Gandor
Gandor
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@EatedABees said:
Something that does not get addressed enough is generator speeds. Prove thyself can knock 30 seconds of a gen without a toolbox. While some killers struggle with map pressure it feels like gens pop way too quickly.
The new scavenger perk is extremely concerning as it allow toolboxes to be replenished.
Coconut made a video covering this, while there has been an added slowdown, using the toolbox or having multiple people on the gen will counter that. (https://youtu.be/g0v4xRwvSts)
When multiple people run prove thyself and split into pairs it can become a really big problem as it can be difficult to keep up without losing 2 generators in 30 seconds. Not to mention that it is one of the most used survivor perks.
Could we possibly see either an increase to generator speeds or a nerf to Prove Thyself as it feels like were heading into an ugly genrush meta and this cannot fly under the radar any longer.
I would like to know where your math comes from. Because AFAIK proof knocks off ~6s from gen. Yes. It's 7s if 2 people are working on a single gen. The thing is, that the effect it provides barely counters basekit malus for multiple survivors working on a single gen.
Going into math: both basekit malus and perk are 15%, but the base from which you count is different - to illustrate base speed is 100%. If 2 survivors work on a gen, each will get 15% malus for 85% repair speed. Now you take this new base 85% and you calculate +15% from this base - which is 0,85*1,15 = 0,9775 speed or to use percents again - you get 97,75% repair speed. Meaning that if we take gens take 90s to repair, but you have 2 people working on it, you would theoretically do it in 45s if there were no modifiers. With proof and basekit malus, it's 90s/(0,9775*2) ~= 46,0358s instead. Without proof, you get 90s/(0,85*2)=~52,9412s to repair the gen. Given the difference between these 2 numbers, proof actually shaves off little less then 7s. This presumes no great skillcheck/toolboxes/anything else is in play (because those would eat away from that bonus even a little more). Now I am really curious how you came up with 30s, because this just does not add up no matter how I try. Also as you can see even better then using proof is to split to 2 gens where you get 2 gens completed in 90s which can be averaged into 45s/gen or 100% speed (meaning you do your gen ~1s quicker AND save a perk slot).
And for scavenger - it seems you are misinformed. It was already stated, that PTB version of this perk will NOT go live. The perk got changed completely and even though it will still remain mildly useful in niche cases, it will absolutely not boost your repair speed (basically they added extra token for requirement and as the perk activates it provides huge debuff for gen repair for 30s - making it useless for genrush purposes and instead making it only good for batch-like repairs - basically only useful against 3gen camping)
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3449746#Comment_3449746
after real problem gets solved? you mean before it get solved because after it get solved, you have no reason to use the perk.
A perk that allow you to manipulate the distance of gen-spreads on command is extremely powerful and has to have large drawbacks. you can technically use the perk in normal gameplay but it will not be faster to repair gens then simply going to gen and directly repairing it.
In my opinion, it will like not be solved because 3 gens have been part of the game since the start. The only way you can organically solve it is by changing the maps and where generator spawn. Making the maps bigger makes it easier to solve because the gen spread is often naturally large, though you should know what killer think about big maps like Red Forest and Original Eyrie crows. Killer often express dissatisfaction and discontent when playing big maps.
It can still work as a niche perk for soloQ where you somehow count on your teammates creating 3gen.
Sure. It should not be good at it's job and I agree with everything else you wrote - it is map issue and red forest (but I should be more specific, because temple is OK in my opinion, but mother's dwelling is just problematic) is in my eyes about as problematic (just in an opposite direction) as say azarov's 3-4gen or saloon's 3gen that you will get there every single game.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448399#Comment_3448399
What about creating an anti 3 gen perk?
Here's my idea.
Boon: Telepathic Energy
When repairing a generator for 3 seconds, press active ability button to mark a generator to activate the perk. Only one generator may be marked.
When Boon:Telepathic Energy activates:
Press and hold the Active Ability button near a Dull or Hex Totem to bless it and create a boon totem.
The survivors in 24 meter radius of the boon totem that repair a generator will instead repair the marked generator at 0.25/0.30/0.35 efficiency. While the generator is being repaired, The marked generator cannot be blocked and cannot be kicked.
When marked generator is completed, the totem is automatically snuffed and the perk deactivates.
Like very interesting idea. It has just a tiny problem. You don't need it until you find yourself facing skull merchant.
This is the same problem as old boil over - you don't need iron grasp or agitation, so long as you don't get 4man abusing old boil over in some vertical map. The idea to fix the problem with perk just in case it's X is not a good solution really. It's better to solve X rather then creating perk bandaid for it.
That being said - the perk would still be interesting niche perk after the real problem gets solved.
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@Ithiria said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448179#Comment_3448179
Did you read the rest of what I said?
A lot of gamers in general damage their hearing by turning their headphones up to better hear things, and this is exacerbated by loud ambient music and music, in particular when certain killers have music that's a lot louder than others. Like imagine you have it set so you can hear survivors decently outside of chase, and then when you get in the chase, the music absolutely starts blasting, that's really uncomfortable.
Personally I just use a compressor to deal with the problem on my end, similarly as to how I use filters to deal with excessively dark maps like Garden of Joy.
I don't actually think I'd agree with making it an option to turn off chase music, it probably would be way too hard to escape the killer if they could hear you perfectly, but I think some of the louder chase musics should be looked at and tuned down.
I think you have a point. But the balancing aspect is there most definitely and it plays HUGE role.
I think better solution would be for the game to lower ALL sounds the same way once chase starts - just so you don't get above certain noise threshold to damage your ears.
@EternalRique said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448163#Comment_3448163
Why in the world would music be used as a balancing measure? If that's true.
Because especially with nurse (and spirit and of course to varying lesser degrees for every other killer) - hearing your location means death to you. I don't need to guess. You just die
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Maybe you tunnel too much? Usually teammates are trying to take hits for each other to combat tunneling. And boy we still don't have enough counters for that.
If you really don't like it that much, try to play some survivor and you will quickly change your mind after being tunneled from game after game after game.
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It would be too easy to script a bot (or even create a payed service for public) that would earn as many BP as wanted. And there would be nothing devs would be able to do to combat it.
I don't think it's good idea
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Because otherwise there are no mindgames. I don't need to see you to know which direction did u go if I can hear you clearly - and I am sure of it, because to a lower precision I can already do that on spirit (and she has weaker noise when using ability). There are so many noises (from pro-killer's perspective: vault sound, drop to ground sound, drop pallet sound, footsteps, grass, breath, injury to name a few I remembered on top of my head, there's even longer list for survivor favoring sounds).
So overall if the game is too loud, then just lower the volume. Sounds were designed with loud chase noises in mind.
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@Witchubtet said:
Certain Elements of danger of not completing a side objective could lead to more compelling and heart racing matches. Something creeping closer at every passing moment. Even if you make it map oriented it could work. Fog rolling in on Elementary or perhaps bombers flying overhead on a WW1 map causing noises to be covered?
I would not be exactly happy if the game overall became very loud. Even if lerys is generally killer sided map, I just hate to get it as spirit or pinhead because of how loud the map is (random cable shocks sound like pinhead cube. I just can't count how many times I wasted precious seconds looking for it only to find open cable).
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@Archael said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3449313#Comment_3449313
Im not even try to secure kill in the lategame. If i did not killed anyone till the endgame, i mostly left them on a hook. If people are willing to unhook they are free to go, if not, then its kill for me. (Tho mostly they die before endgame, maybe because im so generous so my MMR is not so high).
To each his own. I think it's only fair to camp at endgame, because there's nothing else to do.
Then again, I have had games where I left basement with 3 people hooked inside (altruistic team going down 1 by 1 trying to go for flash saves) to have more interesting game, so I get you.
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This is just insane. Hooks are every 20m making it always possible to get to hook safely if you don't greed. On some maps the distance is more like 15m or less (yes you saloon) and some maps are like 10m apart to comvat verticallity (seriously - the game can have 2 hooks in single "room").
Sabotages and altruistic plays (like body-blocking) are integral part of the game (and btw reason why I am even willing to play survivor). Remove it and there's exactly 0 reason to play survivor. It's about as important as whole killer's ability.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3449207#Comment_3449207
Your description seems to be extremely problematic perk.
It would be different kind of wire tap, so the effect itself is not problem. Considering that the reach would be higher and destroying boon is more time consuming, it would need to be worse in it's effect. One possibility is to provide the aura intermittently. Like 2s aura and 5s of nothing.
Overall current dark theory is one of many many perks, that just make no sense to bring (and I suspect it's mostly used for memes to have "most worthless boon" or "full boon build" (there are just 4 boons, so...) or speed build (bloodpact, dark theory, hope and power of two)).
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@mangomilkshake said:
Why instead of removing the PH buff you simply just rework some add-ons that make applying torment easier instead? Increase length of trails base kit or something? Just kill switching torment off his power without some sort of compensation makes no sense to me. He needed that little bit of love- applying torment is so inconsistent as it is and easily avoidable when playing against survivors that can use their eyes during a match. Not only that but his current add-ons are a joke.
Avoiding torment is currently the only defense against hard tunneling. Sometimes it's worth it to take hit rather then torment oneself.
Reason? Cages are absolutely unbalanced with regards to survivor safety right after uncage. Fix this issue and the proposed buff from PTB can stay. Ignore it and any addon rework that would spread condemn more would be just as problematic.
Also, the killer should seriously get an addon pass one way or another. He has 3 ok (not even "good") addons and they all do the same effect - make his ability have slightly longer reach.
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It's mostly merchant problem, but not just her. It's also map problem. Saloon has terrible 3gen while red forest has none. Maps should be geared more towards coal-tower-like 3gen.
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@lifeisstrange said:
Bubba is an abomination that should have not exist and I really wish he was gonna be gone since he would have his own game, unlike ghosty/myers/oni who have to work for their power and cant use it infinitely(unless its that judy add on on myer) the fact he can just have a instant spamming down that can moe over everyone is one of the most stupid designs ever. The less bubbas the better. They been enjoying this for years now its time for them to sashay out that basement.
Nah. The killer is actually fun. Problem is, that most people play bubba as camping machine. If you met me, you would enjoy the match very much (maybe except endgame where securing kill is the only thing left to do). I run 0 camp/basement perks, run pain res so I will probably not hook you in basement. And even if I do (because it's closest hook and pain res is used up/out of reach), I will run away ASAP.
The killer is quite fun. All that devs need to do is nerf his camping ability and slightly buff his chain duration (against good opponents, it feels required to bring award chilly+beastmarks). And if you get chasing bubba, it's also very much fun to go against him. Sure - the experience is much tougher (as a survivor) if you get gideon's the game, but on most maps it's very much fun
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447988#Comment_3447988
Ehh Ormond has its own issues. The only 2 maps I have difficulties seeing scratch marks on are Borgo and Ormond. If we could customize scratch mark colors it would be fine, but for whatever reason I just can't for the life of me see scratchies only on those 2 maps as Killer.
Ormond is also in general more punishing to the more fun/fair Killers than the oppressive lot. Blight can just dash across the large distance, even if he has to circle the loops normally as an M1 Killer. Spirit gets free wins on the 50-50 central that map further exaggerates. Artist can DMS camp hooks for massive pressure, and so on. Whereas Legion can barely chain multiple hits even if they spawn together, and its the Legion's friggin' map. Trapper barely has any grass to work with, and more. I almost think there should be 2 variants, 1 with a (much) larger main building, but only the main building, and the other with a smaller main building, with the rest of the map shrunk accordingly. Almost like the RPD treatment. (Personally though I had no problems with RPD as both sides with the old single map, and find the new double maps to be too centrally campable. There needs to be more outdoor routes to sneak to the back of the sides, and not force all traffic through the center.)
I agree with OP in regards to the title listed maps, but most of the other maps they talk about are either fair or Killer sided. To be fair if I take the Oni profile pic, and my experience with Oni players into account, that would explain quite a bit. The Onis that never drop chase in bad spots typically end up losing. I find far greater success in chasing 1 person to get multiple pre-drops, then chase another person into that deadzone.
The Onis that never drop chase in bad spots typically end up losing. I find far greater success in chasing 1 person to get multiple pre-drops, then chase another person into that deadzone.
Isn't this true for basically all the maps?
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I don't like this proposition. Killing obsession just like that is insane and helps for quick 3v1.
Also. I will repeat myself. Meyers can't get any buff so long as tombstones exists (even though he should get some buffs if those addons get nerfed)
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448734#Comment_3448734
I have yet to see merchant forcing 3-gen from start and I always remove 3-gen first against those killers, so I don't get into that situation if possible.
(I haven't played that much during CoB era)
There is simply not that many killers that does use 3-gen from start and never commit. It's same as gen rush squads, it's boring to do.
From killers I mentioned, it's probably true that skull merchant have easiest 3-gen to do. Next is probably Legion.
lucky you... And yes. It is boring (I would argue from both sides, but some killlers like it for some reason). That's my main point
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448680#Comment_3448680
Passive regression is not only way to regress gens.
It's also not best after perks for it were nerfed hard. Skull merchant is better for passive regression than others, that's true. That's why she was nightmare before CoB build nerf.
Other killers I mentioned have mostly higher lethality than her, so they can use perks like Jolt, Eruption or Pop to regress gens by %. They don't need passive regression that much.
Yes agreed. But until certain level, survivors (and basically whole soloQ) just don't know how to counter it. On the other hand it's not that hard to do on killer's side. Playing good 3gen demo is MUCH harder then playing good 3gen skull merchant. And also - she still does get value from active regression, because she still gets sneaky hit from time to time (after 40 minutes, you are bound to do a mistake or two).
Don't get me wrong. I am not saying she is OP and it's impossible to win against her. It just needs much more coordination/teamplay and it will always take ages to win. Making it quite pointless to try. Because even if you win - the question is "was it worth it?" And say that the answer is yes. Would you answer the same after 2nd such game? 3rd? 10th? Because for me it got old after single game.
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@Thumbs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448661#Comment_3448661
Having all info perks for free, ignoring half the status effects, and being able to coordinate kinda helps, too, I think.
Look, SWFs are necessary for the life of the game, but are absolutely miserable to play against. Let's not pretend otherwise.
About the same as playing against C33+alch ring blight, MDR+amulet spirit, tombstone piece meyers, .... Both sides have some strong stuff that feels bad to go against when unprepared (usually resulting in stomp IF skill level does not dictate everything).
My original point was - that balancing around trapper on killer side and around SWF on survivor side is about as unfair, as balancing around nurse/blight on killer side and soloQ on survivor side. So mentioning "BUT WEAKER KILLERS" just to get extra buffs is.... Not taking full picture.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448302#Comment_3448302
I can get similar or better results than merchant with:
Legion, Demogorgon, Wesker, Hag, Knight, Artist, Nurse, Blight
All of those can win on 3-gen reliably. Issue with merchant is her lower lethality. Doesn't matter which side win, merchant will be slower than other killers. That's why she is hated most. She is not really better at it.
Most maps don't have that good 3-gen. Some maps need it to be somehow playable (Garden of joy).
Saloon and RPD should have 3-gen nerfed.
Thing is if 3-gen is an issue, we should talk about gens which are impossible to defend too and fix both in same patch.
I still disagree about other killers being better at holding 3gen. Other killlers don't have ability, that basically forces survivor to wait (for regress) until they can start to work on gens. That's the biggest difference.
Otherwise I agree with you. 3gen is map-specific thing. Like haddonfield had awful 3gen, that got (thankfully) removed. But now the map has nothing for killers to play around - it should probably nerf houses a little. There are quite a few maps, that have some issue one way or another
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448286#Comment_3448286
Well, killer simply needs to get someone out of the game before there is 1 gen left to have good chance of winning.
Most killers/players are not able to get that with 9 hooks.
So options are tunneling or 3-gen, when you get low on gens. I am not sure which one is hated more.
Tunneling since first hook sucks for sure, but I haven't seen that many killers do it.
But that's not what we were talking about :) The debate was about how soloQ is actually bad BECAUSE of MMR "working" too loosely. And it's true you can sometimes get carried, but chances are high it's the other way around and you being weaker will result in dragging your whole team down.
As there are 4 survivors and MMR is kinda random and 1 bad player drags everyone down, for that soloQ is nightmare.
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@RubberBrain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448456#Comment_3448456
Also solo Q is a play style within survivors if killers need nerfs to help Solo q (Or if the alternative which is buffs) then Killers would also needs buffs if your taking camping or tunneling
It's about same playstyle as picking trapper instead of nurse. The difference is, that picking killer is ALWAYS a choise. Having or not having friends available is NOT ALWAYS a choise. Also comms is probably the least differentiating fact between soloQ and SWF. The biggest benefit is, that you can play with friends that are about as strong as you are - so you don't have someone dragging you down. Your friends will also not throw the game for a challenge. Your friends will also not take sole survivor or don't leave everything for someone else. Your friends will not let you go 2nd stage if possible and so on. Comms is just one variable and not even the biggest one. And soloQ is by far hands down THE weakest role in whole game.
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@RubberBrain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3443785#Comment_3443785
Multiple survivors? What about the weaker killers? What about them just splitting up? Maybe you’d rather people only play killers like blight and nurse? The difference with killer and survivor is that every survivor is capable of the exact same gameplay while not every killer may like the gameplay of nurse and blight.
What about weaker killers is same as what about soloQ. If you want to go that way, then ALL killers need nerfs - some more, some less...
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@[Deleted User] said:
I dont understand why more survivors try to break a 3 gen in the beginning of the game, when there are still 4 survivors. I so often see survivors go to from gen to the next one without thinking. Like on the garden map, u always have a 3-4 gen around the main building. Yet often times exactly these are the ones, survivors wanna do last. You can play strategically as survivor too.
Depends on MMR probably
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@Mandy said:
We're aware of the issue surrounding the "3 gen strat" - we did comment as much in the patch notes for the PTB with the proposed slight buff to Deja Vu to help with the issue in the short term whilst we come up with a longer term solution. So this is something that is on our radar.
I am happy u r looking into it. Keep up the good work :)
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448094#Comment_3448094
I have no clue what a "killer-sided map" even looks like, usually when people start to "name some" those are just pallet-town nowadays.
but pallet-town can be managed on SOME killers I guess.
This just shows how biased you are. Which is only understandable when you name small hut in Ormond as something braindead easy for survivors with 0 agency on killer. As a killer this is usually (not always) hit for me (if we are not talking about balanced landing)
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448296#Comment_3448296
Brings gen rush builds to SM
SM is good against gen rush
Survivor complain on forum about SM.
2 commodiuses with 2 BNP's in your 3gen and the game suddenly looks very different. Do this as 4 man and even SM stands no chance. Especially her, as the only thing she can do is hold her 3gen.
But that's besides the point. I don't want to play BNP's every game just in case it's SM and just to reduce 40mins game into 8-15mins. It would make much more sense to adjust SM and be done with it.
Also taking BNP's against "normal" killers feels bad. It's like taking MDR+amulet spirit every game just in case I get 4BNP's survivors. I rather go next then have all the games boring because I am afraid of 1 of those few games (thankfully most people don't like merchant. That's the only saving grace).
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@nars said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447997#Comment_3447997
For one, I think I mentioned that SM needs her design looked at anyways. Shes simply messing with how the game needs to be balanced, like nurse and aura perks. Gen kick meta NEEDED to die completely bc of SM. Awakened awareness/im all ears have to be mid bc of nurse. She should have a full rework so design stops being bottlenecked.
The math doesnt include chasetime. Or hitting someone. Or doing ANYTHING other than patrol and kick. The comment actually says that the math is pretty hyper specific. I used some numbers kind of generous to the killer too, 15s to patrol all 3 gens means its a pretty close 3gen. like 20m between each? ~10 survivor models stacked horizontally. So if survivors are gaining 12s of progress per patroll, probably closer to like 7 bc you run early and come back late. but even the net gain is positive. Include time to chase and down someone, or even just get a hit for some extra time regressing and the gens still get done. Just happens slower. The math doesnt even include all 4 survivors or double ups, just one survivor working on each gen. it clearly favors the killer and still the gens are going to finish. 3 genning isnt the issue its skull merchant.
I know on dead dawg theres some 3gen you can patrol by standing still. But on most maps you have to walk for at least 15s to patrol 3 full gens. It was math based on if the game was balanced. I made assumptions so the math was possible to do.
Besides if that math factored in hits and chasetime etc etc then boom the survivors win. Committing to chase means not defending the 3gen, so more progress. If you are running pgtw or surge or pain res then yeah you make that time back but otherwise they are getting the gens done sooner or later. I actually say at the bottom of the post that SM is an exception.
@nars said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447997#Comment_3447997
In addition, yeah SM is bad game design and is way too good at 3genning.
Normal killer 3gen: Try to find a survivor and down them so you progress your objective while survivors slowly progress theirs. Hope you win the battle of attrition, killing survivors before the gens go off.
SM 3gen: Know when and which gen a survivor is on at all times. Doing generators will expose the survivor, and give an audiovisual cue to their location and exposed status. If they cleanse the drone, then you know where they are no matter what for about 30s and get a speed boost.
- If they dont cleanse, they are always exposed and shouldnt even bother healing. Easy fast chases and fast hooks ---> kills.
- If they do cleanse then other survivors can do that generator, but you are now faster for every drone they cleanse. ESP and speed bonus make patrolling very easy. Once their claw traps are gone, place drones and repeat.
Only SWFs can realistically cleanse all 3 drones and start doing gens. Even then, she has a fourth she'll probably place on the most progressed making all your effort useless. And even then that value is limited to about 30s of time before she gets her drones back and you have to do it again.
she needs a full rework.
Sure. I was talking specifically about skull merchant. Like knight can be also obnoxious about it, but he can never be as bad as merchant. If they removed/completely changed merchant and maybe adjusted knight, then there's no issue whatsoever. Survivors do get some progress against every other killer so even if it costs several hooks, it's fine. It's not a problem. SM (and to much lesser degree knight) are the only problems in my opinion
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448007#Comment_3448007
I've played her with chase perks and have been very successful simply because survivors have VERY predictable patterns when facing her, no slow down needed.
It's a boring killer to play against because of the way the survivors approach the killer.
They try to push one by one like they usually do with other killers and that ends up in a stand still.
That's why I like her so much.
The only way survivor can win is if they actually push at least ONCE as a team to break the 3 gen.
but survivors don't want to learn how to play, they want free gen rush wins with BNP and prove thyself.
This killer is the only reason why I would ever bring genrush build. But it's so boring, that I would rather take an L then have all my games miserable. She is the reason why people should just in case bring BNP's and other genrush perks.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448279#Comment_3448279
Well, I always thought best thing about SWF is ignoring match making. You choose who you play with.
But your theory expects killer to always find weak link as first target and killer has to tunnel and survivors can't help.
Yes. You are right. Some killers don't tunnel even if it's easy. Some killers tunnel first person they can find. Most killers I meet actually first try to chase everyone a little and then decide who needs to go out. But you are actually right - this is not a rule. This is just something that happens more often then not.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
As long they won't reveal exact number for each player, you can't really prove it's not working.
Survivor could get carried by teammates.
Survivor is altruistic and gets lower than should.
Killer can lose MMR on purpose.
Survivors can increase their MMR only by escaping, so basically most soloQ survivors are in MMR hell.
Even when you are good survivor, if you are altruistic, you will die for it -> lose MMR.
It usually works the other way around (and it's the reason why soloQ is such a hell). If you get 3 very good survivors and 1 bad against mediocre killer, my bet is on killer's win.
Said killer will probably easily tunnel out the beginner for quick and easy 3v1. MMR needs to give just one weaker survivor and it's done deal. But if you are swf and you are all 4 mediocre, you will suddenly get an even match that is challenging for both sides.
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Huntress is in a good spot. Please don't change anything about her. Especially her map-wide shots. They are pretty hard to land (using correct angle, timing it right, surprising survivors because they have time to dodge, not hitting any obstacle on the map). I see no reason to remove most skillful aspect of the killer
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The killer is plain boring. I have yet to see one exciting match with her. It's always the same thing. She either forces 3gen, or she looses. One way or another, the games are always horrible. Better to just take an L and be done with the game ASAP. You can have at minimum 2 other fun games in same time as her snooze fest. After such a ling time, I cba if I won or lost that match
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@nars said:
Nah, the situation you describe only really happens against bad survivors. 5 seconds of working on a gen as survivor in a 3 gen scenario is pretty easy, takes more than that to patrol anyways. so one survivor does 5 seconds while killers off at another gen in the 3 gen, killer comes back and kicks it. Takes away the base 2.25s, then takes 11s to regress the remaining 2.75s of progress. Net positive for just one survivor.
If the survivors are smart though, they'll be splitting progress on gens so they are always getting progress while your away.
Ex:
- 3 gen scenario. Lets say it takes 18s to patrol all 3, 6 between each. Lets pretend theres one survivor on each.
- So, theres on survivor on each. It takes 18s to patrol all 3. Assuming the killer kicks every generator, thats an added 1.8s to the patrol time per generator. so, we now have 5.4s added to 18s. The patrol time with kicks is 23.4s
- so 23.4s for a full patrol. I'd imagine the survivors would run when they see their the next gen to get patrolled, so they get off abour 2/3s into that time then get back on when you go. so about 15s of progress per patroll.
(this scenario is obviously mathematically specific and is more to show that good survivors will get a net positive on gen progress in a 3 gen despite kicking)
Alright so 15s per patroll, kicks remove 2.25s. so closer to 12.75s per patrol, without doubling up and without added gen timers. Regression goes at such a slogged rate Im not factoring in the time its regressing before survivors come back. So 90/12.75= ~7 patrols before a generator goes off.
This excludes getting hits and hooks though. Faster killers can obviously patrol faster and ranged killers can get hits more consistently for slowdown. but if someones hit, it takes 16s to heal. so if the gens regressing then you lose 4 seconds of progress. so for everyone injured, excluding the progress gained while the killer was off injuring them, the total progress per patrol is reduced by 4s. but even then the 12.75s would still need 3 injuries just to be negligible.
while that math is pretty specific I think you get the point. gens will be gaining positive progress per patrol unless you are playing a killer with great 3gen, like mid merchant who can prioritize the gens being worked on and get quick downs thanks to lock on.
Read her power description. It does not take 5s for her drones to be hackable. After they are hackable, it doesn't take 0s to get to it. It doesn't even take 0s to hack said drone. The net result is, that you are most definitely NOT getting extra time, if she has close 3gen (which a lot of maps have), are not on comms and she doesn't really commit...
Rest of the math is also about as wrong, as saying chase takes 5.4s, because hit cooldown is 2,7s and u need 2 hits...
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447683#Comment_3447683
You know exactly where to run during 3- gen situation.
It doesn't really matter if you run into killer, you would still want to get behind them away from 3-gen.
On some maps you have good line of sight, where you can prerun even before you hear TR, this way killer has no way to commit on you.
Sure, setups like this are separate issues. RPD is most likely worst for this.
But I consider that map issue, not really 3-gen in general.
I think there should be 3-gen on each map, but not this strong. Nurse can hold blink and he able to teleport to each of those gens on RPD easily (with library gen).
Then you have Groaning Storehouse on other side, where you have 2 gens, which you can't really defend unless you have power for movement.
But I fully acknowledged that the catch-up time can be too long. The thing I mentioned is, that it usually doesn't mean you can only start chase at 15m or more (but on the contrary, usually the distance is a little shorter). Even in 3gen situation this can be true, because if you have all 3 gens within 30m, then you don't stop working on gen just by killer looking at your direction.
Also IMO 3gen is always (also) map issue. Depending how close the 3gen is, you can or you just can't break it. Make maps look like red forest and there's never 3gen problem. Have maps like saloon and you always have 3gen problem (I specifically mentioned those 2, because they are both overall problematic - and both would need an adjustment in 3gen - and as you rightfully pointer out, red forest should contain at least something more similar to 3gen)
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447709#Comment_3447709
According to BHVR, QoL is allowed to directly influence the game. Here's the quote, where BHVR calls the Survivor HUD a QoL.......
Yes I do remember. That indeed didn't look like QoL to me. More like a balance change to even a little the information level between SWF and soloQ
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447501#Comment_3447501
A removal of mind games? You mean FOV techs won’t work as well anymore? Get over yourself dude. “Not a QOL”. It’s the DEFINITION of a QOL improvement.
Definition of QoL is most definitely autobuy feature in bloodweb. There's 0 possible way how this would actually directly influence the game. Wider FoV is definitely NOT QOL under any circumstance. You could argue accessibility (one of reasons for shadowborn's existance), but that's it.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447507#Comment_3447507
i did account lunge. 15-6 is 9 meters.
it indeed takes ages to catch up. The thing is - that you don't usually get to have such a distance before you know where to run.
what makes you say that? there is something called terror radius.. also known as heartbeat that tells when killer is nearby. if you do not understand the heartbeat by sound, a recently added Visual UI of heartbeat is available. In soloq, it is a lot harder to keep distance with no TR but in 4 man SWF. no TR is no issue.
You can't run away as soon as you hear any TR. 1, you can run directly into killer this way 2, you would be useless for your team. This is especially true when talking about 3gens as killer can position so, that he would be within 15m from all 3 gens at the same time (some maps are small enough to spawn 3 gens in 30m radius).
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446551#Comment_3446551
I didn't think about Wesker, this sounds annoying. He would be able to get into point where everyone is infected with no spray...
Funny is how everyone complains about Merchant, but I don't think she is best at it. It's just PTSD from her release with CoB.
I can get same or better effect with Demogorgon. I know you are working on gen, I can teleport there and I can setup portal in a way that I can push you into my 3-gen zone. Also STBFL will snowball.
Hag, Demogorgon, Knight, Wesker, Artist can be good too
Skull merchant is not really better than those. Her main issue with her is lethality. If I just hold W away from 3-gen, she is not able to commit.
I respectfully disagree with you on this one.
Wesker might be up for discussion if he can get to the point of no sprays (which takes a lot of time giving possibility for survivors to break any 3gen - that's why I don't consider him problematic).
But your demogorgon is very bad example. Sure he knows where to port with his 3gen. Sure he can quickly get people off gen and sure STBFL can work wonders on him. But if 3 survivors press 3 gens, then they can always work on 2 of those. Also he has cooldown on his teleports, so even if survivor starts to run at gen mid-burrow, you as a killer can't do anything about it.
That's not the case with merchant. She uses her ability and goes away. As a survivor, you can either wait for the drone to be hackable and then hack it and then start to work on a gen (which takes A LOT of time = long downtime), or you can go to the gen immediately being exposed AND practically oblivious for very cheap and easy hit/down. There's just no comparing it. Like they could be comparable if you don't really have a 3gen and last gens are quite a distance from each other, but not in 3gen camping case. This does not even factor in her extra speed from hacked drones.
This ability to postpone working on a gen for merchant is the main factor that distinguishes her from knight (also good one even if not as good, because he can pressure 2 out of 3 gens at the same time), hag (wiping traps takes a lot less then hacking drones + setting traps takes time), artist (she can't really pressure 3gens that well - she has info, but repelling does not take THAT long and lockers+dodging crows do exist) or any other killer for that matter.
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447258#Comment_3447258
Skull merchant is not really better than those too. Main issue with her is lethality. If I just hold W away from 3-gen, she is not able to commit.
yeah it is hard to explain. It is lack of catch-up. some people might throw the word Mobility or use word Map Pressure. I think these word do not describe problem too accurately. if you are ahead of the killer like 15-20 meters away, the killer move at 4.6 m/s while survivors move at 4.0 m/s. 0.6 m/s is very slow that for the killer to come close to the survivor that is 15 meter away. For example, to catch-up to a survivor 9 meters away, 9/0.6 = 15. it takes 15 seconds for killer to catch-up to the survivor to be able to hit them. 15*4.6 is 69 meters. rounding up to 70 meters. 70 meter is the size of half of the total map size in dbd. As long as survivor is within 70 meters near a pallet, they get to that pallet. You do get to bloodlust 1 but a lot of the pallet in dbd are safe with varying degrees of safety. 2 survivor on a generator finish gens in 52 seconds. your chase as killer has to be shorter then this otherwise you lose the gen. most of the killer have no gap-closing/poor gap-closing tools to deal with this type of gameplay.
Skull merchant is not that bad because she does have 3% haste from those drone traps. it does shorten her catch-up but it is not exactly strong. she has some add-on further improve it to be more serviceable.
I didn't think about Wesker, this sounds annoying. He would be able to get into point where everyone is infected with no spray...
yes exactly. His bounds give incredible catch-up as first bound is 7 meters and 2nd bound is 14 meters for total of 21 meters meaning that you are almost never in safe distance against him with your perceived strategy. he perfectly counter it.
Your math is actually not perfectly accurate. The distance/time is much shorter, because lounge exists. But it's true that if you have long distance as survivor against M1 killer and use it, it indeed takes ages to catch up. The thing is - that you don't usually get to have such a distance before you know where to run.
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Disregarding the situation where I use it, sprint for half the duration of the perk and still get hit (AKA pokos hits - which happen way too often also outside this perk), the perk is perfectly OK. It's 1 of 2 of my most used exhaustion perks. The other one being bg player (which is new - so it should be clear how much more experience I have with balanced).
If anything, there's still too little hills/upper floors/vertical loops in a lot of maps and maybe they could do away with 1/4th of stagger completely. But these are just nitpicks that don't really need to be addressed (there are major problems with 70% of all the perks. This is absolutely not important stuff in comparison).
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447051#Comment_3447051
More FoV on spirit a killer whose power literally makes her unable to see survivors isn't exactly giving her much value.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447033#Comment_3447033
Technically speaking visual terror radius and survivor hud "ruin the game" as they are recent additions that weren't originally intended to be in the game. Yet, because these things were needed they were added because accessibility is more important than perceived tactical advantage. FoV controls or just a better default FoV is needed for accessibility purposes and should be given the same level of respect.
Mindgames aren't going to be harmed by this and if you think FoV tech equals mindgame then you don't understand what a mindgame actually is. That wouldn't be surprise as a lot of dbd players don't actually understand the concept of a mindgame and treat it as if it is a very hard binary tech skill when it isn't.
Visual TR does 0 for people without disabilities. Sure the 1st implementation was too "forgiving" giving huge advantage against onryo. That's no longer the case. This is true accessibility feature.
Survivor HUD was never meant to be accessibility feature. It's purely gap-closing feature to allow soloQ to be less miserable compared to SWF. There's nothing more to it. Any competent SWF get exactly 0 benefit from HUD, because same and more information is already shared between them as is.
And FoV techs are mindgames. Especially when Oni runs at you with your ability and you just hide behind the barrel. If Oni sees you or expects you to do this, then you as a survivor just die. If you use shadowborn, you will see said survivor hiding behind the barrel - completely negating any option (AKA mindgame in this case) survivor could have done. Exactly the same thing would have been the case if stretched res returned to the game for survivors - it would be again possible to track killers above walls - negating anything they could do to get the hit.
@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447051#Comment_3447051
God forbid killers get a nice QOL basekit change that would make playing killer much more enjoyable, and being able to use all 4 perk slots. QOL shouldn’t have to be a perk.
But it's not QoL. It's removal of mindgames. That's the problem. If FoV could be adjusted without actually showing more information to killer, then I would call it accessibility too... That's NOT the case.
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447051#Comment_3447051
The perk is often rated at the bottom of tier lists, regardless of which killer is using it.
Interesting. I see many tryhard blights taking the perk - knowing the players to not suffer from headaches... I wonder why if it's so bad...
@nars said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447033#Comment_3447033
except the difference between killer and survivor fov is the entire POV? one is first person and the other third. Survivors have plenty of situational awareness already which is why stretched res got nuked. But killers have such a choked fov its painful. And no FOV techs are not a core part of dbd, if it has tech in the name then its probably unintended. FOV techs only work on stupid killers anyways, with the exception of very fe that rely on being completely offscreen thus unaffected. So many killers are being forced to use shadowborn because killer fov makes them nauseous. They literally get sick without shadowborn, how is that okay for the sake of some barely usable techs?
Also, theres a fine line between techs and gameplay features core to the game. Yes, killer fov is choked on purpose to allow for more plays to be made. But its not fair to prioritize niche plays over accessibility. Deaf people dont have to deal with no TR every game, why should those with motion sickness be forced to use 3 slots just to play the game? Its essentially the same situation, just that deafness is a more severe disability.
- Deaf people cant hear TR --> All deaf people run spine chill --> BHVR takes notice and adds visual TR. Deaf people now get the 4th slot.
- Motion sick people cant play killer --> All motion sick people use shadowborn --> BHVR completely ignores them.
I mean, at least deaf people dont become physically ill without a terror radius. Its just not fair to hold FOV teching of all things over basic accessibility options. Fov would only meaningfully affect gameplay if it could become majorly extended, like 2 shadowborns. Nobody is asking for that, people just want a slider from current fov --> shadowborn fov. If such an increase really mattered that much, shadowborn wouldn't be an F tier perk. So, make an F-tier perk optional basekit so those with disability can play on equal footing. Yeah it'd be a sick QOL change for everyone else,but its like arguing that visual TR is op because it shows up before the heartbeat sounds begin. Its just such a miniscule difference then playing without it that the accessibility is so obviously more important.
Whats affecting game balance more, shadowborn or killers being forced by their disabilities to use 3 perks only every game? Survivors using adrenaline have to survive a whole game with 3 perks and are rewarded massively. Except playing with only 3 perks with motion sickness rewards you with... the game that you paid money for being playable.
FOV Techs vs Accessibility...
FoV techs work against competitive players. If you can't pull it off, then that's your problem. The case I was talking about before with Oni (and same thing applies to blights) is prime example that happens way more often in high level play then in average-to-beginner level.
Also it's not niche. Against competent blight/oni and to lesser degree nurse/spirit hiding mid-chase (for a very very short time) is one of very few options you have. FOV is paramount there.
And your example with deaf people ignores the fact, that they get LESS benefit than healthy people - visual TR gives exactly 0 extra information. That's the biggest difference. Even if visual TR is nice, you will not get extra distance on killer or escape a hit because of it (well the 1st implementation was broken - but it was rightfully criticized and fixed).
And again. You calling the perk F-tier doesn't make it so. The perk is very good on high mobility killers. You can call it F-tier on said clown where it only helps against 360's or window techs or any other animation-lock-fov-techs there are. That's not much. But on mobility killers, it's quite often difference between hit and miss.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447033#Comment_3447033
It doesn’t “ruin the game”. Shadowborn is very often shoved at the bottom of tier lists.
And basekit Shadowborn certainly wouldn’t be anywhere near as game changing as the Survivor HUD is.
Sure. For clown it's very meh perk. Take it on blight/oni/nurse/spirit.... The perk gives a lot of value.
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@Bartlaus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446964#Comment_3446964
2) Cheeesus! If you had put a comma after "no", I would have understood you 😂 Ok, now i got it.
3) My mom always said Solo Q is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get. I agree with you that bad MMR increases the problem. Unfortunately, many mates in Solo Q don't play escape- or team-oriented and prefer to take care of quests and achievements. That's why I wasn't happy with the introduction of the Rifts because people only thought about their quests. Since then, the quality of my matches has already decreased. But that's my personal Mimimi.
2, sorry. My bad :D
3, Exactly. And those are some of the reasons why I just refuse to play soloQ. It's either killer (so most of my games), or SWF. Nothing else. And SWF does not even need comms. I don't care about comms that much (sure it does help, but it's not the reason for wanting to play SWF).
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446866#Comment_3446866
Survivors don’t need a compensation buff for a killer FoV slider, because killers got zero compensation buffs for the Survivor HUD.
It’s bad enough that we have a roadmap going out for the next year, and there’s zero announced killer-only things to look forward to. Killers should be able to get new features, without survivors getting something favorable for them.
I was just showing how ridiculous it would be to add more FoV to killers in a same way by a same adjustment. It's just wrong. It ruins the game. If you need it, use the perk.
@nars said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446866#Comment_3446866
because accessibility QOL that affects nothing about balance is equal to gaining an UNFAIR advantage with an extended 3rd person view.
It removes mindgames to too high degree. Read OP's 1st message - he doesn't want to get FOV-teched. That's basic part of game. Remove it and you can remove other things like survivor items "as a QoL change that affects nothing about balance "
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@egg_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446891#Comment_3446891
Uhm no sweaty 💅🏻
At any common rock loop he'll just catch you with his 4.6 speed
He gets pallet to the face (something almost impossible for nurse). So no. He is much weaker then nurse, because he can't ignore pallets/windows as nurse
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@Bartlaus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446930#Comment_3446930
I've asked about buffs and nerfs for both sides in the past. If you think I'm biased, fine.
killrate is currently quite a bit higher then 50%
and
killrate is still high, so no exhaustion perks are fine the way they are
The kill rate is a bit over 50% and that's because the exhaustion perks are too bad? I'm honestly glad you're not responsible for balancing.
You have to ask yourself why the kill rate is a few percent higher than intended. You say Solo Q is a nightmare. But why is it that most Solo Mates die? Consider how often your mates let themselves die on the hook or sabotage the match by trolling, questing, or doing anything but gens. That's why the devs can't just rely on the stats alone.
BTT: Regardless of any stats, I'd still appreciate it if less popular exhaustion perks were made somehow more attractive.
I think you misread me on a few occasions.
1, I didn't mean to suggest you are biased, because I don't know. All I tried to say is, that everyone thinks they are not biased
2, I don't think exhaustion perks are too bad. I think exhaustion perks are just fine. They shouldn't be nerfed even further, but also they shouldn't get buffs.
3, soloQ is nightmare no matter if your teammates outright suicide, or try to play the game normally. Most often the issue is, that if you want to do some ######### challenge, you won't drag your friends down - so you do your only no mither challenge in soloQ. Another thing is, soloQ is much more selfish resulting in everyone dying when they could have 3-outed. Another thing is, that matchmaking is a mess. And if you have 3 good survivors and 1 bad AND killer will figure it out (meaning it's not hard-ass tunneler just for tunneling purposes), then the match is very much in favor of killer. And as a last thing (but this one is least important no matter what other people say) - comms also do help.
4, stats are scewed for killers benefit. DC games don't count (which happens often when your team is loosing - but it's 4x more likely for survivor team to have someone DC then killer team). Giving hatch/gate is also a thing and the only thing that offsets this a little is farming killer. Overall the games where it's just pure 1-sided killfest are not counted in a lot of cases, because one of the survivors is very likely to just DC.
To your last note - agreed, but I would go even further. IMO devs should buff ALL the perks for BOTH sides that don't have high usage rate. It's a little bit more tricky on killer's side (because iron maiden is fine perk on trickster and huntress and is usable on a few other killers, but most of the killers rightly consider the perk just trash-tier), but there's still some objectively good/bad perks and going by numbers - most of the perks are bad on both sides
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@Bartlaus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446906#Comment_3446906
I enjoy playing both sides equally and am perhaps one of the least biased players on the DBD forums. That's why I expect fair balancing for both sides, of course.
You say the kill rate is high. But how do you know that? Based on the last stats I saw, the average kill rate was just over 50%. So almost like the devs wanted it to be. Even if we had new data and the kill rate was too high, we couldn't draw any conclusions that the exhaustion perks are too weak.
In my experience, with the right Exhaustion Perk, I can extend a chase a lot. The only problem is AddOns or Fearmonger making me exhausted.
Everyone will always think they are the least biased person. The only thing that can help in this regards is to actually play both sides (and I personally play more killer now as it feels much easier/rewarding then soloQ=true nightmere right now). And what I can tell is, that most people just want to win all the time (on both sides). So as long as there is something they can blame it on, then that's the thing the other side will complain about. Just as a pure example - say you remove ALL survivor perks and items. There will still be killer players, that will loose against better survivors - those will probably complain, that there are too many pallets on maps, they are too big, vaulting for killer takes way too long, etc. There will always be complains, because everyone wants to win.
The only fair thing that can be done is to actually look at the data and make sure both sides win/loose/draw on average the same amount as the other side and that there are skillful things that make impact on the results (otherwise you can play rock-paper-scissors for the same result).
Also AFAIK killrate is currently quite a bit higher then 50% and that is the case for a long time now (from patch 6.1 onwards).
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@Bartlaus said:
If you're struggling with exhaustion perks, you might want to try Fearmonger. Killers with low mobility enjoy it.
Gen Speed is a problem when people are playing with Hyperfocus StakeOut + Commodious Toolboxes + BNP and when they are spreading out to the Gens.
Yes. But that's devs take on the game. Both sides have unfair stuff. So long as C33+alch ring blight (and other equivalents on other killers) stay, so should these busted toolboxes. Ideally both would be removed at the same time (but that would be quite a work as there are many killers and most of them have something busted).
Anyway - killrate is still high, so no exhaustion perks are fine the way they are
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@egg_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446867#Comment_3446867
He can literally blink twice just like nurse and if he fails the hit he's still 4.6. He also has recharge add-ons (nurse doesn't have them anymore because they were broken) and one to shorten the second blink to make the first one longer. He also has an addon that lets him hold the second dash before going into fatigue longer, making any mind game useless (uncounterable)
S+ tier
One most common rock loop and I will show you diffrerence between nurse and wesker. Because as nurse I will get the hit 95% of times if you don't leave in time. As wesker? There's no hitting there.
Very similiarly works all jungle gyms, LT's and most of filler loops.
You not knowing how to play against killers does not make the killer objectively S+ tier (maybe against you only).
As was mentioned previously - the only change/nerf wesker should get is removal of easy tunnel right after unhook. That's it. Everything else is balanced.