KayTwoAyy
KayTwoAyy
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119833#Comment_4119833
Except DBD isn't really like any other PvP game. Most people even if they don't know the math behind things can understand the point gun at the other team and shoot concept of most other PvP games. DBD is a bit more obtuse since looping is never explained to you even in the tutorial and only very recently did we get an in game resource for learning killer powers. Like nobody is learning to duck a chainsaw their first day unless told by a friend because that isn't intuitive.
I said absolutely nothing about killer skill in my post so weird to try and make it about that but if I had to think about it I don't think they would go all on one curve because killers are all different and they would all have different curves. Like it's a lot easier to be good at Ghoul than it is to be good at Hag so they would have completely different curves.
Lastly I'd say I care about survivor skill more than killer skill because it effects me more. If a killer is bad I get an easier game and I'm kinda fine with that. If a survivor is bad that screws me because my chance to escape goes down so of course I'm gonna care about that way more.
True that DBD is unique when compared to today's most popular PvP games and that few skills are transferrable from other games, but I question the impact of such uniqueness on skill distribution.
For arguments sake, I thought League of Legends would be a great comparison.
There are many more moving parts and there is so much more information to memorize.Fun story:
After roughly 20 years of gaming, I tried to get into LoL. I played very seriously for 2 weeks—watched YT tutorials, tips & tricks, multiple hours of gaming a day—and not a single game went by where I wasn't the weak link. I developed insomnia because the concepts were so foreign to me and I was trying so hard to improve. I would wake up every 15 minutes, having played multiple full games of LoL in my dreams, heart-racing, cold sweats, total disorientation…so I quit that game.
This is the rank distribution in League of Legends (NA Servers; Source: OP.GG):
The interesting thing about skill distribution is that skill is all relative.If something is easy, more people will demonstrate proficiency—but that doesn't make them more skilled.
Inversely, if something is difficult, more people will demonstrate inadequacy—but that doesn't make them less skilled.What makes distribution unique in DBD compared to a game like League of Legends is not how players are distributed, but how they are matched. Because opponents are not playing the same game, an even match-up might look like 1 Platinum Killer vs 4 Silver Survivors, or vice versa.
…though I imagine the MMR system increases and decreases ones rank at inequal rates, according to whatever the data tells BHVR is the easier role.
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Are we really too few to matter?
I've been on Discord since 2017. …much like Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, etc., Discord and Reddit are becoming a corporate cesspool of predatory hyperconsumerism. I refuse to waste my time in 'communities' that believe my attention is more important than my opinion.
Maybe this looks good for business, but it looks bad for player trust.
Meanwhile the world is rapidly moving towards a trust economy, so… good luck. -
You are my new favorite forum member. Thank you.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119282#Comment_4119282
Anyone still claiming that survivors can play brain off and be successful is lying to themself. How often do we have people complaining about "brainless" teammates losing the survivors the game. How often do we hear that doing this or that without thinking gets survivors killed. Then they turn around and claim survivors can win without thinking? The reality is that this game has become too competitive and too sweaty for either side to expect success playing that way. There is plenty of information survivors need to keep track of if they want to win and they don't get any of it basekit.
Mechanical simplicity doesn't mean a lack of depth, DbD is popular in large part because those simple mechanics lead to such depth, a day to learn the absolute basics, ages to master, its why so many people consider you a "baby" until you have 1k hours.
When you consider the developers target an average escape rate of 40%, Survivors technically have to work harder than Killers for their wins. What that hard work looks like is often ambiguous, but I think you touched on it well.
Days, months, and years are behind player decision-making. There is a lot of information to keep track of.
DBD has become very competitive, meaning players are turning to external resources to learn tips & tricks to accelerate their development, but not everyone is trying to be an expert at the game. We must acknowledge how long it takes to learn the fundamentals before accusing players of not trying hard enough.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119133#Comment_4119133
But they weren't over performing until the latest round of buffs which are now reverted. So what do you do when the numbers are fine but survivors want nerfs anyway because they hate the very idea of the killer?
Also accusing Judgment players of not having to think is the worst route you could go cuz you have to think trying to aim the beam up close otherwise you're never hitting anyone.
Having spent over a dozen hours playing as the Judgement, I'm confident a numbers adjustment is not the reason this Killer has been overperforming. …but if your arguement is to wait and see, okay. Lets do that. We can all shut up and watch as the Judgement is rendered unplayable because the concerns of the community were not heard.
…regarding your last comment, I was pondering your ideology more broadly—you sound as though you believe Killer players put more effort into the game than Survivors. Understanding your perspective would help explain why you feel Judgement players have earned their victories (and why Survivors have not).
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119051#Comment_4119051
Counterpoint is it fair to killer players to have a killer that is otherwise mostly balanced nerfed just because your average survivor doesn't wanna put in even a modicum of thought or effort into a game?
That's not a counterpoint.
Yes, it is fair and it is necessary to rebalance a Killer who is consistently overperforming against the typical Survivor.
The Killer in question is not "mostly balanced" if they are overperforming.This is a live service game. If survivors ever "put in even a modicum of thought or effort into a game" then the Killer in question can be rebalanced accordingly.
Unless Killer players have delusions of grandeur, they would recognize the balance changes as necessary.
…I wonder, do you believe that Killers always "put in even a mocidum of thought or effort?" Are they not also the benefactors of balancing for those who cannot or will not?
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118946#Comment_4118946
Everyone else went down pretty fast (I had to get hatch) which isn't uncommon for my games against Judgement so I believe people when they say they're struggling against Judgement I just think it's mostly a skill issue and instead of trying to learn they complain.
I'm sure every great solo Survivor finds their teammates go down pretty fast against Killers they can loop for a long time.
If "everyone else" in your games are going down pretty fast, why should balance changes be made around thee? You are 1 and they are 3.Is it reasonable for a player with hundreds, if not thousands, of hours to ask those with less to "get on my level?"
Is it not more reasonable to look at the typical experience of players and ask the developers to "meet them at their level?" -
The best Singularity's I've encountered have all succesfully created a game state in which survivors needed to slow down, minimize risk-taking, and split pressure until the last gen(s) could no longer be kicked. The matches always became wars of attrition (and of player patience) that could not be won without EMPs.
If EMPs were a limited resource, then Singularity's win condition would be to force survivors to burn through them immediately.Players do not enjoy finding themselves in situations that feel unwinnable, even if they were avoidable. Especially when causality is influenced by teammates whose knowledge and skill of the game is beyond their control.
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I've run into players implementing this strategy despite having 10k hours in the game.
Like you, I can't quite wrap my head around how this could ever be fun (for both the survivors and the killer).
Most eye-opening for me was when I encountered a big streamer playing this way on a killer with whom they had 4k hours in-game. It became apparent to me they were focused on engaging with chat rather than engaging with the game.
I can imagine a not-so-insignificant amount of players engage with the game passively, in much the same way as a streamer, perhaps while chatting with friends, watching videos, or juggling some other activity. It is during this time that they would be oblivious to their own actions and the impact it has on others. -
@cammoking123 said:
The worst part about Judgement is the dozens of aura reading perks that activate with very little requirement. You don't even have to look for survivors anymore. There are dozens of perks that reveal their auras. And honestly, not even old Distortion would protect us from all the aura reading BHVR has given killers. Oh and they're buffing deerstalker. Just what Judgement players need.
Both of the aura reading buffs really surprised me
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I'm really enjoying DBD, possibly more than I ever have, but I am looking to take a break soon.
Mostly personal reasons—hate that this game has me wrapped around its fingers and I want to pursue more fulfilling hobbies like drawing/painting.
I spent Chapters 21 - 25 hating every moment I played the game, but not being able to walk away. I probably uninstalled the game two dozen times, only to come right back. Took a solid break from Capter 26 - 33. Couldn't avoid the D&D chapter forever, I'm afraid. The last few chapters I've played a few games a week, but since Jason's release I've been playing non-stop.
TL;DR I'm spending too much time on this game and I need to be a responsible adult. -
I never ran Windows of Opportunity, so when Five Moves Ahead released, I thought it was a joke.
Now there is actually an identity to each perk, so I could see myself running either one. -
@MechWarrior3 thoughts? Has your experience against this killer changed at all?
Now my highest killrate among Killers over 1hr playtime and average hooks at 1.6 per game.
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@Linkdouken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116426#Comment_4116426
Agreed, Oni would probably be the worst offender.
The ones that I think would work would be Trapper, Wraith, Xenomorph, Chucky, Wesker. Billy or Huntress could be pretty deadly if both players are highly skilled
Why would Oni be a problem? If anything, they would be starved because they would be stealing eachother's blood orbs.
If either of them finds a decent survivor first chase, its game over. -
@MechWarrior3 just following up on my earlier stats…
51 Games, 85% Kill Rate, and less than 2 hooks per game.
Judgement is now firmly middle of the pack on playtime and has the highest Kill Rate of all my Killers over 10hrs.
I have a recorded 429hrs on Killer and 1,171hrs on Survivor (per DBD Statistics).
I play against people who have hundreds, if not thousands, of hours on a single Killer. If I can "master" this killer in 10 hours, I don't look forward to running into people who play him all the time.
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I've been using Surveillance on Judgement, with Ruin, and it is arguably too strong in its current state.
3-gens centered on my hex are next to impossible for Survivors to break, even if I miss 20 shots in a row, simply because I know which generator is being attended at any given moment.
That said, I can relate to OP's concerns BEFORE the Judgement's release. Previously thought this perk needed TLC.
If I were to change the perk, I'd reduce the yellow aura to 3s and have it appear only when the generator's aura is within the killer's FOV. Maybe not a necessary change, but a QOL upgrade for those considering the perk. -
@BloodBehemoth said:
Probably to stop "post shaming" Oh look, another 1 post andy crying about X, downvote and move on.
Balrog recently identified it as a potential bug, but I could see this as a legitimate reason.
I've seen posts/people dismissed because their low post count suggested inexperience with the game. On the flip side, I'm sure there are people that look at frequent posters and assume "you play too much, you're out of touch with the average player." -
@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114377#Comment_4114377
I mean that's sorta what's going on in the opposite direction. I've had people as survivor and killer who were so sure that the giant beam of doom from the sky was harmless to them so they didn't bother trying to dodge. I've had some where they keep trying to dodge at the last second instead of smartly as they could have with sight or sound. I've had some people where they seem to think I can't course correct while aiming and run in straight lines…
Now admittedly some of that can be chalked to new killer and mmr resets and whatever, but I'm definitely sure that there's more of the plain dumb than any other factor.
I do not disagree that players encounter others well below their skill level quite frequently. It happened all the time with the previous MMR, it is happening now during reset, and it could still happen with relative frequency going forward under the new MMR.
That does not mean we can conveniently summon the skill level of a killer that most supports our own argument. …particularly in a thread that shouldn't be concerned with inexperienced killers.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114158#Comment_4114158
The weird thing is beating Judgement isn't even hard, I think I've lost to maybe one since she came out. Hear the beam get off the gen for a moment if you get hit take the moment to heal and then try again, if she chases you congrats you won cuz most don't know how to hit people in loops yet, I truly have no clue how people can struggle with that.
Every killer is easy to play against when the version you compare them to is unskilled and/or inexperienced.
Following your same logic, I can say Judgement is very hard because most survivors don't know how to loop.
Literal strawman. -
@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112935#Comment_4112935
First of all, It was just a typo when I responded. I was answering while at work. Didnt have time to edit my post…Second..You said it yourself. You avoid cages by avoiding barbwire on the ground. You avoid Exile, by not getting beamed down constantly and being aware of your surrounds. There is directional sound audio and 25+ meter aura reading on her power. Your builds are great builds and will work on 42 members of the killer roster. There is nothing further I wish to add to this conversation.
Hey, just following up in case you missed my last message…
I average 2.5 hooks a game and have a 71% kill rate.
For reference, my average kill rate across all killers is 75.59% and I average 7.61 hooks (My PH average is 5.5 hooks).
Just thought I'd leave this here and we can circle back when I've more experience on the killer. Cheers.
Edit: Minor update. Kill rate up 9% after 12 more games, while hooks down .03
…waiting for MMR to adjust and the survivors to start avoiding exile. Soon™?
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112935#Comment_4112935
First of all, It was just a typo when I responded. I was answering while at work. Didnt have time to edit my post…Second..You said it yourself. You avoid cages by avoiding barbwire on the ground. You avoid Exile, by not getting beamed down constantly and being aware of your surrounds. There is directional sound audio and 25+ meter aura reading on her power. Your builds are great builds and will work on 42 members of the killer roster. There is nothing further I wish to add to this conversation.
Sorry, but in stressing the ease with which one can dodge Judgement’s beam, you are implying that Judgement cannot learn to outplay a “good” survivor.
Is that your opinion? That landing attacks are more akin to a broken clock being right twice a day than an expression of skill?
I cant speak for OP, but I’m not worried about my perks being useless against an inexperienced Killer. -
@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113135#Comment_4113135
I mean no you were trying to suggest you can only use a few perks against Judgement which isn't true. You're just being disingenuous.
It is okay for you to disagree with the position laid out by OP, but it is not right to call me disingenuous when you've not heard what I have to say.
I've attempted to establish common ground so that we're not talking around eachother.
Rather than participate in a constructive conversation, you've been nothing but dismissive and dogmatic.
It is most ironic that you have accused me of being disingenuous and making a strawman argument.
Unless your intention is to troll, I would implore you to revisit this exchange once you're able to emotionally detach yourself from the position being argued.
We're no longer talking about OP, so good day. -
@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113117#Comment_4113117
I mean we'd just go in circles. You're presenting a nonexistent world where only a few perks are viable. We don't live in that world so it's a pointless question.
It was a very simple question to establish common ground on what an ideal version of DBD looks like.
But you're not interested in having this discussion in good faith. What a shame. -
@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113077#Comment_4113077
Except this is a strawman. You're just saying only a few perks are viable when that isn't actually true.
Do you want to engage in a conversation or are buzz words all I'm going to hear from you?
I'm asking you to clarify your position on the topic. Please look up the definition of 'strawman,' for everyone's sake.
One last time…
Would you rather only a few perks be run in most games, because the rest offer such little value and/or are unreliable, or would you rather a gamut of perks be used (by both sides)?
If you can't answer that, I'm not going to waste my time talking to you. -
@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113042#Comment_4113042
Sounds like it's time for a changing meta to me and to that I say good riddance the meta has been the same for a long time.
That is not what I asked.
Would you rather only a few perks be run in most games, because the rest offer such little value and/or are unreliable, or would you rather a gamut of perks be used (by both sides)? -
@Xendritch said:
Once you realize more than half of those are perks nobody runs it seems a lot less like a problem. Then once you realize different killers shut down different builds like Plague with healing and any stealth killer with aura reading this seems like a silly thing to complain about. And then after all that when you realize survivors can run perks that can shutdown certain killers (Twins facing anti slugging perks for instance) this thread just seems massively hypocritical.
…and when you realize every survivor in every match is running the same few perks, because they have the highest probability of value, will it seem like more or less of a problem to you?
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112925#Comment_4112925
Judgement is the only killer. There are 44+ Killers. Your builds in most cases will work just fine. There aren't many judgement players and there wont be many due to how hard she is.
I have barely seen her and she just released.
Your initial position was that the precedent was already set with PHead. Now your position is that the Judgement is the only killer, therefore it is a non-issue. Neither positions dispute OP's concern over the design's health for the game, might I add.
Were I to provide a genuine response, I imagine you might change your position once more to continue this dismissive pattern of communication. Are you interested in having a good-faith conversation or would you rather be a contrarian? -
@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4112913#Comment_4112913
If I have get 2 downs and they are both marked has heretics, I don't exile both. Its a waste. 1 survivor will get 2 survivors out of exile. I exile one…hook the other. Waste more time for the survivors. Its better to do it this way unless if of course you are being beamed to death or they are on a pallet and you know someone is nearby then yes, just exile.
The 2-for-1 recovery is only a concern if you downed both survivors near eachother. …but I already acknowledged there are (rare) cases in which the Judgement hooks someone, so I'm not sure why we are still debating it.
OP's post resonates with me specifically because all of my preset survivor builds are comically useless against Judgement.
Support - "Anti-Tunnel"
Support - "Hook Stall"
Support - "Sabo Everything"
Chase - "Solo Struggle"
Chase - "Slug Me" (SWF)
Chase - "Slug Me" (Solo)
Gens - "Crank Faster"
I haven't run a healing build since the diminishing returns, but even if I did, the fact every Judgement is running Nurses' makes it a risky pick. Its hard to look at my presets and say "I'm glad all this build diversity is going out the window" -
Tenacity, Unbreakable, and B: Exponential are actually strong against her. …but I'd also put some more perks on that list—so neither here nor there.
I agree with the sentiment.@MechWarrior3 said:
There's this really cool killer that came out about 6 years ago called Pyramid head that can do the same thing.
He counters every single perk. Wanna list all the killer perks they cant use either?
The difference I see between the two killers is that PHead's primary power does not circumvent hooks whereas Judgement's does. Survivors can avoid the cage by avoiding the Rites.
Judgement's chase is so weak that she will inevitably down you with her range attack, which means you should almost never be hooked unless the Judgement determines it is strategically advantageous to do so (and it rarely is). -
@random1543 said:
Needs to be reverted was a un-needed change.
Vigil nerfs where enough they didn't need to do both.
All it does is gonna make meta more stale because you'll have even less variety in exhaustion and the goal post is gonna be moved to lithe next because that is gonna be most common exhaustion perk now.As a Vigil/Sprint Burst-enjoyer, who would selfishly rather see Sprint Burst buffed, I think it is okay for the devs to "move the goal posts" as their vision of the game shifts over time.
IMO, Dead Hard is unnecessarily difficult to use reliably. Head On is somewhat difficult to use reliably, as is Smash Hit. In contrast, Lithe and Sprint Burst are extremely easy to use reliably.
The devs may be attempting to create a range of exhaustion perks which vary in ease of use, and whose rewards are scaled accordingly. In this case, Sprint Burst is easy to use reliably, so the value Survivors gain from it has been diminished. If Survivors want a higher value Exhaustion perk, they can attempt to master a perk of higher risk/reward.
Sprint Burst is still a reliable form of "Dead Hard for distance," in the right hands. -
Played against a huntress running this combo on the Game.
I was ready to counterplay with Distortion and Shadow Step, so not a problem during the early game.
We eventually get to 1 gen and 2v1, and it was at that point the perk became unhealthy.
She slugged my friend without knowing where I was (trusting she would soon see my aura).
The game prolongs for 10 more minutes in a cycle of slug, recover, slug, recover, slug, recover.
The lengths killers go to for 4ks are a bit rediculuous…
I think we often forget our opponents are people too and that we should consider how our gameplay effects others, even while we are trying to win. -
Why has no one been talking about running Blast Mine with Residual Manifest… (and Distortion and Shadow Step)
I'm having so much fun hard countering this killer's #1 build. -
I've played her a few games, and I'm starting to think she might be the strongest killer in the game.
My opinion may change as MMR adjusts and survivors learn counterplay, but right now I feel like I have constant map-wide pressure running Thrill, Ruin, Retribution, and Surveillance with aura reading add-ons.
I've had multiple games where I have 3 slugged in the first minute. -
@SpyUA said:
What's the achievement description?
In public matches, see the Obsession's Aura for a total of 300 seconds
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@tjt85 said:
In theory it might be better than what we have currently, but in practice it won't make any difference at all.
As I write, Killer queues in my region are 5+ minutes long while Survivor queues are 12 seconds or less. You cannot have a functioning match-making system with an imbalance like that. It just isn't possible.
Always going to be an issue with an asymm game.
How would you propose ensuring there are exactly 4 survivor players for every 1 killer player? -
@crogers271 said:
I think they should change the chest offering and just increase the base number of chests in the game. As BHVR has been recently on a 'make things easier to balance' with diminishing returns, another way they could handle this is making chests static amounts. That would make it easier to balance chest perks on both the survivor and killer side.
Change coins to "increases chance of greater item rarity," or something to that effect
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Dungeons and Dragons.
Its time to unleash the Beholder trapped in the dungeon and show everyone what a monster that thing really is. -
@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102956#Comment_4102956
You don't have to believe me here, but as his mate I have the advantage of having literally played killer on his account around his house. My stats, for reference:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/SA7H929HQ5KZ/image.png
And I can say, with an admittedly limited sample size, that the matches I've played on his account as substantially harder than the ones I play on mine. Be it as Freddy (with a rather high kill rate), on my main Exe (with still quite a high rate), or with my Chucky (who has a 56% kill rate LMAO), and I genuinely don't know why it is, but playing on his account felt a lot sweatier, a lot more unwinnable on lower-tiers (god bless Exe my goat), and like I was doomed to lose from map RNG.
And again, this is only anecdotal and I can only speak from my experience, but I swear his setup is cursed or something, because by all means I should be getting harder games than him, and yet games on my account are so much easier than on his.
I've noticed a similar event between my friend and I.
The only thing I could think to attribute it to is the fact that I frequently go stretches of games in which I 12-hook, no-kill.
With my killrate sitting at 75%-85% across the board, I reason the MMR is slower to rise than it is to fall, therefore the games I show mercy are returned tenfold with easier opponents (on average).
I never run into bully squads and my 4k games are often won at 3-4 gens remaining.
I don't think I'm a very good killer. I play everyone, so I'm a master of none. -
@GroovieAshes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100161#Comment_4100161
Killers need an abandon option once the doors are opened probably. They could in theory not open doors, in that case 5 minutes?
This crusade against trivial inconveniences in the name of "player satisfaction" tears down the the sense of community that DBD desperately needs to hold onto.
In a world in which so many feel isolated/alone, we need more reminders that our time and behavior are connected to and effect others, not less. -
@ThatRyanB said:
Thanks for answering! To add on to this, I'd love to uno reverse one of the comments here. If Diminishing Returns information were to be shared in-game, how would you prefer to see this handled?
jesterkind desscribed it very similar to how I imagined…the source that is effected by diminishing returns should be given an icon that indicates it is not working at base value. When the perk in question is hovered over, it shows the adjusted modifier* and indicates the debuff is due to diminishings returns.
*I intentionally picked perks in the screenshot above that are conditional, understanding that showing the modifier in lobby may not be feasible. However, I would like to stress that it is a poor user experience to be asked to do the math to determine if my build is operating as expected. -
@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096515#Comment_4096515
Just finnished witcher 1 not too long ago. Took me such a looooooong time lol just starting 2
Witcher 1 took me a very long time as well.
…i may have sped thru 2 as a result.
By the time I got deep into 3 I was grateful for playing the first 2, but they were definitely tests of my tolerance for older games. -
Active:
Metaphor: ReFantazio
FINAL FANTASY
Kingdom Come: Deliverance
Recently wrapped up:
Witcher 1 - 3
No Rest for the Wicked
Thief Gold -
@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096191#Comment_4096191
This is exactly why he needs the haste. I didn't understand why he got it either until I played him. He has to reload after every shot like Deathslinger and Springtrap, except that he doesn't have as much control over reloading as them. He has to walk by a junk pile or a hook. Until you play him yourself you don't realize how inconsistent this is. I know it feels like when he's chasing you that they're everywhere but trust me they're not.
Even when he does have access to both a junk pile and a hook in a tile, they have respawn periods after he grabs ammo from them
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096197#Comment_4096197
I feel like you're thinking about this the wrong way.
First off, as you said yourself, he's not OP or too strong (outside of the hex build). So clearly he's not power creep, then. Except for Spirit, all of the killers you mentioned need buffs. Some of them are really weak right now. Unless you think they're the healthy ones, but then the survivors need nerfs instead.
But also, killer playstyles are important and Jason doesn't have the same playstyle as these killers except for the projectile ones.
- Huntress, Springtrap, and Deathslinger all need buffs. And they're distinct from Jason in their own unique ways. Like Springtrap never needs to worry about reloading, just waiting out a cooldown. Deathslinger can reload at any time he wants. Huntress has multiple hatchets so she has way more shots than Jason. If all you care about is the projectile part of the kit, you're still probably going to gravitate more towards Huntress or Deathslinger due to this, or you might find Jason to be a different experience due to the fact he trades inconsistent access to ammo for bursts of faster movement speed, better map mobility, and stealth.
- Spirit has a distinct playstyle of approaching invisibily and tracking by sound, and she can attack instantly out of stealth. She's all about this, Jason just uses stealth to get close to survivors, he can't attack you out of stealth. She's also about as strong as Jason when played well.
- Wrath is also about ambushing people out of stealth. Jason can't do this because he has a delay coming out of OE. He can't cut survivors off and bodyblock them or use his uncloak speed boost to outplay tiles. If you like playing Wraith, you might enjoy Jason but not because he's just a better Wraith.
- Sadako has a very unique macro-oriented playstyle of building up condemned on the survivors and controlling the TVs. She's stronger than people think (I feel like a lot of people try to play her like an M1 killer with a teleport) but she's still weak, and her playstyle is extremely different from Jason as he is a chase-oriented killer while Sadako is about macro play and hit & run.
- Demogorgon already got power crept by Wesker and Dracula. Demo is extremely weak right now and in need of some buffs. And also he doesn't offer the same playstyle as Jason since he's not a projectile killer, he's a dash killer.
Thanks for the thoughtful response.
I’m not convinced the Killers mentioned are different enough (except maybe Onryo) to justify playing them over Jason. Outside of super niche builds like moonshot Huntress, Jason satisfies enough of each major killer archetype (that isnt traps/zoning) to be a one-stop-shop.
Arguing granular details about killer powers is futile when people don’t play killers for granular reasons. If two killers are similar playstyles, people gravitate towards the more powerful.
Jason might not be “OP” but he is objectively more powerful than killers who have 1/3 of his kit. It means future killers need to come equipped with just as much bloat to convince players to buy/play.
This isn’t a problem today, but it is a problem for the future. …not the first live service game to go down this route -
@Zakon05 said:
The spears are interesting because when you're playing vs him, it can sometimes feel like he just has infinite ammo. But then you try playing as him, and suddenly getting a spear mid-chase is really difficult, requiring you to give up distance to take a detour to grab it.
Before I had a chance to play as him a bunch, I thought he was a bit too much. But now that I've played him, I think he's overall fine with a few small issues. It really is important to play as the character yourself to learn what struggles they go through and how others counter him. My performance against him went up dramatically with some experience playing as him under my belt. This is true in the opposite direction, too - you should play against the character to see if your issues playing him are personal issues or not.
Jason just needs two nerfs to basically be in a perfect spot imo. They also happened to both be in Scott Jund's video today, so now people can accuse me of parroting streamers!
- You need to be invisible to him in Omnipresent Evil while cleansing totems. The hex build is just way way too good.
- Deputy Badge should not regress already regressing generators.
Also they should maybe look into nerfing Thrill of the Hunt back down to 50% like it was before the buffs it got in 8.4. Hex builds are really difficult to deal with right now and it's all due to Thrill, where before that buff they weren't that hard to deal with while Thrill was still a pretty good perk.
Sorry if this is technically “off-topic,” but because you said “in the perfect spot…”
How do you feel about the power creep that is his base kit? I don’t see anyone talking about it, and I find it incredibly concerning.
Jason may not be OP or “too strong,” but his kit eclipses the need for anyone to play Wraith, Spirit, Huntress, Deathslinger, Springtrap, Onryo, Demo, and probably several others I’m forgetting to mention.
It raises serious concerns for future killer design -
@ScottJund said:
I'm actually mad at Hens for using that build on Jason because without it Jason legitimately is not as strong and people are not going to be nuanced enough to know that Jason is too strong with hexes, not by default.
Classic ScottJund ragebait. :)
Man, I missed reading the forums (and watching your content). I gotta do this more often… -
Bad advice, sorry.
The moment that timer starts, the killer can zone a survivor and secure a kill.Only ways out of that situation are unforced errors or coordinated teamwork—neither of which give the survivor-in-chase much agency to decide their fate.
Do your teammate a favor and 99% the gate, identify where chase is happening, and put yourself in the best position to a) body block or b) open the gate as they approach.If you can't do either of those things, open the gate and leave so hatch spawns—you're sentencing your teammate to death otherwise.
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Seems he is bringing Sprint Burst into the meta, since its a reliable way to avoid his transition from mobility (sorry, dont know the ability names). I've seen quite a lot of people running SB + Vigil.
pre-Vigil nerf, that would have been a dream -
@ChaosWam said:
I've seen some complaints about his power, but the way I see it, this is a fair version of Nurse to me. At least, until I find out he has some insane tech or something.
Breaks the rules, requires accuracy and predictive shots, needs to hit more to actually do damage, traversal is good with a fair cooldown, plenty of warning for the survivor when against him, and a fair counterplay.
I'm content."Fair version of Nurse" captures it so well.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4027914#Comment_4027914
And I'm sure they've encountered situations like that more than once in their 25k hours. Playing out losing matches is a skill in competition in general, and if you shield yourself from it, you never improve at it. There can even be strategic advantages to giving your opponent the upper hand, if the result makes them easier to predict and or counter. Thats the danger of focusing solely on outcome bias, if you only see the ending you miss everything that was gained and lost along the journey.
Every time you are doomed to fail, the more you fight the more you improve, and the better your chances get. Giving up just assures you never rise above.
Noble, but for those that disconnect I'm sure its more of "giving up saves me wasted time and allows me to accelerate the dopamine hits"
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Okay, no one else is going to say it, so I guess I will…
