LockerLurk
LockerLurk
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@daddroid1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3870516#Comment_3870516
Well, that sounds reasonable, but I'm guess the something else is not getting the downed survivor a bandage, or milk & cookies to help them feel better - more like downing another survivor, maybe the ONLY other one. I'm not blaming a killer for that, but not hooking them ought to have a trade-off, I want something productive to do while slugged, and I DO want to punish the killer, who, you can't forget, is wanting to punish/kill me. My question for those who main killer, but occasionally play survivor, what is your reaction when you get slugged to bleed out? Just passively accept it, or fight back in the only way you can?
And I do appreciate some killers would show mercy and take me to the gate, but I can't know that. But I have noticed an increase in 4x slugging and last-2 slugging in the last few months, and I expect there is an increase in bully SWFs at the same time. Based off the last survey, BHVR is likely going to do something and my proposal is likely less obnoxious to killers than many of the other ideas I've seen put out there.
Your fatal flaw here is assuming that loss is a punishment. Loss is simply a game state, like winning. You are not punished by the game if you're Sacrificed, you just get fewer points and don't win the round. Nothing is taken away from you really except more round.
Due to game changes, Hooking is punished, looping is punished, blinds are punished, stuns are punished, certain Killer powers can be punished. But loss has never been nor will it ever again be punished. Depips did exactly that, which is why they were removed - they weren't fun because they punished failing.
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@notyarbllewe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3870341#Comment_3870341
And it might be like a cycle: Doing that causes anger which make more do it, and so those more that do it cause more anger, and so on.
And yeah, they have to somehow calm down the genrushy and tunneling beginnings. If the survivors are all separate at start, it actually gives them a huge advantage if they are decent at sustaining chases.Because of the strength of separation, I've learned that the strongest way to start a game for me is to actually try to injure many in quick succession if they are luckily fairly close together at the beginning. This urges them to stay together to heal rather than strategically separate as you have more time to chase and down one before the genrushing starts.
But then, that also goes into the topic of slugging dealing with injuring a bunch rather than hooking anyone. With strong oppression, it is extremely hard for survivors to prevent 4k slugging when facing a powerful killer, and so they have to find some way without over-tuning survivor base kit powers.
I definitely think it's a cycle of abuse here, one person suffers if they don't do this, so they do it next round, then those people suffer, then those people do it next round, so on and so on. Perhaps forcibly start all Survs together or have gens locked down until Survs go unlock them? Or maybe make it so gens take a lot more charges at the start, but a lot less charges towards the end, down to 80. That would amp up the round's tension. At the least they need to look at balancing Survivor gen things being so stackable, I actually think maybe Killer gen stuff would be in an OK spot if they did.
For me it is always helpful to keep people wounded if possible yes, but not to split attention too much. Then again, I tend to see Surv chase Surv, it's not meant to be a tunnel, I just want to keep active with someone and sometimes it happens to be the person I found and lost earlier, then found again.
Honestly the biggest thing could simply be forcing gens to have a "cooldown" on repairs or something. Then give Survs something else to do, repair gens in stages maybe and have to add gas, IDK. SOMETHING new. -
"Weak" by which metric? Weak does not mean powerless.
Sadako requires a lot of practice and effort to use her, and some strong mindgame skills. She's not as braindead as she was when she was hyperbuffed into A tier.
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Why hit out people who want my attention when I can ignore them and get more BP? That way they're only wasting their own time throwing a fit and being silly, I don't owe y'all my attention just because you sit in the gate and want it. I don't owe you a final hit or a push out of the gate nor will I give you one unless I think I can reasonably get you. And I don't owe you the satisfaction of a final taunt… ever. The round is over, you win, my job is done and I am no longer needed. Get more BP time! :D
But I swear to god, if you do this to me and my friends as Surv and you refuse to save us, and I can see your Aura teabagging the Killer in the exit gate instead of coming to help us as with what happened in a Sadako round I had last night, then I hope you get nothing but sweaty four slowdown Blights for the next ten rounds. And I sincerely hope every single one of them bleeds you and humps you on the ground, too.
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If you're getting rough games enough times then yes, MMR eventually adjusts same as for Killer.
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Sometimes Bleedouts happen outside of the Killer's control. Someone could be downed, and then crawl off and die later, just to spite the Killer because they think the Killer is slugging when the Killer just needed to address something else and then the Survivor got lost in foliage. Is it fair to punish the Killer for the Survivor wanting to give the Killer a hard time.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3870443#Comment_3870443
I’ve never bought into the “DbD is dying” train but honestly I think this game is gonna kick the bucket in a year or two if they don’t reverse course a little. It’s wild how many people on these forums don’t see how bad the survivor experience has become.
They somehow see survivors giving up en masse and think it’s a problem of “survivor entitlement” or a conspiracy to “inflate kill rates”. In reality, the majority of survivors are not bad or entitled people, nor are they part of some ridiculous anti-killer conspiracy. They just aren’t having fun and have independently came to the same conclusion that games aren’t worth playing out anymore. And if that isn’t a sign that the survivor experience needs looking into, I don’t know what is.
The problem I think is they have brought in wayyyy too many antiloop Killers. They have to finish their Killer adjustments, get everyone to a decent spot, and then they'll have to reverse course a bit.
Some maps are much too small, some still have too many pallets and vaults while others have hardly any. Some Killers have too much in their kit and some still do not have enough. There's maybe two M1 chase style Killers up in A tier, the rest, notice, are all multikit or M2.
The game is still much too competitively minded and the way emblems and MMR is, reflect that - everyone has adapted too much to being used to hardcore sweat tactics and playing super seriously, and there's no recourse there. And yes, some of it is in fact people not wanting to learn the concepts of the game as much, and some of it IS in fact entitlement, both sides.
The pursuit of trying to fix problems for both sides, especially Survivor side, has created more issues. Instead of just buffing Killers that really do need it up to the level of others while also buffing some perks for Survivor, there's been a lot of nerfs for both sides that don't feel adequate. These changes SHOULD have been done so much sooner, but now that they're making up for lost time doing it all en masse it feels to some Survivors like they are being unfairly targeted and Killers get everything (untrue) while it ALSO feels to Killers like Survivors have become bigger and bigger and bigger babies about everything (also not true).
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@sickdeathfiend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3869635#Comment_3869635
When it's as bad as it is now, people don't have any incentive to play soloq so yes they will go next even more than usual because it's not fun anymore. It's the natural progression. So what you say tracks with my post. I expect it to continue to get worse, and my prediction is it will come to a head when they get bunch of new players from the FNAF chapter.
Unfortunately this is sort of a problem the playerbase made itself. Everyone wanted to sit in the "win at all costs" bed so much, now we all have to lie in it.
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Great. More sandbagging bots as Survivor and more unfun chase targets with free wallhacks as Killer. Nobody likes playing with bots.
It's actually tragic this is needed and it's going to ruin 2v8 for everyone, but I genuinely do not see how else they can resolve it for everyone.
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Snipping tool is very neat! :D
Anyway I think NTH is probably okay, it's got a requirement. Maybe run away from objectives to heal or hide?
I can hide pretty well, sometimes Killers get such excitable zoomies they miss little details, I do at least.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
The problem I have with this perk can be summed up with one word: Nurse.
That's definitely a big problem that has created lots of little problems and could oh so easily be solved by just making her blind while blinking.
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I've noticed this a lot here, and I'm getting sick of people only looking at how THEIR side is affected. Lord have I TRIED to be the bigger person and extend a kindly hand to others, but it doesn't seem to matter - people just want to vent and be angry when they don't easily win games it seems.
And I'm tired of it, because this isn't a vent forum. It's a discussion board.Nobody has a side. There are no friggin' sides, most DBD players play both Survivor and Killer to some degree. Nobody actually cares or should care about whether you prefer Killer or Survivor as if you need to support one side for president or another, everyone plays both to some degree. And if they don't, they are not a well-rounded enough player to make any sort of judgement call and can safely be ignored.
The Devs do not favor one side or the other. The game is not "massively X-sided" just because you are struggling right now.
The game is just really friggin' hard when the opponent you face is about at your same skill level, which I'm starting to suspect more and more is the case if you become too used to winstreaking or winning in general.
I think a lot of Killers boosted themselves in the past and this is why we see those complaints, or have in the past. Now, the issue seems to be opposite - many Survivor things were changed, so now they don't have a competitive edge from old boost tactics, so they face the same issue as Killers do - they get a player they cannot handle from being boosted and cannot get out of it. Since you do not change MMR from a DC, they never get out of the sweat zone from a DC. The result is complaining and upset Survivors believing that a balanced game is "massively Killer sided".
We saw the same happen after the death of the 3 gen meta and Overbrine meta. Killers that boosted themselves with gen perks ended up being slaughtered and complaining the game was too hard. But the game just adjusted an overkill meta and things that were too strong and not fun.
And that frustration leads to derailment and us vs. them. It leads to anger and talking around people and angry upvotes and what I suspect could be a spambot or false account issue on the forums based on the number of upvotes some of these posts are getting. I see it on Killer AND Survivor posts. I'm sorry but I don't for one second believe 35 people actually think a niche Pig addon is too strong and unfair, and that's just one such thread I've seen here. -
@notyarbllewe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3869649#Comment_3869649
Survivors as a whole are still very strong, it's just the solos themselves that are the weakest. If you saw my discussion after this one, I think we need more teamwork perks over just single person strengthening ones like Finesse; it'd make the game a lot more interactive. As solo, I just about always bring Kindred as it connects the team a lot better, and there are similar perks like Aftercare.
And yeah, they really got to address the slugging now. If you did their recent survey, BHVR did ask about how annoyed you get based on people getting slugged, most specifically the number of people.
I certainly agree with all of this. I think they have done well to address only the most toxic forms of problem playstyles while also allowing tactical use mostly; the last things to look at are slugging and maybe the overuse and stacking of gen items. I guarantee a lot of calm would come if the start of a round didn't feel so genrushy from the Killer perspective, or liable to tunnel and slug from the Survivor perspective. Tactics like slugs and camping and genrush really should only be more possible towards the end of a round, not at the start, because that puts too much pressure on the other side and feels bad to play against. It breeds discontent and bad feelings, increases resentment, and drives a wedge in the community.
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It's quite sad you feel the need to constantly disparage people and blame KIllers for your own failings as Survivor, let alone you blame stealth Killers - which aren't all that overpowered and often are M1 only - most of all. Is a Pig really so hard for you to handle that you believe they don't need buffs?
I will never understand. I just will never understand thinking that basic M1s are too much to handle. Most people would say the opposite, I'd say the opposite. I play a decent amount of Survivor too.
Killers deserve to have buffs and tweaks equal to those that would make them feel playable, good to use, and enjoyable. Survivors also deserve those buffs and tweaks, and guess what? Both sides get them because that's what fair is. You don't deserve more tweaks or buff than is fair just because you believe the other side does not. And the other side sure doesn't deserve nerfs just because you are unable or unwilling to learn how to handle them.
I have tried so damn hard to be nice to some of the angriest Surv sided players here. I really have. Everyone here has. Yet so many of them instead continue to choose a path of anger and call people names when they didn't even instigate anything.
I really, truly do not understand such entitlement. Truly. The one thing I'll agree with them on: We need Killer bots.
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@TieBreaker said:
Some individual fighting game characters have well over a hundred moves each. How is it that people can learn all that, but Vecna having four moves is too much to handle?
Well dude not everyone wants to learn a multiple moveset Killer, and not everyone is good at that skillset. Some people are better at Stealth, some are better at ranged, and some are better at chase. It depends on the person, Vecna very well actually be too much to handle for some people. And I bet those same people also don't play fighting games.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3869602#Comment_3869602
Im strong but no walk in the park. With survivors knowing my counters and a bad string of map rng escaping may not seem that difficult 😑
My friend, that is true of every Killer. Every Killer has a weakness. If Survivors know to lock lockers properly against Dredge and I get a bad map, I can't do much. If I'm Pig and people know how to make me waste my head traps, I'm just a basic M1 Killer. If you keep alert, work together, and share information Ghostface can't do much, and if you are erratic in movement and get in lockers against Artist, she's not too tough to beat.
No Killer is a walk in the park and every Killer has some counter. If Killers had no counters they really would all be overpowered. And I promise, any time you get good Survs who know what they are doing Killer can be really hard no matter who you're playing. It's part of why I don't really believe in Tierlists too much. -
Can confirm @notyarbllewe it's very possible for Survs to still win, I do it just fine when I play Survivor as long as the teamwork is on point. The issue is the art of being a SoloQ Survivor has been lost, I don't meet many good ones and when I do find one I usually pitch a friend request. It's very hard to SoloQ (Killer is always solo and a solo Surv is weaker than any Killer). But if your skill is about equal to everyone else in the round, it should be a pretty even 60/40 balance. Not impossible to win as Surv but tough, and a bit easier for Killer but not a guarantee.
I think tunnelling and camping are basically addressed by now. The real issue is toxic slugging.
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@sickdeathfiend said:
yes its awful. And killer is way too easy now, that it is boring imo. I had more fun as killer when survivors had a chance. Soloq survivor is probably the worst game experience out there right now. Why punish yourself to play it other than to complete a challenge real quick? even that can be painful. Devs dont give a damn so I expect the game to keep bleeding players. Instead of fixing the game they just add survivor bots to fill in for the players that gave up and quit the game. soon it will be a killer only game with nothing but survivor bots, but that seems to be what the killer only players who dont want any kind of challenge WANT the game to be, so be it. All my friends quit who played survivor for a reason.
It isn't even that.
I can literally play as kind as non meta as possible, I can go in not doing ANYTHING bad, I can go in playing friendly and spread hooks and be super chill, I can go in and purposefully try to lose.
And the second someone loses a chase with me, sees I'm a Killer they dislike, or they make a minor mistake I don't even try to correct, they still DC.
It's 100% not just Survivors not having a chance, because when I purposefully give them a chance they still do it. -
It's very sad how so many Killers have fallen by the wayside while new bandaid fixes keep being adjusted. I would be OK with more cosmetics and two really good chapters with just one character either Killer or Survivor a year, myself. The pace is exhausting! there is so, so much content and the barrier to entry is so high now I fear we will never find a way to resolve it.
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There are some Killers that won't let Survivors leave at the end. Pinhead's chains do this for example. There's also perks for this.
The best policy is simply to not go to the gates, and just run around breaking pallets and doing stuff for points. I never go to the gates or answer to noise spam, if they want to waste their time, let them waste their time. More BP for me.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3869602#Comment_3869602
Same I just cannot get past the clunkiness and unresponsiveness of Singularity with a controller.
I really can't do it either! The timing is so so precise. I can handle Pinhead OK and I can handle Artist OK, but not Singu. :(
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Stealth Killers and Killers that hide their TR exist to help counteract these by hiding their Red Stain. One of my good friends is an Onryo Main, they use her Demanifest to mindgame this way. I use Nightfall all the time with it giving me undetectable for this as well as faking my Remnant at loops. And some spaces still work just fine against Killers like these even then because they can be seen anyway. They aren't necessarily strong or useful unless the Survivor is already very skilled and knows how to use them. The vast majority are not. It's called counterplay, and it's alright to have.
There's a few spots that are maybe a bit too strong where the Killer simply can't mindgame and the loop is ALSO strong, such as at some versions of Shack,and those areas could be tweaked I suppose. But I don't think having checkspots overall is problematic or really an issue. I also don't think the Red Stain being visible through holes is an issue; if you're alert in chase you ought to be rewarded.
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The thing is they tried this already. When they had it in a PTB, people found ways to create situations where the Killer was forced to, that is actually had no choice, but to slug in areas that they couldn't hook from. Survivors would find places on the map where there weren't many or any hooks, or where finding a hook was very hard - like upstairs areas - then sit there. The Killer would be forced to slug them, leave, and of course they would then get their free unlimited Unbreakable and get up again.
It was too abuseable. Basekit Unbreakable can't be the proper solution, not unless it is limited to one use only and ONLY if most of the Survivors still in the match are actually being slugged this way. It's not fair to punish Killers using a down as pressure as if they were the same as a toxic Billy slugging everyone at five gens and humping them on the ground.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
Survivors are asking for a mechanic to die faster. I hope BHVR see's this and tries to move the needle in ANY other direction. People are so ridiculous.
Friend I'm a Killer Main and I am asking for a faster bleedout mechanic because I a) hate looking for four minutes when someone crawls off to waste my time because I left them down for like 30 seconds, and b) want Survivors to need to actually save their friends when they go down in a corner thus giving me more pressure and taking them off gens because dying has more urgency. It's probably better for everyone. Nothing else in this game even takes longer than two Minutes, why is the bleedout four?
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@Oputeeva said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866987#Comment_3866987
these are just tiny buffs (for they are QoL not buffs) to survivors killers get much bigger buffs
That also isn't true. Many, many, many Killer buffs this year have also been QoL buffs or tweaks, teeny tiny buffs. Only Killers that REALLY needed an update, like Freddy and Myers, have been buffed to any major degree everyone else has been QoL, minor adjustments, or some basekitting of necessary addons to help improve how the character plays. And as I previously stated, many Killers (Dracula, Chucky, Knight, Wesker, Onryo, Skull Merchant) have all been nerfed or tweaked down for being too strong.
Please don't make this situation us vs. them, both Survivors and Killers get buffs and nerfs in equal measure. The issue is 100% not that Killers all get buffs and Survivors only ever get nerfs. In fact there's still a few Killers that could use some serious updates, QoL, and yes… actual buffs.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866883#Comment_3866883
Thank you for acknowledging my strength :)
I have tried to learn Singularity. I failed to Singularity. I gave up and just learned Ghostface and Artist instead.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866906#Comment_3866906
do you think it's fun to have an item that does nothing? Why take flashlight when you nerf it to the point of total obscurity? Killers already have an edge over survivors (60% average kill rate) so why would you want to make survivor items even that more useless? It's not fun for survivors to have nothing meaningful in a game and being just a toy for killer's fun without any real options.
See? Not very productive discussion. You asked for legitimate case where chain blind just makes sense. Instead of acknowledging it, you started to rant. Both sides can go into rant, but it's just not productive.
My case still stands and "spaced out blinds" requirement would mean, that the flashlight is not a tool that forces killer to chase blinded, but a tool that forces him to kick the pallet (or actually chase by sounds/by memory) and nothing more (because whole blind duration is used for kick time and your suggestion would make killer immune to get another blind) - making flashlights basically fully useless if we don't actually count flashy saves.
Given that the item is already quite bad compared to toolbox or medkit (but it's fun so it's used in contrast to maps/keys), I don't see a reason to artificially make the item even that worse.
But as I said previously - I don't know of any legitimate case where 3x blind in a row is reasonable except bully squads (with headon, decisive strike, etc) or just killer being very new to the game (does not know to look up) or some very obscure random happenings (killer getting flashbanged around the corner, running into pallet while blind and then getting blinded 3rd time during kick animation) - so I am fully OK with killers getting some immunity after 2nd blind in a row.
I agree Flashlights need a better use. I just think being able to blind a ton of times in the role shouldn't be what its primary use is.
What if they highlighted things, like gens or totems or people, when you pointed them at someone instead of just being used as a pointless nuisance tactic?
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@vol4r said:
Look down or up for chain blinds, problem solved.
You cannot look anywhere when your camera is locked in the pallet break animation.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866969#Comment_3866969
True, but I still rarely get flashbanged because as I said, I am aware of where the other survivors are lurking.
That's awesome for you.
Not everyone plays with headphones though.
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I genuinely refuse to play Survivor rounds with randoms. I either bring in a team of 2 or 3 other people, or I give up and go play Killer. It's not because of Killer players either. It's because every other round, the random throws, the random dies on hook, the random DCs and we get a really terrible bot player. And the Killer justifiably goes "well, I might as well just end this quickly then, bad match". We all discuss in the EGC after and all are upset the person left, Killer included.
This is a problem. There need to be stricter DC penalties and hook suicides must be removed. If someone throws it needs to be counted as a DC and penalized.
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@Oputeeva said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866965#Comment_3866965
Yep they only nerf "good" survivors perks in few weeks but when it comes to broken perks/addons from killers nothing happens they just ignore them because tilted killer mains will gaslight here as it was with Chucky, when for me they made him balanced and actually fun to vs unlike before when he wins 90% of loops
It took half a year by my count to nerf MFT despite complaints about it from the start. It took 11 months to nerf Buckle the People as a meta combo. It took a year to nerf Circle of Healing. It took years to finally address Adrenaline.
BHVR does not nerf only Survivor things instantly, and it's not just tilted Killer Mains gaslighting anyone. In fact I see both sides here try to gatekeep and gaslight, a lot - you just don't notice it or you forgive it when your side does it. I understand that temptation, I have to remind myself that not everything other Killer Mains say is valid, too.
But please adjust your attitude about this game, and realize most people here play both sides. All your posts I have seen today have been needlessly aggressive, look like they are baiting, or imply that BHVR just doesn;t care about one side of the game. And I genuinely don't see the need for such aggression when not a soul here has attacked you tonight whatsoever.
If you truly feel this game is so problematic and unfun, why continue to play? Why ask for everyone else to have a worse time to make yourself have a good time?
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@Alicia_Tried6041 said:
Yes, let's nerf every perk that gives survivors even the slightest chance in a killer sided game. It's not like killers are busted already with over powered abilities and add ons. No, of course not….(sarcasm) Killers of course get a fast vault perk but not survivors?
Finesse was released just this year. That is a Survivor fast vault perk, my friend.
@Oputeeva said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866979#Comment_3866979
So true constant nerfs on survivors stuff is irritating
Several Killer things have been nerfed in the past year or Survivor things added to counter. Skull Merchant, Chucky, all strong generator perks, certain combinations like Weave+Franklins that caused issues, Midwich the most Killer sided map was reworked, perks to counter certain Killer strategies, etc.
There's also the fact an anti 3gen was added, 10 extra hook seconds, much needed AFC, many niche perks to combat certain playstyles, etc. It simply isn't accurate that Survivors have gotten nothing but nerfs, and Killers nothing but buffs, friend. :) -
@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865574#Comment_3865574
That's fair. It probably also helps that I don't really see a difference in my matches between a 3k and a 4k. In my eyes, both are good performances on my side. It also probably helps that I run BBQ on a number of my builds, so I often hook the third survivor, then run straight to the fourth, down them... and then probably carry them to the hatch :)
Oddly, sometimes I like survivors to know that I'm letting them go, hence downing them first, or just winning hatch race and waiting not far from it to see them off. There are cases where I'll see someone is having a bad match and just 'miss' attacks and stuff, but I like to have that 'handshake' at the end of the game.
And I totally get the need to occasionally pull the kid gloves off and hit back against a bully squad. The only real counter I have for a very talented bully squad is to slug them until I think nobody's around for a save. That's why sometimes I'll pump the brakes on my ostensibly survivor-sided arguments and say that there are some things we just need to be careful about.
Finally, another Killer that like me, still gives hatch because a 3k and 4k are the same to them. If I feel you deserve it? You get hatch. I probably got my 4k and Mori in another round, anyway.
Hell sometimes I'm fine with a 2k, if we're really vibing.
My deepest and sincerest wish is that all adepts are changed to ONLY needing to get a 3k, or just playing a round with all 3 perks and getting the equivalent of a 3k. I really don't like needing to slug to earn adepts. It feels bad.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864369#Comment_3864369
I mean, if Potential Energy and Weaving Spiders are considered 'Strong' when both of them are better for the killer than the survivors at the best of times, I'd hate to see what would be classified as a 'weak' perk…
I regularly run Potential because I like the perk. I run it on Alucard. I have gotten some really dumb plays and done some amazing work with it. I play mostly in SWF with it. More perks SHOULD be designed like STB, Potential, WS… and far far far less like Lithe, old MFT, etc. Perks shouldn't all just give flat perfect value every single time, but create interesting scenarios and I think some perks are far better when they create really helpful effects but also carry risk in using them. That's fun. Risk is fun. Gambling is fun, more fun than just slapping on Lithe-Info Perk-Genperk-Endurance Perk like every other Survivor I play with does, anyway.
I also just a) aggressively do not care about winning as Survivor, b) am not interested in always running things that stomp half of all Killers into the dirt or rely on the Killer sucking more than me to get value. I have no need or want to always run the best things forever and spike my MMR into the stratosphere amongst the sweat-blights and turbo Nurses. It baffles me why anyone on either side would want that. Like do you really need to win that hard and get absurd Survivor winstreaks in the hundreds just to have a good time? Do you need thousand plus 4k streaks as Killer to enjoy the game? That sounds like miserably chasing a dragon to me…
I think Potential's niche is fine, it can be strong in the correct setup, and requires effort and luck in a SWF to use well. I think that's true of any perk that has risk attached. That you think perks like these be weak, even "a Killer perk", is telling to me… and greatly betrays a rather bad case of "Gotta Win Syndrome" similar to Killers who always only ever want to 4k every single round.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
Yeah, I think a lot of people would prefer the game be dead simple. As in all the killers would work essentially the same way, and the game mechanics wouldn't vary all that much. That way, they don't have to think all that much. That's not to call anyone stupid (well, maybe some people, lol), but because a great many players play DBD very casually, and for those, added complexity makes the game feel somewhat inaccessible.
The same with new players, who I imagine must find it intimidating when the scope of the DBD's convolutions and idiosyncrasies (I'm being polite there) becomes apparent.
And then you have the lazy people, who just want a one-size-fits-all strategy to use, and who can't be bothered to learn anything.
For survs, that might mean learning how to play against anti-loop or stealth killers, learn counters for killer powers, etc. For killers, that might mean learning to track survs without aura perks, play meta, win without tunneling every match, etc.
Some people just don't want to put in the effort, and to be honest there are some days I kind of get it. Not often mind you, but on occasion, like when I just want to chill but get hard tunneled out by a 10K hour nurse or stomped by a 40K hour SWF and it feels like little of the ~6K hours I've put in the game matters all that much.
But by and large I think complexity is a good thing. Now there will come a time where the game's increasing complexity proves to be a serious barrier for new and casual players, if we're not there already.
Which is why I agree that a much more robust tutorial mode is very much needed.
I'm on this page too, we absolutely need robust tutorials and more open clarification of how things in the game work, in the actual game.
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They cooked. Freddy Cooked.
Survivors are cooked.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864420#Comment_3864420
Flashbangs are easily counterable by being aware of your surroundings when you pick up a survivor. You don't have to bring Lightborn.
Also, I would recommend you learn to appreciate the challenge and use it to make you better at the game. Respect the players, learn the ways to counter them without the crutch of Lightborn, and you will be a better player.The problem is Flashbang noise occlusion is still glitched even with the fix added. It's hard to be aware of something you cannot hear coming.
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I promise as a Killer if I see you trying, I am 95% going to keep the game going so you get the chance to try. It's when you don't try and just want out that I will kill you without regret, and then if it's too soon to end probably meme or farm with the ones who have the cojones to stay.
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Personally more than the global average balancing, I'm much more interested in or concerned with egregious outliers. I think the game is well-enough balanced for the average experience of players at most levels, leaning killer (a major reason for that being that most survivor groups consist of solos and duos and often pretty mismatchedly so, although there's more reasons too). But it leaning killer is a good thing. What I don't think is a good thing are extreme imbalance cases of a select few overpowered killers/add-ons, SWF loadouts, maps, and the fact that for (killer and SWF) players beyond a certain skill and experience threshold, most matches become laughably easy, winrates of 90+% being the norm and winstreaks of hundreds (or even thousands) of matches not uncommon. These outliers are much more pressing issues in my mind than the question whether the game is killer-leaning enough at 60% killrates on a global average.
@zarr You are the only one I have seen so far who has really hit the nail on the head here. The issue isn't MMR, kill or win rates, or whether or not the game is "too Killer sided" (it is slightly Killer sided and as you point out that's a good thing, even a necessary evil). The issue is that the outlier things are so strong, they create problems for the other 99% of everyone else who is in the bellcurve of average, to the point it makes the game feel bad for the losing side in these setups.
It simply should not be possible to winstreak in the hundreds or thousands just because you picked the right SWF setup or Killer, win 90% of rounds either side, run loadouts that make imbalances even more imbalanced as a SWF, force things to always be in your favor, and create such terrible MMR imbalances due to bad matchmaking that babies end up stomped on by a really amazingly good 6000+ hour Xenomorph.
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@Oputeeva said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865859#Comment_3865859
I play good (more than 3k hours) when the killer is somehow counterable and I repeat once again if you didn't understand I play solo and no one tells me the location of the killer. This addon is not healthy cuz my teammates don't want to play against such an addon so they just go next, this is a clear indicator that the addon is not okay, it is incomprehensible how you can defend this, here as in steam forums a lot of killer mains in the posts, what kind of double standards?!
My friend you seem to dogpile on Killers a lot here for no reason. Perhaps take a step back, cool your head, and approach from a balanced perspective?
Nobody is saying you are unskilled. Nobody is saying you are bad at the game or lack hours. People just would like any proposed Survivor changes to not completely neglect the Killer experience, and vice versa. Would it really be beneficial for Killer side to nuke a addon on a weaker Killer just because some Survivors dislike it?
Let me rephrase that: Was it fair to totally nerf medkits because they created issues for some Killers? Do you think it was a fair tradeoff to nerf WGLF after its buff when it wasn't much of an issue? Was it okay to change Spine Chill's vault speed because Spine Chill itself was an issue for Stealth Killers?
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People don't settle for 1 Kill because it feels bad to only get 1 Kill.
That's what I am saying the problem is. The game tells us that a 1k is still victory, but it doesn't put its money where its mouth is in that regard because no matter what, 1k feels like you lost because it is rarely enough to pip you or give you many points. That feels bad, that feels like a punishment for failure. That's why a 1k does not feel like winning. The game needs to not make it feel so bad to only get one Kill by simply making trying be rewarding enough if you really tried your best and just got shat on by a really good team. It needs to do more to make it still feel like you accomplished something for playing well, even if you just get 8 hooks or one kill, which the game currently does not do. That is, it doesn't reward you for merely trying your best against a really rough team, and it also rewards people who needlessly push for a 4k when you really do not need that for the game to be a Killer win.
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Ghost Survivors have potential to be very thematic. My issue is though, the ghosts won't be able to do much more than be chaseable or participate on other things otherwise it's kind of unfair to the Killer. You'd have to limit their power and what they can do, otherwise it's like the Killer never got any pressure at all. So maybe, ghosts can participate on things but will not progress them, only earning BP for doing it, and when the team succeeds they share the points. So for example, a Ghost can cleanse totems and open chests, work on gens, or heal Survivors, but their progress doesn't actually do anything - they maybe open the chest, but they don't progress gens whatsoever nor does healing progress. They can however pick up teammates from being Downed, fix Deep Wound, or open things for others. Basically:
- Ghosts are invisible to the Killer, make no noise (they do not whimper or have footsteps), don't create loud noise notifications (Scream perks do not work on them and rushed actions create no noise), leave no scratch marks, and do not trigger any Killer perks or information. They therefore cannot be tunneled or even chased.
- Ghosts cannot trigger Entity-blocking on vaults.
- Ghosts however do trigger Crows, and are visible to other Survivors within 16 m.
- Ghosts cannot use any perks, all perks are deactivated when the Survivor dies.
- Ghosts cannot pick up items or use them (they are intangible ghosts).
- Ghosts move through breakable objects or other players as if they weren't there. This includes pallets, breakable walls, other Survivors and the Killer. This also means they cannot throw pallets, unhook anyone, bodyblock, or sandbag.
- Ghosts can open chests, cleanse dull totems (but not cast boons or remove hexes), and use lockers. This has the cool effect of it looking like things are magically being done on their own! Spooky!
- Ghosts can participate in healing, invocations, and generators, but they do not apply any stackable bonuses or progress these in any way (as that would be unfair).
- Ghosts do not trigger the AFC (they're not there).
- Ghosts are permanently Blind (to prevent information abuse in Comms). In addition, Ghosts are permanently Broken, but only as a cosmetic effect to be more spooky. Being Broken doesn't do anything for them, it just is a cool morbid reminder that they'e dead.
- Ghosts cannot see the Killer, and instead only see scratch Marks of the Killer, which are suppressed if the Killer becomes Undetectable (again, prevents info abuse in Comms).
- Anything a Ghost does that a Survivor can do earns points as if they were a living Survivor, meaning death isn't the end of earning BP! Yes that means if they are in range when the chase music begins for someone else, they can "participate" in the chase and earn points by running and vaulting as if they were being chased.
- Respawing as a Ghost Survivor is optional, and done by pressing a different button other than the Spectate button. The Survivor can do this at any time after they die.
So, lots of potential for a thematic approach to staying in the round and being able to get points and still play, but without any way it could be abused by people who want to sandbag their team or harass the Killer, plus it keeps people being eliminated a form of pressure for the Killer without ruining it for everyone else. I also love the spirit orb idea! Maybe if you are a Ghost Survivor you have an alternative objective that is a side thing, so you still have something to do? It just shouldn't do anything to help the team get a boost, as that would tilt the game unfairly if Killers need to also worry about invisible Survivor shenanigans on top of what they already have to factor in.
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@Mandy said:
This is an interesting discussion, I think there has to be some distinction as well between slugging for pressure in a match, which most people don't seem to mind, and slugging for no reason - when you slug survivors at 5 gens or something. Also, you down someone, see someone hanging around with a flashlight, so you down them - one of them is naturally going to be slugged for some length of time…whatever "solution" there is to slugging has to take those factors into consideration (if there's even a solution for slugging).
@Yggleif I also remember those days, so you're not remembering incorrectly. It was either a straight up trade on the hook, or you needed a couple of survivors to be able to make a successful save.
I wanted to address this in a separate post so my first didn't get too long, it's already long enough!
I really think most people realize slugging is sometimes necessary. But what most people want, Mandy, is for the following situations to be addressed by an antislug mechanic:
- Having to slug at 2 people left in order to find the last person for a 4k, especially when that search takes forever to do because someone hides for hatch,
- Killers slugging people on purpose so they can allow them to bleed out for four minutes, especially in cases where it's all of the Survivors left in the round and the Killer actually refuses to hook, and
- Killers like Billy or Nurse coming into the game with the sole purpose of slugging everyone in a Survivor Pile as fast as possible and being able to easily do this before the Survivors have any chance to feasibly recover from this assault.
That is, the main problems people have seem to be with slugging for hatch/the 4k, true toxic slugging, and what I refer to personally as "Slug-Rushing" (which is only possible on some Killers).
Realistically, how could we fix these? My ideas:
- Slugging for 4k/Hatch: Have some sort of info for the Killer doesn't bleed someone out searching, as that seems to be the real issue and not just looking for the last guy to prevent hatch. Alternately, punish hiding for hatch much more severely, since this usually happens because one Survivor is trying to wait for hatch to the detriment of their teammate, not because the other Survivor is doing anything helpful. In cases where the last Surv is close by, this doesn't need to be done because both Survivors are easily gotten without leaving anyone slugged.
- Toxic Slugging: This should never happen. If a Killer is holding a slug like this, or many, I think an AFC-like feature could help.. At the end of the timer in this case, the Survivor (or multiples if many in a cluster are slugged like this) automatically gets up, and has Endurance and Haste. This only applies if the Killer is within 4 m or less, does not go through floors (like AFC doesn't), and only after one minute of time has elapsed (as it doesn't take you more than a minute to punish altruism where everyone is in one area). It turns off entirely when the Killer begins hooking Survivors within that one minute timer, so as not to punish plays made to halt overly enthusiastic altruism plays by Survivors. In addition, perhaps decrease the bleedout timer to 3 minutes so people aren't sitting there for a long time, and then rework perks like Knockout to make Bleedout happen more quickly similar to Monstrous Shrine (thus adding pressure without encouraging slugging too much).
- Slug-Rushing: The above solution can also come into play if the game determines a Killer has downed many people but not hooked within the first 3 minutes of a round, AND no more than 2 generators are completed, but with a much faster timer (something like 30 seconds). This means a Billy who comes in to push slugs at 5 gens can't do it as easily. Care would be needed to ensure this doesn't hit Killers genuinely unable to do this, however.
What do the rest of you guys think, are any of these feasible solutions for both sides? We certainly don't need to punish needed slugs for pressure, but these sorts of problematic slugs have to go.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866419#Comment_3866419
Defending against a save sometimes requires leaving the slugged survivor, especially if it is a low mobility M1 killer.
If a killer is forced to slug a survivor because a nearby teammate has a flashlight or toolbox, that teammate is obviously going to run away from the slugged survivor if the killer tries to chase them. You're basically saying killers should be punished if they chase after the teammate.
In this scenario, chasing after the teammate, even if it results in leaving the slugged survivor, is slugging for strategic reasons.
This is true. I dislike slugging for too long as a general rule and try to do it as little as possible, but sometimes, it's just necessary. Especially as an M1 with low mobility.
I am a Killer Main that would really rather just hook you and continue the game. I'm not one of these players out here four man slugging at five gens or doing these sorts of multiple slugs on purpose whatsoever. I find it boring to sit for 4 minutes and even more boring when the game doesn't last long enough.
I am a Dredge Main. I primarily likes mobility Killers, but I am learning Killers with lower mobility to force myself to get better at chase macro because I'm weaker at it. I've noticed as someone like Myers or Ghostface or Pig, you really do need to leave slugs sometimes as a form of pressure. In fact it can be beneficial to use slugs as bait like this for some Killers to do this, because it opens opportunities for them to use their power or create zones of defense without having to 3gen or tunnel, especially if the team they're against likes to pop gens quickly or is too altruistic.I can count a few times I have, in the course of learning Ghostface for instance, used a slug to bait stalk for later on someone, or to punish someone throwing a teammate under the bus as one of the last two people (and then I usually give the slug hatch since I know that's probably annoying for the slug to be used this way). I had a game on Yamaoka recently as Ghostface where I didn't have anywhere else to be because I had two people dead but nobody was on generators. I had one of them not engaging at all, just hiding for hatch after I downed their friend instead of looking for one of the last couple gens to do during a very long chase. I felt bad for their teammate, so I left the down, sat in the Shrine, then stalked the hider when they finally came out and then let the original slug go.
I've also needed to leave slugs in a cluster of gens because there were no other gens in range I could defend easily, I had to do this as Pig once on Red Forest because all the other gens on the other side of the map were too far for me to defend, I was out of my traps, and if I left the cluster and my slug (who happened to be there, I didn't intentionally do this) I would have lost all of my pressure.
In both of these cases, if I were Dredge or Sadako, I could have zipped over and checked other gens for other Survivors, then come back. if I were Unknown, I could have gone to my Hallucination and done that. If I were Houndmaster or Twins, I could have sent Victor or Snug to check in that direction. But because I was a low mobility M1, I didn't have much choice here.
The issue extends further than this in that sometimes, maligned and annoying tactics can be the proper tactical play to gain some pressure or an advantage to leverage later. I've had to stalk hooks as Ghostface as a form of defense when Survivors just won't leave them, or keep being super altruistic - I'm not intending to proxy, that's just where everyone is, and multiple slugs can happen as a result of them letting me stalk them. I've had cases as Pig where everyone has a trap on but they won't help their friend because they all want the traps off, so the fourth person stays slugged and bleeds out through no fault of my own. I have many times had several Survivors sabo every hook I could feasibly get to, meaning if I didn't slug everyone in range this way (they were nowhere else…) then I would have no pressure until my hooks came back even though I didn't want to slug. As both these Killers, I have had many cases where if I didn't keep an eye on a nearby slug I knew would result in me finding someone to hit from ambush, I wouldn't find anyone. As both Killers, I've had to use a slug setup to defend areas because I can't get to elsewhere in time as well, and I've also had Survivors crawl off and lose themselves this way, accidentally resulting in their own bleedout when I didn't mean it.For Killers like these, they don't have the luxury or the option not to engage in some slugging sometimes. They can't afford to tunnel as they aren't mobile enough to make use of it, and they might be forced to proxy areas because they can't reach where other Survivors are in time to defend the rest of the map even with maps being this small. They just do not have the mobility to check everywhere and "play nice" the way Survivors might want them to, because they do not have options. They functionally HAVE to play this way, and it's intentional they play this way, because their powers are best used to engage in interaction opportunities this way.
So, that's kind of why some amount of slugging, and to a lesser degree tunnelling and camping, must stay. Until these Killers no longer need to use it as a primary way to pressure, because they otherwise don't have options and have no choice.
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@HerInfernalMajesty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/436159/post-event-clarity-is-hitting-hard-rn
Yes I too am a Bloodpoint addict. And yes I do feel the withdrawals. The sweet sanguinary promise of the upcoming Bloodmoon is the only way I will be able to manage. 🩸🌑
Hang in there, we have Chaos Shuffle, Freddy rework, and Junji Ito to tide us over 🥵😄😄😄
Chaos Shuffle should be a permanent mode. It's the best! I don't know anyone either side who hates it, and it allows people to try new stuff.
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@JPLongstreet said:
Its a product of tons of content in a game from 2016 that is still adding more, and changing most of what is already in it since then. Saying DBD is not new player friendly is a gross understatement, and in the last two years or more it's no longer casual friendly either.
Takes hundreds of hours and 14 YouTube videos to get to the point of not sucking at the game. It takes hundreds more and 114 videos and many many losses to gain good game sense and be knowledgeable in most situations.
There's just that much to learn and retain, and then apply correctly. If most of the overall playerbase doesn't play more than a couple of hours at a time 1-4 days a week, well...
And I think those with much more knowledge and hours than me often forget that.
I couldn't agree with this more, JP. I think the biggest problem is that the game, and this community, encourages a comp mindset and NEEDING to get really good to do well, but the actual gameplay isn't like that. Most people who play aren't here on these forums. They just play. I don't think those players care that Legion is considered very weak, nor that Singularity is better if much harder. And not everyone vibes with those mechanics either, just because I might really be good at and enjoy Pig doesn't mean you will after all.
I think these high tier high level high hour players 100% forget that.
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@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866904#Comment_3866904
It absolutely is in the spirit of the game.
Not only was it intended, but also thematically it's a slasher movie simulator. What slasher movie villain would try to space out their victims to make sure everyone has an equal opportunity for them to chase them? It's only because that happens to be the least frustrating thing to play against that people insist on that.
If casuals pick up the game, they're going to want to kill the survivors, most likely while playing whichever licensed character brought them into the game. The idea of spacing out hooks is unintuitive and doesn't make any sense with what this game is trying to achieve. It's only people who are fully invested in the game who care about spacing out hooks.
That's all fair, and I'm not saying change that. But my point is, wouldn't it be more accessible and feel a lot more casual if ANY amount of Kills felt more like a win, and escaping through hatch by the skin of your teeth felt more… rewarding? Being the Final Girl should be as celebrated as having even just one Kill, because you can still have a decent horror film even if a lot of people survive the Slasher or the Slasher kills nearly everyone. We don't say Sidney Prescott is less of a Final Girl in Scream 2 where almost all her friends die, so why is that the case here? And we don't say Ghostface is less of a Killer because his kill count in Scream 6 is lower than in all the other Scream movies, so why is only 1 Kill even considered a loss here? If we're talking about the game's spirit, then low kill and escape counts should also matter as those can still make a good Slasher horror experience just fine.
Every amount of Kill or Escape should, theoretically, be therefore considered winning. I don't see why that's not the case. And lorewise, it just makes sense for a lot of hooks to be a similar wincon, because the intent of the hooks is to create misery for the Entity to feed on, and also you can literally pip up by 8hooking and letting people go anyway even if you win the round. I have Killer Main friends who do that all the time just to vibe because they are casual.
Why are these alternative wincons not considered if the Devs truly want this game to be casual? It doesn't harm anyone who wants their wincon to be a 3-4k or a 3-4 escape doing this. All it does is help people who don't want to play that way, feel more included. Shouldn't we want more inclusion and more people to play?
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EDIT: A doublepost because something glitched.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866883#Comment_3866883
I can see people liking the simpler characters, but I've never understood people saying "I main Legion" or "I main Myers." That would be so boring, to me.
That's sound logic, wanting the more complicated/more skillful killers to be stronger. Several killers don't get that kind of respect even though they deserve it, like Blight, Singularity, Unknown, etc, and instead get nerfs. And I don't want the inverse to be true either, that the less complicated killers are purposefully made to be less powerful, because playing them is never that simple. Look at Wraith, the most straightforward killer in the game, who has the most counterplay in chase out of the whole roster. That's an unequal playing field, and a discouragement from trying and playing different killers.
Well I can answer that. The challenge is why. Mindgaming is why. The chase is why.
I used to be an M2 Main. I used to play Huntress and Trickster and Nurse a lot. But I got bored of how easy it was to hit over loops, it didn't feel like a challenge. As it turns out, the challenge I wanted was in M1s. It feels more satisfying to me, personally, to have to mindgame because I really need to earn those hits and downs. For me, switching to maining Dredge was a nice compromise of mobility and challenge compared to a Killer that can turn loops into nothing, and honestly I prefer it. I'm actually learning Ghostface right now, because one of my friends who is an M1 Main suggested he can help teach mindgames and has an easy learning curve. My next pick is going to be Clown or Artist, because they both offer some amount of non-safety at loops as well as having to still do M1 chase.To me, it got very very boring to just… delete loops, remove loops, make loops unsafe. And I also like trying to challenge myself with less, a bit like an old Kaio world game. So I switched. Simple as that.
I still do not get the appeal of Legion though. To me they seem really weak, almost D tier. I definitely think M1s as a whole deserve to be better and need more respect, now more than ever since I actually get why now. It's not fair to relegate someone like a Legion or Ghostface or Wraith to B tier or lower just because their powers are simpler, actually having good M1 chase takes a lot of macro and micro skill I didn't realize was so necessary back when I mained M2s! I definitely respect anyone who can make these Killers work well for them!
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@notyarbllewe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866149#Comment_3866149
The two together primarily suck the most.
But you can't use an Exhaustion Perk after using another one, and to my knowledge the timings don't stack. If they are stacking in a way that creates a Finesse into a Lithe, that's likely not intentional and could even be a glitch with these two perks together or Exhaustion not working.
Speaking as someone who plays several M1s, and is learning a few of the weaker ones to round myself out (former M2 Main, I got bored of my chases being less exciting on M2s and switched more to M1s), I don't have that much issue catching people with chase perks even as low mobile M1s, as long as I also run a chase perk or I focus on my fundamentals. Admittedly, I could use more mindgaming practice as I am not used to it, but even as someone like Ghostface who I am new to, I have little issue. Finesse doesn't help much when you herd someone into a Trapper trap at the right vault. And I don't have trouble even with Wraith if I just use my power correctly. At best, Finesse adds maybe a few seconds, not much else, and at worst it encourages Survivors to overuse vaults and block them.