LockerLurk
LockerLurk
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@alpha5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866117#Comment_3866117
It's not that deep. Gamers 4k-slug for adept, for archives, to win harder, to not have to deal with a 4% or certain perks, out of malice, or maybe because their breakfast eggs weren't just right. They slug because they can, want to, need to, or are asked to. Bleeding out all 4 after slugging them is just convenient. No 4%, no need to find the other 3. Knowing which it is might be interesting. It doesn't improve the 4min though.
That's fine and all, and I agree things need to be done to fix the 4 man bleedout issue.
But I still strongly disagree with you that most players do anything in this game out of actual malice, and I still refuse to be that player.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866147#Comment_3866147
Sorry but if you are leaving a match over Head On or Blast Mine etc, that is a you problem and likely skill issue and these are not comparable. I do think flashbangs need to be changed though, as you should not be blinded while facing a wall causing you to drop a survivor and bugs are a different topic altogether.
A miserable killer design holds 4 people in a match they have to endure and they are all subject to the mechanics of that killer.
Nuking things is not the ideal answer, the ideal answer is to outright delete broken things or completely rework them from the ground up. The first is not possible as people paid for these characters so you cant just delete them outright, the second takes a lot of work and often for characters such as Twins or SM, who I suspect don't exactly do a roaring trade as far as skins go. So for BHVR nerfing the problem into the ground is a kind of win/win even if not the ideal solution.
tl;dr: You completely misread me. I said that we SHOULD NOT nerf to oblivion based on annoyance factor and doing so is as dumb as nerfing Blast Mine for being annoying. You somehow twisted that into me complaining about Blast Mine due to a lack of skill, and now have totally embarrassed yourself. You could have prevented that by reading.
See, this is the issue and why nothing ever gets solved. People assume when someone brings up a point about things, that means they're somehow bad at the game and have a skill issue when there could be legitimate reasons for those complaints, or that they may have only been brought up to make a point and aren't actual complaints. My point was literally a comparison, I have zero issue with any of these blinding perks and it's really telling that you would rather argue and insult my perceived game skill than meet me halfway and see my actual point here.
If you would have actually sat and read my other posts here, you would see that I wasn't complaining about any of these perks at all, I was simply using them to draw comparisons by saying that nerfing perks like these for annoyance reasons is as silly as nerfing anything else (like Killers) for annoyance reasons, yet somehow that was either not made clear or you willfully must have ignored that, I guess.
My actual point is, to reiterate, that it's very silly to nerf things that are merely annoying. Let me clarify: we are all very much aware here that mechanics that exist almost solely to cause much frustration simply shouldn't be in the game on either side nor should anything be nerfed into uselessness just for being "too annoying". It isn't okay that 3genning existed. It's not okay some people abuse the sound glitch with Flashbang to come out of nowhere when the Killer can't do anything, and no, facing a wall doesn't help against Flashbang. It's not okay that people abuse things like that locker flashlight glitch, and it's not okay some people put four aura read on Nurse and tunnel with it, and it's really not okay that anyone BMs anyone.But it's also not okay to decimate stuff people find fun, like Head On or Laser Tagging as Skull Merchant, just because someone somewhere is annoyed by it. Surely you see how silly it is to completely destroy something rather than a sensible nerf. MFT was fun but too strong with bad combos, so nerf. In contrast, Skull Merchant who did need a fix was nerfed properly, then decimated for very little reason despite only needing another tiny little nerf to fix pain points. Why? Because enough people whined about it.
Do not think that BHVR wouldn't do the same to your perks, tools, and resources just because enough Killers complained, look what happened to maps for example.Nerfing ANYTHING to uselessness because people complain, and this infighting, don't help. Instead of the one sided yelling at Killers or Survivors or whoever for "not being skilled enough LMAO", try, I beg of you, to see WHY someone might bring up other things that are annoying instead of reaching for the "my side good, other side bad" hammer again.
Stop blaming the other side for issues that affect everyone's enjoyability of this game. Please, my friend. It's truly not that hard.
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@DancewithmeKate said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866141#Comment_3866141
Please name one survivor perk made 70-80% killers dc or give up. That was what SM did to survivors. If you are saying to me that leaving her alone was good i have no words for you but disagree. SM deserved what happened to her. I'd take rework but i guess devs did not have enough time. So they came with temporary solution.
MFT meta was the worst meta the game has ever had for Killers. I saw several M1s give up chasing entirely when I ran it. CoH was a problem, I saw some Killers disconnect or not play certain Killers at all. I saw many Killers give up when it was possible for DS to work in endgame, simply opening the gates and standing in a corner. It does happen. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it does not happen. It's just in Killer terms, the "give up" Survivors ike to do instead looks like not playing Killers affected by it (reducing Killer diversity) and standing in a corner after opening gates, not disconnects, because disconnects punish the Killer and end the game prematurely when a Killer does it in a way that it doesn't for Survivor.
No Killer "deserves" to be destroyed for the sake of people being angry at them. SM needed a rework. Her gutting was not it. Putting Killers or perks or anything else in D tier until the Devs can get to them and fix them shouldn't be a solution and shouldn't be encouraged, look at how long it took poor Freddy and Myers to be fixed. Do you really think it's fair to punish a whole group who likes a certain Killer just because SOME people played them in the worst possible way? Do you think Dredge needs a nerf because some Dredges use his locker mechanic to tunnel or that Ghostface would need nerfing just because some Ghostfaces teabag every down?
I do not think it's healthy for the game to encourage totally gutting anything. Killers perks items or otherwise, just because the other side is frustrated. If a thing is a problem it's a problem and needs toning down. Not gutting into oblivion. I really shudder to think what you believe is fair balance if you believe hardcore nerfs to the point of destroying stuff are what the game needs rather than overall buffs for things that underperform, Survivors included. In fact, isn't hardcore gutting stuff like looping the reason maps suck now?
The solution cannot and should not be, "my side gets all the fun toys but your side gets to play with broken discarded trash that was once a fun toy". That's not balanced, equal, fair, or healthy for this game, and all of your posts so far here seem to insinuate you think Survivors are the only ones who ever deserve fun toys.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866148#Comment_3866148
Well Clown is different, you are expected to survive his gas potentially and they implemented fixes for it, but Plague mori is stationary and requires no input. I imagine it would be easy to look down or away from screen and kill the sound via headset, or use fingers if you dont use headset. I am not trying to make fun of your condition nor am I tone death to your issues.
I was asking you a question and I didn't say turn it off and leave, you are making a strawman of my question because I insulted you and I'm sorry, I didn't intend to insult, but I wanted to know why. please accept my apologies.
I think you would need a different solution if the problem is already started by the time the mori is out, and I have voted up for solutions for people with your condition regarding Plague in the past, idd like to see it for you, but even so idd rather see her shoot lasers out or her eyes and have a mori where she eyeball grills you.
Clown is different.
Why and how? Both he and Plague create issues. Both he and Plague are uncomfortable to play against for people who have those issues. I see no difference.
I was asking a question
You phrased it in a way that comes off very poor, then. And does in fact come off tone deaf. I'm sure you didn't mean to and I forgive you, but it really doesn't sound nice to tell people "Oh, you have an issue with X? Just don't look at it!" instead of implement something for when they have no choice other than to get up and leave. I don't want to get up and leave mid convo with my friends just because of a Mori triggering things I have no control over. And I don't think anyone ought to be expected to watch a Mori they do not want to watch just because I may want it. If someone wants to skip the Dredge Mori, fine, I like the Mori as a Dredge Main, but I certainly don't expect people to just "look away" and post things that come off like they don't care that the other person might be upset.
This isn't like a movie you opt into, you do not control what Killer you encounter. I know going in to watch Saw I will see gore and violence, and if I don't want that I shouldn't watch. I don't know for sure going into a round that I might encounter a Plague and she may want to Mori me. And I don't know how the match will go and if I even will be Mori'd. Hence, I'd rather find a way to let her have her win if she is beating me, then sit and watch an animation I don't want to watch.
Thank you for your input though, I'm sorry for coming off a bit strong.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866153#Comment_3866153
I will give you one. As survivor uou run killer around pallet and you manage to stun him - so you blind him. The killer does not want to waste the time chasing while blind, so he decides to break the pallet. Now as a survivor the most logical think you can do is get turn back and chain blind the killer to actually get more distance and force the killer to actually address being blind.
Sure, any additional blinds after that are just excessive, but apart from very rare occasions (killer somehow running into next pallet or survivor using headon on killer) - any additional chain blind is direct mistake of a killer (not looking up/down), that is very easy to circumvent.
Overall I think that OP's suggestion makes sense. Creating temporary blind resistance (say 33% stackable blind duration after 2nd blind which lasts say 60s (no refreshing, but each blind case retains it's own cooldown)) should basically cover all the cases of bully squads while basically not changing anything for regular gameplay (except some rare cases).
But please explain why you cannot o that with one, or even two, spaced out blinds? Why should a chase last an eternity to the point a Killer cannot catch you, do you think being blinded when coming out of the stun animation is fun for that player? You already have perks that give a haste boost, perks that blind the Killer to Auras, and other perks that waste time. Do we really need this mechanic still? No.
What if the Killer has sensitivity to these blinds? Why on earth do chain blinds need to exist outside of a chase at all? I have never seen the need. I agree tem blind resistance is probably best for this sort of issue though, and agree with you on that much.
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The problem is, the game fundamentally rewards winning at all costs, because the only way a win counts is if YOU escape (not even the team) or if the Killer 3-4ks. The Killer is, literally, rewarded for playing super ruthless and tunnelling and pushing for a 3-4k every time. Because that is what the game says a "win" is. It's also what the community says a "win" is. This holds true for Survivors as well, genrush happens because the game says a Survivor win is ONLY when you escape through the gates.
Is this in the spirit of the game? I don't think it is. I think it's time for a broader win condition definition, as well as a much easier way to earn emblems so it doesn't feel like you have to dominate to get anything done or anything of value. Everyone likes to win; if BHVR wants this game to be casual it needs to be more accepting of casual wincon definitions like 8-hooking, doing all the totems, going for flashlight blinds, etc.
Ironically, I felt a lot more like I was still encouraged to try again when we had that bug a few years ago where the defeat sound was the same as the win sound.
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@Rulebreaker said:
We're not but we kinda get why some are. Like LockerLurk above said some killers are more accessible than others. A casual person might simply want to stab people as legion over having to micro manage Hux especially if they only have so much time to play in the day. Why spend your limited time on possibly frustrating matches trying to learn complicated when simple easy death is readily available?
Sometimes I do not always want to play Dredge. I appreciate that other Killers bring different things to the table. Oddly I've been enjoying learning Ghostface - I just wish he had a few tweaks.
Personally if I want to turn my brain off I use Trapper or Wraith, so simple isn't bad. I just think all Killers should be accessible at all levels of play, and should offer decent results at all levels. I am tired of this endless battle of tierlists and power levels and in fact, think tierlists are a bad thing for the community overall. But that's another discussion.Also, "Simple Easy Death" would be an amazing title for an album. Look for Entity and the Killers next Gold Record to drop early 2025! ;)
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Well, there are cases to leave a Survivor down for a long time sometimes, but there is no reason that slugging everyone at 5 gens or letting people bleed out for four minutes needs to exist. I think the bleedout timer needs to be reduced to 2 minutes and we need an anti 4 man slug mechanic. Giving a shorter bleedout makes downs actually worth a damn in adding Killer pressure while also not being too long if someone does become slugged, and having an anti-4slug mechanic allows for comebacks if bad actors do happen. At the least do something like AFC for people who down then hump Survivors…
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We saw how badly a comeback mechanic would work in 2v8, these mechanics punish the other side doing their job too well and are not fair to anyone. The issue isn't one-sided games, but how frequent those can be.
What the game needs is better MMR balance and a much broader definition of what a win is. It should be based on how much you help the team, not on escapes. And it should be based on hooks, not on kills. The current emblem system and win cons are much too narrow and reward sweating, not playing. BP gain for Survivors is a pointless fraction of what Killers get. The fact it's harder to pip up every single grade increase is outdated and makes no sense, and simply is not needed when all Grade shows is how much you have played - pipping up should be as easy as breathing because Grades are not a useful, functional mechanic but just another BP investment sink. Frankly, emblems shouldn't be hard to achieve at all.
Maps are also still an issue, in the OTHER direction this time. Some lack resources, and some still have way too many. Low-mobility Killers struggle to compete even on small maps if there are too many resources, but shrinking map size overall doesn't help them and just makes it harder for Survivors to handle stronger Killers due to a lack of resources. Any and all Killers that lack map mobility must be given a bit more mobility, either with the much-maligned added haste mechanic or something else. You cannot keep expecting Trapper and Doctor to compete on maps that Xenomorph and Singularity can compete on, it just isn't possible. Perhaps changing tile spawn type or resource spawns per Killer would help? Do you really need infinity pallets against a Ghostface, or stronger tiles against a Legion? I don't think you do; similarly how do you expect Survivors to do anything against a Dredge or Chucky if there's not enough strong tiles to make tunnelling on these Killers more difficult?
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I think people just don't want the game to be too complex, yes. This is why sometimes, simple but weak characters are popular. Just look at how accessible Killers like Legion, Ghostface, Myers are. Now compare this to Killers like Blight, Pinhead, Sadako, Freddy, Dredge. These characters require more return on investment. Also, see how strong Singularity is, but notice he's also a rare pick. He's a very complex Killer, and requires time to learn.
The general gist seems to be, the more complex the Killer is, the more powerful people want them to be.
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@Philscooper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866691#Comment_3866691
the system would already be an incentive to make people play less popular killers
plus adding a bp bonus to anything killer does would just make the killer queue times even longer for everyone involved
thats why the bp bonus in the loppy is mostly survivor. (atleast in my region n mmr)The only way to incentivize playing weaker or less popular Killers is if those Killers get buffs or changes that make them fun and useful. But Survivors do not like that, and get upset when either happens, so either way someone will be upset.
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@Oputeeva said:
I agree, reworked killers are always overbuffed, oh, it's a pity that DBD is turning into even more of a killer-side game, no one is interested in the fun of the survivors
Then they can tone them down later? I fail to see the issue.
If a Killer is too strong on rework, the Devs will nerf them later. We have seen them do it with Dracula, Chucky, and Sadako. They will do it for Freddy if he is too much.
There is nothing wrong with a) admitting the game is not about Survivors being in power and hasn't been for a while, b) Killers being made stronger. If anything, it means now the Devs can give Survivors stronger perks later down the line when everything is patched up again, do you think we'd have gotten stuff like Shoulder the Burden if Killers never got buffed to be able to handle that?
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Frankly neither is the issue of slugging, tunnelling or camping. But yet we hear people complain about the slugging epidemic. Slugging is problematic and the worst kinds of it desperately need a fix but it's hardly an epidemic. Let's not forget that some slugging happens accidentally because of lack of communication in SoloQ as well, or because of bad Survivor plays. It's not one-sided.
Something not happening a majority of games is still problematic, and there are in fact Survivor teams that do come into games intending to mess with Killers and ruin their night. Just like there's Killers who go in looking to ruin Survivors' nights.
This is a symptom of the game being too frustrating for too many people, and a bad player problem. Not a Killer problem or a Survivor problem.
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We don't know and should not speculate until this becomes live. If it is too much it will be toned down.
The Freddy rework looks very good and gives me hope for other languishing and legacy Killers, it alongside the Myers, Sadako, and Pig updates are proof that M1s can be updated and made to work even with simple kits for the modern DBD experience. "But Pinhead is too finicky" and "but Ghostface is simple and always doomed to weakness" is no longer an excuse and I look forward to seeing what will happen next, especially for Killers like Legion that badly need an overhaul.
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I have the opposite issue and maybe it's due to who I play as Killer. I simply prefer M1s and pseudo-M2s, and it's like I need to 4k all the time or I never hit Iri or sometimes even get past gold. But if I SWF up and slack off as Surv even if I lose, I still easily climb into Iri until I get hardstuck at Iri II.
This has to do with pips, emblems, and grading just being a crappy system in need of updates overall. Rework emblems and make pipping not get harder and harder per Grade, since Grades just show how often you play. Reward people for playing nicer and playing more often, so we don't need to always sweat to Escape or 4k just to get to the next Grade. I don't understand why a progressive grading difficulty curve is still in the game at all, we have no depips so shouldn't this be the next functional step especially since Grades don't have any correlation to MMR anymore?
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You're not supposed to get rid of the Killer, you're supposed to try and do your best to not be caught by him in the first place.
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I don't see why it's still possible in 2025 to stun the Kille,r then blind them the second they come out of the animation. What purpose does doing that really serve except to annoy the player? It should have some form of cooldown between stuns and blinds as an immunity meter, say about 5 seconds after coming from the animation?
Stun and blind immunity for a limited time after the Killer has been hit by a stun or blind once just to prevent these chain stun-blind or chain blind scenarios would be fair, because there is never a situation you ever, ever need to blind then blind again, or stun into a blind. There simply isn't a good tactical reason this is in the game, I cannot think of one thing you can do with two blinds or stuns that you can't do with just one.
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I mean I wouldn't mind either way if we had a slider that turned these Killers into inhuman monsters instead or something, it doesn't affect me because I do not have these.
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An addon being stronger on one kind of map is like a Killer, Perk, or tactic being stronger on one kind of map: Not an issue.
Myers is not an issue because he's stronger indoors.
Aura perks aren't issues just because they are better indoors.
This Pig addon is not an issue just because it works better indoors.
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I think Finesse is okay, it's more Lithe being the issue IMHO. Too overused and it over-buffs bad Loopers.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866119#Comment_3866119
About the Plague Mori, why don't you turn head away from the screen and unplug the sound and plop fingers in your ears?
Brother, I should not be expected to leave the room every time something I dislike appears on the screen. Would you tell people who were motion sick against Clown's older gas effects to "turn their head away from the screen and unplug the sound and plop fingers in their ears"? I would rather allow her to ensure she kills me second to last, or simply ensure she does not get the chance to Mori me. She gets the same exact result, she still gets her Kill and she probably gets the Mori on someone else in a round that is most likely already over when there's only 2 people left at 2-3 gens. The result is the exact same for everyone involved, my discomfort is simply lessened if I do this.
Please don't be this tonedeaf. Please. There are people with emetophobia, there are people that recovered from eating disorders. It goes deeper than just "turn off and leave", by the time you see it happen it's already a problem.
Why do I have to suffer and do something inconvenient others don't have to just because you want to see your Mori? Why can't YOU just watch it on Youtube or something?
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866141#Comment_3866141
Sorry but I don't think removing the 4% from the first struggle phase is not going to fix this, it prolongs the process of people giving up but it doesn't prevent it. The same as matchmaking penalties for DCing don't work, they just encourage people to give up in ways to avoid the penalty.
Of course I agree fun is subjective but when certain killers or builds result in the vast majority of players giving up, there is objectively a problem there that needs to be addressed.
While maybe not the most elegant solution, I do think nerfing them into the ground to reduce their pick rate is still an effective way to reduce the issue.
Then you also agree nerfing perks into the ground that annoy Killers like Head On, Blast Mine, Flashbang (which is still bugged) and even the harmless Mirrored Illusion (it could annoy someone somewhere!) is the proper response should many Killers complain about those, right? If you disagree that would make you a hypocrite, because surely Killer fun and lack of annoyance is just as valid as Survivor annoyance, right?
I mean, to say otherwise would be a Survivor-sided bias. Just as if I had said that we need to nerf all gen perks Survivors have because gens go too fast would be a Killer-sided bias.
Nuking things we don't like isn't an answer nor should it be a longterm solution, because if we normalize that I don't think you will like what some Killers will do the second Blast Mine is seen if that becomes too annoying. Asking for nerfs because "annoying" isn't a solution and I think you know it.
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Some. Some tactical use of a down or an immediate or accidental tunnel is necessary and/or possible in some situations as an optimal, intended play.
But slugging everyone at 5 gens, leaving people to bleed out for four minutes, and being able to immediately tunnel one person out of the game with no repercussions is not and should not be allowed nor are they the intended use of these mechanics.
We have solutions for 3gens, face camping, proxying to a point, and tunnelling already (perks). We have nothing for meaningless slugs that accomplish nothing but a boring game over in five seconds when the scenario isn't the fault of Survivor altruism, but of the Killer going ham from the word go.
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Because too many people liked to abuse unhookable spots and sabo-wiggle builds on maps that would always guarantee a Killer could never hook them, to the point it was actually affecting the quality of the game and genuinely unfun, forcing Killers to slug in situations they probably didn't even want to in the first place. You think slugging is awful now? It was genuinely so so so much worse to be slugged in a corner for four minutes until bleedout because the killer got a bad map and had no hooks nearby, so they had no choice but to bleed you. This was unfun for both sides, the Killer had to wait for you to bleed and Survivors had to wait to bleed out doing nothing. It was abusable, it hurt weaker Killers for no good reason over stronger ones, it was cheap, it was anti-fun, and it wasn't in the spirit of the game.
It was literally as unfun as being slugged for the 4k or a four man slug at five gens is right now. Yes, really. That annoying. I had a match during the peak of this meta on pre-rework Haddonfield as my main Dredge before it got its update. No lockers, no power, and horrendous hook spawns. And I got a group like this. I got 1k and had an incredibly, incredibly miserable match, because I couldn't properly use my power or do anything but proxy the hook, because there was nowhere else to hook ANYONE, leaving the sabo person free to come in, sabo my only hooks, force me to slug in a corner, counter with Exponential, and all while gens were being unprotected with no means for me to do anything about it. I had no ability to pressure and it was just. Not. Fun.
And this scenario happened over, and over, and over, and over again with any Killer lacking mobility or with conditional mobility, like Dredge, Sadako, Trapper, Ghostface, Myers, Legion, etc. The only play in these situations for these Killers was to proxy camp, slug, and pray. And that just really sucked for everyone except the trolls who liked to abuse this sort of setup.So BHVR fixed hook spawns, made some set ones, and made hooks respawn so this could never happen again. It seems to have mostly fixed the issue and taken a lot of the teeth out of the old sabo-wiggle petrified oak on Ormond bully strategy that ran rampant up until then. I certainly never see it anymore and when they do try it, they crumble very fast in a four man slug because it just isn't very helpful anymore. To compensate, sabotaging is faster with certain toolboxes and toolbox addons, in case you do want to sabo.
But the Killer is supposed to be able to counterplay what Survivors do, just as they're meant to be able to counterplay every Killer (I argue some Killers even need more obvious and easily understood counterplay). So that is why hooks were fixed this way. To add counterplay to annoying unfun strategies and to make sabo have back and forth like intended.
And I would much, MUCH rather perks like Boil Over and Sabotage were useless than go back to that. Because I hated being the SoloQ lumped in with turds abusing this just as much as I hated being the Killer subjected to this. It was. Not. Fun.
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@DancewithmeKate said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865523#Comment_3865523
If too many people are giving up then yeah nuking is good option. This game has 2 sides after all.
No it wouldn't. Nuking a Killer into unusability because they're annoying is as unfair as nuking say… Flashbang into unusability because it's annoying. I don't think you would enjoy it if fun silly perks like Head On, Flashbang, Blast Mine, Mirrored Illlusion, Bardic Inspiration, or Diversion were nerfed just because Killers found those too annoying would you? I sure would hate that, I love trying to use Mirrored Illusion to mess with people when I play Survivor! I like whipping out my lute playing Bardic Inspiration! I like trying to use Pebble for fun! And I like trying to make Flashbang and Head On plays, those are fun. Those things are fun.
Similarly, a Killer you find annoying someone else may find fun. Lots of people think running around as Legion is fun. Lots of people think being able to 99 someone and drop them from an ambush as Myers or Ghostface is fun. Some people think Silent Chainsaw Billy is fun, and some people think that Pinhead is really fun to launch chains and juggle the box with. And many, many people find Huntress orbitals fun. All of these are mechanics someone somewhere - even a lot of people here, find annoying while others find them fun.
Why would we want to nerf the things that make the game fun for people just because you might find them annoying? Is that really fair? And if you do think it's fair to nuke Killers Survivors fund unfun… well, what annoying things on Survivor side are you willing to sacrifice in the name of Killers' fun?
No, the answer to the give up epidemic isn't, it simply is not to nuke annoyances into the ground. That removes diversity. That removes interactivity. And I'm gonna respond to it the same way as I would someone asking for a Blast Mine nerf for being annoying - by laughing you out of the room, because it's a laughable position to say we need to fix an issue that affects everyone by nuking things only some people find annoying to the detriment of the game.
The solution to the give up epidemic is something we all know has to be done but nobody wants to admit. The solution is simply to remove the 4% unless you have a perk for it or it's endgame collapse. That would fix the issue way more than nuking something someone else finds fun just because people are too petty to admit they want to ruin the game for everyone else just because they find a thing mildly annoying. They did that to Skull Merchant, yet people STILL DC against her for no reason. Utterly none, just because she's Skull Merchant. How on earth is that even fair?
The Skurchent gutting solution cannot and should not ever, ever be the solution to any of this. Ever. To say otherwise betrays an opinion that you want the game to become more bland, more boring, and less interesting for everyone. It fixes nothing, and creates less fun for everyone. -
Because I want my unhook and attempted safe save points. Because that's more fun than hiding in a corner waiting for hatch while my friend dies in 2 minutes and I do nothing. And because I don't give an utter toss about winning as Survivor, and neither should anyone else in this game (that goes for Killer side too, who actually cares about your winstreak or getting a 4k anyway? Like who actually cares?).
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It's probably just gonna put the bar under the Mend Self statement, not actually remove the timer or pause it when in chase…
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@TwinsMain2004 said:
i used to think most people were probably at high mmr
but now i actually think it's an actual pretty small % of the player base
i might not even be in it or at least not a the highest possible
Based on watching some content creators i actually think only a few are in the top MMR bracket as well
My reason for this is that you never really see people like scott jund who claims to be high mmr i rarley ever watch his killer gameplay and think "wow those survivors are strong / know what there doing" they usually seem very weak in comparison to what other creators play agasint
if we look at EU for a second
Otz never seems to play against other popular streamers / comp players that often if at all for example since MMR came out i think he and tru3 faced off like 2-3 times only
And you call me a tru3 glazer but he legit seems to go against former and current comp players near enough every game since he checks profiles alot
Not to mention Hens333 and tru3 seem to get matched up with each other quite often in comparison to other streamers, Same with knightlight he used to alot at least
Now take into consideration how bad the average player is compared and how much better / above average these streamers are it can start to paint a pretty clear picture on what mmr actually is
Quick side note that MMR will always try to match you up with players at your level
BUT it will not force it if match making time would be affected by a good margin
I like to call this "The Buffer"
Anyway I truly think that around 85-95% of people are in low-mid MMR and High MMR is a more exclusive club then people would like to admit
This feels very true. I used to believe I was top MMR. Then I got even better and some problem perks got nerfed, and I realized how crap most of this "top MMR" really was. I'm more likely in mid to low MMR.
Good. I don't want to be in the oasis of sweat that High MMR probably is, I'm totally fine down here with my Survivors I can choose to go easy or hard on depending on how hard they play.
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There are some tools in the game used to push gens to insane degrees to the point some low mobility Killers really cannot compete above a certain level against a team using these items with proper coordination.
But most of the listed perks just aren't the tools that are problematic. At all.
I do think maybe Quick Gambit should not stack easily, especially because everyone can decide to run it making chasing ANYONE a liability.
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@TheWheelOfCheese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865207#Comment_3865207
This belies a more individualist and selfish interpretation of the survivor role. Yes, being killed is considered a loss for the purposes of MMR, but it does not have to be how the player defines a loss.
When playing survivor I consider a 3-out a win even if I'm the one that died. I hardly think I'm alone in this.
But that's also exactly how the game calculates Survivor wins, it doesn't care about the team escaping. It only cares if you do. If you don't, MMR goes down. It really is that binary.
Killer meanwhile is less binary, but that leads to extreme imbalance depending on the Killer and depending on the MMR, server, time of day, etc.
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The simple answer is this: Because the game still says the only marker of whether or not you win is based on how many Survivors you killed in the round, just as it unfairly says the only marker of a win is whether or not you Escape.
But that has nothing to do with skill, effort, or rewarding good play. It doesn't reward a Trapper who played fair and got everyone to death hook but lost last minute. It doesn't reward a Nurse who chooses to be ultra fair and goes for spreading hooks. It doesn't reward a Ghostface who bothers to use his power, it doesn't reward someone for not being a jerk, and it doesn't reward Killers who just wanna play kindly because they know odds are stacked against Survivors.
The only people this system rewards are the most ruthless, brutal players who grind to Iri I every month both sides by bringing the sweatiest meta, strongest Killer, or most OP item in. And it leaves everyone else who wants a more casual feel in the dust.
We shouldn't have to feel like the only value in a round happens if we slug for a 4k. We shouldn't have to feel like we're failures if we get anything less than a 3k or an Escape through the gate. We shouldn't be encouraged to tunnel people out of the game early. We also shouldn't be encouraged to genrush to avoid those scenarios and stomp all over any Killer who wants to play nice.This game is intended to be a casual horror tag versus game. But the community, and the game itself, just does not treat it as casual, because only comp play is ever rewarded by the game AND the community both. We are told that winning is all that matters.
And that's the answer you're looking for. But I'm afraid it does not come without Killer complaints, because most people playing the game play both Survivor and Killer. Every complaint coming from such a well-rounded player is, by necessity, a Killer complaint. Please don't make this issue that affects everyone an us vs. them thing.
Because it really isn't.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864363#Comment_3864363
Yes, we know there are plenty of instances where a Killer slugs as a strategy for pressure, or in response to sabo squads, but there have been enough instances where the Killer bleeds out just to be a jerk. Whatever the devs come out with, I'm sure it'll help to reduce the latter without affecting the former too much, as was the case with basekit Borrowed Time, the anti-facecamp mechanic, the 8-gen regression limit, etc.
I'm really curious in actual data on how often Killers do this tactically versus just to be a jerk, aside from anecdotal evidence. I certainly am not playing this way even as the weakest Killers in my roster. I could easily do it as Trapper with the right setup, and I still do not play this way as Trapper.
So what changed to create this uptick? There must be a reason besides Killer players all just being jerks, after all. Something else must be encouraging it, because it just was not this common before.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864374#Comment_3864374
This could only work for the very last Mori tho, I think it sounds incredibly petty to not be able to sit through 10 sec of animation.
If we are being petty, idd like to get the time back I have walked to the exit gates to push Survivors out and end the game.
I don't see why not.
I think that's fair, but then again doesn't it seem pointless to let it be for the last guy and nobody else?
I don't like Plague's Mori. I never wanna die last against her, and I never want her to Mori me, I genuinely get nauseous and can't handle it, it ruins my night and my games. If I can't win against her, I almost always try to be sure I'm second to last to die, or at least try to make sure my team doesn't unhook me towards the end JUST so I do not get Mori'd by her. That is how bad it affects me. I'd gladly take an option to skip her Mori every time.
But for me as Killer, a Mori is special and I want to give it to the person I find most deserving of seeing the cool animation. It's meant to be a cool reward that you got the special animation in my eyes, not a taunt and certainly not a means to kick the other side when they are down nor a victory dance. It's not in any way toxic ot the same as humping ot teabagging are, it's just a special animation you got to see as a reward for being the last one out. Maybe being Mori'd should GIVE some points, since you got the coolest kill? Would that take the sting from it? -
@BroRespectTheBoop said:
I took a few weeks off from DBD and my very first game back today was a Vecna who decided to slug for the 4k immediately at the start of the game. I dont care if you do it at the end of a match, but the people that do it right from 5 gens, why?
I have never, even as a Killer Main, ever understood slugging at five gens. What satisfaction do you even get from a round ending that fast? If you do it on purpose, why do it when it doesn't even pip you or reward you to win so fast? If it happens on accident, how on earth did the MMR mess up so bad it puts actual babies with your higher relative skill level?
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@alpha5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864364#Comment_3864364
It does not matter what individual players think when they 4man slug or just slug for the 4k. In case of the 4man slug it might just be the most convenient to let them all bleedout. Either you want to do something about potentially half the game being dead time or you don't. The most recent survey says they are looking into it but its definition-matching does not fill me with hope.
I'm sorry but I refuse to be another jaded DBD player who only ever wants to see the worst in my opponent just because the opponent wants to win. And I refuse to need to win so hard, it ruins the game for everyone else.
It absolutely does matter.
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There's a number of Killers that need addon updates and buffs. Pyramid Head. Pinhead. Ghostface.
There's also a number of Killers that just need bugfixes overall, or more in their kits.
I think most perks are OK on Surv side (some could get a slight pass, mostly ones you never see that are also very weak), but I think there's many Killer perks that could be buffed to help with issues like gen repair, gen speed, chase for M1s, info that is not aura based, rewarding hooks, strengthening hex perks, etc.
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I really want to see what else they change. Badham maps and Swamps all need balance or a rework or graphical updates, and some Killers could stand more help or addon passes yet. Also they need to look at certain glitches, the audio issue with flashbangs hasn't been fixed and there's still issues with some Killers' powers being janky.
Excited to see Freddy's rework too.
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The solution is to make hooking preferred and not punished by a million perks for it, and then we can talk about an antislug mechanic.
For antislug, the solution is, quite simply, a faster bleedout or a one-time pickup with endurance if most of the team is slugged this way.
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They aren't in any way similar so no. I don't think so.
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My goal is to learn some new Killers and try to take the game less seriously overall. I really need to.
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The game has been extremely rough for me right now too, I gave up and kinda just decided to try for whomever I can Kill or as many points as I can before I inevitably die as Survivor.
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What were his perks? Maybe you had an Impossible Skillcheck Doc.
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I don't have an issue with Moris and have never seen them as toxic in any way, ever, at all. However I do think people should be able to skip Moris if they really want to, just offer it as a slider setting. I don't see why not.
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I really am craving Killer again though, I've been on a break and kinda just… didn't play any Killer over the last few months. Been thinking of picking up a new Killer that is actually hard to win with too just for the challenge, I'm thinking of trying some other M1s out for a while that aren't just Dredge and don't have anything fancy. Myers is looking fun lately.
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It is strong but it's very niche and requires high coordination to make it that strong. The perk can make or break games, but you need communication and most players really are not in SWFs with comms.
And those that are in SWFs with comms are usually idiots like me, who just get onto Discord and shriek into the mic at each other discussing the latest films while we get destroyed by a Huntress who feels like she's in the battle of her life.
Honestly too, I think it's better if perks that are very strong are also super niche. Potential Energy takes actual talent and skill to use right. Weaving Spiders is powerful but also takes specific setups and actual skill as a SWF to use right. I think Shoulder is in the same category and that is perfectly fine. I'd maybe like to see more Killers be this sort of "strong in the right hands with the right skill level" stage too, I think some of the stronger ones are too easy to use well and some of the weaker ones way too hard to use well.
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Run Lightborne.
Also Pokemon has never been balanced, just breed powerhouses, stack the right items, feed the right vitamins to a mon with the right temperment, and stomp everyone and anyone. Do I need to even mention the FEAR Rattata?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864125#Comment_3864125
I'm all for reworking Grades a bit, but I'm not convinced that's the reason killers do this. I think it's a power trip thing mostly. BP carrots to incentivize player behavior historically haven't worked.
Granted, the DbD community isn't really known for being logical, so I could see how some killers would think extending a trial for 5+ minutes over a single pip is worth it over simply playing more games and stacking 3ks with some 4ks.
There surely is a reason people bleed out for 4ks besides "all Killers are jerks that want to ruin the Survivor experience", because Killer players are also humans.
If there really is an epidemic of this going on, and most games are ending in actual 4 man bleedouts, we need to ask what is making Killers do this. Bad behavior doesn't happen in a vacuum. With all the stuff in the game that encourages not doing this, why are Killers actually doing this?
I'm just not convinced it's the trite answer of "all the Killer players want to have a power trip" and that's it. There's something else going on encouraging this behavior. We should find out what, and solve it, instead of everyone flinging accusations of being toxic at each other and demanding BHVR fix it with another bandaid. Because sticks historically haven't worked either, do you really handle Decisive Strike by not tunnelling or do you juts tunnel through it anyway because that works? Did all the Killers suddenly stop proxy camping just because anti facecamp was added? Of course not, some learned this was preferable and did it more, and some have just always done this. It didn't really stop anything that Survivors are frustrated about, just the worst kind of camping (and similarly an anti-slug system should therefore only punish the worst kind of slugging, this kind).
It could even be as simple as Killers misreading Survivor play as more sweaty than it is, or more annoying than it is, and doing this out of frustration. If that's why, then the solution is to make the game less frustrating. It could be that hooking is discouraged, or Killers feel it's discouraged. It could even be that the game focuses too much on encouraging a 4k by any means necessary - if it IS that, clarifying what a win is could fix that, as could making a 2-3k feel as satisfying as a 4k. I certainly am fine with anything between a 2-4k myself, and I'd be encouraged to go for it more if there were some bonus or benefit to not playing as hard as I can to dominate other than feel good vibes.
But I don't think it's just that "Killers like to power trip". Not by a longshot, because I know plenty of Survivor Mains who also like to powertrip against baby Killers. You can see evidence of this on Youtube titled stuff like "Bullying baby Killers with my flashlight squad!" and "this build makes Killers cry!".
@Rulebreaker I think you're right, there is no clean solution and the only real option BHVR has is to ONLY punish the worst kind of slugging: bleeding everyone out for four minutes when three or more are on the ground. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that is slugging. You can debate if slugging for a 4k when two people are left is a true toxic slug or just tactics, you can debate if slugging someone who has DS to avoid is is toxic or a tactic, and you can debate if altruism getting many Survivors downed at once is toxic or tactical. But you cannot debate that someone slugging everyone at 4 or 5 gens is being tactical, that is honestly actually just being a jerk to be a jerk. -
@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864121#Comment_3864121
They are allowed to 4k, but bleeding everyone out for 4+ minutes is an unnecessary waste of time, especially for the Survivors who can do nothing but wait it out.
I agree, but unless we have a stopwatch or the footage how do we know it was really a four-person bleedout done to waste time? It's literally one person's (potentially exaggerated due to frustration with the game) word over the other's. Only the person commenting on it is here. We have one side of the story. It's smart to consider both instead of framing the other side as just wanting to be a jerk.
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That wouldn't make sense because the point of Killer is to injure down and hook people. And as others have said it promotes tunnelling when done this way. It'd make more sense to just buff the perk and not have it work with Legion or Plague's powers the way it does.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Jumping back in to beg the devs to fix this garbage. I'm so unbelievably sick of slugging for the 4k. It's so dumb and it's a waste of everyone's time. Nobody should have to concede to end the game in a timely manner. It's quite literally one side of the playerbase doing this because they want to win harder. It's not a both sides issue. Manage the community. Fix the mechanic. Do something. Please.
The easiest way to fix slugging for 4ks AND trying to gengrind and leave in under 10 minutes, would be to totally rework emblems and make it so Grades truly mean what the community thinks they are: nothing but a marker of time. Right now, a 4k is the difference in Gold or Iri between pipping and not pipping, encouraging this sort of sweaty play.
If BHVR and the community want to have no 4k slugs, the game needs to not encourage always going for a 4k like it currently does. You cannot blame the players for doing what the game says they're intended to do.