Gandor
Gandor
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554247#Comment_3554247
"Nothing that forces you to play with your teammates"
This man just forgot that a solo survivor can't pop 5 gens while being chased.
FTP+BU
Medkits
Healing in general
Protection hits
Gen cooping
Bond / empathy/ lucky star / prove / a multitude of other perks that actively encourage co-oping.
Sure he can't pop 5 gens. But he can play rat with sole survivor, left behind, lucky break and self care + key or some other variant of the same thing. It's perfectly viable build that plays for being last person in the game and taking hatch - actively playing against other teammates
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554221#Comment_3554221
Well, all 3 first points cleared then. Glad we got to at least a middle point.
About the last, I already explained why draws for survivors are counted as wins, and that is because in game hatch still counts as an escape in all factors and forms as an exit gate escape: BP, Emblems, retain your item, etc. So, being an optional, free and easy escape for the survivor based more on luck than skill, it is counted as a draw in MMR but it is still an escape in every other sense.
You can not agree with this, and if you ask me, what they should do is just remove the hatch and rework the EGC all together. But right now, it is what it is.
You don't gain any MMR. Emblems are meaningless. Draws are draws and not wins.
Purpose of hatch is to not have 1 hour long games and to give hope to last survivor(s) in otherwise meaningless match. It beats survivor hiding "forever" (as the only alternative if you remove hatch). If you have better idea to fix this, I am OK with supporting your view though
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554216#Comment_3554216
It doesnt matter what you "feel" , a 5 gen pop + 3E will forever be a win. Stop trying to strawman.
Survivors are a team and either win as a team or lose as a team.
Survivors popping all gens and getting a 2E because the killer decided to facecamp 2 Survivors in endgame still means the survivor team won the game and there's no way around this.
Dbd is a 1 v 4, not a 1v1+1+1+1.
It's about as logical as your argument of 2K being killer loss. Deal with it. 2K will forever be draw.
Also I would exactly argue DBD is 1 v 1+1+1+1. You don't have cumulative score or cumulative BP. You don't have anything that forces you to even play w your teammates. Heck you have perks that helps you if your teammates die
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Killers don't need to camp/tunnel to win. It's just easier. Survivors don't need to genrush to win. It's just easier. Make those tactics less then optimal and something else will take it's place - the question is how to do it, that those other things will be fair and fun for both sides more then actual version.
To be frank, I don't know what it would be. And I am too afraid that the change would be a bad one. DBD is good (sure it has a lot of quirks and unfun things, but it's fun). It would be shame to ruin it
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554160#Comment_3554160
Points 1, and 2, I don't know how to explain it better to you. If I play 50 games and cherry-pick 1 to get 3min game - does it mean I can replay 50 out of 50 times 3 minute game?
They played those games in a row. No cherry picking. And even him himself said at the end of the video "10 games, 3 minutes 22 seconds on averages per game". Period. I don't know what you are on about, but stop it and answer already: Are you saying than the MM failed for 10 games straight and the toppiest of the top MMR players where paired with bad killers 10 times in a row?
Is it hard to grasp that there's a good chance MM failed in 1 or 2 cases out of those 10 games
Alright, lets see each one of the times of the 10 games:
- 3:26.62
- 3:09.16
- 3:06.26
- 2:57.67
- 3:13.07
- 3:25.82
- 3:23.85
- 3:30.03
- 4:22.16
- 2:54.10
So, according to you, in what 1 or 2 of those perfectly normal and totally average day match times the MM failed and the "Top tier MMR player that plays at high level everytime and proved that you can play with any killer and win and if you don't you are just bad" get a bad killer?
then you should reread my original post because you got it absolutely in reverse and didn't get a thing.
Let me re-read it, then... yep, my point still stands.
YOU ARE COUNTING killer draw the same way as killer win. [...]
I'm not counting killers draws, because a draw for a killer is not a win in any way, while a draw for a survivor is still a win in all terms that they get as an optional free easy escape. So, again, survivors wins 47.52% matches while killers win 45.77% on average, and no amount of copium is going to change that. And I have to point out it is not the first time you try to do the same of flipping the thing and make it about losses when proved wrong, and it is as valid as the first time you tried. Come on, dude.
Ok. That one prooves that genrush squad of 4 comp players in pub games (where soft cap exists - so those players would win all those games anyway) can reliably (with variance because 10 is statistically low number still but large enough to see reliable trend) make a game last 3 minutes 22 seconds on average. No argument there.
Let me re-read it, then... yep, my point still stands.
Ok then. Extremes are extremes and shouldn't be counted as norm. I wrote so in first post, but you are trying to reverse the point to me to proof IDK what.
I'm not counting killers draws, because a draw for a killer is not a win in any way
Agreed. But it's not a loss as well. You can't bundle wins and compare it to wins when you have draws if other side does not have draws (disregarding hatches). The only fair thing is to split difference. Yet you don't do that. So if you are this "greedy", then all I can do is make a same point but about losses - survivors loose games more then killers so killers are actually OP. Now it's word against word, but the difference is also in a fact, that even if you split difference, killers are still holding prime over survivors (because kill rate is above 50%). If kill rate was actually 50% (and presuming normal distribution of 0-1K vs 3-4K) then it's actually good measure of "split difference" on it's own.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554171#Comment_3554171
It doesnt matter what the devs classify as a win/loss/tie for MMR purposes.
Just the simple fact that an actual expert survivor can lose mmr because he died via endgame camping is enough of a counterpoint towards the accuracy of Dev definition of wins/losses.
A match where the survivors popped all gens in 4-5 minutes but the killer 1 hook camped 2 survivors in endgame to death doesnt mean it was a "draw". Nobody would call this a fair/even match , The killer was still effectively beaten by the survivor team.
If you count a 5 gen pop as a "score event" you'll still end up with survivors scoring 3 Points (5 gen pop + 2 escape) and killer 2 points (2k) , effectively a 3-2 score in survivors favour.
Again, less than 3k is a killer loss.
Ah but your definition is so much better. Just because dev's version can have quirks (that actually normalize in large-enough sample size) you define 2k as a killer loose and consider it better because of ??????? That's about as reliable as saying 3 out is killer win, because no normal person would ever consider having died or having friend die in some trial a success.
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@kaoraku said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551389#Comment_3551389
How would be in another part of the building is the same as facecamping?
Some main buildings have exactly 1 entrance to upper floor (that being stairs and killer having hook on upper floor). Any survivor that wants to rescue their fellow teammate literally have to touch killer that decides to camp at the bottom of the stairs.
It means you are technically not face camping if you are staying there instead of staying 1m away from hooked survivor. But what is practical difference between those 2? I literally see none. In both cases you need to let hooked survivor die or go within 1m of killer. Why would you not consider such a thing effectively face camping?
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@EternalHails said:
@Gandor Why is it a win or a loss? Carefully read the message to which you replied. There you will read that the tools are too affordable. If all four of them take it, it accelerates the generation so much that it simply breaks the game. It looks just as absurd as if I tunneled purely one survivor on 5 generators on a nurse/spirit
I am defining win/loss same way as developers define MMR. Meaning each kill (no matter how you got to that point) is a win and each escape is killer loss - with specific exception of a hatch escape that counts as nullification of the match. Killer is playing "4 games" in a single trial simultaniously = 1 game with each survivor.
So for survivor if he escapes via gate, he won. If he escapes via hatch, it's the same as if he didn't play at all and if he gets sacrificed in any way he lost.
Not counting some details (like MMR difference and such) to simplify stuff - if killers get 3+kills it results in a overall killer's win. If he gets 2 kills it's a draw. If he gets 1 or less kills, he overall lost.
This was explained directly by devs when explaining how MMR works - and I directly adopted is as a win condition. Is that sufficient answer? Or should I clarify any point (no sarcasm or anything else meant in these questions - read them literally please)?
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553680#Comment_3553680
1.- I don't think that even you know what you are trying to say there. Specially the "MM failed 10 times in a row". I mean, are you saying that the MM have failed 10 times in a row in the world record video and they got low MMR bad killers for 10 games?...
2.- Then again, what you are saying is that those top high MMR pros that literally live out of playing the game got bad killers 10 times in a row? Are we starting the conspiracy of content creators not getting rivals based on their MMR, or it's just that in this particular case it is not convenient for you to accept this fact?
- Hens wins 9/10 games with trapper: "He was playing against the best of the best, the 'crème de la crème', the more hardcore and tryhard survivors this game could ever have spawned, because Hens has the highest MMR possible and the MM confronts him with the toppiest of the top MMR players. That's why it proves if you can't win with any killer, you are simply bad".
- Hens makes gens in 3 minutes average 9/10 games: "He was playing against bad killers. Yep, bad killers. A good killer won't allow them to do the gens so fast. Killers were low MMR tier with skill issues, without doubt".
3.- No, I pointed that the logic behind your claim was flawed by reversing it to a similar situation, but from the other side.
4.- ... wha? If you are trying to argue the 47.28% includes the survivors "draws", I remember you that a draw for a survivor is not the same that for a killer, as it is technically still an escape with all the rewards that come with it, even if it was through a free optional and easy way. And even with Nightlight data, only 33 of 400 survivors in 100 matches even had it available, so it's not the difference you think it is.
Points 1, and 2, I don't know how to explain it better to you. If I play 50 games and cherry-pick 1 to get 3min game - does it mean I can replay 50 out of 50 times 3 minute game? Or did I have to cherry-pick (because I am literally trying to cherry-pick a game where I get a world record)?
If I play 10 games straight when I define starting point without any cherry-picking and then win 9 out of 10 games - does that mean I had lucky games 9 times out of 10? Or does it mean that something I do have about (with some statistical variation for low sample size) about 90% chance to work?
Is this still really that hard concept to grasp? Is it hard to grasp that there's a good chance MM failed in 1 or 2 cases out of those 10 games, but 7 other games represent pure skill difference while playing for world record exactly tries as many games to get those 1 or 2 MM fails instead?
point 3, then you should reread my original post because you got it absolutely in reverse and didn't get a thing.
point 4, YOU ARE COUNTING killer draw the same way as killer win. You pit survivor wins against killer wins and compare those directly. That is the same as pitting BOTH survivor loss to killer loss + killer draw (saying that killer draw is exactly the same as killer loss) - and by "virtue" of this warped logic argue that killers should get more wins. That's wrong. Doing the same thing from exactly the other side - match survivor losses to killer losses (so 0-1 kills to survivor deaths) and now we see killers have the game too easy, because they loose much less then survivor - and the difference is not just 1.24% but quite some more. To be precise killers loose just 44.14% of matches instead of 47.52% making the difference 3.38% in favor of killers - clearly they need nerf instead by exactly just as warped logic as what you provided (and my number is 272% worse then yours).
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553680#Comment_3553680
https://youtu.be/Bxf3uzI--ik?si=nTGuDuO0XlhYC_9M
Im not doing any difficult math, its literally what happened in the games, even with hooks and saves, they still popped all 5 and left in ~3 minutes. Game 1 is a *perfect example*
Lets be real here, a killer 2k (Community claimed tie) is still effectively a killer Loss, a 2k implies survivors did all their gens and were on their way out. Game 7 + Game 9 on the video are *perfect examples* of this.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553685#Comment_3553685
A 50% Killrate implies 2 kills out of 4. (because you know, basic math says that half of 4 is 2) which in turn, for this to be a reality, survivors have to pop all 5 gens since only 1 person can escape trough hatch.
As i've said above, even though a 2k is considered a tie by the community, its effectively still a killer loss because all 5 gens were popped and the survivors were on their way out.
You are SO DAMN MUCH BIASED. Talking from same bias argument 3 out is survivor loss and devs should adjust for 50% chance of 4 out
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553652#Comment_3553652
So, when it fits your narrative, Hens is such a good and pro player he is in the highest MMR possible and confronts always the best players this game can produce. When not, they get the world record on gen repair times because they went against bad killers.
To your next point: What in the fog are you talking about and what it has to do with anything I said?
And your last paragraph: It was you who employed that logic in a fallacious point. I just reversed it so you can see how absurd it is. Now you try to deflect by saying "I'm bringing up more extremes". K, dude, K...
Also, it's funny, because I'm just answering in another post about kill and win rates, and according to Nightlight the kill rate is right know at 53.7%, with killers doing more than 3K only 46.04% of the time. In other words, survivors are winning 47.3% of their games, while killers just 46.04%. Not that Nightlight it's the ultimate source of data as it depends on users manually uploading it, but there you go.
1, hens is high MMR and gets good survivors. If MMR works. As everyone knows, you will get bad MM from time to time. If you need 1 game out of 50 to set record, you get vastly different result when you start to record next upcoming 10 (or more for those other streamers) games and record that. Or are you saying MM failed 10 (or 9) times in a row? Or will you repeat yourself that these 2 things are not different at all?
2, do you think you can get world record escape against lilith omen? Or supaalf? Or onepumpwillie? Or even Hens/Otz? Because I am pretty sure no matter your build and coordination, you just won't get close to 3 minutes against them (and these streamers are just extreme example to illustrate the point - even regular good killer will keep you in game longer then those 3 minutes).
3, how can you reverse my point by pointing the thing I hinted as stupid? Or are you saying that when I say taking speedruns is nonsense, that averaging good survivor vs bad survivor game makes some sensible point? How? I fail to see it.
4, so killer loosing a game is the same as drawing. 2k does not exists or is the same as loosing the game. Do I get your point right? Draw=loose in your world? Because survivor can't half-die. So comparing killer wins to sirvivor wins is just as fair as comparing killer loosing to survivor loosing (see - according to nightlight killer looses way less often as survivor)
@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553652#Comment_3553652
You know very well that Hens' speedrun video proved your claims completely wrong, at super high MMR with killers bringing corrupt, DL, No way out etc, and actively *trying to win* they still managed 5 gen pops + escapes in 3~ minutes
Do you have any idea how many chases a killer can do in 3 minutes at a VERY GOOD 30 seconds max a chase? 6 chases... a whole lot of *SIX* chases..... Now if you're realistic and include the time to find the survivor +travel + hook, you're looking at *at a minimum* of 45-60s between chases. at that point you get.... 3 chases.... ***THREE WHOLE CHASES IN A MATCH*
You're welcome to grab a normal speedrun match (No farming / AFK) and point out the "killer mistakes" that allowed the speedrun to happen.
But im feeling nice so I'll save you the trouble. "Well the killer didn't bring corrupt or deadlock"
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On the topic of killrates, a 50% killrate is not fair at all thats a killer loss/Tie every game and never a win.
Its time to stop being so survivor biased.
You clearly watched different video then. Some video that does not exists to my knowledge. Not surprising one bit at this point.
Not to mention your magical math that counts with people on hook and people going for a rescue still progressing gens somehow.
As to your last sentence... match killer losses to survivor losses and count the rest to wins then. But your bias will never allow you to comptehend that you just can't bundle losses with draws together and pit them against wins. Draw is not a loose. I know it's hard concept to grasp on this forum, but really. Counting draw as lost game is just not fair
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@EternalHails said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553430#Comment_3553430
the only problem is that I want to play normally. It looks so capricious if you take for example the spirit of the survivors killing themselves after the first fall. And if you want to play a long competition on the M1 killer, it won't work like that, and choosing perks only to slow down the generator is so boring. the current meta is pretty disgusting even though I'm not a dbd veteran
and what is the point of citing as an example a person who recorded 1,000,000 hours in dbd and this is literally a large part of his life. I'm sorry, but that's not what I'm going to turn my life into.
I don't play the game to win, I play the game for the thrill. and what feelings can there be? and a general question to all. how can you win on m1 killer without resorting to tunneling when the survivors have 4 boxes with tools and more in chests? this is a rhetorical question
So the problem is, that the game is impossible to win? Or that you can't win every time?
Killers already have above 50% kill rate. That's more then fair share. This is multiplayer game and every time you win, someone else has to loose. You just can't ask developers to buff your side "to always win" (without looking biased/spoiled).
Also, nobody asks you to play powerless trapper that can't camp/tunnel/slug. The video shows you that you can win most of the games even under these conditions if you are that good (meaning skill matters and it's actually on you).
@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553112#Comment_3553112
You are stomping against a brick wall. If they don't understand by now that even in their "real scenarios" at some point of the match survivors are going to group up to do a gen, even if it is by chance, and that alone implies 37 seconds less for a killer to pressure that gen whatever by disturbing them or applying a regression perk, they are not going to understand by the simple fact they don't want to.
Let them keep saying that an specific setup with multiple survivors with "gigaboxes" and everyone in a single gen is the problem of gens flying in your average game at the same time they argue that the 2:40 was because an specific situation with specific builds and don't represents your average game.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553430#Comment_3553430
Do you realize that like in any world record of a killer, survivors have more to do with it than the killer, right? If any of those survivors just started running instead of staying in there then there would be no record. Survivors gen times would be comparable to killers 4K if gens wasn't static things that can't do whatever is in their hands for you to not get them. I mean, come on...
And please, tell me where my point was about survivors spawn or their toolboxes, when I argue precisely that those are just symptoms of the real disease. Also, tell me where I said that there is a need to raise generator times when I'm talking about making the min floor higher without touching the 90 second max.
And following your logic, what does it matter if a killer does a 4K at 5 gens without letting survivors touch a gen if there are survivors that can do a 4 escape when the killer only had one or two hooks? Stop complaining about OP killers or how is so hard to go against them!... See? That is a flawed logic if I ever saw one.
No. It's the same thing. Survivors trying to genrush for world record are literally THE most vulnerable survivors they can be.
Meaning they HAVE TO face bad killer - or they will not get world record. Same thing as killer can't down team eternal in under 1 minute. I fail to see the difference.
To your next point - how can 4 survivors fix 4 gens when they are actively pressured (away from static location) and downed (killer's micro and macro skill) within 30s of spawning? You just can't work on a gen if you are downed or on hook - and that's killer's agency. You can be genrushed only if you as a killer fail to pressure them. I am not talking how hard that is (as that greatly differs depending on many aspects - but average case like tinkering with generator times affects all cases and for these I will again delegate to above 50% kill rate) - but the end result is the same.
To your last paragraph - I said myself to ignore extremes as they make little sense (because 2 mins gens and 4 health state survivors is stupid) - so bringing up more extremes is just confirming what I already said. So I don't get your point
@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553430#Comment_3553430
You bring that otz video as if its "proof" of anything regarding killer.
You had all Survivors doing colossal messups + starstruck value for free.
First meg sticks the gen instead of running, free hit 1. Then ends up DHing for distance into a wall... free hit 2.
Ace for some reason walks around the little booth instead of booking it and gets 1 shot by starstruck , free hit + free down.
Bill sticks the gen for some unknown reason and gets starstruck too, free hit + freedown again.
4th girl attempts to pickup in the killers face even though at this point it was obvious the killer had a oneshot perk and gets... you guessed it... one shot...
It was almost like survivors were just throwing themselves at the killer....
Killers dont go into a match attempting a speedrun because thats not something in the killers control.
Survivors can attempt speedruns because they can actually control the gen times.
When even soloQ lobbies can crank out gens in 4-6 minutes it's a clear indicator that gens are too fast.
So if killers play bad for a speedrun, then it's game problem. But if survivors play bad, then it's survivor's fault? Were you not the one talking that I have a bias?
Because let's be honest. If you can't down someone in 3 minutes (effectively ruining speedrun) - then that means you are bad killer (at least compared to your survivors). There's just no way around that one
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@TwiztedMannix said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3524332#Comment_3524332
The fun came out when a SWF joins a lobby, my suggestion is just based on speeding up the killer's hunt since SWF's don't care about hiding and if in Hi MMR you are forced into high speed matches so this just "speeds up the thought processes" of everybody instead of making it sweaty at hi MMR, IMO. It brings back tension to this game, I've seen so many people not scared of killer's nearby and other people dodging chases for gen rush only games. I believe a random section of a map blocked (under a certain amount but not too much) should bring back some fun but for people with way more knowledge of the game. They want a fast game, so give them a fast game, think like Shipment in CoD.
Do you have any recommendation or adjustment to make it less sweaty? I just want to be in a non sweaty SWF lobby for once.
I just don't agree with your accessment. High level survivors are turbo-effective, because otherwise it's certain loss.
And that is fine. Some people don't want to be too effective and just want to mess around. That's why they are mid MMR.
This applies to both sides equally. There are literally players with over 1000 wins in a row (meaning 3+ kills per game)
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https://youtu.be/vaR-9_Vjp3s?si=5tCHV3Zn97kmhKLE@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552436#Comment_3552436
And you see absolutely no problem with killer being forced to either only play nurse and blight , or being pigeonholed into playing 4 slowdowns, or dedicating 25-50% of a build to have a marginally fairer match IF the survivors don't bring distortion and outright delete your LP?
When survivors already play with 5-6 perks thanks to basekit BT+ items , it makes no sense to not extend the same benefit to killer with either basekit LP or basekit corrupt.
You don't need to camp/tunnel/slug/use any perks/use any abilities to win if you are really good. Meaning you are definitely not forced to play blight/nurse or going for 4 slowdowns.
@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552474#Comment_3552474
"It is not relevant to my point" It is relevant, because you are making a point against gen times. You wanting to use mental gymnastics to turn around the argument to "your point" is what is not relevant here. It's like a restaurant having awful food, and the chef saying "well, people can put sauces on top of it and mix various things so it is not that bad, also most of the time our food is fine depending on who cook it". Alright, but the possibility of the food being awful is still a base problem, and we should address it. In other words, you keep trying to derail the main argument to your point while yet again ignoring the base problem.
And I know what you are saying, and my answer to that is you are so wrong. It is present in every single match because it is the minimum the generator mechanic allow survivors to do, so it doesn't matter if they just shaves off 50 seconds instead of 60, they should not be able to shave off that much time in the first place. Spawn, toolboxes and progression perks are just symptoms of the disease, and solving the base problem would solve the rest. But you don't have to believe me, let's do the math:
- One survivor with Commodious Toolbox:
32 charges at 1.5 c/s during 21.333 seconds + 58 charges at 1 c/s base progression = 90 charges in 79.333 seconds.
- Two survivors, one of them with Commodious Toolbox:
(32 charges at 1.275 c/s) + (32 charges at 0.85 c/s) during 21.333 seconds = 45.332625 charges done.
90 charges - 45.332625 charges = 44.667375 charges left.
44.667375 charges at (0.85 * 2) = 26.27492647058824 seconds.
21.333 + 26.27492647058824 = 90 charges in 47.60792647058824, or 47.608 seconds.
- Two survivors, both of them with Commodious Toolbox:
32 charges at 2.55 c/s during 21.333 seconds = 54.39915 charges done.
90 charges - 54,39915 charges = 35.60085 charges left.
35.60085 charges at 1.7 c/s = 20.94167647058824 seconds.
21.333 + 20.94167647058824 = 90 charges in 42.27467647058824, or 42.275 seconds.
In conclusion:
- One survivor with the toolbox would only shave up 10 seconds from a gen.
- Two survivors, just one with a toolbox, would shave up only 6 seconds more than not having the toolbox at all.
- Two survivors, both with a toolbox, is slightly more effective than having 3 survivors doing the gen without any toolbox, and only 5 seconds more effective than only using one.
Now, with the numbers in place it is more than obvious than the toolboxes are not the main problem, as you would need two survivors with the best toolbox in the same gen at the same time and apply the full toolbox to that gen to be worth it, and doing that would left the toolboxes empty, so they would have waste them and aren't able to do it in another gen. And as you want to strictly argument about "realistic averages", this situation won't happen in random games unless at least two survivors are in SWF and decide to do it.
So, the problem are not the toolboxes adding too much to the base progression, the problem is not two or more survivors spawning in one generator, the problem is and always have being the base progression of two or more survivors allowing them to do one gen in at least 37 seconds less by default before adding other progression bonus on top. And taking in count that both toolboxes and progression perk works in a percentage basis, solving this big problem by lowering the progression multiplayer when two or more survivors are in a gen you would also solve every single smaller problem related to it. Easy, and simple.
Now, the big question: Are you going to admit you were wrong, or are you going to keep ignoring it and trying to make the argument about other points?
If 3 mins is too quick for survivor, then sure. Make gens 2 mins each. But we also have records like this
View Dead by Daylight speedruns, leaderboards, forums and more on Speedrunso this means we also have to add 2 health states to survivor by exactly the same logic. If we consider downing only, I saw some insane bubba speedruns with double iri addons - my guess is they were in under single minute (I can be wrong, but it was super quick). Or maybe it might make sense to forget about extremes and look at the average case? Which already states killers have above 50% kill rate - so there's ABSOLUTELY no need to raise generator times any longer.
Also - you keep talking about point where survivors spawn on a gen and use their toolbox for it immediately. I had countless of games where I had 1st chase a bit clumsy (alternatively survivor was predropping everything with WoO) which results in 3 gens in first chase. But the match ended in 4K at 2 gens regardless. It's all and only about killer being able to create pressure vs survivors being able to loop for long enough without using too many resources. That's it. What does it matter if even 5 gens pop quickly if all the survivors end up dying? And again - kill rate is clearly stating killers are more advantageous.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553344#Comment_3553344
I can not confirm that they reduce the pallet spawns frequently since i am only back less then a month. But i was suprised to say the least how extreme they buffed killer in every department. Dont get me wrong, some stuff had to get adjusted, but i think they went way to far with so many things.
The problem is, as you mention the killer main mentality. I can understand why that is. You win 20 games in a row with killer, then you get destroyed a single time by a very strong team or bad rng and you forget completly that you just had a streak. The one game where the killer gets destroyed sticks out so much, that it overshadows all the previous victories. I for myself can confirm this.
On the other hand, in survivor games, it is not such a big deal when you die, and actually the great games where you held the killer for a long time sticks out the most, you forget that you just got facecamped 3 times in a row.
My final suggestion for the devs: Add more pallets and the majority of realms, make those absurd unsafe pallets more safe. After all the killer buffs this game apparently had in the last 2 years, it is time to adjust into the other direction. Dont let yourself get fooled by killer main complains, they are in most cases unjustified. Look at the data. 60% winrate on killer is not normal. Especially because the real number is much higher (Killer give hatch, killer also stay afk, killer farm, killer have mercy and let the last survivor(s) do the remaining gens ect).
I don't agree with this. Being wiped out "hurts" the same for both sides. At least for me
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551223#Comment_3551223
Hey AutmLeaf
Your 20 pallets example is a bit extreme, and it really might (or might not) only apply to a single realm, which is The Game. I admit that having like 8 or even less pallets is also an extreme example, but it happens relative often. I had it on multible occasions during my research.
Talking about reseach:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551602#Comment_3551602
I was a bit skeptical about that data, since my senses usually wont betray me by estimating or guessing in something i regulary do. Those numbers seem to be way to high to be true, so i did my own testing again, over a course of 140 tries across multible maps. All my data i collected is double and even tripple checked and completly honest.
First i started with "very pallet intense" maps acording to the link you posted. Here are my result:
- Eyrie of Crows: Supposed to have between 12 and 26 pallets, which makes it an average of 19. This number is far far off my research. I have not encountered a single time more then 16 pallets. In fact, out of the 20 tries i had on this map, i had 17 rounds with 13 pallets, 1 time 16, 1 time 12 and 1 time 11 (checked multible times) which is off the charts. This all makes an average of exactly 13 pallets.
- Shattered Square: This one is supposed to have an absurd number of an average of 20 pallets. My average was way lower then that, and i have not been on a single map with more then 15 pallets in my 20 tries. The average: 13,9 Pallets per trial.
- Since people talk about that map, i did 20 tries on Wreckers Yard. All my tries were between 12 and 14 pallets. The average was 12,9 pallets.
- Rotten field: Average of 10,5 pallets, had tries with 9 pallets, maximum of 13.
- Thomson House: Maybe i was really unlucky in my 20 games, but i had not a single map with more then 10 pallets! 9 or 10 pallets are the standard there. 9,5 Pallets on average.
- Mothers Dwelling, i did only a few on those had between 10 and 12 pallets.
- Last but not least the "requested" Cowshed. Between 12 and 14 pallets. 20 games seed.
What is even more outstanding besides a very low amount of pallets is this:
The amount of pallets that are not even considered "weak" but rather a safe hit are very high. You encounter those like i show in the picture on almost every single map, often more then 1 of those "tiles". If you rules those out, the pallet count is much lower obviously.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/70PL1C4DP9ZN/dbd-weak-pallets.jpg
Another thing that stand out are the amount of pallets on the very outside of the map. If you are forced as a survivor to play those, you might steal some time, but you are guaranteed to go down there since you are zone out.
This brings me to another thing: Deadzones.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9BOPWQA98I8Z/dbd-deadzones.jpg
What you see on that picture is not uncommon. In fact i almost had on every map those deadzones. On this picture, there is only 1 pallet (main building) and 1 bad tile (T&L). This area is like 25-30% of the map. And for those sneaky players out there, i dont need to mention the lack of possibilitys.
I did more smaller research (like for example Coal Tower which had between 7 and 11 pallets or dead dawg saloon). But i thought i would not include those, since i am also excluding the most survivor sided map (the Game) in terms of pallets.
Kind regards
I 100% believe you. The picture I posted was 10 months old in my source thread - so only god knows how old it really is.
The thing I also noticed and complained about a lot is, that about every 1-2 weeks or so a single pallet from some random map goes missing on average.
Sometimes the count goes brutally down - like with reworked cowshed or the last time they changed the game (from 32 pallets on average to 25 - this is also the point from which I consider the map rather killer sided then surv sided).
Like I do understand that those maps WERE unfair. No argument there. But why is it always only (with small exceptions like at least breaking the worst 3gen on one RPD) maps that favor survivors, that need to ve changed while saloon and Midwitch "looks to be perfect" - and there are many more killer favoring maps then those 2.
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@D0NN1ED4RK0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553235#Comment_3553235
Personally I just want the cooldown reduced cause 40 seconds is way too much really that’s all I personally want for the perk
I agree to that. 40s is way too much
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553219#Comment_3553219
perk useful on x killer = perk busted. nurse does not need I'm all ears to down you and neither does PH. if i'm all ears is not good enough to be used on nurse then nurse will just use pop goes weasel+eruption, nowhere to hide or other perks that bring more value. that is how you get everyone using same perks.
I get your message, I just don't think this is the case for it. It's possible I didn't formulate myself correctly, so here goes:
The perk without any CD would be strong on all killers as it basically removes survivor mind games (that in itself might not be busted, but it still might make the game boring as looping might be much less worth the effort).
On some killers, it would be busted - as it would make downing from behind a wall quite easy.
I think having some CD while being useful enough to be considered is actually more reasonable
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553046#Comment_3553046
maybe stop vaulting 2nd floor windows vs nurse and looping tilesets vs nurse?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552880#Comment_3552880
I'm all ears is like troubleshooter on survivor. a chase perk that not worth using. the perk could have no cooldown and many killer would still likely not use it. i think the point where killer might start using it is if it worked periodically near a window where you can see aura of survivors in 6 meter radius for 6 seconds. at the same time, killer can just run bamboozle and use 15% vault speed as mind game by going past window like going left, then right then vaulting the window as the survivor goes back and forth on the other side. If your super pressed to delete windows, you can stack both superior anatomy and bamboozle.
Not every perk needs to be useful on every killer. I think I am all ears without CD would be busted on some killers (namely nurse and pyramidhead) - still it would be useful on all killers as it would delete almost all mindgames from survivors.
I think the perk could definitely use buff, but not CD removal.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552997#Comment_3552997
that is kinda the purpose of the perk. you could be right that these perks might be over-buffed. at the same time, nobody uses these perks with their current values.
I'd start with 10s at most. Or use OP's version. 30s stealth for single blind sounds nuts.
But I agree all the mentioned perks need buffs. I just don't want super perks 🙂
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/392841/perks-that-could-use-a-buff
i like attempt to buff residual manifest but i think it would be better if the perk suppresses the survivor's scratch marks, blood marks and grunts of pain for 30 seconds after being blinded.
I like your attempt to improve friendly competition. I would add an additional improvement that removes duration time limit of the perk similar to deja vu.
the other perks are too risky to buff.
there are two perks that i would like to see buffed for survivor because i think they're really bad. the two perks are parental guidance and self-preservation.
For parental guidance, I would like them to change activation condition from pallet-stunning to pallet dropping and increase duration from 5/6/7 seconds to 10/11/12 seconds.
for self-preservation, I would like them to increase the radius from 16 meters to 32 meters firstly. secondly, I would like to add new effect to the perk which makes you immune to screaming in addition to scratch marks, grunts of pain and blood pool suppression. lastly, the numbers should be improved from 8/9/10 to 30/40/50 seconds.
Wouldn't that be too much? No scratchmarks for 30s just for breaking pallet (blind while animation locked)? This could create some serious loosing chase survivors (especially if combined with other stealth perks like new no footsteps perk)
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Very much depends on killer, map, swf/soloQ, RNG of loops, skill level, etc.
But considering strongest stuff on both sides (both sides 10k hrs each, 4xSWF with meta loadout vs meta blight with meta builds), it's slightly killer sided - but not super much.
Overall it really depends.
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Agreed on both accounts. I just wanted to write that 24m radius and 30s CD would be reasonable (double) buff.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552645#Comment_3552645
Midwitch is ultimate hold W map, it's not really overall killer sided. Most M1 killers are not happy about it, but there is few killers that you really don't want to see...
Most of my best chases were on Midwitch, because it's just easy with those windows.
I don't mind Saloon overall, but 3-gen should be fixed there for sure.
Well, survivors get basekit features, so killers get map reworks... that's basically only thing they can change to work for all killers.
IDK. I love that map for killers. Even M1 killers. It's tiny so TR is everpresent and half the time survivors run at you. It has huge amount of pallets, but most of them are bad (some are really bad, some are "you die here, it will just take a second", classroom pallets are usually strong - if you are lucky to get pallet instead of just chairs), but sure - there are 2 absolute god pallets too). IMO this one is THE most killer sided map in game. Not even counting nurse
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That level of information changes exactly and precisely nothing. If I have teammate at harvester (or anywhere in 10m vicinity) - I just don't go there. But suppose I had to blink precisely at someone with 3m distance to get a hit....
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
Garden of Joy is by far one of the most unbalanced maps in the game and needs to be changed.
Agreed. But so is saloon (with it's 3gen), Midwitch (size and quality of pallets), pale rose (after rework this one has barely any pallets and is quite small for it), etc. Yet it's only survivor-favoring maps (or neutral like Rancid) that gets rework in favor of killers.
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@mizark3 said:
In the light of Trapper's basekitting of Coffee Grounds, what are some other simple buffs that you would like/think wouldn't be too much? Here are some ideas I have.
Myers: T2 normally takes 5 stalk points, and T3 takes 5 stalk points. The suggestion is to shift T2 to 1 stalk point, and the first T3 taking 9 stalk points (subsequent T3s still needing 5 points). That way it still takes 10 points total for T3, but you can become a normal M1 Killer sooner without taking too many stalk points from the first person found. Also add-ons like Hair Bow show that they have the codebase to have a first/subsequent stalk rate be different. Tombstone Piece also deletes old progress, so this would require the full 9 points in addition to the 15 bonus points needed, removing the ability to use it twice in one match.
Freddy: Toggle for Pallets/Snares like Clown bottles, with recycling the oldest trap like Singularity/Hag (and more). To keep the same number of each trap, it could have 15 tokens, with 2 tokens per pallet and 3 tokens per snare (5x3 is 15 tokens for 5 snares, and 7x2 is 14 tokens for 7 pallets).
Clown: +1 basekit bottle. Additionally (or alternatively) yellow bottles take .5s instead of 1s to activate. If 8 bottles are too many, then the shorter yellow bottle suggestion could replace one of the bottle count add-ons. (Redhead's Pinky finger would need -4 bottles instead of -3 to keep them starting at 1 bottle.)
Pig: Reduce the Charge miss CD from 2s -> 1.75s, maybe even 1.5s.
Legion: Feral Frenzy Vault time from .9s -> .78s. This change would basically be basekitting Bamboozle speed back when it worked on power vaults. (Technically Bamboozle and Fire Up used to work with Frenzy vaults, but after Wesker came out they removed vault speed perks from affecting power based vaults. Singularity and Wraith add-ons give a vault speed bonus, and Myers reduces the base vault speed value, so they aren't 'power vaulting'.)
Ghostface: Revealing Ghostface applies Hindered 10% to the Survivor who revealed him for the Killer Instinct duration (2s default, 4s with Marked Map). You can't reveal when you are Marked (without frame perfect reveal + latency), so no worries about this double punishing players. This just helps Ghostface in chase to either force Survivors to not look and enable greater mindgames, or look and potentially slow themselves down. You can also reveal leading into a vault/pallet for safe counterplay. If this is too powerful we could raise the stalk CD back up to 24s rather than 20s from the previous buff.
I like all of these but Meyers. Meyers just needs good number buffs and delete kill addons (especially piece). All the other buffs feels fine. This includes 10% hindered for GF (and I don't think it would be too much).
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@artblizzard said:
Well if SWF will get yet another base kit perk (btw in a all honesty, I don't really like the new anti-camp mechanic since there's a way around it but that not the main topic).
Since there's now having BT and Adam's perk as base kit, why not give killer a base kit as well, like shadowborn or a perk similar to that nature?
all these things are being balanced by butchering best survivor maps (eyrie, cowshed, borgo, garden) or straight up buffing maps for killer (rancid) while leaving heavily killer-sided maps without any change (Saloon, Midwitch).
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@ProHillbillyMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551988#Comment_3551988
Well Nurse no longer is as oppressive as she used to be thanks to double recharge / range addons not existing, meaning now when she misses her 2 blinks you have enough distance and spirit is strong but balanced.
But blight? Nah, 4.6, oppressive power and one of the best mobilities and best addons.
agreed on all points. I would just repeat myself, that I 100% agree basekit blight (even with hug tech) is perfectly fine the way he is. He just needs his 5 OP addons reigned down and he's fine (where double speed is problem only for the fact that they are stacking. Looking at picture above - iri tag and C21 are fine too even though they are strong addons).
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He really said bond is stronger then NWH.... He really does not see difference between seeing teammates and seeing opponent. WOW
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552120#Comment_3552120
It's just funny to me, how you are going against your previous arguments.
With MFT you used lower pick rate as a proof it's not OP perk, but suddenly time is needed and paywall is an issue...
aura reveal > screaming
simple as that
Exactly because we saw with MfT, that it wasn't used a lot at the beginning (probably because people didn't have it) but then it ramped up. All I am saying is, let's wait and see if this repeats itself. I have a hunch it will, just because of how much utility this perk provided to me compared to any other tracking perk. Also wait and see means that after some time I can be wrong (again) :)
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552093#Comment_3552093
Aura reveal will always be better as an effect, because you get option to sneak up on survivors and it's more precise and longer duration. UW basically gives information to both sides. It also doesn't work on stealth killers.
From MFT we can see paywall is not an issue.
it took some time to ramp up. Give it also some time
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551963#Comment_3551963
Because finding a survivor, and getting into a close ranged chase with a survivor, can be very different.
Survivors revealed by ultimate weapon will very often immediately run away and hide, and by the time you get to where they were during the scream reveal, they’ve already gone somewhere else to hide.
And many other killers understand this difference too, which is why aura reading perks are still more popular than ultimate weapon.
it's behind paywall. Give it time. UW is by far much better.
Also I don't get how you could have problem finding survivor. He either runs so you can track scratch marks or he doesn't and he must be very close to scream location. And I experienced it from both sides. This is just always the case.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551972#Comment_3551972
"How does getting packet in wrong timing allow you to sprint for a long time" Simple: The Cheryl in the video is getting extreme high latency by lag switching to exploit the lag compensation and make the server don't realize the Sprint Burst or the bonus speed on hit should have ended long ago (that's why it only works when he hit her or uses Sprint Burst). But whatever it is the case or not, it is still lag / high latency's fault (check 2:48. She literally get placed in the wrong place and "phased" through a wall because she is lagging like hell) and what it is shown in the video could happen even if not intentionally and for a short time with a latency spike, just as the rollback can place you somewhere you don't even was before as happens in my video. Also, I don't think you really know how a lag switch works, as that Cheryl is in fact lag switching.
And for more proof of this being "weaponized high latency", even if we get back to Counter Strike:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5QyNA6H6rY
And I know that you had become a networking guru in a couples of days, but before we print the title you should have a look at what a buffer in programming is. More specific in this case, a packet buffer:
https://www.techopedia.com/definition/2796/packet-buffer
The packets don't get lost just because your bandwidth isn't enough (most of the time), they get buffered to be sent as soon as they can. That's why, again, even if it is seconds later the info was getting to the server of the game and that Jake got hurt. This and yet again, when there is packet loss in the game it shows an icon, and as you can check, there is only two instances where that icon shows.
In short, the only one that is trying to gaslight people in believe that the intrinsic nature of latency in DbD is killer sided is you. I never said that what you described didn't ever happen, but that your claim that having lag never benefits survivor or punish killers is ridiculous (because it is).
1, I have official education in the subject. Stop with your condescending comments. It's true I didn't specialize in games specifically, but I even have knowledge in this domain (alas I admit it's dated).
2, Also you are wrong. She was clearly turning from left to right which means packets were arriving. If we are talking selectively letting some packets go thru (go left/right) and some others (end of sprint burst) which if this even could work means badly programmed actions (how could server allow sprint to move you so far? Server itself should deny this on it's end - but that's a bit different topic). This is clearly just and only cheating.
3, if you are such a guru and know everything about buffering then tell me what happens when buffer gets full... Maybe perhaps it "overflows" and some packets get dropped? That's exactly what I wrote in last message. Let's stop w being condescending now
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@ProHillbillyMain said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FN2KYN2AK99A/the-time-will-come.png
Can't wait for the Blight update!
YES. Nurse and spirit are absolutely dead. Both of them F-tier /s
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@WiseTraveler said:
I agree the new anti-camp mechanic is flawed and doesn't seem realistic.
- The anti-camp timer starts right away the second I put you on the hook. - How is that camping? I'm doing a regular action and the second I do it it's considered "camping"?
- If you are on a different floor the timer still increases. - What if there's an objective below them that I need to do stuff like kicking Gen, or breaking pallets below someone are common and I get punished for doing different objectives other than camping because I'm under the hook?
- Ranged killers or killers who have powers that give them a shorter hit cooldown after using an m2 will still be able to effectively tunnel.
Expect more people to consider tunneling or slugging as a different option. Because at the moment the other two options aren't punishing me the second I decide to do it. The new mechanic is too simple and doesn't account for realistic standards like being under or above someone to do other objectives. Even starting the timer the second I hook isn't camping yet the game says it is.
The game said you were (face) camping only when the bar gets full. Not a millisecond before. The meter just represents cumulative time spent next to hook. And even if you leave ASAP, survivor's time on hook is going down regardless. This is the same thing - progress bar has enough distance-seconds to accommodate for all legitimate basic actions you would ever need next to a hook (meaning both kicking gens and leaving the hook right after you hooked someone).
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
C33 & Alch Ring - Rework
Adrenaline - Nerf
Speed Addons - No longer stackable.
Hug-tech and other exploits removed.
Bug-fix for his power, he is very buggy killer.
This is current issues with him. We should not nerf his base-kit because nobody is playing him with normal add-ons. So we have not enough data to judge it.
I would make hug tech "official" part of his power, because otherwise he's much less interesting killer. Everything else precisely copies my thought process
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3550607#Comment_3550607
Dude, two Doritos ago you didn't even know what lag compensation was and that the game worked in a dedicated server infrastructure now. And now you are an expert in gaming networking?
My information was getting to the server, but late. That's why I could hit and even grab Jake from the gen. I simulated high latency by bottle necking the packets, so the game send them later than it would normally do. The upload was more affected than the download, so that's why I could see everybody playing fine but the others don't even saw me where I was.
There are only two instances where there was packet loss (marked by the two diamonds icon besides the high latency one), but the rest of the match I was literally lagging, ergo, high latency.
EDIT: Well, it seems that having an high ping is so not any advantage for survivors in any situation that now people are lag switching to literally speed hack somehow.
https://youtu.be/t_K5dFUQ3eQ?si=z8YuxGFEYClJj_3z&t=155
But keep trying to defend your asinine claim that latency is "killer sided".
That video is literally cheating and proves nothing. How does getting packet in wrong timing allow you to sprint for a long time - considering you can turn left and right? That one is pure and simple cheating only. Like there is lag switching where both killer and survivor can abuse interpolation logic with correction "to teleport", but this one wasn't that case (even though he had high ping). Interpolated position would not allow you to change directions
If you have 6kB upload and the data you "have to" transfer is anything above 6kB, that means some data are lost. That means data will NOT arrive late. It means (some) data will NOT ARRIVE.
Also stop gaslighting. If you ever tried it for a test to play as laggy killer and laggy survivor you would VERY CLEARLY see the difference. Because points A, B, and C, still stand.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551590#Comment_3551590
I’m not sure why you refuse to recognize that many killers would rather have aura reading, because aura reading happens for multiple seconds at a time, and it doesn’t alert the survivor that they are being tracked.
Yes, ultimate weapon is a strong perk, but it doesn’t “completely overshadow” the other tracking perks.
Because what good does that do? You find your target anyway. As I said - I do understand when you are talking huntress/nurse, because they can directly convert aura to hit. But for most other killers auras = you find survivor. UW = you find survivors more often (30s to find with 30s cooldown is VERY generous), more reliably (search in whole moving TR for freaking 30s is probably most benevolent condition so far) and without meta counter (no distortion). What's so hard to understand in that one?
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@OneAutmLeaf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551463#Comment_3551463
so 1 map....out of how many again? 1 map vs the other like 14, hardly seems like a arguement to maps not having enough pallets that op was talking about..
It was an example. This is absolutely not the only map. But sure. You made me look it up, so here goes:
I suppose shelter woods is obsolete as this table is most likely just before the rework. Also as you can see this list is pretty much incomplete - I would wonder about pallet count for new cowshed for example. Grim pantry and Rotten fields are also good candidates (the minimum will be somewhere around 10 - I am not saying it's definitely below, but I am sure minimum is 100% below 15 for both of them and possibly yes below 10)
One final note - you have been playing the game for 6 years and still didn't find these spawns? Especially on old shelter woods? How? That had less then 10 pallets very very very frequently (like 6 was extreme, but 7-9 was quite common).
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551461#Comment_3551461
Ultimate weapon’s pick rate is still 4th place for killer tracking perks.
So we clearly still have many killers that think it’s valuable to bring other tracking perks.
It's new perk that is behind paywall. Give it some time.
I can tell from my games, that UW gives me BY FAR greatest value as tracking perk and this even does not take into account blindness effect that's on top of it. Like sure - as I already mentioned there are exceptions for some killers. But generally speaking? this one is by huge margin best tracking perk
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551461#Comment_3551461
Blindness is just annoying part, it's random effect. That effect alone is just bad, no perk with blindness without other effects is considered even remotely good.
Blindness simply has to have other effect. It's useless otherwise.
What survivor even use more than 2 aura readings perks? Usually it's WoO, but with its usage %, it deserves to have a counter, so I wouldn't worry about that.
Only issue with UW is how you can move with it until you find all survivors, that makes it broken on few killers, but that can be nerfed without affecting most killers. You can make it UW disables after 5 seconds since first scream or something, then it's fine.
Locker bug is already fixed on PTB.
You would be surprised. I quite don't like fearmonger for unexpected reason - blindness actually disables the important part of my saboteur perk - auras. I carry toolbox for the speed and use saboteur to know where are the hooks without having to look for them beforehand (timing is everything in sabotages). Now comes UW that basically makes you up-to 50% (realistically 10-20% of game which is still a lot - especially if killer goes for lockers after down to prevent flash saves) of game blind.
Blindness does more then killer can realize (it's the same issue as zombies with Nemesis - you could swear as a killer they are always useless and sometimes they absolutely are, but the thing is you have no idea if/when they harass survivors out of gens and prolong the game considerably - you would still see them doing "nothing" from killer's point of view).
And then comes soloQ with empathy/bond/kindred...
Like don't get me wrong, most killer addons that make survivors blind are indeed useless, because their time is basically always too short or in wrong time (after hit = in chase = useless for everything but WoO). But that's not the case for UW.
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@OneAutmLeaf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551366#Comment_3551366
I really wouldnt, Ive played every map and have never in my 6 years of playing this game ever seen a map with less then 10 pallets.
Ok. Go to custom game, take zanshin tactics and go count pallets. If it spawns more then 10, then repeat it. By 3rd time you are "guaranteed" to see less then 10 pallets. And again, there are more maps like this
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551358#Comment_3551358
I would say nowhere to hide is on similar level to UW. It's really good perk.
Darkness revealed is not that good, so I definitely wouldn't balance around it. That's like nerfing exhaustion perks to Balance landing level. It just doesn't make sense.
Maybe buff some perks instead, for example Thwack doesn't need hooking requirement at all. That's way better perk to compare with UW.
You have issue with perk to have multiple effects? If I remember correctly you were defending MFT... just saying
I still think MfT is not that good - hence I never use it. It looks like my view on the thing is unique so let's leave it at that.
As for darkness revealed and balanced landing - I consider both perks very fine. Been using both of them and I consider both of them strong (actually when playing survivor BL is my go-to exhaustion should I decide to drop background player for less altruistic play). I think sprint/lither/nowhere to hide are really strong perks that are just fine the way they are. They don't need nerf, but are on a higher-end spectrum.
But UW from my point of view just does too much and not counting some specific cases (like nurse/huntress that actually benefit greatly from wallhacks instead of just finding survivors reliably, or killers that don't really have TR like ghostface/meyers/freddy). It's like why would I take any other tracking perk when UW exists? It's lethal pursuer for short time investment + perma location to all survivors that can't be blocked with meta-blocking perk for same perk slot investment. And that does not even factor in blindness status effect.
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@Chordyceps said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551391#Comment_3551391
Pop was nerfed. The change from X% to X% of current progress is a huge deal. The only time it'll do as much damage to a gen as it used to is if that gen is at
Pain Res traded consistent value for burst damage. If you're struggling to catch certain players it cripples the value you get out of it.
OG Overcharge didn't have a period of time where gen regression is slower than is typical, and going from max 200% regression speed to max 130% regression speed is a gigantic nerf.
OG overcharge didn't have any extra regression just for gen being kicked. In fact if you could hit difficult skill checks, OG overcharge did exactly and precisely nothing.
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If AHC means antifacecamp feature, then I disagree. I see no reason why hooking should not happen. If survivors swarm the hook, timer is so slow, that it basically does not work. If we are talking about hooking altogether, then this does not change anything at all. If we are talking about facecamper - that's intended mechanics which makes the game much more interactive. If we are talking about proxy campers - this mechanics does exactly nothing. I literally see no problem here.
As for the multiple floors problem - I said so in different post already. Nurse being on the different floor does not mean anything. For other killers it very much depends - say garden of joy camping bottom of stairs (which is super close to top-floor hook) most definitely is camping that is basically comparable to facecamp. Being on a different floor in Midwitch on M1 killer is like being on the other side of map.
But after thinking about it - say trapper has no reason to stay directly above/below hooked survivor for prolonged time if he's not chasing someone - so this shouldn't be any issue. But camping stairs (to basement or on GoJ but even in Thomson house) makes perfect sense for a killer - so given these interactions I would leave multi-level logic the way it is in PTB.
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@CatnipLove said:
I don't know how you nerf her out of the number one spot without touching her blinks. If the blinks are changed, players who have put large amounts of time into playing her get screwed over. But tweaking her outside of her blinks doesn't really impact her strength.
I still think the best thing BHVR could do is to make it harder for her to track a survivor she has just hit. Something like adding scratch blindness after fatigue, so she can't easily follow and down the survivor immediately. BHVR doesn't seem interested in changing her blinks, so people should ask for other changes.
There are ways. Make pallets matter much more (say - if she gets stunned, remove/validate away any hit that happened in same like 100ms. Make stun+fatigue work again. Allow stunning her even if she is in the middle of her fatigue). Make any stun deplete all her charges.
Boom. Now the killer suddenly minds pallets a little and there's much more counterplay to her without ever touching her blinks.
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@OneAutmLeaf said:
- Most maps got reworked and are now absurdly killer sided. Even less pallets then before (i counted 6-8 in custom games, more 50/50 then before, lack of playable loops, more deadzones. Strange choice.
Bro what game are you playing? every map has around 20 pallets..... like what? you clearly didnt count right bc no map has less then 10 pallets dude....
You would be surprised. Take thomson house - that one can easily have less then 10 pallets (depending on RNG). And that's just 1st example that came to my mind. Also remaked farm maps have some pallets (filler loop) that just increases number of pallets and that's it - because the loop is so unsafe, that killer will always get a hit on it (no matter what killer)
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Current proposed change helps for sabotages and random map mobility (which is usually undesired effect). It does nothing for flashlight, flashbang and pallet saves. OP's version is like small nerf to sabotages (and map mobility), but very considerable buff to all the other 3 use cases. As sabotages are fringe thing that devs basically actively discourage with all the map changes and hook density, it would be very clearly net positive for perk usage.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
I don't think it should move with killer, or reduce duration after first scream.
Fact that you keep it makes kinda broken on few killers. Probably most on Oni.
But it's first good killer perk in a long time and it's info perk, so I wouldn't be hard on it.
So what it counters some survivor perks? Survivors have perks to counter killer perks/powers. That's how it's suppose to be...
I will much rather get new slowdown perk, or make finally some good perk to apply exhaustion on survivors...
There's nothing wrong with good perk that counters the other side. There however is a problem if such a perk is good even without the counter. Take distortion. All it does is counter killer's aura perks/addons and that's it. If killer does not have any aura perk, then the perk is absolutely useless. Similarly calm spirit - if killer does not have any ability to make you scream, you just wasted perk slot (for malus that makes no sense on the perk BTW). If killer takes shattered hope (sure enough, this one was weak even in boon era is it wasn't true counter, but that's for a different debate) and no survivor takes any boon, then that's a wasted perk slot.
And now if killer take UW and all 4 survivors have no aura reading perks of any kind, then killer still gets probably THE best tracking perk in the game. Do you see the problem here?
To be constructive... It would make sense to be strong counter perk (even keeping all the effects it currently has if survivor-to-enter-killer's-TR have ANY aura reading perk), or make it reasonable tracking perk (remove blindness effect altogether and nerf it so that other strong aura perks make sense - say darkness revealed or nowhere to hide to not be 100% outshined by UW)