LockerLurk
LockerLurk
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@[Deleted User] said:
I like perks that increase the pace of the trial and lead to more engagement. That goes for either side. Most trials are too slow IMO.
Conversely, I wouldn't mind the deletion or rework of any perk that leads to longer/more time spent holding M1 and watching a bar fill. Base 90 second gens feel awful. I'm absolutely not a game dev, but my DbD pipe dream is some slowdown moved to basekit and all slowdown moved off of perks. Slowdown is normalized and standardized. Less variance.
I prefer games in the 5-8 minute range. 12+ is way too long.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of Killers can't do much in 5-8 minutes. Not everyone is Nurse, Dredge, or Dracula.
Games should be 10-15 minutes long, period. Any shorter is too Survivor sided and any longer is too Killer sided.
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Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad idea.
No generator should ever be worth two generators, and no generators should ever be in the basement thus forcing Killers to always waste time patrolling there. All that would happen is that a few Survs would hide in the lockers down there from the word go and make it so they ALWAYS got the super generator. Plus how would it interact with perks like Weaving Spiders and addons like BNP?
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It's not against the rules of the game and you cannot be banned for it, but lobby dodging can mess up the matchmaking for everyone else in the lobby. This is true regardless of who dodges, Killer or Survivor. This is why if that happens to you, the entire Lobby should just back out and dodge Killer included, so MMR can be recalculated properly, that is if you care about that.
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@Orvarihusklumpen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872100#Comment_3872100
Every single iteration of Chaos shuffle has been like this on both sides, sweaty that is. Killers get access to free tunneling since there is very little chance for a survivor of getting an anti-tunnel perk in Chaos Shuffle, killers also can get free slugs because it's Chaos Shuffle and Survivors bring toolboxes to rush out gens.
It really is no surprise when you don't remove the ability to combo super powerful addons or items from either side to min-max even with random perks, and you allow map offerings in the game, while meanwhile every other decision BHVR has made tells Survivors to push gens as fast as possible and Killers to tunnel slug camp all day every day if they want to win (because all their perks are nerfed or kinda pointless when Survivors have nothing to do but push gens all round).
It gets so boring for me pushing gens so fast all the time, I don't even bring commodious boxes or gen perks anymore. I'd rather lose and enjoy the chase than be done in 8 minutes and feel nothing despite winning. And it's also the same reason I don't bring a ton of heavy gen control as Killer anymore, I think the strongest thing I use these days is Grim Embrace and only on M1s. Certainly not more than two gen perks total, there's no point to everyone being dead in five seconds.
My point being, that winning in this game gets suuuuuuper boring once you've figured out the strategy of how to do it all the time. Either side.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
Anddddd here we go again! Some screenshots of the match I just played.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/96YJK5C2RWNI/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/S7TJ7SEISBGT/image.png
As you can see, Pinhead decided to slug from the onset of the match. And before you say, "But you're running Breakout! You forced him to slug." No I didn't. It's Chaos Shuffle and I didn't attempt to do any sabo antics, nor was I near my other teammates when they got downed to attempt to use Break Out (which you can see above).
The only person who Pinhead didn't slug was the Kate who rolled No Mither. He ended up getting Kate out the match with 3 gens remaining after which we were basically just trading who was on the ground while trying to crank the generators in any spare time we had. We got down to 1 generator left but unfortunately Meg bled out so it was down to just me and Alan. Alan managed to put up an AMAZING chase (props to him) and I popped the final gen. He went down a couple seconds after I popped it and Pinhead beelined straight to me and there wasn't much I could really do.
So I go down and instead of just hooking me and ending it, Pinhead decides to stand over me swinging and launching his chains at me right up until I'm 1 second away from bleeding me out. At which point he picks me up, hooks me, and proceeds to hit me on hook.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/SJN49ZDXYNV8/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/74DAFW6YAW5W/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/IXK9GV4YBFDR/image.png
And that's EXACTLY how I know this isn't just about "playing to win", "playing strategically", "being competitive" or however you want to spin it. We're both on the ground with hooks readily available. It's not about the fact that we lost. That's fine. We might've gotten at least 1 person out if I played better. I can accept that. The problem is that instead of just taking the win, these people feel the need to drag it out as long as possible and rub it in the whole while. It's malicious behaviour that needs to be addressed.
I understand your frustration and I also hate when this happens to me. But respectfully friend… you have Breakout, Tenacity, and Dance With Me in your builds here. And Killers have frustrations and for lack of a better word, "trauma" from bad past rounds where perks like these gave them an unfun match and a rough time. Breakout because it often is run by sabo squads who make it hard to hook with it. Tenacity for the same reason and also because people crawl to comp corners to waste time with it. Dance With Me because, for as weak as it is, some people struggle really hard in chase and find the perk annoying, or may think it's being run with Head On because it's common to go Dance With Me into a locker for Head On to get cheeky stuns, and some people hate that.
Just like you don't know what a Killer may or may not do in a round, the Killer doesn't understand where four random Survs are coming from, yourself included, so what will they think if they see perks like this in a round? They might call back to a time someone with those perks used them to be annoying, used them in a sabo bully squad, they may even be old enough to remember when some perks were so powerful they enabled ACTUAL for real ye olde bully squads. And that pain sticks with you no matter how many times you say you're over it. That sort of loss feels unfair, you feel outperked not out skilled, and when you're newer it's discouraging. But as you get better at the game, that doesn't mean you don't still feel annoyed by these perks.
It may seem silly to you, but it's true. I personally have hangups with blinding mechanics and really hated Blast Mine when it first came out. The first time I encountered it the whole team had it, and I was in the round just vibing as Wraith. I didn't have fun that round, I didn't win, and it sucked because every five seconds any time I simply tried to do what the game told me to, I got blinded and Lightburned out of my power. That isn't fun, that wasn't fun, I felt mocked at the time. Of course now, I know how to handle that perk. But I still don't like the perk, because I had past bad experiences with it that just really stuck with me. That may sound really silly to you, but think about how many times you have had a perk a Killer has used that isn't all that consequential that YOU just irrationally don't like. For example… Franklin's Demise, which really doesn't do all that much in the round except lose your item. Or Lightborne when you're trying to go for flashlight blinds. Or maybe the Killer happens to have an annoying mechanic like Skull Merchant used to, so now because a baby p0 Skurchent found out by total accident she could lock down generators and used it to win without really understanding why that's frustrating, you hate all Skurchents now. It could be the same here.
See, the Killer may not know you're SWF. The Killers MAY be slugging you because you look as though you have perks that line up with SWFs who are coordinated to run in for timed saves, because you keep causing them to drop other Survivors with Breakout, because you crawl off before they can hook you with Tenacity and look like you might be going to bleed out in a comp corner to make it harder to hook you, or because they may falsely think that you have ANOTHER sabo, wiggle, etc. perk in your loadout.
Killers don't know what you have before they see you. They can't see your perks before a round. They can't know why you run these perks. All they have is experiences where Survivors created unfun situations for them when those perks were run before, so now they just slug when they see these perks because they don't want to risk a stun, time wasted on a needless chase that you vanished from, or having to lug a Survivor from the corner they crawled into just to be petty and waste time. They don't know if you intend to annoy them with these perks, troll them with these perks, or just play the game with these perks because you like these perks. Think about how many judgement calls made in the moment that even you probably put on Killers who say… bring perks like Pain Res. But maybe they like Pain Res, or their Killer is slow and genuinely needs Pain Res for the pressure, or maybe Pain Res does have a good reason to be there because they like scourge hook builds, and yet… how many of us would be the first to call that Killer "sweaty" or "a meta slave" if they used it? What about if they're a Nurse and they just found out the synergy with her power, any different?
And those frustrations, I know you know this, don't stop because you randomly got the perks. Especially because Chaos Shuffle is a time when LOTS of Killer Players like to randomize who they play, try new Killers, learn Killers without caring about wins, and generally don't care as much about wins as you might think because they know odds are people don't have generator perks and they don't need to try as hard.
I'm not saying any of this makes it right. I'm not saying you deserve to be treated this way. He was definitely in the wrong, and certainly sweaty for no reason. But at some point, if you see a pattern where multiple different Killers ESPECIALLY M1s like Pinhead are doing this frequently EVERY ROUND even in normal games, I would strongly start to question if it's due to the perks or your playstyle.
I am so sorry the game gave you perks that made you look like you're here to cause problems. I know you're not, we all know you're not, I think that Pinhead knew you weren't - but remember, everyone's being sweaty this event. I actually just had a discussion with a random the other day because her and her TTV friend brought overpowered items and forced us all on Eyrie… in Chaos Shuffle. Yeah. A Survivor sided map, bringing in overly strong items the Killer had no real defence against because they KNEW they could push gens with no issue because there's probably no gen perks happening, instead of embracing the mode for the chaos it's intended to be and being more random and less sweaty. They had to win on stream for their followers that hard. Sadly, we got a pretty good Wesker, who frankly was as unhappy to see all this as I was, because I knew from the start their setup would make him nervous enough to being sweating.It really is both sides. Don't kid yourself.
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Pressure is anything that makes Survivors do anything other than be on gens.
Pinhead with Pentimento and Plaything? Pressure.
Trapper blocking areas and making them dangerous, forcing Survivors to walk rather than run? Pressure.
Ghostface having people possibly 99ed at any time and able to down them if they touch a gen he's near and don't keep moving? Pressure.
Houndmaster being able to send Snug to scout elsewhere while she scouts a different area? Pressure.
Dredge being able to teleport to lockers right near a generator tactically? Pressure.
Chase? Long Downs? Keeping an eye on a hook that is near a gen cluster that Survivors now HAVE to come to because the other gens are done? Getting rid of lots of resources? Pressure, pressure, pressure.
Every Killer has a different form of pressuring, and they can all work really well depending on the player; generally MOBILITY pressure is one of the strongest kinds, but all forms of pressure are still tools that get Survivors off of gens and engaged with something else. In fact the Killer just BEING there is pressure, so the best way for any Killer to Pressure is to find Survivors and engage with them. Some perks pressure other things too, like how gen perks pressure gens.
Pressure is also what Survivors can exert on the Killer, mostly only in the form of gens or a few niche perks. The other perks are more just there to save their skins and buy them time to do actual pressure. Chase is also for buying time for your team to do pressure.
If anyone is complaining about Killers and their intended playstyles, you can safely ignore them. Hate the game, not the player, if you don't like the way a Killer plays that is not the player's problem or even BHVR's problem. It's a perspective and an "I believe EVERY single Killer player ever is a sweaty no good poopy meanie butt! >:(" issue. Basically, it's a YOU issue if you complain about how Killers are intended to play.
This is also why tactics like tunnelling or slugging do not always work - those are very niche cases, you're not supposed to do those all the time or for very long because they are not just unfun, they're a two-edged sword: you are throwing away so much pressure on everyone else for the sake of that one Survivor. Yes, there are cases you may need to do this because a situation is spiraling out of control or you know you can get just this ONE person but not all of them, and yes, some Killers excel at these tools. But that's all they're supposed to be - tools, very blunt ones like a hammer or a mallet, not something fine-tuned to really put the screws on Survivors, because they can do as much harm to your game as they do help. So if your whole playstyle is to slug everyone at five gens… what will you do when the Survivors know how to play around that? If your whole tactic is to just tunnel the first person you see, ok, but what will you do when you pick someone who actually knows how to run a Killer for ages?
And no, Killer strength does NOT matter here either. Knowing what to do when is what counts. Playing a back-to-hook Nurse works great! Until you run into the team that can sabo-wiggle and use WGLF and all these perks that PUNISH returning to hooks, then you look at the Myers off in the corner who knows how to spread pressure and use his perks and power to his advantage and wonder how this "weak C tier" is doing so well but your "powerful S tier" can't hack it. The answer is… because experience and flexibility in playstyle, and knowing HOW to pressure in several ways, almost always wins more than just brute force in this game. It's not the easy way, but it is the best way, and it also means you won't skyrocket your MMR by sweating all over everyone until you only meet these nightmare SWFs that know how to snap your Killer in half.
The best Killers blend a mix of knowing how and when to use their power, how and when to spread pressure with their presence, and how and when to use brute force if they absolutely have to. They never just settle on one specific playstyle because one size doesn't fit all.
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@FMG15 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3874118#Comment_3874118
My point isn't to nerf them. My point is that if you implement basekit unbreakable, the perks that allow you to pick yourself up faster shouldn't be doing it anymore. Maybe unbreakable can allow you to be mroe silent while in the dying state or maybe it just should get something completely different, essentially a completely new perk. It's not about what the perks should do, it's about these perks becoming too strong with basekit unbreakable
Oh I see. I kinda like the idea of Unbreakable doing something with maybe the Broken effect instead, since I really like risky perks - like you become "Breakable" to gain the benefit of being "unbreakable" later, or maybe you pick yourself up once and become Broken but for the duration leave no scratch marks, grunts of Pain, or any blood drops until Broken wears off (once a round of course) similar to Off the Record sort of without the endurance. Or maybe, we can just scrap basekit Unbreakable and make Unbreakable have unlimited pickups, but they cause you to be Broken each time for so many seconds or it takes longer to pick up every time.
As per the faster pickup perks, maybe if Unbreakable is basekitted or made stronger, they can do something else on pickup - like when you are picked up it heals the other person a bit, or when you get up/are picked up it shows auras on something, or when you get up/are picked up it gives you a slight Haste for so many seconds, IDK. We already have perks for this though.
Let's say we did add basekit Unbreakable, unlimited basekit Unbreakable. I don't think that is the solution but if they went that route, then a lot of changes would need to be made. Here's how I'd make it fair:- You cannot use the pickup until you have been on the ground for 30 seconds, so the Killer gets to have some pressure. If after 30 seconds you have neither been healed nor hooked, you can use the basekit Unbreakable and get back up as an Injured Survivor. You recover at the same rate as a normal Survivor would (that is, it's not the sped-up version Unbreakable currently gives you), you can just choose to get up at the end once you're done instead of waiting to be healed. You do not receive Endurance or Haste if you do this, and using a self-pickup perk or item does not make it go faster or stack with this timer in any way. In addition, every time you use it, it takes 5 seconds longer to charge, so as to reduce the ability to just force the Killer to down you in a corner and leave or to make them play against shenanigans in "can't hook me" spots on maps.
- The self-pickup has a cooldown of 30 seconds. If you go down again, you do not instantly get to use the Unbreakable again, as this would create lose-lose scenarios that aren't fun. It needs to recharge before you can use it, just like a perk would. This means the Killer still has some pressure if they have to down someone and chase another Survivor or kick a gen, for example.
- As recompense for the Killer due to this, for every hook they get, the Survivors take 2 seconds longer to repair, heal, bless/cleanse totems, unlock chests, or recover with Basekit Unbreakable. And yes perks can stack with this. If the Killer purposefully spreads hooks, then this goes up to 3 seconds longer per hook. This means if the Killer always chooses to play nice, then hooking is incentivized a bit more than slugging is and nobody has to feel cheated out of their time with gens. I feel also that even though it means Killers can get up to a -30% or more debuff on gen speed over time, they have to work for it, plus I really think Survivors will be more than able to handle it with how many tools they have at their disposal to counter this. It will also help encourage Survivor engagement by making them consider resource management in a different way, or choose different playstyles by involving items and item-based builds, which may even reduce the "genrush effect" at the start of rounds since they may not just dump their toolbox on the first gen they see if they know they might need it later. It WOULD mean we have to adjust some perks, though. At the least, it will be much more interesting than the current meta!
- There is an Anti-slug Timer: If the Killer is within 16 m of you and is not chasing anyone, the timer goes up. It goes up faster the closer the Killer is to you. Other Survivors in the area halt the timer, as does someone breaking a hook in any way (sacrifices included), the Killer being stunned or blinded, or the Killer being forced to drop a Survivor (that they do not initiate). When the timer has filled, if the Killer is still in range of you, then you can pick yourself up and you get Endurance and a 5% Haste for 10 seconds. Then you become Exhausted for 10 seconds. This way, you have a chance to escape and it punishes Killers that decide to grief by humping Dying Survs.
- If at any point everyone still alive in the round is Downed and a) 0-1 gens are complete OR b) there are usable hooks within about 8 m of the Killer, an antigriefing timer begins. The Killer then has 60 seconds to begin hooking once this happens. If they hook anyone in that time frame, the timer pauses for everyone and the others get up as per the normal basekit Unbreakable (but with no extra benefits since the Killer is already wasting time hooking). However if the Killer still refuses to hook anyone after 60 seconds have elapsed, everyone instantly gets up at full health and has 100% Haste with 30 seconds of Endurance. Should the Killer decide to stand on top of ANYONE for longer than about 10 seconds while doing this, then after that 10 seconds everyone gets up and the same Survivor buffs apply. This way the most toxic kind of slugging is punished but people who just trip and fall into a 4 man slug because of Survivor altruism, Killers who have a playstyle that is very good with slugging (like Twins), and Killers that are punishing Sabo plays aren't punished for playing the game normally.
- Yes, Basekit Unbreakable works in the endgame, but only once - if the Gates are not yet open you have one more chance to use this if you are Downed. If you have already used it before that whistle sounds, then you don't get another shot. If you get downed in the Gate, too bad. If you get downed off a hook, too bad. If you get downed after healing, sorry Charlie, it's Endgame and everything goes in Endgame.
- If it's endgame collapse and everyone alive in the Round is Downed and can't get up, no doors are opened, and the Hatch is closed, the game is considered a Survivor Loss and Endgame collapse ends early with all Survivors being instantly Sacrificed. This same animation also happens if it's Endgame Collapse and there's only one person alive, they are downed in endgame with no possible escape routes, and the Killer does not either initiate a Mori or hook that Survivor for 10 seconds. There's no reason to force a bleedout in the endgame and there is no reason to make people wait until the endgame timer is done if everyone is on the ground just so the Killer can flex their e-peen, since at that point the Killer has already won. This way, only people who force slug in the endgame are punished this way.
- Slugging for a 4k is not affected by this mechanic as it's annoying but not an example of the kind of slugging this system is meant to halt. I will note that you can still use the Basekit Unbreakable should the Killer attempt this, however.
That means this mechanic only activates IF the Killer is truly doing toxic Slugging in any way, they ACTUALLY leave you to bleed out, or they are humping you on the ground. You can't abuse it to run the timer out. You can't force the old never hook me corner shenanigans, and you can't benefit from slugging this way anymore.
I will assume for the sake of argument, you mean that any perk that benefits a Survivor being Downed and then gives them a way to get back up themselves needs changed if we basekit Unbreakable, just so those perks cannot be abused. Let's say we basekit an unlimited Unbreakable. If so then we'd change these:- Tenacity: Has a time limit of 30 seconds of crawling, you cannot permanently crawl away forever. This recharges after you are fully healed or become unhooked by any means. Deactivates when healthy or after picking yourself up, or once the 30 second timer of crawling has elapsed.
- Adrenaline: If it heals you from the Dying state, you become Broken for the rest of the round until you escape. If you pick yourself up in any way before Adrenaline activates, or if you go down before Adrenaline can activate, you do not get the self-pickup pr haste boost, but still get the Unbreakable if you have it - and it does still heal you one Health state. It pains me to nerf this perk more as I genuinely think it's OK now, but if you have basekit infinite Unbreakable you genuinely don't need the pickup on this anymore.
- Unbreakable: No longer grants a single free pickup. Instead, this perk now speeds up recovery time as normal, and makes the Broken status effect go away 25/50/100% quicker for every case of being Broken similar to Vigil (that is you are literally "unBROKEN-able" :) ). While you are Broken, you see the auras of chests, the hatch, any boon or hex totems, and the exit gate switches for as long as you are Broken. In addition the first time you become Broken (and ONLY the first time), you gain a single Endurance hit. So if you start with No Mither, yes, you start with two hits and aren't just another easy target - but only for the first time the Killer hits you that round. This perk's Endurance effect cannot stack with other Endurance effects, because Endurance does not stack that way, and as per normal if you do anything useful you lose the Endurance hit.
- Boon - Exponential: No longer allows self pickups from the Dying state nor increases recovery time in the Dying State, but still does everything else it says it does. This is because you genuinely do not need that effect anymore and you can just get the fast recover effect from Boon: CoH anyway.
- Decisive Strike: Still only usable once per round, still 4 seconds. However, if you ever pick yourself up with this perk active, the Perk deactivates permanently as you've basically gotten the same value - the Killer left you alone and did not hook you, or was punished for tunnelling. This is to avoid lose-lose scenarios. This also means it gives a Killer some warning you might have it if they know how the basekit Unbreakable works, since just sitting there bating pickup is a giveaway. Sorry, but you can have either the pickup or the DS, not both.
- Distortion: You do not lose tokens from this perk while you are downed, or directly after picking yourself up (this is to avoid people trying to crawl into a corner to bleed out and hide at the end of the game, as well as to avoid hiding from the Killer that you picked yourself up should they have aura reading tools). One other change, this perk now deactivates permanently in endgame and also will deactivate if you do not do anything to help the team for longer than 30 seconds. This should help prevent the situation of anyone using it to hide and make their teammates struggle because the Killer has to tunnel the only person they can find, as well as prevent those stalemate endgame scenarios between one Killer and two Survivors before the gates are powered where nobody can do anything because the Killer can't find them and Survs won't do gens. I hate to nerf this perk even more, but.. I don't think anyone will be upset if ratting Survs are further punished.
- For the People: If you are picked up with this perk and go down again in the next 30 seconds, then pick yourself up again, you become Broken the next time you get up for 30 seconds. This goes for anything that is an instant pickup from the Dying State. You shouldn't need perks like these as much if you can just get up by yourself. That way SWFs can't abuse multi pickups in a comp corner.
- Buckle Up: If you have already picked yourself up and you go down again, then someone picks you up with this perk, you do not gain the benefits of the perk. You shouldn't need more benefits if you already get benefits from getting up when someone is being a toxic jerk.
- No Mither: This perk does not need changing, but I will give it one more effect - you are Broken permanently, so since this is enough of a debuff you now permanently have a single hit of endurance that regenerates every time you are unhooked or unhook yourself. It does not stack with any other Endurance and you lose it if you do conspicuous actions as normal. This IS the challenge perk after all, I think that's enough of a challenge - now it works a bit like Soul Hearts do in Binding of Isaac as a temp hit! Oh, and one more change - to make this fair to some Killers, One Hit moves will now ignore Endurance and becoming Exposed also removes Endurance. This way Killers like Myers, Ghostface, Oni, Bubba, and Slinger running certain addons are not completely screwed over by someone who has an extra hit that they are not trying to tunnel. It also means bodyblocking might not work against these Killers as well anymore, making them more dangerous. Endurance should be an antitunnel tool or Survivor body blocking tool in niche scenarios ONLY, not a lucky extra hitpoint. These changes make No Mither not only more challenging while also fairer, but make Endurance as a whole more tactical and interesting to use with an actual counter besides just "ignore that Survivor until it wears off".
- Plot Twist: You may not use this perk to heal yourself if you just got up from the basekit Unbreakable, and as before, you must be injured and not Dying in order to activate this perk to start with. You can't use it to Unbreakable, then heal really fast and get up, that is, or to have multiple failsafes to being downed.
- Soul Guard: Probably needs no changes.
Then the following items need changes:
- Styptic: You don't get to heal a health stage later with this if you use your Unbreakable and then someone heals you with this.
- Syringe: You do not get the speed boost if you used Unbreakable to pick yourself up from Dying and then are healed with this.
- Refined Serum: Much like the Syringe above - if someone gives you this, you don't get the speed boost if you just healed by picking yourself up with Unbreakable.
And in addition I would add to combat Sabo-wiggle type plays that may abuse this, change these:
- Boil Over: If you go down after wiggling free within 30 seconds of being freed, you don't then get the basekit Unbreakable unless the Killer is actually standing over you and proccing the antigrief. Sorry.
- Saboteur (and sabotaging in general): Breaking hooks near a carried Survivor deactivates that Survivor's basekit Unbreakable if that Survivor is put back down or dropped due to a stun near that same hook until the hook comes back, that Survivor is healed from Dying, the Killer and all Survivors are 16 m away for 10 seconds, or the Killer can hook the Survivor. Breaking a hook near a Survivor in the Dying state does the same thing, but also pauses the anti-slugging and antigriefing timers until the Killer is able to hook or nobody is near the broken hook. This is to prevent sabo shenanigans making it so Killers can never hook in a given area, especially if many people have sabotage builds and the Killer is an M1 or low mobility. I'm sure a fix for highly mobile M2s that might abuse this could be found.
- Breakdown: Broken hooks prevent the slugging counter from activating if someone is downed near one, as per above.
- Breakout: If the Survivor is dropped because of Breakout, that Survivor cannot use the basekit Unbreakable for one minute if they are downed again within 30 seconds. No rewarding Survivors for mistakes like not thinking of how to plan an escape route if you know your friend has this perk.
- Deliverance: If the Survivor uses Deliverance to get off the hook, or any other free unhook perk like Wicked, and they are downed again within 30 seconds of that perk doing its job, they must wait one minute before Unbreakable can be used after they are downed again. No rewarding Survivors for bad plays like self-unhooking in front of the Killer.
- Flip-Flop: The same as with Breakout.
- Power Struggle: Also the same as with Breakout. -
I am curious though, why do you think a "more power both sides as the round intensifies" mechanic would make it more "tryhard"? I think it would be an interesting and frantic change of pace sort of like the random effects in Masquerade 2024, maybe as a mode.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873868#Comment_3873868
Agreed. Im there. Just tossing out the only reason i could think of. And the reason is usually moot and insufficient. Bhvr could bandaid and give massive points for hooks and it still wouldn't change anything, imo. Im very curious how things take shape though. Will they try new perks to combat sluggin like with DS and other such nonsense perks? Who knows!
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873625#Comment_3873625
I agree with most of this. And for context, my game name is also 'Spare Them, Mori Me?' so believe me, I am fine with dying over and over and over. In this game, especially in solo'Q, you need to make your own fun sometimes. If that said created fun shits on the game for everyone else, feels like bhvr should peek at it and see whats up. Buuuuuuut its just a feeling and something wanted, not really necessary. Playing the game, you pretty much agree to be at the mercy of another human being able to dictate your time is spent into the game. Damn… sounds stupid when i read it out loud lol.
Good points though. Thank you.
You make some good points too and I agree - if the way you have fun is to make others miserable, this also isn't the game for you. It shouldn't even be about BP, I'm at the point I have won enough and unlocked all the things that I genuinely no longer care that much about wins or BP anyway except for levelling people up (I still do not have a p100 or everyone fully leveled). Frankly, I think the game gets a lot better when you stop feeling like you ever need to grind anymore because there's not much more to grind for. It means you can focus on just playing and enjoying it, doing whatever you want, challenges, personal goals, improvement, whatever. There is no limit or arbitrary need once you unlock everything, it's all a big ol' sandbox you can goof in. It really is so freeing when you stop focusing on a win ratio or how badly you need to escape/4k.
Booting this game up is a bit of a contract, you agree that you might end up losing, and you agree that you can't control the outcome, and THEY agree to hopefully not be a jerk and just play with sportsmanship. At least that is how it should be, everyone should go in more with a "may the best man win" approach if everyone's gonna treat this game like it's comp instead of a casual "try to kill people/not die" horror movie style experience - because it's clearly not trying that hard to be serious in tone or competitive. Maybe it did at one point, maybe the mechanics say it is, but it certainly isn't the actual spirit of this game. However if y'all want it to be comp, it's long past time to act like it instead of being a little child - be a good sport and don't whine about how the other side plays, just play and no matter what happens may the best man win.I like your username and I think we may have run into each other a few times; I've seen that username before. From what I recall you are pretty decent at the game! If I ever see you in game again I will definitely try to Mori you and let the others go. :) I love Moris and am happy we have endgame Mori, though I don't always take it.
Per the slugging thing? Again, I think the only really problematic form of this is the actual toxic bleedout and die slug or being left in the corner to bleed because you crawled off. The best option I think, still, is just to either have ONE basekit Unbreakable per round that activates solely after 30 seconds (you can get another with the perk, or two more sorta with Plot Twist), or to have a 2 minute bleedout timer so this cannot be abused by either side. 2 minutes is reasonable for everything else, why is bleedout four minutes? If you didn't want a basekit Unbreakable abuse, too, you could have an AFC style timer where it only goes up and activates it if the Killer is standing near you, because if you crawl off to bleed out the only one to blame is yourself. Then you would have to make it so that the Killer gets an unblockable Aura read on any leftover slugs at about the halfway mark of the bleedout, preventing hiding to spite the Killer out of points.
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@FMG15 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873657#Comment_3873657
MMR also says nothing about skill. You can be skilled and just not sweating all the time. A worse player who just sweats all the time can have a higher MMR.
Exactly my point - so knowing MMR numbers is pointless. But people would still falsely use them to do exactly what you're saying anyway - "oh you're low MMR therefore, low skill, so your opinion doesn't matter." People already say that about anyone who, gasp, ever plays any way deemed "too cheesy" even once.
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@FMG15 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873642#Comment_3873642
Give them something entirely new is my point. You can assign them to whatever you want
Friend, my point is you can't just make this statement and not give us suggestions. If you don't have suggestions of how to actually make the perks better besides "just nerf and put different effects on" without giving examples of what kind of effects, this discussion makes no sense and just comes off as venting.
Now please list the perks you want changed and what exact changes you want, in detail, so we can continue the conversation - or else move on.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873646#Comment_3873646
It's better than the exclusionary behavior some people have right now, where they try to argue they are better at the game than other people because of the number of hours they've played.
I see your point but IMHO, replacing one exclusionary behavior with another "better" exclusionary behavior isn't justifiable. "You're bad because you have less hours than me" is really not any different than "You have a lower MMR than me so you're bad" - especially when the game only counts wins and losses (which can be random RNG related or forced and thus are arbitrary) and double especially in the case of Survivor where, as I'm sure you've experienced, when you lose many rounds in a row you might get matched with really bad Survivor randoms.
Just because bullcrap isn't as smelly as dog crap doesn't make bullcrap the better option. It's still crap, no matter what kind you fling at people.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872953#Comment_3872953
Apparently some players are so desperate for the mori that they slug for that alone when they wouldn't care for the 4k otherwise. I have my doubts that this is actually true though. Moris are a nice detail but to be honest, they don't look that good that I need to see them every time and I would assume that's how most players feel.
What could be done though is reworking the mori so it only works on the 3rd survivor, if and only if the other one is not in the dying state. So if by chance there really is an uptick in slugging for the mori it would now disincentivise it.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873118#Comment_3873118
I don't think we even have any data that would show that slugging for the 4k became more prevalent around the time the base kit more was introduced. I know that there were stats about slugging but without a comparison to how much it occured before that, this is really not sufficient. It could have always been like this and we wouldn't know for sure. It's also possible that this started way sooner and just now reached its peak.
It might as well be, that killers overall win more, which leads to more games in which slugging for the 4k is even an option. Or people don't want to take a completely arbitrary risk in hooking the third survivor and giving the 4th 2 more chances to escape. That's really the part that I don't like about the way the hatch works. You win the game by killing 3 survivors but then there is a second and third chance for that last survivor to escape still, which can also be minimised by slugging.
I'd say that's a problem with the hatch. One that unfortunately has no easy solution because without the hatch, that last survivor basically has no incentive to play anymore. The same thing would be true for the last 2 survivors (with 1-2 gens remaining).
Frankly I agree, I don't know any Killer players that slug specifically for the Mori, it's just a nice bonus. I do see it, but like… those people would honestly just have shut the hatch in your face and hooked you or used a Mori offering anyway, so what is really the difference?
I just do not think the basekit Mori alone explains Killers doing this. I think there's other factors at play.
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@beater15 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873621#Comment_3873621
Showing MMR has nothing to do with BHVR balancing the game, like you said they'll balance based on their own decisions and not the top players. So there's literally no reason not to show it, lower rated players can still express their opinions. But they shouldn't be arguing on why a certain killer is bad or good because they're just not good enough at the game.
Respectfully friend I think this is part of why they don't want MMR shown either - because nobody should be justifying using their MMR to determine whether or not someone is "good enough" at the game and thus if their criticisms are or are not valid. That's exclusionary and stupid.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873605#Comment_3873605
Did you conveniently skip over this part: "they shouldn't be doing that, of course"?
And I don't know how many times it needs to be said, but we're NOT talking about a killer leaving you on the ground for 30 seconds to chase away someone else nearby. Or leaving someone slugged if they gave them a free down next to a hooked survivor. Or any other scenario where temporarily slugging a survivor makes sense. So enough with the whole "it's just the killer playing strategically" defense.
We're discussing killers bleeding out the WHOLE team and humping you on the ground for 4 minutes and other such nonsense. Which is absolutely NOT necessary under any circumstances in modern DbD and is literally ONLY done for the purposes of griefing/trolling. It's not even disputable. If you're going into games with an inflammatory username, leaving every survivor slugged with the nodding and WSing after a down.
You're. not. playing. strategically. You're griefing.
It's not about the killer winning, it's about the killer spending 4 minutes rubbing in the win instead of just letting us move on. Great, you've got us all downed. Now just hook us and let us move on and everyone is happy. There's no viable reason other than being a troll to spend 4 minutes after you've won walking between the slugged bodies of your opponents.
Unless you're someone who does that kind of thing, I don't see any reason to be defending it 🤷♂️
This is all correct.
The problem is, too many people think those tactical slugs ARE griefing as you defined it here, because there isn't a formal definition of what "slugging" means. At least, that's the case if people DCing from rounds on the first down means anything.
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@FMG15 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872422#Comment_3872422
Getting rid of their current effects
And replacing them with? You can't just blanket nerf and call it a day.
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Honestly I just want hooking to mean more than Bloodpoints. :( I miss being able to actually use hooks for pressure, which is why Grim Embrace never leaves my loadouts anymore… because otherwise hooks do nothing much that a slug couldn't do better.
And I just don't like playing that way.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873564#Comment_3873564
OCE mainly but I am not playing, watching streamer friends playing from 7pm - 3am approx
IDK if this is the same for you as in NA, but around 7 PM to 3 AM is when it starts getting sweaty and weird for us, too. That's when more SWFs and very confident Killers come out, so I'm not surprised games are rougher for your friends at that time. I've also heard OCE is more competitive than NA, so that may also be part of it.
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873463#Comment_3873463
lol I have to admit that I kinda felt bad the small number of times I've brought gen-rush builds. Commodius + both charge add-ons, Built To Last and some gen-rush perks... I always felt a little weird in endgame chat when people could see the build :/
Oddly, I don't mind seeing that as killer. I'm sure some of my tougher games are the result of a talented team running those things, but it doesn't feel so bad from the killer side. I literally feel worse as the player doing it than when I'm on the receiving end.
Honestly?
This feels so bad to me, I don't like to run Commodious or any generator perks at ALL anymore. I just genuinely feel bad knowing that I am stressing another person out so much it makes them want to sweat. To me it's like when I bring more than one or two gen perks on Killer - needless, sweaty, unnecessary, and overly frustrating. And the more you deal with it as Killer (especially the weaker parts of the roster) the more frustrating it gets until apathy kicks in and you just go, "OK so what is the point if you'd rather have the round over in five seconds? Don't you want to play chase with me? No? OK… :( Here's your win, I'll just open the gate." It feels bad to be the power role and get your ass kicked just because people outperked you, not because you sucked at the game. It also feels bad as Survivor, too. But it REALLY feels bad as Killer because Killer is intended to be a power fantasy.
We really, REALLY do not always need all of this firepower. We really don't. Why do we all have this need to win so hard when we can just try to vibe? 9/10 times I can still get a Killer to just… vibe. Yes, it's less common than it was, but it still happens. At least… I still like to vibe as Killer if people are willing to calm down.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
To everyone saying 'More agency on the ground'. you're really grasping for anything, aren't you?
The issue is its boring. But, also gens are boring. Hooks are boring. Not being in a chase is boring.
Whats fun about the game?
I really honestly feel that if a person can't figure out how to make this game fun for them even when losing, they need a break. I can still have fun punching stuff as Nemesis even if I 0k. I can still have fun derping around with my friends with flashlights even if we all die.
If you (collective you, not YOU personally Spare_Them_Mori_me) cannot find a way to have fun or find humor in this game even when you lose, this is not the game for you. You're expected to sometimes lose. And as Survivor especially you are expected to lose about 10% more often than the Killer does, because that's just how the game is.
If your only fun is in winning, you need to play a single player game.
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I really agree with Emeal on all this - it just really doesn't matter if MMR is shown or not, because MMR in this case isn't being used to measure anything competitively. It's just, quite literally, being used to ensure game consistency so very new players do not get matched with very experienced ones frequently. If you are getting matched with Killers that kick your ass or Survivors that don't know what they're doing, that's because the game thinks you win/lose enough to be there and therefore deserve these opponents/teammates.
In both cases, the baseless whining about "I only get sweaty/crappy games" means nothing and falls apart, as it should, because it was always a dumb argument because even with an MMR system this game is not that deep, doesn't measure actual skill, and isn't about your wins or losses or how you measure up to others.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873592#Comment_3873592
The actual problem with showing ranks in this game, is people would discover that a lot of the things people say aren’t actually true.
If the vast majority of the people claiming “killers don’t need to tunnel or slug” turn out to have a mediocre killer MMR, then their arguments fall apart.
That would also theoretically prove that at higher levels, YES, Killers would need to tunnel or slug, meaning those are necessary game tactics, are intentional, and aren't "cheesy" or "exploitative". That would blow apart basically every complaint that some players have about the game. It would also, if we see KIllers with higher MMR say, "I don't need to use too much gen hold" blow apart the idea that you need gen hold at all, or would also if we see a "weak" Killer with higher MMR on most people blow apart the argument that such and such Killer is weak - after all if most people have a decent MMR as Trapper but not Nurse, then is Trapper actually weak and is Nurse actually strong? What about when players throw and give that Killer a win?
@BorisDDAA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873601#Comment_3873601
MMR is probably the old ranking system with a soft cap to leave out beginners which doesn't even work sometimes so it's exactly the same. I had 20 hours survivors one match, then swf with thousands of hours the next. Matchups were and are still random most of the time. I remember red ranks being paired with rank 20s if it couldn't find a similar opponent. But the criteria now is escapes/kills.
That seems to make sense, but then again if we find out the softcap is even lower than we think it is and that's why everyone's "above softcap", that functionally just means there is no real softcap and everyone is in the same pool - which we already suspected. I actually think there is a range and the "softcap" is not max MMR like people claim but is more like… the very baseline. The max may be 2100 MMR, but the softcap might actually be like, 100 MMR. And because the criteria is just escapes and kills, that still means skill doesn't matter and the argument that doing certain things in the game is "skillless and cheesy" falls apart immediately and means nothing. After all if the game only cares about wins, then what does it matter if you aren't good at looping or a Killer power as long as you win? The game doesn't care.
@king_ab said:
When there is MMR, the game is a competitive game. Anyone who says it's casual is delusional.
Equating a win system that just tracks wins to "I have to be competitive in this game" is, to borrow your word, delusional. Of course DBD has a competitive element, but a game can most certainly be competitive in spirit without being an e-sport battle and thus be casual in mindset. It's clearer now with this formula being revealed that MMR in this game was never meant to be a competition at all, because gaining and losing it is so easy that functionally, wins and losses don't really matter - and you just cannot have a competitive game where wins and losses mean nothing in the long run, no matter how many people say "MMR means the game is not casual".
In fact that's probably why BHVR didn't want it revealed - because people would make statements just like the one you made here to justify being even more competitive in the tag game, and to justify "I can do whatever I want to win even if it makes the game feel bad. I can slug whoever I want or force the Killer to feel so bad the MMR mismatched us I make them give up in the corner, because that means I win, so it's valid. This ain't a non-competitive game after all, screw your fun I got mine I like winning." And that clearly is not the atmosphere BHVR wants, they WANTED this to be ignored and just try to help people have consistent games. But that failed, because some people correctly assumed how MMR works and just chose to use it as a way to justify winning at all costs anyway.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873458#Comment_3873458
I have played for several thousand hours and already know I'm likely not high MMR and wouldn't want to be because it sucks to face comp people all day every day.
The thing is, this is not the case. MMR has a Soft Cap and once you reach this Soft Cap, you are matched with anyone who is above this Soft Cap. This is so that people who are at very, very high MMR still have decent queue times. So even if you are at the highest possible MMR, you will face people who are far worse than that, simply because they reached the Soft Cap.
This is also the reason why people saying they only face the best Survivors/Killers are simply lying. The Matchmaking is not as strict as it would have to be to make this possible.
I don't quite think even that explains the softcap thing, if everyone really IS at the softcap that would mean the MMR is completely broken. I really don't believe most people are at softcap at all.
Honestly though, doesn't all this basically mean that the term "smurfing" means nothing? If MMR is intended to shift around, then it going down on purpose whether you force it that way or it happens naturally really doesn't mean much because it's just gonna go right back up based on that phi value, if we assume phi is a rate of decay for MMR (how fast you gain/lose it). This is also why winstreaks ultimately mean nothing - you don't measure skill based on wins and neither does the game. That is, skill literally does not matter in terms of MMR, only wins do. Which is actually, kinda expected based on what we know about MMR in other games and how it works, especially ones using this system. Pretty sure Overwatch also uses this system for example.
In fact if we assume phi is decay rate, mu is mean MMR, and sigma is the standard deviation of MMR, it explains everything about how MMR works. You have a baseline average of all your games (mu), then you have a range that all your games can match within (standard deviation) from that average. THEN you have a rate of decay that determines how much you gain or lose each match. That's kinda how it works in other games with an MMR system, too
The average explains why some people get tougher opponents than others even below softcap - it's an MMR mismatch. That is there functionally is no MMR. Most people do not have an average MMR at softcap, because if they did that would mean every other data point is so skewed it doesn't really matter and therefore they wouldn't really have any accurate MMR at all. So basically, if you have really inconsistent MMR you may be at softcap already where you can match with anyone and everyone; the formula breaks a little bit.
The standard deviation explains why especially at the softcap, you get such an array of players - because once you hit the softcap anyone can match and the game does not care if you're actually skilled, just that you win by the definition it uses (3-4k or an escape through the gate). If you have a really wide one, that means you again have very bad matchmaking accuracy or no real MMR. If you have a really narrow one, you have really accurate MMR which means you probably also have very frustrating matches - the game is not easy when your opponent is at your skill level or a little above/below it. Most people saying they get comp SWFs and the sweatiest Killers probably aren't softcap, they actually just have a very narrow MMR standard deviation and just don't see much variance per round.
The decay rate explains why, even when people really suck as a Killer and lose a lot, or when they winstreak and still get weak opponents, they STILL get opponents outside of their MMR - because they can gain or lose rapidly and it doesn't really matter. For one person, a single loss or two (versus their average) might be all it takes to get them weak babies, while for others even one win on a Killer they do not play much might give them really strong Survivors next round just because the game thinks they should be more skilled than they really are (because according to other data, they are). This would also explain why you get really bad Survivors matched with you as randoms - because they lost enough and you lost too, so the game thinks you need to be with THESE guys despite you probably not losing because you suck.
Even worse this means that we can now figure out an exact formula based on this for HOW, on an individual level, to tailor your game to never ever get anyone you can't handle… for the most part. You can now use these data to force your MMR to "even out" for the most part by manipulating how much you win or lose. That's exactly what you are doing when you 8hook, or when you winstreak, actually. It's not exactly a complicated statistical formula… at all, and anyone can massage these data for them to get what they want and now, they can calculate exactly how many rounds they'd need to get a higher/lower MMR to do that. Basically, knowing this makes what we would call "smurfing" easier now, so easy that "smurfing" now just means "I figured out how not to make the game suck for me every round", which is basically just… playing normally and accepting your losses as losses.
I'm not sure therefore that knowing all this is gonna be healthy for the game in the longrun, and I don't think it will change anything in the conversation whatsoever, except to make the term "smurfing" pointless. After all does anyone really care if you derank MMR to lose in what is intended to be more of a party-ish game when the game expects you to sometimes lose anyway? You'd still never lose enough MMR with this formula to stomp babies every round anyway, so what does "smurfing" even mean in this context? -
I kinda don't wanna see my number, I don't care how good I am at this game.
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I got No Mither twice in a row…
So that was fun, -
Personally I try not to use anything I hate going against either side, but I mean… perks are perks. It makes no sense to be mad at perks even strong ones.
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@Interrupt_Vector said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873154#Comment_3873154
This is an exceptional quality post and I have read read it from start to finish.
I appreciate that you took the time to formulate your experience in such a detailed manner and I applaud your skill in doing so.
That being said I agree and my experience is the exact same. I have mentioned it in many of my posts but I feel it's necessary given the context, I play both roles equally and 80% of my playtime is without perks, addons and items.
I go through phases where I sweat and really try to learn and improve, mixed with phases where I just relax, become more experimental, try out weird perk combinations that now make a lot more sense and have a deeper meaning to me now that I have been playing without any of them for so long.
Although I have one particular experience that I still find very curious and that is not addressed in your post, and is in fact the only experience of mine that deviates from yours, namely that Huntress is easily my most played Killer, and I can run winstreaks in the hundreds with her without breaking a sweat. As soon as I switch to Bubba, a killer I used to main years ago but that I rarely touch just for fun, every single matchup is exactly those super efficient god survivors you talked about, sending me on a loss streak, probably also in the hundreds if I cared to take it on my chin that often. I haven't had a chill bubba game in ages.
Then I switch to Ghostface and all my games are again super easy and most of the time just a memefest.
This particular part resonated the most with me
The only solution I have found to the MMR crisis is to just… never try. If you even remotely feel like you're getting to the point where the game is slightly even a little bit of too much resistance? Tank your MMR with a meme build or 8 hooking, don't put on anything useful, don't play anyone strong, and don't pretend you're good. Let people go, play friendly, die as soon as possible and let your MMR tank, baby, tank. I genuinely feel like that is what the game expects you to do in order to have normal games
Since my natural phases of sweating and relaxing, as well as the fact that I play without perks and and such put me in a comfortable spot where the majority of my games are enjoyable for me.
Thank you for the kind words friend I wish more people on these forums were chill like that. :)
I genuinely think the game at this point expects that, if you want to keep games consistent, you have to content yourself with whatever kills you get instead of winstreaking. I do not think this game is at all designed to winstreak in.
I also think by designed it was never intended for Survivors to ever be anything but underdogs dealing with near insurmountable odds and trying to survive by the skin of their teeth.
The game intends for Killers to feel extremely powerful, a power fantasy. And it also intends for Survivor to be more stressful and winning to be harder. At least, in theory, since it's horror themed.
Unfortunately, gamers do not like to lose.
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@joeyspeehole said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873140#Comment_3873140
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873081#Comment_3873081
My suggestion doesn't eliminate the box or the ability to slow people down. It simply reduces the lethal pursuer's access multiple times throughout the match. I understand that those who regularly use the character may have a different viewpoint.
I understand what you are saying but still can't agree with this. That is one of the main strengths of the power, and I promise it's avoidable by hopping in a locker when you hear the little "he just picked the box up" jingle. It isn't that hard to avoid… and also the Killer does not see where the box is unless he uses a specific addon, so there is no true "Lethal Pursuer" effect at the start. He has to triangulate that all himself, unless he is using aura perks LIKE Lethal Pursuer - which by the way, a perk being really good on one Killer does not make the Killer's power "too much" nor deserving of a nerf like this.
My point stands.
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@Pit_Bull_Love said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873166#Comment_3873166
Because many of us read and upvote comments, but don't want to be directly involved in the drama.
This is your 69th post!
Nice. :)
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873163#Comment_3873163
Exactly :)
The person I was responding to was defending tunneling by saying DBD is essentially a game of Tag. But it would be really weird if I were it and then tagged someone and then just kept chasing them. The analogy didn't make much sense to me :/
Ohhhh OK I'm sorry for misreading my friend! :)
I don't always read tone well online sometimes, I wasn't sure if it was sarcasm or not. But yes, DBD is a bit more than tag. My point being that at some point both sides need to stop relying on perks and focus on just playing the fundamentals, which is very problematic if the fundamentals at this point include unfun strategies like pushing gens before anything else and slugging people. Like I would prefer to chase but sometimes that is not feasible, and sometimes I have to leave someone down. I would prefer to not push gens really hard and leave, but sometimes the Killer pushes so hard I feel I have no choice.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873186#Comment_3873186
It's such a sad state that we have to thank people for being kind just for talking about a vidoegame haha but I do appreciate it (and I do understand it's unfortunately kind of rare on here to have polite conversations especially when people disagree) I see your perspective, and even though I don't necessarily agree as I belive gen-rushing, much like tunneling, has very strict 'requirements' I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question.
I won't discuss it further on this post, (only because it's not necessarily in line with the topic and I dont want to clog it up more than I already have haha) but perhaps on a different post on this specific topic or message or something we can talk more on it. Always looking for more perspectives to better understand other people. Have a good one, gliyn! :)
I agree. There's so much oneupsmanship even on these forums, everyone always seems to want to whine about how their side has the bigger problems.
Maybe all of these tactics are simply problematic and shouldn't be part of the game at all. Cap generator speeds, regression and progression. Have antislug, we already have enough anti tunnel and anti camp that serve the purpose of eliminating the most toxc kinds of it. And stop moving goalposts every time a solution is reached, both sides, because literally not every single annoying thing can be patched out of everything or you really would not have any amount of a game left.
At some point, you just have to accept all of this IS the game. Sadly, these tactics ARE the game. The worst of it being mitigated will still not remove the fact that these ARE parts of the game and at this point, intended by BHVR as counterplay.
And that sucks. :(
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873166#Comment_3873166
I strongly believe we have an upvote bot or vote-buffing issue on these forums
We really don't. I've been on this forum for 6(?) years now and while it definitely has its issues, this is not one of them.
being banned, making new accounts, and then getting access back to old accounts and logging in to vote the posts up on their current one.
Also not a thing. Alt accounts, in any capacity, are prohibited here. Of course there's some people out there who flout the rules and do it anyway, but they tend to get removed pretty quickly. There will definitely be some that slip through the cracks but not in an amount big enough to cause the type of vote buffing you're describing.
Not even 30+ people are participating in this thread, so how are some people getting 30+ upvotes
Not everyone likes to be actively involved in a conversation, but they may still feel strongly about the topic so they find who/what they agree with, drop an upvote, and go. It's not unusual for threads to get more upvotes than participants.
I see plenty of people here very calmly and rationally pointing out that EVERYONE is being jerks in the event queue getting nothing or few upvotes, while many people who are being one-sided or us vs. them are getting lots of upvotes
Or maybe it is because one side has a greater ability to grief. You'll find an equal number of poor sports in both roles, but it's rare that "toxic" survivors can do as much damage as a "toxic" killer. Teabagging survivors are unpleasant and they shouldn't be doing that, of course, but it doesn't interfere with your ability to actually play the game as killer. You can still chase them, still hit them, still hook them, etc. But a killer? They can actively stop you from playing. They get a down, and then spend 4 minutes WSing you while you bleed out with no ability to do anything. Or they can choose the opposite extreme. Instead of dragging the match out for you, they can just tunnel you out early and you're left with no points or pips.
There's no real equivalent thing the survivors can inflict on the killer, at least not in solo queue. The most comparable thing would be a stacked SWF bringing strong toolboxes, rushing the generators, and ending the match ASAP. But teams like this are rare to run into. Most SWFs aren't doing this, and we know that because, statistically, they escape at much the same rate as solo queue survivors. These people definitely exist. But as the exception, not the rule.
Hence the disparity in upvotes. It's not that we think killers have a monopoly on bad behaviour. It's that bad behaviour on the killer side is generally more subversive due to them being the power role.
I strongly disagree with every single thing you're saying, to me the intent is absolutely the same whether a Killer does it to Survivor or a Survivor does it to another Survivor, but I defend your right to say it. My sole point though is that if you're a Survivor, your own teammates grief you sometimes worse than Killers ever can. And I'm sorry, but being griefed by your own teammate feels worse than slugging, camping, or tunnelling ever does IMHO. It just does. I don't know how, I dunno if it's my mental state when I play Survivor, but I genuinely trust the Killer to be more sporting than most Survivors I meet in random rounds these days and that really is very sad. I guess I must be the only person who has ever experienced that, or has the real mental capacity to think that way. That, or I guess I'm just stupid enough to believe better of people trying to win at Killer than half the things Survivors have put me through as Survivor to ruin my games, solely because of the way I tend to play.
Because the truth is in all my years playing equal Killer to Survivor in DBD, Survivors have always been infinitely scummier and crueller to me than Killers have… and this is when I am playing Survivor. The amount of griefing other Survivors have done to me is absolutely insane, all because I didn't do what they wanted me to or didn't play the way I thought I should or they just did not like me or whatever. And every Killer Main I have spoken with in this community has genuinely been a lot nicer to me over all the years I have played than almost any Survivor Main I have talked to, basically ever. I have never had a Killer Main tell me to get cancer and die because I played Nea. I HAVE had Survivors tell me to get cancer and die for playing a meme build with my friends.
That has been my 100% true legitimate experience since day one of this game, so sorry - but to me, Survivors will always, always be much bigger griefers than Killers ever can be in this game, and infinitely nastier. They have never liked or accepted me, even as a Survivor.
I play in NA East. You may make of that what you will, perhaps Killers in the EU grief more than EU Survivors, but I sure haven't seen it where and when I play. I legitimately can count on both hands in the single digits how many times I have been slugged out recently this year versus how many times I was told to self-end by Survivors or had my rounds ruined by tantruming Survivors mad they didn't get to loop the Killer for 5 gens like all the big Youtube stars can. Maybe that just doesn't happen in NA, maybe my MMR is low enough Killers don't feel the need to do this, I dunno… but I just do not see it. It really, I swear to you, IS that rare for me.
Which begs the question, are the rest of the world's Killers genuinely okay?
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Oh this is still big though.
I have played for several thousand hours and already know I'm likely not high MMR and wouldn't want to be because it sucks to face comp people all day every day. What do I care about a number?
Knowing this number shouldn't change anything, if people want to cheese it let them. Get them the hell outta my lobbies. Please.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873022#Comment_3873022
Hello! Im not the original person you replied to, so my input may or may not be wanted, but the topic you’re discussing I actually am curious of your opinions/thoughts because I myself created a post somewhat long ago asking to define what Gen Rushing is. My main concern was that I had heard various different people call gen rushing various different things, sortve like how sometimes people say “tunneling” when it really wasn’t because tunneling does have a very specific definition.
When the term was originally coined it was back when the BNP was instant, a 4 man would come in with the exact same items/build dedicated completely for gens and they would complete then all in a sickening amount of time. It was so unfair that thankfully it was gutted, and it is no longer possible to do now what used to be done then when gen rushing was created as a term. (Changes for those perks, the BNP, and gen times for longer) But the term has still stuck around despite its qualifications of existence having not, and so I asked the community to help define what it was. The consensus was mainly “it’s dependent upon that person” as in it doesn’t have a specific definition as everyone defines it differently. Which to be honest with the way my brain works, found that to be an extremely difficult answer because it’s something generally regarded as negative, it has negative connotations, and is used as a justification for many other things, so not being able to have a definitive answer of what it is kinda drives me nuts lol.
So if you don’t mind sharing, what is your personal definition of gen-rushing? Is it simply if gens get done without a certain number of hooks being met regardless if any gen perks or toolboxes are present? Is it when a specific builds or items are brought in, regardless if its Solo?Hi, thanks for the kind response. :)
I personally was not around when BNPs were instant, but I have played for some time and heard the horror stories. These days, I would define "genrushing" as either anything intended tactically to do generators extremely quickly (which is valid and strategic), or whenever multiple gens get done quickly in succession, often in chase, and usually one right after the other like bingbingbing. I don't consider number of hooks done beforehand to be part of the definition. Generally, anytime Survivors REALLY focus gens and are bringing stuff to facilitate that. It's a tactic, like how some slugging is a tactic or how some amount of gen control is a tactic. It's part of the game, and while it's annoying it is valid. It doesn't hurt any less to be stung by though especially when you get that rare team you simply can't really catch.While gens can no longer be instantly done and many changes to gens have occurred to fix this, I believe it is still possible in a neutered form, the same way that "bully squads" no longer holds the same weight but still can be present in a neutered form (see some of the common nuisance SWF builds like the wiggle-sabo or head on flashbang squads for example). Much of the teeth has been taken from genrushing as a tool, but it still remains a powerful tool in the Survivor arsenal and even I still tell my SWF to "rush gens" if the game starts to go south for us, meaning I want them to focus the gens as hard as they possibly can.
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I cannot play Wesker, I tried and it's too hard for me to make consistent. :(
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Oh my gosh please, this would be so much fun, allow for some unique loops, be really cool for aesthetic, be awesome for stealth Killers, and be fun to hide in for Survivors.
That said isn't Eyrie technically a graveyard?
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Mine says my most played Killer was Huntress but I have not touched her in months. Meanwhile my friend is seeing most played Survivor as Vittorio (he's a Sable main) and most played Killer as Ghostface (which is accurate, he is also a Ghostface main).
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See this is how I know the forums have an upvote bot issue after tons of the more salty Survivor Mains got banned from here and probably, made new accounts to upvote post. No sane, well rounded player would ever say we need old MFT and DH back, let alone nine of them, because everyone who has any experience at this game knows how bad and unhealthy those metas were for the game.
I would actually 100% say MFT meta was as bad for Killers as old 3gen meta was for Survivors, and I say this without a hint or shred of irony whatsoever, because I played through it and it was genuinely that awful for M1 Killers especially. You really had to be mobility and powerful as Killer or bring Exhaustion stuff every round, yes, it WAS that bad.
Anyone genuinely wanting this back is too new to know better, a troll looking to bait, or doesn't play enough Killer to understand why this perk cannot and should not ever go back to its original form in any way.
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Honestly I don't think this is a Mori issue, and if the problem really is where the Mori is placed then that means we need to make GREEN Mori basekit not Cypress, just so the Killer can have their shot at one Mori and now we don't have the fear of a 2k slug at the end.
But truthfully? I think if you are purposefully doing everything you can to make it impossible for the Killer to kill you when that's their only goal now that the game is nearly over, all while I bleed out on the ground while feebly crawling for hatch, then I don't think that's the Killer's fault for wanting a 4k and I'm not going to blame them. I'm going to blame you, the teammate, for keeping me in the match this long doing nothing but bleed just because you're too petty to let the Killer finish the round.
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@Blizer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873163#Comment_3873163
Im also NA, and i dont see slugging outside of the occasional Twins or Oni, with Twins being the common one. I havent ssen much lately either, but alot of people are complaining about it, and i have seen in general an increase on the complaining lately. I do think BHVR needs to do something if this continues to be an issue and if it grows and festers from where it is right now (Though that might be an EU thing rather an NA thing.)
I agree on the tunneling, thats very much prelevant here in NA, but idk how much compared to EU
I think a lot of people are mistaking a long down with a slug, just because the Killer doesn't hook right away or worse yet, loses them. Then they crawl off and hide and that makes the issue even worse. Personally if I see myself slugged this way, I just crawl to the nearest hook so the Killer realizes "hey, you win good job, if you're a decent human please hook me and take your points so we can all move on with the round, friend." If they then still leave me down anyway, I know they're actually being a jerk.
I also think a lot of people are angry at "slugging for the 4k", probably because sometimes Killers will slug someone then search the whole map for the last person. But it takes two to create a situation like this - one Survivor, and one Killer, and I think the 2k then 2 slug epidemic says a lot more about that fourth Survivor than the Killer. This is because the hatch can't spawn until you or the other person dies, so it's much better to die so your teammate can maybe get hatch. Look at it this way: if you're hiding and not helping your teammate, and they end up slugged and the Killer has to look for you, then finds you and you take them on a 2 minute chase because you can, how is that really the Killer's fault your teammate is slugged? The Killer didn't know you were going to play hard to get and make yourself as difficult to handle as possible either out of need to win or out of spite, how could they? You're not helping in that situation; the round is basically over, your team lost and the Killer isn't letting you go - be the better person and just take the L here so everyone can leave and your teammate can maybe try for hatch, because I guarantee that's all the Killer also wants to do is leave. GG glhf nr.
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@TragicSolitude said:
I just play through the Tome, then I'm done. I had fun with Chaos Shuffle the first time for about a week, messing around with weird perk loadouts while everyone else was messing around with the weird perk loadouts, and then people started playing for real and it's like, "Well, I can do that in normal mode and there I get to choose my perks, so why would I stick around here?" And that was that. I play Chaos Shuffle for the Tome and then I'm done. It doesn't even have queue bonuses to try to boost the garbage amount of Bloodpoints rewarded.
I kinda hope the event queue does get filled with bots. It'd be hilarious. That's the great thing about video games, you can stop playing whenever and let the problems become someone else's problem rather than let them be your own. If you keep getting slugging killers and you don't enjoy playing against them, let those killers become other survivors' problem. And then those survivors can do the same. And soon the killers will be waiting forever in queue or slugging bots.
As someone who's complained on the forum for six years about console performance, I have little faith that complaining on the forums works. Maybe forcing the queue to be filled with bots will mean something to someone.
Oh god, that's really jaded and cynical, isn't it. Sorry, I had a lot of fun during the Bone Chill event. I miss it. Lights Out 2.0 had the amazing candles. We no longer get the beautiful Lunar New Year event. Chaos Shuffle offers nothing. And 2v8 was fun the first time but not the second. Kinda feels like there's nothing to enjoy or look forward to in DbD right now.
You feel this way too friend? :(
I loved the modes, I love Chaos Shuffle. I enjoyed Lights Out both times, I enjoy Masquerade every year, and I enjoyed Haunted by Daylight for all the years it's been on. I sort of liked the first 2v8 but was over it in about three days, and just didn't really enjoy the second take at all. It kinda feels like all of the modes have been optimized the way the rest of the game has and it's not really any fun at all, and I genuinely don't know how to fix that.
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@jayoshi said:
It is nice to see people defending this are only getting like 3-4 upvotes while people saying it's a crap way of playing during a casual event mode are getting 30+ upvotes. Like you guys are the minority and I wish BHVR would do something about it. I'm only doing this event to try and get the charms and banners, then after that I'm done playing it. Sweaty and troll killers just drain the fun from playing this mode.
I agree it's a crappy way to play during an event, but frankly, I don't think that's actually the case that everyone thinks ONLY Killers are sweaty this event, and I strongly believe we have an upvote bot or vote-buffing issue on these forums - that is, people being banned, making new accounts, and then getting access back to old accounts and logging in to vote the posts up on their current one. Not even 30+ people are participating in this thread, so how are some people getting 30+ upvotes for posts that amount to "Killer/Survivor bad"?
It's pretty clear too that all the upvotes given are angry ones done to hyper-boost the more one-sided and angry responses. Because it surely IS NOT just Killers behaving this way - this is provable, and it can easily be proven by anyone going in with a mid to lower tier Killer and having to face Survivors that bring strong items every round in the mode who then do things like teabag at the gates while refusing to leave. It's really everyone behaving this way; pinning it on one side only is immature at worst and very woefully unbalanced of a take at best.That, and you simply cannot and should not tell the quality of a post by its upvotes; I see plenty of people here very calmly and rationally pointing out that EVERYONE is being jerks in the event queue getting nothing or few upvotes, while many people who are being one-sided or us vs. them are getting lots of upvotes. The anger drowns out rational thought so no real discussion can occur outside of a popularity contest.
This is how groupthink works.
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@Massquwatt said:
I play survivor quite regularly and I always think to myself "Where are all these serial sluggers at?", seriously. A killer that goes out of their way to slug everyone and leave on the floor is a rare outlier? The only conclusion that I can come to with these threads is that apparently OCE killers are normal, empathetic human beings while the rest of the world is apparently populated by the dregs of society or something. In which, sucks to be you guys I guess.
I am NA and I rarely see serial slugging, I much more often see tunnelling over here, which is easily dealt with and still also pretty uncommon. I genuinely am not getting these super toxic slugging lobbies, which either means I am very lucky or some players doth protest too much, methinks.
@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872937#Comment_3872937
But in Tag, the person who is 'it' doesn't just chase one person repeatedly even after tagging them. Did I miss something in that analogy?
Respectfully friend I have never seen a version of tag where this isn't allowed. Most people just don't do that because the tagged person is then It, or out of the round, or they learn to stay away from the person who is It better. I don't think the analogy quite fits here.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
I agree that matchmaking is by far the biggest problem with solo queue. Every single time I play, I will get matched with brand new players in at least one of my lobbies. Getting paired with teammates that can last more than 30 seconds in a chase is extremely rare. I have no problem escaping at the 40% average rate if I have semi-competent teammates.
On the killer side, I have a different experience. A. vast majority of the survivors I face know are very skilled and seek to know how to correctly run every loop in the game, know how to string loops together, play windows and jungle gyms, etc. every survivor team I face, I wish I had those teammates in my solo queue matches!
This is roughly my experience with about every Killer I play, and as Survivor too.
If I have even one random in my Survivor lobby, they are almost always selfish, egotistical, toxic, greedy, bad at the game, willing to DC/end on hook after one down, or a combination of all of those. That's if they aren't some random anon who is a hacker or a TTV in disguise just looking to style on the Killer to the detriment of everyone else in the round. That means my MMR goes down through no fault of my own, and surely not because of my skill. Then the game smacks me on the wrist and goes "no, bad Survivor no cookie" and punishes me by telling me I lost, giving no pip, and giving me fewer BP. No wonder people go next all the time, it's because it isn't fun to do your best and really try your hardest to just vibe and get points not even playing meta or anything, but then you still get shat on despite all that. This is not fun for me, and it surely isn't fun for the Killer who now has to deal with the stress of some uberplayer or the boringness of an easy target.
But on the other hand, if I play Survivor and we begin to streak, and I do really well and escape a lot by playing as stealthy and aggressively hard to catch as possible - if I put on even ONE more meta perk besides Lithe and bring ONE more item like a Commodious BNP Spool box or a syringe medkit and use it to win - the game tells me "good job you are always supposed to escape forever" even though it's clear the game isn't balanced for that, then rewards me with a pip and BP increase. That means Survivors play this way more often (not necessarily me). If I play this way, I do win more often but also my MMR increases so rapidly and so far I get just the sweatiest Killers imaginable, every game, forever - because MMR is exponential in gaining it, but not losing it. Four slowdown Nurses and Blights. Killers offering tilted maps. Billys that slug from the word go because they're just that damn good at curving and like to focus unhooks. Me and my more chill SWF don't stand a chance; none of us are bringing anything that meta and we are playing the game as intended, and we just do not have any amount of a chance against these Killers. The game is over before it began and I am left asking why I loaded up as Survivor at all, and then I get told "no, bad Survivor" by the game for losing when it's really not even my fault I won so hard to get here in the first place.If I play Killer, and I play even remotely well with a Killer I do well with, I trip and fall into a 4k so easily it's like the round was not worth it. The game then tells me "good job you are supposed to 4k everyone" even though it's clear the game isn't balanced for that, then rewards me with a pip and a bunch of nice flavor text, and the option to Mori in the end. This leads to Killers (not necessarily me unless I really want the Mori or whatever) playing like their life depends on the 4k, because only 4ks are incentivized. That leads to the Killer doing everything in their power to GET there, be that tunnelling, slugging, camping, or just playing hardball. That's not fun for Survivors to face, at all. There is no mercy or kindness in such a playstyle, but it's what the game expects you to do if you want to win - no fun, no messing around, no silly moments, no chill or mercy or vibing. Just ruthless killing by any means necessary. And I don't really find that fun, but I also don't enjoy being told I'm skill-less by the game if I lose. So… I play to win.
But, if I play this way, I slaughter everyone in my way even with the weakest of Killers on the tierlist, up to a certain point where I hit a wall, and no it does not matter what Killer I use - Nurse, Blight, Wesker, Ghostface, Dredge, Dracula, Chucky, Sadako, Trapper, Myers, Huntress - if I use ANYONE and start to do really well, just because I am decent at that Killer, I eventually face nothing but the dreaded SWF Team 6 every round forever. Survivors who know mindgames intimately and seem to have wallhacks and hug pallets and refuse to even engage in a normal chase because they're too good at checkspots for an M1 to catch. Survivors running full meta perks in every slot AND probably are a SWF in comms. Survivors that crouch perfectly to avoid every M2 hit I do, Survivors that know the counter to my Killer by heart, Survivors with four Syringe medkits or Commodious BNP Spool toolboxes that hide so well I can't find them, genuinely cannot, without any aura read. There is no skill issue, I am playing perfectly, I am doing everything I would in any other game, the issue 100% is not me. It's just that these Survivors are SO GOOD there IS no catching them, it's like all four are the Final Girl in the horror movie and I just don't stand a chance. I have no breathing room, no air, NOTHING I can genuinely do to make the round feel decent, because these Survivors are so ruthlessly efficient, and then I lose and get told "no, bad Killer, you're supposed to ALWAYS 4k". Then I come to the community with how bad this feels, and get told by people there "You did something wrong", "Must be a skill issue", "um well ACTUALLY Killers are overpowered, so if you are struggling it's your fault and you're just bad at the game", "Just use [baby Killer perk I have long outgrown], it's easy you can unlock it by prestiging [Killer I have already unlocked and prestiged ages ago]" - because the game has conditioned everyone to play for the 4k at all times as if that's all that matters. Then I wonder, why did I even log in to play Killer at all?
I genuinely think tierlists are a myth, and "good Survivors" can destroy every Killer in the roster given enough skill against that particular Killer. I believe basically any Killer can be good or terrible depending on the player, and it's clear BHVR also believes this, even though it's buffing Killers that need it and nerfing Killers that overperform. But the community doesn't seem t believe this, the community is obsessed with "but Good Survivors/a Strong Killer" this and that and the other when quite honestly you only start to see those "Good Players" when you sweat and winstreak - something very easy to do unfortunately, on both sides, if you play the right meta. Yes, even with Survivors being weaker now, you can still do this. See, I believe "Good Survivors" are a lot like "Good Killers" - just meta players who realized, "this is how you win and winning is all that matters in this game" - and they ruin the game for the rest of us. They aren't wrong to play this way, the game says this is how you show you are good at it. But they aren't fun to go against at all, because nobody enjoys playing really well only to be told "congrats your prize is demon players from the depths of Hell who have never been defeated and are on their hundredth win in a row, good luck LMAO you're gonna fail". It doesn't reward winning, it doesn't reward skill, and it doesn't reward your hard work getting good at your chosen Killer or at Survivor in general. At all.
The only solution I have found to the MMR crisis is to just… never try. If you even remotely feel like you're getting to the point where the game is slightly even a little bit of too much resistance? Tank your MMR with a meme build or 8 hooking, don't put on anything useful, don't play anyone strong, and don't pretend you're good. Let people go, play friendly, die as soon as possible and let your MMR tank, baby, tank. I genuinely feel like that is what the game expects you to do in order to have normal games, because otherwise you always get a game that is either too easy or too hard. And you have to do it a lot, because you lose MMR half as fast as you can gain it on both sides, which means you gain way faster than you lose it and so you never have a true balance.
And I just wish MMR weren't like that. I wish it weren't exponential. I wish I didn't feel the need to always bring the strongest things to get out of the baby pool or even compete as some Killers. I wish the game did not tell me I'm only worth a damn in it if I win constantly, and I wish I could just pull back and not worry and still be given a "hey good job" even if I don't 4k or escape. I wish the game didn't take itself so seriously, and I wish the comp nature of MMR didn't factor into the game this hard.
Because frankly, this MMR system doesn't work. Not in the same way it does for other games. And neither do emblems.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873056#Comment_3873056
Noooooooooooooo :(
Crawl back to the well. Its safe there.
As a being of the darkness I don't do well in the light it hurts my sensitive eyes :(
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@joeyspeehole said:
I don't think they would be gutting him if they made it so he can't interact with the box. If he downs someone holding the box, then it will activate; I feel like that is fair. It kind of sucks when they go and activate the box right when the match starts.
Unfortunately using the box is important for Pinhead for several reasons. It's half his entire kit, he gets info, he finds a chase target, and he gets some slowdown pressure that way. And him being able to interact with the box at the start and even juggle it is actually, fully intentional by the Developers as it's really no worse than being hit with Lethal Pursuer is. No matter how annoying some Survivors may find it he is supposed to be able to do that and it would actually be very unfair to him if he couldn't.
If you take away Pinhead interacting with his box, you not only gut him - you destroy him by removing half of his power. It would be like if BHVR decided to take away Dredge's ability to interact with lockers in any way, or took away Ghostface's ability to crouch, or took away Trapper's ability to pick and re-place his traps at all (without the addon for it).
I don't want to make any judgement calls about you or your skills, but it seems like by this post you either don't play much Killer, or don't play Pinhead. Nobody who has played this character would ever suggest removing half of his kit this way. -
@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873051#Comment_3873051
I heard that man... maybe 10 flashy saves total myself... any killer worth their salt makes it really hard. 😅😅😅
The only way I got that "2 blinds while killer is carrying another survivor" challenge done was to blind them as they hooked. I think they changed it to 1 hook, but I'm so glad that works... cause can you imagine? xD
Honestly my friend I can't do any blind challenges unless I just run Blast Mine and pray. I refuse to use Flashbang because its sound is glitched (I don't use broken, way too OP, or glitched perks), and flashlights don't work for me. :)
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This issue is still occurring as of 1/18/25, I have evidence from a custom round here.
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This is still happening, I just had this happen in a Chaos Shuffle round against my poor Sadako. :(
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This continues to affect flashbangs especially.