LockerLurk
LockerLurk
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@cesspoolechochamber said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3901368#Comment_3901368
Agreed, there is no incentive to stay in a match that is already over. Whether that's other survivors not doing gens, dropping every pallet on the map etc, letting other players go second stage etc.. or a killer who tunnels or camps or slugs. What is the point of playing? I play for the great chases and possibility to escape. If a killer refuses to chase just so they can win every match. I say let me move on to another game. Would I play checkers against someone who is unsportsmanlike just to win? No! Then why do I have to stick it out on a video game I paid for? Because a few of you think it's unfair to other players? You know what's unfair not being able to work on one gen, not being able to get to a loop to even have a chance, being left on hook while everyone else gets to play the match.
At this point I really don't care anymore about making sure everyone else gets to have fun in the match and if I'm not having fun I'll move on to a match I am. That's the same mentality that has been spewed by many killer mains "it's not my job to make sure your having fun" as they tunnel or camp someone out. Chickens have come home to roost
This is true for Killer side as well. Why would anyone want to stay in a round where they only have a couple hooks and three gens have popped off in one minute? At some point it stops being a skill issue and starts being an actual issue with the game because humans cannot possibly complete all tasks when the tasks have to be done in a rapidly dwindling, stressful window.
Fun needs to be the focus for EVERYONE. You should be incentivized to care about everyone getting to enjoy the round. The problem is the game defines fun as winning and the definition of winning is so narrow… -
@shadow_V said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3901340#Comment_3901340
So we get penalized for killing ourselves on hook but the killer doesn't get penalized for slugging us? Sounds like a one sided mess to me when are the brain dead devs actually gonna make it fair I see nothing that punishes the killer its all on survivor so you mean to tell me if it's 5 gens and the killer has 4 hooks I'm not gonna be able to kill myself when it's CLEARLY a loss cause
The problem isn't the slugging or the killing on hook here, what you're describing - though those are certainly issues.
The problem is this game has an idea of winning that is SO black and white, in a game not DESIGNED for that, that anything other than a clear win feels like a "lost cause". -
The biggest reason that I see people DC, Killer or Survivor, is because the player feels like the round is not worth playing or isn't fun. This is usually because of one of the following:
- They feel they have no way to reach their goal in time: i.e., Survivors are popping gens super fast or Killer is getting a lot of hooks fast and the player's own side has barely started (few hooks, few gens done, etc.)
- The other side is playing in a way that is clearly done to frustrate the other side (griefing/Bully Squads) or is playing to win as quickly as possible (Tryharding): i.e., The Survivors are a SWF that brought heavy gen progression against a low mobility M1 Killer on a large map, the Killer is a four Slowdown tunnelling Blight, the Killer is slugging really hard from the word go, the Survivors are a Sabo Squad trying to prevent the Killer from getting ANY hooks at all while hoping they're baby enough for one teammate to pump gens and leave, etc.
- They perceive the round as a bad MMR mismatch - too easy or too hard: A Ghostface loads into a round against a really strong and skilled SWF that averages 4000+ hours, two newer players load in and their first round of the day is a really good Nurse player with 15k hours, a Comp Pinhead Main used to strong teams loads into Haddonfield against players that clearly have never faced Pinhead before, a generic group of friends loads in to find their Doctor for the round is a Shard farming bot, etc.
- They feel "bullied" for some reason whether or not griefing is happening or not (actual rage quitting): An inexperienced player has been struggling as Legion all day and mistakenly sees any team that merely does well as being a "bully SWF", a Survivor has had the misfortune of getting a lot of tunnelling Killers recently and thus perceives even Killers who happen to catch them multiple times in the open by chance as "tunnelling", etc.
- The other side feels the round was unfairly stacked against them with offerings or items and doesn't want to even begin the round: i.e., a percieved SWF bringing a bunch of map offerings especially maps that favor Survivor heavily, a Killer bringing an Iri Mori in an event, and so on.
- The player gets someone or multiple someones on their team they perceive to be bad teammates or unserious in some way: i.e., A Blight in 2v8 looking for a skilled partner gets matched with a player just learning Nurse, a more serious minded SoloQ Survivor gets matched with a silly SWF or with brand new players, a player gets matched with other Survivors or AGAINST Survivors where someone throws early, etc.
- Someone in the round is cheating, hacking, or playing in a suspicious manner: A Survivor successfully sets up Treacherous Crows but the Killer does not light up any Crows despite not being Undetectable, A Killer with an aura read build notices that one specific Survivor never lights up, speedhacking Nurse, Survivors are clearly using OBVIOUS cheat clients to make it so the Killer can never catch, pickup, down, or otherwise harm them, etc.
- There is a bot in the round, or too many bots in the round for any reason.
All of these come from a similar few problems, we can narrow that down to the following unfun match types:
- Unfair: MMR mismatches, tilting the Match in one side's favor, playtime differences causing an understandable skillgap between sides, Cheaters/Hackers.
- Unbalanced: Running only the meta or meta perks on strong Killers all the time, natural game events creating a tilt to one side or the other by chance, playing a Killer with a weaker kit against stronger Survivors by chance, bringing Meme builds against strong Killers by chance, etc.
- Unwanted: Griefing, BM, bots, "playing to win"/tryhards vs. the majority of more casual players, general unpleasant player to player events.
How do we fix it? Here's some ideas:
- Unfair: More robust MMR management and fairer means of gain/loss of MMR. Removing or balancing ways one side or the other can tilt the game in their favor when stacking things like items, addons, or offerings. Ensuring anyone under the 100 hour threshold NEVER plays against anyone above that threshold while they learn the game by placing them in a stricter "Kiddie Pool MMR". More robust cheat/hack detection that is continuously updated to ensure the most common kinds of hacks are noticed as invalid and instantly ban players doing them from the game.
- Unbalanced: Buffing perks to create more viable options for perk variety while balancing other perks that are a bit too strong. Balancing maps and tiles to be fair to even the most low mobility Killers as the bog standard, but adding a means of adjusting complexity of tiles for Killers that don't struggle with mobility or tiles as much. Buffing or balancing Killers that are low mobility by giving them more options or fixing problem areas in their kits, as well as map balancing. Disallowing too many multiples of the same perk between players in a SWF or too many of the same kind of Perk on one Killer in order to promote perk variation (NOT ideal). Prevention of weaker Killers from going against certain kinds of builds too often (also NOT ideal).
- Unwanted: Properly defining and handling actual griefing by preventing it from the start or putting lockout timers on people who do it too often. Addressing issues with there being multiple bots in a round, and adding killer bots should the Killer DC. Adding a ranked mode and a casual mode, or making the ranked mode super easy to pip in but based on killrate or scores instead of your pips for the seasonal grade. Changing how MMR and wins are calculated to promote the idea that 4ks and escapes are not the only way to win the game, pip up, reach a goal, etc. Prevention of those who have gone on long winstreaks from being matched with teams or Killers who are casual enough to lose a lot, play meme builds, let Survivors go free, etc. Better policing of griefing and BM, sore winners/losers, etc (not sure how this would look).This game is horror villain tag/capture the flag. It really shouldn't feel frustrating by design. Killer players should not feel nervous with their stomach in knots loading in because the team they're against looks like they're here to rush gens and leave in five seconds when they want a casual Pig round. Survivor players should not have to deal with Killers so stressed by the time limit and all the things a decent team can DO to tilt things in their favor a bit that the Killer plays hard from the word go and pulls unfun tricks like tunnelling and slugging for multiple minutes. This game should not be a rush to go shorter shorter shorter rounds, we need to slow it down a bit.
And for the love of everything, Pipping should not feel like something you have to earn anymore, it should just happen if you stay in the round as a reward for later since Grades are JUST a measure of how much you played that month. Nobody cares about the Grades, but people do care about the BP attached to Grades, which though meaningless is enough incentive to sweat especially in higher Grades. -
This actually sounds like a fun version of Skull Merchant and I might actually play her if her power involves a mix of stealth and shooting drones, kinda like some weird mix of Ghostface, Artist, and Houndmaster!
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@Mandy said:
The survey is a very small part of it, and its more data driven for our side rather than part of the feedback process. The feedback will be what we take from forums, reddit, steam etc when we post the update.
And yes, we definitely read the feedback and share the information with the design team, we wouldn't do this if it wasn't something that would be used - would be a complete waste of everyone's time. The last Design Preview on the Trickster, ensured that a design didn't go through that people weren't onboard with for the most part, hence changes are being made based on that feedback.
I think this is a great idea! Will you be doing this for other Killers people commonly request changes for?
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People tend to go next with alarming frequency against M1 Stealth Killers… just play the game and learn how to handle stealth. It really isn't that hard.
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Myers is fine, he just got a much needed BUFF that took him out of languishing and useless in D tier.
Leave him alone. -
Do I think they're neat?
Dassit. -
@WolfePhD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3899089#Comment_3899089
If you place yourself in a queue, you have expressed intent to play a game. Quitting before a match starts is still selfish. 4 minutes should not be wasted in the world because one person didn't like what their opponents have brought to the trial.
Wolfe, nobody OWES you a game. Nobody is obligated to play against or with people who clearly ONLY queued up to give the other side a bad time. I don't enjoy playing against it, and I don't enjoy playing with random teammates who do it. It's unsportsmanlike to stack the game so in your favor the other side has no chance, and it's not fun to play with or against someone who does that. Period. It's exactly like playing with that snot nosed kid who always used house rules in Monopoly to be sure they'd win every game. It's not fun for anyone else but the person doing it.
It's literally just a minute or two, bro. If you can handle a 2 minute endgame timer and a 4 minute bleedout, you are adult enough to handle one measly minute of going back to the queue to ready up again. Yu know what you are doing bringing certain items or offerings, please don't pretend you don't. Nobody sends Killers to Eyrie or Survivors to the Hospital as a Stealth Killer without wanting to just stack the game in their favor really hard, it's obvious. People should not have to stand for that. Why play with someone like that?
And respectfully, I paid for this game with my own money. Why shouldn't I get to decide what my gaming experience is like and whether or not I play with someone who clearly wants to irritate me? Why must I entertain people who come to obviously troll or ruin my night by shuffling over my body while I bleed out or sending me to stacked maps just so they can winmoar? Give me one good reason I am obligated to do that other than "but you signed up to play."
Yes, I did sign up to play. I did not sign up for a boring or frustrating round done just because the other side wants to win more or troll. Nobody signs up for that. Nobody should STAND for that. There's a very good reason map offerings and forfeits are changing. -
@BurnedTerrormisu said:
Sorry @LockerLurk and @Zuiphrode but if you answer with "nobody owes you a game" you have not understand what i have written. nobody left because of me. i was the replacement for someone that left.
I'm sorry if the truth hurts.
Games are supposed to be fun. It's not fun to have to play against a team or a Killer who goes hardcore from the word go when that wasn't the round you signed up for, and not the experience you're looking for. Lobbies should not be locked. I don't think anyone wants to play with a 10,000 winstreak four slowdown Blight or a SWF who solely queues up to attempt to bully new Killer players who can't handle things like Saboteur and sabo boxes yet.
In fac playing against a SWF is so un fun if the SWF is good enough, a lot of casual Killer players DO just throw the game by being friendly, standing in the corner, etc. These players usually are playing someone like say… Pig against a team that expected a Wesker or Nurse. Why should they be locked into that sort of round? Surely the SWF has no fun as there is no challenge, and the Killer has no fun because these Survivors simply are too quick at everything for their Killer to catch up to. So… who has fun here with locked lobbies? Who is having a better experience?
Just allow people to dodge. It might mess up queue times and matchmaking, but the fact is that nobody is obligated to play specifically with YOU if they do not want to. Nobody is obligated to play this game at all. -
@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3898477#Comment_3898477
But you punish legitimate plays too. Say survivors are just better. They are fine-mannered, but MMR screwed up. Killer has no patience, so he surrenders at the same second, that survivors open gate (without survivors even seeing killer in that moment. No standing at the gate to BM. Just sprint into exit gate).
Why would you deny said survivors escape points/MMR? Isn't this actually killer's BM in this specific case?
And if stomping is BM (which is the only thing I can understand from you response) - shouldn't by the same logic get killer punished for winning at 5-3 gens (by denying him MMR and sacrifice points)? And if so… Isn't it just outright foolish rule?
Why should anyone have to stay in such a badly mismatched game? That's not fun. Games are intended to be fun. if the MMR is bad enough it routinely causes this, then they can take MMR back to the drawing board.
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Please yes, it's just a rotation between Chaos Shuffle and 2v8 now. I'm getting bored.
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I'm afraid nobody owes you a game, OP.
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The problem is there is no cap on generator regression or progression. The problem is Killers feel the need to bring perks like these because of things that so heavily boost generator progression, and so Survivors feel the need to bring them because there is no limit to how fast a gen can drain or how much regression can stack on a generator, and so nobody is happy with game speed. Then BHVR "fixes" it by putting bandaids over bullet holes, with faster gen repair perks, perks that reduce charges with a heavy downside like Weaving Spiders, and kick limits ALL without realizing the issue is that both sides have way too many things they can do to force generators to work in their favor. So how do we fix it? Some ideas, not all would need implementing:
- Basekit Pop on all low Mobile Killers. It can be a weaker form like 10-15%, but it needs to be viable for these Killers to kick Gens.
- Rebalance perks related to generator progression as Well as regression. it's absurd you can stack toolboxes, perks, and Survivors on Gens like this.
- At this point go back to the drawing board and make things like Weaving Spiders and Brand New Part not reduce charges on the gen, but RECHARGE toolboxes when used. Reduction of charges is clearly a failed concept that just feels bad when Gens are currently 80 seconds to complete.
- No more letting perks like Surge or Eruption activate the genkick limit. This makes no sense and limits their utility.
- Make generators function in stages to prevent super fast pops out of the gate and make them more interesting for Survivors to do.
- Cap how much a gen can regress or progress in one sitting - no more than 25% either side. This requires reworking some perks both sides.
- Add a sixth generator.
- Create perks that help low mobility Killers catch up faster.
- Give Low Mobility Killers, all of them, basekit mobility options. Up their base speed, up their movement, they move faster in power, SOMETHING.
I think the most valid choices here are capping progression/regression so these perks/items cannot be turbostacked this way, balancing certain items and perks on Survivor side especially (Killer's been balanced enough and clearly it has not stopped the issue), and giving low mobile Killers better mobility options basekit. -
Why should someone have to play against the fifth Nurse who slugs everyone for Moris with Iri Mori, or the fifth SWF that sends an M1 Killer to the Game with map offerings just so the SWF gets an easier time? It will stop when those things are handled by the devs (which they're thankfully at least looking at map offerings), otherwise you should be aware nobody OWES you a match. And that's alright. Nobody OWES you a game with them.
This is not a quit. This is not a DC. The game has not started and 1 minute is nothing. 4 minutes on the ground is too much, 2 minutes teabagging int he gate is too much, but 1 minute is also too much? The rounds will never instantly load nor should they, and nobody should be forced to play a game they've clearly been set up to fail in from the word go.
Plus, how would you even police this? How would you know it's not someone's internet crapping out? So people with bad ping or a bad internet connection should be unfairly penalized for YOUR discomfort at a match being abandoned?
Maybe don't bring things into a match either side that cause the match to be abandoned, how about. -
I agree. This would fix a lot of the atmosphere and also would help some Killers, like Stealth Killers, be a bit more powerful. Let's bring the scary back to DBD!
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There's perks that activate on vaulting that already can make the Killer whiff; I'm sorry but vaults should not be a get out of hit/down free card. Tiles are not meant to be safe havens, ever, they're meant to be structures you show skill around. Some vaults are quite hard for some Killers to handle, we do not also need to make them hard for the Killer to hit around those vaults.
I understand your frustration but this is a change that half the roster can ignore and the other half is hard nerfed by. It's an awful suggestion. Just use Finesse or Lithe and learn how to properly run tiles. -
The downvotes allow for downvote-brigading from bad actors and are a huge issue like on Reddit, they need to go. They add nothing and create bad faith.
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Killer:
- At least a 2k, 1k if the Survivor team is difficult - I aim for killing as many as I can, be that 1 or all 4; I have no ambitions to winstreak over here, I just don't care about wins that way anymore.
- I have fun
- Get a Mori
- Get enough hooks to pip even if I lost
- Didn't have to sweat too hard
- Finish a Daily or Challenge
- Pipping
- Get fun chases or interactions
- Manage to tame Survivors into lightening up
- Not getting people who just want to make my game misery all round
Survivor:
- Escape by hatch or gate
- Made some really good plays
- Really good chases
- The Killer actually scared me
- My friends and I do some dumb stuff and it somehow works
- I have fun
- Didn't have to sweat too hard
- Finish a Daily or Challenge
- Pipping
- Manage to tame the Killer into lightening up
- Not getting a Killer who just wants to make my game misery all round
Any of these. For me the endgoal is not even really escaping or getting a 3-4k, I just wanna have fun, man. I could kill everyone or 4 man out and still not find it fun if it didn't feel like a fair fight. I could lose and find it fun as long as everyone wasn't being a total jerk during the round.
The only things I find to be losecons, in fact, are:
- I got a team that makes it clear they want to stomp all over a weak M1 or just wants to play bully squad (I will forfeit, I refuse to play with these people)
- I get a Killer that likes to HARD Tunnel/4 slug from the word go (Again, I will forfeit, I refuse to give you a game for playing this way)
- I don't have fun
- I get 0k or am not allowed to play hardly any of the round because the Killer goes that hard
- Bad Survivor teammates -
@Jtflorencio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3894200#Comment_3894200
It's okay, we all make mistakes.
I'm sorry again but I must have forgotten the /s mark on my post.
/s, by the way. That wasn't me complementing you, it was me gently telling you that boasting "I'm an X Main" doesn't really mean much on these forums. -
@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893368#Comment_3893368
None of the stealth killers have ever been easy to play. They're just weak, with little to no anti-loop, no real mobility, etc. So the 1 redeeming thing they have IS their stealth.
That's exactly it, they are tactically based macro Killers that use Stealth to get an edge in before the chase happens. It's kinda the same with health pressure Killers - a one trick pony that puts it all in on one style of controlling Survivors, and so you actually need MORE skill to use them well and win consistently alongside very good Killer skill in general, than with someone with an easier to spam or pressure power like say… Nemesis.
It's not that these Killers are even weak, it's just that other Killers are so strong and easily won with that they got powercrept. Stealth and health pressure are pretty strong as tactical play actually, if you know how to use them, as stuff like the stealth and healing metas on Survivors proved. -
@lettuchia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3894208#Comment_3894208
In no universe do you have to put in more effort on killers like pig or ghostface than most A tier killers like plague or singularity, it's just that those killers are so weak and have very little skill expression that they can't accomplish much of anything, and they should stay weak so long as they have "weak" skill expression
Ghostface and Pig are Killers that by necessity miss out on chase points because they're ambush Stealth Killers. There are other Killers who miss points in other things; Plague misses Malicious for example because Survivors never heal against her. Your point here doesn't track, they are by nature of their powers disadvantaged due to how they're built. Their powers worked better with older gameplay elements in play, so you have to work harder to feel accomplished with them now.
It's not a weakness thing or the fault of their power at all, nor is skill expression even the issue here, because Killer as a whole regardless of who you play is almost always just about good macro play and power use. There is no more inherent skill in using someone like Dracula than someone like Myers; that's a common misconception and an unfair comparison. It's a "these Killers were built for an emblem system that doesn't exist anymore and now they suffer for it." It's very hard to climb in pip each month with these characters, period. If you feel otherwise, IDK what character you are playing but it surely isn't these ones. -
@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3894193#Comment_3894193
How do you want to trigger unhook X survivors during EGC for example?
I would rather such challenges be abolished and replaced with something more functional and fun than that.
I believe adepts need another overhaul as well. -
@SlowLoris said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3894199#Comment_3894199
No offense, but just because YOU don't do it, doesn't mean it's not done.
I was slugged for the 4k a decent amount BEFORE the final mori was added, but AFTER it was added, it's MOST GAMES.
It has exacerbated the single worst part of the game for me.
Here's the thing friend: In my vast majority of time playing Survivor, Killers do not actually do this in my experience. Not on purpose anyway to be toxic or whatever. The worst I have seen is a slug and left to bleed because I crawled away and the Killer couldn't find me, I don't think every 4k slug is purposeful. It's still not most games EVEN WITH the Mori added for me, and when I do see it, it's VERY obvious. The Mori is 100% not the issue, the issue is that 4ks are incentivized as the "truest way to win" as Killer. That's an MMR and emblem system issue not a Mori issue.
Why are we even mad the Killer goes for a 4k this way anyway when the game literally tells them to go for the 4k and incentivizes it with the way the MMR system currently is? -
@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3894196#Comment_3894196
I am not advocating for watch me leave people. I am advocating for a, giving fair opportunity for survivors to escape (say 30s of all 4 survivors not being hooked and gate being open) b, not punishing them by not providing points/MMR.
Pick one or the other, but do not allow immediate Killer surrender with immediate survivor punishment, because that just gives killer BM opportunity for 0 reasons (think about group of survivors that only tries to win without being toxic whatsoever. You shouldn't give option to punish them by killer forfeiting the match. But I agree it's OK to give that option if they actually stick around just to BM).
My response to this is, and Survivors giving up on first hook doesn't?
I'm sorry but it's not my job to play through a round that isn't any fun, I don't think either side should be forced to play a round that feels like it's not any fun. One sided stomps on either side ARE NOT FUN especially when the opposing side rubs it in your face.
There needs to be a no tolerance solution that makes griefing undesirable because you get nothing from it. This is a solution to that. -
@cesspoolechochamber said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3894192#Comment_3894192
This makes no sense, almost every horror game is based on the players surviving and winning. Imagine playing resident evil and getting to final boss fight and the game makes it unwinnable to beat. This is the problem with so many dbd players especially killer mains on this forum. You guys will gaslight make up every excuse to rationalize easy mode.
Also the point of the game is the thrill of the chase. It isn't necessarily to kill, that's a byproduct of chasing and downing 3 times. Just like escaping a match is byproduct of escaping chases and doing gens. People talk about the game isn't scary anymore or isn't horror based anymore. Well when you remove chases from the game by repeatedly nerfing everything that is safe for survivors. What's the point of running from the killer.
Just was in a match with a deathsliger on tobacco landing. First hook no gens done and the killer drops mid chase across the map to tunnel the Nancy on hook out. The Nancy wasn't even able to get to a pallet, not that it would mattered. The slinger was doing it just to anger everyone.
This is a versus game. You can lose a versus game. This game has "sometimes the side you're on loses" baked in, that is true of both sides. Because that's FAIR in a versus game. No Killer is unbeatable, perhaps you just struggle against that Killer. That's fine, I suck against Trickster and Deathslinger, it's part of the game. Losing is part of the game. If you want a survival horror game you can never truly lose, go play Resident Evil. If you want a survival horror game with the possibility of losing, here it is. It really is that simple.
@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3894192#Comment_3894192
Yeah, like what exact killer change was made to where it's "EZ turn your brain off mode"? I'm having close matches every time, no matter how quick the survivors go down. A lot of decent killer perks destroy themselves after 1 use. Pain Res, Grim, Deadlock, Machine Learning. A lot of the rest aren't even worth bringing. Survivors have tons of options. All the anti-momentum (anti-tunnel) perks, all the exhaustion perks, all the healing and psuedo-instaheal perks, the killer stunning perks. But I really cannot see the leagues of power these people claim that killer has gone through to get here. Here is mediocrity, not overwhelming might. You sometimes go against survivors who basically don't go down. 5 gens have popped, and you've got like 3 hooks, because they just yo-yo at god loops and take you on chases that will cost you the remainder of the gens. There's no sense of control in the slightest. Only for the survivors, there is.
To be fair that greatly depends on the Killer. I don't see a lot of Trapper Mains calling this game Killer Sided, is all I'm saying…
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Yes. The heal meta unfairly gutted some Killers.
Next question.
Edit: 11 Downvotes as of this edit prove that 11 people probably don't play certain Killers much because the Heal Meta SUCKED. It wasn't OK. A better option is needed. The only way I'm okay with a change like this is if syringes get a change or nerf to not be instant. -
No, and it's still not understandable now.
There is no point in a CHAOS shuffle if you can just bring OP toolboxes and Killer item combos every round. -
It actually shows how overpowered some perk combinations on both sides are, and why those OP synergies need occasional disruption to keep the game fresh. It ain't fun to face your fifth SWF all running Never Hook Never Catch Me or Gen speed builds, and it's not fun to see the same four perks on every Killer.
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If it's anything less than an overhaul to make any amount of points, kills, or escapes feel more like a win I don't care what they do and it won't bring more fun to the game. Losing needs to become a state that feels natural and part of the game, not like a punishment. Currently, losses feel way too punishing because they are such one sided stomps of losses you feel no reason to continue playing after a few of them. Not even difficult games do that! This system should make trying your best and not being perfect feel good to encourage more play, but right now it makes it feel bad to try your best and fail anyway, and incentivizes sweat.
They need to seriously rework it, revamp it, and disincentivize pushing your MMR and always playing for a 4k/escape as your goal. I shouldn't be made to feel like I suck ass while learning a new Killer or punished for trying a silly build with friends. I should not have to move heaven and earth just to pip in Iri ranks especially as Survivor, and struggle with some Killers to pip at ALL because of how they happen to work (stealth Killers missing out on chase points for example). I should not have to escape through the gate or kill everyone in the round for the game to consider it a win, and MMR being raised should not be a wincon at all in a game built to be more casually minded. MMR should not be exponentally easier to gain when you win but harder to lose if you start to struggle, I should not have to lose 10 rounds to get back to a comfortable level of play away from ubersweat Blights and SWF Team Six.
We shouldn't have to feel like we have to sweat to have fun in this game. Currently we do. That's a problem - games are supposed to be fun. Again, not even games built to be challenging like Hollow Knight or Dark Souls make it this difficult to have fun losing over and over again, to the point people quit because they don't want to try anymore.
Dead by Daylight should not be, and is not, a rage game. It's a casual-minded horror inspired co-op tag game with competitive elements and it always has been. The MMR and reward system HAS GOT to reflect that. -
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/439788/knock-out-rework
now it's gonna be a perfect counter to predropping and holding W, momotech Blight has been buffed
Like I said, it's going to really help M1s especially and give them much needed counterplay around pallets. These Killers get countered hard by predropping and holding W in a way many other Killers do not. In fact, it may kill the style altogether. Now if you want to deal with an M1, you HAVE to be good at looping or at least know how to be patient to get your stun. It will also reduce the pallet setup strategy some SWFs use to get extra stuns or bait the Killer.
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@lettuchia said:
The terror radius reduction for stealth killers is not good, why encourage stealth killers to not use their power for stealth? As if stealth killers weren't already easy to play now you're being encouraged to play them with even less effort
Counterpoint: Why should we have to give 120% effort with a simple power on Killers widely not considered the strongest in order to win consistently, but only 80% effort on A tiers for the same results? You can still win consistently and even winstreak as Blight not being amazing as long as you have the right perks. You have to be pretty godly at Pig AND be sure you have a decent perk setup to win against a good team as Pig, and you will never reach the winstreak potential a Blight will.
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None of the perk names appear to outright be Hellraiser references. I'm just curious how the icons will change.
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Knight is in low B tier where he belongs, he's fine.
Honestly in some applications I think he can be pretty weak, but in others quite strong. Mid-C to anywhere in mid-A is about where you want the average Killer, and where most Killers are. Any higher they become oppressive for the average player, any lower and they become too easy to handle. -
Can't Rainbow Maps and Bloodsense maps do this already?
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Go Next is a huge issue right now. Camping and Tunnelling are pieces of the game that some Killers overuse excessively.
They aren't the same. One has counterplay around it and only ruins one side's fun. The other doesn't and is ruining pretty much every game every round all the time for both sides, simple as. -
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893039#Comment_3893039
The devs have already said they’re working on the daily challenges. A healthier system for those would be that they’re very generic and more like tome challenges that can be completed with every killer.
As I said in my OP, I just don’t see how you personally opting out of facing Slinger would make that much of a difference to matchmaking. If the entire playerbase picked Slinger then yes obviously that would cause an issue. But is that actually likely?
Here's the issue:
Everyone hates Skull Merchant. Soem people like to play Skull Merchant.
This change would mean Skull Merchant sits in long, long, long, long queues just for playing Skull Merchant. Is that going to make her mains feel good? Would that feel good to you if you had to use her for a daily? Would you be OK with a 30 minute queue every time you needed to do a challenge with her?
It wouldn't for me.
What is your Killer Main? Would you accept 10-15 minute queues every match because everyone decided they didn't like them anymore and banned them? Of course not… that's why this is unfair.
It may not make a difference "for everyone's queues" if I can ban Slinger, but it sure makes a difference for people who like to play Slinger. And that just isn't good balancing or fair treatment, friend. -
@Jtflorencio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893064#Comment_3893064
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893064#Comment_3893064
I'm Main Pig/Trickster/Ghost/Skull
Pig Ambush is useless in most loops and doesn't even come close to 20% against experienced SurviSkullMerchant needs an upgrade on drones, it's his "anti gen" power and he has no strength in chase, drones need to be slightly faster or change direction more easily (Looking at the drone and pressing it to change direction is idiotic) they should do it automatically all drones at the same time without wasting time looking at the drone and focusing on Survi
Ghost Face also needs 5% haste even when he marks a survivor for a few seconds base, (the addon that is lowered to 5% instead of 10% and extra 1 or 2 seconds) that would make him more useful on maps, and he will still be a D/C tier killer
Fire Up is the riskiest perk in all of DeadByDaylight, they can do 3 engines at the same time and the perk It is only useful with 4 tokens, with this rework the perk is less risky to use
I know what I'm talking about, my perks are my killers, too many hours
I'm sorry and I beg to differ. I have only been playing this game for 5 years now, mostly as an M1 Main. I guess you're the expert though. :)
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@Skillfulstone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893051#Comment_3893051
People don't mind the Finisher Mori per-say. Before this, Mori animations were liked (or at least tolerated) but now, with them happening in most matches, it got old really quick and now they're merely seen as "additional reason why the game won't end" instead of a cool cutscene that didn't happen often.
By hiding a Mori animation behind a 4k no matter the means, it automatically incentivizes people to slug for the 4k...and we all know how fun and riveting it is. It's true that it happened often before already, the Finisher Mori didn't create it, but the sheer number of new threads talking about it since the Finisher Mori was introduced speaks for themselves of how it got worse.
We already hear it everywhere, Killers slugging the last 2 and then waiting for one to die (either by bleedout or simply standing over the last slug after hooking the 3rd, wasting minutes instead of ending the game in seconds even when there's hooks within spitting distance) just to Mori the last, is only making people hate those animations due to them encouraging such endgames and making the game even less casual/newcomer-friendly than it already is (as newcomers/low-mmr players will see their games end in a 4k more often).
There's a reason why the dreadful basekit Unbreakable was attempted alongside the previous Finisher Mori PTB: otherwise almost every single games would just end in a slugfest. Hell, during that PTB there were more bleedout slugfest games than normal even though people could get up because Killer players wanted that animation after killing the first 2 Survivors.
[Quite frankly, it wouldn't be that hard to keep the Finisher Mori but make it into something that rewards those that don't slug for the 4k and win the Hatch race without removing 4k slugging for those that merely want to secure the win: The Finisher Mori only becomes available if the last Survivor is on their feet (healthy or injured or Plot-Twisting, that last one is to prevent from trying to purposefully deny the Mori by using the perk right before the other dies) when the second-to-last Survivor dies by sacrifice, by unique Mori (NOT by bleedout) or escapes. Succeeding would grant extra BP for the extra steps.]
(There's threads about similar solutions)
The goal isn't to remove things, it's to make things healthier. Slugging for the 4k was already a common thing, but it wasn't as prevalent and Mori animations weren't seen as a chore. This same mindset applies to countless aspects of the game but this one is currently making a big impact but could be turned into something good.
I'm sorry but I have never once slugged for a 4k just to Mori someone, I'm not interested in slugging for 4ks and I don't think most Killer Players actually are incentivized like this.
If it's really an issue just allow the Killer to Mori any one person per round that is on death hook and add better antitunnel. -
@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893129#Comment_3893129
"Hiding is genuinely legitimate gameplay, situationally. Similar to camping, tunneling, and slugging, it's perfectly fine in limited doses, but it's the excessive use of any of those, including hiding, that becomes a problem."
Yup. This right here is literally why we are even having this health update lol people take things to extreme and then wonder why the devs step in. There's a time and place for every strat, but some people are extremely stubborn.
And this is what sane people have beem saying for ages now. There's nothing wrong with slugging, camping, tunnelling, or hiding as a normal part of how you play this game. I'd argue it's fundamental TO the game. I'd say there's nothing wrong with a quick slap on the hook or a teabag once or twice either.
There is something very very wrong however with EXCESSIVELY slugging, camping, tunnelling, and hiding, all of which is done to literally give someone a bad time and therefore is griefing. And there is also something very wrong with EXCESSIVELY slapping on hook, shuffling over a downed bleeding Survivor for four minutes, and teabagging in the exit gate when you KNOW you're just doing it to make the other person feel bad. That's ALSO griefing because it's done intentionally to irritate the player and ruin their experience. Excessive BMing is griefing. -
@Gandor said:
I would agree with this, but surrender should not be a way for killer to deny survivors some points or MMR increase. It would promote bad sportsmanship (where killer will surrender ASAP before survivors get chance to escape just out of spite).
For everything else, I 100% totally agree and these are very good points. But this being so damn important was the sole reason I gave thumb down.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893091#Comment_3893091
You probably never went against bully squad.
They don't get fun out of winning. They get it by being paired against killer who is obviously way weaker then the group (because good killer can manage this easily and because the tactics is inevitably ending in survivor team loosing after very stressful match). The whole purpose for such suvivors is then to headon/flashlight (or flashbang) save killer as many times as possible. Dropping pallets, DS into blind into chain blind etc. Just making the killer's life as miserable as possible until all resources get depleted. By this point there's a good chance killer DCs never to return to the game again.
I think 10 minutes is probably not enough and 5 minutes would probably work better. Also hiding for 5 minutes (let alone 10) is hardly possible in current DBD.
As far as I can tell none of these changes appear to affect player MMR or points much, and people doing this sort of "watch me leave" antic are always obvious about it and doing it specifically to annoy the Killer. They would deserve the punishment of losing points, any achievements, MMR, etc.
I agree the 10 minutes thing maybe isn't super helpful, I don't encounter many SWFs that hide at the start all round. I'm kinda baffled by that idea actually… -
Not every perk has to work against every single Killer. Chase perks do nothing to ranged Killers, aura perks do very little to stealth Killers.
The same is true of Killer perks and powers. My stealth as Pig doesn't make gens not go faster, and my teleport as Dredge doesn't make Survivors heal slower.This is called a tradeoff.
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I'm getting pretty sick of winning a few matches and getting skyrocketed into the SWF and Nurses from Hell range on my poor Trapper or with my silly meme Nicholas Cage because I lucked into it.
Nobody wants matches that boost you by winning more than they sink you by losing. MMR shouldn't be exponential like this. Linear makes more sense. -
@PetTheDoggo said:
Issue is there are survivor challenges that need EGC activated and it would be very annoying if killer could just surrender at any point.
I don't think surrender mechanic should be able to hinder with challenges. This definetly would unless they bring killer bots, but that would be boring.
Then simply make it so the challenges trigger anyway, and this form of escape counts for the cheevo. Problem solved.
Nobody wants to watch sore winners rub salt in the wounds for 2 minutes, it's the exact same as Killers shuffling over four downed Survivors for four minutes, the same exact intent. I'm sick of pretending it's not. -
It's a horror based game, in what horror based game shouldn't the Killer end up winning more?
All BHVR has done in the past year is fix some much needed issues with Killers, make lower tier Killers more viable, tone down certain overly strong perks, and give Killers antigrief in the form of hook respawn (because people would overuse and abuse comp corners too much and no-hook zones). If that "makes it way too Killer sided" maybe it's a you issue because I still do fine in my Survivor games. I just don't win every round without thinking anymore because I slapped on a meta build.
EDIT: Downvote me all you like but it's the truth. Horror games need to have stakes. The Killers are the stakes in this one, therefore the Killer is intended to be a threat, so it makes sense to balance it towards the Killer winning a bit more on average. This shouldn't be up for discussion in 2025. -
@bazarama said:
I play ghostface a lot and indoor maps he's pretty decent but outdoor he sucks. Far too easy to take him out his stealth.
Thankfully I don't play that often and to the best of my knowledge haven't seen any cheaters.
Had games where gens went ridiculously fast but that could be just efficient survivors. Who knows?
Anybody over the age of 15 that cheats is just sad and pathetic.
Imagine feeling that cheating on a video game is fun. It's pixels on a screen give it up.
Sorry just remembered a game where first 4 gens went within seconds no way was that normal especially when 2 gens went before I had even crossed the map.
Didn't bother to do 5th gen. One just floated around on his invisible magic carpet instant healing any survivors I hit. And I mean instant.
The other 3 constant vaults and locker spamming.
I put on my music booted up my ps4 and had a round of everybody's golf.
I'm having fun whilst the sado's are still playing in a game going nowhere.
I flicked over between holes about 8 or 9 minutes later and they were still vaulting and locker spamming. Got to give them credit for the effort they were putting into cheating.
I just shook my head and returned to the golf game.
I will say with Ghostface in particular it greatly depends on the outdoor map, I've actually had good luck with him if the map is relatively dark, small, or both even if it's outdoors. He only really suffers for me on bright maps like Coldwind and Eyrie, and sometimes the Ormond Resort maps (he's fine on Lake Mine).
I don't think it's true he "only works on indoor maps but outdoor he sucks", it's just a little bit of a different play if it's outdoors. -
It's fair now. End of discussion.
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If you don't boost yourself with meta items, a 4 man SWF every round with comms, and your own meta perks, you will rarely see Killers that only run all full meta on Nurse and Blight. 95% of people just don't have this problem.
Beware the cinder in your own eye before the mote in your neighbor's, my friend. -
@CursedPerson said:
Yes but not in a punishable way more just frowned upon and i also think killers should not be able to see what items survivors are bringing
Killers need that information to plan around it because there are four people against them. They should always be able to see the Survivors they are against and the items they have to make a plan. Just like how Survivors should be able to see their teammates' perks and items to plan.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
We don’t know if the killer surrendering counts as a survivor win. The 1-hour timeout applies sacrificed marks to all standing survivors, implying that they lost.
Also, just because the killer can surrender, that doesn’t mean they have to.
I don't see why surrendering would be a win for the other side, or why it would increase MMR (be a win)…
I don't see how letting the Killer leave if the Survivors do nothing would be considered a Survivor win either. That seems more like a Killer win because the Survivors never engaged in the game or weren't enough of a challenge. In fact I'd arhue it is a Killer win, and it should pip everyone who didn't quit, but not raise their MMR, as a "sorry about that" measure. Just… one free pip.
HOnestly just make pipping braindead easy and points not be tied to it. You played the round through or had people quit on you? Pip. You DC? Depip. You win the round? Double Pip.
Easy as, no more of this byzantine system of counting how much you did in the game. Did you play the whole round, and did you get a 3k/escape through a hatch or door? That should be ALL that counts for a pip.