since threads keep popping up on noed...
Give survivors a totem counter and make noed base kit for all killers...
Give survivors a totem counter and make noed base kit for all killers...
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Do bones.
Well then they could reduce it 2 one totem unless they have a totem perk then they add more and the noed totem would be much larger but take loger 2 cleans but in my oppinion that would still be a little op
Lol. Noed base kit. Hell no.
Nope and nope.
survivors want another objective 😂😂😂...bones is now another objective and killers get to run 4 perks with noed as base kit 💪💪💪
Survivors don't need a total counter. Survivors already get alot of information already. I would be interested in seeing what dbd would be like with no hex notifications. I mean you would know if they have ruin when you let off a gen and it starts regressing. Sadly I think this would be way to op though.
Don't need is and NEVER.
I do bones, everyone else can start pulling their weight or killers can just use actual perks and stop holding up the double standard of complaining about DS/BT/Unbreakable/DH/Adrenaline while spouting that NoED is fine.
I do bones too and if i get hit with noed, i hate my solo teamates...but i cannot force them to do bones. i am 100% fine with that. why do other players want dbd to resemble cod tdm when this game is 4 vs 1....
What 🐷 said.
i don't complain about suvivor perks so why not perk balance around my non feely perspective👀
dO
bONEz
Killers on general. Both sides are guilty of this.
As someone who plays both sides, and naturally counters the issues, then I feel qualified to give my opinion on the subject matter and survivors have a better claim than killers on the matter of "second chance perks".
there are already counters,bring detective's hunch of small game and stop complaining
Yeah, uh, it isn't an issue of counters being unavailable it's that some of us do what is require, others don't and those that do suffer for it.
Maybe stop using baby's first crutch perk and the complaints will end.
I do bones too. Recently are started playing Nancy, and she needs to cleanse a totem in order to use Inner Strength. That lead me to grabbing Small Game when it came up, to find totems easier. Then that got me to wondering what it would be like if more perks required cleansing totems. It might get people to start doing totems naturally. If every one did totems it would not be that big of a deal. It only seems insurmountable when no one else is doing them. I am doing 2 to 3 every match, now.
its just hilarious seeing a survivor talking about crutch perks when 95% of every survivor full slots himself with crutch perks =) yeah how dare killers actually bring good perks you gotta respect the survivor rules first,so rude!
I play both. I'm neutral. It's why I have my killer and survivor main characters in my name.
And I have ONE "crutch" perk out of 12 in the 3 builds I run lately. And that is DS literally to punish tunnellers, so don't come at me with the whole "Second chance survivor meta!" winge.
Killers can bring whatever they want and play however they want, but just expect survivors to not be happy about it and voice their opinions.
I think that NoED is badly designed, caters towards bad play on BOTH sides and needs to be looked at. I've also stated a fair and balanced fix that will keep it's strength but remove the most annoying part about playing against it.
Personally, I don't use the perk because I can suck it up when I lose a match and move on. I also hate one use only perks/items.
I play killer/surviror with no expectations....
Hi, I am one of those who firmly believe noed is a crutch perk from my own experience of it becoming a crutch perk, how can I help today?
I avoid using crutch perks as much as I can, because I don't want to be reliant on them. I still complain about noed, not because it's strong, but because the weaker solo teams are often the ones affected and the stronger swf teams usually aren't.
"Oh just do bones" I do. My usual build consists of Inner Strength and Detective's Hunch. I run a map. I'm responsible for all 5 totems more often than not. Without me on the team that killer would have noed and what little chance my team had would've died.
Totem counters are an important thing to have available to all solo survivors. Why? Because it brings them closer to swf level. Know what happens when solo and swf are closer? The devs can buff killers without making solo survivor the worst gaming experience known to man.
"How dare killers use good perks" Using good perks and becoming reliant on perks are two different things. I've met killers who get two downs during the main game, I'm hunting for totems as my team do gens. I do 4 and then the most obscure totem is the one left standing, that's the one with noed, bam Pop killer slugs with noed and ######### hits the fan. I've found myself becoming reliant more recently on Pop Goes the Weasel like I was on old ruin and noed, so I've tried swapping out alternatives, even giving new ruin a shot.
Killers can use strong perks like survivors can use strong perks. Just don't complain about the survivor's strong perks when you use yours. If you don't use either then feel free to complain.
There is perks available already against totems. It’s just that, survivors have no spare slots for them because bringing in all the possible braindead second chance meta pers is more inportant than mixing up the loadout with something else..,Survivors won’t use no NOeD counters or any orher perk as long as meta perks aren’t recived the Ruin treatment. Starting with nerfing DS would be a great leap forward.
Ruin was nerfed because of its high usage rate. Over 80% of all matches.
The only survivor perk that comes close to that usage rate is self care.
Also ds has been nerfed many times before. I'll very gladly take the one we have now where you literally slug them and chase the unhooker (stbfl is a good perk try it) instead of the 5 second stun on pickup where juggling was the only counter, doesn't matter about obsession, can be used by all 4 survivors at any point in the match. That had no viable counterplay. This one does.
DS, BT, Unbreakable, and either adrenaline or iron will. The combination of these is what survivors use 99% of the time. Self care is trash. Nobody who plays to win runs it anymore. There is medkits after all. If pick rate alone is enough to make something nerfed, than nerfing all of these is more than justified. About DS. It’s stronger than ever before by being up even if you’re NOT runneling and really easily exploitable. But every reasonably player who plays killer knows that well. It needs to go away if someone else is hooked and you’re not on the ground. That way, it could’t be used for more than fulfilling it’s purpose.
Oh yeah I missed dead hard but screw that. I guess the press E to outplay perk can’t be changed after all.
Okay so let's break this down bit by bit.
"DS, BT, Unbreakable, and either adrenaline or iron will. The combination of these is what survivors use 99% of the time. Self care is trash. Nobody who plays to win runs it anymore. There is medkits after all."
Here's where you're wrong.
According to Peanits, an official dbd developer, self care is used comparable to old ruin, that is in ~70-80% of games if I remember correctly. So people definitely still use self care, and win with it.
According to Peanits in that same comment, perks like DS, BT, Unbreakabill, Adrenaline, and Iron Will are not used anywhere near as much- with DS being the highest of those perks at ~40% usage rate.
"If pick rate alone is enough to make something nerfed, than nerfing all of these is more than justified."
Incorrect. Ruin was nerfed because of its high pick rate (again, 80%) and its passive benefit to the killer from the beginning of the trial. Even if it was based on pick rate though, the perks listed above are not justified in being nerfed from it, since their pick rate is half or less than ruin and self care.
"About DS. It’s stronger than ever before by being up even if you’re NOT runneling and really easily exploitable."
According to the Official Dead By Daylight Wiki, Version 1.2.1 of the game held a version of decisive strike which worked:
-While on the shoulder
-Would stun for 5 seconds
-Was up indefinitely.
This perk could be used by all survivors when they were on the shoulder of the killer, regardless of if they were the obsession or not. Later in Version 1.3.0 this was nerfed to 4 seconds, and later the "If you are not the obsession" category was imemented.
If you're trying to tell me decisive strike wasn't stronger in the first two iterations than it is now, I don't know what to tell you. Yes, it's easily exploitable and needs more changes but as of right now it's in a decent spot, is less abusabke than the first two iterations of the perk, is weaker than the third iteration of the perk (Version 1.4.0). Only in Version 2.6.0 did it become weaker than it currently is.
Feel free to fact check on the wiki btw.
"But every reasonably player who plays killer knows that well. It needs to go away if someone else is hooked and you’re not on the ground. That way, it could’t be used for more than fulfilling it’s purpose."
I agree, it needs tweaking and this seems to be a reasonable way of changing it. I personally would also like a "If you were the most recent survivor hooked" instead of "when another survivor is hooked" because then it ensures only one ds can be active at any one time.
But this isn't what the topic is about. It's about giving solo survivors, arguably the weakest role in the game, a totem counter to assist them in reaching the level of strength of a swf on comms. This is something I wholeheartedly agree with.
How are there like 8 of these posts a day. 😂 NOED is fine as-is.
The version of DS you’re talking about is older than the dinosaurs. It’s from an era where developers were constatnly high enough and tought that, insta heals are a good idea. But having an unbearably strong version of a perk in the far past doesn’t make it’s current, still overpowered verision any less of a problem. Especially because the game is more balanced since than there is less room for things like that. And about statistics I beleve that’s official, but it’s still an incorrect information why? Neither survivors or killers start with having all the perks from the start. But once they get DS and the rest of the lame #########, they gonna use them and nothing else. Look at survivor loadouts in the end of the game. It’s the same thing again and again. Collecting global statistics that includes all platforsms, ranks, players at once doesn’t give you any reliable data, therefore numbers alone are worthless.
After all they only measure the over all use rate of these perks/match and not their pickrate among people who ACTUALLY OWNS THEM.
You would probably get a stunning result if you could see the value of that, and again, it would be more than enough to justify a nerf. Not to mention these perks are braindead and poorly designed from a gameplay perspective which is an other good reason.
Okay once again let's break this down.
"The version of DS you’re talking about is older than the dinosaurs. It’s from an era where developers were constatnly high enough and tought that, insta heals are a good idea. But having an unbearably strong version of a perk in the far past doesn’t make it’s current, still overpowered verision any less of a problem."
This is true that DS is still problematic, but let's go back to your original wording. 'It’s stronger than ever before by being up even if you’re NOT runneling.' Hence I proved you wrong; it's actually in one of it's weakest states ever since release. The devs have improved a lot since then.
"And about statistics I beleve that’s official, but it’s still an incorrect information why?"
What does this even mean? I assume this means the official statistics aren't relevant, in which case- what?
"Neither survivors or killers start with having all the perks from the start. But once they get DS and the rest of the lame [BAD WORD], they gonna use them and nothing else."
You know that Hex:ruin, used in 80% of all matches, was also not available from the start? Yet it was still used in ######### EIGHTY PERCENT of all matches?
But again, @Kakateve, can we focus on the main point of the topic. Giving solo survivors a totem counter to help counter NOED, the perk that greatly shows the power disparity between solo survivor and swf. This topic isn't about nerfing DS- there are enough topics about that every day- so please can we return to it?
I wish to politely disagree that NOED is fine. Not because it's too strong, but because it's a badly designed perk that ensures solo survivors have an even worse time while swf can coast through easily.
Okay once again let's break this down.
"The version of DS you’re talking about is older than the dinosaurs. It’s from an era where developers were constatnly high enough and tought that, insta heals are a good idea. But having an unbearably strong version of a perk in the far past doesn’t make it’s current, still overpowered verision any less of a problem."
This is true that DS is still problematic, but let's go back to your original wording. 'It’s stronger than ever before by being up even if you’re NOT runneling.' Hence I proved you wrong; it's actually in one of it's weakest states ever since release. The devs have improved a lot since then.
"And about statistics I beleve that’s official, but it’s still an incorrect information why?"
What does this even mean? I assume this means the official statistics aren't relevant, in which case- what?
"Neither survivors or killers start with having all the perks from the start. But once they get DS and the rest of the lame [BAD WORD], they gonna use them and nothing else."
You know that Hex:ruin, used in 80% of all matches, was also not available from the start? Yet it was still used in ######### EIGHTY PERCENT of all matches?
But again, @Kakateve, can we focus on the main point of the topic. Giving solo survivors a totem counter to help counter NOED, the perk that greatly shows the power disparity between solo survivor and swf. This topic isn't about nerfing DS- there are enough topics about that every day- so please can we return to it?
EDIT: Just realised this posted twice for some reason, no clue why. On mobile rn do it doesn't even let me delete quotes once they're there- devs get on this.
Why ? Killers claim on the second chance perks is as valuable as the survivors one, especially when survivors have more of them. Killers only have NOED and maybe Rancor ( tho nobody uses that ). The double standard is just as present on the survivors side as it is on the killers side, if not even more, as I see on a daily basis people complaining about NOED, while calling survivors meta perks completely fair.
“After all statistics can only measure the over all use rate of these perks/match and not their pickrate among people who ACTUALLY OWNS THEM.”
I love how you ignored the point that perfectly explained your confusion about me saying numbers alone doesn’t worth crap.
Ruin was used 80% of the time? Okay well that’s pretty much not true, it’s more like the rounding of the actuall number which is only this high because they actually measured the red ranks only I beleve.
Or you say 80% of new players instantly bought Hag just to have ruin by deffault? Jezz give me a break. I’ve faced lots of killers and it was rare to run into a ruin user before rank 8 or so. But they definitally looking the global stats among all ranks for the survivor pers you listed. Self care being that pupular is an evidence by itself.
What you said about DS, yes it was stronger in the middle ages you happy? The point was it is stronger now than before the “nerf” which is a fact.
And yes giving solo survivors more perks to work with against things like NoED would be a great thing. But my arguement was they wouldn’t use them anyway because the current meta perks they use alongside with SFW groups are far more engaging.
pretty much is now , with the amount of times I see it
You can naturally counter the survivor meta perks by a shift in playstyle. That and individually they don't swing the outcome of a game.
As a killer, you essentially decide who dies when. Survivor second chance perks are designed to prevent the use of the scummy tactics of tunnelling, camping and slugging for bleedout.
NoED CAN be called an anti-genrush perk (not that I ever have a genrush team.....) but it also has major glaring inconsistencies compared to every other Exposed perk: There is no activation requirement (endgame starting is not a requirement, I'll explain in a bit) and there is ZERO NOTICE for the most powerful status in the game.
Currently there are two perks that hide Exposed. NoED and Devour Hope. One of which has an activation requirement, that being get hooks. Every other Exposed effect warns the survivor instantly.
While it can be argued that a perk like Rancor can also have zero requirement, you still have a more passive effect and the Exposed effect comes from generators complete, rather than endgame reached. You then only have ONE Exposed survivor who knows they're your target. With NoED, you can dominate, close the hatch and instant down the last survivor. And this is a BASIC perk, not a teachable.
For the survivor "meta" you need teachables from at least 2 survivors, possibly 3. Depending on if you want to use it on one of them. Without getting them in the Shrine, that's a HUGE investment, especially since killer gets 2-3x the bloodpoints that a survivor does. NoED is just a basic perk that always exists in a killer's bloodweb. You can use it day one.
And I use Rancor on some killers. It's not that bad actually.
Survivors can counter NOED and pretty much all killers perks by a shift in playstyle. So this argument doesn't stand up.
And "individually they don't swing the outcome of a game" is a blatantly lie. I can literally send you matches were a single Unbreakable turned a game from a 4k to a 0 or 1k. A single Unbreakable ! Not to mention, a single DS means that the killer is forced to "respect" everyone in order to not risk getting hit by it, a single DH can turn a 30 seconds chase into a 2 minute chase and so on.
And "the killer decide who dies when" is, again, a lie. Killers don't have a button to kill a specific survivor whenever they feel like it. Against good survivors with a M1 killer, you're very often forced to abandon the chase and go for the weaker survivors, otherwise you're throwing away the match.
At least survivors get a notification for NOED after someone gets hit, while killers don't get notifications for who specifically has DS, BT, Unbreakable, Adrenaline untill they are used, the same way with NOED.
All your points are very flawed and misleading.
I main red rank solo survivor, I just disagree. It's not that hard to deal with and people need to learn to scout the area they are in for totems. There is really no excuse for it in higher ranks.
The only circumstance I find NOED to feel really unfair is when the killer is insta-down and a face camper. You can focus gens and make the most of your teammate's time, but that leaves zero time for totems. Even if you manage to get all the gens done within that person's lifespan, assuming you were able to pop two during their chase, the next person to take a hit going down to NOED is gonna also die. First hook. With no pts, just like the first person. Probably de-pip. It's a ######### situation all around. NOED just exacerbates it, IMO.
Well, if you don't like suffering due to your teams ineptitude, perhaps you can go try a single player game.
Well, when I say playstyle, I mean a general spreading of damage and all that. As in I never tunnel, rarely slug and NEVER camp. The only time I'm near a hook is in a chase or kicking a generator.
I have never had a single second chance perk swing a game for me. When someone is picked up off the ground, I'm normally either in a chase or damaging generators so go ahead and use Unbreakable. DS? Been hit twice in recent memory, one was a test to see if they had it and the other was a blatant abuse. Everyone still died. Borrowed Time? Never affects me, as I'm normally too far away or I target the unhooker. From where I'm standing, I didn't lie because I never have a problem with these perks.
As for the killer deciding who dies, I mean by counting hooks and spreading damage, not having a permanent Ebony Mori. IF you can remember who's had how many hooks or who is annoying you the most, then you CAN decide their fate. Once again, I'm not lying, you've just misinterpreted my slightly vague point. I did also say ESSENTIALLY as in not 100% of the time. I understand that there are games when survivors dictate the flow of the game, but I find them to be the exception.
As for killer notifications, you get some warning or can deduce if they have it quite easily. If you have an obsession perk, you're probably respecting the possibility of DS anyway, but if you're not, then it's pretty obvious. Especially with how some survivors play. Same with Borrowed Time, as in unless you're actively camping with a TR then reckless saves are a good indication.
And you're right. Survivors are notified AFTER the hit, and that is my single biggest complaint. There is no build-up, warning or effort. Just a single hit and a confused and now angry survivor who's been shoved to the dirt. Normally the one who did bones as well, the thing that killers tell survivors to do. So, here's the thing. I did what I was meant to to avoid all stupid second-chance perks, I know how to beat them and I actively try to.
From where I'm standing, I'm right. I don't lie here because that doesn't help anyone. You may have different observations to me, but that doesn't make me a liar.
Like what? I've binged them for a decade and a half. Occasionally I like to play a bit of Dead by Daylight for something different.
And Borderlands 3 is pretty abysmal in terms of story, but the DLC is improving on that. Only slightly though. Kinda telling of the single-player market lately.
My point was you can't expect to play online multiplayer games and have all matches go the way you want. The problem isn't NoEd, it isn't the Killer using NoEd, it isn't an issue with finding or cleaning totems (since they have plenty of ways to be found), the problem is your teammates. Nothing needs to change except for people taking a bit more responsibility.
I never get mad at the Killer for using NoEd, I get mad at my lovely group of Randoms who don't cleans totems.I also get mad at them when they try to save me while NoEd is active. Either look for the totem or leave out the gate. No one is entitled to escaping, if more survivors left or if more survivors brought in a map/small game/ detectives hunch and cleansed totems, less and less killers would use NoEd.
You would think that with the amount of complaints about NoEd, people would use the counters that are provided, but they wont. Instead they want to stick to the meta.
I never expect a match to go the way I want, and I've been against NoED for a long time. I've highlighted how it's a bad perk and how to fix it to make it still powerful but not as frustrating.
I play Dead by Daylight for a challenge and because it is fun. NoED spits in the face of all that. There is no challenge, there is no fun. There is only death and suffering.
You say you want a challenge and yet you complain about NoEd when its counters are easy to use. It isn't a bad perk, it has a huge weakness for a huge payload. It is only 5 totems, you get a challenge by searching for them while avoiding the Killer and completing generators. The challenge is made easier by using easy to access perks or using an item. You also have the option to go straight for one of the doors and leave, though most Survivors feel entitled in ensuring that everyone escapes, which leads to more deaths.
You don't want a challenge, you and everyone else who complains about NoEd want the game made easier.
No, I don't want the game to be easier. I want an appropriate build up or effort for such a substantial reward. I want this poor excuse of a meta perk to be brought in line with the REST of the Exposed effects and perks. I WANT my idiot teammates to put in half the effort I do without using Small Game or Detective's Hunch by the way into cleansing totems and stopping the potential use of this perk.
I play killer a lot more lately, because of rank reset errors and I never look at using this perk. Even on what can be considered "weaker" killers, since I am a Pig main after all, and you know why I don't use NoED? Because I will get my two hits and get them, or they escape because they outplayed me. I take the loss and I move on. I'll use a perk that will help me all game, and if that doesn't help, my skills aren't up to par and the survivors do their job, then they can escape. They earned it.
Kills are not everything. It's time the killer community realise that too.
When you're ready to have a civilised conversation rather than insulting me based on assumptions, you know where to find me.
Just because these perks weren't personally as effective against you, doesn't mean that they can't swing the outcome of a match. If they couldn't, then nobody would complain about them.
And I personally don't complain about them. I only want DS skill check to not trigger if a survivor is grabbed from a locker, so it's less abusable. BT could use some tweaks so it becomes better for both sides, but I'm fine with it either way.
Survivors dictating the flow of the match isn't that uncommon to me. Most of them die due to their own mistakes.
And you can see when a killer has NOED before hitting you, because they are noticeable faster. I honestly don't care if you make the exposed effect from NOED be seen immediately the end game starts, but I still believe a totem counter would be a better solution. Not only you could prevent it better in solo, but if there's 1 totem left in end game, you can always expect NOED and if you see the killer is faster than usual, you can be sure he has NOED.
Nowhere in my post is an insult directed at you. You just don't want to admit that you want NoEd nerfed to give you an easier time. A Killer playing with 3 perks for the majority of the match is a lot of effort when going up Survivors 16 perks. Especially since Survivors can dictate whether or not the power activates.
Your refusal of you or one of your teammates to use 1 perk slot out of 16 to counter a Killers 1 perk slot out of 4 is enough proof that you don't want a challenging game. Why is it so much to ask for any of you to change one of your perks? Because you all rely on the same crutch meta perks and refuse to change. That isn't a Killer problem nor is it a game problem, it is a player problem. Detectives Hutch and Small Game will help you all game. It will make the game less uncertain because you would know that you got all the totems. Heck, you can run plunderers or spend blood points to stock up on maps and not give up your precious perk slot. I did that and I have over 20 maps just playing in the last week.
Surviving isn't everything, you and your teammates are not entitled to escape if you finish the generators. The match isn't over until the doors are open and you have crossed the threshold.
When you're ready to be honest about wanting the game made easier because you don't want to give up a perk to counter a perk (even though maps are a thing), you know where to find me.
I counter NoED WITHOUT perks or maps! And you insult me by saying I want the game to be easier because of one perk. Surely it's more of a challenge for abandon the useful items and perks to deal with something like that and rely on natural skill.
To be brutally honest, I couldn't give the furry crack of a rat's behind if I escape or not, unless I have a daily ritual or an Archive that says I need to. For me it is entirely how the match itself goes. If I ran a killer for 3 generators, did one, cleansed 2 bones, got a save and healed them, but they got me naturally in the end, then ok. It was a good game and they got me. Some of the best games I've had, I've died in but the killer WORKED for their kill, they weren't handed it with a free and hidden Exposed. They killed me because they were BETTER, not lucky.
The changes I propose are simply to fix the glaring inconsistencies with other perks of a similar nature. You can still keep your free Exposed, but just make it the same as every other Exposure perk.