Firellius
Firellius
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I thought it allowed you to select what map you want to play, anyway?
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Flashbang is a pretty underwhelming perk due to how hard it is to use, and the fact that it takes up your perk AND item slot, so I do wish it did a little more. Either it needs some better consistency or it needs better reward, IMO, like slowing the killer by 10-20% for 2 seconds if they get blinded by it.
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@BenihimeWrath said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2408844#Comment_2408844
I did report it as a bug, but the rest of your post you basically just described all perks really. Most of them aren't powerful enough to do much on their own and they need builds around them to make them shine. I think arguably the best generic survivor build is Iron Will, Spine Chill, Windows of Opportunity, and Borrowed Time.
And before anyone asks about WoO its because it allows you to see the resources still available throughout the match, which allows you to make the correct pathing decisions always, which will save you as much as any exhaustion perk. If correct pathing and WoO can't save you the only possible exhaustion perk that could've would be a 99'd Sprint Burst.
I disagree with you on that. There's quite a few survivor perks that don't require any build around them to put out consistent and decent value. Something like Botany Knowledge doesn't require the support of any other perks to be noticeably useful, it just synergises well with things like Self-Care, Solidarity and more. Similarly, Spine Chill is good in and of itself, it just synergises well with Fixated, and vice versa.
Solidarity, Resurgence and Deliverance is more a single effect on three perk slots, similar to how Flip-Flop and Power Struggle don't really offer adequate value separate from one another.
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@milwaukee354 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2385307#Comment_2385307
I can escape her dash what i can't escape is a trap that requires you to use all five boxes, I've had all gameplays but one where I would go through 4 traps and still die, your first trap shouldn't require all five boxes, I think it should be first trap one, second trap 3 and 3 trap four or five, to me that's reasonable
That wouldn't really work, since she only gets to place four traps. If she were to trap all survivors once, that'd make them almost negligible.
I think all traps for the Pig should require 2 or 3 boxes to open, or 3 or 4 with the add-on for the extra box. Players should just not die to RNG.
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@BenihimeWrath said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2408552#Comment_2408552
I mean you can call them 'meh' but the effect is a pretty hard swing in momentum. Furthermore if it is intended I don't really care about that, what I care about is the broken status being removed. The status should persist even if managing to get full HP, enabling a killer to take advantage of the choice to use deliverance even if it takes hitting them again. (e.g. similar to a form of BT)
That is a fair point, broken should persist for its full duration, even if the survivor circumvented it and managed to get healed up. Definitely report that as a bug.
The point about these perks being 'meh' is that, outside of this niche scenario which can swing it in momentum, they're not that good. It's basically a potentially strong but -very- circumstantial effect taking up three perk slots to fire. I think that's a fair trade-off from the killer's perspective, because there's plenty of other perks that could've gone in those three slots that would've given the survivor more to work with, such as Spine Chill, Prove Thyself, Botany Knowledge and more.
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@Moonatique said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2408363#Comment_2408363
I really don't get what point you're making to make here. Yes you outspeed her in terms of m/s but she has blinks to catch you. If that's what you were trying to say.
I think their point is that the Nurse is one of about three characters that can be outplayed in a dead zone. All others will just hold W and smack you, but there's a couple of powers that can be juked, even if there's no window or pallet anywhere nearby.
Granted, a god-Nurse will demolish you in open areas, but anything below that can be psyched out.
I have to say, Nurse is pretty fun to go against unless it's god-Nurse. They're super rewarding to play against, and any outplay creates a ton of space and even a possible chase-drop. It's super fun to think outside the box and try to trick the killer, like rounding a corner and then stopping on the spot to bait the Nurse into trying to cut you off.
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@Lord_Tony said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2408579#Comment_2408579
well it's too fast in the first 3 minutes
Slowing it down in the first three minutes would still make camping way too strong.
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@Bwsted said:
It's definitely a bug. You should report it in the dedicated section.
Although, before everybody gets up in arms, it's not gamebreaking. Very situational and worse than running stronger combos.
Maybe it's one of those bugs that'll get turned into a feature, like they considered with Stake-out.
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Because if they were any slower, camping would be an overpowered strategy.
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That sounds like a really bad bug.
Or were you teaming up with the disconnecter? If anyone in your party has a matchmaking ban, the party can't play until it resolves.
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If it's not, it should be. Survivors can always use some extra build options, and it's not like Deliverance is even halfway decent with how conditional it is. He's stacked three 'meh' perks together for a fun, but still conditional effect, so I see no problem here.
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@Power_Guy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2407608#Comment_2407608
But being hooked is part of the game. Survivors saying 'I'm not playing when I'm hooked' does not mean they are not playing.
They are just not playing AND WINNING. They don't consider being hooked 'playing' because they are losing when it happens. Again; it boils down to Survivors whining that Killers trying to kill them is a flaw.
Literally no one is complaining about being hooked.
But there's three hook states. There's four survivors. A killer that facecamps reduces gameplay to skillchecks, with an additional holding M1 for everyone that isn't the camping target.
No stealth play, no chases, no totem hunting, no looking for items, no lingering dread wondering where the killer might be, no helping other survivors...
Imagine if the game were changed so that the moment any survivor is put on the hook, the game just launches into a two minute cutscene, after which the hooked survivor dies, and the others escape. Match closes.
Just being stuck there in a two minute cutscene where nothing happens.
Would you want to play that? Either side?
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
Can we all agree that Nemesis is a weaker Demogorgon in every aspect? Zombies are the only things that are different between them and they're still not as good as Portals
Not really. Portals are way worse for intel (If the zombie AI works), Demo has no passive pressure, and Nemesis' power is faster.
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@Power_Guy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2406538#Comment_2406538
Rofl. Your view is invalidated by saying that Survivors get to decide how their opponent kills them.
In an FPS, does my opponent get to decide which gun I use?
In an RTS, does my opponent get to decide which race I use?
In a MOBA, does my opponent get to decide which character I use? Or when I use my power?
No, no, no, and no.
And camping is not equivalent to hacking. Sorry. All your post reads as is someone trying so very hard to invent some excuse as to why they're right and camping is evil and Survivors are victims and Killers need to be screwed by game mechanics.
Camping is fine. It's Survivors being unable to take a loss that are the problem.
Did you read anything or did you just go 'Only killers matter' again?
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I think they're just always flashing too early. The timing's tricky and there's a ton of people who mistime it.
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@Power_Guy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2405543#Comment_2405543
Rofl. And there's your mindset 'Agree with me, or you're the problem'.
Guess what? CAMPING. IS. ALLOWED. 😨
You not liking it does not make it 'toxic' and does not mean it has to need a punishment. The Killer's goal is TO KILL YOU. Gasp! How dare he! 😱 The Killer is evil if he removes Survivors from the game, for Survivors are the elite upper class!
Yet Survivors think they deserve to tell the Killer how and when he can kill. Can't get much more entitled than that! 😂 If Killers don't ask permission to kill, they're 'toxic' and whatever new word Survivors invent tomorrow to pretend it's not about them losing, when it's all about them losing.
Hey, remember ye olde moris? They were removed because they did exactly what you describe.
It's almost like the game is designed around survivors having three hookstates instead of only one.
Yet Survivors think they deserve to tell the Killer how and when he can kill.
Okay, hot take: They actually ######### do. This isn't player vs. AI, this is player vs. player. This is a -game-. Those survivors are there for your entertainment, but you are equally there for theirs. Or rather, you're supposed to be.
Your job isn't to 'kill survivors, any means necessary', your job is to kill survivors within a set of limitations oriented at making the game fun. We throw the whole concept of fun and fairness out the window, you might as well hack the game to immediately put all survivors on hooks at the start of the game. That'd be 'the killer doing his job', wouldn't it?
You whine about survivor entitlement, you whine about people acting like survivors are the elite class, but you refuse to consider anything other than the killer's victory, not even their own enjoyment of the game.
Yes, facecamping is toxic. It's exploiting a weakness in the game's design in an effort to suck the fun out of it. You wanna be that 'competitive', there's another game you can play.
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I disagree. I'd say he's a pretty solid killer overall, I'd rate him at, probably, about an A.
I'm not sure what you mean with 'gets punished for using his power'. If you're talking about the injury dash when first infecting someone, it's a bit of a trade-off. Either you become really difficult to loop against, or the survivor has to give up some of the time they won to use a vaccine. In the long run, I don't think the infection speed boost is actually all that relevant.
I have little trouble building up mutation, though to be fair, rank 2 is where all the value lies and rank 3 isn't all that important. I need to remind myself to go to rank 3 sometimes for a challenge, otherwise I end up forgetting. I do wish that tentacle hits on infected survivors would grant a bit of progress though, that'd be fair, I think.
I really don't mind his add-ons. I don't think he needs much power in his add-ons, I think his basekit is pretty solid all around, so having strong add-ons on top of that might push him to be OP.
His tentacle has been pretty reliable to me, but yes, his biggest issue is zombie AI having some... Problems.
Nemesis's Tentacle also sucks because it can't hit over most loops (MOST) and has a very small hitbox (easy to dodge). There are SOME exceptions, but for the most part, you're [BAD WORD] out of luck. His tentacle also doesn't reach very far even at tier 3 (6 meters). That's slightly longer than a Tier 3 Myers lunge. Except Myers doesn't need to spend the whole game stalking to reach tier 3 once, doesn't need to hit survivors 3 times, and doesn't give the survivors a speed boost for using his power. See why he's so weak now? Also side note: Nemesis can't correct his tentacle strike last second like huntress. Another downside.
If Nemesis could smack over loops, I think he'd be way too oppressive. He's already really tough to pallet or vault against due to the risk of getting smacked. If he could go through walls and obstacles with it, he'd just be a flat out better Pyramid Head.
The reason he can't adjust his tentacle 'last second' like Huntress is because there's almost no delay when firing the tentacle. You aim, you click, it fires almost instantly, whereas the huntress winds up a little bit. You can absolutely make snap tentacle shots and I made one teabagger ragequit when I caught her dodge with a snap turn. Also, the hitbox does linger for a split second, during which you can strafe to adjust the direction. If he could turn during this time, you could make a wide sweep and basically never miss.
Zombies are also inconsistent. Some games they're good, some games they're bad. I don't really care about the zombies, that's not what Nemmy's strength should be anyway.
This is really the only big problem Nemesis has. I've been lucky enough to not have tree-hugger zombies, so they've been very helpful to me. You should care more about the zombies when playing as Nemesis, because those grubby little hands stretching out will give you some valuable intel. I've tracked many a survivor simply by relying on the zombies' detection ranges. They're not super accurate, but they will alert you to a general presence.
And then there's the occasional MLG pro-strat zombie that just smacks a survivor mid-chase.
I think the zombies just need their AI fixed so they don't nav into the middle of whatever obstacle they can find, effectively freezing them indefinitely.
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@gilgamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2404859#Comment_2404859
I'm not saying gens should be slowdowned I think the gen speed in the game currently is fine after all just holding m1 on a gen is one of the most boring things in the game hence why I think most maps in the game should be about coal tower size. Also you know what else counters camping, not getting downed in the first place or at least dragging out the first chase for as long as possible then your team has plenty of extra time to work on gens even if the killer decides to camp you from stage 1 till death.
Not too mention all the perks in the game that punish camping and tunneling.
There's BT and DS, that's it, that's 'All the perks that punish camping and tunnelling'.
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@gilgamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2404620#Comment_2404620
No killer enjoys being genrushed yet you say its a mandatory existence due to camping even though camping is easily countered and genrushing has been the meta strat since the games inception.
Yeah, camping is easily countered -by what-?
Genrushing.
Literally not doing anything else but min-max the gens to get as much work done for the 120 seconds that the killer is camping and praying that you get out before he's done and/or that he doesn't have NOED.
Gens can't be slowed down in any capacity until camping has a baseline countermeasure. As I said, you'd shift the meta a bit if solo gen speeds were slower than co-op gen speeds to make sure that the safest option for doing gens isn't also the fastest one. But that would require a camping nerf, because otherwise camping will guarantee a 2K or better.
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@gilgamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2404583#Comment_2404583
I mean I guess but like still doesn't mean the game should be balanced around campers.
It kind of does, because any changes made that benefit camping would increase the number of campers, and since no one enjoys a trial with camping in it, that'd kill the game off.
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@gilgamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2404562#Comment_2404562
Would it? Killers who camp don't really move around much and if they are thats not camping, proxying maybe but that's a different issue since killers like twins can proxy from across the map.
Id argue that maps like coal tower are the most balanced map in the game with it being small but also dense allowing for looping but still having a decent amount of tiles and loops while still keeping the map fairly small.
It'll take less time for the killer to move from target to target, so the survivors likely have less time before the first down. That leaves more work to be done in the same amount of hang time, and if they don't get it all done in the first hook, the killer has an easier time finding a second target, or using NOED to slug for the 4k.
Everything that makes things easier on the killer makes things easier on the campers.
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@gilgamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2404510#Comment_2404510
Smaller maps would help with gen rushing a ton.
That'd still buff camping too, though.
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@DelsKibara said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2397306#Comment_2397306
I still cannot believe anyone thinks this is in ANYWAY a good system or that the devs should be excused for it.
That includes you. No one should be punished for what felt like a clean shot. Like this one from @Ruma
This is just absolutely ridiculous. Are you seriously expecting the Killer to time travel into the future to know when to actually use their power or attacks so it looks "right" on the Survivor screen?
Actually, that particular shot doesn't even look like it landed, killer side. The hit fx doesn't touch the survivor on Huntress' side, imagine what it looked like for the survivor.
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@Clevernamegoeshere67 said:
I'd rather see a game mode where they role the perks and add-ons at random. That way no one knows what they are going to get and can't plan.
That'd get practically no survivor players, since there's a crapton of survivor perks with next to no applicable value.
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@gilgamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2404492#Comment_2404492
Gen rushing beats literally any playstyle though not just genrsuhing.
And nothing can be done about it, because any slowdowns would push camping from a guaranteed 1k to a 2k or worse.
I had an idea to slow down solo gen speeds and speed up co-op gen speeds to compensate, to where co-op gens go faster than solo. This would make it easier for the killer to apply pressure and increases the value of them hooking someone, as it removes that survivor's co-op bonus as well. I think it'd greatly reduce the stress and pressure on killers, while improving strategic variety for survivors: go safe and slow by splitting up, or be fast and risky by grouping up.
However, this idea can't be implemented unless camping is crippled, since it would all but guarantee that camping would grant a 2k or worse.
Camping is locking up the entire game.
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@DaWeezerd said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2400987#Comment_2400987
Doesn't matter what year they took place, the developers have stated they won't try to punish camping with mechanics after those 2 failed attempts they instead are making perks to incentivize not camping and going after people who aren't hooked yet.
It does matter what year they took place. Five years' worth of patching has drastically altered the game, so an experiment ran that long ago doesn't represent the current state of the game.
@gilgamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2398974#Comment_2398974
Well to start people have been re-suggesting this idea for a long time now and seeing it every 2-3 weeks is tiring and annoying since people have to go through the same song and dance of "this was tries already and it was abused horribly" "how was it abused?" *insert explanation* also if the devs have been changing what the meta is then why has the meta for the game been almost exactly the same for 4 years, you split up do gens run killers away from gens in the progress of being worked on and play hyper safe until all 5 gens are done. The methods that you achieve this meta have altered slightly mostly just because of ways to achieve this have been nerfed over the years. No perk or system nerf/buff has changed this survivor meta since the game came out.
That's because the general survivor meta has been predicated mostly on three perks that all revolve around making the game playable against a killer that tries to prevent you from playing.
The meta won't change, because it can't. Genrushing is a requirement as long as camping exists.
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@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2401034#Comment_2401034
It is expecting free unhooks. Complaints about camping wouldn't exist if there wasn't entitlement to the rescue.
Guess that's why there's so many complaints about a killer spotting a survivor going in for the rescue while they're not camping.
Oh wait.
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@Crowman said:
Camping doesn't need to be prevented. Survivors just need to stop expecting unhooks to be free.
Survivors unhooking their friends doesn't need to be prevented. Killers just need to stop expecting kills to be free.
@Alionis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2400490#Comment_2400490
- No, because after two horribly failed attempts, the devs stated that they would no longer attempt to punish camping with mechanics. What they would do is provide incentives to leave (BBQ, MYC, etc.)
- I was there, been playing since Summer 2016. The description of events by @ReikoMori are the most accurate to what I myself experienced during the tests.
So there were two attempts? Both in 2016?
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@LuckyLucy1999 said:
Are BHR going to make BBQ base kit for killers? I mean they might as well seeing 99% of killers I come across use it.
Obviously I don't really want it made base kit, but it is just stale always playing against killers who have the exact same perks on most of the time. Just having a killer know exactly where you are as soon as they stick someone on a hook is annoying. And yes I do hide in cupboard once I know they have it on.
Says a lot about the balancing of perks in this game if there perks that "must take" perks. I don't really know what they could do with the perk really but I wish they would go over the "must have" perks and think of fairer uses for them.
BBQ isn't a 'must take' by its in-trial effect. The effect itself is just solid enough to contend for a spot. BBQ becomes a 'must take' simply because of the BP booster tacked onto it. -That- is something that needs to be reconsidered to be more broadly applicable.
One thing that came to my mind in a discussion with friends about how to make survivors unique is to have every survivor get bonus BP in a configuration that's unique to the survivor. For example, Claudette getting 75% bonus BP for the Altruism category. Felix getting 25% bonus in Altruism, and 50% in Objective. David getting 50% in Boldness, 25% in Altruism. Bill getting 75% in Survival.
Perhaps something similar could be done for killers.
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Okay, before this discussion continues, two questions. Because we've now got three people with conflicting stories about how the attempt went down.
- Was there any other attempt at anti-camp beside the one in 2016?
- Who was actually there for these attempts?
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@Power_Guy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2399271#Comment_2399271
JFC. People like you ignore anything you don't like. All you can see is 'Camp gone; all good!' and ignore everything else.
Imagine you need this kill to snowball. 3 gens popped in your first chase. 2 gens left. You hook someone.
Now 2 Survivors are near the hooked Survivor. If you leave; they will unhook him and go do gens while you chase someone who will take another 120 seconds to down because they are healthy.
If you stay; the person on the hook is now no longer able to die, or the timer is slowed, giving the Survivor on gens infinite or near-infinite time to do gens. There goes your pressure from hooking someone!
It's not rocket science, yet entitled Survivors think 'It punishes camping; iz gud!' and ignore every single flaw with the idea, because they don't care about the Killer's gameplay. All they think is 'Killer is punished, I get free unhooks; There is nothing wrong with this! 🤪'
All you can see is 'Chasing is good, therefor not chasing is forever bad'. And you're ignoring when the Killer needs to kill someone to start applying pressure.
These facts are not open for debate.:
The idea is terrible. It would be abused. It WAS abused. You not understanding how it was abused means literally nothing. And you ignoring the flaws does not mean they don't exist or are somehow minimal.
If you stay; the person on the hook is now no longer able to die, or the timer is slowed, giving the Survivor on gens infinite or near-infinite time to do gens. There goes your pressure from hooking someone!
And you think you get pressure from not actually going after any survivor on any of the gens? You're just gonna stand there for 120 seconds while the other survivors are just gonna finish their gens?
With or without anti-camp, you lose the match that way, because you are giving survivors full freedom to do whatever they want while you wait for your first hook to bleed out. You're going to have to chase a survivor anyway, so you might as well take advantage when two survivors are showing themselves to you. Hell, you even get extra time, because they should've all three been working on a gen to cut down how much time you, as killer, have left, but they instead chose to pull off a perfectly coordinated gambit that costs them way more time.
Seriously, consider the situation if the survivors -weren't- 'abusing the system', and only one guy stealths his way over as would be the standard, while the other two finish the last two gens.
Your problem in the situation described is, legitimately, that you can't just camp your first hook to death, because the 'abuse' puts the survivors in a worse position, actively benefitting the killer.
It WAS abused. You not understanding how it was abused means literally nothing. And you ignoring the flaws does not mean they don't exist or are somehow minimal.
It doesn't matter to you because you WANT camping to be a thing. I, and a great many others, want it gone, so we're constantly looking for a solution. Understanding exactly how it was abused is quite relevant.
Case in point: @NoOneKnowsNova mentions someone looping around a hook to abuse the frozen timer. But from what I could see on the wiki, this anti-camp timer was tested in 2016, long before Bloodlust was a thing, and chases could last longer. Would it really hold up now, when chases are much more limited with vaults getting blocked and killers speeding up if the chase lasts too long?
You dismiss the entire thing off-hand for an experiment that ran FIVE years' worth of patches ago.
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@Power_Guy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2399183#Comment_2399183
It's a 'lose/lose' because the Killer is FORCED into making a bad choice when camping may be the thing that turns the game around for him. Securing that kill may be needed to start that snowball rolling.
I don't get why people can't understand this.
Oh right, sorry, I forgot that an anti-camping measure shouldn't prevent camping.
How is it a bad choice to chase a survivor? What if neither survivor shows up to the hook and instead do gens, wouldn't that be a way worse situation for the killer than the 'abuse'?
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@Power_Guy said:
Here's how it was abused:
Back when the Struggle Meter was slowed/stopped if a Killer 'camped':
Survivor #1 does gens.
#2 and #3 go to the hook. They stand in opposite directions, so the Killer cannot threaten them both. They ALSO stand so far away that a chase cannot start.
If Killer goes after #2, #2 backs up to prevent a chase from starting. #3 goes towards the hook.
Same if you flip who he goes after.
If Killer resets; Survivors reset. Killer has not started a chase yet (due to distance) so the game penalizes him for 'camping'.
Now, the Killer's choice to to 'camp' & eat the punishment (even though HE IS NOT CAMPING because 2 Survivors are visibly there there) or chase one, and give the other a free unhook.
This is why the old punishment was removed; it basically forced the Killer, the supposed 'power role' into a lose/lose situation that Survivors could abuse EVERY TIME the first person was hooked. It was quickly removed.
It's only a 'lose/lose' situation if you considering going into a chase a 'loss'. But at that point, why bother playing killer at all, with or without anti-camp?
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@NoOneKnowsNova said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2398872#Comment_2398872
Make the killer chase you near the hooked survivor to trigger this time to stop the progress on the hooked survivor.
The killer either chased the survivor causing the other two survivors to pump gens at no risk or had to let the survivor get a free unhook which causes a loss of pressure.
I think the problem here is the fact that, somehow, that survivor is giving the killer the infinite run-around, not that the timer doesn't tick down.
Which would make the killer lose no matter what. Only difference is that now he doesn't get a kill off of failing to catch a survivor. Seriously, if this apparently god-tier survivor can loop the killer indefinitely, why wouldn't they do it somewhere -other- than the hook so that there's three teammates on gens instead of two on gens and one on hook?
EDIT: Was this, perhaps, before anti-infinite patching and/or bloodlust?
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I don't think this would be particularly helpful. Knowing where a survivor was a minute ago isn't particularly valuable information, and I think at that point, you'd be better off just patrolling gens.
I do like the idea of footprints though. Perhaps predator can replace scratch marks with foot prints that better indicate the survivor's direction, as opposed to scratch marks, which simply indicate where the survivor has been.
EDIT: Also, if the footprints don't fade, eventually there'll be such a jumble of them that they become unreadable, too.
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@Vulgun said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2397513#Comment_2397513
Well, well, well. Didn't think anyone would've gotten it.
Alright, as per my word, I'll finally explain why I changed it to be what it is in greater detail than I had.
============================================================================================================
Decisive Strike has been a meta perk for far too long and has gotten nerf after nerf, but still remained far too viable a perk to not run. What I desired to do was to change the perk to be an option, but no longer the option to use against Killers.
If a Killer player makes a good guess against you or your team, they should be rewarded, not punished. That's how a game should go in general; someone did the work in order to achieve their success, they should be rewarded. Doing the opposite is antithetical to good multiplayer game design.
Should the Killer have guessed you were using Deliverance and you unhook at the wrong time, you should end up back on the hook, no matter what the situation is. You decided to self-unhook at the time the Killer was paying very close attention, you should be punished for making a bad play. You should never, ever be rewarded for making a bad play.
Another reason as to why I made the changes to Decisive Strike is because the perk has seen overuse ever since it was introduced. Even now, people still use it to an incredible frequency, and it's time that perk gets its just dues. May I have gone overboard with some of the changes? Sure, I can admit that, and I can easily fix that thanks to the feedback I've gotten.
But, there are some justifications to some of my changes that are at least understandable:
- The Locker Deactivation Method: Due to there being many perks that affect lockers, including one that grants you the ability to craft an item, one that can stun the Killer and one that can heal yourself back to full, it stands to reason that going into a locker should deactivate Decisive Strike outright. If you cannot heal yourself with a Med-Kit, you should not circumvent this with a Perk whatsoever, so, let's cut the middle man out instead.
- The Self-Unhook Deactivation Method: Like I've explained before, if the Killer made a good play, they should be rewarded. You made the mistake of using Deliverance or just self-unhooking at a time that they were attentive, you should be given the consequences. If you aren't running Deliverance, a Killer who made an extremely good read should be rewarded; that's how multiplayer games should be designed in the first place. Doing anything otherwise is bad design.
As for the other things, considering the rather hectic feedback of this thread, I've got a different idea for Decisive Strike that will completely change the Perk's functionality and utility. Since this thread has been fruitful for knowledge, I think the next thread I make about it (which will be soon, and I will link it) will be the "version 2", as it were.
And trust me, you'll probably like it more than even the current Decisive Strike we have.
If a Killer player makes a good guess against you or your team, they should be rewarded, not punished.
Here is the problem: You are only looking at this from the killer's perspective.
Flip the script: The survivor opted to bring a generally quite weak perk to the game because they guessed the killer would play like a total douchecanoe and hardline tunnel. I'm talking 'drop chase and hook-check the moment someone gets unhooked' tunnelling. They guessed correctly that you'd be so focused on cancelling out that one survivor at maximum speed, but they don't get to be rewarded?
Even worse with the Deliverance/DS combo, where they rightly guessed that they would get a safe unhook before they themselves were hooked, AND that the killer would tunnel like a mole on cocaine. And they dumped TWO perk slots for this, but in your opinion, the killer should just be able to double back to hook and undo both perks 'because he heard the loud noise notification'.
Hard, VERY HARD no.
And trust me, you'll probably like it more than even the current Decisive Strike we have.
Considering you thought completely removing one of the most niche anti-tunnel synergies was a good idea, I have my doubts.
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@Dream_Whisper said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2397775#Comment_2397775
Wrong; Minor Nerf to Survivors, since they have the power 4v1 advantage and map layout design and their skills in looping and hiding and holding W; and they can really gives killers the ability to very effectively maximize Bloodpoints gain though hooking, by giving them decent powers or more time to achieve these goals!
That's not what you wrote though. Aside from nerfing the few perks that are good in order to set a new balance standard that'll likely be just below viability, you also want whatever perks remain to no longer be available to all survivors, further decreasing survivor power.
Then you also want to buff killers on top of that so that 'good players can get a 3K or 4K'. They already can. The problem is that the survivors' skill also matters, and if your baseline target is 'good killers always get 3+ kills', your goal is to nerf survivors so that their skill no longer matters.
Worst part is that most meta perks aren't even good; Theyre mostly band-aid fixes for the kind of killer playstyles that make games absolutely garbage to play.
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So in short: Sledgehammer nerf to survivors, buff killers. Gotcha.
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@Vulgun said:
No one? No one's going to take a guess at the subtle change?
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2397334#Comment_2397334
In its current state where you can have up to all four Survivors running Decisive Strike at once, it makes playing Killer too frustrating.
Also, there's a lot of already-good anti-tunnel perks in this game. Survivors should just run them instead (not like Unbreakable, BT, Soul Guard or Deliverance exist or anything and aren't already run; let's totally ignore the fact this game has too many anti-tunnel perks already and instead say that just getting rid of ONE of the many anti-tunnel perks is just bad; give me a break and cry me a river).
In its current state where you can have up to all four Survivors running Decisive Strike at once, it makes playing Killer too frustrating.
Yeah, if you hard tunnel. You could just go for literally any other target than the one you just hooked.
Also, there's a lot of already-good anti-tunnel perks in this game. Survivors should just run them instead (not like Unbreakable, BT, Soul Guard or Deliverance exist or anything and aren't already run; let's totally ignore the fact this game has too many anti-tunnel perks already and instead say that just getting rid of ONE of the many anti-tunnel perks is just bad; give me a break and cry me a river).
Like what? DS is literally the only anti-tunnel perk. Unbreakable does nothing against tunnelling. BT does nothing against tunnelling. Soul Guard does nothing against tunnelling. Deliverance does nothing, period.
In case you are getting things really, really twisted, here's what Tunnelling means:
Exclusively targeting one specific player, typically right after they've been unhooked.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2396448#Comment_2396448
^ This.
And I agree, the Ghost Hit needs to go away, because Killers are not "robbed" of their Hits, they should not get those Hits in the first place.
AND Killers need to learn that they cannot swing at every Pallet and expect a Hit. However, I have little hope that the system stays if they complain as much as they do.
(Killers are complaining more about getting "robbed" by Hits in the past few days than Survivors getting hit through Pallets over the last years)
(Killers are complaining more about getting "robbed" by Hits in the past few days than Survivors getting hit through Pallets over the last years)
To be fair, at some point, you just learn to give up on the concept of a pallet stun and just eat the hit, because you at least get the full injury boost, as opposed to locking yourself in the drop animation, losing a health state, and also losing half the boost.
But yeah, to clarify: The pallet dropping on your face occurs a little earlier than you see it, due to your latency, so you don't 'get robbed of a hit', the hit was just less achievable than it looks on your end.
And if it bothers you that much, just play an anti-pallet killer like Nemesis or Pyramid Head.
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I'd be more interested in a 2-player killer, like Cho'Gall in Heroes of the Storm.
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@EvilJoshy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2395485#Comment_2395485
and the killer gets next to no bp, probably not even a safety. You can't put in a system that can distinguish between camping to be a dick and camping because it's beneficial to your objective. They tried and survivors abused it. So it was removed. If you hate camping so much either
- play with friends who are smart enough not to rush the hook.
- Continue to punish killers for face camping by already mentioned. Eventually that killer will get the message "This isn't working. better try something else"
- Last, the most effective way to make it so you never ever get camped. Play killer.
'Survivors abused it!'
Yeah, I heard that one before. They basically made things worse for themselves in order to force the killer not to camp.
And we can't have anti-camping measures make camping non-viable.
Also, you're not allowed to play with friends, forum killers whine about Swiffering all the time.
Nor are you allowed to genrush, forum killers whine about that too.
And playing killer is exactly what I've been doing. Doesn't change the fact that camping is hindering killers too. You know how people complain that gens go too fast for a 'fair' twelve hook play? Can't fix that when camping exists.
'You can't put in a system that can distinguish between camping to be a dick and camping because it's beneficial to your objective.'
Well according to camp-stans, there is no difference. And I can -still- see a solution: make the hook timer slow down based on the number of generators left to do. Without a base value, this'd deactivate itself when all five are done, and it scales proportional to the level of dickishness.
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@Power_Guy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2395096#Comment_2395096
People can disagree with me. And I never said 'Killers good, Survivors bad!' What drives me nuts is that I get told a million Survivor-invented rules I have to follow, or Survivors insult me in game. People on these very forums have said they blast the Killer if the Killer is 'toxic first', even if that 'toxic' action happens to be 'the Killer won'.
And then I come to the forums and find MORE Survivors trying to change the base mechanics of the game because they hate to lose, and those survivors call ME entitled. They want to change the game to ######### over Killers, but I'm entitled?
I can't abide hypocrisy, and that what these threads are; Survivors claiming tunneling and camping are evil things that should result in -32534378756 BP for the Killer (I have seen people suggest 'The Survivor gets the Killer's BP if he camps' before) but gen speeds and toolboxes and gen-stacking are fine.
It's hypocrisy, and I will point it out every time someone does it. Because Survivors want to alter how Killers play, because Killers are 'toxic', but ask those same Survivors 'Is twerking or clicky-clicky toxic?' and they will say 'no'. Because they are biased.
It's even in another thread, where someone says 'Slugging for the 4K is toxic' and 'You already have a 3K'. They are basically shaming a Killer for wanting a full win and acting like the Killer has to stop trying because it makes Survivors sad.
It's a filthy double standard.
I can't abide hypocrisy, and that what these threads are; Survivors claiming tunneling and camping are evil things that should result in -32534378756 BP for the Killer (I have seen people suggest 'The Survivor gets the Killer's BP if he camps' before) but gen speeds and toolboxes and gen-stacking are fine.
That hypocrisy is NOT coming from the survivor side, you absolute walnut. It's literally the first thing these forums will shout at you when you suggest camping is a problem.
'If you get camped, just genrush'
'Ok'
'OMG survivors are genrushing, that's such hypocrisy!'
Seriously, camping is the root problem for everything you whine about, but when -anyone- brings it up, you throw yourself into an absolute frenzy because you don't want to accept the fact that camping is unbelievably bad for the game.
@EvilJoshy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2394945#Comment_2394945
If someone is camping with noed then the gens would have to be complete for that to happen. Open the gate and leave. Problem solved.
That's EGC camping, and that's not a problem. The problem is a killer camping on first down, which leaves you with enough time to do either the gens or the totems, but likely not both. So if you take down all five totems, the killer gets to down someone else before gen 5 is done. If you finish all five gens, the killer then gets to have +4% movespeed and instadown and likely gets at least one other down, possibly more because they can just slug.
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Take Overcharge on slot 4. It's a fun perk.
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@EvilJoshy said:
Camping is a made up word survivors invented to have something to scream about when they lose. It is not a problem. The devs have stated it's a strategy and not reportable. Last it has plenty of counters. The issue is survivors don't want to counter it. Same as NOED. There is something you can do about it but people don't want too.
'Plenty of counters!'
Literally only counter is genrushing. And it's hilarious you mention NOED in the same post since that has the opposite, mutually exclusive counter, so if someone is camping with NOED, the whole thing just sort of eats itself.
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@Power_Guy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2394732#Comment_2394732
Rofl. Just because you dislike camping does not mean it needs to be a 'maybe 1, but nothing more' strat, dude.
Christ, the Survivor mains on this forum seem to be blessed with this invincible conviction that their made up rules need to be hard rules.
Fact: Camping is a strat. Camping is allowed.
Also fact: Survivors can't stand losing, and want to prevent Killers from winning, so they keep whining like children about how 'unfair' it is that they can be removed from the game.
Boo hoo. The fact that the Killer can kill comes as a surprise to NO ONE except whiny Survivors who think the game revolves around them.
Camping is fine. Reward the Survivor with 'Distraction' BP. End of story. Stop ######### whining.
I mean, it literally reduces the game to everyone doing nothing, but I suppose you can't stand the possibility of having to put in effort.
Since you can't do anything but demean others and call them 'whining' for what is obviously a glaring issue with the game, there's no point in this discussion going any further.
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@Power_Guy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2394593#Comment_2394593
If Survivors do gens; the Killer gets 1, MAYBE 2 kills anyways. But Survivors stop doing gens and camp the hook nearby, then whine and snivel and blubber that Killers are winning with an 'OP' tactic.
Survivors can literally punish camping, but decide the hook is more important, and demand the devs change the game to give them the unhook they want. That is entitlement. They think they are ENTITLED to every unhook they want.
The Killer is allowed to kill Survivors. At any time. There's no arbitrary time limit (after a gen pops, after 4 gens pop, during EGC) on when he can kill except the bullshit Survivors keep inventing.
If Survivors do gens; the Killer gets 1, MAYBE 2 kills anyways
This is the exact problem.
The killer chooses to play as little as they can. It shouldn't be a '1, maybe 2' scenario (not counting NOED which can easily make things worse), it should be a 'maybe 1, but definitely nothing more' scenario. It needs to not even be close to a viable strat. Even by your own admission, it is either dangerously close or already there.
And as I keep saying, it's a matter of overall balance as well since there's a ton of things BHVR can't do without also, as collateral damage, making camping more effective.
You want gen speeds slowed down? You want 'second chance perks' nerfed?
Tough.
Camping exists. Anything killers want is invalidated by that single fact.
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@ilovedbd123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2392975#Comment_2392975
I mean the base gen speed is basically a crutch for survivors.
BHVR need to fix that #########, corrupt intervention base would be nice. Or a mini pop/ruin base.
And give campers a guaranteed 2K+? No thanks.
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@Power_Guy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2394497#Comment_2394497
Rofl. Imagine thinking Killers using a tactic that's accepted by the devs is 'entitlement' while completely ignoring all the Survivor babies screaming for punishments & changed mechanics to cater to them & force the Killers to play by their made up rules.
The real entitlement is the bad Survivor players demanding the game be changed because they don't like losing.
My dude, you are hard defending a method that's literally the killer going 'I know I only did a third of the work, give me the full reward anyway'.
Calling survivors entitled over wanting to play the game is... unique.
Camping won't get fixed by 'incentives'. At least give the camped survivor the satisfaction that no one else dies.
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Y'all gonna talk about god windows and not mention Mother's Dwelling?