FerrousFacade
FerrousFacade
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@NordSahne said:
Do we really gonna start complaining about them buffing useless perks, that you never see? What about diversity? I thought survivors don't like going against the same perks
Pop being replaced with undone or someone slotting monstrous shrine into their build doesn't change the fact that I am still facing gen focused slowdown/regression/blocking with the killer going for a tunnel out. Some of the chase perks will see play but the primary meta will not change.
The survivor changes will not change which perks survivors run because our perk slots are already filled with anti-tunnel (StB nerf, Borrowed Time nerf, no other changes), anti-slug (no changes), gen speed (stake out replaced by this is not happening, no real change). FmA will just replace windows and beginners will need to run both meaning less space for anti-tunnel (even easier tunnel on the player trying to learn). Flow State needs to hit 3 tokens before its healing speed approaches Botany, endgame unhook is the only real advantage. Empathic doesn't work on yourself so still botany. Road life? Better to just bring a medkit.
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/472351/new-patch-favoring-killers-again
Saying that the changes are for perks that nobody uses is literally the point. That's the point, to make them used more. And same with the killer ones. Nobody used monsterous shrine before, and i doubt they will now, but at least its something.
Monstrous shrine will absolutely see play, pair it with pain res (untouched) and the new undone to kick gens with built up tokens when someone isn't on a scourge hook. You get an uncleansable ruin up most of the match while still being able to kick gens when necessary.
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@dbd900bach said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117529#Comment_4117529
Are they actually though? That's the idea sure, and with so many maps with often confusing layouts, windows is definitely a massively useful perk. However, by itself it teaches new players to waste resources. They see pallets everywhere and will waste all of them in a single chase. I don't think beginniners should even have this perk until they understand resource management and basic looping.
Windows is one of the few things within the game itself that can teach you resource management and basic looping. The game doesn't really mention these things anywhere (maybe its somewhere in the showcase now, I've never gone through the whole thing). Veteran players in this game just cannot seem to fathom how long this can take or have forgotten how long it can take. As you noted, there are a ton of maps and each can spawn wildly differently match to match. Over time they will see that by dropping everything quickly they leave themself with fewer and fewer resources (and literally be able to see this with the perk). Unless this strategy leads to them winning matches (which it won't unless the killer is bad and just auto breaks everything they drop) they will begin trying other things.
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@dbd900bach said:
They're not exactly beginner perks in my opinion. Yes, they're extremely useful information perks that make traversing the map during chase much less daunting even for experienced players. However, its a doesn't teach new players how to loop or manage resources. It encourages the opposite with no guidance. Its a crutch.
However, actual beginner perks were buffed quite a bit to actually help newer players. I think thats more important than focusing on two perks that require money to get that new players aren't guaranteed to get at all or even know about so their importance as beginner friendly perks isn't actually that important.
It teaches map layouts, which is a starting point for learning the rest of looping. There is no looping if you just run into an area with no resources and if you are not looping then you are not learning looping. What beginner perks were buffed? And if you are referring to the minor number tweaks on the lower tiers of the general perks those will do nothing for helping a player learn the game. When teaching people the game the build we usually give someone includes windows and deja vu because these perks show them where to find the primary elements you interact with in a match as a survivor.
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Its more than just bad teammates, primary survivor frustrations still exist. Ping hits are more common because you might go against a team with one player in a different region. You can still be camped or tunneled, its just mildly more inconvenient for the killers. You can still be slugged for the 8k (though this is thankfully very rare). If a teammate dcs the bot is terrible, the killer bots can be predictable but still tend to be OK teammates and some can be very strong with wesker and nurse bot being homing rockets with their power. Then we add new frustrations like being double tapped and tons of haste.
To make more evenly skilled matches you would need to dramatically increase the queue time for killers and survivor queue time would probably go up a bit as well. Even if you made the matchmaking create more even skill levels you would likely just see more killers resort to sweatier tactics, just like 1v4 an early tunnel out(s) mean less gen pressure overall.
The mode also just isn't that survivor sided, its only a bit survivor sided and then only in a perfect world of even matches. I have had 5+ escapes in a decent number of my survivor matches but this run as killer I have only had a single 4k and a single 5k with every other match being 6k+ (Xeno is excellent in the mode btw), this includes matches against multiple survivors with 6k hours and 4+ stacks. That doesn't mean I didn't struggle in some matches but I still ended up winning. People love to say survivor skill issue for my killer wins but that doesn't match my survivor experience. If there was truly a rampant survivor skill issue I wouldn't be getting the amount of victories (not just escapes) I am getting on that side. I don't think I am an amazing killer either so I suspect many have a similar experience to me.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113776#Comment_4113776
the issue is they will continue to be matched with people who want to actually play the game. people who abandon frequently frankly should be put in a loser mmr bracket and they can all dc against each other.
Abandon is not a DC. The abandon option appears when all remaining survivors have been slugged or if you have been slugged multiple times without being hooked or on the killer end when no generators have been completed for ten minutes. In an ideal world abandon would not be a thing but that would require BHVR to actually address these with proper game design.
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Boons are still bad perks and rarely worth the effort to setup. Steadfast in particular shaves less time off the gen than the time it takes to setup the boon. The only reason anyone was seeing more boons is because of Shadowstep being the only remotely consistent counter to aura read against a killer that rarely hooks. Self Preservation would have been the perk spiking in usage over Shadowstep if Judgment had to hook. As you see Judgment less you will also see fewer boons.
I have had a single match where I was assisted by an Ada duo both bringing four boon perks. The only reason they were helpful was because we were facing a nurse that was hard crutching on aura read, both boons had Shadowstep, and the nurse refused to step five feet away from their three gen to snuff the boons. A better nurse player that wasn't so reliant on aura read or any other killer and those boons would have done far less.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114424#Comment_4114424
Yeah but in general survivors have WAY harsher restrictions and they still come out on top 90% of the time. It's one of the biggest reasons why they use hooks to score points because if they based it off the killer winning it would be "who got a faster 1-2k"
Have you ever actually watched any of the matches? Or are you just making claims with no real experience?
This is the screen @crogers271 is referring to from this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xgkCLrrjAQ
43% of the time the match result is based on how many generators were completed before the team was 4k'd, if both killer players 4k the match is absolutely based on who 4k'd faster (based on gens completed). 2.88 kills per game is further indicative of a lot of 3k's. Then if you look at this specific grand final most matches end in a 4k. The notion that survivors come out on top "90%" of the time comes from a place of ignorance to the actual outcomes.
Many of the banned perks are not even banned because of strength but because whichever league/tourney you are watching wants to push specific gameplay forward. Are you concerned about This is not happening and treacherous crows being banned? Or maybe human greed?
When I look at the list of perk bans many of the perks I see constant complaints about (like DS, DH, WoO, Unbreakable) are not banned until you start getting down to lower tier killers. Hyperfocus and stake out are but so is almost every other gen speed perk other than deja vu and resi. Using nightlight perk usage (very imperfect) you have to get down to 15th used to get an outright banned perk (resurgence). Meanwhile five of the top ten most used killer perks are banned on all killers (lethal, NtH, BBQ, Nurses, DMS) and many perks I dislike going against (blood favor, dissolution, thrill…) are also on there. That is all before diving into perk and add-on bans on individual killers like blight not being allowed pain res and nearly all his add-ons being banned. Jason isn't allowed to use Deputy's Badge. Ghoul isn't allowed centipede or mask. This is balancing I personally would absolutely take as a survivor and be concerned about as a killer.
Finally I'll just echo something crogers already pointed out, the biggest killer nerf is always ignored. Knowing which killer they are going up against and on which map gives a massive advantage to the survivor team. Despite that killers do just fine.
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114424#Comment_4114424
IIRC, there was also a no-holds-barred style tournament at one point, and it resulted in a surprisingly balanced outcome.
I think Hen's is still the most recent and it saw tons of use of the "broken" Fast Track. Killers still did absolutely fine, I think the overall kill rate was still around 50% and a quick scroll through is showing a lot of 2k matches and killers getting plenty of hooks even when they don't get many kills.
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@BloodBehemoth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114310#Comment_4114310
No, that would be according to every comp-level tournament where they ban a TON of survivor perks and tactics and killers still don't stand a chance.
Have you ever actually looked at the rulesets? Because a TON of killer perks and tactics are also banned, who is expected to win is highly dependent on the killer.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113120#Comment_4113120
If she banishes survivors they can be pulled from basically anywhere on the map meaning she can't tunnel easily. If she hooks them instead then they activate as normal.
This is incorrect, the shrines that the survivor can be rescued from are the two closest to where the exile occurred. The gameplay showcase even gives a tip to consider carrying the survivor to a better location for you before exiling them. Additional further shrines will activate if the Judgment stays within close proximity of the active shrines but that takes additional time and for the Judgment to camp the currently active shrines (no idea on the range/duration required for additional shrines to activate).
I can agree that rescuing while the killer is nearby is user error but the killer is able to watch the hud for the rescue and return to the area they exiled from to find the survivor. Unless they hard camped the area they will have an idea of where the rescue occurred. Between the inability to body block, the non-existence of anti-tunnel perks, a power that can hit cross map, and how effective aura reading is on this killer they are capable of tunneling extremely effectively. I think how things currently work is fine by the way but I don't think we should downplay that this is another killer that is good at tunneling.
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@SpyUA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4111385#Comment_4111385
Because there's no MMR so bad players can play with good players and killer mains using the play while you wait feature so bad survivors, that's basically the reason you have 60% kill rate. There's so many buffs to survivors and most killer buffs barely do anything. Like it's more of a skill issue from survivors.
I agree that it's a lot fun for killer side but it is survivor sided and it's a fact, I am doing fine because of the reasons I mentioned in previous paragraph.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4111441#Comment_4111441
Think again about what?, when the tonics got added which remove hook stages and heal for free the queue times for killer remained 30 minutes, when they added the new class with flashlights (very annoying mechanic for the killer side, so they obviously ignoring the killer side) which is fun for survivors the queue times remained 30 minutes, they keep buffing the survivor side in hopes that it becomes fun so the queue times get fixed but it's not working and just makes more annoying for killer side.
So in one post you say it's miserable for killer but then in another claim you are doing fine and that it is fun? Sorry but those are kind of opposing viewpoints. It's not a survivor skill issue otherwise my escape rate would be lower. I've faced many of the teammates I won with on survivor and beat them while on killer, that is 100% a killer skill issue. The only other possibility is that everyone has killer stats that look similar to or are better than mine but still complain because they go in expecting to win every single match and when they can't scream survivor sided, which isn't something you can balance around.
Triple dash Wesker, triple dash Dracula, Oni turning, giga blink nurse, hell even the speed Ghostface has in night shroud. If you think these buffs do nothing then you don't have any idea what you are talking about. Certain killers are weaker than others but that's no different than 1v4.
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It's the left hand not talking to the right hand... again...
A little while back we got a post on the forum from bhvr that revault was part of ghouls "intended" counterplay. A few days later a bugfix removed the revault… then the bugfix was removed.
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@SpyUA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4111362#Comment_4111362
Did you even read it?, the buffs just don't make any difference but make it more survivor sided and more miserable for killers.
Except killer isn't miserable in 2v8 and is actually a lot of fun. My killer stats from the most recent iteration.
60% KR is the intended 1v4 balance and that is what I am sitting at in this supposedly insanely survivor sided mode. Somehow I doubt you have ever stopped to consider that its a skill issue on your part and not the mode.
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@AliceNull said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110923#Comment_4110923
Does the team have any intent to modify the stat tracker page to include team escape rate or any information from the new 'tally' MMR system, now that performance is team based rather than individual on the survivor side? Assuming I've even understood that correctly, I may have gotten that wrong.
Performance is still not team based but I would love to see team escape rate. Let's actually treat survivor abandons as a death while we're at it.
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2v8 is better balanced than 1v4 is and I will die on this hill. Is it perfect, no of course not but once again the primary issue is killer strength disparity (comeback mechanic needs some adjustments as well, total current gen progress including completed gens instead of just gens completed).
I have had plenty of matches where it felt like both my teammate and I were getting downs left and right but gens were still flying. It feels weird in the moment but then you get to the end of the match and the result lands around a 4k with heavy variance depending on how the endgame goes but rarely less than a 3k. The only matches that resulted in less than a 3k were matches that I or my partner player poorly in. That's a much better balance then 1v4s snowball victories.
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@SpyUA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109068#Comment_4109068
What I want is gen rushing nerfed but the tunneling can be nerfed with it or a buff for not tunneling.
Strong should get nerfed and that it's harder for weak killers to tunnel doesn't mean that it's easier for them to not tunnel, they need tunneling because they lack a lot on the power (killers below A tier need tunneling).
Survivor perks are just stronger in general and they get 16 of them like 4 exhaustion perks are much stronger than pain res, I personally don't like to use slowdown and I normally try to use just 1 or 2 if can make a combo from other perks (you need multiple perks on killers for them to be decent), I prefer fun builds like I have a few actually on my mains but I can't think of any more and the diminishing returns ruined a lot of them, so I just use 4 gen kicking perks (and only sometimes full slowdown with pain res) when i don't feel like using any other perks (btw if killers is using a slugging build they have no slowdown).
I totally agree that both sides have gotten buffs against their problems, survivors are getting elusive when unhooked to reduce tunneling, it's better than 15 seconds which was too safe and abused and it will let survivors to hide from the killer.
You basically said what I said but the opposite of it.
Do you want a slower game or a faster game? Because if you buff not tunneling to the point it becomes stronger than tunneling you have fundamentally made the game faster (tunneling is already the fastest way the killer can win) which would then mean gens need to go faster. So long as tunneling is something the killer can choose to do this will always fundamentally be the case.
The 16 vs 4 perks argument has always been bogus, it's an asym and the perks on each side do different things. The killer ones have a significantly larger impact on the game than the survivor ones do. Just because you don't run four slowdown personally doesn't make them weak, they are by far the builds I see most frequently. On slugging build, they often run ruin and that's enough because the moment someone is picked up they get knocked down again.
The problem you are missing is that the speed gens currently get completed at are necessary to compete with tunneling. In order to change that you need to address tunneling, not buff not tunneling. Elusive does not help, it's hard countered by the killer having eyes and in one way actually makes tunneling easier, you no longer have to count to ten just wait for the scratch marks to start showing.
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@SpyUA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109042#Comment_4109042
Hyper focus + stakeout exist and the game insanely quick when a team uses it and killers only counter is to tunnel, like if the killer doesn't tunnel, survivors are not going to magically stop gen rushing. A game literally can be completed in 5 minutes even if the killer has a full slowdown, I have a video of a gen being completed in 22 seconds by one survivor so all 4 survivors are able to complete a gen in under 30 seconds with gen rushing build.
best counter to tunnelling
It's shoulder the burden, shoulder the burden with ds and the killer will genuinely struggle to tunnel because of strong this is and exposed ain't doing anything.
Ds is still a very strong perk, if it was bad now then it wouldn't be used.
Basekit regression was boosted
Gens have an 8 kick limit and majority of slowdown perks have been nerfed overall and regression speed perks were nerfed as well like ruin or call of brine, a full slowdown build with pain res, pop goes the weasel, DMS and eruption is much weaker currently then it was years ago. Killers have nothing base kit (like a perk) unlike survivors and idk what are you talking about base kit regression cuz they have non.
Survivors were buffed a lot with pallet density update and also even stronger base kit bt.
When they nerf hyper focus + stake out you won't start saying that now you don't need to tunnel, you'll move on to saying something else means you must tunnel. If survivors don't slam gens the killer isn't going to magically stop tunneling and nerfing this combo just makes tunneling stronger by further weakening the counterplay (slam gens).
Strong killers just eat right through ds and shoulder, they are hardly even a speed bump to tunneling. Nerfing tunneling would hurt stronger killers more then weaker killers exactly because the weaker killers have a harder time doing so and that then makes it easier to adjust other aspects of their power.
Regression perks are still strong, if they weren't killers wouldn't run them and they certainly wouldn't run four of them.
Killers have gotten additional gen time, immediate regression on kick, less wipe time, decreased survivor distance on hit, removal of gen tapping... Both sides have received adjustments to make the game feel better and it's past time that was applied to tunneling.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108892#Comment_4108892
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/C8IB01119SPZ/1000002536.jpg
Last 2v8 survivor game I played was late on the 15th
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/SL81E9V3IHB9/1000002523.jpg
Took this yesterday and it wasn't showing yet
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/S0W4B58I4L80/1000002534.jpg
Took this one just now
It's not a recent matches issue. The site outright ignores matches you abandon as survivor. The delay exists because it would be a word waste of resources to recalculate your stats each time you visit. Instead on a scheduled basis a process calculates and stores your stats in a different place from the individual matches store and serves your stats from there. The matches you abandon will never be used for those calculated stats.
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108856#Comment_4108856
So you never escape? I play solo queue, I’m a very casual player, and am usually around the average 40% escape rate. In my own experience it’s not nearly as bad as you’re describing. It’s very possible to escape in solo queue, but it’s not going to happen every match. In a horror game where killer should be the power role, escaping 40% of the time feels very fair to me.
@Wezqu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108884#Comment_4108884
I play with random perks and my all time escape rate is about 40% too. So I don't usually take anyones claims of solo being bad that seriously. My stats also does effect the fact I am quite often playing really alturisticly that quite often causes me to change place with the person who was hooked in end game and usually dying of it. So my escape rate would be way higher if I would just leave when I can. Still usually my 30 days average is more around 50% escape rate usually.
Do you abandon any matches? I keep asking this because the stats page treats those matches as if they never happened. The stats site has my escape rate at above 40% but I know it's ignoring a decent chunk of matches I abandoned because of a team slug or slug for the 4k. I have no idea how inflated the escape rate it displays is. It's been an issue since they introduced the site and abandons and official sources ignore the issue, at this point the inflation feels intentional.
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Please send all the windows of opportunity users to me. It's a perk that doesn't increase gen speeds, doesn't give endurance, doesn't give haste, doesn't cause a stun or blind, and doesn't actually make the survivor any better in chase. It is a good perk for learning map layouts and knowing with certainty whether or not a teammate used a resource.
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4107920#Comment_4107920
I disagree - I think a majority of their revenue comes from survivor cosmetics. Unfortunately there’s no way to know for sure, but I’m just basing this on the fact that there are always more survivor players than killer players and there are typically a lot more cosmetics available for survivors than killers
Survivors are easier to create cosmetics for, so quantity is a bad indicator. I would assume they make the most money from players that play both sides but would bet those players spend more on killer. I own all killers and all survivors, so they made money on the licensed ones from me on both sides. On killer, I have purchased cosmetics using real money for Huntress, Pig, Spirit, Ghostface, Oni, Cenobite, Onryo, Ghoul, and Jason. On survivor, I have spent zero real money on cosmetics just iri shards and rift cosmetics. Survivors are just skins of each other, you just need to like the look of one. Each killer offers unique gameplay and if you want them to look different than the default you need a skin for each one, on the licensed killers that means paying up.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4107920#Comment_4107920
i cant argue one way or another which part makes the most money, nor does it matter to me. but i feel pretty confident that survivor purchases is not an ignorable quantity for behavior even if it was only half of whatever revenue killers brought in.
Behavior isnt going to go "killers make the most money so we will only focus on that group and not capitilize on the smaller but still significant market"
They are a buisiness, that has to spend alot of money each year to sustain itself. it does not make any buisiness sense for them to not want both player groups to have a good time and so BOTH survivors and killers spend money because if you take away whoever has the smallest cosmetic and character purchases, behaviors revenue and profitibality would likely be in peril. I doubt new game sales are significant enough this far in to its life to sustain its size on its own though i could also be quite wrong.
@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4107920#Comment_4107920
Keep in mind that most used doesnt mean people haven't bought the other characters. People still get drawn to buying licensed survivors if they want the perks right away. You have a point for cosmetics, but even then... alot of people will just use the default or prestige stuff for the licenses.
I agree with all of these, we are all ultimately guessing and behaviour wants money from everyone. My concern only comes from the amount of times I have seen the notion that survivors spend more parroted alongside claims that behaviour favors survivors because of it.
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I used to queue up as a solo survivor almost every day, now I just don't play the game all that much unless there is an event mode running. As has been stated, why would I enjoy a match that I lost in the lobby? And it goes beyond that, probably half my matches seem to involve a killer with 100+ ping so you can't even have decent chases (I accept that there is at least some negativity bias in how frequent I feel it was). I truly think at least some of the players saying "most survivors suck" fail to realize how much their bad ping is carrying them and never play survivor to see how bad it would be.
Then we get to tunneling. Now I agree with anyone saying its a valid tactic but if a teammate gets tunneled out quickly enough then I just get stuck in a probably doomed match. The survivor team may not deserve to win but I don't deserve to lose unless I had some hand in the tunnel out. I don't give up but unless the entire survivor team is better than the killer you are just waiting to die, not a fun situation except the rare times you do get out. Too many matches follow the exact pattern: killer got a tunnel out early, I get chased, they drop, down a teammate, repeat until we run out of resources, slug for the 4k, get humped on the ground (thank you abandon system). It takes far more skill from the survivors to counter a tunnel out than it does for the killer to execute. I actually think this is a big part of why many killer players struggle in 2v8, you can't tunnel as easily and they lose their easier win tactic.
On teammates, I personally mostly had decent teammates. Perhaps this has gotten worse more recently and if so I would suspect its because the decent players stopped queuing up solo and SWF'd up. Behaviour has been releasing more strong killers like Jason where it honestly feels like you are not meant to win against them solo unless the killer player themself has a skill issue. If the killer player is good then in order for the survivors to win you need everyone to be absolutely on point, on comms with everyone still good, or the killer has to be playing a lower tier killer. I'm not saying everything is sunshine and rainbows on killer but it's comparatively a much better experience.
I don't think I'm an amazing killer and got pushed to try a weaker killer for a bit, Pig. Unless the survivors were hard sweating, got a heavily survivor sided map, or I played poorly I won. I'm not saying some matches didn't feel like garbage (I vividly remember a match on RPD where the survivors brought two BNPs) but it was far fewer matches than it was on survivor and I had much more control over how things moved forward, even in the bad matches. Stats from last 30 days.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4107903#Comment_4107903
right, im sure behavior hates the majority of thweir userbase and revenue stream. why do poeple think behavior hates one specific portion of their users. this is such an absurd nonsense trope to push over and over and act like its any kind of sensible opinion
Behaviour almost certainly makes most of their money off of the purchase of licensed killers. Of the five most played survivors only Lara is licensed, the top 4 are all free and account for around 27% of survivors played, all with free cosmetics so long as you save up the iri shards. In high mmr none of the top 5 are licensed (mostly noting because these players are more likely to play more and spend more money). Meanwhile, three of the most played killers are licensed and if you want other skins for them you have no option but to pay real money, this becomes 4 of the most played killers for high mmr (15% broad, 22.3% high). I'm not agreeing that behaviour hates survivors but no one has any real evidence for who spends the most money but I would bet its killer and killer cosmetic purchases.
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Removed, no. Nerfed, yes. If Oni wasn't in power so often they would be fine. If Oni didn't have the buffed turning and movement speed they would be fine. As it stands they just lack realistic counterplay outside of SB on button press which is itself a problem in almost all other situations.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4107348#Comment_4107348
Last time we had 2v8 my escape rate was like 75-80%.
Ok, what was your kill rate? How many matches did you play? How many times did you abandon? How many times was the escape via hatch? How many of those matches ended in each of 0k to 8k? I re-iterate, personal escape rates are not indicative of actual match outcomes.
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4107318#Comment_4107318
Survivor buffs are not needed. They’ve already heavily buffed the 2v8 perks and made it much easier for the survivor role compared to normal 1v4 mode to incentivize more people to play survivor. I play both sides and I’m fine with that because getting more people to choose survivor role is badly needed in 2v8. Last 2v8 I had >50% escape rate playing solo queue and I’m a very average-skilled player. The killer queues are always longer in 2v8 because a lot of people want to play killer role for a unique experience compared to 1v4, especially with friends. It’s not because survivor role in 2v8 is too hard.
What was your escape rate in the last 2v8?The mode is not "easier" for survivor, its simply not the same as 1v4 and needs to be played differently particularly on the killer side. You are also actively ignoring all the buffs killers get in the mode. Less gen repair time but map sizes were not even close to doubled leading to many gens being closely bunched together while two killers run around a relatively small area and regression is incredibly quick. Its more survivor sided than normal 1v4 but not nearly to the degree all the complaining about it suggests.
My personal escape rate was 57% but my personal kill rate was 62% (including 59% on trapper), guess that means we need to nerf both sides lol. Personal escape rates are not indicative of actual match outcomes, I can escape every match with every other survivor dying each time, the same cannot be said of kill rates. Never forget that every time you abandon a match the stats website ignores the match inflating your escape rate, if you abandoned even a single match then your escape rate is inflated.
The best way to stop 2v8 from messing with regular queue times is to make it permanent and only swap it out when another game mode is active that way the novelty can wear off. If queue times don't eventually normalize then its the perfect showcase of how bad 1v4 has become. Of course we can just look at how much the playerbase spikes whenever 2v8 comes back around to tell us that.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
Strong suspicion that this was written by an AI.
But to engage with the topic, I have a question:
What’s stopping turbo-competitive gamers from queueing in the ‘regular’ queue, which supposedly makes for substantially easier games for them?
A part of me would like the separation of competitive vs casual queue but at this point I think that would come with making 2v8 permanent as the "casual" mode. Should a casual mode be implemented as 1v4 I hope it would borrow heavily from 2v8 with things like cages, no items except chests, heavy perk restrictions, and comeback mechanics. A casual 1v4 would ideally also include real anti-tunnel and anti-slug. Basically take everything that the turbo-competitive gamers use to make the game easier for themselves and remove or neuter it in some way. The turbo-comp gamers could still go into the mode that way and likely still have an easier game than they would in the competitive mode but they would be limited in just how harshly they can play and should still be a decent experience for their opponent(s).
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@SpyUA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103567#Comment_4103567
I do know that and 10 seconds out of 15 are covered by endurance (the 15 seconds were fully covered with 15 seconds of endurance which is currently in the game but will get changed later), getting hit during the 10 seconds means getting a speed boost and by just holding W will probably guarantee survival for 15 seconds even against blight (some resource should be near).
Your plot twist example is just highly specific cuz of that one perk and would be a bad play by your teammate, like just heal for 16 seconds. Also, If the unhooked survivor wants to bodyblock (and killer waits the 10 seconds and downs them), then they are asking to get tunneled out, they could have used their elusive to get away (I know this change has not been implemented yet but still).
It's not a bug but really every unhook is basically safe unhook which is rarely otherwise and was caused by a bad play most of the time, so saying needing a safe unhook for deli is an issue is just fundamentally wrong, not getting hooked first is not that hard actually, killers use lethal rarely (I love this perk but it shouldn't be considered crazy strong or something that's used every match) cuz a slowdown is obviously better, like corrupt intervention shows the survivor location basically + first few gens at the start will take longer to be completed.
Again, you can argue it should have more conditions which is what you are now doing but that doesn't make it bugged. I was simply explaining what the game considers a safe unhook since it seems like you didn't know beforehand.
We didn't know that would happen and laughed about it because we thought it was funny, its a niche interaction that obviously works that way if you think about it, we just made a silly mistake. Bad play? That's time I used to hop back on the three gen the killer was holding, it was absolutely the right play.
Not getting hooked first is entirely chance, not something "easy" or something you have much real control over. Last time we actually got stats on perks lethal pursuer was fifth most picked worldwide, I don't know about you but that isn't rarely used to me.
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@SpyUA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103543#Comment_4103543
So about deli, every single unhook counts as safe cuz it's currently broken, if you go into the basement while a killer camps it and unhook the survivor Infront of the killer, it will count as safe, I have seen many times when my first hook was in basement and then after that hooking the other person who was unhooker, when I went away they unhooked themselves and got the broken status effect, like every unhook is safe currently.
Also, cross examination was tested in the PTB and it was very obvious it's broken to many killers going away after going once around the loop as they thought the survivor left (there are plenty of loops with high walls where you can't see the survivor) or killers keep going around the loop when they thought the survivor was still there but they left with whole 5 seconds of elusive, elusive is a broken status effect and getting it permanently is broken (elusive literally does what 10 different perks do combined like iron will is one of them for example and with cross examination it was basically permanent) and it gave you the 5 seconds of elusive every time you got hit so with the speed you were able to hide from the killer, imo the perk should be fully reworked cuz it's a flawed design.
You should probably know what the game considers a "safe unhook" if you are going to claim its bugged. It just means that the unhooked survivor doesn't enter the dying state for 15 seconds after being unhooked. I have actually had my deli not activate because I unhooked a friend who wanted to use their plot twist and plot twisted before those 15 seconds had passed. You could argue that there should be more conditions on a safe unhook but not that it isn't working as intended.
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@myersmain101 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102243#Comment_4102243
my kill rate currently 58%. for a target the devs have set which is 60%, 58% is not good enough. especially when i have to put 1000% more effort into getting 58% kill rate, have to play way more sweaty, way less fun.
Survivor on the other hand, im escaping over 60% of my matches, far less stressful due to the fact survivors can afford to go afk for a few seconds in a locker while they go take a leak then come back and resume working on a gen. if a killer did that, they come back to multiple gens being finshed while they were away. its all go for killer 100% of the match, survivors can chill out on a gen and destress for a bit. when the devs aim for 60/40 in favour of killers but my escape rate is higher than my kill rate….thats when i think its time to swap to an easier role (survivor)
im having way more fun playing solo survivor right now than killer, easy going and chilled out compared to killer matches. i would say i am survivor main since they reworked myers. its been since then i play mostly survivor with a few killer matches. i have no intention of going back to killer main with the way things currently are
What killers are you playing if you don't mind sharing?
This is my last 30 days on killer and a bunch of the matches are in the anni event queue, most of this is on Jason (aura read only build) but also includes a decent chunk of Unknown, Plague, Pig (none in anni on this one), and a couple ghost face matches. My last 30 days on survivor are not a good representation, I only played survivor because casual friends came back for the event (my escape rate and win rate with them is in the gutter which is why I can confidently say casual survivors are just killer fodder).
I personally find I have to play far sweatier on survivor than killer to stand a chance, to a degree that has become not fun for me. I can agree that killer is more stressful but that is a separate thing entirely that the 1v4 format makes it impossible to change. I personally have not found I can AFK in a locker for any amount of time and hope to stand a chance of the survivors winning, that inefficiency will be the downfall of the survivor team. Time on a gen is time I use to watch where my teammates are (bond) and track where gens are being completed. I regularly find not doing those things means I don't escape. I do want to state that I don't think everything on killer is great or anything like that but the main driver is the disparity in killer strength and how survivor needs to be balanced in relation to that.
Do you ever abandon after all the survivors abandon? Because the stat website treats the survivors that abandoned in those matches as escaping, Otz has a short about his twins kill rate on it. For survivor we have a similar problem with abandon, the stats site ignores matches you abandon artificially inflating your escape rate. I also don't really care about personal escape rate, hatch escapes are only there as a means to end a match and are not the survivor winning unless two teammates made it out a gate. How often is the survivor team actually winning (3+ out)? I know you don't have those stats at hand but they are the ones I really care about.
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@myersmain101 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102226#Comment_4102226
sounds like a cop out tbh, anyone having a rough time "you raised your mmr too much" its taken 5 years to raise mmr to the point its at now? mmr does not raise that slowly for a start. then 2 years of having regular swf pro teams and still i havnt dropped mmr? i dont buy it. 7 years in total and im still low mmr as survivor getting baby killers? doesnt add up
And how are you actually doing on killer against these "pro swf teams?" Are you losing the majority of your matches? What do your kill rates look like? Because if you are still winning more matches than you are losing then what exactly is the problem? And if you're really not winning then I would love to actually see your stats. The number of times I have seen people complaining about killer while simultaneously winning the majority of their matches is a big part of why I can't take most killer complaints seriously.
I just finished 9 matches playing as Pig, I won 4, Lost 2, and Tied the remaining 3. That's good results and its on a "C tier" killer against players with thousands of hours (all I can really check since MMR is hidden) that are clearly playing as a team. I mention this because you say you stopped playing killer in favor of solo q while I have done the total opposite. I used to play solo survivor all the time (yes i did also play killer at the time, just not as much as survivor) and now basically refuse to play survivor, especially solo queue. We are seeing stronger and stronger killers released while the strongest things on survivor get nerfed. Survivor is often just loss simulator and that's as an experienced player, casual survivors are just fodder for killer players at this point while casual killers can easily put up good results with experienced killers winning the vast majority of their matches on almost anyone.
If you really are seeing more and more SWF its because players are realizing that the game isn't balanced for solo survivors unless the killer has a skill issue or goes out of their way to play the weaker killers and you just don't see those killers often. Some of the strongest killers are easy to pick up and will put up great results with far less skill than is required of survivors to put up even half decent results. All of this is before we get into technical issues like the number of matches that get ruined because the killer has bad ping (and gets an advantage for it) or bad game design like slugging for the 4k still being a thing. I honestly can't see how anyone doesn't see the killer experience as vastly superior to the survivor experience and the killer experience continues to see real action taken to improve it while survivor honestly feels like its being left to rot.
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4101767#Comment_4101767
I didn't know what survivors got to choose last Chaos Shuffle as I didn't play survivor last go around.
Random items as a mechanic for survivors wouldn't be a big deal since there are only 6 items, they can swap, there are chests and survivors always have the choice to just not use their items.
Not so for killers, they tend not to do well if they don't use or are bad with their power. Now if killers could interact with chests or something else to be able to reroll another killer and addons… that could be fun.
I mostly mentioned random killers in jest, a mode doing it could be fun though, maybe you will find someone fun you didn't expect. The point is the killer can make choices that have a much bigger effect on the match than the items survivors can choose to bring in. Keys and maps are bad in most matches, while you can find something else in a chest it takes time and is random (and there are more cryptic maps in them than anything else). Maps with the totem add-on are good if the killer brings a hex build but are otherwise bad and keys are only really good for opening hatch, the aura read add-on is ok but very limited.
You can't pick lightborn but you still have plenty of options for playing around flashlights. The survivors can't choose to bring in anti-slug or anti-tunnel perks should the killer choose to employ those strategies. Killer selection and any tactic the killer may choose to employ are going to have a much larger effect on the match than which items the survivors pick and are always available to the killer to use regardless of who they pick or which perks or add-ons they roll.
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4101708#Comment_4101708
That's part of my point there. Why should killers have completely random addons while survivors can choose their item and its addons?
That's why I'm asking the question.
It should not be survivors bring 4 flashlights because the killer can't put on Lightborn. It should not be chaos for me but not for thee.
Survivors never got to choose their addons, they got to pick their item but the rarity and which addons were totally random. While none totally hose a survivor many are useless like instructions. I would be in favor of making the items random as well, but if you wanna go "chaos for me but not for thee" then why do we allow killers to pick which killer they can play as?
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@Chrarcq said:
and it's powercreeping most of the older killers out of being effective
That's not how it works, lol.
That is exactly how it works.
New killers get released that are stronger than older killers → players gravitate towards the newer killers at least partially because they are stronger → stronger killers means higher kill rates → survivor gets buffed to compensate and ensure they still have a chance of escaping against the stronger killers and to bring kill rates back down → old killer hasn't been changed and can't keep up as well anymore.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100139#Comment_4100139
Sleeping bag shows locations of survivors who are near hooks if you grab a hook spike while in OE. Typically ill chuck the free spike after hooking so I can grab a new one after entering OE. Resulted in this epic accident last night...
Amazing shot. Seems my brain skipped right past the "while in OE" part, would still fit the purpose just can't aim for someone right after hooking for a cross map, just for happy accidents.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100081#Comment_4100081
I actually tried changing my build on him JUST to avoid patrolling around indefinitely with OE, which leads to alot faster paced playstyle. Sleeping bag add can be good for finding your next chase, as well as Spies from the shadows and surge. Ends up resulting in me using his OE for no more than 10 seconds at a time, often times using it JUST to change floors.
I went full aura read and always announce myself with a lethal pursuer cross map attempt (map allowing for it). I pretty much never stay in OE for very long, its really not necessary to if you have an idea where the survivors are likely to be or saw them on bbq. I assume sleeping bag would proc on hooking (if you don't already have a spike) and could replace bbq in my build. I haven't tried that one out too much, been running two nails and aluminum.
I think this kind of perfectly showcases the problem with Jason though, he is incredibly good at keeping pressure up regardless of what he runs and so many just default to the strongest possible perks and add-ons because of it. His OE getting a nerf would be a huge incentive to go to that next chase rather than patrol endlessly and wouldn't really hurt these more aggressive styles. The aggressive playstyles are also a lot more fun to play against than the patrollers that won't come out unless they know exactly where the survivors are.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100029#Comment_4100029
Ghostface is good????
YOu seem to forget he doesnt get instadown on a whim like mayers,bubba,billy but he must get full stalk and then its just timed so things like vigil clears it plus ghostface in chase is bum not to mention he is the most weakest killer against swf or coordinated surviors because survivors control his power or can easily.
Hens made videa about worst 3 ghostface,trapper,merchant I get it was kinda comp settings but guess who lost the most and was biggest bum in there…… Ghostface wonder why (I already wrote it above).
Ghostfaces all power is hope that he can be unpredictiable and get fast downs by surprise which is something swf in any formation can totaly counter (even duo) and even solo can have one guy to run behind him and reveal him and force chase or him being m1.
Ghostface reveal is 3 seconds and you need to stare at him like 70% from that 3 seconds and its super bugged in survivor favor while he needs to stalk you for longer 4,5 seconds or lean but he looses lot of distace and still its just instadown but against invisibility,invincibility,speed boost, unbreakable pallets chances for ghostface to get down with poison instadown in chase are thinner then you think, very bad of a expectation from this killer to do well in black banquete even trapper would do better because he can atleast shut down the loops and trap objects.
Ghostface was plenty good in the event, I didn't play him a ton but I did play a few matches with him and won them all. Marking a survivor, having them try to go invisible to try and get away, and me downing them anyway was so funny. This included one match against a coordinated three stack as well.
Hens showcase proved how well most of these killers can do against even a coordinated team, the killers didn't win most matches but they did perfectly fine and got plenty of hooks even on the maps picked specifically to make the killers look weak. Most of those matches also restricted the killers to low tier add-ons meaning ghostface couldn't run drop leg or drivers license and Trapper couldn't run either of his iri add-ons or honing stone, trapper in particular with and without those add-ons is night and day strength level.
On the ghostface matches in particular, I have never watched Stalkedd before but he knew he was going into Lery's and then proceeded to never stalk survivors. I assume he is a decent ghostface but it feels like he went in with the intention of trolling the showcase or trying to make ghostface out to be weak. Ghostface needs some buffs but he isn't as weak as he is made out to be by many.
The invincibility, invisibility, and speed boost last literal moments, you can easily wait them all out. I am not saying they had no effect on matches but far less than its made out to be. The poison had a much more dramatic effect on my matches, the only thing truly rivaling the poison is the full table effects and those take time to setup (rng dependent), if the survivors just tried using the morsels they lose to poison usage it was that strong.
Overall, I also quite enjoyed the event. The portals made me lose my mind in some matches (and there was a night I got four camembert in a row) but overall I enjoyed the changes and different gameplay they encouraged. I think the poison needs a change so the killer has more to interact with and preferably something different per course like the survivors or perhaps a separate set of courses altogether for killer and each match would mix and match them. I think it was a great first draft of an event and fully expect it will get better and more fleshed out in the coming years.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099628#Comment_4099628
The only comparable pressure that a survivor should feel is when in chase- that is when your cognitive abilities should be at their maximum.
If you made all these statements BEFORE the HUD update then I’d agree with you, but you literally get so much information now that a lot of the pressure that comes from decision making you’re referring to has been lessened. If I play solo I will even sometimes throw Kindred on which basically means there is no possible mistake to make when it comes to making decision on unhooking. Similarly if you’re worried about gens, you can run Déjà vu. Pallets- FMA or WOO. There are literally perks for every concern you have. Should you need specific perks to play the game? Normally I’d say no, but you don’t ‘need’ perks to play the game. But if you have specific concerns you can easily put together a build to counter every concern you’ve listed.
If you consider yourself a competent survivor, then usually anything negative that happens in game will be a result of your teammates. Which yes, can be irritating and stressful but I personally do not believe a teammate making a mistake carries the same weight as you, the killer, playing on your own making a mistake. And no matter how you try and frame it, relatively speaking sitting on a generator (not mindless, still keeping an eye on things) is downtime compared to playing killer were every second of the match you have to be fully locked on.I want to throw something else in here at the end. These are my survivor stats for the last 30 days- I play the role extensively. Admittedly the anniversary is on atm which skews the results but here are my stats. I’m posting these to show that I do actually play a lot of survivor- a mix of solo and games as a duo.
But I want to mention something else- I play mostly 50/50. In the last year or so my escape rate hovers around what you see in the picture- sometimes it has been a little over 70%. Am I saying this to prove I’m comp or something? Not at all, there will be people on this forum who are much better players than me with far better escape rates.
I’m posting this because I am fully happy to say that my escape rate increasing by almost 15-20% on average from around a year ago is not down to some sudden increase in ability from me- I know it’s not that. The game is simply easier for survivor now, to deny this is silly. And at the end of the day, we can breakdown what is stressful for killer, what’s stressful for survivor but I think it’s obvious the game has been made easier for survivor. Whilst I know it’s only my example, I personally believe most ‘decent’ players will have had the same experience. That is why killer anxiety is an almost universal experience compared to survivor anxiety.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/ZTR4OSXVP5LW/img-3814.jpeg
If you want to win and not just play then no, you need to be paying attention. The HUD tells me what people are doing but not where, I still need to keep track of where pallets have likely been used, where gens have/have not been completed, where my teammates are. I don't mind slapping on perks for things (as I said I run bond specifically to assist with all of this) but once you start slapping on more you are diminishing your options in other areas of the game, its a tradeoff.
You immediately jump to blaming teammates that are running off the same limited information you are and may not be able to keep track of all this as readily as I do. Given how bad matchmaking is I'm not going to blame a teammate that may not be in a match they should be in and its always possible they just got unlucky. I'm not saying dumb mistakes never happen, I have seen a p100 player use their medkit to self heal right before plague infection broke them, but they are not as common as they are made out to be. Too many people jump directly to shifting the blame onto their teammates as an excuse for why they might not do as well on survivor, its ultimately another way to reduce stress you feel when playing the role.
Have you abandoned any matches? Because the stat page ignores those matches which artificially inflates your escape rate. How many are hatch escapes? I don't see how survivor has gotten easier in any way, the only basekit buff was the endurance increase and that mostly might add an extra escape in endgame, nothing else has changed other than additional strong killers being added to the game. We got more pallets but that ignores that most are weak and included nerfs to most main buildings, the stronger killers can play around them and the weaker killers are in the same weaker state they were before. Abandon was added in the past year though and seems a far more likely culprit for your stat boost.
Here are my killer stats from the last 30 days, almost all of this is in the event mode (my Jason build is all aura read not hex). Anytime you abandon on killer it treats the survivor as escaping so these are lower than they should be. There are far better killers than me on this forum and I have seen some of their stats with 80%+ kill rates on basically every killer and those that call a killer trash because their kill rate with them is a mere 70%. Both sides have outliers. Killer anxiety isn't a universal experience, its just another thing content creators are currently pushing because it gets views and the vast majority of them are killer mains. I am not trying to downplay that people do feel stressed when picking the role, just that it isn't nearly universal, isn't unique to killer or even this game (queue anxiety), and isn't something the devs can "do" anything about.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099421#Comment_4099421
1: You have no one to let down but yourself. Personally, I care far, far more about what happens when I'm in a team than playing individually. No one likes losing in either scenario, but if I make a bad play as survivor it bothers me far more than if I do as killer as I have not just let down myself, but three others.
I think most players care first and foremost about their own experience. There is nothing wrong with that but other players will be lower on their list of priorities. People rage quitting the game has been pretty common for years. That goes against caring about anyone other than yourself, which again is fine, if you don't go out of your way to make the game less fun for everyone else.
Most survivor players do an objective and don't think about all the other possibilities. Because they don't have enough information to even begin playing on that meta level. Competitive teams definitely do at least as much micro managing as the killer but these are extreme cases and don't apply to your average survivor. For a solo player it is unrealistic to even acquire all the information needed for that, so it's out of your control and something you can accept a bit easier.
You can see that someone is in chase, and you get to see what your team mates are doing. That's enough to have an idea of whether or not it is "safe" for you to sit on a gen or go for a rescue. Gens become a sort of down time for survivors because it means you do an objective without having to stress about it. There isn't too much you can do wrong when repairing a gen and you get a warning whenever the killer gets closer via their terror radius.
I'd argue you don't have anything like that as a killer. Even when you end a chase and go to hook a survivor, you're constantly thinking about how you need to be somewhere else or whether or not you can afford the time to pick a hook that might be more advantagious.
Alternative: Kind of dealt with this above. The control is a relief. From the start of the match there are a lot less unknowns to worry about, I see the gens, picked the killer, and can make a general plan really quickly. While constantly doing something as killer, I'm deciding what to do (edit to add: much like a horror movie, where you build tension via quietness, those moments of 'am I safe? am I doing the right thing? what's going on? are far more stressful than the killer who never has the need to stew). As survivor though there are a lot of factors outside of my control, what the killer decides to do or the play of the other survivors.
I'm not sure that knowing about your impact on the match will aleviate some of the stress you feel. Mostly because it is very rare that you start off chill and decide to play more serious later on. A rough start can kind of ruin your game (no matter the side you play), so most killers try to play as best as they can from the very beginning. When you see that that's not enough, you won't immediately think that you just need to do one or two things differently but that there is nothing you, with your skills and the information you have, can do better right this second. You just feel powerless even though you should be the one in control.
Alternative: Kind of like the winning point. As killer I set up the strategy, but survivors have to do the work and beat it. Far more stressful as survivor to be doing that in the moment. If as killer my strategy is bad, I can see where I went wrong and take as much time to readjust as I need and/or the fact it wins far more outweighs.
As a survivor, you mostly react to the killer. So there is less stressing involved about what the other side might or might not do. You do less predictions outside of chase and even in chase, there are a bunch of check spots around many loops that make a tile far safer, if you know how to use them.
When playing killer, you constantly try and play around hypotheticals. You could predict that someone is going for a save, a gen can still be defended, or 2 survivors are somewhere healing and you try account for that mostly by going there to stop that. If you are wrong, the survivors don't have to compensate. They just behave differently than you expected, which means you waste time. The risk is entirely on you. The survivors don't even know you make that prediction until it either pays off or it doesn't.
I'm not arguing that there is no stress involved when playing survivor but I don't think it's as much as playing killer, which makes killer anxiety a more prevalent phenomenon.
The survivor experience is tied to your teammates. Even if some players dismiss this and act solely for themself, escape as a team or lose those are the only real options.
Any decent survivor is trying to discern the full game state even while sitting on a generator. I run bond to keep track of my teammates, have a real idea of where chase is, manage resets, go for a hit tank... The entire time I'm trying to stay aware of where generators have been completed and what sections of the map are likely without pallets. Should I stay on this gen or is there a more important generator I could be working on. Does the killer already have a three gen scoped out?
If someone goes down and is hooked am I possibly the closest or is it better for me to do something else. Is it even a good idea to pull now or can I wait longer so the killer is hopefully further away, would that be waiting too long and now the killer is going to come back to secure second or a trade?
You are making just as many predictions about how the killer is going to play. All further influenced by which killer and what perks they might have brought, which you also need to figure out. I could bring more info perks to make this easier but then I am giving up perks to help in chase, reset, or something else. All of this is possible with the info the game gives plus an info perk but only if you pay attention the entire match, even while on generators. In chase check spots are not 100% and you regularly need to play a 50/50, the killer just needs to win one to injure or down you the survivor has to win every time to stay up
Survivor is only the chill out experience if the player chooses for it to be that. If you want to up your chance of survival, even a little bit, the game quickly becomes a lot more stressful especially in solo queue and it's clear from the responses here that most are just choosing to not take survivor seriously. There is obviously nothing wrong with that but you also obviously feel more stressed on the side you are taking more seriously. You get to decide how seriously you want to take each role, on killer the only person that really effects is you, your opponents care but in a reactive way. If you don't take survivor seriously you are potentially forcing other players, your teammates, into a losing position with no way for them to have a say. The only way for the killer to remain in total control of every match would be to give them a 100% win rate.
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099246#Comment_4099246
"Efficient describes a person, system, or machine that achieves the desired result with a minimum of wasted time, energy, or resources."- the desired result of killer is killing all 4 people. it prefaces that you have to achieves the DESIRED RESULT with a minimum of wasted time, energy or resources. It doesn't say to change the desired result to make it easier to achieve/take less time to achieve. I'm glad I understand definitions because you sure as hell dont.
"Ya, this is a disingenuous argument, anyone that thinks getting the exit gates powered with two survivors left with more than a single generator left either misunderstands the game or is being intentionally delusional. I never said it was a failsafe for escaping, it is a failsafe for ending the match, otherwise what incentive does the survivor have to continue playing?" - The survivor has the "i queued up to play a game and so have to see it through incentive". Its why we punish leavers, because by entering a game, your agreeing to see it through unless some out of control circumstance forces you to leave (in which you take the leaver penalty and it only happens once). If you don't want to see a game through, DONT QUEUE UP. Its that simple.
"Hiding and doing totems and the like will fail and either way you are forcing two players to wait for your personal satisfaction. Its clearly just you wanting an easy 4k instead of actually having to work for it as intended. There is nothing fallacious about my argument, the killer feels entitled to a 4k and slugs to get it, wasting everyone's time in the process."- It won't fail. and its not an "easy 4k instead of having to work for it like intended", its survivors believing they are entitled to remove a killers right to a 4k they earned by stopping the survivors from completing gens and so need the out because how dare the killer get a 4k. Thats why hatch was added, because survivors en masse were like "how dare killers get a 4k, I deserve a chance to escape even if I've messed up all throughout the match, and if I don't get that Im going to hide and hold the game hostage". The hatch is a bi-product of survivors not being able to take a loss. And so killers wanting the 4k, aka a flawless win, is justified.
"Your interpretation is meaningless when taken against the actual facts of the game. When three survivors escape through exit hatch spawns, how did all four survivors end up on hook if you slugged for the 4k? Your entire argument boils down to "I'm not entitled its you your entitled" with zero substance behind it. You just think survivors are entitled and cannot stand me using that argument against you when its the actual logical statement when talking about slugging for the 4k. Besides we have actual statements from the developers about hatch." - Zero substance. Buddy, you've been saying your entitled to a hatch standoff. I've said neither side is entitled to either. Im saying just as you are entitled to your hatch stand-off, a killer is entitled to sweat for the 4k. Both are equally justifiable. Your the one who can't justify why survivors deserve the hatch stand off outside of "but why would a survivor continue to play".
"All of your arguments about touching other things while waiting for bleed out fall directly under the "all the killer has to do is patrol." You have already won and just want a 4k win instead of a 3k, that is entitlement, trying to turn the argument around doesn't change that and is frankly nonsense that isn't worth real engagement. For the record, I would be in favor of an endgame rework because I think the entire endgame is silly in most cases but until then asking that killers not slug for the 4k is just asking for basic respect and sportsmanship from my opponents."- my arguments do fall under the "all the killer has to do is patrol", your right, and all the survivor has to do is hide. Both can be true. Both can be equally valid statements. You are also being entitled by saying you want hatch standoff instead of being able to take the loss you got handed. YOU LOST THE GAME. YOUR ACTIONS UP TO THAT POINT LOST YOU THAT GAME. YOU DON'T DESERVE CHANCE AFTER CHANCE AFTER CHANCE TO WIN THE GAME AFTER LOSING. THATS NOT HOW ASYMETTRICAL HORRORS WORK.
If your desire is to win then a 3k is a win and slugging for the 4k is inefficient, you could get more wins in that time. If you define a win only as a 4k then that is on you and you maybe need to think about why you specifically need a 4k so badly.
If you don't want to see a game through, DONT QUEUE UP. Its that simple.
I DID STOP. Despite all the bull claims about killer being miserable I swapped over to basically only playing killer now and you know what happened? The game became infinitely more enjoyable because I stopped having to deal with entitled players like you. Anyone that thinks the killer experience is miserable is clearly expecting to win every single one of their matches, they don't want a fair match just winning every match and many like you can't stand that even a single survivor might escape, its the true entitlement in this game. You are not worth any more of my time.
Small edit: ya I went too far saying "anyone" and the like but my sentiment about the killer role remains, it is in a perfectly fine position (not that there are no issues) unless you go in expecting to win every match, some killers could use buffs but the majority are doing perfectly fine
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099234#Comment_4099234
"In what universe is searching the map for 4+ minutes to find the last survivor efficient? You could be in another match by that point. Not even remotely efficient, if you already know where the last survivor is then sure go for it but that isn't usually what happens."- efficient in the sense the killers job is to kill all of you. Slugging for the 4k stops 1 of you possibly escaping, so its playing efficiently in the sense of them doing their role.
"The intended way is clearly a hatch showdown in the matches the killer won, trying to claim otherwise is ignoring hatches existence as the failsafe for ending the match that it is. No one is asking for an escape, we are asking that hatch showdown occur as clearly intended."- The intended way is actually for you to come back and escape via gates. Its not a failsafe to get you out, otherwise It'd spawn at your feet after a set amount of time. Your stretching its role to justify your entitlement.
"When the killer slugs for the 4k the 4k becomes guaranteed 99 times out of 100, that's not working for it in any sense, hatch showdown is you actually doing something. Again no one is asking to be given hatch, just for it to be allowed to spawn in as intended so there is a real chance. You are just choosing to interpret things in a way that is favorable to you."- "when the killer slugs for the 4k the 4k becomes guaranteed 99 out of 100 times" thats because they don't hide and do a side objective every so often (like touch a gen for a few seconds, do a totem or open a chest) and stay away. and again hatch spawns when everyone's dead in some games, is that it "working as intended". No, I'm stating how your argument is fallacious and YOUR interpreting things in a favourable way.
My interpretation is: Hatch is a last chance given to survivors in a losing game. There is ample ways for a survivor to hide from a killer whilst they're looking for the 4k, and wait out the other survivors bleed timer to still have said hatch off. However, to act like the killer slugging to try and find you is entitlement in itself is entitlement because the survivor believes they are owed the hatch stand off. You have repeatedly stretched its use/meaning and used broad general terms and avoided being specific because you know the second you do It doesn't stand to scrutiny.
Your interpretation is: Game mechanics are a guaranteed right to every survivor, for a killer to attempt to deny the hatch is entitlement, even though there are multiple instances where you wouldn't be able to get a hatch standoff in which you'd be fine with (a 4 escape, all 4 survivors on hooks ect) . The survivors aren't entitled even though they are expecting the killer to not attempt to fufill their role as effectively and fully as they can (to kill ALL survivors, is the killers role. Not just 1 or 2, their role is to kill all of them) and the killer attempting to fufill their role to the full extent is entitlement.
I think you need to go look up the definition of efficient as well because that is not what that means.
Ya, this is a disingenuous argument, anyone that thinks getting the exit gates powered with two survivors left with more than a single generator left either misunderstands the game or is being intentionally delusional. I never said it was a failsafe for escaping, it is a failsafe for ending the match, otherwise what incentive does the survivor have to continue playing?
Hiding and doing totems and the like will fail and either way you are forcing two players to wait for your personal satisfaction. Its clearly just you wanting an easy 4k instead of actually having to work for it as intended. There is nothing fallacious about my argument, the killer feels entitled to a 4k and slugs to get it, wasting everyone's time in the process.
Your interpretation is meaningless when taken against the actual facts of the game. When three survivors escape through exit hatch spawns, how did all four survivors end up on hook if you slugged for the 4k? Your entire argument boils down to "I'm not entitled its you your entitled" with zero substance behind it. You just think survivors are entitled and cannot stand me using that argument against you when its the actual logical statement when talking about slugging for the 4k. Besides we have actual statements from the developers about hatch.
@Butterbeeblack said:
Survivors can use the perk “left behind”, keys, and their much larger view to help them find and escape the hatch fairly easy. Killers seem to be at a disadvantage when it comes to hatch escapes because of their smaller POV, and no perk to help them find it, or keep it closed when they do. Is there room to level that playing field?
All of your arguments about touching other things while waiting for bleed out fall directly under the "all the killer has to do is patrol." You have already won and just want a 4k win instead of a 3k, that is entitlement, trying to turn the argument around doesn't change that and is frankly nonsense that isn't worth real engagement. For the record, I would be in favor of an endgame rework because I think the entire endgame is silly in most cases but until then asking that killers not slug for the 4k is just asking for basic respect and sportsmanship from my opponents.
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099224#Comment_4099224
Slugging for the 4k isn't a waste of everyones time though, by definition its the killer playing efficiently.
" There is nothing entitled about wanting a match to play out in the intended way and that includes hatch whether you like it or not, trying to circumvent that is by definition entitled."- What is the intended way? If it was intended for the final survivor to always get the hatch why not spawn it under them as soon as the last person goes down? Its not. Its not intended for every game to have a hatch stand off either, otherwise It'd be hard coded into the game in a way to allow them to have it spawn under them before the last guy dies. The hatch is meant as an alternate escape wincon, its not guaranteed and expecting every game to be allowed it is also entitled.
" It cannot be the survivor being entitled because it is not their choice, the killer has decided that they deserve the 4k. As you said, that's not how games work."- it absolutely can though. Saying you deserve the hatch standoff is entitlement. The killer isnt forced to give it to you, so acting like they have to is entitlement by definition.
Entitled: "Informally—and often used disapprovingly—it describes someone who behaves as though they deserve special privileges or things without having to work for them. [1, 2]"- The killer still has to work for the 4k. They still need to down you. They still need to catch you before the other person bleeds out (which if you stealth and do side objectives its incredibly hard for killers to find you).
In contrast, you don't need to work at all to get the hatch standoff, in fact you could do little to nothing all game and still enter a hatch standoff. You are being arguably more entitled by expecting to get hatch than someone slugging so they have the opportunity to deny hatch.
In what universe is searching the map for 4+ minutes to find the last survivor efficient? You could be in another match by that point. Not even remotely efficient, if you already know where the last survivor is then sure go for it but that isn't usually what happens.
The intended way is clearly a hatch showdown in the matches the killer won, trying to claim otherwise is ignoring hatches existence as the failsafe for ending the match that it is. No one is asking for an escape, we are asking that hatch showdown occur as clearly intended.
When the killer slugs for the 4k the 4k becomes guaranteed 99 times out of 100, that's not working for it in any sense, hatch showdown is you actually doing something. Again no one is asking to be given hatch, just for it to be allowed to spawn in as intended so there is a real chance. You are just choosing to interpret things in a way that is favorable to you.
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099219#Comment_4099219
"No man, I just don't see any point in having this conversation again with another person that is clearly lacking empathy and respect for their opponents. "- says the guy who said I deserve toxicity because I dared to see your argument to the logical conclusion. Just because you debate like a 10th grader doesnt mean I don't have respect or empathy for survivors who get tunneled. In fact I've made multiple posts as of late surrounding how anti-tunnel and camp should be implemented in an attempt to casualise the game, but also that will mean efficiency on the survivor side needs to be looked at.
"if you can't understand what an awful gaming experience it is to be forced to sit on the ground so the killer can get their 4k win because the 3k win they have already secured isn't enough for them (entitled) then what's the point? Go look up the other thread we had on slugging for the 4k recently."- Its is equally entitled to expect the killer to give you the hatch showdown as it is for the killer to expect the 4k. These are equivalently entitled. And in fact, I added that the survivors should be able to abandon so they don't have to sit there. But you shouldn't be given carte blanche to a game mechanic just because its there. Thats not how games work. You don't get every gun at the start in tlou, you aren't owed extra money in csgo to purchase whatever weapons you want, you aren't owed an automatic farm bot in league to farm for you, these mechanics are all there, but they can also be denied.
Are you ok? No one mentioned tunneling, we are talking about slugging for the 4k. I don't think tbagging in exit is toxic either, just a waste of everyone's time, thus the comparison to slugging for the 4k. There is nothing entitled about wanting a match to play out in the intended way and that includes hatch whether you like it or not, trying to circumvent that is by definition entitled. It cannot be the survivor being entitled because it is not their choice, the killer has decided that they deserve the 4k. As you said, that's not how games work.
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099213#Comment_4099213
LMAO, has no argument so resorts to being petty.
Your argument was "X is in the game, so Team A deserve to use it. Denying team A the ability to use X is entitlement"
I then mapped that onto " powering the exit gates is in the game, by your logic they deserve to use the gates every game. Any attempt to deny that is entitlement".
If you want to flesh out your argument more we can have an actual back and fourth. Or have you realised how much of a dumbass a stance like that makes you look. You can change your stance, or flesh out your position and provide an alternative reasoning as to "its in the game" as to why survivors are automatically more entitled to hatch than the killer doing their job. Ill wait.
No man, I just don't see any point in having this conversation again with another person that is clearly lacking empathy and respect for their opponents. If you can't understand what an awful gaming experience it is to be forced to sit on the ground so the killer can get their 4k win because the 3k win they have already secured isn't enough for them (entitled) then what's the point? Go look up the other thread we had on slugging for the 4k recently.
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099209#Comment_4099209
I'm not the claiming entitlement on one side. Im saying if your definition argues that a killer deciding to slug to allow them to not reach the end game is entitlement, then any action the killer takes to prevent you reaching endgame is also entitlement since thats an intended game mechanic that apparently doesnt apply to them. Can you not see the fallaciousness of your own argument here.
Just because a mechanic is in the game doesn't mean you have carte blanche to use it, for example the end game gates. You have to power the gens to get the access to the gate. This doesn't mean your owed the ability to open the gates just because theres a scenario that you can.
The scenario where a killer slugs for the 4k is just as entitled by your definition here as defending generators or bringing slowdown perks to try and stop you getting to the end game, its just entirely unreasonable.
Are you seriously trying to conflate playing the match out with going out of your way to deny hatch? And people wonder where the toxicity in the game comes from. You deserve all of the exit gate tbags you get.
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099047#Comment_4099047
You aren't owed the ability to enter the endgame. Thats like saying "I'm owed the ability to open the gates". Your not. You aren't owed the ability to enter the hatch stand off, thats entitlement. The hatch was added so the last survivor alive had a way out, you are not the last survivor alive if the other guys still there.
You aren't owed a 4k, the one making the decision in the moment is the killer. Wild entitlement to arbitrarily decide an intended game mechanic doesn't apply to you. I'm not asking you to not win, just to let the match end.
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098990#Comment_4098990
Killers have repeatedly been told that they aren't allowed to abandon in the end game (after gates have opened) and have repeatedly been made to force survivors out of the game by the gates for no reason as some sort of bm ritual. This forum perpetuates that message repeatedly.
This is the killer version of having to wait when someones slugging for the 4k. Both of them nothing can be changed as they are right by the exit gates waiting to leave as soon as you appear or you are on the ground with no way up and you just have to wait. Both of them are unfun (even if you still have the small chance to get a kill/hatch if a survivor monumentally ######### up waiting at the gate and you have noed or something) and one of them has been repeatedly stamped on, so this is being given the same birth by the killers.
But no, its not entitlement to slug for the 4k. The entitlement is saying you deserve the hatch showdown because theres 1 person downed on the ground. The killer doesn't have to give you hatch/the hatch showdown, the killer is allowed to slug p3 to try get a 4k, because their job is to kill everyone. And I do think that the "if other teammates were alive we'd get the option" your talking about is the abandon feature when a gen hasn't been popped in 5 mins. You can't just abandon when your on the ground 1st hook with 3 other survivors are alive. And the 5 min rule applies in the end game and in this slugging situation.
Personally, I think the abandon feature should only be used when your held hostage for over a minute. So I'd be fine with "survivor X has been slugged for a minute, they can now abandon rather than wait for the bleed out as a killer wants the 4k". I also want a feature to abandon for killers after the gates have been opened. In the matches they can still get things, they will willingly stay most the time as an extra kill is and extra kill. But give them the option to dip rather than sit there waiting for the teabaggs.
Slugging for the 4k is the definition of entitlement. You are going out of your way to deny an intended endgame mechanic and forcing one player to have to wait with nothing to do all because you feel entitled to a 4k win instead of the 3k win you already have. Have I gotten them up and managed a two out before, yes but we are talking like twice in thousand of game. The survivors that wait in the exit gate to make you watch them leave are being equally idiotic, both are a complete waste of everyone's time.
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Don't bring back the stamina bar either, it has no place in this game.
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I did get to see a new gen spawn because of it, the Pizzeria can have a gen spawn in a corner of the ball pit room and I have never seen it before (sorry no picture). I also got a swamp with six gens all around shack, was wild. I think how nasty these can be got lost in all the concern over the morsels.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097997#Comment_4097997
I was just bringing up THAT aspect because you have ppl who haven't given up the game entirely, just 1 role.
Anecdotal but I know far more people that have given up on survivor than those that have given up on killer. When killer queues get long I see plenty of TTVs refusing to use Play While You Wait and never playing survivor. I personally don't play much survivor anymore because of how hard you need to sweat to even stand a chance of escaping (unless you face a killer that is clearly newer). I'm not trying to downplay stress on the killer side btw, I completely agree that it is the more stressful role but the people I actually see giving up one side are giving up survivor not killer.