Kebek
Kebek
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I don't think you can extend the duration of one side's objective without directly touchning the other one as well. I'd be nice if all camping/tunneling stemmed out of the gen rush problem but it does not, besides the toxic camping/tunneling just for sake of toxicity (which is valid as well, just more boring), there are many other situations where killer can just chose to camp/tunnel only to crush survivors faster and more effectively.
Both of those scenarios would be significantly buffed with straight up second objective for both sides.
What we need is proper balancing of all maps and loops + the most important one = the spawn points need to be hard set and rebalanced for each map (in a way that stop survivors from instantly spawning on 4 seperate gens).
If all that is done and it still doesn't help with the game pacing. Then we can consider solutions that involve giving survivros another objective AND the same for killers, not exactly another objective but something that would made it much harder to just use camping/tunneling to get someone out asap for free while survivors are busy with their new objective.
Yes I know, survivros at top level have tools to counter camping/tunneling and have significantly easier time to finish their objective easily but we need to consider solutions that apply to at least your general average match where neither side has that big of an advantage over the other one, usually those are exactly the games where the better players win.
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People used to like wraith a lot more when he was weak and slow. One would think that more mobility would get survivors into more chases = more fun but it seems not. Weird how you like slow stealth killers but not the fast one (and then there's pig who needs to get nerfed more).
A pity how fast can opinion on "fun" killers change. Cool list nevertheless.
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It just keeps growing every year. Makes one wonder when . . . anyway
Cheers
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Devastating, need quick high priority fix.
- Message brought to you by Deathslinger foundation.
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People will say that's rewarding survivor's failure but I completely agree witth the idea.
It's not a pleasant strategy to be targeted with so giving some distraction BP to the camped survivor would really hurt nobody, just make everything better.
And no (if anyone wants to suggest it), killer doesn't need to be rewarded for failing (getting genrushed) as it's an asymetrical game and both sides don't always need to be measured the same way. Killers stays in match for the whole duration while survivors can be kicked out early thus different conditions for BP gain make sence.
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I'd be nice if that worked but it won't. Killing someone asap is essential when faced with strong survivor team as it gets impossible to defend few remaining gens vs 4 survivors in the mid-late game.
Nobody is going to care in the end about ranking but about the kills as even if you hook survivors 8 times but they all escape, you feel like you've lost completely. That's why people will always prioritise kills over hooks as it just feel right for killer to kill people, not just hook them.
The only way you can slow down the process of killing (if we exclude people who hard tunnel just cause ) is to slow overall game down for both sides. Some gameplay change that would prevent killers from killing survivors too early and also a change that would stop survivors from finishing too many gens too early. Both is a balancing nightmare so it won't happen.
Personally, I think matchmaking is the main thing to blame and the lack of information solos need to be on the closer level to SWF.
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With you it's always the same, hating on everything killers have while pretending all things survivors have are useless.
I wish I could take you seriously but it's impossible as you just don't try to view both sides equally.
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@Wavy said:
Keys are fine with its current state. Key escapes dont happen often. I dont understand why people hate keys so much and want it to get nerfed
Before the mori nerf I've seen about 1 ebony in less then 1 out of 20 games. They were rare and mainly taken when faced with SWF or rarely by a bit more spiteful players who had a bad game before.
Yet the nerfs happened anyway and were deserved as they were too strong. Same for keys, just because survivors suck at using them doesn't mean they're weak (same if old mories didn't get to be used because killer sucked, not the fault of the offering that killers fauil to use it), on the contrary, they're brokenly strong when used by a good survivor team. Just at the point where killer starts to snowball and win the match by killing 1 person, 3 other just passively escape becauses key let's them so for free.
They're unhealthy and as busted as old mories when used by non-vegetable survivors. They deserve a nerf.
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Wowie, must be hard to be you. You dislike basically 75% of all killers.
I just don't like hag and mainly trapper. Everyone else I either like or I'm fine with.
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2316999#Comment_2316999
True, we dont have data. But from what we hear, see and read, and i am sure you come around a bit aswell and therefor probably agree even you wont admit it, Spirt, Deathslinger and PH will take the cake with ease. Needless to say why that is.
I wonder, once most survivirs finally realise how to play against those killers (the very boring way by running straight ahead and pre drop pallets) will killer come here and complain about that? That this is unfun? I bet my money on that for sure.
I'm always for "some" rebalancing to appease the people with fair complains, as long as the changes are reasonable, never for ruining or completely reworking a fine working character like spirit, slinger and PH all are. Some need it more (spirit) others less (PH, sliner) but if all of them stayed as they are now, I'd be 100% fine with it as I enjoy facing all of them just the way they are now.
People always complain about everything they dislike, just now we're in the middle of "wraith is unfair and OP" + "holding W meta is unfair and OP" wave of complains. Just because they complain doesn't mean those are actul problems that need fixing. Wraith is finally a good killer and holding W is fundemental part of DBD since release, neither really should be touched imo as that would break more things than repair.
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2316884#Comment_2316884
You might be wrong with most of that, at least in my opinion, but you are right with one thing: Fun is indeed subjective. But when the majority dislikes a certain type of killer (and we should not fool ourself now, those killers ARE disliked the most) we should be free to say that this trend has to stop. Which is the point of the topic anyway :)
You're free to think so.
But, you have no actual proof that majority actually dislikes this certain type of killers. Just from this post you can see more people agreed with me then you (4 upvotes vs 13). Then there are streamers who said some of these killers were unfun and as it so happens, their communites parroted that opinion. And again, those streamer communities aren't in any way proper representation of whole DBD playerbase.
DBD has just recently reached what, 90k players peak. We have exactly 0 data on which killers does the majority of playerbase like or dislike, here on forums it's an extreme fraction of the playerbase.
There was never a full community survey on "which killer you like and dislike" so don't pretend like the opinion you present here is unanimously agreed by a majority of the playerbase.
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2314180#Comment_2314180
I think this is a very weak argument... "They stay interactive IF they make mistakes"... this can be applied to pretty much anything.
If one side has to fully rely on that the other side is doing a mistake we have a problem. And i am aware that this goes both ways.
The problem we face is, that the best strategy to win against those killers i mentioned are very very boring (okay, this is my POV but i can not imagine that hiding in a bush or predrop pallet and run is more fun then an actual chase), and we should all work on ideas instead of defending a role because we like them more (and want them to get buffed or whatever)
Stay objective please.
I am beiing objective though. Their powers aren't free "I win chase passively", that's what old Legion used to do and why he was reworked as everyone agreeded he was BS in a chase, these killers they have conditions to meet and require to properly use their powers to win chases.
Counterplay is there, it's very risky (vs the best chase killers) and not reliable and that's exactly as it should be. M1 killers have reliable counterplay as they can chase a very good looper for 5 minutes and not catch him if he plays out the map safely yet why aren't more people asking to remove all safe pallets from the game completely on all maps ? They're the same side of the coin that has 0 counterplay for M1 killer but for survivors but almost no one asks to fix them, yet they all want to ger rid of "unfair" chase killers.
These killers pose a risk and demand you to make a risky read on them to beat them, if you don't feel like taking a chance since you aren't confident in your ability to predict the current killer you face (either he's just too good at using his power or just plays unpredictably etc) you can play it safely and pre drop a pallet.
DBD forces players to make 50/50s in chase all the time, even against M1 killers in unsafe loops but there taking educated guess is ok while taking a 50/50 against a cornet shot vs slinger is somehow different. Please, don't be ridiculous.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. FUN IS SUBJECTIVE.
If you don't like some strong chase killers doesn't mean there aren't others who enjoy them. The killers are fine, not a single killer in DBD wins chases passively just because their power is too strong in chase. None of them need a rework, players just need to get over themselfs and realise that we all have different preferences and it's unrealistic to expet all killers to please everyone with their gameplay.
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So ? If you're falling for each raising of the gun, you're mindgaming yourself unnecessarily.
That's part of the power you can't get rid of unless you'd want to trash him or completely rework him which both won't happen. From medium/long range, you have enough time for slight strafe to throw him off without wasting distance, if you're close you're as dead as you would be againt nurse or huntress. Either way, you can't just dodge randomly but at the time you think he'll shoot, not each time he fakes it, it's a prediction, not a reaction like with M1 killers.
I get it, you dislike these kinds of killers which fine but their design isn't fundementaly broken in any way. You can always make an argument that this or that killer is unfair as long as they play perfectly which is about as rare as facing top 0,1% SWF, no killer plays perfectly.
I'll end it here since I think it's best to agree to disagree.
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2314058#Comment_2314058
You missunderstood that point.
A Blight or Oni can not only win chases, they are very powerful aswell. BUT and this is the thing, the chase stays interactive (which you cant say about Twins for example). Against a good Blight, the survivor can still win a chase by outplaying him - this is simply not the case against a Deathslinger. As soon as you are in range, you get hit, no matter what.
That is also why people seem to talk about "W Meta". Dealing with a Slingerish Killer: Press W as slong as it goes, drop the pallet.... repeate. No wonder that we have that now... with those type of killers. Because of interaction = loose survivor.
You are right with one thing.. we always had that in the past, but it is getting overwhelming now... AND like i said, the game is 5 years old, shouldnt they finally learn from their mistake?
Sure, it is my personal taste, but have you ever heard anyone say "Oh nice, Twins... i love chases against Victor, they are so much fun and interactive". I dont.
They stay interactive IF they make mistakes, same goes for slinger / twins. I'll just never understand why do people think that one strong chase killer can be outplayed while another one can't be.
What do you do in a short loop vs slinger ? You duck or stop at breakpoints where you think he'll probably shoot or try to mindgame with a pallet stun. Very risky and unlikely to be won by a survivor but that's because they're in a loop that favors the killer, once in shack or a jungle gym, it gets significantly easier as high walls allow you to stall him much longer if you undestand how he works and play your cards right.
What do you do in a sgor loop vs blight ? You pray to gods that he doesn't have direct close by rubble to bounce off (which at least 75% of the time he has) as that's give him a hit the same way slinger gets it, very favored towards him, 100% on him to miss basically. If he doesn't have easy rubble to bounce off, you loop him for 2-3 round, drop pallet, he breaks it and is instantly on you againt forcing you to dodge a rush attack that's extremly favored towards him. Again, in jungle gyms, shack etc, it gets fairer as those structures have more stuff to work with.
For both, the interactivity comes from predicting what they'll do which is hard and unreliable if they play well. Both have high enough skill requirements to not just get hits for free, just the mindgames looks different but in the end, play out about the same as their powers are very strong in chase when mastered.
I'll just never be able to agree with these statements that some strong chase killers are fair while others are unfair when their powers can earn hits about the same, just with a different flavor.
For me, they're all fun as there's nothing more boring then looping powerless M1 killer imo. I'll be glad to take and enjoy all the killers with active chase powers, be it slingers, blights, PHs, nurses or spirits.
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What ? You think Blight and Oni don't have the ability to dominate chase as hard as killers like twins or slinger assuming they play extremely well, just like correctly played slinger or twins ?
Of course they do, perfectly played Oni and Blight are just as impossible to beat in chase as is slinger. That's the thing though, nobody plays any of all the killers you mentioned perfectly, everyone makes mistakes playing them as their power's all have some weaknesses and require killers to outplay a survivor, they're not just a free "I win the chase pasively" like old legion was, they need to predict a survivor correctly or get them into unfavorable spot for their powers to work.
Honestly, people are just cherry picking which killers they don't like and tell their powers are problematic while ignoring the the same things for other killers they don't mind. Don't pretend like blight or Oni are in A tier or even S tier while beiing weaker in chase then killers like slinger or twins. They're not, in almost all loops, good blight can force a free hit if he's playing perfectly that requires survivors to make the same prediction he needs to do vs slinger, very reliant on killer failing at a mindgame that's in their favor.
There's nothing wron with any of these killers, some people don't like facing them, others do. All of them require intelligent imput from the killer to earn a hit and have limitation and weaknesses survivors can exploit to beat them even if odds are stacked against them (which makes it ever more satisfying).
I would agree that we've had a lot of chase oriented killers lately and something more original or just different would be nice to see but there's nothing wrong with them. Strong chase killers were in DBD since the beggining, that's nothing new and calling something "unfair" or "unfun" is a argument more based on personal preferences then actul objectivity.
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Yet so many claim keys are weak and don't deserve any nerfs. They're only weak if the team is weak and isn't properly using them.
I'd really love to see if devs have enough foresight to fix this with their key rework or if it's going to be a failure that won't address these issues.
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I don't really think it's a big problem, yes it's annoying but so is playing againts tunneling/camping which is also valid and doesn't need fixing. If you made holding W less effective, you'd need to add more loops to all maps and that still might heavily favor some anti-loop killers.
I'd say leave it be as it is. Fixing it would cause more harm then good.
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I'd say the problem is not in the game but in the players. Back in the day even when the game was more unbalanced, players were worse at playing optimally overall so it made games feel differently paced.
But with time people are slowling getting better and better and make matches more efficinte resulting in survivors rushing gens, holding w more often, looping safely etc and killers using their powers better, focusing out the weak links with tunneling camping and so on.
I don't think that can be fixed as it's just the nature of players has changed over the years, luckily new players are still coming in so some of that casuality is retained.
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Oh Sluzzy, you and your killrate balancing. Do you also want Nurse hard buffed then since her killrates are low ?
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Either my long craved wall climbing killer OR a killer who fully utilises the newly added AI, beiing kind of a puppeteer of some mininos that he needs to mirco manage over the map.
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Don't know, too afraid to test as I'll lose all my stuff again, having to reequip it. Probably not yet as I don't think it was in the patch notes.
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I don't get it either, killer is taking huge risk when he sluggs, if survivors pick each other up, he gets nothing.
Probably because sometimes it works and he manages to slug everyone due to their mistakes and wins instantly.
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@Terra92 I am making a change to them, one that balances them out from beiing broken annoying item into something that has uses but isn't OP like before while NOT scrapping entire mechaninc out of the game.
Ideas of full rework are all nice and dandy but anyone who thinks that devs will EVER, make a full rework of functional item that in their stats doesn't show any harmful data, is naive. I'm keeping it real.
@Munqaxus Most of the time, moring takes longer then actually taking a survivor to a hook unless it's miles away which is rare (also doesn't trigger hook perks) so by themselfs, they often affect killer's gameplay more negatively then positively. With perks, it's double crossed sword, you don't get hit by DS they might not even have but you also don't get to use pop etc.
They would still open the hatch but only after gens are done, allowing to bypass gates and also in a situation of last survivor alive which is the fair way to handle hatch opening. Most survivors already use keys in a way that they wait for others to die or if they die by chance they just take 100% guaranteed hatch. The only scenarios that wouldn't happen anymore is the the abuse to let 3 survivors escape for free after their mate died and they 3 genned themselfs.
All the ideas to rework keys are nice but not realistic, devs won't scrap whole functional mechanic of hatch opening just because. It just need some small tweaks to be balanced out.
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I used to never cleanse but then realised how BORING is to play that way. Giving her the corrupt purge and then juking her or pallet stuning her is so much more fun thne boring M1 chase with single health state.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2309197#Comment_2309197
Removing the key or nerfing the key so it's pretty much removed, invalidates 1/4 of the survivor blood-web. The key should be repurposed so it has an effect on the match similar to flashlights, Toolboxes and Medkits.
Also if the key has anything to do with hatches, the killer players are going to belly-ache so hard that they might rupture a spleen.
No, the keys should be as useful as mories are since that's their equivalent, not other items. No reasonable killer would care if keys opened hatch once all gens are finished since that only bypasses 20s of exit gate opeaning which is already undefendable.
And keys would still be good if you team has lost, you're last alive and killer closed hatch. You'd still get 1 free escape at a point where it's reasonable.
They would still have a lot of uses with change like this (arguable more then other items even) but wouldn't be bypassing main objective in unhealthy way anymore.
And the best part, all devs have to do is change single number of gens from whatever it is now to 5 on the hatch spawn condition (like they did to mories, iri heads etc).
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Too complicated, just make hatch appear after 5 gens are done (and when only 1 surivor remains) = FIXED perfectly.
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If you get hit 3 times with his bottle directly in a row, he gains special ability to instantly mori you with special belly crush mori.
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cry
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@OniWantsYourMacaroni said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2308352#Comment_2308352
The sad thing it would be so damn easy.
Just change the hatch spawn condition to either all gens are done or 1 survivor left in the match.
But no,we have to wait until they rework moris and keys as a baseline mechanic which will easily take another 6+ months
It's so easy they're too embarrassed to do it after they've already taken so long.
Insted they'll wait another year or two when they have 3rd mori rework ready and release some minor key nerfs that won't solve the big issues they have anyway.
What a joy it is to watch them hard at work.
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Neither side should be just passively stronger, having bigger chance to win matches overall. Better players should win more often, that's how it should be for both sides. Large portion of that is also map balance, if maps aren't balanced favoring one side too much, that isn't fine either.
Besides, survivors generally aren't stronger in average red ranks match, they lose more often (as you can see in the kill rates) which is caused by matchmaking, putting at least 1 bad survivors into almost every game, allowing killer to snowball the match. Here killers is usually favored to win unless he makes too many bad decision or if all 4 survivors know how to play their role which is somewhat rare.
Ideally, both sides should have about the same chance to win, making the skill and decision making of both sides the deciding factor in who's going to win.
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He's a stealth killer, the idea is to ambush survivors before they know you're there so they can't stun you with pallets or lightburns.
If you're actively chasing someone with a flashlight/flashbang while cloaked, you need to be ready to dodge it. You move at 150%, if you know it's comming, it shouldn't be a problem.
And besides, if you actually met any competetive 4 man SWF team, you'll lose vs them even if they're perkless and itemless so I wouldn't worry about that as problem there is far more complex. Vs your average solo team, those items don't mean much if you play wraith well.
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I mean, it is true tough. Don't you ever watch how most red rank survivors play, they're terrible, giving free hits, never doing gens or anything else useful, failing at basic looping and all the other stuff.
Besides, that doesn't mean they should just gid gut (well it kinda does but that's not the point), solo que should be brough closer to SWF in terms of information and game balanced around that fact afterwards.
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So killer should not lose BP is he fails to catch anyone and survivors just finish gens and leave ?
Should they be forced to willingly go down just so that killer can earn his BP ?
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That's because their game can't really go for the big horror lincenses, that's DBD's turf. Why would they go for less popular licenses when there are still so many bigger ones then those Identiy V has.
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If you don't clease, it's very simple question of how good M1 looper you and your team are.
If you do cleanse (which is what I do since not cleansing is just soooo boring), you actually realise that if you keep some distance between you and her, that power is not as insane as it looks. It has charge up time that slows her down and the projectile speed is very low, quite jukeable I dare say. Also every plague hard respects pallets since pallet stun remove her power.
I personally love the way she changes basic gameplay, probably one of the coolest powers as it changes basic gameplay far more then most other powers do.
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I doubt they'd do that. It'd be giving gen regression perks more synergy which they don't really like.
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It's a high skill to master, chase specialist killer who lacks at everything else. Of course he's going to be very strong in chase, if you want to beat him in it, you need to seriously outplay him with some insane reads, not just hope for the best.
I love playing him and facing him, much more entertaining then far more boring M1 killer gameplay.
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Well, hillbilly has a pickaxe, he can theoretically make a tunnel.
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You do the same thing you do vs all killers with strong chase power. You do your best to make correct reads on them, play greedily in safer loops, play very safe at unsafe loops and do the general dodges, predictions, crouches, basicallly all the mindgames that you have available. If you make a mistake and get hit, get as much distance as possible to waste more time of theirs.
His power is pretty fast but it has same weaknesses as huntress, Nem needs to take a 50/50 at each pallet once he's close enough to either his with his tentacle strike or walk trough risking a stun. Besies at a lot of loops, if he readies his attack too early, you get a lot of distance to make a another loop or just crouch the moment he shoots if the terrain allows is.
I've been having a lot sucess playing againt him chase wise. It's obvisouly partly because most nemesis players are new to the power but besides that, it has quite a few things you can do against it. A decent chase power but nothing too crazy imo.
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I ask you.
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Don't be ridiculous, neither side is somehow extremely hard to play or do well at. You average match of random killer vs random survivors is quite well balanced and better players usually comes on top.
Problems being when either sides begins to use top meta stuff against unprepared opponent. You average red rank solos just don't have good chance to beat good nurse or spirit, tryharding with best build and addons the same way average clown or trapper can't beat 4 man meta equipped gen rushing SWF of good loopers.
But that's asymetrical nature of DBD we all love/hate so much and keep on playing the role we enjoy, be it killer or survivor.
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Farmblems working as intended.
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@van9684 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2302505#Comment_2302505
I don’t think so. Until dbd addresses certain killer mechanics that are either busted or just unfair, they are begging for dcs. Games should be fun, not a constant grind of misery.
No killer mechanics are objectively unfun, everyone find different things fun and unfun. I for one love facing strong chase killers, spirit included and even when I agree with some nerfs, I'm 100% against many of the major things that very suggested to ruin her.
Besides, survivors have the same things that can be considered "unfun" which doesn't entitle killers to just quit without punishments whenever they feel like they're not having fun. Neither side should quit unless it's an emergancy.
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I mean, if they somehow made it work with the lore so it's not completely out of place, yeah it would probably fit just fine.
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@VESSEL said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2302505#Comment_2302505
I think everyone misunderstood what I was saying
I AM ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO HATES IT for christ sake. I'm just seeing a lot of high profile players support DCing
Sorry then I didn't interpret it right. My mistake.
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You'll eventually be punished with DC penalties so no need to convince you of anything.
DCing just because you don't like a killer is one of the most pathetic things I can imagine so feel free to do so till the game itself stops you. If everyone quit just because of some small thing they don't like about DBD, this game would be unplayable as everyone has something they don't like and meet regularly in their matches.
Luckily, most people have decency to play out games thinking about more then just their own fun, unlike you.
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@HATCH said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2299616#Comment_2299616
İt also can breake pallets a lot faster, can mutate and has a longer range and it slows him down Just a Lil bit you can still loop your tentacle out and still catch UP The survivors
Cooldown on the attack is 2,5s, pallet breaking animation is 2,6s. The only advantage there is the range for the breaking and the very very slight ability to move during the CD.
PH's base range is 8m at all times while also doing damage and moving at 110% while using the power.
Nemesis's mutation is a hinderance as it means he's significantly weaker during early game and usually mid game as wel before he reaches T3 which isn't even all that powerfull when compared to baseline PotD.
You also can't catch up to survivors with the tentacle charged up as you move at 95% while survivors at 100% with more slim hitboxes meaning you're losing a lot of distance.
You need to play him against good loopers to see that it's by no means some incredibly overpowered antiloop tool. It's decent but not amazing by any means.
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It's asymetrical logic, not saying I like emblems or BPs it this way but survivors and killers are completely different roles with different control over pacing of the match.
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It's also tiny, has lower range, doesn't do damage instantly, slows him down to 95% and mainly doesn't go trough walls.
Go figure why it has to have some other advantages over him.
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Unfun is subjective. Just because some people call some of those killers unfun doesn't make them objective unfun.
I love facing about half of the killers you mentioned and it's not like those are the only killers that appear in red ranks. From my experiences, all killers show up every now and then. It's very different for everyone which killers they meet.