KayTwoAyy
KayTwoAyy
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@[Deleted User] said:
The forums are mostly fine. I don't have any major issue with them. It usually feels like I'm shouting into the void, but that's ok. Everyone has their pet issue or lens through which they view the game, and it can be fun to predict what a post will say just from reading the poster's name. You probably do the same for me. If you handed me a sandwich, I'd still probably relate it to matchmaking and champion the need for separate ranked sandwiches.
The game is there. Solo queue matchmaking annoys me to an immense degree and I don't think scheduled losses add anything positive to the game, especially to an experienced player who can easily identify them. But it is what it is at this point. It seems like their heels are dug in on this one. Killer is kind of whatever. I'm at about 5k hours. I can sleepwalk and win the vast majority of my games. I wish it were more consistently challenging.
I stopped posting on this forum when I realized you express every opinion I have about the game in a way that doesn't run me the risk of getting banned for some smartass remark.
I've been letting you do all the talking for me for months now XD
@Iron_Cutlass to answer your question, I feel like the forums are dead. For many months I thought I was shadow banned—so many of my comments get 0 replies and 0 upvotes. I'm pretty stubborn, and I'm prone to overdramatization for literary effect, so I've also considered tons of users have blocked me.
I'm definitely not a bait poster, but I'm not afraid to defend some hot takes, so it's surprising how little engagement I've been seeing.
Shoutout to @solarjin1 for trying to revive my discussion on Unforeseen <3
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@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702599#Comment_3702599
Your graph is based on the assumption that most people will play within their intended modes and stick to that, while only a smaller portion will deviate from it.
It may look good on paper, however like all things that looks good on paper, it is neither a guarantee nor a direct reflection of what will actually happen, especially not when there is nothing stopping the comp player population from playing in casual mode the exact same way they're playing in comp mode just to have some easy games at the expense of casual players.
you're just refusing to accept the fact that there are a large population of players who enjoy playing competitive and will stay in competitive ad infinitum.
Why? Because it fits your narrative.
Every single competitive player that queues into a competitive game mode is one less competitive player that casual players encounter. It's not rocket science.
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@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702565#Comment_3702565
And making a competitive game mode won't stop sweaty comp players from going into the casual game mode for a chill and easy win, at the cost of the experience of all the casual players who were complaining about facing comp players to begin with.
and making a competitive game mode won’t stop sweaty comp players from going into the casual game mode for a chill easy win
And yet, when you split the two groups of players, casual players have a significantly smaller population of competitive players to worry about playing against.
The current system does not benefit casual players at all.
Key:
A = Casual Players who like playing Casual
B = Competitive Players who like playing Comp
BA = Comp Players who like easy wins
AB = Casual Players who like to be challenged
C = Gets drunk every Friday/Saturday night and doesn't care what happens because they are just having a good time with their friends
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@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702429#Comment_3702429
You're being naive if you think the average player won't take the easiest path over the hardest path when it comes to winning over other people.
Also fun and boring are both subjective terms, you may not find easy wins fun, but that don't mean that others will as well, especially not when it's such a common behavior for people in games to take the shortest and most efficient path to victory, especially when it comes to pvp games.
People pick meta perks because it increases their chances of winning, which is what the ultimate goal of the game is, something that non-meta builds don't provide nearly as much, which is why alot of builds consist of the same handful of meta perks more often than not. Solo Q is more likely to pick meta perks to plan for the worst since they're at a disadvantage, but swf are more likely to pick meta builds because it just makes their games easier.
I simply do not buy the notion that most people would rather play against other people of equal skill level over players who's skill level are below their own, otherwise people wouldn't be continuously complaining about the current mmr system being too sweaty and want the rank based matchmaking to return to this day, since you know, it's the matchmaking system that people claim made games much more chill for them simply because it came at the cost of less experienced players.
People are complaining about current MMR being too sweaty, because people who don’t play competitively have been forced to play against competitive opponents.
A competitive game mode significantly reduces the amount of competitive players the casual player will encounter
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@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702254#Comment_3702254
No more than the fact that like in any online pvp game, more than enough people will take the easiest route to win because (big shock) people like to win, especially if it's easy.
It's even reflected in meta builds, people run the same perks exactly because they're the currently strongest and most effective perks to use in order to win.
A competitive and casual queue will not work because most people will flock to only one of them.
Also last i heard, there are more casuals playing this game than there are people playing it competitively.
more than enough people will take the easiest route to win because (big shock) people like to win, especially if it's easy.
It sounds like you’re drawing the wrong conclusion.
Yes, players like to win. Yes, players like to give themselves the best opportunity for success.
But players do not like easy wins.
Easy wins are boring.
Players run meta builds for all sorts of reasons—easy wins least among them. Players who really want easy wins will derank and/or smurf.
Here are a few common examples of reasons players run meta builds:- Players want to play at the highest MMR, so they need to constantly set themselves up for success
- Meta perks provide fun gameplay, just as any other builds might
- Players plan for the worst, and want to be prepared for when their opponent is trying to take the shortest path to victory or is facilitating a miserable gaming experience
- Players just came out of some really rough games, and need more assistance to compete with their opponents
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@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701469#Comment_3701469
Except that isn't the solution either as most people would stick to whatever mode gives them the easiest win.
Except for the fact that there are tens of thousands of people like myself who would exclusively queue into competitive mode.
I don’t play casual in any game that offers a competitive queue, so I couldn’t tell you how many people look for low hanging fruit.But I can say that players who want to get really good stay in the competitive queue. Playing with casuals, when you want to show everyone how good you are, gets really boring really fast. Outplaying opponents who are actively trying to be better than you is infinitely more fulfilling than pub stomping someone who is hopping on the game for the first time in 2 months.
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I've been playing Freddy the past 2 nights.
6 straight 4ks with No Way Out, Terminus, Remember Me, and Fire Up. …I haven't even gotten value out of my build yet, I'm just having a blast with his base kit! 😂
I think he needs to be nerfed, ngl
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701871#Comment_3701871
Players going out of their way to make their opponent have a miserable time is not a big issue. Most of the time, people take their opponent playing to win as some personal attack on themselves.
Can you support this with data?
It's quite concerning to me that you would dismiss such an issue anecdotally.
@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701896#Comment_3701896
I mean it's not very different than making jokes about beating people up or joking about jumping off a cliff.
As someone who is quite sensitive to topics regarding SA, tbagging and the like never struck me as a direct endorsement of SA but simply an extension of non-verbal trash talk and so I never minded it and even tbag myself sometimes.
That's just how I feel though, clearly other people are different.
tbagging and the like never struck me as a direct endorsement of SA
The lengthy discussion we could have about desensitization aside,
I've always held a very playful opinion of tbagging, as it has proven to be a versatile emote that doesn't require the use of ugly HUD Wheels or hard to reach hotkeys.
That said…
Maybe you are not familiar, but some DBD Killers have taken to humping survivors on the ground since few Killers actually have the ability to crouch. While I applaud the first person to do this, for their creative problem solving, the visual is rather disturbing. It doesn't feel as playful as tbagging. I'm sure the humility aspect of Survivor plays into the emotional response here, but it is important to view something like this with context.
In a standard deathmatch, tbagging someone's body is tolerated because you have the opportunity to respawn and get revenge—not to mention how good it feels to watch a teammate obliterate someone who dropped their guard to dance on your body.A similar thing occurs when Survivors tbag the Killer. The killer has all the tools they need to get the last laugh.
But when a Killer demeans a completely defenseless Survivor on the ground? It is absolutely abhorrent.
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@Hex_Ignored said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701821#Comment_3701821
For a lot of dbd players, empathy is just the name of a claudette perk and nothing more
I wish I could like this comment a thousand times over. Very clever!
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@VomitMommy said:
What is my incentive to not tunnel or camp?
Because the pattern of behavior indirectly hurts your own experience.
As Survivor tolerance for tunneling and camping goes down, so to does their willingness to be an active participant in your game.
You would do well to remember that online gaming is a social contract, and your behavior online only benefits you for as long as others are willing to tolerate it.
Your aversion to social responsibility follows you around like a scourge, and should you continue to disregard the influence you have on others, you should know that you are directly responsible for many good things coming to an end; whether you feel it or not.
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My advice is to run builds you know are inefficient, but have fun gimmicks, and just focus on getting value out of the build.
When you run something that is supposed to set you up for success, and the game goes south, all you're left with is disappointment and frustration.
When you run a build you know is sub-optimal, you always have an excuse for why things didn't go so well, and you feel extra rewarded when the game goes in your favor.
Mentally, you want to move away from "winning is my goal" to "overcoming this challenge is my goal." Not only should that reduce your anxiety about the outcome of a match, but it should give you more measurable metrics for understanding what went wrong in the match and what you can do better to overcome the challenge next time.
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@solarjin1 said:
This thread desperately need to go back into rotation. This perk is broken against solo q as is. It right up there with background player, current UW, or ftp/buckle up. It Zero counter to this perk on indoor maps especially. Bubba isn't meant to be permanently undetectable!! You kick a gen, enter chase, and soon the chase over u back undetectable again. It stupid!!!! the cooldown non existing just like UW
I'm curious why this perk appears to be flying under the radar.
Thankfully survivors have a few perks (Spine Chill and Rookie Spirit) that can help to play around it, but I don't think we'll ever see a day where Rookie Spirit is meta
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@kisfenkin said:
Even when a killer plays fair, but wins, when facing a malicious toxic swf, that swf could rate them low four times in an attempt to make their matches easier in the future by weeding out the skilled opponents. The same is true for a killer getting stomped and upset about it, they could rate their opponents low, but they would have less influence being only a single vote.
Anecdotal fact: When matchmaking was based on rank, many players would DC to lose two pips just to derank fast, making them face easier opponents. Some would just play AFK, letting the game progress without participating so they would derank.
Personally, I don't believe the players can be trusted to manipulate matchmaking.
How would players endorsing a killer increase or decrease their chance of facing a player of a certain skill?
Social ranking and MMR would be two completely different grading systems.
You are suggesting that there is a correlation between skill and social behavior.
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@LeFennecFox said:
How would this even work? It would have to be implemented for survivor only unless you're suggesting killers just never find a game if they do well and survivors don't endorse them.
Well it'd start with a PTB—preferably several. BHVR would want to test against a control, and they would likely want to test 2 different samples (1 with player ability to see ratings, and one without) so I would suggest they test the feature over the course of 3 seperate PTBs.
It would be a player-based rating, not role-based.
It doesn't matter if you are Killer or Survivor, the goal is to cultivate a community of players who want to support each other and are active participants in creating the online culture they want to see going forward.
PTB 1
Notice to Players: "…we implemented an endorsement system that allows you to recognize exemplary players in the fog and reward them for being role models in the community. At the end of every trial, players will have the ability to award others with [insert jargon about the individual awards a player can be given—only one award per player or possibly only one award per trial]. Player endorsements are linked to your account, and are considered during matchmaking. Each time you search for a match, the matchmaker places you in a pool based on your endorsement rating. As queue time extends, the matchmaking algorithm will continuously expand your endorsement pool until you have found a match.
Test: New endorsement system will be implemented. Players will have the ability to see their own endorsement rating, but not other players’. During PTB 1, the matchmaking system will not be active—players will not be told that it is off.During the test, BHVR will monitor all necessary data (what awards are being given most, who is receiving them, and the outcome of a match relative to commendations).
After X number of games, players will be encouraged to fill out a BRIEF participation survey.PTB 2
Notice to Players: *Same as before + “player endorsement ratings will not be revealed”
Test: Everything the same as before, only now the matchmaking system is working AND it is leveraging that data from PTB 1, so that players are not starting at 0 endorsement ratings (unless they didnt participate in last PTB).If valuable insight was given after first PTB, regarding UI, Endorsements, etc., maybe BHVR considers implementing it between PTBs.
PTB 3Notice to Players: Same as Before + Endorsements will be public knowledge—everyone’s rating is visible.
Test: Everything same as before
Final survey will be released for feedback on all 3 PTBs.—
A few things to consider…
a) Maybe endorsement resets when ranks reset
b) Maybe only one award is given at the end of every trial—majority wins and tie goes to killer
c) Players would not be able to endorse those who they are queued withThe overarching objective with this, as I said above, is to place responsibility on the individual to contribute to the gaming culture they encounter.
Toxicity in gaming will never change until players feel the consequences of their actions OR they feel rewarded for being a decent human being.
If players want to be treated with respect, they need to treat others the same way. -
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3697022#Comment_3697022
Uh, what is the "reason" you've described, it's really hard to understand what you are even trying to prove
Sorry, thought I responded to this last night—must have signed off before sending my response!
"someone who want you to have a bad time", like can you elaborate what exactly is that
I could give dozens of anecdotes, but your best bet is checking out content creators who create videos about "toxic TTVs" or "salty survivors." Those videos should paint a pretty clear image of the vitriolic players who use DBD as an outlet for their own pain.
What percentage of the player base is made up of these people, I don't think we could possibly know. But no one can deny that there are players who are intentionally malicious and use the game to demoralize other people. It has been recorded, and it has prompted hundreds, if not thousands, of discussions on this forum over the years.
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@LeFennecFox said:
4k at 5 gens is not a common thing in my matches on survivor unless someone DC's/gives up first hook even then at least a few gens get done. You're the only consistent factor in all these matches so who knows.
You're the only consistent factor in all these matches so who knows.
…consistently sitting on the same gen being Pain Res, Popped, and Grim Embraced while my teammates fall like dominoes, yeah.
It's comical you'd come in here thinking you can talk down to me because I am the common denominator in my own anecdote; as if I was even capable of speaking on behalf of any other player's experience. No reason to be passive aggressive, unless my post offends you.
@Blueberry said:
I haven’t seen a 4K at 5 gens in hundreds of games of solo queue. Quite rare. This sounds like the matchmaking just may have been off. To not even get one gen before a 4K when in most games it’s 2-3 gens completed before 1 hook, those survivors had to be playing way, way worse than the killer.
I'll gladly turn on OBS next time I find myself in gen regression pergatory.
For the record, I'm less concerned with the scoreboard than I am with the player behavior behind it. Not much to celebrate about 4K at 4 gens, either—honestly, even 4k at 3 gens is pretty grim. But all that is besides the point; I don't expect anyone to believe I'm running into this "all the time," because I'm not.
BHVR has all the data they need to make balance changes without player feedback. They don't need me to tell them how many times I've died at 5, 4, 3, etc. gens. I'm trying to eject the human element into their decision making. I'm here to say "your data might please you, but players are still unhappy, and I believe this is one of the reasons why…" -
@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695781#Comment_3695781
Ok, I didn't really gather that from the OP.
Probably because I chose a headline I knew would drive engagement over one that perfectly articulated my opinion.
Elaborating off your initial response…Looking at all the games that end in 4 Kills at 5 Gens, we can assume that:
- X% happen because 1 or more survivors gave up early
- X% happen because of poor matchmaking
- X% happen because 1 or more Survivors made a serious misplay
- X% happen because the Killer made a very impressive opening play
- X% happen because the Killer intended to win as fast as possible
- X% happen because of a reason I'm not considering at this moment
None of these causes are mutually exclusive; i.e. a game can end in 4 Kills at 5 Gens because of poor matchmaking AND because 1 or more Survivors made a serious misplay.
My post is concerned with the second to last bullet, "…the Killer intended to win as fast as possible." The issue, however, is that we have no way of proving player motive. The only thing we can really do is look at the output of every trial and take note of whether or not the number of 4 Kills at 5 Gens has gone up in the past year.
So I pose the question, "how many 4 K's at 5 Gens will it take to move the needle?"
Personally, I am most concerned about the bullies who are empowered by the game's poor balancing.
"To use this mistake as a form of aggression, a form of succession, a form of a weapon, thinking 'I'll teach them…'"
- Tyler Joseph, Neon GravestonesI don't care if these players make up less than 1% of the game's population. Losing to someone who is significantly better than you is not the same as losing to someone who wants you to have a bad time. Players should not have to worry about encountering opponents who want you to have a bad time, they shouldn't have to carry a gun on them just to feel safe (to use another analogy in this thread).
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@Peachblow said:
As someone that plays both sides equally, I will say that 4K's are just so incredibly common now with how handicapped killers have become. Perks that allowed survivors to actually have a fighting chance have all been nerfed to the ground. I usually try and change my build on killer quite often, but it's typically the same cookie-cutter builds that are most popular that end up causing issues that OP mentioned. That would be something like: Resonance + Pop = 55% gen regression, now throw Grim Embrace in there or sometimes Surge/Jolt.
If I have an oppressive challenge that I need to finish on killer, sure, I might run one of those cookie-cutter builds, but man, it's actually insanely boring with how easy killer is running these builds. It's rare if I get a 2K or less with this build. Now, I don't intentionally tunnel, slug, or camp hooks for that matter. For someone that does, then yeah, you're almost guaranteed a 4K with that since survivors don't really have any counters to said things anymore.
The recent (mini)-patches and DLC saw some changes to Huntress (completely unneeded), the Clown (also unneeded), Billy (a change was needed, but now becomes too strong), as well as the introduction of Chucky and the Unknown.
Huntress: No "penalty" for missing hatchets anymore since she can equip up to 10 with add-ons making it a total crap-shoot. Good Huntresses spend less time going to lockers now and have even higher pressure from a champ that already had high pressure.
Clown: Same reasoning as Huntress really. No real penalty for missing his throwables. The Clown was already a pretty high-pressure killer.
Billy: Some changes were needed, but his ability to turn corners as well as he can is just insane. It renders Oni's and quite frankly Demo's rather useless. I'd like to see Billy's turn abilities tweaked a bit or perhaps remove the ability to instantly down someone in close proximity (i.e.: insta-down requires you to "rev-travel" at least let's say 12m for insta-down to occur).
Chucky: I'll give him a bit of slack. He's not inherently busted, but he has certain advantages that other killers down. Namely his size. You can't see him in maps with tall grass or lots of foliage (i.e.: Swamp, Badham Preschool, etc.). I'd suggest applying a subtle aura around him while not using Hidey-Ho to combat this.
Unknown: There's just barely any skill involved with this champion. Lobbing the "grenades" requires just a general direction and no real accuracy to hit a survivor. Teleporting incurs zero delays like what Onryo would experience. Survivors trying to dispell just get caught in the mini-cinematic should the Unknown teleport the moment his ability becomes active. I get this killer is new and new killers are usually over-tweaked to begin. I'd like to see the weakened state take less time to remove (or it will expire after say 30 seconds) to combat the lack of skill the grenades require and a 2 second teleport animation delay.
One more while I'm at it, Wesker: The only issue he needs fixing is his tentacle grab. There's still too many issues where he can grab survivors after they have vaulted, forcing them back on the side they were on previously (i.e.: as if the vault never took place).
And yes, again, reviewing the tunneling, camping, and slugging issues again. Camping is usually only apparent with killers that have range or some sort of dash. I'd say we should look at having base-kit Unbreakable and maybe even a longer Borrowed Time effect to encourage killers to complete the hook and focus someone new.
Some of these issues are certainly most prominent in solo-queue, but it's becoming moreapparent with SWFs now too and the comment "There is "playing the game," and there is "trying to be the only one having a good time."" is certainly becoming more and more true. I barely feel the urge to play either role lately because of how oppressive survivor is and how handicapped killer has become.
Thanks for taking the time to articulate your thoughts here!
I really like the way you breakdown some of the recent changes and new content. -
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695804#Comment_3695804
I'm stating PvP games are played with as much efficiency as possible from both side, generally
mmm.. not sure if I agree.
Sounds true, but even in competitive game modes I'm not so sure it's absolute.
Take the Killer roster for example; if PvP games are played with as much efficiency as possible, why would anyone pick the lowest tier killers? I'd conclude it is because people have preferences on playstyle.More likely is that people will play as efficiently as possible within their playstyle…but that doesn't mean they have chosen an efficient playstyle.
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695781#Comment_3695781
why are you playing a knife fight from the beginning tho
This is PvP game, right
Genuinely need me to answer this, or are you just hoping I'll say something ludicrous?
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@Mr_K said:
4k at 5 gens can mean a few things.
Survivors gave up early. Maybe a killer they don't like.
Match making fail.
Survivors were too busy messing around to stay on a gen.
Yes, and in the context of my post it means the killer brought a gun to a knife fight.
"Match-making fail" is relevant to this discussion. The other two would be considered off-topic.
@Krazzik said:
'the black of heart'. You know that a killer getting a 4k at 5 gens doesn't mean they're a bad person, right?
You're missing the point.
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Would like to see it reworked into a map-traversal perk.
Something like "sprint at 200% your normal run speed" when a killer is not within X meters.…though people seem so scared of Background Player right now that the synergy here would be too much for Killers to handle, despite seeming like two innocuous perks.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3693059#Comment_3693059
Yeah my escape rate has dropped drastically since update 6.1. I pretty much just play for tome challenges and events now. They provide the dopamine hit I need lol and I'll clarify that I don't need to escape to enjoy a game, but most games are steamrolls at like 4 gens left. The best games are the close ones, where you don't know which way it's going to go. So even if you die, the fun and excitement was there. This game used to be like that frequently but it isn't anymore. Best I can pinpoint it's matchmaking that needs fixing but who knows.
I should clarify… I don't need to escape to enjoy the game, either. I live for the nailbiters, of which they are few and far between.
As for tome challenges—not that you asked for my opinion—I think I have outgrown the battle pass/challenges era of gaming. Maybe it's marketing fatigue, or maybe it's my career in marketing that has me rejecting blatantly manipulative marketing tactics.
Whatever it is, I am so over studios wasting resources on consumer cash grabs. It is a vicious cycle.
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I'm sitting around a 20% escape rate with 3.3k hours in the game.
Down 15% from April of last year, and down 25% from 2022.
Dont think I need to say any more.
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2 v 2 v 1 King of the Hill/Domination
Survivors score points for the amount of time they spend working on generators, healing survivors, and unhooking survivors.
2 teams of survivors compete to reach a predetermined amount of points, while the killer acts as an agitator who is really just there to have a good time chasing and hooking survivors—not particularly concerned with the outcome.Survivors can't die, but the duration they spend on hook beyond 1min causes that team to lose points.
*Edit: I suppose if 2 survivors from one team are hooked at the same time, they immediately lose a set amount of points and can unhook themselves.Could probably even make it 3 v 3 with 2 Killers…
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@arcaneGospel said:
I feel like this entire thread's comments are missing the point, at least as I seem to understand it—OP is saying that the issue is that stealth killers have little to no reason to exist with such powerful stealth options available to every killer, stealth options that are often better than those of the stealth killers in question. Maybe I'm misreading it, but it seems more like OP cares that stealth killers are severely underpowered than that other killers have stealth options, Unforeseen is just so exceptional in this purpose that it highlights the issue.
And they'd have a point—Why, on earth, would you play a character with no chase power or map presence(ironically probably bar the Pig now), when you could pick one of the many superior killers with potent rushdown or macro abilities AND have better, almost faultless stealth?
[It bothers me greatly that at least one comment also says this is fine because stealth killers aren't fun, when perhaps that is the issue that needs fixing? Doesn't it make more sense to make those killers functional in the modern game rather than to replace their niche entirely with perks?]
issue is that stealth killers have little to no reason to exist with such powerful stealth options available to every killer
Precisely.
The issue is compounded by the fact that several killers can proxy as better versions of certain stealth killers with Unforeseen. So not only are better "stealth killers" now available—some effectively replace the playstyle actual stealth killers had to offer.
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689758#Comment_3689758
Today a game of the community cup was literally lost because a team messed up a background player play, so yes it can literally win games. In fact most comp teams use it as it is a guarantee save unless the bgp user has played less than 3 hours. Also you do not need a survivor trailing behind the chase to get the save you, the speed boost lets you get the pallet save almost across the map you just have to let go of the gen a little after your teamate tells you they will go down or you suspect they will go down.
Your anecdote proves my point—they ran BGP and still lost.
Also, I'm not interested in discussing game balance with respect to comp.@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689684#Comment_3689684
Imagine if you could only cleanse a Hex if someone were running a boon perk? Do you really think that counters should be based on perks? Lightborn is one of the worst perks in the game and remove one thing that everyone who wants to play killer must learn: how to deal with survivors with lanterns and pallet saves. Anyway, its not healthy to the only counter of one thing being ONE perk among the hundred that you can bring.
About the topic:
The problem is Background Player, not flashbangs. BGP needs to be reverted at least for the previous version before the buff. Its not just a perk that facilitates flashligh saves, but makes flash saves possible when they would not be possible otherwise. It don't have a clear counter for killers and its a very strong perk in SWFs.Do you really think that counters should be based on perks?
No, I do not. However, BHVR has communicated their design philosophy loud and clear, and I'm not in the business of offering suggestions the design team won't even entertain.
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@LeFennecFox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689726#Comment_3689726
Chase survivor for 45s to just give up and have wasted all that time. Survivors have the control to die on a pallet consistently and in a way that means a pick up allows both sides to be dropped. They get the gen pressure & you're denied a down lots of counterplay!
You're talking as if the survivor escapes through the exit gates every time a pallet is dropped on your head.
Of course your chases are going to be longer when a second survivor is helping their teammate extend the duration of their chase. They are doing so at the detriment of gen progress, so it's a net zero gain.
If a survivor intentionally goes down on pallet, because their buddy is nearby with BGP, I still don't see the issue. They just gave you a free down SOONER than if they were genuinely trying to outrun you.
Survivors aren't winning the game because of BGP any more than they did without it. It just sucks to get dunked on, and thats the real reason Killers have issue with it.
Don't live in absolutes, and it won't be a problem. Downing a survivor isn't the "end" of a chase—just part of it. -
@LeFennecFox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689684#Comment_3689684
What does lightborn do to pallet saves? They die on pallet nothing you can do against 5s 200% SB.
Why do you need an answer to every situation?
Survivor went down on a pallet—tough luck. Not like it happens every single time a survivor goes down.
Position your body so it is blocking the easiest point of access, and pick up the survivor. Sometimes a survivor with Background Player happens to be working on a generator nearby, but most of the time they were shadowing chase. I don't see the problem.
If survivors are giving up gen pressure for chase support, let them win some battles. -
Considering Lightborn hard counters the combo, no.
I'd say the problem is Killers feel like they can't run anything but gen-regression perks. …but honestly, I think that's a bad argument. Kill rates a very revealing. Killers can't be bothered to run anything that requires a modicum of effort, less they risk killing only 2 survivors every trial.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3680638#Comment_3680638
Put it on the flip side, if 4 survivors can't even get 1 gen done before one of them gets killed by the killer, the survivors are doing something wrong.
The simple fact is that tunneling isn't some problem that needs to be solved. Someone dying at 5 gens left is the fault of the survivors just like a killer not securing their first hook before 3 gens are finished is the fault of the killer.
Cleansed one totem, then sat down on this here gen and hit 2 great skill checks.
...but I guess I was doing something wrong, because it was mathematically impossible to complete a generator before Adam died.
Makes sense.
Corrupt Intervention, Grim Embrace, Pain Res, & Pop
We can't act like these perks don't exist when we talk about killers tunneling at 5 gens.
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Obviously the streaks ended because the Entity was Displeased.
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I feel like I'm late to this discussion...
Has there been any official statement made about the design intent on this perk?
I don't see a world in which this perk, or any invocation, is ever good.
Invocations are Territorial Imperative and an Insta-Down Killer away from being instantly obsolete.
Has anything been said about invocations? Can we expect that they won't be basement exclusive in the future? Maybe they have spawn locations on every map, and survivors with Invocation perks can hold down the secondary action button to reveal their locations? I haven't been following the roadmap too closely these days...
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Last night I looped a Trickster for 5 full gens (2 seperate chases, mind you).
The game was over in under 7 minutes, and not a single survivor escaped.
It is really difficult to provide any constructive commentary on gameplay when survivors make even the simplist of victories feel like an insurmountable challenge. The game can never be balanced when there are an overwhelming number of players who refuse and/or are incapable of using the tools provided to them.
Not everyone needs to be amazing at the game. ...but it is truly surprising how few people can put forth minimum effort.
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This probably isn't true, but...
I feel like the anti-camp feature has incentivized killers to camp. Where once there was no skill expression, there is now a new feature for Killers to learn to play around. As a result, players have preoccupied themselves with learning the limits of the new system and finding ways to "out-play" it.
Camping & Tunneling have always been prevalent, so its hard to say whether or not it's gone up. I just know my tolerance for it goes down with each game.
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Actions speak louder than words.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659783#Comment_3659783
It's a bit more nuanced then that. I'd a survivor gave me a good game, some fun chases and then kobe, I still nod at them and let them off the hook, but I expect them not to unhook the others and will chase them and shake my head. Sometimes you see them plead for a certain survivor, probably their duo SWF friend, and I usually allow that unhook, too. But if they start to unhook unconditionally, then everyone is fair game.
BUT (here comes the but) 9/10 of the time it's that obnoxious survivor that t-bagged and flashy clicked you at every opportunity and really was a log between your legs the whole game, that miraculously pass their 4% chance and you can bet your ares off that I'll hunt them down and put them on the hook again.
In the end, kobe is a hope mechanic that is in the game to offer survivors at least a small chance in unsurmountable dire situations, but the chances are actually not that bad when you got a "Myers/Oni downed everyone at the exit gates" situation, that was a stellar play of the killer, and then they get shot in the leg by the 4%, that feels really awful and unearned: survivors massively misplaced, yet get off the hook, literally, by the roll of a die.
Just imagine if a killer had a 4% chance to instantly down and mori a survivor, if they got less then 3 hooks and the EGC starts. People would bemoan this lucky hope mechanic rightfully. But on the other hand, it happens so rarely that my whole match devolves around one lucky kobe, and killers are in such a good spot generally, that I actually don't mind enough.
Wish I got you as my killer more often 😭
Seems like every time I have an incredible game, I 4% into a killer who lets one or more survivors bleed out while I run them for another 4+ minutes, praying hatch spawns favorably.
Naturally I make a comment in post-game chat, and am swiftly reminded that I was "outplayed."
Killer has its moments, but it really feels like people are completely oblivious to how demoralizing solo survivor can be.
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To address the concerns people have about "they'd just pick a 5th meta perk," I would be interested to see a weighted system, in which Killers and Survivors have a certain amount of points they can spend on their build.
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@concubined said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652577#Comment_3652577
You’re actually God sent I appreciate your help so much, idk if this isn’t too forward to ask on forums but would you be down to be friends? I would love someone that’s so knowledgeable about a game that I’m starting to be passionate about in again.
As for the build I think it’s definitely creative and can be oppressive with some luck but I’m still making the transition from using 4 gen control perks to a more gimmicky build. So far I’m really happy with results and I’m having fun but sometimes it does feel like my survivors are slipping out my hands. I posted like two videos running this build on YouTube by the same name as I got on here because it was exciting when things worked perfectly. But I had one unposted game where I still had 3 survivors alive at 1 gen which was not something I am used to at all and Starstruck clutched it up for me.
I'm definitely on the outs with DBD, but I'm more than happy to watch your vids and workshop ideas with you!
I'm the type of player to actively avoid meta gameplay, so I like to believe I'm well-versed in extracting value from underappreciated features. I'm also a strategist, so I genuinely enjoy thinking about the game from all sides.
I'm comically bad at Spirit, but I can see why Awakened Awareness is a better perk on her than most other killers.
Regarding my latest suggestion, Sloppy would probably be a much better perk for Spirit than Spies, but in the game I ran with Spies I found it pairs really well with Awakened Awareness.
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@concubined said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652516#Comment_3652516
I really loved your insights and wisdom on the subject I didn’t know starstruck was so versatile. I also never thought to use grim embrace the way you suggested, I recently came back to the game after being off half a year so I’m unfamiliar with the AFC system they implemented but I have used grim to make sure I was out of the face camping range.
I play spirit loyally so I wouldn’t benefit from the stealth that Trail of Torment provides but ya the downsides of Awakened Awareness you mentioned have happened to me before but so have the opposite where the survivor does not know I have it and just stay thinking they’re immersed and I phase right on them for the quick down.
And of my play style, I’m everything the community deem as taboo and stigmatized. I tunnel one person out as early as I can and just clean up the rest is usually my game plan. Not sure if you have recommendations as to how I can fit that around a build like this but I’ve had survivors trying to prevent the tunnel out giving me starstruck value. I also have been slugging more than usual after using this build, it feels optimal.
I completely overlooked the fact that you were running Spirit! I saw Wesker's face on Awakened Awareness, then his name in your comments, and the rest was history 🤣
In that case, you should totally explore the synergies with Awakened Awareness some more!
I want to recommend this, but I have to admit I've never run this exact build. This is more of a theorycraft, but I will run it now so I'm not making you the guinea pig hahah
The idea with this build is that you're always chasing an Exposed survivor. Starstruck disincentivizes survivors from unhooking before you leave Make Your Choice range, while Awakened Awareness gives you the free down if they try anyway. Monstrous Shrine is the obvious headturner in this build, but I swear it is not a meme. The accelerated hook timer from Monstrous Shrine directly conflicts with Exposed survivors' desire to play it slow and stealthy, opening the door for more survivor mistakes.
I'm going to give this a go with Chucky, and I will report back after a few games (:
EDIT:
After 5 games, 4 were absolute blow-outs. The 5th was a 3k, but it took me 3 gens to get my first down--not sure if I was outclassed, or outplaying myself. MS forced a survivor to second stage twice, and I'd say Starstruck and MYC split the Exposed downs 50/50.
Biggest issue with the build is the potential for MYC and Starstruck to both be on cooldown, but that's a byproduct of building too much pressure, so it's not a huge setback.
If I was to swap out Monstrous Shrine, for something with more consistent value, I'd replace it with Sloppy Butcher or Spies from the Shadows.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/405605/how-s-this-build
No gen defense means you are gonna lose most games against any decent team. Also its one of those builds that, as soon as survivors know what you are doing, it is super easy to counter.
Not sure how much experience you have running Starstruck, but it is a perk you can force value from, by tactically choosing which hook to put the survivor on.
The indirect pressure created by Exposing survivors around a hook and 2 gens is just as strong as a quick down due to Exposed.
@concubined I've 2 recommendations depending on your preferred playstyle....
Optimal:
Agitation, Iron Grasp, Starstruck, and Grim Embrace
Your post-hook strategy should be to force survivors off any nearby gens and lock down all paths to the hook. You always want to carry survivors towards two gens that are close together, with the hook preferably in-between. Use Grim Embrace to tell you the anti-camping range. If able, hang around 12-15m for a while after hook, to delay Grim Embrace's effect--you want to create situations in which survivors need to hook bomb to avoid second stage (the later Grim Embrace activates, the less likely survivors are able to finish repairing their generator AND go for save).
You win the game by creating situations in which survivors cannot avoid Starstruck, and have to respect the threat that it provides.
Casual:
Agitation, Starstruck, Trail of Torment, and Nowhere to Hide
You will want to carry each survivor as close as possible to whichever generator you know is being worked on, then rely on Nowhere to Hide to find survivors while Trail of Torment gives you the drop on them. I find that Awakened Awareness leads me on wild goose chases for survivors who moved from their original hiding spot--Nowhere to Hide provides information when you need it, while you have the ability to act on it.
All-in-all, I like the build. Happy to see someone else is having fun with Starstruck at the moment
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I've encountered 1 Skull Merchant in the last 3 days.
Doesn't sound like my experience has changed because of the data (I was expecting to see more Freddy, tbh).
I will say, although anecdotal, that I used to frequently encounter players running whatever Killer/Build a top content creator most recently released a video about. I definitely believe the community is heavily influenced by trends, especially when it's low-effort.
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2020-2021 Tryhard Era
Crossplay was released, but I was fully convinced that PC players were superior.
Regardless of whether or not that was true, other people believed it, which meant turning off crossplay would land you with PC players sweating their butts off. It was a tryhard's paradise.
Every other game was a cracked Blight, who made you absolutely hate your life, but you wouldn't be playing PC-only if you weren't looking for a challenge, so you endured. As Killer, every game was an uphill battle, but again... you weren't playing PC-only if weren't looking for a challenge, so you endured.
For PC players, turning off crossplay was a proof of concept that seperating DBD matches into ranked and casual was a good idea. PC-only lobbies was high MMR before SBMM was introduced, and it was fulfilling to know that everyone else in the lobby was playing with the same mentality, even if you weren't all of equal skill.
If I could turn back time to replay that era of DBD, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650972#Comment_3650972
My read of the OP's message is more of "Don't blindly follow the stats, ask the 'why'". While the kill rates may be accurately in the 60% range, how many of those kills/escapes were because the Killer let the Survivors go/Survivors refused to leave and died to endgame collapse, and does the system account for that? (rhetorical)
Also with DCs not being counted towards the stats, that creates another mismatch of player experience and data. The 3 remaining Survivor players have to finish playing out the doomed match, and hate every moment of it. When we are told "DCs aren't tracked" along these other (varying levels of) common player experiences, we instead interpret the message as something like "LOL sucks to be you, because that isn't real". Having a 'with' and 'without' for something like DCs helps that significantly more.
DCs are also a clear player experience message (in the current system). If someone is willing to soak an escalating penalty and still play, that means that particular experience was so bad and the game at large isn't at fault. If they stop playing after the DC though, they might just be going to bed. If Joe-Schmoe DCs against every Nurse, they are sending player feedback that Nurse is the problem, not the game. If we are told DCs aren't tracked, we are told (some level of) player feedback is ignored.
When someone says "I feel like the 'true' escape rate is 20-35% because I include when the Killer farms us (2-hook release) and matches with DCs", the 'why' is clearly stated. When there is such an extreme mismatch of player experience and data (like OP's 'true' 26% escape rate), it lowers faith in the game's integrity. Player experience shouldn't be this far divorced from the data, or that causes people to believe the dev team to be out of touch. The targeted 60/40 feels much different for the 3 Survivors with a DC, as they can't just toss their experience to the wind, unless there is a system implemented to allow for unpunished DCs in matches where a DC already happened. In other words, data collection should as closely match player experience as possible. (So either count DCs, or let us quit after someone else does please.)
Side tangent, feel free to ignore, its more for the thread in general
{
I have seen 3 major DCs: Killer recognition, tilt-ragequit, and stop wasting my time. Killer recognition is simple, see the Nurse example above. Tilt-ragequit and stop wasting my time both have some overlap though. A turbo-tunnel off hook is a bit of both for example, as the Killer clearly didn't want the Survivor to play the game, so they go out on their own terms. An exclusive tilt-ragequit is failing a vault or mindgame or stun mid-chase. An exclusive stop wasting my time is bleeding out/slugging for the 4k.
Before MMR, I near exclusively 2-hook tango'd, or hooked each Survivor twice then let them go. I quit the game (in the hopes that it will get better in the future), but if I return, I will refuse to kill Survivors as long as MMR is as sweaty as it still is at this point. If I return, I will be 'stacking the deck' in terms of kill rates, where the Killer wins in reality, but the Survivors win on paper. If everyone learns this is the only way to have fun, then no stats will have meaning, and MMR will fail at its intended goal.
Similarly Ghostface is low in kill rates, but the 'why' is likely people play him as an M1 Killer instead of a macro 99 stalk all players style. (At least that's how I had significantly above average kill rates with him as my main.) If players start to play Ghosty 'right', would his kill rates raise significantly? Probably not, because too many newer players will still think "Ah cool Ghostface", and still play him as an M1 Killer.
}
If you are seeing this message, and you haven't read the comment I'm replying to, do everyone a favor and give it a read.
@mizark3 expertly articulated what OP wanted to convey while offering valuable insights into the conversation.
I've nothing more to add to the conversation at this time--please please read mizark's remarks before offering your own opinion.
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@HaunterofShadows said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650258#Comment_3650258
Well at this point, a quiet place, outlast, amnesia, the IT movies, have all been around for more than 5 years, with a quiet place approaching its 6th year. Other licenses that come to mind include the conjuring and insidious. So I still feel like there's a good amount of license they could add, even with a self imposed 5 year rule.
I would be very interested to see if BHVR would buy the rights from King to do their own designs for IT, or if they would borrow the likeness from the movies.
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License needs to be at least 5 years old, otherwise it doesn't feel genuine.
I think Stranger Things was acquired a little too soon, and that is in part why BHVR lost the IP for a period of time.
If it feels like BHVR (or any game studio) is just trying to jump on a trend for their own gain, it devalues that content. In an effort to create something truly timeless, I believe it is important to let IP's exist on their own for a period of time, so that the collaboration feels like one of mutual appreciation.
Ideally, both parties are choosing to come together not just for monetary gain, but because they both truly believe that they can add value to one another through the partnership.
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"Working with the Killer" is against the rules, but Survivors arbitrarily deciding to hide and wait for hatch because "it's their only way to escape" is supported by the devs and members of the community.
Make it make sense.
Wolf in sheep's clothing. People need to stop justifying hatch on account of other design flaws.
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GG is not inherently toxic, but I personally do not believe it is an appropriate thing to say at the end of a typical DBD match.
Dead By Daylight is a game of momentum. The survivors start with it at the beginning of the trial, and it is the Killer's objective to gain momentum as fast as possible. As such, one side is constantly feeling as though they need to work harder than their opponent.
In other words, players very rarely feel as though the game hangs in the balance--as though the lead is being passed back and forth--and they rarely feel as though their opponent adjusted the intensity of their play to match the urgency of any given moment.
None of the above statements dictate whether a game is objectively "good," "evenly matched," "hard fought," etc., but it takes a certain level of self-awareness to recognize that the nature of DBD means the losing side will seldom feel as though a game is evenly matched.
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@Pluto_1 said:
We can kick a gen only 8 times now and you're still in here complaining about removing tapping. Tell me, what will make you happy?
Not putting words in my mouth would be a start.
I don't recall mentioning anything about gen tapping. You in the wrong thread?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641603#Comment_3641603
If that killer 3-gens, but that's kind of what the system is for, no?
@tjt85 asserts that 3-genning is the natural way to play Legion to the best of that killer's ability. I don't play much legion, but I can reason out why that is the case.
If a Killer who already struggles is having their most effective gameplay strategy removed, it is worth bringing to the attention of the developers.
I'm not necessarily here to argue good or bad against the changes. I'm observing what I believe to be an unintended nerf to survivors, but it is interesting to see which killers this specifically makes more difficult to play.