KayTwoAyy
KayTwoAyy
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@tjt85 said:
I experienced the new anti 3 gen feature in action yesterday (a Legion match on RPD). The Legion are a great killer to test this feature out because forcing Survivors to be near to each other by holding a 3 gen and winning the battle of attrition is really the only thing they excel at (they have several add-ons to help with this: Filthy Blade, Fuming Mixtape and Frank's Mixtape). They are a very weak Killer, otherwise.
RPD is (or at least used to be) a very good map for Legion. It's relatively small and often spawns close together and easy to defend gens. In this match, I got two in the main hall and a couple in nearby rooms.
This was a close game against a flashlight squad that could have gone either way. They played exactly as you might have expected, making far too many flashlight/sabo/body blocking attempts and it cost them the win. I think I would have lost against a more gen focused team. They had 2 gens almost ready to pop and as you can see from this image, I had already burned through all my regression events on this gen (luckily I had secured my first kill just in time):
Here's what I've learned so far:
- The 3 genning strat has definitely been nerfed. But it's still possible to defend a 3 gen even if you can't regress a gen anymore.
- It feels more important than ever to secure an early kill, now that I Know I won't be able to fallback on defending a 3 gen situation.
- Surge has been nerfed with this update. Hitting multiple gens in a small area is what it does best, but maybe not so much now. It was scary how quickly it burned through all my regression events on a gen. I'll probably keep using it, but I think plenty of other Killers will opt more for passive slowdown or gen blocking now.
- It has impacted "normal" Killer game play for me. This time I won, but I might have to rethink my strategy if I start losing games. Overall, I'd say it's a nerf to Killer (with gen tapping gone and extra regression as a fair compensation).
So in summary, we nerfed one of the worst killers in the game.
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@GeneralV said:
It is not exactly a nerf, per se. It would be impossible to add an anti 3-gen mechanic with gen tapping still around.
But you can still escape just fine, of course. The new Grim Embrace + DMS meta is the actual problem that has to be addressed, imho.
The problem I'm noticing is that Survivors being pushed off gens before they can stop the regression event and/or greeding the gen to stop the regression, then going down because the Killer was able to close the distance, is happening with far more frequency than games in which the Killer just locks down a 3-gen.
It's a net negative for the Survivors--the average match for Survivors has become more difficult, at the expense of being aided against 3-gen situations.
I follow all the logic that led us to this point, but my observation thus far has been that Survivors got the short end of the stick here.
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@CountOfTheFog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640603#Comment_3640603
Not this time. They actually went out of their way to avoid those types of challenges which is great! The challenges are easy for Survivors (and Killer) and just pretty much require normal gameplay for once.
You're right, they're all pretty easy. ...well sort of. I just failed to consume 1 toolbox, because I was immediately tunneled out of the game 😅😓😖😭
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I would place my bets on the archive.
I haven't looked over what the current challenges are, but the archive is typically to blame for self-sabotaging behavior.
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Anything other than removing the timer shall be viewed as a hate crime towards solo survivors.
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As a solo survivor, I feel like nothing I do has any impact on the outcome of a trial. That for me kills the game.
I don't want to be handed free wins. I don't want to be some sadist's plaything. I want to make meaningful decisions that have a noticeable impact on the trial, even if they don't always provide the desired result.
As a killer, I feel like my opponents are seldom evenly matched. That for me kills the game.
I don't want to pub stomp some strangers who are looking to have a good time. I don't want to camp and/or tunnel because the survivors came prepared for full meta when I'm not even running gen slowdown.
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Queue times are lightning fast.
Every killer tonight has camped and tunneled.
I'm experiencing horrible trials at a record rate.
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@Alen_Starkly said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638049#Comment_3638049
There is a whole right side of the screen that you could perhaps use for the limited time modifiers?
Not without changing the entire homescreen background.
This is a compositional nightmare:
The route they went with is far less work than designing a new homescreen that manages to frame every killer staring at the survivors from a distance.
Admittedly, I don't love the existing background but I know why it exists.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I'm not a dev. I will admit that it's probably more difficult than I give it credit for. But, you ostensibly have a team that discusses perk changes and balance. Within the last year, Eruption was nerfed because of its Incapacitated effect. Given that context, I don't understand how Grim Embrace+DMS even makes it to a PTB, let alone goes live. Did nobody bring up the striking similarities to Eruption?
I've never worked at a game studio, but given my time in a creative studio I will say that office politics can absolutely destroy the creative/design process.
At the end of the day, this is a job for the people at BHVR--if someone at the top is making it difficult for the designers to do their job to the best of their ability, they will stop trying to do the job to the best of their ability.
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Alan Wake? More like Alan 😴
jk jk, i don't know anything about the IP and his perks don't interest me at all--first time I can't see myself using a single perk from a DLC. I definitely won't ever be picking up Walmart Keanu Re.. I mean, Alan Wake 🙃
Personally, this collab only benefits Remedy Games, as I'm now likely to play Alan Wake...though no promises, because I've been wanting to play Control and still haven't pulled the trigger on that one
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As a graphic designer, I'm most frustrated that it doesn't function as a collapsible menu.
I understand everyone else's complaints, and there is definitely something to be said about the number of menus the average user needs to navigate through just to play the game... But because it's intuitive, and expandable menus are extremely satisfying to use, the change would be much better received if there was real feedback to clicking PLAY.
The menu animation is somewhat jarring and unnatural. Contemporary design has conditioned us to expect that interface to expand without first fading out and then back in.
I'm not exactly sure what is planned for the future, but it looks like a generous amount of space has been left for the menu to expand and collapse without removing THE ARCHIVES or STORE.
Just my 2 cents.
P.S. Please take my resume, I'm looking for work XD
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637582#Comment_3637582
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/S6QH1Z0FDVQS/screenshot-from-2024-01-29-20-49-02.png
I got 9 Hooks but Prayer Tablet costed me so many potential downs. ):
Your build is: Wraith ("All Seeing" - Blood and "Windstorm" - Blood) ~ Coup De Grace, THWACK!, Dissolution, and Sloppy Butcher.
Dang! It's definitely a different win condition with that build!
It's my favorite Plague build because I feel like her power is clunky and unpleasant to use mid-chase. I think it also hits that gen-defense playstyle that Skull Merchant was originally designed around, without feeling incredibly unfair to Survivors. I don't mind playing a purely M1 killer, and that is more or less how I play Plague in quasi-stealth that build.
I'm not sure what the deal with Thwack! was--probably my first time using the perk--but it did not activate once. I kicked a ton of gens, often with a Survivor recently hopping off of it.
I also didn't get an value out of dissolution, but I did not need to as Ada threw every pallet on Shelter Woods in the first chase.
10 hooks total, Yui ended it on second hook so Claud could find hatch. Fun match, down for another rec
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Plague (Prayer Tablet Fragment and Hematite Seal) - Play With Your Food, Hysteria, Hex: Face the Darkness, and Corrupt Intervention
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SoloQ's biggest problem are the people who play survivor.
Survivors, whether intentionally or unintentionally, frequently reinforce negative killer behavior.
We see all these complaints about camping, tunneling, etc. and yet an overwhelming majority of solo survivor will throw themselves at the killer in these situations, rewarding them for the behavior. Of course they will keep doing it!
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This is one of those changes that very clearly was intended to incentivize hooking everyone once, but will end up making tunneling even stronger.
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I personally don't buy into the idea that players would leave Steam to play on other systems.
I'm not saying it can't happen, but there is no significant driving force that should be causing Steam players to move platforms by the thousands. So while everyone is free to draw their own conclusions, I suspect console's YTD data looks very similar, albeit at a much larger scale.
Below is Steam Chart's player count data since the release of Nemesis (arguably the peak of DBD). Unless the game was to be a meteoric hit following Nemi's release, some fallout was expected after that time. However, it is interesting to note that the numbers just keep falling.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636655#Comment_3636655
You keep mentioning how you can outplay the blight, but why couldn't your teammates? You could infer that the blight is better than them and deserves the kills, especially since he had one out before a single gen was completed (hell, based on the screenshot it looks like there isnt a single gen past 50%)
If you're really good at wasting the killer's time, you should be doing that from the start to buy your team as much time as you can. If they ignore you, you should get gens done while he goes for someone else. Not saying this game was winnable, but you could have certainly done more.
This is pretty disingenuous...
Surely no one here has to explain to you the possible scenarios which could lead to this post--none of which would objectively come back as being OP's fault. It would be foolish to assume you've never found yourself in OP's shoes in all of the hours you've played DBD. Unless, of course, you have never played Survivor.
"Focus on generators, and leave your teammate on hook for as long as possible each stage" would have been a more genuine response, because the reality is that there is little anyone can do about the situation as a whole, but there is definitely something everyone can do to make sure they aren't making the situation worse for them and their team.
@mikewelk no single survivor can "fix" this problem. You all need to do your part, and at least 2 of you will escape. If even one of you waivers, no one escapes
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Knight. I haven't seen them in a year. XD
I haven't played in 8 months, and came back while he was deactivated.
Seriously though, Twins, Singularity, and Freddy.
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@Shirtless_Myers said:
Solo queue is treated as fodder for killer win rates because the developers think it's great game design to balance the game as a 1v4 but treat it as a 1v1v1v1v1. Matchmaking is also fairly terrible, as they focus on speed rather than accuracy when pairing players. Generally, it's a complete loss to play the game solo, and the devs think that's fine.
Unfortunately, I've seen a few people on the forums here who also believe it is a good idea to treat the game as a 1v1v1v1v1.
Solo Survivor is helpless.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633633#Comment_3633633
But there is a difference between suggesting an overhaul and suggesting a removal. BHVR will never remove a character that people paid for and then refund everyone, that is simply unreasonable.
The most extreme thing that can happen to Skull Merchant is the Freddy treatment. And while his rework was the worst change ever made to this game, at least in my honest opinion, maybe SM would be luckier than the Nightmare was. Or maybe not.
However, asking for a character to be removed from the game won't take us anywhere.
There is something to be said about an annoying amount of people asking for a feature to be removed.
Sure, it's not exactly constructive criticism, but even shallow, emotionally-charged feedback can be constructive.
It is the responsibility of no one on this forum to find solutions to the game's problems, and while I think we can all agree that problem solvers are more helpful than complainers, the least anyone can do is express their opinion on the state of play.
"Rework X" doesn't convey the same thing as "Remove X." It is important to consider the implications in that distinction.
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It's not individually strong, but it is definitely a more reliable addition to gen rush builds than Hyperfocus or Fast Track.
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To comment generally... the game has a really interesting way of making you feel like each side is incredibly underpowered.
Momentum plays such a big role in the outcome of many trials. Sometimes perks determine whether or not you can keep momentum, sometimes it's the Killer's power. Either way, its frustrating to feel like you dont have momentum
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
People hate her because they don't understand her counterplay + they hate her because of her past.
You can avoid her drones in many ways and even in chase too, just stand for a second or crouch for like second when the beam is going for you and watch her drones rotation, because in some cases, you can have enough window to avoid the beam before getting hit from SM. Yes, you can't loop her well but that is how the power is designed and how many many killer powers work. Try looping Nemesis, Artist, Xeno, Slinger on some loops, Pyramid Head, etc...
Survivors play againts her mindlessly as well. When I play her, nobody tries to do anything and even when attemping to disable drones it is usualy not needed for them to disable it or they get scaned / injured in process or get injured for free with info on them just running around.
I think she is overhated. She is not the most fun to verse killer lets say or most skillfull, but she rly isn't that much different or horrible than your avarage M2 anti-loop killer. People just overreact and hate her from past and lack of effort from survivor side too.
It sounds like people hate her because she extracts a ton of value out of virtually no skill expression, while Survivors are incapable of doing the same. In fact, it sounds like Survivors need quite an intricate understanding of Skull Merchant's power to counter her--doesn't exactly seem fair that one side needs to solve complex equations while their opponent is performing basic arithmetic.
It's hard to convince people there is a skill issue at play when their opponent has demonstrated no amount of skill.
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@Brimp said:
Its anti face camp and sounds like the killer is proxy camping so everything is fine.
Not necessarily targeted at you... but where gameplay and player experience is concerned, what is the difference between face camping and proxy camping? 16m?
Functionally, they are the same.
Are we really to believe that a Killer pretending to engage in chase is BETTER than one that telegraphs their intentions?
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Disclaimer: I have never played as chucky, nor have I watched gameplay from his perspective or taken any time to read his abilities. All I know is that he plays in 3rd person--everything else I've learned from the Survivor POV.
Playing against Chucky is always a good time. He has made my return to DBD an enjoyable one (recently coming off an 8 mo. break from the game). On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the most fun to play against, I would give Chucky an 8.5
My FAVORITE Feature: The sporatic footsteps that appear around the map. I don't know what triggers it, if anything at all, but I find it adds an enjoyable amount of tension while working on a generator. It's a soft jumpscare that keeps me alert, and is a feature I wish more killers had some variant of--I feel it reinforces the idea that the Killer could appear at any moment, and Survivors should be weary.
My LEAST FAVORITE Feature: Crawling under pallets (Scamper?). I think I would prefer some variant of Legion/Lopros Chains, where special attacks after crawling under the pallet inflict deep wound. I don't find Chucky particularly oppressive, but his ability to negate pallets makes many chases feel futile. The reality is that pallet stuns are too unrealiable because of desync.
All in all, hats off to the entire team that worked on Chucky. I'm really pleased with the result, and I look forward to more games against him.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628658#Comment_3628658
TL;DR: Even if BHVR implementation of a SBMM leaves much to be desired, it has little to do with the community getting more "tryhard" and it would had happened even with the old system (if not more, even if just to see that Iri 1 rank on the menu).
I think this is not the case, because we have been there and we noticed the difference. Like i said , the day it went live, people changed. Many became more sweaty, others followed over time. Both sides by the way.
People strive for what is optimal. The only way to gain MMR is to play effective, so they do. Before that, opimal was 2 pips and gain a lot of bloodpoints. It was not exactly optimal to tunnel 1 person out of the game but rather 12 hook while pressure gens.
I would step further and argue that if SBMM and pip ranking would be removed tomorrow, so only Bloodpoints are the "win condition", most would focus on Bloodpoint builds and bloodpoint focus playstyles.
You are in my opinion right that SBMM is not the only thing why it is the way it is, but it had a major roll.
There is no definitive evidence that SBMM is the reason DBD became more tryhard.
Online multiplayer games have a long history of becoming more competitive with age. The rate at which they do so is heavily dependent on how popular the game is and how quickly the meta is defined by the community.
Take Fortnite for example, that game became incredibly competitive long before the competitive scene was officially supported by Epic.
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@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628574#Comment_3628574
From my POV, the underlying issue is that BHVR concerns itself too much with what the community feels is good and/or bad.
tbf, they have done things before that wasn't based on what the community felt was good or bad, the outcome is either that the majority either gets used to it eventually or that people will continue to request for it to be changed until it happens. Also everytime they do something that someone don't like, you are going to have people saying stuff like ''nobody asked for this'' as an argument why it shouldn't have happened, so it's kinda hard for bhvr to not concern themselves about what the community feels because more often than not, it'll just lead to some level of backlash and player dissatisfaction, which isn't a good thing in the long run.
Peanits has been quoted on the fact that different regions see different metas, because the game isn't played the same all around the world. That's not sustainable! A game must be something, and then people must decide if they like that thing.
I don't think that's a problem nor that it's unsustainable, having people decide for themselves what the best way to play the game just means there is enough player agency that allows for it which i think is a good thing. I think it would be a problem is if the devs were to try and decide/control for people how they must play the game.
Granted some player agency have already been removed for the health of the game, but there needs to be a balance between both in order to keep people engaged.
Dead by Daylight wants to be something.
Designers are suppose to figure out what that something is, but that is not how BHVR is operating. It's a shame.
You need to remember that Asymmetrical games like Dead by Daylight is not an easy thing to get right as you cannot balance or design it like you would design a game in another genre. The asym genre itself is still relatively new compared to other existing video game genres, so there aren't really alot of successful games you can look to for ideas on what you should or shouldn't do to get such a game right, alot of other Asym games have died because they couldn't get it right for one reason or another.
Also whatever bhvr wants dbd to be, it's clear that the community have other ideas on what that should be instead, so they cannot do entirely their own thing without risking alienating the playerbase, but they cannot also do entirely what the community wants as it would be downright impossible since what the community wants is not just one thing and often it is very divisive on what it is they want, so the obvious answer seems to be finding a balance between both.
Designers don't always get it right. The successful ones acknowledge when they get it wrong, and make necessary changes.
Player feedback should be used to fine tune existing designs or identify when a design isn't working.
That's how I feel about it, anyway.
I like some of what you said. I disagree on a few points, but I find myself uninterest in diving into a debate, so I'm just writing to let you know I read your response and appreciate it. 👍️
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Never thought the 6% made it worth running, as someone who knows how to avoid the 3-gen.
Guess I'll try it with Prove Thyself, Overzealous, and Boon: COH ... or would people recommend Resilience in place of one of those perks?
I don't typically run gen speed perks, but I'm interested to give this a go
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It will never happen, but I wish player builds were always random, and players needed to pay a bloodpoint tax for each perk they choose to bring into a game (add-ons and items would be free)
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@Smoe said:
I'm just gonna copy what i posted last time someone reposted this video.
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Videos like these are usually only good for pointing problems out rather than bringing up solutions to the issues.
It's easy to say that we need to remove SBMM, but what are we gonna replace it with instead? Bringing the old ranking system back is not the solution as it will just bring back the same issues people had with that matchmaking back when it was in place. If we bring a new system as a replacement, then what is this system gonna prioritize instead that will make the experience better for all parties involved? How many variables should this system focus on compared to SBMM? Questions like these needs to be answered first.
As far as map design goes, i think the main problem is that there is no general consensus shared amongst the community as a whole on what constitutes as good & fair map design in dbd overall, as you'll have divided opinions on that as different people will claim any map is either bad design or good design depending on who you ask, Nostromo Wreckage is the latest example of where you'll have some claim it's either the best map design we've had in a long time or that it's the worst one yet. So until the community comes to an agreement on what the game's map design standard should strive for to be, it'll be hard to tell the devs how to fix maps in a solid way that makes them feel fair for both sides.
From my POV, the underlying issue is that BHVR concerns itself too much with what the community feels is good and/or bad.
Peanits has been quoted on the fact that different regions see different metas, because the game isn't played the same all around the world. That's not sustainable! A game must be something, and then people must decide if they like that thing.
To quote famous architect, Louis Kahn,
"You say to Brick, 'What do you want, Brick?' And Brick says to you, 'I like an Arch.' And if you say to Brick, 'look, arches are expensive, and I can use a concrete lintel. What do you think of that, Brick?' Brick says, 'I like an Arch.' And it's important, you see, that you honor the material that you use. [...] You can only do it if you honor the brick and glorify the brick instead of shortchanging it."
Dead by Daylight wants to be something.
Designers are suppose to figure out what that something is, but that is not how BHVR is operating. It's a shame.
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Had to return to this thread after this afternoon's game.
Watch "Toxic Spirit_1" on Streamable.Watch "Toxic Spirit_2" on Streamable.Watch "Toxic Spirit_3" on Streamable.I tabbed out, so the Spirit held me on her shoulder for 3 minutes.
These occurences are few and far between, but it's definitely alarming how easily the game enables people to victimize others.
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@Firellius said:
It wouldn't work anymore, since AFC was added to teach killers to camp more effectively. They'd circumvent Kindred.
Is this widely talked about?
I've recently returned after close to a full year's break, and immediately noticed how several killers camp right outside the AFC range. Effectively nothing has changed--in fact I'd argue the problem is worse now, because solo survivors are routinely falling for the bait. ...hell, I've even stumbled into the trap a few times.
At least previously people would know to turn around and go back to a gen ...with the exception of the occassional survivor who enjoyed crouching behind a nearby rock to stare at the killer staring at the survivor on hook.
At this point, it feels like the only solution is to have all hooks function like Pyramid Head's cage, where the survivor is transported randomly across the map.
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Never in a million years would I have thought a killer would eclipse Hag as my least favorite to go against, let alone Wraith..
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Out of curiousity, what constitutes "caring about survivors?"
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3626552#Comment_3626552
"Do they feel that killers need to be told who is the weak link before the game starts?"
I kind of feel like this play a role. Lots of solo queue players - such as myself - seem to notice that most solo teams seem to have a formula, with one or two survivors being less experienced than the others. Killers being able to weed them out probably helps keep the kill rates balanced. Just a theory though, I could be way off.
If so, it also makes it unneccessarily difficult for solo queue players to reach their actual MMR.
Just one more thing working against solo queue for no good reason.
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I'm confused why this is something that would need to be tested?
Ultimately, what is the point of showing prestige level in the lobby? Does BHVR really believe that lobby dodging is healthy for the game? Do they feel that killers need to be told who is the weak link before the game starts?
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3624413#Comment_3624413
Imagine the flip side though only you and the bot alive and the bot is programmed to try and save you over focusing on the exits. Either way you probably die.
Program it to 99 exit gates maybe but that means you know it gonna come for the save so just wait it out. If it comes down to you and a bot left and you are on hook then your goose is probably cooked.
Even in this situation...the bots exist to improve the player experience, not to escape.
It's neither here nor there what is the likely outcome, because the bots only care about their objective--which is to help real people enjoy the game. Better we debate HOW the bots are improving the player experience than whether or not they even are.
@Azulra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3624413#Comment_3624413
I know that they're bots and all, but that is just one of the most selfish and unempathetic responses I have seen so far on here(besides from one specific user). Anyone who stoops down that low I just can't agree with physically-
I take it you're leaving a bread crumb trail for Skynet to find once Judgement Day comes?
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@Reinami said:
I believe that statistically speaking, "99ing the gates" actually kills more people than it saves. This is probably why the bots decide to just open the gate.
We can't be sure, but I definitely wouldn't bet against you on that LOL
@pseudechis said:
I like that the BOTs have an "every man for themselves" mentality when it comes to the very end. Kinda real in that sense, there are very few true heroes.
@Azulra said:
That's because opening the gates and leaving is the objective once the gens are completed and the bots have a primary program of doing the objective coded into them. And, tbh, I actually like it because I enjoy the idea of end game being an every man for themselves situation.
I understand this perspective from a pseudo-realism approach to the game, but my experience has been that most players don't instantly leave. Insta-leaving is real in the sense of, "thats what I would do if I was in that situation in real life," but not an actual reflection of player behavior.
Additionally, from a game health POV, I struggle to see how this helps the game. These bots aren't paying customers, they don't need to be rewarded with an escape so that they keep playing the game.
From a purely game development stand-point, it seems like this programmed behavior only hurts player experience on behalf of "realism." We can appreciate their self-preservationism, sure... but we also know they're not cognitive beings, and therefore are incapable of appreciating their own freedom. If someone has to die in the end, it may as well be them.
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Unpopular opinion, but DBD is one of, if not the least toxic online gaming community I've come across.
That said, I'm a stereotypical straight white millennial male who keeps their profile private while solo-queing survivor 90% of my games, and plays D-tier killers when I do decide to play Killer. I don't exactly give people a reason to hate me.
This community celebrates diversity more than any other I've been a part of, particularly in the way it empowers members of the LGBTQ+ community. It would not surprise me to learn that many are victim to hate speech and other deplorable behavior that I am simply not witness to because the game's communication system is incredibly primitive.
I feel that a lot of the toxicity players experience in this game is a sort of "crime of opportunity." The power imbalance presents many opportunities for one side to exercise humility AND compassion, the latter of which is frequently in conflict with players' objective.
I don't know what I don't know, so I can't speak to others' experience, but the lack of social channels on DBD has limited my exposure to sensless racist and mysognistic comments that I've grown accustomed to hearing in other online games.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3610134#Comment_3610134
You raise a good point here. I mean mechanically DBD is pretty simple.
At most you are going to get different environments, themes or layouts or tweaks of current design. There is not a lot else to be done.
When they bring in changes that stray to far from the mould they tend to result in unfamiliar components that people complain about.
A lot of DBD is doing the same thing with very slight variations, when something appears that breaks the rules people tend to complain that the same thing doesn't work rather than try and switch things up.
Its all good to call for innovation but really what people are asking for is simplification.
If people want to have the same kinds of chase mechanics be reflected by every killer and survivor interaction, how then can you really have anything truly groundbreaking or innovative?
Its the double edged sword of trying to introduce new things into the strict ruleset you've applied to your setting. If there is a strong belief that there is only one right way to play DBD, which there really is for a lot of players, then how can anything be a new experience yet still feel like it fits?
DBD has been around so long now that its probably less likely to get big change ups, rather incremental tweaks to existing design.
DBD’s simplicity is inherently why it has been so successful.
Conceptually, it is very easy to grasp. Mechanically, it has a low barrier for entry.
In that respect, there is absolutely nothing wrong with DBD’s simplicity.
I think I’ve seen you mention chess on here once before. It is curious to note chess’ popularity, given it’s age, it’s simplicity, and it’s “lack of innovation.”
It seems there is something to be said about games as a service, and the expectations that follow.
“Innovation” and “Simplicity” don’t need to be mutually exclusive. A good design can be both.
….and now I’ve lost my train of thought. Sorry, lol, I don’t know what happened but my mind has gone completely blank while writing this. I’m certain I was building towards a coherent thought, so I’ll send this through.
I do apologize if this reply turns out to be nonsensical jargon. 😅😭
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@pseudechis said:
I think innovation is a great buzz word with little substance because what does it actually mean when people say it?
What exactly do you, and additionally a lot of folks who have replied with the same "they refuse to innovate" comment want from the game that would be in your view an "innovative" change?
The basic premise of DBD is still essentially unchanged as a core game and its still very popular. Its the longest running asymmetrical horror survival that I can think of, so why vastly change a good thing? Just because its been around a long time? That's not a good enough reason.
Most changes these days are simply tweaks and reworks because that's largely what things need when the base premise is still highly successful.
If they were to completely rework the game mechanics it would likely be better to launch DBD 2 than drastically rebuild the game from the ground up, but what would that even look like? Because the base premise of the game would be the same... survivors have some task to complete to escape while killer is tasked with eliminating them before that happens.
Given the sort of things people complain about on this forum, I'd say people don't want innovation. Because innovation leads to mechanics that can bend the game rules and force people to think differently and play differently. Its very clear people don't want to have to think or play differently they want the same things to work over and over for everything, they call this "balance" usually.
For example - The Nurse an "innovative" killer whom breaks a lot of the rules for "normal" chase, requires a bit of time to get good with and can be hard to play against. What's the result? One of the most complained about characters on the roster... why? Because you can't do the exactly same thing against her that you can for other killers. That's what innovation looks like.
Do you want innovation or just simplification?
When people say “innovation,” they are most likely looking for designs which have noticeably drawn inspiration from sources outside Dead By Daylight’s existing formula.
Successful implementation of said innovation would be when players can look at those designs, recognize that it’s unlike anything they’ve experienced in DBD, but also feel like it belongs in the world/game.
As it stands, BHVR has been iterating on it’s existing designs for several years.
I won’t say that they haven’t been innovating, as that would be fundamentally untrue, but the overwhelming majority of updates are iterations, rather than innovations, which leads the game to feel stale.
Personally, their map designs are uninspired and are in dire need of innovation. Every map is fundamentally the same.
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I used to scratch my head at the decisions BHVR have been making for DBD, but then I landed a senior creative role at an office in which the CEO has final say on every facet of every part of the job.
My boss is not a designer, nor are they an artist of any sort, yet they are routinely making executive decisions regarding the art direction of every creative project.
It would be an overstatement to say that my boss has a distinct preference for amateur art & design. The end result is a highly talented creative team who intentionally create low quality work, because it is easier to give our boss the ######### they like, than to hand them professional work and being asked to redo it.
I can only imagine that the higher ups at BHVR are ignoring the counsel of those around them, because they wrongfully believe they know what is best. Things will not change unless the leadership changes.
Anyway... time for me to return to my job search 😭
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If you want to stop using Kindred, you need to start being more observant.
If you've ever watched any content creators--particularly the educational killer mains, you've probabaly seen them make educated guesses about where a survivor is at any given time, based on the information available to them. e.g. They'll say something like "That gen just popped, and I know Meg is working on that gen over there, so Feng must be going for the unhook right now."
They won't always be right, but that is the type of mental map you need to keep in your head if you want to play without Kindred.
It may be challenging at first, but it's worth the investment of time to learn, and you'll be loads better at the game for it.
The only reason I don't recommend being more observant is because once you understand the metagame on a galaxy-brain level, you develop animosity towards your teammates for making the most irrational decisions imaginable. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570996#Comment_3570996
Which makes it an mmr issue right...
...i guess? lol
I think I'd go a step further to call it a leadership/design direction issue. Cause last I heard, MMR works exactly the way it was designed to
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570336#Comment_3570336
If "High skill" killers are a problem, does that mean high skill survivors are a problem too? Because for every 1k win streak blight you see, there are just as many SWF teams going on those same win streaks.
Do I seriously need to hold your hand and explain to you the difference between a Killer learning to counterplay Survivor(s) and Survivors learning to counterplay each and every Killer?
And once I've walked you through those differences, do I seriously need to hold your hand and explain to you how the Survivor's job becomes exponentially harder with each Killer release, while the Killer's job remains exactly the same?
@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570336#Comment_3570336
That sounds like a matchmaking issue though... Such one trick killer players should have a rather high mmr and therefore not be matched with the average player... Also high skill characters are good to keep players on board, the game would be really boring if there was nothing to learn.
...should have a rather high mmr and theefore not be matched with the average player
The problem is...MMR in DBD does not exist to frequently match players of equal skill. Maybe things have changed since I last played (Feb/Mar), but MMR was designed to make sure everyone won roughly half of their games. BHVR decided that the quality of each match was less important to their bottom line than the outcome of each match, and in turn created a system that cared more about predicting outcomes than creating close matches.
As an unnecessary aside...
DBD's MMR system is like a rich, out-of-touch parent who thinks they can make their kids happy by throwing money at them, when the kids need love and attention. It might solve one or two problems in the short-term, but it is damaging in the long run.
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Unfortunately, the more Killers BHVR releases, the more problematic "high skill" Killers are for game health.
The average player has no influence over which Killers they face, and are therefore unable to keep pace with the skill development of players who only play one Killer. Every time a new Killer is released, Survivors have fewer opportunities to learn the counterplay against every other Killer.
If I was BHVR, I'm not sure how I would address this issue.
My inclination is to design a series of LTMs that reignite interest in the game whilst promoting a diversity of playstyles, all with the hopes that one of the LTMs gains enough traction to eventually replace the core game mode.
The alternative would probably be to institute a Killer/Perk ban system, and see what the landscape looks like after a few months of player-regulated matchmaking. Survivors could forcibly increase the variety of Killers they encounter, and Killers could either ban meta Survivor perks or ban perks that uniquely hinder the Killer they are playing
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We should really be looking at the data Year-to-Date, as Month-to-Month is extremely misleading...
(This data is courtesy of Steam Charts)
Obviously these numbers are not representative of the entire playerbase, but we've no reason to believe this trend would be PC-exclusive. In fact, the increasing frustration from last-gen performance issues on console should suggest that console is seeing an even larger dip in player numbers.
All that important data aside, I haven't really played DBD in 8-9 months.
I'm extremely out of touch with the average player experience at this point, but if I had to guess...the player count is falling because the issues that drove players away from the game months ago continue to go unresolved.
The Alien chapter looks visually stunning, and I was so excited when it was first announced. But I can't be bothered to download and play the game when everything I see online indicates my experience will be the same (if not worse) than 8 months ago.
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I will never understand why people scrutinize FOMO marketing tactics.
It is a company's responsibility to draw as much sales as possible, and it is the consumer's responsibility to manage their own finances.
No one is forcing you to buy any of the cosmetics BHVR sells. If you can't afford it, you shouldn't be buying it. If you shouldn't be buying it, learn to cope with the reality that you don't need to own everything, and your quality of life is in no way, shape, or form, improved by attempting to.
If you want to financially support BHVR for making DBD, that is great--they are giving you a plethora of ways to do so. But if your wallet is struggling to keep up with the demand, either restructure your financial budget for reassess your priorities.
Until consumers take responsibility for their own actions, FOMO marketing will continue to dominate social and e-commerce. If you think it's bad now, you are in for a rude awakening when AI takes the marketing world by storm.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3502593#Comment_3502593
Alien eggs. The one where the facehugers are born.
Right, I guess I'm just uncertain if you're scared of eggs, as in you have a phobia.
...or you assume the eggs could only be used for locking down a 3-gen, THEREFORE you are nervous about their existence.
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egg? huh?