Firellius
Firellius
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@Miles said:
Why are people crying over bbq now? One of the few perks that doesnt encourage camping?
Actually, that's how it works in theory, but I've seen some killers say that if BBQ doesn't show them any outlines, they start camping since they know someone is nearby.
I don't think BBQ & Chili needs any adjustment, but I do think it causes more campy behaviour than it prevents.
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@BenihimeWrath said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2292363#Comment_2292363
I guess survivors will just have to suck up being camped and tunneled in that case. The positions are symbiotic and the moment one side starts to inflict trolling or nonsense on another, the other feels vindicated to do the same, creating a vicious cycle. Ultimately the problem is that gens are finished too quickly. I performed an experiment with discordance, tinkerer this weekend to see how much survivors can complete before the first down and the time it takes for 4 gens to have popped/be ready to pop is only about 3~ minutes into the match. How do you expect competitive human beings to resolve this sort of math? Thats right, they'll immediately employ any tactic available to them in their attempt to win.
Something also to consider, which it seems nobody else is, is that there would be only 4 generators to be completed with only 3 survivors, as that is how the game scaling goes. That means 50% of generators can pop before the first hook, and if the unhooker is safe enough then 75% of generators can be completed before 2nd hook, if not 100% because the first person unhooked immediately gets on a gen still injured. (A behavior that often happens, at least once a match I'll say.)
That's pretty much how these two opposing issues get one another stuck.
But suggestions on gen slowdowns are considered, while the heavily killer-sided forums will discard any suggestions to counter camping outright. I wouldn't want anti-camping to be implemented on its own, ideally, we'd get both gen slowdown and anti-camping in one patch, but we can't have one without the other.
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@OtakaChan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2289287#Comment_2289287
But all killers complain about 4 survivors and gens being done too fast what do you guys think should be done then because everything else just gets abused.
Nothing. Killers will have to suck it up as long as they're unwilling to let go of camping as a potential strat, because anything implemented to slow down gen speeds will make camping more effective.
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Honestly, with the way keys interact with aura reading, I really think that the broken and dull key should be removed and replaced with dedicated aura reading items, with more reasonable charges and uses.
It would also help with keys messing up Ace in the Hole.
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@DbD_Enjoyer said:
TL; DR: Nerf Killers and Buff Survivors! NOW !!!
You didn't need to add the DR, it is painfully obvious you didn't read if that is your takeaway.
Not too keen on the WGLF idea, spreading things out a lot would probably actually make it somewhat harder to stack multiple stacks. I think it's fine to declare any of the options repeatable, as there's really no harm in letting WGLF hit 4 stacks more consistently. I'd personally feel more for distributing some of the conditions to other perks, like giving Small Game or Detective's Hunch a BP bonus upon cleansing totems, or a gen-related perk give a BP bonus per X% of gen progress.
Also, I think it'd be better to make it 'cleanse a totem' than 'cleanse a hex totem'. The latter will be dependent on the killer and will be in VERY short supply, which causes survivors to compete for it.
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@OtakaChan said:
Since tunneling and camping are an issue reduce the survivor count per match by 1. 5 gens 3 people equals more time. Killers don't have to camp or tunnel and everyone has wiggle room. This is the only solution I have.
That would be an enormous buff to camping and would make it quite likely to reliably achieve a 2K, possibly even a 3K.
Camping won't be solved with survivor nerfs, since those tend to directly or indirectly buff camping.
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@CashelP14 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2288707#Comment_2288707
Oh ok I understand now lol yea this seems like a good idea then.
Though I will say this only really helps players who are prepared to put a lot of time into this game and are prepared to spend a lot of money buying dlc. I know a few of my mates who hardly touch this game and this won't really help them. Here's why:
- They aren't going to buy every dlc or play enough to get them free.
- They won't play enough to level up a bunch of characters to 50 then use all their good offerings/items before prestiging.
I think they need something more helpful for newer players who don't play that often. For players who want to get more perks without having to buy characters first. Basically a better Shrine Of Secrets.
Well, as the perk list keeps expanding, it'd be fair to split the Shrine into killer and survivor perks and offer four of each, at least for now.
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@CashelP14 said:
This would increase the grind would it not? So for me to get one character to have all the perks in the game I need to P3 every survivor/killer?
That 6 million bloodpoints I used to get all 3 perks of Meg's unlocked would've been better used unlocking Bill's, Meg's and David's perks. I get the idea is that I don't need to spend more bloodpoints getting the perks in the bloodweb for my main but I still think overall I'm spending more points.
If I try to P3 max perks every survivor/killer it may reduce the grind then but only if I'm doing that.
No, this would be in addition to the current system.
So you can still unlock and level perks as normal, but if you have a P3 David, then all characters will have Dead Hard, No Mither and WGLF at max rank straight from the get-go. They won't have to level those up at all anymore.
Say you have, I don't know, 18 perks in the pool or something like that, and you P3 one of your characters. Then that reduces the pool to 15, so if you want to get all perks maxed on another character, you'd be saving yourself those 3 perks worth of bloodwebs.
If you were to have all survivors at P3 except for the latest, Jill and Leon, then Jill, for example, would only need to level her own, and acquire and level Leon's perks, plus the ones not bound to any other character.
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@FrndlyChnswSalzmn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2288165#Comment_2288165
No, it made camping impossible and forced Killers to just allow saves or lose and made it so Survivors could just loop the hook with no consequences. Why do you think that's fair?
No, it doesn't force killers to allow saves, you can still intercept. You just can't squat the hook anymore.
And if a survivor is looping you around the hook with 'no consequences', then they could loop you elsewhere where there would be the exact same consequences, with the one exception that there'll be 3 survivors working on gens as opposed to one of them dangling on the hook the entire time. The issue isn't the hook timer slowing, it's you getting looped for what is apparently 80+ seconds.
And all of that can be fixed by making the hook timer progress as normal when the killer is in a chase and for 10 seconds after it to cover spotty detection.
Fairness can factor into the wider picture. Loads of killers are complaining about high gen speeds, but nothing can be slowed down because any slowdown would be a direct and substantial buff to camping as a strategy. If camping is nerfed harshly enough, the game can be slowed down overall to give killers more breathing room.
Camping is holding the entire game hostage, not just that one sucker on the hook.
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This may be a necro-post, but it it still relevant.
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2287793#Comment_2287793
Nothing has changed about why this was a bad idea. The same problems are still there.
To be fair, the only thing anyone's ever put up as a counter argument was that the anti-camping mechanism made camping inefficient.
Which... Is kinda the point.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2287601#Comment_2287601
But it IS possible!
Great tactic, when the game is almost over and I've never been hooked. I'll gladly sacrifice that one stage for 75% more points.
That's not a good tactic at all, if you get hooked when the game is 'almost over', you run a way greater risk of getting killed since killers have a better idea of where everyone is or is going, and they're more likely to protect their hook.
If you die on that hook, you got the three stacks, sure, but you also miss out on 5000 x 1.75 = 8750 BP.
IMO, WGLF should also award stacks for picking someone up from the downed state, and additionally, some other perks should grant BP boosts as well for completing their targeted gameplay style. Like Detective's Hunch or Small Game awarding a BP boost for every totem you destroy, or Visionary awarding BP boosts for clearing gens.
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@AVoiceOfReason said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2287463#Comment_2287463
If you're working on a gen, DS automatically deactivates. You do realize that? The moment you touch ANYTHING, it deactivates. It's only purpose is to discourage tunneling. It's not 60 seconds of invincibility anymore. If a killer sees you on a gen after you got unhooked, you're free game.
I don't think he does realise that, I think he's unaware that it's had all its offensive use nerfed out of it.
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@Dodgingbears said:
This is a very bad Idea. If you have been around awhile you would understand why.
Actually, if you've been around a while, you might misunderstand. DS was finetuned to fulfill its purpose more precisely.
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@NekoTorvic said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2285480#Comment_2285480
Context key errors: A mistake on the player's part, should not punish the opposing player and reward the player that made the mistake.
Bad hitboxes: Hitboxes are fine. it's a cone in front of the killer, and the animation is just cosmetic, once you understand that you know how to play around it. It's a skill survivors should learn.
Latency: A true issue, BHVR should fix their servers. However no reason to punish the killer and reward a survivor that got outplayed, and you can more or less account for latency once you experience one hit with weird latency.
Errors on the part of other survivors: Survivors have to work as a team, even if most of them just can't. There's a reason their actions are cooperative. A mistake on your team's part should not punish the killer taking advantage of it.
DS is still massively powerful, good survivors can still be aggressive while using it, and it's especially devastating during late and endgame. The rest is up to you as a survivor. My point still stands, if you're unable to turn a 5 second head start (plus however long the killer took to down you in the first place) into a good chase that buys your team time, then that is 100% totally on you, and you have no reason to deserve that kind of safeguard twice in a match.
Let me be clear with this again: Nobody, not killers, not survivors, should get massively impactful safeguards that literally negate the fact they got outplayed unless they actually require them to do something demanding. Like Pop, for instance, regresses a gen, but it requires you to outplay your opponent and win a chase. More of a reward for your good job than a safeguard from mistakes, unlike DS, or even Spirit Fury.
Imagine, BT and DS giving you essentially 3 health states while you have to do NOTHING other than hit a skill check and still think that you need more.
How is it a mistake on the player's part if the game is not functioning as it should? Standing under a pallet for a full second without the context key popping up, mashing up against the window and the game delaying its activation so you miss a running vault, those are 'player errors'?
'Hitboxes are fine', have you ever, even once, played a match against a Huntress where you did NOT get hit through a solid obstacle? Because I haven't.
Latency: So it shouldn't punish the killer, but it SHOULD punish the survivor. Gotcha. Also, no, you can't account for latency because it is not a consistent factor. Just had a match where a Plague caught me because her lag image circled clockwise while the actual Plague went counterclockwise, leading me to run into her. She hadn't been lagging up until that point. And no, she didn't double back, I saw her rubberband into me.
Errors on the part of other survivors: It does blow a hole in your idea that any time the survivor is downed, it was due to an outplay on the killer's part.
DS is still massively powerful, good survivors can still be aggressive while using it, and it's especially devastating during late and endgame.
It is really not, because it comes at the expense of you being unable to act otherwise. It is designed to keep killers from tunnelling and currently it just fails to do that because one five second stun means the perk is gone and that's a big ol' green light for tunnelling.
Let me be clear with this again: Nobody, not killers, not survivors, should get massively impactful safeguards that literally negate the fact they got outplayed unless they actually require them to do something demanding. Like Pop, for instance, regresses a gen, but it requires you to outplay your opponent and win a chase. More of a reward for your good job than a safeguard from mistakes, unlike DS, or even Spirit Fury.
Killers have far, FAR more perks with little investment and massive pay-off. Their entire board is littered with perks that are easy to trigger, if they even have a trigger, that make things considerably more difficult on survivors. Should we also remove Ruin? I'm All Ears? Corrupt Intervention?
Imagine, BT and DS giving you essentially 3 health states while you have to do NOTHING other than hit a skill check and still think that you need more.
Imagine being dumb enough to get baited into a DS not once, but twice. Talk about getting outplayed.
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@NekoTorvic said:
How about you learn to lead the killer on a chase after getting a 5 second head start because you were allowed to escape the killer for free after he literally outplayed you twice?
Good survivors make massive use of this perk. They barely need safeguards in the first place because they have the skill to turn a 5 second head start into a huge chase.
That's the value DS gives you. It literally allows you to undo the fact the killer outplayed you to down and hook you and then downed you again to give you an extra health state for you to work with. If you can't work with it, that should not punish the killer, and the game shouldn't hand hold you.
Not everything in this game is down to personal skill. There's plenty of issues that can occur that can leave someone unable to fight back, like context key errors, bad hitboxes, latency and errors on the part of other survivors.
DS ONLY works if the killer is on your tail before you can do -anything-. It's perfectly fair to have it activate twice per match as opposed to the arbitrary once per match it is now.
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@PNgamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2282791#Comment_2282791
no this perk is not fine...no one can tell me that this perk is fine atm....and there is a reason why so many ppl playing with this perk atm. Sry
Is that because upwards of 60% of the survivor perk pool is borderline unusably bad?
I mean, I don't see Spine Chill that often anymore, but it's good that we have something that competes with the absolute top most picked perks.
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@Woodywool said:
Since RE chapter, we have zombies for the Nemesis that controlled by AI.
It would be great if we have something like zombies but from SH games (for example, mannequins from SH2 or Nurses from SH1) and these creatures ONLY attack tormented survivors. Maybe, they'll have same speed as Nemesis's zombies but amount of them could be more.
Litter the map with dozens of mannequins, but only a few are actually alive. They jump into action when the tormented survivor gets really close, still giving them some time to react, but keeping them on their toes.
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@Raptorrotas said:
Short answer: No.
- It's fine
- They did it for a reason
- It's more balanced
- It was too strong compared to other anyway.
- It was ised in unintended ways
- Bad players get carried by it.
It doesnt deserve or warrant a second usage. Its stun wasnt even nerfed.
They did it for a reason, -back when it worked off of being picked up without requiring to be hooked first-.
They kept it for a reason, -back when it didn't get deactivated by doing literally anything that helps the survivors-.
But the perk is now incredibly conditional and ONLY serves to hinder tunnelling. The fact that it only works once is entirely unreasonable.
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In regards to your suggestions...
- I think it should be either Torment -or- oblivious, not both. And I'd prefer to see it apply Torment. It'd give him more consistent access to it and makes it more rewarding to land an admittedly quite difficult to land skillshot.
- I like the idea of torment getting different effects based on add-ons, but the problem is that these kinds of gameplay changes can make add-ons swing his power level too much. Imagine it gave Hindered, for example: PH without it would be balanced, but with it would be broken powerful in loops. At the very least, though, I think the 'gain undetectable while standing in the trail' add-on should become 'Survivors that are afflicted with Torment become oblivious for X seconds', to give it much, MUCH wider application.
- I, uh... I'm not going to mince words here: This is one of the worst suggestions I have ever seen. This is hard, VERY hard camping incentive on top of the ability to turn any dead end area into a basement, AND the fact that it disables anti-camp perks. This would turn PH from a very fun to fight killer to the absolute worst thing to face, and it wouldn't even help him perform better. Absolutely not, cages are fine as they are.
- I think this suggestion actually nerfs it from where it is right now. Any death hook survivor that is afflicted with Torment can currently be executed by Pyramid Head, regardless of whether they were caged or not.
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Because the alternative is forcing survivors to drop Victor ASAP, and that strategy makes Twins incredibly oppressive, since it allows Victor's non-existent cooldown to pressure survivors extremely easily. Before I realised you can kidnap Victor, I found Twins horrendous to play against. Almost as bad as Hag, even.
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This can't really work for DBD's systems, since killers are chosen during matchmaking and offerings are enacted upon entering the match, which comes after.
Not to mention everyone could just keep throwing Trickster offerings out.
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Vigil: Now works on Broken as well. (This makes it synergise with For the People, Deliverance and Second Wind)
Autodidact: When healing another survivor without a medkit for three seconds, press the active ability button to set skill check chance to 100% for one second. 20 second cooldown. (This reduces RNG reliance and guarantees a baseline number of skillchecks.)
For the People: Beckoning reveals your aura to survivors within 8 meters and declares this perk to them. (Helps to convince people to let you take the one second you need to steal their injury mid-chase.)
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This doesn't do anything to fix grind, this makes prestiging a little easier.
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@odra said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2276203#Comment_2276203
is the perks good ? please answer this
is the nemesis perks gonna change meta ? of course not, so it's like dev buff monstrous shrine but no one using it,
yes that addons got nerfed and that's the most important ones compared to the other addons
"Is the Nemesis perks gonna change the meta?"
When's the last time a survivor perk changed the meta?
Not even 'changed the meta', when's the last time a survivor perk lived past release week?
I suspect it might be Nancy Wheeler's Inner Strength.
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@gendoss said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2276344#Comment_2276344
Nah the one from DbD looks nothing like any of those versions.
He resembles RE5 Chris quite a bit, IMO.
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I was pleasantly surprised with how well he came out! Not perfect, of course, he could stand to get his glutes back and purse his lips less, but he's still pretty good looking and another one for the 'good-looking male survivors' list. (Which Leon also can get on)
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@TicTac said:
The Franklin demise change is a really bad idea. Only draining the charges instead of destroying the item does nothing to the strongest ability of keys. Opening the hatch.
I know they want to change keys but lets be honest. It would be optimistic if we expect the key change in 6 months.
Why is it such a big deal if survivor lose their item? I almost never play with an item and im doing fine. And killer always cant keep anything.
Why is it such a big deal if survivor lose their item?
Friend pointed this out to me: Because some items are only attainable in a very short timespan. You don't want your event toolbox or flashlight to get destroyed by a niche perk like that. This change allows people to salvage them.
I do agree however that this should've come with a nerf to make keys no longer open a hatch if they're drained of charges to keep FD's interaction with keys the same.
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@FilthyLegionMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2270315#Comment_2270315
Not really that difficult if you've been playing 10 hours at least.
It doesn't need to be difficult, it just needs to keep you on the gen long enough to make the trade-off more fair.
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Autodidact: Added functionality: When healing another survivor without using a medkit for 3 seconds, press the active ability button to set skill check chance to 100% for one second. 20 second cooldown.
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@CoalTower said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2269113#Comment_2269113
She doesn't always have the time to sicken you if you continue cleansing, therefore giving you the ability to heal again. Yes, it isn't as efficient, but it doesn't completely nullify the playstyle. However, even if it did, it wouldn't matter. We're talking about perks, not powers. Learn the definition of playstyle before saying that those perks disable survivor playstyles.
Is that why you skipped over the perks mentioned?
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@CoalTower said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2268928#Comment_2268928
Play styles don't. Those perks only hinder play styles.
You can use lockers against Doc and cleanse against Plague.
I don't think you know the definition of playstyle, because your comment is so uneducated it's mind-blowing
You can't call me 'uneducated' while saying that cleansing enables a healer playstyle against Plague.
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@CoalTower said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2268737#Comment_2268737
Yeah it was a bad analogy. How about a killer perk that prevented looping?
You mean Bamboozle/Blood Favour/Crowd Control?
Or did you mean anti mind-game stuff like I'm All Ears/Stridor?
Killers cancel playstyles all the time. Try playing stealthy against Doctor. Or healer versus Plague. Run stakeout against Wraith or Pig, or Smash hit against Pyramid Head, Nurse or Huntress.
Or hell, don't even bring in perk choices or killer choices and just squat on a hook to disable rescues.
'Playstyles' get disabled all the time.
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I've learned to manipulate it a bit. After a certain level, when it spawns multiple perks, it always tries to give you a choice between unlocking a new perk and upgrading one you already have unlocked. If you have no perks to upgrade, however, it will simply offer more new perks. So just skip the perks you don't want altogether, even if the bloodweb offers nothing you DO want.
That said, this needs improving, especially with an eye on the future. As more and more content is added, this is going to get worse.
I'll restate my earlier idea: Prestiging a character should permanently unlock their perks for all survivors/killers. That way, they're taken out of the perk pool and you don't need to fish for them anymore.
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@SalmonDean said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2267118#Comment_2267118
Power Struggle is more of a meme perk. It’s far too situational to ever be considered strong lol. I also remember people saying it was a problem and I can’t even remember the last time I saw somebody use it.
I saw it being used in youtube videos, back before I played, then once I saw its description in-game and understood what it meant, I assumed it had been nerfed.
It hadn't. It's always been -that bad-.
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Did OP not stop, at any point during that entire essay, to realise that both Small Game and Detective's Hunch are in the game already? Counterforce isn't even the best option for anti-totem.
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I made a No Mither derived build, but with For The People instead. I just steal someone's injury to use for my own gain. Might adjust that to include Desperate Measures instead of This Is Not Happening.
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Tunnelling will be pretty much impossible to resolve, but I do think camping needs to be adressed, since that ruins the game for literally everyone involved.
I enjoy a meme build, I've got a silly Plunderer's, Ace, Streetwise, Appraisal one, but it really is borderline unplayable.
Though my field medic build (We'll Make It, Botany, Desperate Measures, Self-care) does considerably better.
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Jill for her perks, but then I'm setting up Leon to actually play with. He cute.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2264063#Comment_2264063
If the game is balanced for the top, and is actually properly balanced, then when the noob players become better, they will reap the benefits of it being a balanced game. That's how Tru3 said it anyway.
Except the most important benefit would be gone, since a game is either fun or competitive, but practically never both.
Sure, we could balance this game around the top, and sure, people could get to that level. But the pure sweat playstyles that that demands is going to ruin playability all the way down the ladder.
'Competitive' and 'Fun' are antithetical when it comes to balancing.
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@Hex_Ignored said:
TLDR "I want deathslinger to be a worse huntress (aka trickster)"
Deathslinger would still have some advantages over her, such as not needing a locker to reload, and not having to prep his weapon.
The reason Trickster is worse is because he has the slowest TTK of the two, is most vulnerable to LoS blockers, takes way longer than Deathslinger to prep and stow his weapon and has way smaller hitboxes than Huntress.
It's basically the worst of Deathslinger and Huntress combined into one.
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@Saltjar34 said:
I think I saw a thread with the same idea except for Twins. Would be nice to be able to control both at once
That would probably be too strong, since both are capable of damaging targets, and the two of them out at the same time would probably wreck just about anything due to the sheer amount of pressure put out.
But it would be nice to have a half-and-half killer, where the main player is simply a 115% M1 striker, but the co-op partner has utility powers. Like a ghost, unable to directly harm survivors, but able to block windows, pallets, incapacitate survivors and set off loud noise notifications.
Off the top of my head...
THE MOURNER
Requires two players to play.
Movespeed: 115%
Power: The ghost of your beloved roams the map in the form of THE POLTERGEIST.
THE POLTERGEIST
Movespeed: 130%
Power: Press CTRL to go invisible, lowering movespeed to 110%. When uncloaking, set off a loud noise notification, terrifying nearby survivors, interrupting their actions.
Activating the power button allows you to seal a window, hold a pallet, or seal a locker for 3 seconds. 20 second cooldown.
The Poltergeist can not injure survivors.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
I also have a hard time hitting the last few. They're practically overcharge-level small and I never hit those.
That's the only issue I have with this new system, the last checks are too small and really hard to hit. Just slow the size decrease a little or put a cap on it.
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@WormMilk said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2255632#Comment_2255632
Well no dip if every killer in the whole game played the same strategy it would get boring. And you can look for the hex while doing gens. Shocker I know right!? Also back on to what you were saying about "stoping the timer while the killer is near" what if a survivor was hiding by the hook and the killer KNEW that they were hiding but couldn't do anything about it because people got mad abt camping. And ofc I'm gonna say it's an easy strategy to counter because it is. There's nothing wrong with having trouble with some strategys but when you make it everyone's problem it gets annoying. "Literally every counterargument against camping comes down to 'just make the game worse'." Yes it does, so I have no idea why your trying to change the game to get rid of a very valid strategy.
And you can look for the hex while doing gens.
Locate NOED while doing gens?
You do know how NOED works, right?
Also back on to what you were saying about "stoping the timer while the killer is near" what if a survivor was hiding by the hook and the killer KNEW that they were hiding but couldn't do anything about it
It's the same concept as 'what if the killer gets looped around the hook?'.
If you get looped that long, or if you spend that much time trying to find a hidden survivor and failing, do you really deserve to win? This is a really killer-centric viewpoint where you believe a killer should have an inalienable right to prevent an unhook, even if the survivor they're facing is outplaying them.
EDIT: Also, if a survivor can keep the killer busy for that long, then them doing it near the hook is beneficial to the killer, because then there's one chump on the hook that's not doing anything, as opposed to the killer being run around elsewhere and all three other survivors being active.
And ofc I'm gonna say it's an easy strategy to counter because it is.
That's missing the point.
@tolore said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2255632#Comment_2255632
So i think the big disconnect here, is that for killers, every solution to camping survivors seem to favor is "make the game worse". NONE of these threads that get popular have solutions that won't hit legitimate non face camping killers, and none of them have solutions for new/bad killers. You have to think like a game dev, you can't just say "let's make the struggle time longer if the killer is near" "ok that's a good point if ANOTHER survivor is in terror radius, or a chase is happening let the meter still go down" "oh okay, if there's a gen close to the hook the killer is protecting let the struggle time still decrease also" etc... by the time you've hit all the abuse cases you have an incredibly complicated rule set for what can be done near hooks. Now you have to MESSAGE this ruleset to players well enough that new players to your game can understand it. Complicated rule set with bad messaging isn't going to stop new killers from face camping, they aren't going to know what they're doing is wrong. Then even experienced killers you need to tell them WHEN what they are doing is increasing hook slow down, but then that's new information too, what if they know X of the cases where they are allowed to be hooked aren't true, and only 1 could be, so now suddenly the killer is alerted to the presence of a close by survivor or something. None of this even mentions the fact that the solution DOESN'T EVEN STOP A TRUE TOXIC FACE CAMPER, unless survivors feel like "spend even longer on first hook then maybe escape in end game collapse if my team mates are altruistic and have BT" is better than "die on first hook"
I'm picking on the solution because, despite it being tried twice and removed for not working, it's a bad suggestion. All the survivor suggestions come at it from the realm of "make camping literally impossible or PUNISH THE TOXIC SCUM WHO DARE COME NEAR A HOOK SO HARD THEY WOULDN'T DARE". I'm sorry to say those solutions aren't going to work, you have to retain player agency, you can't make the system so convoluted no one(or especially new players) understands exactly what is happening around the hooked player. You HAVE to accept that camping will always be POSSIBLE, the solution to the problem is to build the game in such a way that it's not the best move often, and when it's NOT the best move that the killer A. knows it's not the best move and B. knows enough to try a better move.
So far, the idea hasn't been very complex. Slow the hook progression if the killer is too close to the hook, unless the killer is in a chase or the fifth gen is done. Shouldn't be too hard to signify either, we have a UI element for the hookstate progression that's visible to both survivor and killers, you can plant the info there.
And it's not like there's no other unexplained game mechanisms. Bloodlust was never declared in the tutorial, neither is the co-op repair speed penalty. Which is confusing marked with a fast forward icon.
DOESN'T EVEN STOP A TRUE TOXIC FACE CAMPER
Here's the thing: Solo play exists. Without coordination and communication, it's actually not unlikely for camping to be effective because the timing is way more narrow than people like to pass it off as. Most campers still secure more than one kill because you can't communicate to teammates that they need to split off onto other gens and rush it out. Even if everyone knows how to handle camping, if they're not fast enough on figuring out that the killer is camping, that's an extra kill. If they don't know about co-op penalties, that's an extra kill. And if the hooked survivor is dead before the fifth gen is done, that could even be a 3-gen due to reckless genrushing.
People are saying it's very easy to counter, and on an individual level it is. But every single teammate needs to know this too and even then there's some pitfalls that can cost you too much time.
Yes, there's toxic facecampers that will never be dissuaded. But there's also plenty of campers that do it because, down the line, there's a big bracket of ranks where it is an effective strategy.
And this also ignores the other aspects of the game that are held in a stranglehold by camping, as mentioned before. Can't slow down gen speeds as long as camping is a thing, after all.
@Marik13 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2256953#Comment_2256953
What some of these people don't understand, and you nailed it on the head, is that where there is a will, there is a way. Toxic players will continue to be toxic just for the sake of it, regardless of what the rules say. Meanwhile when camping is actually needed, for instance during the EGC and the killer is trying to secure their first and what could be their only kill in the game near the end and not trying to be toxic, you're then punishing them for trying to complete their one and only objective which is to kill.
Camping is an annoying strategy, yes I agree. Anyone who has played any kind of online PvP game has experienced this in one form or another. But again sometimes it is a strategy that needs to be used. Snipers in FPS games for instance, are some of the most frustrating people to face against, especially if they're really good at calling their shots. But it's the strategy that best suits them. Running and gunning with a sniper rifle in most games isn't really the most optimal thing you can do 9.9/10 times. But like in DBD, in those games it's something that they are able to do that are within the confines of the rules. It's not hacking, it's not cheating, it's not exploiting a bug that breaks the game, it's a tool that is available equally for all players to utilize if they choose to use it. You can't really put a ban on something like that.
it's a tool that is available equally for all players to utilize if they choose to use it.
That is not an argument that holds water in regards to balance or gameplay design, as it would've allowed old DS as well.
Again, if all killers were to start camping, the game would be dead within a week.
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@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2255632#Comment_2255632
You can cleanse the NOED totem after the totem is lit.
If you know where it is. But you weren't scouting for it, since you have to genrush to punish camping.
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@WormMilk said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2253691#Comment_2253691
All development of the game that is POINTLESS because it's trying to get rid of a strategy that's SO easy to counter should cease. Your mad because you lost to a camper even though that is one if the EASIEST strategies to bypass. Maybe instead of complaining on the forums go make an anti camp build or practice your looping or just ANYTHING useful to your problem. The chances of camping ever being removed are extremely slim and im sure you know it too so I have no idea why your even complaining about it.
Do you know how inconsistent these standpoints are?
Killer brings NOED: 'just stop genrushing and do totems'
Killer camps: 'just genrush'
So what if the killer has both, then? Not to mention how much killers (rightfully) hate genrushing, but hey, I guess it's all fine and dandy because for some godforsaken reason, we need to do our utmost to protect what is the absolute worst thing about this game.
'Just bring an anticamp build!'
'Why do survivors always bring the same loadout? I'm sick of seeing UB, BT, DS all the time!'
Literally every counterargument against camping comes down to 'just make the game worse'.
And, again, you know that problem with gen speeds being too fast? Can't be addressed as long as camping exists.
You put the blinders on, call it 'easy to counter', you refuse to look at anything else. You don't care about the overall impact on the rest of the game, you don't care about its impact on how enjoyable the game is.
Again, if every killer camped, this game would die in under a week. No matter how easy it is to counter.
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@WormMilk said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2251027#Comment_2251027
Dude I'll be in chase with the killer and randomly get escape points even tho I'm still in chase. Survivors WILL find a way to abuse it. They always do.
Okay, but then all development of the game should cease, because 'survivors will just abuse it'.
Just digging in your heels and refusing to fix anything just because it's tricky is pointless.
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@TheClownIsKing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2252691#Comment_2252691
Built To Last outshines Streetwise though (except in coop scenarios).
Take a brown med kit for example, no add ons.
Streetwise extends those 16 charges to 20. Built To Last extends it to 24 charges (albeit a brief 10 second wait to get those 8 additional charges)
True, but if there's more than one item in use, Streetwise starts to overtake Built to Last.
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If it could help fix broken, it would already immediately gain synergy with Deliverance, Second Wind, and most importantly, For the People.
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@bm33 said:
I had a match where I cleansed 4 totems but killer had NOED. Killer downed someone as soon as last gen was completed. When I found the last totem it was right next to the gen that player had completed by themself at the start of the match (myself and other two were across the map at the time). That player died on first hook during the end of the match because they didn't cleanse that one dull totem and by time I found and cleansed that totem there wasn't much time left to save them.
The other survivor had no way of knowing the other four totems were down though, unless they were running small game or on comms with you.
This is why the totem counter should've been baseline.