Gandor
Gandor
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@Archol123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3246159#Comment_3246159
Don't you need to heal a person beforehand? At least that has a condition, the other stuff does not... So at the least the condition makes it so you won't always get value out of it...
And what condition does alchemist ring have? Just a reminder - syringe is higher rarity then alch ring.
On the other hand I agree it should be flat 16s heal
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@Marius1234456918 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3245944#Comment_3245944
So hideing is a cheap tactic aswell and pressing E in front of an window or pallet arent the hardest things to do. So we need the nerf those things or make them harder. because those are cheap tactics.
Hiding is not as easy. I mean not effective hiding - if you go from locker to locker far away from gens, you are not playing game. About E. Well this is hard one. You have 0.5s window of invulnerability that can't be used mid vault or mid any other action. Considering lag hits this is hard. And if you say "i mentioned at pallet), then all killers are also easy. All you need to do is start 0.1m from survivor and press m1. Oh but you need skill to get there? Yes. Precisely 🙂
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@Marius1234456918 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3245847#Comment_3245847
And who decides whats a cheap tactic, you? There are many tactics that could called unfair or cheap.
Cheap tactics is everything that provides much more value then effort. Staying on a single spot being AFK and still getting kills out of it is precisely it.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3243958#Comment_3243958
your post is inconsistent. you are saying that you can abuse(utilize) reaction healing and med-kit to trigger the perk but in other posts, you state that a good usage of the perk is using it for sabotage.
Using med-kits to endless tank hits at hook is a waste of survivor time which is why protection hits is a bad trigger condition. Your wasting time to activate a perk when doing generator is better option. Your also wasting your med-kit for this action. Purple stypic can be used to activate this perk but it is not worth it because purple stypic is better used as defensive safe-guard towards playing injured/chase extension.
As for sabotage, You need dead hard and Alex toolbox+Hacksaw to perform sabotage. MoM is wasted perk for sabotage. The perk design is to gain second chances over course of a match but designing a perk that grants consistent second chances means that killer has to hit 4 extra times to down someone. that's way too strong when multiplied 4 times at 100% consistency. they need find a better balance between the perk activates once per match or once every two matches on a single survivor. Currently, the perk is straight bad and never worth considering in any survivor build.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244849#Comment_3244849
the teammate is not safe but successfully performing a sabotage does provide a 4th hook-state and delay the tunneling death. It is like decisive strike for your teammate.Sometimes that is all you need to finish last generator. I wouldn't call sabotage useless especially with toolbox, its low commitment move for somewhat high reward. The killer slugging offers no reward for the killer in the current iteration of the game, so just a free second chance. The biggest time that sabotage wastes is not sabotage itself but rather healing to tank a hit to sabotage. This is why you often only sabotage on 2nd hook-state survivors where there is only 1-2 generators left because one survivor spending time to sabotage killer objective at this point in the game is somewhat worth it since 2 survivor can easily finish the last two generators if your team is efficient. Sabotage is more of heighten version of survivor body-blocking. soloq is too disorganized to use mechanic towards a positive outcome. not enough information to use the mechanic.
Jake's saboteur perk is pretty garbage but if the perk granted 75% sabotage speed and did not go on cooldown for cancelling it, it might be decent perk option assuming soloq had more information to use it.
I agree with almost everything you wrote. The point about wasted time for that sabotage play was directly linked to how much time you need to waste in order to provide the play. It was meaned in this context. Otherwise fully agreed.
One additional note tho - I do play saboteur also in soloQ. The perk is bad, but not garbage. You just have to be lucky (scourge hooks or map with higher hook spread) and you have to guess which hook the killer will use. I have made quite a few successful sabo plays even in soloQ. But again - you have to get a bit lucky (and probably also tank 1 hit)
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3245876#Comment_3245876
starstruck activates when the killer pick up a survivor. this perk activates when you injure a survivor, only obsession though. Agitation is better perk when it comes to activating starstruck. m1 killer have too little duration to use starstruck while nurse does not really get stunned by pallets(for nemesis to switch obsession to trigger this perk), so the perk is synergy you are describing is not worth it.
really? Hit obsession, down her within 30s and pick her up. No matter where they are, everyone is exposed. The next person you meet within 30s can be downed in 1 hit. This does not sound so bad to me. Sure enough, without obsession condition it would be even better
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@Devil_hit11 said:
useless perk. as solo. i will instantly spot this perk as soon as it is active. If its useless vs solo, its likely more useless for SWF. I have two opinions of this perk. The first opinion is that if this perk was intended to be a stealth perk, then this perk is far complicated to be a stealth. The fake terror radius does not fool me as survivor and the obsession triggering condition adds a perk tax to use a obsession switching perk to improve consistently in triggering the perk effect.
My suggested buffs would be:
-Remove Fake terror radius 32 meter, Just make it grant undetectable for 30 seconds after injuring a survivor by any means.
-Remove obsession mechanic.
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The other way to look at this perk is that its a perk meant to confuse the survivor using the heartbeat instead of stealth. In that case, the perk should work like doctor's calm-add-on in T3 where applying an injury grants all survivors on the map a 32 meter terror radius. The calm add-on makes all survivors hear the heartbeat as if the killer was right on top of them. The perk would have synergy with terror radius perks as a single hit would trigger all terror radius perks. The main issue is that only coulrophobia has a decent effect while unnerving presence and overwhelming presence are really bad perk effects. I do not think this version of dark devotion would get used but the perk could potentially become better in the future if more powerful terror-radius perks are added to the game. At very least, dark devotion would be more confusing to play against then current iteration.
The perk would read as follows:
Whenever the Obsession loses a health-state by any means and thus enters the injured state, Dark devotion activates:
-You become undetectable for 20/25/30 second.
-All survivors gain your terror radius in 32 meter radius.
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Currently, the only killer that I have tried using this perk and have had some success with it is Legion with Susie's tape for chaining feral frenzy hits. Beyond this meme build, it is not very good perk.
Fake terror radius will always momentarily confuse. There is no reason to remove it. More so in lower MMR ranges. Also there are more TR based perks. The most prominent one is starstruck. Meaning if you are able to down and pick up within 30s, then your second version could make everyone exposed...
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@Marius1234456918 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3245819#Comment_3245819
So you allways want to be able to get a 4 man escape? And even if the killer has Set up to get 1 - 2 kills. Which is btw a draw. You still want to be able to allways win... seems like you should just get that there are 2 sides and you r not the only one who wants to have fun. You just like these nurse players who allways try to get 4k and never try something else...
Absolutely not! I always want to have fair match. I want 50% kill rate. No more, no less. But at the same time I want to have all cheap tactics gone - this means that I love key/hatch update that no longer allows 3 people escaping before all generators are completed just because someone brought/found key. But I also don't want for bubba to win the game just because he was able to get 1 good chase at the beginning (by e.g. finding someone in dead zone one time) and there is no counter for it.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3245824#Comment_3245824
The funny thing is, there are good ways of communication that are easy across platforms. Chat Wheels have existed for a really long time and make chatting accessible to Consoles easily.
Also Console still has access to Keyboard and Mouse for chat features, back when I was on Console (I swapped from Console to PC not that long ago), I use to use KBM to type in codes BHVR released.
Yes and I really want this one in game. I don't really care about lobby for this one, but having this in game and being able to ping "I am being camped", or "Survivor [NAME] come rescue me" (because you are the closest one and I am not being camped) would go very long way to equalize solo vs SWF. I think even basekit kindred that many people suggest would be redundant
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@gilgamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3245728#Comment_3245728
You know there are Mapes survivors don't wanna go to either right? Also I wouldn't mind survivors seeing the killer if I didn't know that people would just never load into a map against certain killers. I wouldn't even completely blame them but bhvr knows this and would never in a million years go through with it.
Oh I know about it. For example I don't care what killer it's going to be. I NEVER want to find myself on midwitch. Or shelter woods for that matter (but this one is tricky, because groaning and suffo are OK maps). What is your point though? I am not going to quit the game just because I see midwitch offering
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3245807#Comment_3245807
"You state it has nothing to do with it. I 100% disagree. Killers can better pick perks because they see used items AND SURVIVORS CAN'T DO THE SAME. On the other hand survivor have numbers so it's more likely they will get better map. Both things touch (a)symmetry of how lobby works. You just want to change it exclusively for one side and I don't like it."
Survivors can still anticipate certain perks and addons being used and there are ways to completely hide items to Killers. You can last second swap, which people who have flashlights often due since the Killer in most instances might not be able to predict a last second swap.
If everyone brings items, Survivors can anticipate a potential Franklin's Demise and bring in perks to get more use out of their items or restore charges to their items. Or if the Killer sees 4 Flashlights, the Killer might be more inclined to bring Lightborn, so some people swap to other items as to prevent having 4 of the same item.
There are some stuff you can do, just both sides need to think about it.
Also I think it comes down to just coordination being the difference, that coordination is not consistent but I mentioned in other posts that I think Survivor as a whole needs to have more coordination and communication options.
"As for sacrificial ward argument - I already said I agree that the item could use some buff"
Im fine with the Sacrificial Ward being the way it is because it rewards Survivors coordination in Map Offerings to deal with, it creates a situations where Survivors have to think about what is bring brought in, it can be tricky to deal with a Sacrificial Ward because some platforms do not have access to communications but I would like those barriers to be reduced, people have been waiting for chat options on Console platforms.
"And to your feature argument I can state that killers should not see it, because killer has more powers then survivors and has advantage over any single survivor or any build. Making it moot point same way as your "but survivors have numbers". Both are true. But in current state killers have the upper hand anyway, which is underlined by official stats (again 39% escape rate for survivors). Your argument would hold more ground in older versions of DBD where kill rate was lower."
I have made forum posts about making healthier changes to the game, which include better Quality of Life introductions for SoloQ, as well as some other things. Survivor is in a pretty rough state atm and a lot of people are really demotivated to play Survivor, so I made this post kind of following the stuff I said previously, would recommend checking it out if you havent. Some of the stuff I mentioned here even tie back to it.
if there was practical way to communicate this, then I would agree. But I don't see a way how to make effective communication between console and PC players. I presume this is also main reason why people tend to ignore lobby chat even if there are 4 PC survivors. If the (real life, not just theoretical possibility) coordination for last second swaps and map selection was possible, then sure enough I would agree with you. As it stands right now, I already gave you a feedback for what I think about this change.
So probably the only thing I can say is, let's agree to disagree on this proposal
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@Marius1234456918 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/352358/just-completely-rework-bubba-at-this-point
Bubba just isnt op all you have to do is rush gens if he face camps then you allways have a 3 man escape especially with that one new perk which can stop the hook timer...
If survivors don't have reassurance and use correct bubba build, it's more like 1 or 2 out.
And it's not just me. Check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGLLWqKysfk -
@Katzengott said:
Would be a good QoL change, esp. for solos.
The truth with Reassurance is, even when used right, most solos will farm the hooked surv 10 secs. later anyway, instead of spending the extra 30 secs. on gens. I'd say the real strenght of Reassurance is to prevent the hooked surv going into the next hook state. Works with a good team (even better with communication / SWFs), but better don't count on it solo.
True enough. But considering how reassurance can be useless because soloQ can be clueless and not take advantage of correct usage of the perk... Kinship is absolutely not doing anything. It has same problems as reassurance + some more. I think OP's suggestion would make sense and bring both of these perk on same-ish footing (reassurence having more targets and overall time to use on vs kinship being more selfish version that is easier to actually activate - with exception to these things making them exactly the same = provide clear information the perk is in play and allow it to be activated on both hook states).
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3245794#Comment_3245794
I am not a hypocrite, you can continue to think that I am and ignore what I said if it makes you feel better, but I am not. Just because YOU CANNOT READ WHAT I AM SAYING AND UNDERSTAND IT does not mean I am a hypocrite.
With what I said, symmetry still does not exist because the Sacrificial Ward's entire existence makes it asymmetrical and still in the favor of survivors which I have stated that I am fine with, again, some aspects can be the same (50/50 for map offerings), some aspects are not the same (survivors can override Sacrificial Wards), stop throwing words into my mouth.
Also, might I add, you started this by stating the seeing 4 Survivor's items comes with the upside of being able to bring in 4 offerings to the Killer's 1 offering, when I never at all used that comparison for anything I have said. Seeing 4 Survivor's items is a feature because the 1 Killer is outnumbered and needs to plan for the match ahead. The 4 Survivors can coordinate items to bring as well in the pre-game chat (I stated in other posts that Console players need pre-game/post-game chats to make better use of this coordination). That entire aspect of the game is designed around the number of individuals for both sides, Map Offerings have nothing to do with it.
You state it has nothing to do with it. I 100% disagree. Killers can better pick perks because they see used items AND SURVIVORS CAN'T DO THE SAME. On the other hand survivor have numbers so it's more likely they will get better map. Both things touch (a)symmetry of how lobby works. You just want to change it exclusively for one side and I don't like it.
As for sacrificial ward argument - I already said I agree that the offering could use some buff. And sure enough the buff can be in making sure all selected maps are not played (so 4 offerings don't override it + you can't get the map anyway by pure random chance). But that's different topic (but if you were to propose it, I would agree with you).
And to your feature argument I can state that killers should not see it, because killer has more powers then survivors and has advantage over any single survivor or any build. Making it moot point same way as your "but survivors have numbers". Both are true. But in current state killers have the upper hand anyway, which is underlined by official stats (again 39% escape rate for survivors). Your argument would hold more ground in older versions of DBD where kill rate was lower.
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@RobustLaser said:
already mentioned plenty but coming in assuming bad faith on the part of detractors and actively insulting them is bad form BUT
I think a fake-out vault would make for a decent exhaustion(?) perk. Already have a fakeout locker perk with Deception after all.
it's too weak effect to be an exhaustion. Such a fake would do nothing if killer sees thru it and at most give you single miss cooldown time. Now compare this to any other exhaustion. Sprint burst, lithe and balanced landing 3s 150% speed. DH hit CD + after hit sprint burst. Smash hit 4s 150% speed. Head on - possibility to save another survivor in best case, ability to help tunneled survivor, but overall same-ish length of cooldown time.
Overall this would be by far least rewarding exhaustion perk in the game. But if it only had internal cooldown (same as quick and quiet), then it could be a perk.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3245783#Comment_3245783
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/H8LK9YEMSUQ2/image-2022-10-28-035354192.png
Again not hypocrisy. I even posted the word above so you can see what
Also I said some aspects of the game can be the same, some must be different, I never specified AT ALL that everything survivors had must be different and everything killers have must be the same or equal. That would be an entirely different sentence.
Because at that point you are putting words in my mouth, you (yet again) pretend to have some higher morality but blatantly ignore the evidence that is going against you, you ignore what I say and pretending that I am saying things when I am not. Some can be the same for both sides, some can be different from both sides. But with the systems I mentioned, you still choose to ignore how it still favors survivors, it just puts a better opportunity for killers to do more.
Please, for the love of God, read what the f- I put down and stop throwing words into my own mouth. And actually pay attention to what I am saying because you not only completely missed the point I made up regarding perks (ON BOTH SIDES MIGHT I ADD) being made useless by not being able to see the survivors items, since killers are less inclined to bring item countering perks (and survivors bringing perks to counter those countering perks) and more inclined to bring more slowdown instead.
Im done, Im done arguing with you, you waste my time and ignore everything I put, you clearly dont want to listen and make sh- up (which was evident from the start when you brought back up the post that you got called out for because it was a horrible post that everyone disagreed with). I am done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy
Hypocrisy is the practice of engaging in the same behavior or activity for which one criticizes another or the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform. In moral psychology, it is the failure to follow one's own expressed moral rules and principles.[1] According to British political philosopher David Runciman, "Other kinds of hypocritical deception include claims to knowledge that one lacks, claims to a consistency that one cannot sustain, claims to a loyalty that one does not possess, claims to an identity that one does not hold".[
I highlighted the part that I am talking about. You are inconsistent in symmetry for killer vs asymetry against survivors. So again. You are hypocrite.
To the perks - sure their effectiveness would be reduced. Not nullfied. Same as map offering effectiveness for survivors would be reduced by your statement. And yet not nullified. One other thing - I see it the opposite way. I show you why you are just promoting one side and why you are being unfair and you just brush it off as that's OK and fair. Disregarding my argument that you just stick to one principle when it suits you and swap to the other one when it no longer suits you. Meaning you are inconsistent. Just to buff killers even more
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It is hypocrisy. By your words it's OK if killers have the game symmetrical when picking map, but once we talk about seeing what the other side is bringing to the trial it's all about asymmetric game. You pick one and stick with it. You accept asymmetry in map selection or you ask for symmetry in visibility. Otherwise you are hypocrite.
Also AFAIK franklin's work on ANY item (it's just more powerful against flashlights and sabo toolboxes). Overwhelming also work on ANY item. Lightborn is bit more problematic, but it can provide you with value even if you don't see any flashlight in lobby (because a, last second swap b, flashbangs c, residual manifest d, just lucky pick of flashlight from chest). So they are not literally useless (maybe and I stress the word maybe lightborn CAN be potentially useless more often). On the other hand survivors would also like to know if it's original pain pinhead or any legion - to remove their DH from build, if it's plague to remove their medkits. They have to endure asymetric nature because that's fair but killer should have total symmetry because that's fair? No no no. It's one way or the other for both cases
Also not knowing precise stuff is still better than not knowing anything.
If we talk about overriding sacrificial ward - that requires 4 maps of same kind. You see that how often? I have never seen that. But sure - buff sacrificial ward if that's such a problem for you. The offering should see some love regardless as it can do exactly nothing quite often (you don't play all games with survivor bringing map).
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Killer has option to send survivors to any map he wants same as survivors. Survivor just have (4x) better chance. To compensate killer sees what survivors bring and survivors do not even see who they are facing. You want to nerf survivors without any compensation. That is hypocrisy.
And I also play both sides (it's just that I play survivor more). I don't even use the advantage to see what items survivor bring - but I also don't bring any map to my solo games.
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I have 9 out of 10 facecamping bubbas. Making it (by slow margin from nurse) my most hated killer in whole game. And yet I love to play (even getting outright destroyed) by that 1 out of 10 exception bubbas that chase
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3245728#Comment_3245728
Im going to kind of disagree with that, DbD is an asymmetrical game, and while there are some areas where both sides should be equal, having both sides revealed or not revealed would negatively impact the game and would make a lot of perks on both sides useless. The game is designed to have the killer see survivors but not have the survivors see the killer. Map Offerings are an aspect of the game that can be changed, and has been changed many times in the past.
Ah so equalize one side and keep it asymmetrical for the other. Hypocrisy. Got it
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Sure. Let's make it fair. Agreed. Also hide survivors for killer so he does not know what item he is carrying. (after all survivors don't see killer and especially don't know which addons he is using). Why should one side have something the other side does not have? :)
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Why does the perk even have obsession condition? What would happen if it got removed? I pressume it would gain some (more targets) and loose some (easier to identify DD is in play, bit easier killer tracking after hitting another survivor), but overall this should be nice buff to the perk.
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@roundpitt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3245573#Comment_3245573
Healing causes you to gain stacks. Not sure how you will hide against a killer that’s is 100% invisible until the first time they hit you! Lol
So only hold W (you can't loop what you can't see) or rush gens. Sounds even more boring.
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So the playstyle against this killer is rush gens and hide and hold W. Maybe heal a lot so that you can be hurt and healed again. Does not sound like fun. Sounds more like stuff AI (on both sides) could do
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@Kosturko92 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244784#Comment_3244784
You don't like the fact that healing is so op right now and you wish not to change it, that's not a valid reason, if killer injury a survivor he should stay injured for sometime and not heal up in 5 seconds with medkits and boons. Some survivors even heal up mid chase so yeah, that's how broken it is right now
Outside syringe (that will destroy your medkit) you can heal mid chase only with very specific green medkit once. And it still requires "bad killer" (conditions where killer does nothing with survivor for several seconds). If you don't want to limit yourself to single heal per match, it will always take much longer then 5s. In fact it will be multiples of it. With boons it can take literal minutes for single heal (and sure enough it can take also ~6s under ideal conditions when 2 other survivors heals you already in boon area - but those 2 will also have travel time which means it's not really that short).
Meaning boons are a gamble. It can go your way, but it can screw you over very hard. I have seen many games which were lost only because someone had boon and tried to get value out of it. I mean - the game would have been won if that person took 3 perks instead. But this is not so visible to killer players. Same way as nemesis players can't see how much time zombies save them from time to time on generators (by harassing survivors. And sure - other times zombies are completly wothless). There is no indication something is happening - the only thing is, that gens are not popping for no reason. Same stuff for boons as for zombies.
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@AJStyIez said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/352346/mettle-of-man-discussion
I agree with your assessment and I said the perk would be dead months ago when it was first changed. I had multiple people laughing at me for saying the perk was a joke and changed for worse! They told me I didn't know what I was talking about because MoM was clearly buffed and will be better than reworked Dead Hard, funny how things play out. It could definitely use a re-re-re-rework but honestly I still don't think most people will use it. There's still way better perks to take if you're in SoloQ and even still as a SWF it hinders efficiency. I don't really know what changes can be made for this to get better
These were my exact words, I don't feel anything has changed since then:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/BGDPBCATI9DL/mettleofmeme.png
So exactly the same thing I was saying.
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@VaporLion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3245086#Comment_3245086
i dont know about you but im in red rank 1 and i see it like once every 5 games or so.
I saw that build. I think once. I know that wire tap has it's value. But I don't see people combining it with blast mine. Because it's redundant
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@Xord said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3245047#Comment_3245047
I have to repeat myself but the problem isn't healing speed. If you keep a survivor off gens for 10 seconds more or 10 seconds less is irrelevant. The whole point is that as long as CoH is standing, as a killer, you have 2 options: Commit into a chase because injuring is litterally useless, or search for the boon and lose gens in the process anyway. You can't just injure survivors because it gives no value.
So SC is OP because it unlocks self healing without any condition infinite amount of times right? Well. I don't remember seing anyone use just SC after 6.1 - baring that one challenge that requires you to ONLY bring SC and nothing else (sure enough I see it still being used with conjunction to bottany - a perk that only increases speed of healing and nothing else). Speed is all that matters
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@VaporLion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244847#Comment_3244847
and btw blast mine isnt throwing. in combination with wire trap its decent because it makes it so the killer gets stunned and has to kick the gen twice to remove wiretrap while giving your team information about where the killer is.
imagine everyone working on gens would run that perk combination in solo q, it would provide you with constant information and it does get rid of quite a bit of time from the killer if he decides to kick gens. and yea i dont run it myself but im just saying its actually not that bad.
And who in you "high MMR" runs it? I presume nobody. And there's a good reason for it
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@Xord said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3245015#Comment_3245015
You litterally just need to open the wiki to get the numbers, I'm not exactly sure what you're asking exactly there.
How much time is irrelevant since it allows to self heal.
That's what you guys don't get. I'd be fore increasing the healing speed back to 100%. It was fine at 100. Allowing self heal is absolutely not fine. That's the problematic part with the perk. It should allow fast heals, not self heals.
Wiki will tell you theoretical numbers. If those were a thing than boons are OK no matter what. 14s+heal is always worse then 1s even if we take into account 4 survs against 1 killer. Give me your real time usage of how quickly you can heal when you get outside of chase and decide to heal. Meaning killer for any reason left you mid chase anywhere on the map (maybe he decided to go for someone else) or maybe you just got unhooked but your teammate refused to heal you. How long does it take for you to heal with boon vs with other methods? And how much worse would this become if CoH would be limited usage by SH being basekit (so you get to same realm of usage as medkits - even though medkits are better, because nobody will cleanse you your medkit - which is more risky than being surprised by franklins)
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@Xord said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244991#Comment_3244991
I mean, I think I have enough hours to say I compared it quite a lot already.
However, there's a huge difference between CoH and other boons, other boons are only useful if the killer is inside the radius.
Ok. So what's your average time for heal after booning? My goes upwards of a minute (it's quicker when it's standing but slower if I have to look for a totem). Some games I can't boon at all because there are no totems. SC takes 50s (42 for heal and 8s on average to get to position to heal). What are your numbers?
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I think it was nice addition to the game (even if I didn't use it).
The thing that made it awkward was need to use flashlight. That made no sense. Vaulting and flashlight make 0 things in common. What would actually make more sense would be maybe an addon on key? Like rubber neckband. Keys are useless the way they are now so having something useful for a change would make sense. And you would be able to use it only if you used key for whole duration of vaulting (meaning if you initiate it and have enough key energy left, then it will be applied and take out whole vaulting-duration worth of key energy).
also @Crowman why do you think the game is better without it? I mean outside of hacky usage it required to this point. Why would it be bad for a game if this became feature attached to some more meaningful interaction?
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@Xord said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244983#Comment_3244983
And multiply it by 4, because that's the thing with boons, they are perks that work on everyone.
But they pose much higher risk for everyone involved. Even if boon is already standing (that's a big if).
Please just try a few games with it. Measure your times. That we can understand each other
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@Xord said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244910#Comment_3244910
With SH basekit CoH would still be a good perk.
However, yes, other boons would become trash, that's why I'm only for this change if it comes with an overall boon buff.
I would advise you to measure your time from when you get injured until you get healed with CoH. Count games where there are no totems for any reason. And compare it to SC time or even better - medkits (because boons would also become limited use)
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@Xord said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244718#Comment_3244718
Boons are still extremely problematic because of CoH, it takes forever to snuff but mere seconds to boon. (because of how different time management is for a killer and survivors, yes, snuffing takes a second, but getting to the totem effectively makes you abandon a hook stage).
HOWEVER, Shattered hope basekit should come with a boon entire rework. Because outside of CoH, most other boons are either bad, or just barely good.
SH basekit means boons death. CoH would become extremely slow SC with limited usage and other boons would maybe make some positive (yet very limited) difference every 20 games, but quite some negative difference every time it would be used.
There would be 0 reason to even bring CoH ever
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This is SPECIFICALLY true for high MMR. Where efficiency is the king. You will always go for chase (anti-tunnel) builds or genrush builds. Sabo plays have 0 space in real high MMR plays. And the reason being, surprise surprise - that it's SLOW/INEFFICIENT. It wastes too much time. Giving killer too many opportunities to down everyone.
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@VaporLion said:
where is you argument besides using words like throwing , ineffective and suboptimal plays ?
dont talk to me if you dont understand that its a 4v1 game. in high elo survivors get tunneled out of the game almost every match and having a tool that can potentially prevent that is quite good. I would however still mainly see this being used in swfs that use reactive healing.
Also you have to think about how often you could actually activate this protection hit. You just need a survivor in front of you and it works. F.e. when running to the gate you could often easily escape. And people often run adrenaline just for that single reason of getting out. And that perk could be used way more versitile.
You talk about high MMR and you ask about my argument about suboptimal and throwing? Hello. You can't talk about high MMR and require inefficient play. These things don't go together. What you propose is outright useless stupid in high MMR. It's same as advocating that territorial imperative would be OK if it gave aura instead of just notification and arguing when and where this would be enough. So again WHEN will be sabo toolbox MoM and some supporting perk EVER going even close to taking DS, DH, OTR and Adrenaline with strong medkit? I will tell you when - NEVER. It's bad meme combo that could potentially get some playrate OUTSIDE high MMR play IF it was easy to use. So we are back at the stuff I already said. Your argument makes 0 sense in buffing MoM usage. What @mizark3 and @sizzlingmario4 said would. But only outside high MMR. It's far from meta and it's suboptimal and I gave you multiple scenarios WHY that is the case
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@VaporLion said:
its not throwing at all if you save your 2nd stage teammate from getting downed and removed from the game.
Ok. Say that I go for this specific case. Say that my teammate wiggles free. Does that mean that my tunneled teammate is safe? Oh no it doesn't. Because killer will be stunned for something like 3s. But survivor is also stunned for 1s. Net gain for the survivor is 2s (this assumes killer will not realize what's happening and does not let survivor wiggle into stagger effect - which happens rarely, but good killers do this should opportunity show itself). What I usually see is survivor going down within 10s of wiggling free. I mean - this is good for a team to do gens, but it will NOT REALLY help tunneled survivor. And considering all the time investment. It's still throwing the game. And this assumes that survivor will indeed wiggle free which is still a HUGE assumption.
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@VaporLion said:
also your math doesnt check out at all because any waysted time of the killer is free gen time for the other 2 survivors in the trail.
My math checks out perfectly. Because it's all about how much time I can potentially save compared to how much time I can invest into my primary objective. If the net result is almost always in favor in doing gens instead (and in the case it isn't - the game is won anyway), then doing that ineffective thing is always bad. It's deliberately going for ineffective play. I mean - you don't need to go for optimal play all the time. I sure don't bring BNP's to my games (with very few exceptions). But doing things that are (almost) always by huge margin subobtimal IS THROWING. You will not see usage of a perk that requires you to throw the game if it does not include something that can be considered funny (so yes - people bring blast mine even if it's throwing the game. But MoM and taking free hit for loong heals is 100% not that funny as blast mine)
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@VaporLion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244836#Comment_3244836
thats just wrong. if you bodyblock the killer until he hits you, you will get distance because you get an automated speedboost and the killer slows down after hit. and you can currently sabotage right in front of the hook where you get hit, then sabo with alex toolbox and speed addons and dead hard right after. so this would even work without an alex toolbox, because you get distance from the hit.
Yes. I said so already. IF you bring alexis toolbox WITH both speed addons (maybe even green one alone can be enough sometimes), this will work and substitute your DH. I already said this is quite an investment, because you loose so much time to activate it, need to have specific item with addon(s) to use the perk AND be close enough to killer to use it optimally (meaning you probably also need breakout to make it in time). Sure you can run that thing. But don't expect to win that game. Because you are throwing to get value out of it
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@VaporLion said:
also the killer doesnt catch up to the other survivor that fast so you could easily tank twice.
Tanking hits helps you only if a, you already sabotaged hook (and you are able to get close to killer - which is screw-up on killer's side) b, killer got greedy for far-away scourge hook c, there is your whole team to take hits (so you exchange down for like 3-6 hits making it net positive for killer every time but when there are 2 hook states in a game and they are on carried person - but you still risk scenario where 4 survivors would be downed). This is again too specific scenario to be worth perk slot.
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@VaporLion said:
na if you bodyblock the killer with MoM and then go to the hook and sabotage it works.
It does not from 6.1 You don't get enough time to sabo. It worked before 6.1 but then killer's after hit CD got lowered by 0.3s. You would need purple toolbox with speed addons to combat this. Otherwise this does not work. Meaning perk that is designed for sabotages (saboteur) is already not enough. I play it. I tried it multiple times. You don't have enough time for it. Even if you are able to use all the sprint duration it does not work
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@VaporLion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244779#Comment_3244779
first of all, you can go the the hook before the killer gets there an start sabotaging. also, its not just about sabotaging hooks but tanking so many hits that the killer cant get to a hook in time. also you would have to use skill to use mettle of man and dont just get it anytime you want. its stupid to just get an extra chance. you could for example body block and tank 2 hits while another survivor is getting tunneled.
If you go to the hook before killer, then you don't need MoM for anything. If you take MoM for tanking, than you don't know how the game works - you loose collision after hit, so if you are healthy and take a hit and try to bodyblock for your MoM, you are just wasting your time. Killer is free to ignore you and still hook that survivor ignoring survivor's body. If you add or remove any condition to MoM - it does not matter. You will NOT use it for your intended purposes, which means it's totally beside point whether the perk is active or not. What you basically create is a perk that can't be used for it's purpose. OR it can be used if you include additional perks making it quite an investment that will probably yield you nothing - your buff of the perk makes 0 sense and nobody will use it anyway, because it provides no benefit.
For the tunneling part - sure enough this would help. But you know what would help even more? You not wasting 1 perk slot and hell of a lot of healing time on trying to get that perk to activate and instead insert this time into generators. Paradoxically this will give much better chance for tunneled person to survive then your suggestion. Because taking 3 hits will buy him ~8s of free running distance, but he will need to wait for ~120 more seconds of chase time for it to break even on your investment (your 3 heals + running at killer) - sure enough some people are capable of it. But those people would win the game anyway.
Meaning your buff would still make the perk totally worthless
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Agreed. The perk is already good. Strictly by usage rate it should be a candidate for a quite substantial nerf. But I still think the perk is good the way it is and it needs no changes
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The only unfair thing about this one is if 2 survivors are able to both hop into lockers next to each other - meaning pulling one locks you for long enough that the other one is able to get out of locker and flash save the other. By introducing short cooldown to item usage after getting out of locker this would be fixed.
OP's suggestion is IMO non-issue. If killer decides to tunnel single survivor, we should have MORE options how to help chased survivor instead of having LESS options. Tunneling should be discouraged. And sure enough - trying to help tunneled survivor should create risk for helper. But it shouldn't be easy to just ignore rescuers (same way as it's now - I can take an injure and also go down for other survivor only to be outright ignored by killer who just wants to delete 1 survivor from the game. That is very unfun interaction and I find it unfair that there is almost nothing to combat this).
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@illNicola said:
1) Genrush and tunneling:
Genrush make too hard to kill in high ranks, because survivor's objective is way faster than killer's objective. So I would remove all perks that buff gen speed, and put gen 80 seconds because 90s is too much. If you fix Genrush, tunneling isn't necessary no? So I will rework perks that buff gens to counter tunneling, and put barbecue and chili basekit so a killer can hook someone and go for another instead of camping the hooked guy. Also, add a ruin basekit of like 25% passive regression, to reward the killer for going to defend the gens instead of camping to guarantee a kill.
2) Hitboxes:
So, a lot of times hit validation work really bad, also because hit validation never fixed WiFi hit (I've been hit a lot of times like 10 meters distant from the killer). In my opinion, the "hit validation" doesn't exist, Devs only halved hitboxes of killer weapons, also because as I said in a previous post, I see a lot of times my weapons pass through survivor's body.
3) Add the replay system and improve servers to prevent cheaters (I play from ps, so cheaters aren't a problem for me. The problem is that I have to play without cross play to prevent cheaters)
I really hope devs will consider fixing all this problem, because dbd is one of my favorite games, where I spent lot of hours and money and I hate to see the game in this unhealthy state.
People started to tunnel most in patch 6.1. This was the patch where killers were having 4K every single game for first few days. The amount of camping and tunneling was way higher then in 6.0 as opposed to way lower (because you did not need to do that). Thankfully 6.2 came with 10s basekit BT and with reassurence which at least limited camp/tunnel viability so camping and tunneling is lower then in 6.1 (but I still feel it's higher then in 6.0 where you had less time for it because gens too 80s).
Meaning - killers will tunnel as long as it's the best thing they can do. If you only change generator speed to 120s, you will see virtually all killers camp - because it will just autowin their game without any effort. On the other hand if the only change was to make hook stages take 90s instead of 60s, there will be virtually (not literally, because some people do it to spite others instead of trying to win) no camping - because this will be so punishing tactics, that very few people will even try them. Same way with tunneling - make survivor run at 200% speed for 10s after unhook and the amount of tunneling will decrease rapidly, because killer will need to find that survivor AGAIN after unhook. (and FYI these were examples to illustrate the point. I am not advocating for such extreme times or speeds)
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I don't like this idea. Nerf medkits and shattered hope basekit means killers want to have nonstop injured survivors (and every boon is now meme buckle-up level perk) - especially soloQ would be screwed (no need to talk about another option in SC - this one got gutted for good and now can be considered killer perk without any reservation). CI basekit will not be balanced by kindred basekit. Reassurence and UB basekit can counter camping/tunneling, but will not be balanced by being nonstop injured. This would be direct buff to DH as it would basically become requirement - you can't heal so you might as well try to learn DH every time.
Overall I don't like this.
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@VaporLion said:
i think the idea with 6 tokens 2 for prot and 1 for normal hit would be good in theory. however the perk in itself is totally unbalanced as soon as it becomes somewhat good because it just grants you a guaranteed second chance which is undeserved and unfun to play against.
i think i would rework the perk so you only gain that effect if you are currently taking a protection hit. then this perk could only be used in certain cases, f.e. getting a teammate to an exite gate while tanking another hit or for sabotage builds tanking another hit.
that in conjunction with an easier activation of course.
Taking extra hits for sabotage implies that saboteur would need to be fixed - in description it states you sabo in 2.5s but in reality it's 3s. As killers are able to consecutively hit you at 2.7s, you would need to be able to tank like 5 hits for this to have any effect + sabo loosing CD (basically you would use sabotage only to not loose collision). Or purple toolbox with both speed addons. This is too big of an investment to be worth anything. I mean you can have sabo squad making you not hook anyone, but they won't do gens to get it efficiently. It's bad tactics that might be a little fun, but it almost guarantees you loosing the game.
What I am trying to say is, that this change would be almost meaningless buff.
IMO what would be meaningful buff is @mizark3 's version (this might even see some real usage - still not meta) or @sizzlingmario4 's version (I think this will buff the usage rate only a little, but we would maybe see this perk go closer to 1% usage rate).
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@BabyShrimp said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244743#Comment_3244743
Thanks! I'll be experimenting :D It's not much more boring than sitting on gens. I can kinda understand the argument that it's not being a good sport, but at the end of the day what matters is intention, so if someone is doing it bc it's funny, or for the memes, I can respect that. Like I don't hit on hook (unless I'm getting back at a cheeky survivor lol), and I give hatch, so I hope people know I'm not intentionally trying to ruin their fun. Even when I get basement or face camped by a Bubba, I just gotta respect it for what it is lol.
Then again depending on who you ask other people may not be as amused, obviously, and to that, I mean to each their own. Camping Bubba should always be an option, tho.
I don't agree. I actually find it quite fun to loose to CHASING bubba. The killer is much better then the credits he gets. Sure he is M1 killler. Sure good loopers can make it hard on him. But good chasing bubba can be a real beast. Especially those that can M2 moonwalk into a kill without hitting any close-by objects. Much more fun for both sides.
For the facecamping majority - you also force M1 on a generator. So you can be bored while being camped, or you can be bored by doing generators. One way or another, the game is just boring.
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@JustWhimsical said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244402#Comment_3244402
Same, I hate when they do it off the bat to my friends or me, as I'm not competitive in survivor and just wanna mess around with my friends. So it sucks when everyone is in a bad mood and, even worse, feeling like you can't help your friend out, though if it's close to the endgame is fair enough. Yeah, leaving everyone slugged and tunneling right off the bat in a game is just awful. What ideas do you have to make the game a bit more fun if you mind me asking I'm curious if you have any ideas I myself don't really know what can be done to deter killers from doing it.
Just fixing camp should by proxy fix tunneling to satisfactory degree. Right now it's still quite rewarding.
One of the things that could lessen camping is removing healthy hook grabs. The other thing would be to make each hook phase longer for say 10 seconds. This would deter from camping (endgame camping is basically unaffected and that is fully OK - because at end game there is no other objectives for killer then to secure).
If killer does not camp, then it's harder to tunnel, because killer will need to find the survivor. This is already a huge step forward. As a bonus this will not stop killer from tunneling if survivors go save right to the face of a killer (without giving him an option to actually get away from hook), because this one is also on survivors.
This is not perfect, but I find it to be very large step forward in removing both tactics rewards for minimal input on killer's side.