FerrousFacade
FerrousFacade
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4120304#Comment_4120304
What app do you use to track these stats?
Official stat tracker, recent match history shows your last 30 matches, overall stats updated daily. Survivor matches where you abandon are ignored as if you DC'd and if you abandon a match as killer it will treat the survivors as escaping even if they were all slugged so take those with a grain of salt depending on how much you used those. No idea what the coming abondon changes will mean for the site.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4120188#Comment_4120188
My experience has been same on killer I don't remember losing with my regular duo. We aren't amazing either both playing on xbox. I would guess my killrate is above 80%.
But survivor has been more struggle this time. Most games we don't get to finish gens. So your experience is particularly intetesting. I have there and here few good runs. I think I try to now track my survivor games a bit to get better picture.
These are the survivor matches still in my match history, only 18 but gates got opened in at least 14 of them and survivor wins in 9 with 3 ties (I am assuming the DCs died). Everyone else I have talked to has mentioned survivor being a bigger struggle and I've seen some low escape rate stats so my experience seems to be an outlier.
8k
0
7k
2
6k
2
5k
2
4k
3
3k
0
2k
1
1k
3
0k
5
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Stats page is missing Oni in the individual character for some reason but they are being included in the totals, second most played.
I honestly don't know what's going on. All my killer matches have been with the same duo this time around but we played together in past 2v8s and didn't have near the success we are having in this one. Our worst match outcome is a single 4k and it was our very first match this run. If you count a 5k as a win we are on a 63 game winstreak (we played three more today), which is ridiculous since neither of us are amazing killers in any way.
But its not like I am doing poorly on survivor either and most of these escapes are not hatch escapes. They are primarily matches where the survivors finish the gens and open the gates. So I have no idea what to think and no idea what the hell is going on.
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@CodeInThePit said:
Were you the Steve Harrington survivor in the 2v8 match today at 8 PM against the two killers from Kazakhstan and Russia? I already mentioned this in the endgame chat, but regarding the Steve who complained about an alleged 1,000 ping and told the killers to "fix their ping" leave immediately before anyone could reply…
I’m going to say the same thing here: unfortunately, some players have high ping involuntarily because there are no servers in their region. Russia and neighboring countries have absolutely no DbD servers, and neither does the entire African continent. If they want to play DbD, they can only do so on the few EU servers available and have a high ping. It's not their fault.In an ideal world everyone would have zero ping and it wouldn't be a problem. However, in the real world someone has to suffer when a player has bad ping, that is just the unfortunate reality. It does not make sense for the survivors playing against a killer with high ping to be the ones punished for the killers high ping. No matter who has the high ping that player is the one that should have a worse experience because of it and its really simple why, you cannot manipulate your ping to be low but it is incredibly easy to manipulate your ping to be high.
The best way to get servers added to these locations would be for players in those regions to stop playing and tell BHVR they stopped because they couldn't get a decent connection. They have no incentive to do that if they only play killer and then get rewarded with bad hits. Further, rewarding them for their ping just further divides the community, I am convinced there are killers that don't realize how much they are being helped by their bad ping and just claim its the survivors that are bad.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119833#Comment_4119833
Except DBD isn't really like any other PvP game. Most people even if they don't know the math behind things can understand the point gun at the other team and shoot concept of most other PvP games. DBD is a bit more obtuse since looping is never explained to you even in the tutorial and only very recently did we get an in game resource for learning killer powers. Like nobody is learning to duck a chainsaw their first day unless told by a friend because that isn't intuitive.
I said absolutely nothing about killer skill in my post so weird to try and make it about that but if I had to think about it I don't think they would go all on one curve because killers are all different and they would all have different curves. Like it's a lot easier to be good at Ghoul than it is to be good at Hag so they would have completely different curves.
Lastly I'd say I care about survivor skill more than killer skill because it effects me more. If a killer is bad I get an easier game and I'm kinda fine with that. If a survivor is bad that screws me because my chance to escape goes down so of course I'm gonna care about that way more.
DbD isn't different enough from other games in general for it to be treated so differently. If you have moved a character in third person view in another game you have moved a survivor. Obviously there are specific things to learn about the game but that applies to every other pvp game as well. Looping was learned intuitively when the game was first released, you will have new players that figure it out intuitively. Given the game is ten years old you shouldn't even assume someone new to playing it has never interacted with it in any way before and could know looping from those interactions. Or you play killer, get out of the truly baby leagues, and suddenly you face survivors doing that and then start doing it yourself on survivor.
We absolutely could split killer skill into separate distributions but the exact same could be said about survivor, as survivor your skill against each individual killer can be different and could be graphed separately. However, for both roles you could create an aggregation of those scores to create a more general skill level. Since the killer gets to pick who they play and survivors don't get to pick who they face I would agree that the individual is more important for killer and the general for survivor but this is just another point in favor of survivor being the harder role. Its not enough to be decent against a couple killers you need to be decent against everyone. There are things that apply against all killers but most have at least something additional with some practically creating a different game. Killers have things that apply across killers as well but you only need to know all the specifics of one to do well.
Your final point isn't a problem with survivor skill though, its a problem with matchmaking. Its no different than someone complaining about pallets because they play ghostface, a valid complaint for ghostface, without acknowledging that blight is in the game. These are not problems with survivor capability, they are problems with something else in the game that gets blamed on survivor.
For the record, I am not even trying to say that killer is easy, I consider both roles to be difficult. But on balance survivor is clearly the more difficult role and I am tired of the general refusal to acknowledge this fact and I am tired of arguments that blame "bad survivors" for things when there are other systems much more at fault.
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@Xendritch said:
You're way overthinking it. The average survivor is bad because 1. Constant rotation of new players coming into the game and 2. The vast majority of players only interact with the game casually, most don't care to know hard numbers behind things or the weird ways killer powers or survivor perks interact with things. They wanna screw around with their friends for a little while and then log off.
I doubt survivor skill level would be a bell curve I would imagine it looks a lot more like an inverted yield curve where most survivors don't know that much or don't care to and then as it curves downward you have the very low number of experienced and competitive survivors that know all the numbers behind killer cool downs and obtuse mechanics like knowing to crouch Billy's chainsaw to make their hitbox smaller.
We are not the only online pvp game with a constant rotation of players (many of whom return not just new). The vast majority of ALL online pvp games consist of casual players who don't care about hard numbers and are just there to screw around and log off. Go look at the rank distributions in these games and you will see the same thing over and over again, an imperfect normal distribution that extends to the right (with astronomically small numbers of players at that top end). There is no reason those games would have that and DbD wouldn't. Someone could learn to crouch Billy's chainsaw on the first day they play. Being a casual player doesn't automatically make you bad, you might only play every so often but even doing that you could be weirdly good at it.
Besides, if survivors have an inverted yield curve and killers are normally distributed you are still arguing that survivor is harder to play and learn. An inverted yield curve would suggest that survivor has a near insurmountable learning curve, otherwise you wouldn't end up with the vast majority of your players at the lowest possible skill level. If you are instead arguing that both sides have an inverted yield curve you need to stop solely lambasting survivors for being bad and start actually caring about the killers skill and saying the same about them.
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@crogers271 said:
We're going to get a lot of 'my time on the forum type' conclusion posts over the next month, aren't we? I'm already thinking about my own.
Anyway, yes, agree with this, a few things to add.
1: Let's say you're a developer who, for whatever reason, wants one side to achieve their objective 60% of the time and the other 40% of the time. A pretty easy way to achieve that is just make the 60% side more straightforward ('easier'). You put more skill expression burden on the 40% side, and the 60% side learns and responds from that.
2: DbD is a very 'stompy' game. This is true I think regardless of the MMR level. If the survivors are better than the killer, than to the killer they seem unbeatable, but if they are worse they are so easy they seem awful at the game.
3: All of the stomps have thrown off what actual 'even' would like. The classic is the 'the game is survivor sided, look, they almost won this game'.
Completely agree, particularly number 2. This is a game of distance but the most important distance isn't measured in meters, its measured in the millimeters directly around the pallet or window currently being looped, those tiny increments of skill have a significant impact on the match as a whole.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/36OQRT81JR0O/1000015551.gif
(Jk, I love this #########)
(JK, I do love the outside, here is a Semipalmated Sandpiper (pretty sure) I saw on a recentish trip)
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119465#Comment_4119465
Sometimes the killer just finds the 3 other people repeatedly like it's really not uncommon to not see the 4th survivor until one of the survivors are dead. I'm not refusing to identify anything that's just how killer works sometimes.
And the killer is downing and hooking (or slugging) those survivors in a timely manner? Cause if not we are right back to player skill.
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@ForTheEntity said:
I really doubt that something as far removed from the natural world as a video game being played in a virtual world would follow normal distribution curves. There are a lot of crazy factors in play in DbD that are hard to quantify, especially on a single curve. If you had some real data graphed, then maybe it'd be worth entertaining such a hypothesis.
Nothing is consistent about DbD or its player base.
I think player churn accounts for the poor performance of DbD's player base. It's not like everyone who buys DbD follows a predictable skill curve. How many players actually get to >1k hours and actually get decent at the game before burning out?
The end result, by stating that "the average survivor is bad" you are arguing that it is more difficult to do well on survivor than it is to do well on killer, thus you are arguing that survivor is the harder role and killer is the easier role.
I disagree with this conclusion. I don't see how saying the average survivor is bad means survivor is more difficult than killer.
The average survivor AND the average killer is bad.
It is easier to handicap yourself as survivor. Queue up for a match as a SoloQ with a non-meta build and yes, it is harder to be successful than if you play killer.
Are you a robot? Cause if you are a robot you have to tell me, its the law or something.
The game is virtual but you (unless you are a robot) are a piece of meat piloting that virtual survivor or killer using your thinking meat and your bony finger meats. That leads us straight back to the natural world and normal distributions whether you want to think about your meat suit or not.
Anyone could fall anywhere on the skill curve, regardless of playtime. Every other game has some level of player churn as well yet the skill of their players also fall onto normal distributions. The argument that DbD players have never played another online pvp game is proven more and more true every day.
Since survivors face killers you necessarily must compare the two and in order for the average player of one side to be bad the average player of the other side must, again necessarily, be good. Believe it or not, I actually agree with the statement that the average survivor is bad but its because I think my conclusion is true, it is harder to do well on survivor than it is to do well on killer. This is backed up by BHVR's desired (and met based on the stats they share with us) kill rates and escape rates.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/472596/the-average-survivor-is-bad
Now, given that skill in DbD is made up of human characteristics, like reaction time, spatial awareness, the ability and willingness to cram a ton of worthless information about killer powers, maps, addons, and perks into your head, and the mechanical ability to execute on that information, you would need an incredibly compelling argument for this non-normal distribution to be true.
I have one.
And that's that the game is incredibly hostile to survivor players, driving most of them away. This means the only ones left to keep playing survivor are
A) New players who are fresh to the game and haven't been beaten down yet.
B) Die-hard try-hards that are determined to chisel out a win no matter the odds.
Thus you get a chunk of players on the lower end and a chunk of players on the higher end, but way fewer in the middle, as that's where the game is brutally unfair to the player and they're also experienced enough to see the pattern and decide to quit.
That's my theory.
This is certainly a possibility and definitely the best one I have heard. However, I think there are also counter-arguments against it.
Human perseverance being normally distributed. We are not the only game hostile to newcomers and mid-skill players, though we certainly are on the upper end of that distribution. In this game those mid level players can swap over to killer for the majority of their play while still potentially existing amongst the playerbase and playing survivor occasionally. A player can be a die-hard while sucking or be a noob but weirdly good at the game.
All of this and the general hostility could just leave us with an incredibly wide and shallow distribution, something like this.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119442#Comment_4119442
If you think holding m1 on a gen is equal to knowing how to use your killer power + understanding loops + understanding macro then I don't think we're ever going to agree what counts as thought and effort.
And why was that survivor able to just sit and hold m1 on a generator the whole match? Because the killer never bothered to pressure them off it or chase them in any way. You are refusing to correctly identify why the survivor was able to do that. Survivors need to understand killer powers, loops, and macro if they want to survive against a skilled killer. This is not a one sided thing and treating it as such is ridiculous.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119420#Comment_4119420
I have literally seen it with my own eyes there is no theoretical argument to be made. A survivor can do maybe one gen and not munch else and escape, you can say "well the killer just sucked then" which yeah sure but that wasn't the discussion being had it was about which side has to put in more thought in order to win more often.
Of course I can beat a bad killer without thinking (and the number of spirits I see in 2v8 hardly using their phase really drives the point home every time) but the moment its a skilled killer I need everything and if the other survivors don't lock in as well we all lose. As killer, I can absolutely beat bad survivors without thinking but once again the moment they are skilled I need to lock in. Both sides have to put thought in if they want to beat skilled opponents, you are just too biased to admit that. This discussion is inherently tied to the skill of the players in question.
And in your example, the survivor did a generator, whether you like it or not that isn't nothing its essential to the survivors escaping.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119289#Comment_4119289
I have literally seen survivors do nothing all game and escape, it's unserious to think killers can get away with anything similar to that. Again not complaining survivor has no depth not saying survivors never have to think but it's an absolute fact survivors can get away with doing way less if their teammates pull the slack which is a luxury killer does not have.
The killer becomes much more powerful in a 3v1. It's why tunneling is the most commonly used strategy. If the killer lost a match where one of the four survivors was in fact doing nothing then the killer suck at the game, at the very least in comparison to the survivors in that match (nothing wrong with being bad or learning by the way, but lets be realistic about their skill). There is no holding up slack for a bad teammate, there is no carrying a team, weak links get tunneled and then the rest of the survivors die. Your statement proves how much more leeway for skill you are willing to give killers over survivors.
Ratting for hatch can let them do nothing but the survivors don't win that match, the killer won and that survivor doomed their team for the pity floor door.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119165#Comment_4119165
I mean yes killers in general can't afford to play brain off (except you're ghoul) because they're alone and have way more to keep track of, 4 survivors and 7 gens on the map and they have to weigh if taking a chase is worth, if they need drop chase how to use their power and when it's all a lot to keep track of (unless you're ghoul) so yes in general killers I believe have to put more thought in than survivors who have teammates who can take pressure off them and is a role that in general is less mechanically involved.
Not to say survivors don't need to think at all they absolutely do and I wish more survivors would but survivors can get away with not thinking more than killers can speaking broadly.
Anyone still claiming that survivors can play brain off and be successful is lying to themself. How often do we have people complaining about "brainless" teammates losing the survivors the game. How often do we hear that doing this or that without thinking gets survivors killed. Then they turn around and claim survivors can win without thinking? The reality is that this game has become too competitive and too sweaty for either side to expect success playing that way. There is plenty of information survivors need to keep track of if they want to win and they don't get any of it basekit.
Mechanical simplicity doesn't mean a lack of depth, DbD is popular in large part because those simple mechanics lead to such depth, a day to learn the absolute basics, ages to master, its why so many people consider you a "baby" until you have 1k hours.
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@Strange_Quark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119226#Comment_4119226
so then y do people care? i dont care about fringe people. like if someone says the moon landing was fake, y would i even entertain them?
Negativity bias. Are you playing on console or PC? If PC you will occasionally get salt or worse in the end game chat, both sides get it but you are more likely to get it while playing killer simply because there are four survivors and that means you are four times more likely to run into someone unreasonable or someone that clearly needs therapy. These events are more likely to stick in someone's mind than all the times they got nothing or just a gg. Even on console you might get sent messages. Either way you can close chat/private your profile/use anon mode/your console equivalent to not see them. This is anonymous pvp gaming and sadly you will run into unhinged people at some point.
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@Strange_Quark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119210#Comment_4119210
oh, ive never heard that that seems dumb but it feels like youre being a little unfair and exaggerating?
While there are some people that do in fact act the way they suggest, they are a minority of players. There is an equal minority of killer biased players that act the same way towards survivor, both are ridiculous.
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@Strange_Quark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119188#Comment_4119188
i just dont like to lose. not sure anyone does. why should i not try to win more?
I just want to echo what @cogsturning is saying. The game has a lot of cheesy tactics that can make the game significantly easier for both sides but many of these tactics fall apart the moment you face real opposition. Both sides have serious pain points that the devs ignore or fail to fix. Getting sucked into the tribalism is the worst thing you can do for your enjoyment of the game, play both sides and find things you enjoy about both. Playing both sides will give you a better view of the game as a whole and make you a better player overall.
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@Strange_Quark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4119196#Comment_4119196
i thought swf stats werent much better than soloq. was my buddy lying to me?
Your buddy was correct, there are a lot of players that refuse to accept the reality of the stats we have been given. There are survivor winstreak squads that have insane escape rates and win 99.9% of their matches but we also have killer players that win 99.9% of their matches as well, with a specific blight player reaching almost 2000 wins in a row on three separate occasions. The person stating this is scapegoating swf for their losses instead of looking at their own gameplay and trying to improve.
That being said, there are gaps in those stats that I would love BHVR to fill and I wish they would release stats more frequently as well.
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Had it for a moment, 4 killer games in a row with a 5 minute queue time between each. Might not have even noticed and gone straight into pwyw but had to step away and came back in the lobby. Something strange is going on.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118972#Comment_4118972
I'm not even calling it a skill issue, I'm just calling out a lack of basic sense from a vocal majority. At close range there's a delay before it can hit you, it's not getting dropped on a survivors head. Survivors have both time to see and time to move as long as you have room to move. Sometimes your gonna get caught because they curved and you didn't predict it, sometimes your funneled and then there's really is no hope to dodge, but a extreme, and I mean like 98/100 times, majority of the time survivors have the chance to dodge.
This is my primary problem with what they are saying, they see complaints from survivors about judgment (or any other killer) and immediately jump to those players having a skill issue but when they do well against a that same killer no consideration is placed on how skilled the judgment they faced was.
I agree people do this way to often, however there's that other side of the coin. I've seen good judgements face good, or at minimum cautious, survivors and the judgement is called having the skill issues because they couldn't catch the survivors. Basically it seems the losing side is always the skill issue. What I'm just saying however is that most people are calling judgement op while survivors have, to quote the above, "playing with their brain off issue."
The delay decreases the longer the beam is held up to the point where it can basically be placed on top of you and hit (this is obviously quite difficult). Otherwise I do generally agree with you. I do think its much more common to claim survivor skill issue than the other way around but accept that it could just be personal bias.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118946#Comment_4118946
I want to show you why I think Xendritch is atleast somewhat correct.
One of my favorite killers is Artist. She also has map wide sniping ability, it's also by default visual across the map (albeit not as long) and with a large audio cue. The amount of times I get that first swarm from across the map is "yes". Survivors have ample time to not get swarmed and get a warning that I fired, if not exactly where 24/7, from the distance im talking about. This isn't as impactful because I need to double tap and people generally get the hint the first time, but now imagine if those hurt first time.
That image is basically Judgement. They have MUCH bigger tells yet people aren't getting the hint that when you hear or see the big light, don't be a sitting duck and move. Move randomly at that as this one WILL hurt. I get it's not possible to dodge every time, we're human and a smart player might surprise you with a trick or 2, that's pvp. I get that facing Judgement is a lot different than 90+% of the other killers, that's why I personally like facing Judgement while others don't. I get that people might think it's uninteractive, hell that's even fair as they're basically tossing things at you and all you do is dodge 24/7. But what I DON'T get is the fact that people call Judgement is op, oppressive, broken...you get the point. There's warnings and a very simple counterplay.
The best judgments are not just going for cross map snipes, they can hit you from close range with effectively no way to dodge. Even the snipes can be incredibly difficult to dodge if the judgment is good at setting them up and curving them in the right way. I agree that some players have skill issues, and anyone getting long range sniped while the judgment isn't zealous has them, but I rarely see that applied to killers. This is my primary problem with what they are saying, they see complaints from survivors about judgment (or any other killer) and immediately jump to those players having a skill issue but when they do well against that same killer no consideration is placed on how skilled the killer they faced was.
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The perk must track hooked survivors. Removing that would mean no way to stealth for a hook rescue and incentivize staying near the hook. There is a reason BBQ gives aura only away from the hook. I do think the haste could be higher.
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@Xendritch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118915#Comment_4118915
Ironically I got Judgement this morning, once again only went down once. I'm fully convinced a survivors playing with their brain off issue.
And how was the judgment playing? I'm convinced people wouldn't admit a killer played poorly under any circumstances. Either that or they are just giving them far more leeway than they are willing to extend to survivors.
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118819#Comment_4118819
I agree 100% with the impact of the scenario example you provided, but DCs are far less common than abandons so I don’t believe they have a huge impact on the official escape rate stats. Of course I could be wrong because BHVR refuses to share data that would help us clear up the debate. But it would take a huge number of matches with DCs to significantly skew the official stats (I’m not talking about the stats tracker page - that’s a whole separate discussion) and as much as I think DCs are still too common, they aren’t common enough to have that kind of impact.
If we had any official stats showing that average escape rate is truly lower than 40%, I would be fully on board the “we need to buff survivors” train. But I haven’t seen anything to indicate that the 40% average still isn’t true for the overall player population. I’d love to see contradicting data if anyone has that to share.With the number of times the phrase "DC Epidemic" has been thrown around I don't know. I didn't see it as often as some claimed but I also see people saying they see it practically every match. Recently I haven't been playing a ton outside of events. I did share the most recent stats we have been given in another post but they are nearly a year outdated at this point and were practically exactly on 40%. Given the changes over the past year it isn't unreasonable to assume those rates have gone down.
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118826#Comment_4118826
You’re asking me things that are inherently subjective. I’m not asking that of anybody - I’m simply asking them “do you actually play killer?” and “how many hours?” which isn’t something subjective that can be debated. I honestly don’t even care what their kill rates are because the fact that most don’t even answer the first question tells me everything I need to know. For the players that share their stats, like the ones you mentioned above, I respect their opinions even when I disagree because I at least know that they are taking into account how buffs to one side will negatively impact the other.
I’m not trying to deny that anyone has a bad experience playing survivor. Many of my solo queue games are miserable, though it’s far more often due to bad teammates than the killer being too oppressive. A lot of people come here and claim that their side is too weak and other side too strong and demand buffs for their side/nerfs for the other (it happens with “killer mains” too, although not as often). I’m trying to understand who is actually considering the negative impacts to the other side and who is not. It’s not any more complicated than that.
Given a bit more time and effort I could even do this with a video of the site being refreshed, it would even have the correct url. Just run a website locally with copied html and the desired modifications and an update to the hosts file so that the stats page url resolves to the local site. I like seeing other players stats because I love stats on this game and it gives me a view into their experience that could be different to mine but I can also get that from what they type out. Both have to be treated with the same skepticism of anything on the internet and there are valid reasons someone may not want to share their stats.
You say bad teammates but I think many players say that without actually looking at their own gameplay and have become conditioned to do so by killer main streamers that do the same thing. I've been jumping around to random streams watching the PTB and saw one semi-prominent killer main moaning that a teammate wasted ~15 seconds following them and trying to heal them with their healing build (the heal took moments). That same streamer spent multiple minutes circling both the top and bottom of Gideon looking for a hex totem, the streamer contributed a grand total of maybe 50% of a gen, a hex cleanese, and three mediocre chases. The healer played far better than them but the streamer blamed the healer more than themself. If I see a TTV in my lobby I will watch the match back from their perspective whether teammate or opponent, its wildly common to see them standing around doing nothing while blaming their teammates.
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Meant to include this here but it went into a different thread.
We haven't actually been given the official overall escape rate for quite a while at this point. Unless I am missing a post these stats are the most recent and were released alongside specific stats for South America. They cover a time period from Jan 1, 2025, to Dec 31, 2025. This is before Henry, Jason, Judgment, Diminishing (which hit survivor harder), and a slew of other killers buffs. In the same timeframe survivors got Five Moves Ahead and very little else substantial that hasn't been taken away or is currently being taken away. Given that, I fully expect the escape rate has dropped since then. This is also not including deaths from matches with any DCs in them (and we still don't know for sure about abandon).
@Philscooper said:
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(original reddit post : https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1rafofm/we_got_stats_today_well_sort_of_the_brazilian/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
keep in mind that the first 5 images/stats only take into account for the brazil region. not worldwide
(most used killer, most used survivor, most used killer perks, most used survivor perks, deadliest killer at 500+ mmr)
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118815#Comment_4118815
Even if 4e and 4k are most common, the average survivor is still escaping 40% of the time - there’s no way around that fact. DCs and abandons don’t impact that number. This boils down to players’ expectations about the game. Some survivor players feel like the game is unfair because they’re not escaping often enough. Some survivor players are escaping at below the average rate because they’re just not that good at the game. After all, every game has a skill curve and a good portion of players will be below average. The same goes for expectations and skill curve on the killer side. We see plenty of complaints here from killer players who feel like the game is too survivor-sided. They are just less frequent because the game has far more regular survivor players than killer players.
BHVR has to balance the game around the entire population of players, not just players on the low end of the skill curve who feel like the game isn’t fair for the side they prefer to play because they’re not performing as well as they think they should.I don't think you understand. Lets say a match is going south for the survivors, but no one has DC'd. After being slugged for the 4k (not enough to abandon) and out of sheer frustration with that situation, the slug DCs. That is a 4k match but the match result gets totally thrown out and isn't included in the official stats. That inflates the official escape rates. It doesn't have to happen late in the match either, any match with an early DC is also not included in official stats, the ones that show us the 40% escape rate. If you also think matches with an abandon are not being included in the official escape rate then things become truly dire, most matches the killer wins include at least one abandon right now.
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118758#Comment_4118758
Survivors are escaping 40% of the time. It has been that way for a long time, unless someone has brand new data to share that proves otherwise. What does the escape rate need to be for the survivor experience not be considered “horrible?” Killers are getting on average between 2 and 3 kills per game, which at least to me feels about right for a horror game where escaping isn’t supposed to be guaranteed. If the experience is really so bad, then why is the player count still at historically high levels? Obviously it can’t be all killer players, so plenty of survivor players are still here having fun.
Matches with a DC are not included in stats. While I would certainly agree that those stats should not be included for balance reasons they are very much part of what you experience when playing survivor. Unless matchmaking is going to stop placing those players in the same lobby as you its part of what you experience.
We also have zero confirmation of how BHVR treats abandons internally. I would hope BHVR isn't treating them as escapes or ignoring them but we do know that the stats page ignores them and they have had issues sending out stats to players in the past so it wouldn't be a total surprise if they get thrown into the "DC" bucket.
2 or 3 average but that isn't the same as most common match outcome. Personally 2k matches are the least common outcome with 4e and 4k being the most common.
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@SpyUA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118670#Comment_4118670
Reading the aura's of players is not at all the same thing as reading the auras of static objects.
Double standards...
being able to run directly at a survivor instead of having to find them first is absolutely making the game easier, how would it not?
being able to run to yellow aura and pressing space instead of having to use your brain and think where is the material is absolutely making the game easier, how would it not?
It does make the game easier but you still need to chase the survivor, seeing pallets and windows does actually help in chase which is the a much more important interaction than just finding the survivor, the killer still needs to chase.
If you think one is hand holding than don't tell me the other is not hand holding, it is just double standards at this point. Personally I don't care much about elusive.
That isn't a double standard. Reading the aura of survivors is directly telling the killer where their objective is. Reading the aura of a pallet or window just lets the survivor have a chase instead of running to nothing and going down for free.
A ton of the roster can punish run to yellow → press space. That can get you hit against nurse, huntress, executioner, twins (if victor), trickster, nemesis, artist (with setup), knight (with setup), xeno, chucky, unknown, lich, drac, springtrap, henry, jason, judgment. Deathslinger and Doctor can also possibly get you depending on when you get there/the pallet size. Legion, wesker, ghoul, chucky, and krasue can just vault after you. Trapper and hag could have it trapped. Myers, Bubba, demo, oni (in power), blight, nemesis, knight, and singu all have options for shredding through any pallet dropped and more if you count add-ons. A whole bunch of killers could just beat you to the resource or down you before you get there.
To me it just looks like you are scared of actually having to put in a bit of effort to down the survivor and want it handed to you for free.
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118669#Comment_4118669
I think you have strayed too far off topic.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/70Y4Y50ZQ4RU/break.png
The current anti-facecamp range is 16m and it does its job of preventing facecamping until the gates are powered. Increasing that range to 24-26m without making other changes to the system would create major problems.
- Area of a 16m circle: π16² = 804.25m²
- Area of a 24m circle: π24² = 1,809.56m²
Anyone else see a problem here?
I already stated that I don't think the anti-camp range should be increased. I do think more killer powers should be disabled around the hook. Given the size of the maps, no I don't think the existing range is a problem.
However, you are trying to use a video to claim that the existing anti-camp is problematic and "abusable." I am pointing out that the killers in that video stayed near the hook which correctly triggered the anti-camp because they are camping. That is how the mechanic works and the killers not playing around that is a mistake on their part, nothing forced them to be there. If the killers stopped constantly falling for pebble it wouldn't have worked. This is not an "abuse" of the system in the same way that a killer three genning isn't an abuse of the fact that there are going to be three generators remaining when survivors are down to one repair before the gates are powered, they are how the mechanics work.
Finally, with any content creator video you need to remember that this is literally how they make the money they live on. They are going to ham up whatever they think makes it more likely for you to click on their video and then watch it through to the end. If they stream the attempts you will see all the times it didn't work, then the video will just show the times it worked and I have seen this be as bad as 25% working, 75% failing but youtube will still only see the matches it worked.
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@breadistheguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118667#Comment_4118667
Not only did you not read my post correctly, but you also did not fact check yourself either. Basekit bt is 10 seconds (down from 15), not 5. Off the record let's you have 40 seconds (almost half a gen worth) of endurance. Borrowed time passively mends your deepwound if the killer hits you while otr is active, which I would argue is way better than what it was before (outclassed entirely by otr). Now it let's you take 2 endurance hits of off hook if you have otr, dh, and can loop the killer for 30 seconds. Shoulder can force this setup onto the killer, because the person that uses shoulder becomes the tunneling target. You did not even mention the second survivor build I said with shoulder, plot twist, and ds after using shoulder the burden.
Maybe re-read what I wrote. "And five seconds off unhook protections." I am saying that they took five seconds off the unhook protections, because that is what they did. Maybe before you claim someone else didn't read make sure you read yourself.
Off the record let's you have 40 seconds (almost half a gen worth) of endurance
If you do absolutely nothing to progress the game forward. Borrowed time was better against a killer returning to hook than off the record because of the additional time you got the speed boost and the additional endurance. This not extending the elusive was actually a good thing because it makes the killer much more likely to hit your endurance. Otr elusive effect doesn't matter against a killer with eyes on you. Passively mending does nothing unless you also have dead hard and requires the killer to hit you right off hook in the first place, this is useless 99% of the time. Most killers going for a tunnel don't hit your endurance they just stick to your back until it runs out, completely useless unless the killer sucks.
Shoulder can force this setup onto the killer, because the person that uses shoulder becomes the tunneling target.
The person that shouldered was exposed before the change and will be broken after the change, in neither case do they get endurance without dead hard or some other perk in play. Borrowed time only mends you if you take the hit with endurance, useless.
You did not even mention the second survivor build I said with shoulder, plot twist, and ds after using shoulder the burden.
??? Where? You don't mention this anywhere. Did you even read your own post?
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118645#Comment_4118645
What does that matter?
What matters is that they were able to weaponize the anti-facecamp system to be able to unhook themselves. This is certainly not an intended feature of the anti-facecamp mechanic.
Is three genning weaponizing the fact that the match is going to come down to three gens left? (and is far more in the killers control than some players are willing to admit). The killers skill matters because you can't balance a mechanic around brainless drones making idiotic plays. People claim survivor is balanced around brainless drones but any decent killer stomps all over those players.
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@breadistheguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118610#Comment_4118610
Ok but the only strictly anti-tunnel perk that was nerfed was shoulder the burden, and with the other survivor perks that were reworked, it is still super useful.
Borrowed time is getting reworked to uselessness as well, its anti-tunnel. And five seconds off unhook protections (elusive is not a fair trade for that). And before this off the record was nerfed. How much easier do we need to make this braindead tactic?
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118644#Comment_4118644
I mean, if your team is about to die but you haven't been hooked once, then I'd be nice for you to take aggro.
If not, then it's more likely, that they are gonna die just for you to get out alone and unharmed.
That sounds a bit ratty to me...
Except there is no taking aggro for survivors. Sure you can body block and take a hit if the map geometry allows it but absolutely nothing forces the killer to chase you instead of looking for someone on death hook. All of this takes time that you could potentially be using to sit on a generator which might be exactly what your team needs to escape. So long as that player is contributing to the team in some way, which includes generators, they are not being a rat.
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@ForTheEntity said:
It's been demonstrated that skilled survivors already can abuse the anti-FACE-camp mechanic the DbD currently has.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4b6HSI9XzU
Extending the range would just lead to:
- more abuse of the mechanic like this,
- punishment of entirely innocent killers, and
- slugging.
So how would it improve the game?
And what about this video makes you think these are skilled killers being tricked so egregiously? The fifth time one fell for pebble?
I do think anti-camp is fine as is.
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@JohnNemesisMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118494#Comment_4118494
Gonna ignore a few things from your post not because I want to but to save us both from another wall of text, so I'll just answer the last paragraph.
Looping is just something you're expected to do, there's no better way of putting it. Unless you just joined the game, survivor should know that, yes, they will have to go around tiles to stall a killer as long as they can. Its not something they'll just be able to avoid always, they may be able to make the killer drop the chase, but its no guaranteed.
Yes, people will go down because of things like not knowing that Nemesis can extend his whip, or that Slinger can shoot through narrow gaps, Pyramid Head's ranged attack isn't cancelled if he's stunned. But there shouldn't be something tipping the scales to the survivor side because a teammate wasn't familiar with a chase. You can't ask to make the game to do something about teammates that could or not be bad other than more proper matching making, or ways for them to better understand the game more.
Let's say BHVR implemented extensive tutorials on how to loop and a practice ground that could be used to practice against various killers. It wouldn't matter because there would be no way to force someone to use it. I don't have a problem with casual players existing but so long as matchmaking can place those casuals on my team I am forced to deal with it. I can either accept that I lose solely because of matchmaking, always play in a four man SWF, or just stop playing survivor. Only the most casual of players are going to be OK with option one but they don't play enough to maintain queue times and if they started to they would run straight into the same frustrations. If someone does want to keep playing that means going with option two. The logical outcome remains pushing everyone other than four man SWF out of the survivor role.
There could be a way to make this casual player fine amongst less casual but that would mean some sort of overhaul to allow every survivor worse than the killer to die while the ones better than the killer survive. I don't see a way to do that which won't be screamed out of existence before it leaves the PTB. It would need to address the fact that tunneling can leave the match in an unwinnable state for all survivors but that is the primary reason tunneling is guarded so vehemently. I have also seen slugging for the 4k defended far too many times to believe we wouldn't see complaints about the number of times matches would end in a 2k even if that individual killers kill rate didn't budge.
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@JohnNemesisMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118465#Comment_4118465
"HVR doesn't provide enough stats to say how used any of these were outside of the top ten."
BHVR may not but Nightlight is a good reference for the popularity of perks and killers. Pop specially went from about 25% pick rate to about 5% around the 6.1.0. patch by the time the nerf dropped. Even if Nightlight doesn't account for the whole community, its a good enough indicator. You can also check the same thing happens to all the perks I mentioned. The moment the nerfs came, the usage in them dropped significantly. Unless you want to argue that they're lying about the stats, I don't see how else you can prove that nerfed Pop the Weasel was somehow in top 10 during its nerfed era.
And the perk has the name, and it is the way that it worked literally because of Otz. You know what he also said? That the perk was only meant to be activated once because the whole point of it was to prevent hard tunnelling at 5 gens. The perk can still do that, but now its no longer able to always force a 12 hook game. I never claimed being banned from comp automatically made every banned perk there strong, I just was claimed it wasn't useless you like you said.
"The killers I see most often could not care in the slightest about a couple extra pallets."
Sorry your experience was bad, that doesn't change the fact that the majority of the cast is affected by the pallet density update.
And let me elaborate on that, stealth is a risk. No matter how stealthy you are, there's a chance you get found. You could hide for the whole game, that could work, maybe even be useful for you team, but its not a guaranteed. Some killers are just better at spotting survivors like Doctor, Nemesis, Lich, etc. Or the player may even be used to dealing with hiding survivors by now. You're going to need to learn to loop more than you're going to need stealthing.
Nightlight is bad data that doesn't match official data, nor can I go back to even verify what you are claiming and I am not going to pay nightlight or register with them or whatever I would have to do to see that data. Its unofficial, voluntary, and easily manipulated if a single bad actor chose to do so. It isn't trustworthy and never can be because of how the data is sourced.
Otz suggestion was also a basekit mechanic that's usage was hidden from the killer until they hooked the targeted survivor a third time and the hook stage wasn't transferred until that moment. His suggestion would also be to have perks activate as if it was a real hook on the other survivor, which is idiotic. Sure this person isn't tunneled out but the killer was just rewarded for taking the easiest chase they could, that is bad design. The immediate response would have just been, welp I guess it takes four hooks to tunnel someone instead of 3 and continue doing exactly that. Maybe they renamed the coming perk to match but even Otz has outright stated that he had nothing to do with the perk. This is just something that happens sometimes where two places have similar ideas at around the same time, it happens with movies all the time.
Sorry your experience was bad, that doesn't change the fact that the majority of the cast is affected by the pallet density update.
I feel for lower tiers I really do but that doesn't change the fact that I and everyone else have to face the high tiers far more often than the low tiers and the high tiers just don't care. Your platitudes mean nothing if you are going to keep pushing for survivor or pallet nerfs instead of rebalancing killer strengths to a more even level so that pallets can be more balanced for everyone. Identify the real problem and fix that first.
As I said, you are partially correct, a survivor cannot totally avoid looping but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to stealth first and waste the killers time that way before needing to loop, that has skill expression too. The problem is requiring every survivor to solely be good at looping and not accepting that some players simply won't be as good at memorizing map layouts, a perk slot is a fair trade off to let them stand a chance once they are found and doesn't stop them from being great at stealth, they are separate skills. I'm not asking them not to improve, I would love it if they would, but that takes a significant amount of time with the sheer number of maps and killers in the game. Plus some players are casuals that never will be good and that goes for both sides. However, its really only a problem for survivors because of matchmaking placing those casuals on their team. Killers cannot be negatively effected by bad teammates in 1v4. So long as matchmaking prioritizes speed over fair matches this is going to be something the game must account for, again many killers face a team with one bad survivor stomp because of that player and then label the whole team bad. If your goal is to push everyone but four man SWF out of survivor then keep moving in this direction, that is the logical outcome of the continued changes.
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@JohnNemesisMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118427#Comment_4118427
Nobody used nerfed Pop, nerfed Brine, nerfed Overcharge or nerfed Ruin due how little they did. They've been buffed out of uselessness but still in weaker states that they were compared to before. Overcharge and Call of Brine can no longer be combined due Diminishing Returns, while DMS has had multiple nerfs and now can no longer be combined with Pain Res. Thrill is getting nerfed, which affects Ruin because those two were often combined together. Quad slowdown was mostly had Corrupt and DMS in the mix because the perks that affected gens themselves weren't all that useful. Just because you don't agree with them, that doesn't mean it was creator propaganda.
Shoulder the Burden was a mistake. Otzdarva created every aspect of the perk before its inception, from the name to the yellow hook counters, yet was added with none of the downsides because Behavior didn't have any foresight in the Houndmaster update. If the perk was useless as you claim, it wouldn't have been banned in tournaments. Do No Harm was the straw that broke the camel's back due it being another healing perk when the healing meta going very strong.
Pallet density was absolutely a survivor boost, and I don't know what world you're playing unless the every killer you match against was Nurse, but almost every killer felt pallet density update and became one of the biggest talking points of the game.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118426#Comment_4118426
"Most killer issues can be solved by simply picking another of the over 40 killers. Basically nothing effects all killers unless they change 3-vault window blocking or bloodlust. Survivor has no such luxury."
You're going to tell me that out of 150+ survivor perks in the game, you're out of options because Sprint Burst, Vigil and StB got nerfed? Mentioning bloodlust and 3-vault blocking also doesn't work. If these two mechanics were just outright removed, it would only affect the most bottom tier killers who literally cannot press M2 without sacrificing their chase like Trapper, Ghostface or Hag. They would got from bottom tier, to even more bottom. Pallet density was absolutely the most universal killer change of killer as of late and still affects a vast majority of the cast, including affecting Bloodlust too that you just talked about.
BHVR doesn't provide enough stats to say how used any of these were outside of the top ten. These are claims with no evidence to back them up. You can still combine them, one just gets diminished. DMS was nerfed specifically because of its interaction with pain res, given another patch or two you may see it buffed because of the removal of that interaction. Thrill is a side grade in every situation other than the one where your hexes are instant cleansed but that is a problem with hexes themself, old thrill was problematic because a part of hex balance is them being cleansable and thrill made that near impossible on some killers, if you want to blame something for this its once again the strong killers that can easily defend their totems with thrill. Slowdown is slowdown it doesn't matter what form it takes, its still quad slowdown stacking.
Shoulder is the only significant change to tunneling survivor has gotten in a long time. It wasn't a mistake and was conceived before Otz made the video with the idea because of how long things take to develop in this game (at least it seems that way based on the timeframe for minor changes). Its strong if the killer is tunneling but then its doing exactly what it was designed to do, prevent tunneling. The only other scenario I have heard of it being strong that makes sense is the killer having two hooks on one survivor and them currently on hook, one on two others, and the fourth that shoulders with no hooks before the shoulder. Even then only at low gens where no one reasonable is going to fault the killer for taking someone out. If there are a high number of gens still up it sounds like the killer is rolling to victory, shoulder or not. That scenario could easily be solved simply by making shoulder deactivate if the killer has a hook on at least three survivors. So tunneling or a single incredibly niche scenario that I cannot possibly see coming up often and easily resolved with a minor change.
Do you know what else is banned in many tournaments? Human Greed, This is Not Happening, Genetic Limits, Low Profile….. Compies ban things for a variety of reasons, are you going to claim any of those are strong perks because comp bans them? In shoulders case they ban it because they want to push gameplay to focus around a tunnel out. They could easily make other choices. Personally, I think its an incredibly boring choice to make and makes some matches incredibly bland to watch.
The killers I see most often could not care in the slightest about a couple extra pallets. Maybe if those killers didn't exist you would have a point but they do and survivor must be balanced around facing them otherwise they become auto-win buttons. Some killer players might have additional issues with them but thats on them not the pallets. I personally have not noticed a significant difference unless I am playing a low tier like ghostface but as I already mentioned this is a ghostface vs blight problem first and a pallet problem second.
@JohnNemesisMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118436#Comment_4118436
"Pushing looping as the only thing survivors are allowed to do (as we have begun seeing directly in the dev notes, straight from the mouths of killer content creators btw) dramatically hampers the possible tactics survivors could employ."
What?? Looping is not a choice a survivor can select whether he does or not. Looping is incentivized because it will eventually happen if the Killer f—ing finds the survivor, he's not going to drop chase because the survivor didn't feel like looping. A survivor HAS to at the very least be decent at looping because once a killer focuses on them, it'll be the only way they can effectively help the team, is by stalling the killer in the chase for everyone else to do gens. Rat behaviour is when someone constantly hides, taking no risks and doing nothing until they escape or get hatch.
And there are still ways of stalling killers aside looping, like going for sabos and saves, which at the same time also helps your team. But those will still require you to loop the killer, if the killer spots you before the save for example. It literally is the basic gameplay loop.
You are entirely missing the point but partially correct. Looping is not a choice, IF you get found. The basic gameplay loop of survivor is get on a gen, killer approaches, respond in some way, most choose looping as their response because perks that promote any other way of responding have been nerfed to uselessness or have become unviable because of perks/addons on the killer side, particularly aura reading in the case of stealth.
If you are good enough at stealth and actually had perks to assist it could be possible to avoid the killer entirely or have ways of losing the killer and never need to loop based on stealth skill alone. I personally would find that incredibly boring but have friends that left post distortion nerf because it was their preferred playstyle. They enjoyed being in the spooky atmosphere doing gens under the killers nose but every patch solely pushes looping as the only option for survivors and nerfs all other tactics and we never get perks or items that innovate new options, killer gets new options every time a new killer is released. Give a player good at stealth shoulder the burden and they can even contribute a hook state without ever being found while still contributing to gen progress. This situation is what I am directly referring to as having heard people claim is rat behaviour, the most selfless act you can take of giving someone else your hook state while stealthing and doing gens → still a rat according to them.
If BHVR were more creative with perk design we could have even more options than just stealth or loop as the response to the killers approach but we just get the same perks with minor differences every time.
Saves and sabos are usually a waste of time against any killer not playing on auto-pilot and more likely to throw the match than waste the killers time.
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@JohnNemesisMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118365#Comment_4118365
No, the whole deal wasn't that WoO made people win, is that people can't do the most basic function of the game that is looping the killer. Emphasis on HoodedWildKard's post:
"Bad enough I personally rely on windows to run a passable chase. But now I'm going to see a considerably larger portion of any random survivors I get matched with also being unable to run a consistently decent chase."
Literal definition of crutch. Not being able to do a basic gameplay without a perk.
The most basic function of the game is sitting on a generator, not looping. Pushing looping as the only thing survivors are allowed to do (as we have begun seeing directly in the dev notes, straight from the mouths of killer content creators btw) dramatically hampers the possible tactics survivors could employ. Stealth hasn't been viable for ages and is becoming even less viable with the nerf to self preservation following in the footsteps of distortion. Why? Because killers demand the game handhold them over to their next chase instead of using game sense to identify likely locations a survivor will be and then use their own eyes to find them if they are hiding.
Some people will not be good at looping or memorizing map layouts, there is nothing wrong with that and they can still contribute to the team in meaningful ways. They can even contribute a hook state via shoulder without ever being in chase (somehow I have seen people claim this action is "rat" behavior which is a great showcase of how few ways these people think survivors should be allowed to interact with the game). If BHVR were more creative with their perk creation and stopped nerfing every other viable strategy to take on a killer we could (and really should) have other options than looping but killers demand that survivors loop and only loop while they themself can play however they damn well please, no matter how unfun it is for the survivor side, problem is BHVR is clearly willing to listen to killers on this and not survivors.
In order to help them with the area of the game they struggle with they are sacrificing one of their perk slots. That is a fair trade off. WoO has never caused me to lose a chase, it just allows someone to actually have one in the first place instead of running to nothing. This has never been a problem for me because I can deal with a real chase and don't need survivors to go down for free.
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@JohnNemesisMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118248#Comment_4118248
I don't pretend Pain Res is bad but I don't think its the perfect gen regression perk either. It was the best through a process of elimination for the longest time because all others sucked. I don't need to write a wall on this, its not the point.
As for the nerfs you mentioned, that was during BHVR's health update where they threw spaghetti on floor and begin slipping on it everyday. Shoulder the Burden was added, pallet density was added during time, Syringes got removed instead of rebalanced, Healing was its strongest due Do No Harm's released which later caused diminishing returns, Myers got turned into dashslop, Krasue was a balance nightmare, the game was in its buggiest state ever. That was just a bad time for everyone.
Regardless, yes, survivor was more affected than killer in this update, but that wasn't always the case for previous ones, and the update tackled perks that were unhealthy for the game. Saying only survivor ever lost stuff as the game continued updated is just ignorance, specially since you just constantly said the stuff killer did lose wasn't a big deal because you didn't feel like it was, then you call me selective.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118250#Comment_4118250
He said he wouldn't want to play SoloQ due the recent perk nerfs, not me. Regardless, WoO isn't removed, just divided into two perks. Five Moves Ahead is still pretty good given it will show the closest five pallets with no distance limit until you drop the first one. By no means the perk is unusable, if you're having that much trouble, equip those two.
Pain Res is the most used perk on killer because it is the strongest perk in a class of strong useful perks, not through some process of elimination or lack of options, those are lies pushed by killer biased content creators. If this class of perks wasn't strong it wouldn't be so common for killers to equip four of them. The last change to every perk you mentioned as nerfed was a buff. You are reaching back to 6.1 for most of these nerfs, four year ago. A patch that saw the introduction of basekit regression on kick and an increase to gen times, the perks were nerfed alongside those changes for obvious reasons.
Pallet density update went through multiple iterations, the final of which saw more pallets but reduction in the length of many and the nerfing of most main buildings. Claiming this was some universal survivor buff is ridiculous. Shoulder the Burden is a useless perk in most situations and one or two where its actually strong. Or we could be honest and just accept that the most complaints about shoulder are coming from tunnelers where shoulder is doing exactly what its supposed to and some people can't stand that. Do No Harm is outclassed by botany in most matches because you are not always healing someone with hook states and it doesn't work on yourself. Anytime we get perk usage stats if a healing perk shows up its always botany. Diminishing wasn't added because of Do No Harm, it was added because of a multitude of perks that stacked.
None of this was a major boost to survivor in any way. Pallet changes are harder on the lower tiers but that is a problem with the existence of the high tier characters, not survivor. Now we get this "meta shakeup" that will change some of the perks we see killers pick but primarily it will be swapping this piece of gen slowdown for an even stronger piece of gen slowdown while they still go for a tunnel out that has been made easier by numerous nerfs to anti-tunnel. Some survivors might change out their medkit for road life but quickly realize that a medkit is more consistent. Vault speed perks will be tried and then dropped as users realize how often they go on cooldown and how often the killers ping means they just don't work. This is why people are quitting, survivor hasn't changed in ages and this patch clearly shows how little thought they are willing to put towards the survivor role.
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Anyway to wrap up, how would you solve the quad slowdown problem?
I would be fine with the other posters suggestion of an exhaustion style effect for them. However, I think if you truly want to move away from them and really change the meta the best course of action would be to delete from the game every perk/item/etc that effects gen times from both sides and add basekit regression of some form to hook events.
Since that is still going to leave tunneling as incredibly strong we should pool survivors first 8 hook states. No one can die until 8 hooks have been made but it doesn't matter which survivors are hooked, after that any hooked survivor dies. Anytime a survivor is hooked for the first time gen progress is stopped until survivors collectively repair for X charges, anytime a survivor is hooked for a second time apply the same effect but for a smaller set of charges. This gives a consistent bonus for hooking everyone twice but still allows you to hook the same player over and over again if you really want to, you would probably lose for doing so but at least the targeted survivor would get real opportunities to learn chase.
If compies don't like that and want to keep playing the way they do they can use the old system in customs.
And how would address certain perks while keeping in mind that survivors get 16 and killer get 4?
By delving into 16 vs 4 you are going against the stated intent of your title. You are comparing killer perks to survivor perks and claiming that the 16 survivors get across the whole team are comparable to the 4 the killer gets.
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@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118347#Comment_4118347
I mean they seemed like real people mmr jank aside, one even gave me snacks at the movie theater.
And 2 instant dc’d because I marked them with ghosty
Edit: 2 more games and both sub 3 minutes another with ghosty, I though maybe killer might play a role so I tried xeno and was also very quick
And 2 instant dc’d because I marked them with ghosty
If I wanted to surreptitiously add bots to matches this is how I would do it for at least some of them. A couple of bots that "DC" the first moment they have to interact with the killer. A couple others that act like bad players with a few real players thrown in the mix.
Otherwise I would guess a weird queue bug that will probably go away when you restart the game.
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@JohnNemesisMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118218#Comment_4118218
If you're thinking about never touching soloq again because the biggest crutches got nerfed and your teammates cannot handle the meta shift, it just makes it sound like you relied more on those perks than the people who actually used them.
Your argument is nonsensical. This is not a game you can carry a team in, having a single bad link is all it takes to tank the entire survivor team. Matchmaking doesn't work well enough for a match to consistently have everyone at the same skill level. Killers just win and then claim the entire team was bad and go on to claim there is rampant survivor skill issue, which is equally nonsensical to anyone that knows what a normal distribution is.
The moment matchmaking turns on killers and gives them a team better than them its instant "survivor sided" "crutches" and the rest of the crying comes out. The only question is which "crutch" you're going to complain about the next time you're not winning as many matches as you feel entitled to or which one "forces" you to tunnel.
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I understand the fun claims but a match of 2v8 is usually around 10 minutes so even an unfun match doesn't take that long to end. Usually if the killers are hard teaming every down they lose, so long as the survivors stick to gens hard enough. I play with a duo and we rarely team a down intentionally just serendipitous moments where we happen to patrol to the same area or one forces the survivor into the other. We are calling out where things are happening to each other and run over if there are a lot of survivors present but actual double teaming is rare. Its just kind of part of the mode to me even if it can be a bit frustrating in the moment.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118079#Comment_4118079
and if survivors cant figure out where one of 30-40 pallets might be on a map, that is a skill issue.
The reality is, this isnt a perk mostly used by beginners. its great for beginners absolutely, but its extremely powerful with people who also know how to effectively use pallets and experienced survivors will sue the knowledge on every single pallet, perfect pathing and make a chunk of the roster struggle to catch up. because if its impossible for the surv to run to a spot without a pallet and pallets are chained close together than non mobility killers or range killers spend large amounts of their time holding w to catch up after having to walk horizontal to get around a pallet while the survivor moves vertically, and by the time you make up the distance, the surv can just repeat the process.
beginners arent able to do this. i mean they CAN but they dont have the skill to do that. however, im not in baby lobbies as killer or survivor aside from matchmaking being what it is, and its still guarenteed to exist at least 1-2 times in 90% of my lovbbies.
Blindness became one of my main tactics to use in matches and it absolutely destroys even experienced players because its just a run to yellow perk. there is no accidentally reaching an ubrokenpallet. there is no accidentally running to a deadzone.
Meta for a reason mate.
Maps can spawn in hundreds of different configurations, unless its a guaranteed pallet spawn you can't know with certainty without checking first and there is simply no time to do that. Even if its a guaranteed spawn we have had bugs in the game for over a year where some do not spawn, I have had Shelter Woods main spawn neither pallet multiple times. Even with guaranteed spawns a teammate could have already thrown one. That's before we also look at the reality of 30-40 pallets.
- Its not actually that many pallets
- Not all those pallets are near generators that need to be worked on
- I don't exist across the map at all times, I am in a specific spot, at a specific time, doing a specific thing
- Many of those pallets are not strong, at best they can be pre-dropped and played for a small amount of time but at some point you need to move to something stronger
- Chaining resources requires responding to the killer at the right time or already having enough distance to do so, otherwise you just get hit
It is a perk mostly used by casual players and newcomers, you are not providing any evidence for this not being the case just claims about non-mobility killers as if people are unaware that they are weaker than mobility killers (who you need more pallets against, hmm I wonder if its pallets or this discrepancy that is the real issue). That is reality not the made up scenario in your head about "experienced" survivors. No one is pathing perfectly 100% of the time. No one is playing perfectly 100% of the time. I simply don't believe you on your blindness claim, they might have hours in the game but that doesn't make them good or non-casual players and they could have last played years ago and need the perk in order to relearn spawns since they have drastically changed since they last played.
Meanwhile there is real evidence of WoO being a weak perk. Look at the builds of the hardcore winstreak squads, do you see windows in them? No, because it isn't strong enough for them to use and they know that any killer capable of beating them isn't going to hindered by it for even a second.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117487#Comment_4117487
no it didnt. knowing where every single pallet is you can use to plan out your pathing to be optimal and make sure you have access to every pallet outside of your LOS is objectively not only useful for new players, and players used it for pallets primarily, not windows. windows you can pretty easily predict based on tile layout.
take away woo from p100s and they start running around like headless chickens. this perk has been carrying people and been something they rely on for a very long time. It has literally been in the top 5 surv perks for many years. how is it in the meta but only useful for beginners?
Because a lot of people play the game casually or are just bad at memorizing the layout of the 40+ maps we have in this game. Its simply not reasonable to expect a casual player to know all of this. Then we move to solo queue who can't know with certainty whether or not a pallet has been dropped in an area or not without a perk. This is all on top of any beginners trying to learn and experienced players that find it comfy. Killers do not need to know exactly where a pallet spawned until a survivor drags them over to it and can run Zanshin if they do want to know in advance. If a survivor can't find a resource they just go down. These are the causes of its high pick rate, not strength. If a killer is getting run for a long time its not because of windows its a skill issue on their part.
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Windows should be totally reverted. I have not used the perk in ages but it was essential for learning the game. It along with deja vu are the perks I recommend to newcomers as their best bet for learning the game. Unless we are doing this in a custom match this already requires them to unlock a survivor and level them up. Needing to also unlock and level another significantly more expensive survivor and take up an additional perk slot in order to get the same effect is just going to push newcomers away and I am already extremely hesitant to recommend this game to anyone, particularly if they are interested in the survivor role (killer role I can still recommend). At the very least the perk should not be going on cooldown after a slow vault, medium/fast only.
Overall, the survivor perk changes are nearly worthless. I considered listing them all but there just isn't anything worthwhile to say about them (StB and Borrowed Time changes speak for themselves on BHVRs stance on tunneling). Some of the buffs are OK, I guess, but do not incentivize me to alter my builds in any way. Survivor builds are already heavily constrained by the need for anti-tunnel, anti-slug, an exhaustion for higher tiers, and some info particularly in solo queue. The changes suggested in this patch alongside the killer changes (which are much more significant changes) has solidified my decision to drop the survivor role in its entirety outside of 2v8. Enjoy the queues.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117625#Comment_4117625
Its only up when the person is actually on the hook and you are 24 meters away from it, then it deactivates. It is not going to be good.
24m is not very far, if someone is unhooking they haven't been on a gen to go get that hook, that is a gen regressing unless they were paired up (at which point people are doubling gens). You can force someone off a different gen in the meantime leading to at most a single gen not regressing. If the survivors unhook quickly then the killer is still nearby leaving them vulnerable to a tunnel (and this perk becomes infinitely stronger in a 3v1). If the survivors don't unhook quickly you get the effect and can come back to trade/secure since its still monstrous shrine, its lose lose for the survivors and win win for the killer.
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@Massquwatt said:
I don't think WoO has been a beginner perk for a very long time, it's just been the meta perk. Splitting it between itself and Five Moves is probably the best outcome and a whole bunch of generic perks also got some really nice buffs now so that's always great. But personally I'd rather more beginners run de ja vu than windows because the formers teaches them not to three gen which is arguably the more important knowledge to have first.
Three gen doesn't matter if one of your teammates gets killed with 3+ gens up. I agree that gen efficiency is fundamental to winning on survivor but it doesn't matter if you go down fast. I was always recommending both windows and deja vu for beginners.