Map Offerings
"Oh, yet another person complaining about being sent to a map unfavorable for their Killer..." Im not here to complain about that, Im more so going to talk about how the design of Map Offerings is not really fair in my opinion.
Map Offerings have existed since forever ingame. They have the ability to bring all players (Survivors and Killers) to a certain realm (and by proxy, map). However the issue in their design is that Survivors can play 4 Map Offerings while the Killer can only play 1 Map Offering, leading to the Survivors having an 80% chance to getting their desired map and the Killer having a 20% chance of getting their desired map.
This needs to change in my opinion. I have two solutions for this:
- Solution 1: Map Offerings no longer send either side to a map, instead it prevents all players from being sent to a map, allowing Survivors and Killers to avoid maps they dislike. Dont like being on RPD as Huntress? Burn an RPD Offering. Dont like being on Lerys as Survivor? Burn a Lerys Offering.
- Solution 2: Survivor Map Offerings have their own calculation. Basically, all the Map Offerings played by a Survivor are calculated separately, each having a 25% of going through when all 4 Survivors play a Map Offering (% will be adjusted for the amount of players using a Map Offering). Once a Survivor's Map Offering goes through, the Map Offering is put against a fair 50/50 with the Killer's Map Offering. This way the Map Offerings played by Survivors as a team will have equal weight to that of the Killer's Map Offering.
Comments
Map offerings should be reworked (aka nerfed or changed). Yes, your ideas were allready said here before (the concept of them) and I agree.
"But you can balance maps" yea... that would take years and probably still some of them would be bad (example: The Game rework, made it even worse). It is way simply at least for now to just change the offerings. Maps take way too long to do.
Being one of the people who proposed this, I can only agree; it seems to me completely normal that one can have an offering preventing to go on such or such map.
Because even if four survivors would use it, they could only avoid 4 maps, which would still leave a certain number, and therefore would keep the randomness of the game.
In the same way, being able to choose to go to a map at 100% (ok, 99,9999999%) should not exist anymore.
Sure. Let's make it fair. Agreed. Also hide survivors for killer so he does not know what item he is carrying. (after all survivors don't see killer and especially don't know which addons he is using). Why should one side have something the other side does not have? :)
Im going to kind of disagree with that, DbD is an asymmetrical game, and while there are some areas where both sides should be equal, having both sides revealed or not revealed would negatively impact the game and would make a lot of perks on both sides useless. The game is designed to have the killer see survivors but not have the survivors see the killer. Map Offerings are an aspect of the game that can be changed, and has been changed many times in the past.
Ah so equalize one side and keep it asymmetrical for the other. Hypocrisy. Got it
Not hypocrisy. Im just stating that there are some aspects of a game that must be different, and some aspects that can be equal, the game has some design areas that can be changed, and others that cannot.
Imagine is killers could drop pallets and break them so there are none on the map. Imagine if survivors could break some breakable walls and make infinity loops on other maps. Some aspects HAVE to be different, otherwise it would literally not be DbD and would just be 4 survivors VS 4 survivors.
But I guess I am just an angry "killer main" even though I play both sides and have more hours and bloodpoints spent on survivors with a Prestige 67 Nea on Console. I guess Im just a hypocrite for pointing out a small flaw in the game. :)
(EDIT: I just now realized, I know why you started out replying the way you did, Im guessing you are still salty that you got flammed for making an awful post that most people disagreed with? Perhaps even upset that I responded saying how it would be horrible for game health?)
Killer has option to send survivors to any map he wants same as survivors. Survivor just have (4x) better chance. To compensate killer sees what survivors bring and survivors do not even see who they are facing. You want to nerf survivors without any compensation. That is hypocrisy.
And I also play both sides (it's just that I play survivor more). I don't even use the advantage to see what items survivor bring - but I also don't bring any map to my solo games.
"You want to nerf survivors without any compensation. That is hypocrisy." You might want to look up the definition of hypocrisy, because what I am saying is not hypocrisy.
But some aspects of the game are quite literally designed to be a different intentionally, Franklin's Demise, Overwhelming Pressence, and Lightborn becomes literally useless if the killer could not see items, and survivors would feel less inclined to run perks like Streetwise and Built To Last because of it. Perks like Hoarder becomes unless on every other killer except for Pinheard. Addons for Twins, Legion, etc become unless. A huge chunk of the game relies on it.
Also this is completely ignoring the fact that even if you see them bring an item, you do not know the exact item it is, you dont know if the survivors are bringing a Sabo or Repair Toolbox, you do not know what Flashlight or addons they bring for it, you do not know how strong of a Medkit the survivors are bringing, you can get a rough idea, but you do NOT know the exact thing a survivors is bringing.
Also with the Map Offerings, I think you are forgetting something, survivors still can override a Sacrificial Ward. The offering of an individual is made less potent than the offering of a killer, but the team itself has a stronger advantage over the killer since they are able to come together and be stronger as a team. That was the whole point in my design, because DbD is designed to have an individual be weaker than the killer, but be stronger as a team.
So it is not hypocrisy, I am following DbD's core design, you just choose to pretend to have some higher morality but ignore the evidence that is there going against you. Youve been flamed for this same argument before, it will happen again, grow up.
It is hypocrisy. By your words it's OK if killers have the game symmetrical when picking map, but once we talk about seeing what the other side is bringing to the trial it's all about asymmetric game. You pick one and stick with it. You accept asymmetry in map selection or you ask for symmetry in visibility. Otherwise you are hypocrite.
Also AFAIK franklin's work on ANY item (it's just more powerful against flashlights and sabo toolboxes). Overwhelming also work on ANY item. Lightborn is bit more problematic, but it can provide you with value even if you don't see any flashlight in lobby (because a, last second swap b, flashbangs c, residual manifest d, just lucky pick of flashlight from chest). So they are not literally useless (maybe and I stress the word maybe lightborn CAN be potentially useless more often). On the other hand survivors would also like to know if it's original pain pinhead or any legion - to remove their DH from build, if it's plague to remove their medkits. They have to endure asymetric nature because that's fair but killer should have total symmetry because that's fair? No no no. It's one way or the other for both cases
Also not knowing precise stuff is still better than not knowing anything.
If we talk about overriding sacrificial ward - that requires 4 maps of same kind. You see that how often? I have never seen that. But sure - buff sacrificial ward if that's such a problem for you. The offering should see some love regardless as it can do exactly nothing quite often (you don't play all games with survivor bringing map).
Again not hypocrisy. I even posted the word above so you can see what
Also I said some aspects of the game can be the same, some must be different, I never specified AT ALL that everything survivors had must be different and everything killers have must be the same or equal. That would be an entirely different sentence.
Because at that point you are putting words in my mouth, you (yet again) pretend to have some higher morality but blatantly ignore the evidence that is going against you, you ignore what I say and pretending that I am saying things when I am not. Some can be the same for both sides, some can be different from both sides. But with the systems I mentioned, you still choose to ignore how it still favors survivors, it just puts a better opportunity for killers to do more.
Please, for the love of God, read what the f- I put down and stop throwing words into my own mouth. And actually pay attention to what I am saying because you not only completely missed the point I made up regarding perks (ON BOTH SIDES MIGHT I ADD) being made useless by not being able to see the survivors items, since killers are less inclined to bring item countering perks (and survivors bringing perks to counter those countering perks) and more inclined to bring more slowdown instead.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy
Hypocrisy is the practice of engaging in the same behavior or activity for which one criticizes another or the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform. In moral psychology, it is the failure to follow one's own expressed moral rules and principles.[1] According to British political philosopher David Runciman, "Other kinds of hypocritical deception include claims to knowledge that one lacks, claims to a consistency that one cannot sustain, claims to a loyalty that one does not possess, claims to an identity that one does not hold".[
I highlighted the part that I am talking about. You are inconsistent in symmetry for killer vs asymetry against survivors. So again. You are hypocrite.
To the perks - sure their effectiveness would be reduced. Not nullfied. Same as map offering effectiveness for survivors would be reduced by your statement. And yet not nullified. One other thing - I see it the opposite way. I show you why you are just promoting one side and why you are being unfair and you just brush it off as that's OK and fair. Disregarding my argument that you just stick to one principle when it suits you and swap to the other one when it no longer suits you. Meaning you are inconsistent. Just to buff killers even more
I am not a hypocrite, you can continue to think that I am and ignore what I said if it makes you feel better, but I am not. Just because YOU CANNOT READ WHAT I AM SAYING AND UNDERSTAND IT does not mean I am a hypocrite.
With what I said, symmetry still does not exist because the Sacrificial Ward's entire existence makes it asymmetrical and still in the favor of survivors which I have stated that I am fine with, again, some aspects can be the same (50/50 for map offerings), some aspects are not the same (survivors can override Sacrificial Wards), stop throwing words into my mouth.
Also, might I add, you started this by stating the seeing 4 Survivor's items comes with the upside of being able to bring in 4 offerings to the Killer's 1 offering, when I never at all used that comparison for anything I have said. Seeing 4 Survivor's items is a feature because the 1 Killer is outnumbered and needs to plan for the match ahead. The 4 Survivors can coordinate items to bring as well in the pre-game chat (I stated in other posts that Console players need pre-game/post-game chats to make better use of this coordination). That entire aspect of the game is designed around the number of individuals for both sides, Map Offerings have nothing to do with it.
You state it has nothing to do with it. I 100% disagree. Killers can better pick perks because they see used items AND SURVIVORS CAN'T DO THE SAME. On the other hand survivor have numbers so it's more likely they will get better map. Both things touch (a)symmetry of how lobby works. You just want to change it exclusively for one side and I don't like it.
As for sacrificial ward argument - I already said I agree that the offering could use some buff. And sure enough the buff can be in making sure all selected maps are not played (so 4 offerings don't override it + you can't get the map anyway by pure random chance). But that's different topic (but if you were to propose it, I would agree with you).
And to your feature argument I can state that killers should not see it, because killer has more powers then survivors and has advantage over any single survivor or any build. Making it moot point same way as your "but survivors have numbers". Both are true. But in current state killers have the upper hand anyway, which is underlined by official stats (again 39% escape rate for survivors). Your argument would hold more ground in older versions of DBD where kill rate was lower.
"You state it has nothing to do with it. I 100% disagree. Killers can better pick perks because they see used items AND SURVIVORS CAN'T DO THE SAME. On the other hand survivor have numbers so it's more likely they will get better map. Both things touch (a)symmetry of how lobby works. You just want to change it exclusively for one side and I don't like it."
Survivors can still anticipate certain perks and addons being used and there are ways to completely hide items to Killers. You can last second swap, which people who have flashlights often due since the Killer in most instances might not be able to predict a last second swap.
If everyone brings items, Survivors can anticipate a potential Franklin's Demise and bring in perks to get more use out of their items or restore charges to their items. Or if the Killer sees 4 Flashlights, the Killer might be more inclined to bring Lightborn, so some people swap to other items as to prevent having 4 of the same item.
There are some stuff you can do, just both sides need to think about it.
Also I think it comes down to just coordination being the difference, that coordination is not consistent but I mentioned in other posts that I think Survivor as a whole needs to have more coordination and communication options.
"As for sacrificial ward argument - I already said I agree that the item could use some buff"
Im fine with the Sacrificial Ward being the way it is because it rewards Survivors coordination in Map Offerings to deal with, it creates a situations where Survivors have to think about what is bring brought in, it can be tricky to deal with a Sacrificial Ward because some platforms do not have access to communications but I would like those barriers to be reduced, people have been waiting for chat options on Console platforms.
"And to your feature argument I can state that killers should not see it, because killer has more powers then survivors and has advantage over any single survivor or any build. Making it moot point same way as your "but survivors have numbers". Both are true. But in current state killers have the upper hand anyway, which is underlined by official stats (again 39% escape rate for survivors). Your argument would hold more ground in older versions of DBD where kill rate was lower."
I have made forum posts about making healthier changes to the game, which include better Quality of Life introductions for SoloQ, as well as some other things. Survivor is in a pretty rough state atm and a lot of people are really demotivated to play Survivor, so I made this post kind of following the stuff I said previously, would recommend checking it out if you havent. Some of the stuff I mentioned here even tie back to it.
if there was practical way to communicate this, then I would agree. But I don't see a way how to make effective communication between console and PC players. I presume this is also main reason why people tend to ignore lobby chat even if there are 4 PC survivors. If the (real life, not just theoretical possibility) coordination for last second swaps and map selection was possible, then sure enough I would agree with you. As it stands right now, I already gave you a feedback for what I think about this change.
So probably the only thing I can say is, let's agree to disagree on this proposal
You know there are Mapes survivors don't wanna go to either right? Also I wouldn't mind survivors seeing the killer if I didn't know that people would just never load into a map against certain killers. I wouldn't even completely blame them but bhvr knows this and would never in a million years go through with it.
The funny thing is, there are good ways of communication that are easy across platforms. Chat Wheels have existed for a really long time and make chatting accessible to Consoles easily.
Also Console still has access to Keyboard and Mouse for chat features, back when I was on Console (I swapped from Console to PC not that long ago), I use to use KBM to type in codes BHVR released.
Oh I know about it. For example I don't care what killer it's going to be. I NEVER want to find myself on midwitch. Or shelter woods for that matter (but this one is tricky, because groaning and suffo are OK maps). What is your point though? I am not going to quit the game just because I see midwitch offering
Yes and I really want this one in game. I don't really care about lobby for this one, but having this in game and being able to ping "I am being camped", or "Survivor [NAME] come rescue me" (because you are the closest one and I am not being camped) would go very long way to equalize solo vs SWF. I think even basekit kindred that many people suggest would be redundant
My point was that you made it seem like this had anything to do with being able to see the killer when those are 2 completely different convos
So balance killers that nobody wants to play against. Also close the gap between swf and solo so that killers would not mind going against SWF. The idea of fine solution to the problem by hiding it under rag is not exactly good solution
Yeah again these are 2 completely different discussions. I get it some killers are just awful to go against, even if they arent that strong, and yes the difference between solo queue and swf is way to big. Those are fine convos to have but make your own thread about them.
It is all tied together. If gap between solo vs swf and best vs worst killer was much lower, same as difference between best and worst map, then this whole topic would not make sense. Map offerings are fine. Problem is, that it can make the game too much 1-sided. If you fix map balance problem, then you don't need to remove map offerings
Okay lets just tackle every single massive issue the game has under the topic of map offerings. I agree the large disparity between the best and the worst in the game in all aspects is to vast, but there isnt a single change that would fix that so changing little things here and there help and right now map offerings are a problem.
Otherwise theres no reason for bhvr to change or add or remove anything in the game till certain things are fixed and as much as I'd kinda like that they've already said they won't multiple times so its pointless to even talk about. We've asked for that and they said no. So regardless of how connected you think it is or isn't its still off topic and pointless to talk about here.
It's not offtopic to me. Because if they get balance to the game, that will probably not result in return to map offerings.
And as it stands right now, map offerings are 4x as probable to be for survivor benefit. Considering all the official stats for kill rate, I doubly don't want temporary measures that weaken already weaker role. I would agree to remove map offerings if it was balanced by something - like not showing what items will survivors bring. Or if the kill rate was swapped and survivors were escaping at 61% rate.
You basically just said "if they just fix the game its not a problem" which is definitely not on topic and even if all the maps were balanced, which will almost certainly never happen, i'd still prefer map offerings to be map bans instead of guaranteeing a map.
And under balanced conditions, I would much rather prefer to be able to pick my map (so I actively don't want proposed solution). There are multiple reasons. Maybe I play mirror meyers. Maybe I played both lery's and midwitch twice last 4 matches. Maybe I want to learn totem spawns on the newest map. Maybe I have a challenge to fall from a great height and don't want to play flat maps like wreckers or shelter woods.
Map bans would not really solve any of these.
Falling from great heights can be done on any map because of basement, killers sending themselves to maps that greatly play to their strengths is part of the problem, and sure there are multiple maps that suck but if you take out at least one of the maps you hate but rng is always gonna play a factor so it'd be far fairer to just get the map you hate most out of the pool.