needed to be nerfed. I agree some killer stuff like Moris should be nerfed too, but that doesn't mean God loops should stay as they are.
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Only the people who still fail against her standing still mind game claim she's skilless. She might not be as hard to learn as Huntress, Nurse or even a curving Billy, but she's not braindead either.
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@Seanzu said:
Spirit is a brainless killer, stick on stridor and there isn't a single thing survivors can do.
Stridor is a trash perk, especially now with the sounds bugs. You're better sticking to something else.
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Will there be other maps that will get a complete rework like Badham and Lery's or from now on you will only tweak multiple maps in one update, like what happened in this mid chapter patch ?
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I feel like these forums get more toxic as days go by.
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@AsePlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1205252#Comment_1205252
Was thinking the same thing. Should probably just go the other way.
@Hoodied said:
I haven't played the PTB, but you can easily prevent this by going the other way (I think I don't know)
but this is a great issue that the chase ends at this loop now
Marth tested the both ways, but you lose the chase in both cases and thus it becomes an infinite. The only time it didn't become an infinite was when vaulting the window into inside.
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They could add a counter for totems, so that could stop the complaints most people have with NOED, aka "I cleansed 4 totems, but my teammates didn't cleanse the last one and I didn't know, so I still got hit by it".
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@FearedbytheGods said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1203929#Comment_1203929
Well you haven't been playing since release if that's your take.😑
If you go take a look at the patch notes, you will see that I'm right.
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We got 1 killer sided patch, wooo, the horror !
But we're really ignoring that probably the next 1-2 patches will be survivor sided, because devs always go back and forth to buff and nerf both sides ?
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The bias levels from this thread are astounding. Guys, both killers and survivors received multiple buffs and nerfs over time. Stop acting like your side is always getting the end sort of the stick.
Fixing bad map design is a very healthy change for the game and it was needed for a long time. Stop acting like is the end of the world because some BS windows got doorways next to them.
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Cleansing a totem is 14 seconds and healing in a locker is 8 seconds, so in total 22 seconds.
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@Speshul_Kitten said:
The only thing I think that was over the top was making the Wake Up Alarm spawn as far as possible when asleep. It should be RNG like Pig’s Reverse Bear Traps.
I actually saw a Alarm Clock spawn literally next to survivor after he fall asleep. So I guess they might be bugged.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1202069#Comment_1202069
I won't disagree that every killer is strong with the right build, but at base OBJECTIVELY Freddy is definitely stronger than Billy. He has more tools and more potential to be stronger. It's not that I'm saying Billy is weak, I'm saying Freddy is just stronger than Billy. You can easily see this if you play them naked with no perks/add-ons. Freddy will still crush most good survivors where Billy will struggle with better survivors. Freddy just has way more potential in his kit and takes far less effort to get to that maximum potential than Billy. To be super oppressive as a naked Billy, you have to be a good Billy. To be super oppressive as a naked Freddy, you only have to be a decent Freddy.
Also Billy's slow down add-ons don't even compare to Freddy's. Begrimed Chains slows down survivors by 9% for 120 seconds, and requires you to find and hit the survivor with a chainsaw. Considering that upon doing this you will get a hook, practically you are only getting that debuff for 60-90s at best. Freddy has several add-ons that apply a debuff and require 0 input on his part. The survivor just falls asleep naturally, or by being hit. And it's indefinite until the survivor wakes up (which itself is a game slowing mechanic). With Jump Rope and Swing Chains Freddy gets up to a 12% debuff AND up to an 8% debuff on awake survivors. He doesn't need to do anything to get those debuffs, but if he does find and hit you he just applies the debuff sooner rather than later. Billy's add-ons cannot compete with that kind of passive slow down. Freddy also has Paint Brush which can start survivors asleep and keep them asleep longer, making the debuff semi-permanent for the entirety of the game.
Billy is just not as strong as Freddy. You really can't argue this.
"Billy isn't as strong as Freddy, you can't argue this."
Of course you can, Billy has better add-ons, mobility outside of indoor maps, snowball, hook defense, slug potential, perk synergy and with chainsaw speed add-ons on an experienced player even better anti loop.
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Yeah, these map changes might make her great again.
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@tactic said:
Yes, every map will have only 5 pallets despite the fact that only a few maps had pallets changed and 5 is below the minimum...
According to Peanits, only Asylum from Disturbed Ward should have less pallets than before.
@caz_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1202617#Comment_1202617
well i played yesterday in one of the autoheavens map and i found 5 pallets and every single one was a unsafe aka bloodlust pallet.
i also found 1 jungle gym, 1 tl wall and the killer shack. so its 7 pallets. and yes looping will be not a thing anymore.
You either got a very unlucky variation or a bugged one.