FerrousFacade
FerrousFacade
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I think everyone is ignoring the "Poison can also be thrown at survivors" line. If a hit on that causes enough hinder and is readily available to the killer this could become killer sided really quickly.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089039#Comment_4089039
Power struggle would like a word. Unless the surviv9r crawls away from the pallet, it makes grabbing them literally impossible.
Prime example (time code skip, so it should jump to relevant part). Also note this predates last survivor mori.
One flashy save and body blocking for injured survivors and you instantly assume sweaty SWF? Followed by not displaying the loadout screen at the end? You didn't get power struggled a single time, you're just assuming they have it. Do any of these players even have power struggle? Are they even playing together? I really don't think they are.
If this was a squad they would have called out that you were camping Trevor's hook. If these were players going for power struggle plays they would have intentionally died on pallets and they never do. Finally, at 4:53 you say Trevor is exploiting with an extra health state, you hit Ada on the hook. I know it can be hard to be critical of our own matches at times, especially during, but I suggest you re-watch this with a more critical eye. It likely wasn't a squad and I don't think anyone here has power struggle.
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@TropesDaMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089299#Comment_4089299
i generally feel this is a balanced chapter, and feel that we shouldnt turn Jason into a krasue mishap
Counterforce meta???
The "Krasue mishap" was caused by the ridiculous overbuff they got going from PTB to live. This is the real amnesia from what happened with Krasue.
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@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089246#Comment_4089246
perhaps it was naive of me to think that the community could actually come together on something for once.
I’m a staunch believer in multiple things being things being true at once and the 2 cakes thing. The game has overpowered S tier killers fact, the game has underpowered low tier killers fact, there’s a bunch of garbage bottom of the barrel perks that bvhr doesn’t touch fact, dbd isn’t new player friendly still fact, maps sway violently between killer/survivor sided fact, bleed out slugging and hard tunneling are boring as all hell fact.
If the community as a whole acknowledged these facts and the devs addressed them one at a time, Us vs. Them would be dead and buried years ago.
The game has overpowered S tier killers fact, the game has underpowered low tier killers fact, there’s a bunch of garbage bottom of the barrel perks that bvhr doesn’t touch fact, dbd isn’t new player friendly still fact, maps sway violently between killer/survivor sided fact
You could very likely get agreement on all of that.
bleed out slugging and hard tunneling are boring as all hell fact.
You will find many people that disagree with these though and if any attempt is made to replace them they better be incredibly favorable to the killer otherwise you will just have a repeat of the Krasue ptb where changes were scrapped a mere two days after the ptb launched. While most of the previously mentioned statements effect both sides these second ones largely only "harm" survivors and there are killer players that will refuse any attempt to have them removed. Hell, we had a thread here only a little while back that just wanted to handle slugging for the 4k and there were plenty of people defending it there.
I honestly wish I could see it the way you do and that we could just look at it as a way for the community to have a bit of fun together for charity.
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@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089202#Comment_4089202
it’s a win win, if they engage it gives them an opportunity to earn some good faith in the community and charity gets paid.
You’re letting the loud minority stop a good thing
I think you are placing too much faith in this community. The majority of content creators are killer mains (not an us vs them, a statement of fact) and many of their followers take whatever they say as gospel. Those followers repeat that to everyone they know and we get the content creator group think we have now. No matter the outcome it will be used as confirmation of BHVR favoring survivors.
The creator that issued the challenge has videos titled "The Straw That Broke The Killer's Back," "DBD Killers Can't Keep Up Anymore," "This PTB Proves Behaviour isn't Listening," "The Crime of Playing Killer Correctly." I don't think they are arguing or issuing this challenge in good faith in the first place. Just compare those title to how they did in their most recent stream, 1 loss on killer, the rest wins.
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
It’s the same predictable response that we’ve gotten with every recently-released killer. Lots of people complaining that he’s too strong because it’s only been 24 hours and they haven’t fully mastered counterplay yet. So, also predictably, he’ll get nerfed hard and never seen again like Krasue and Henry.
Including Krasue in this when she was wildly overpowered on release? She is still plenty strong, people just realized she was boring to play with little skill expression after she stopped being truly overpowered. She was challenging nurse for strongest killer in the game, the nerfs were warranted. I still see Henry plenty as well.
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@Slurp_Ramen said:
we need someone to offer up 1k for the reverse as well.
Have 4 devs play against s tiers or use bad perks to get them buffed and knock the s tiers down a peg
Buff pebble
It would be foolish of BHVR to engage with either of these challenges. A showcase in support of charity is a nice idea but is the realm of content creators. No matter the outcome, BHVR loses.
- Playing as low tier and loses or is unable to get to ten wins
- "BHVR sucks at their game"
- "Look how weak these killers are, this proved it and they still won't buff them, survivor biased"
- If they instead win those matches
- "The survivors they went against were bad, BHVR is low mmr"
Going against s tier killers
- They win
- "these killers are not as strong as people claim"
- "swf is op, we need these killers to face them, nerf swf"
- They lose
- "four man swf and they still can't win, BHVR sucks at their game"
Its lose lose, best course of action is to not engage.
- Playing as low tier and loses or is unable to get to ten wins
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The fact that they want them to win ten matches in a row just proves how ridiculous this game is. Imagine asking a starcraft dev to win ten matches in a row or an overwatch dev or a league dev. You would be laughed at. Here ten wins in a row is considered nothing on the killer side yet they will claim playing killer sucks if any random player isn't able to get a small win streak. No one should expect to be able to win that many times in a row. Why are we not also asking them to escape ten matches in a row in solo queue? Because that would be considered a ridiculous expectation.
@Aven_Fallen said:
Mathieu Cote had this one game almost 10 years ago and yet people are still going on with this nonsense to bring the Devs to play in hope they get Buffs on Killers?
Especially when he doesn't have any real say in game balance. The guy's job is getting licenses for the game not designing killers or balancing.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088683#Comment_4088683
I think its map dependent. some maps just have like one loop near the gen, if Jason spawns at it you kind of have no where to go and you get hit does feel kind of boring (unless there is another tell rather then him spawning in) vs some maps that have two loop options near the gen so if Jason spawns at one just run to the other.
I swear the fog gets thicker when he is nearby but that could just be happenstance or some sort of confirmation bias on my part. Like spirit you can also see grass move but that is map dependent.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088495#Comment_4088495
That is statistically a good sample size, not opinion wise. It is not enough to say that the data set is invalid, you just want it to be. There's more of a likelyhood of bhvr just fudging the stats they give us than the idea that someone's gonna upload a thousand fake matches to skew the data.
No one's arguing that there aren't players that play a lot and are still bad. That doesn't disprove the point. Are you really arguing that on average players do not get better at doing something from doing it more? Like really? Is this where I just say the opposite of you and say survivors just can't accept their skill issues because the game doesn't make them? These statements are pointless.
I literally have more hours on survivor than killer, that isn't biased. You just don't agree with my opinion and calling someone biased is a good way to try and invalidate their opinion. 51% win rate(not kill rate) is still not the devs goal for balance.
I have evidence and sampling bias to show why it isn't a good data set, you don't have any arguments against that. Claiming that the official data set is more likely being manipulated, with no evidence, than the public voluntary website being manipulated just proves how much you are floundering.
I think there are plenty of players of this game on both sides that play a ton without improving, I have played against players with 10,000 hours that got utterly stomped on. The game actively makes survivors accept their skill issue, they die and lose. I have played plenty of matches as killer where I played terribly and still won, no reason for players that this happens to regularly to accept their skill issues, they come here and scream survivor sided when they lose a single match.
The devs have never stated a balance desire for win rate, only kill rate and a 51% win rate makes a 60% kill rate trivially easy to accomplish.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088365#Comment_4088365
if 4 man escape rates are 48% at high mmr then killer is heavily underperforming as kill rate should be about 60% and im terrible at math so may misunderstand this but that only 1-2 people should be escaping per match. 4 man escapes should not be happening almost 50% of the time so in that case that would indicate a survivor advantage.
Four man high mmr, a tiny fraction of matches played, not four man in general and obviously not solo queue. You are also assuming that a 50% kill rate would mean that a 2k is the most common outcome when it is likely the least common outcome. In my personal killer matches the most common outcome is a 3k (I don't slug for 4k), followed by 4k, then 0k, 1k, and finally 2k. I would love real stats on this from BHVR but I don't think they have ever provided them.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088484#Comment_4088484
Oh wow man 1 match and the other had 2! That totally changes nothing lol. Why in the world would we believe someone would create 1000 accounts to skew data? There's nothing to support this. It's just silly. I don't put complete trust in Nightlight but it's the best we have to go by for consistent data and 18k is a good sample size.
Engaging doesn't equal skill correct, but there is strong correlation with playing more and getting more skilled. I'm not trying to say this is skewing the kill rates lower than reality but I am saying that if they were going to be skewed any direction it would be much more likely to skew them in your favor.
I'm not ignoring any data. 51% shows the killers are not balanced where the devs want them, they are underperforming. I've engaged with all data presented idk why you're acting otherwise. This is also again mixing the two different balances I presented before. There's a difference between if the game is balanced in most matches and if it's objectively balanced. You're also referencing data on most/average matches and I already stated that in most matches it's going to be killer sided from players being bad. That's a different statement though from objective balance when it's actually good vs good. The irony of presenting data and then saying I'm not presenting data when the data your presenting supports my claims lol.
The data you just presented yourself does not support what you are saying. You're also trying to defend a point we agree on already. Like I said before, I already agree that in most/average matches it's killer sided since most players are bad. I'm only stating the game is objectively survivor sided, IE good vs good.
Its not a good sample you just want it to be. That one or two is enough to prove that the data set is invalid. People have done sillier things for smaller reasons, I am not saying that someone is doing so now I am saying it would be trivially easy for someone to do if they wanted to
Show me the study that proved a correlation between engagement and skill. There are plenty of very engaged players that suck, killers just can't accept their skill issues because the game doesn't make them.
That is a 51% WIN RATE minimum, not a kill rate, that is not under performing. You are actively not reading and just saying the data supports you. You are hopelessly biased.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088463#Comment_4088463
Why you got kills matters significantly more than just if you got kills. That's why this matters.
Technically we don't have have proof of even one, I was just being generous here. So I wouldn't really say "the fact". In the grand scheme of the amount in the data pool little numbers like that don't matter to any relevance anyway. I just find it baffling to believe that there's tons of super old matches people are uploading to skew the data for no reason. It's just illogical. I wouldn't say I'm ignoring selection bias, I'd just point out that the selection bias of people that would in fact upload their data are probably better players, ie skewing the kill rates UP, not DOWN. So if anything that bias would be in your favor. Claiming it diverges tremendously from official data doesn't make sense either as we realistically don't get much data from the devs. It's always very limited in scope and at best once a year if that.
"The stats show that even a solidly good 4 man loses more than they win.
Your refusal to accept that doesn't make the game survivor sided, it
makes you unwilling to accept anything that doesn't fit in line with
your personal opinion. "I never said I didn't accept that, which shows you aren't really understanding what I'm saying. You're reading what you want to see rather than what's actually being said to fit in line with your personal opinions. I never stated nor implied a good 4 man wins more than they lose. All I mentioned was how the games balanced. Losing more than they win also doesn't mean we're at kill metric for the devs balance goal. The irony that you haven't shown anything to support survivors being the weaker role. If you have some data without obvious holes I'm more than willing to look it over as well. What you accuse me of you are guilty of yourself. You currently have nothing to support your claims.
I literally had to go back a single month to find this, but thank you for being generous lol. And the month before that
But nope no proof at all, lol. Did you even look before typing that out? For all we know every single match in the data set could be a custom match or totally spoofed. You are putting far too much trust in a random website that can be easily manipulated. 18,000 matches? It would be easy for someone to create 1000 accounts and upload twice that many matches and make the site say whatever they wanted.
The selection bias is towards players who are more engaged but that isn't representative of skill, its also primarily english speaking, and then there is needing to know the site even exists in the first place. Poor sampling all around. Every time we have gotten data recently I have compared to nightlight just out of curiosity and they are not even close, official kill rates are always significantly higher.
You continue to ignore the data that shows killers win at least 51% of match overall, again at a minimum. If that doesn't show survivors as the weaker role I frankly don't know what does. The only piece of data you are willing to engage with is the 48% escape rate for high mmr four mans. That isn't killers struggling and it doesn't make the game survivor sided. Yet you continue to insist it does, that is you not accepting real data all while you don't present any data I can engage with, just statements with no evidence attached.
I would love more data from the devs and if they ever present data that killers are struggling I will absolutely consider it. Until then the data we have shows that killers are doing absolutely fine and wanting to change them to showing hook states when those do not actually correlate to how often killers win matches is just silly. How you got the kills doesn't matter when a win is based on kills and when it doesn't matter how you got that kill.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088450#Comment_4088450
Well even if we were to assume that change does not happen, and the stats are skewed by tunneling, it is still significantly more accurate than kills regardless. Not accurate mind you, just more accurate.
That data pool is actually an extremely good sample size for studies. A made up premise that people are sticking data on their to artificial skew the data to me is silly and there's nothing to actually support this.
The size is significantly larger than you believe in my opinion.
I would probably agree that the "average" match is killer sided in the sense of most matches are against bad players. IE skewed killer because of player skill, not game balance. However I'd also say the game is objectively survivor sided and to a significant degree at that. IE good vs good, and by good I don't mean 4 man swf on coms that are comp players. I mean just solidly good 4 man.
Now of course these statements have a ton of nuance that could skew it depending what killers or map we're talking about though. The difference between like Ghostface and Nurse for example is a completely different game.
It is far more inaccurate than kills, we literally define a win based on how many people are killed, not how many hooks they get. So long as these strategies exist and are prevalent they must be taken into account for how matches play out. Hooks don't better represent kills than kills do.
The fact that even a single customs match exists in the data set proves the data set is skewed and we can't even state how many matches in the set are customs, just that at least some are. You can't just ignore that and the obvious volunteer selection bias (amongst others) and claim good sampling. When they diverge as much as they do from official stats we can further dismiss them being remotely representative.
The stats show that even a solidly good 4 man loses more than they win. Your refusal to accept that doesn't make the game survivor sided, it makes you unwilling to accept anything that doesn't fit in line with your personal opinion. If you have some real evidence that doesn't have obvious holes that shows killers struggling then I am more than willing to look at and consider it but that data doesn't exist otherwise you would have presented it by now and not tried to pass off nightlight as representative.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088387#Comment_4088387
That's why if it were up to me I'd also make tunneling literally impossible, not just hard.
I don't think they're worse. They have no incentive to self select. You're references a very insignificant portion of the data for maps. That is only happening if someone for whatever random reason uploads very old data. Why they would even do that, much less a relevant amount.
There's a difference between balance for most matches and objective balance. Balance for what we see on average and objective balance being when it's actually good vs good matches which actually show true balance.
Unless tunneling becomes impossible it effects matches, match outcomes, and all stats those matches produce, you are effectively describing a different game than the one we currently have. Unless that happens hook rate remains a bad metric.
They are factually worse, making kill rates look worse than they actually are is incentive enough for some people and if you don't know what a selection bias is you probably should look that up, the basics are that the population using nightlight is unlikely to be representative of the entire population playing dbd. The entirety of the data set for the past month is 18,000 matches, steam players alone peak at above 50,000 players daily, that's more than 10,000 matches every 15ish minutes during peak time assuming everyone of them is in a queued match, which is unrealistic, but even if we say 5000 matches every 15 minutes you see that nightlight represents a tiny fraction of total matches played in a month and we haven't even included console players.
The balance at the very tip top of the game changes to survivor sided but we are talking about a tiny population of players and even then only when they are playing on comms in a four man. Queuing into public matches is factually killer sided.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088373#Comment_4088373
We already were given state on slugging by the devs and know it's an extremely small percentage of matches meaning the impact on hook stats by slugging would be very small.
Given bhvr is very hesitant to ever give us stats the only stats we have to really go by are Nightlight which are consistently month after month after month with the majority of killers in the 40%'s and basically none coming close to 60%. Now even if we go by the older official stats that YOU gave, that puts them at a 52% kill rate, far below the balance goal. So even the numbers that you used you've proven that they are below the balance goal. So you countered your own argument.
I think I've shown otherwise.
And yet tunneling also effects hook rates as it becomes significantly more likely you will get just a single hook on three survivors and three on one, hook rate - 6. So long as you define the killer win as 3k+ kill rate is going to be more representative than hook rate, instead of advocating for either of those we could just show a win rate, % of matches ending in 3k+ and get rid of all interpretation.
Nightlight stats are worse than the BHVR official stats. Players can self select which matches are uploaded alongside a massive selection bias for who uses the site. Its data set also includes at least some custom matches given that the map section includes map variants that can no longer be played in queue.
You have to go out of your way to just use the four man high mmr stats to get that 52% kill rate and ignore the fraction of matches those make up. You also ignore the stat for percent of matches that end with all generators getting completed, 49%, minimum killer win rate of 51%. Remember, exceptions don't make the rule.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088365#Comment_4088365
The game "balance" state that is aimed for is 60% KR. We are significantly below that. 60% KR is their balanced state.
I thought I said it enough but I'll type it again. There are issues with going by hook metrics as well, such as slugs, but it still fixes a lot more issues that arrive from going by kills. I don't understand why we bring up exceptions to why going by hooks is bad when I literally just typed that there were exceptions already, just that there are simply less than kills.
I don't know how more simply I can explain this. Even the flawed stats support my statements.
You simply state that hook rates have flaws, if we are going to consider if they could be a better metric we need to explore what those flaws are and here we have a scenario showing how they would be a significantly worse metric than kill rates, that is relevant.
Prove that we are not at the aimed for 60% KR, prove that we are significantly below that with real data. You can't because it doesn't exist.
No stats support your statements, you are just making things up and claiming it as truth.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088352#Comment_4088352
Yeah, the vast majority of the dbd playerbase would also disregard any evidence of balance using Blight as an example lol. This is pretty normal and standard.
Do you know the stats? Because they do not support this statement. Also the stats do not take into account a multitude of factors that skew them anyway to not be very reliable. Hooks rates would probably be a significantly better metric, generally speaking, even though that has some flaws as well but at least less.
I just completely disagree on your standard for when the game is survivor sided. The only time I think the game is killer sided is in a full solo queue match and on one of the more balanced maps like Coal Tower.
Every official stat we have ever been given has shown the killer being favored. The last time we got 4 man high mmr escape rates it was 48%, that is the killer winning more often. Or how about the ones that showed the number of matches where all gens were completed, 49% leaving killers with a minimum win rate of 51%. If 2k's happen even 10% of the time that leaves survivor win rate at 39%, killer sided.
Hook rates? You go for a full four man slug which would show a hook rate of 4 or less. Regardless of the number of times survivors have been hooked more than two of them dying is the killer winning, it doesn't matter how we got to that place especially if any change to make hooking more beneficial leaves those strategies intact.
You can't argue exceptions don't make the rule and then turn around and say but not in this case. Your opinion fails in the face of all real stats.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088342#Comment_4088342
Nothings arguing against itself here. I think if a killer is very good slugging is the better strat, depending on the killer anyway. For most killers its not though.
I've already explained this. Your example video is meaningless for the point here. Blight is an exceptions to all general rules. He is an exception to most statements, similar to Nurse.
Correct, and I explain this discrepancy based on skill.
You act as if this statements brought up randomly. It was only mentioned in response to your statement of "unreasonably high expectations on survivors". I simply disagreed and extrapolated why. As a general statement a game can be heavily biased in terms of balance against one side and the "weak" side still do very well when piloted correctly. Those aren't mutually exclusive. Exceptions don't make the rule. That would be like saying excessive sugar intake doesn't cause diabetes because I know someone who ate it excessively their whole life and didn't get diabetes. The rule is still true just because exceptions exist, especially when talking about something like a game with flexible variables like skill.
Meaningless because you have decided it doesn't count as evidence based solely on the killer being played and nothing else. I think you just have an outsized opinion on how good you are at the game. I think I am pretty meh at killer and have a 65% win rate (not kill rate) in the past 30 days, playing primarily as unknown and huntress.
So, since exceptions don't make the rule, that means the game is factually killer sided based on kill rates, win rates, and every other stat we have ever been given, right? Which means survivors cannot be getting handheld since the killer is favored.
The only time this game becomes survivor sided is when its four survivors who are all extremely good and playing in extreme coordination with each other while practicing together practically daily. This is an exception not a rule and if you need to go that far to consider a survivor good then your expectations are factually unreasonably high.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088323#Comment_4088323
That's your interpretation, not reality.
I literally did mention avoiding things, like literally lol. I proofread quite extensively, you just read what you want to see rather than reading it for objectively what it actually is.
I think you should read my posts again. As before, I did literally give caveats of it not working against good players. Like again, literally. I stated that it's only working if the survivors are significantly worse or making many, many mistakes.
I also think it's obvious to the majority of the dbd community that when we talk about balance killers like Nurse or Blight are complete exceptions to all rules and statements as they break the games balance. People don't usually need to add "except Nurse and Blight, I'm not talking about for these killers", it's a given.
I don't think someone understands DBD balance well at all if they think expectations are high on survivors in its current state. It's about as hand holdy as its ever been in the history of dbd.
You claim that hard slugging is difficult and go on to say you think its the better strategy for a good killer. I still don't see you saying anything about avoiding this. You literally mention having streaks going for hard slugs, are you arguing against yourself?
And again I show four incredibly good survivors losing to a full four man slug without making many many mistakes. If you consider these four players bad survivors your expectations of how good a survivor must be are factually unreasonably high.
While I agree that blight and nurse are exceptions to most rules you go out of your way to describe yourself being successful full slugging on killers that are not blight and nurse.
And there it is, the survivor is being handheld commentary. All while having triple digit winstreaks on killer, lol.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088300#Comment_4088300
Did I say killer was miserable? Or did you just fill in the blanks with what you thought fit.
Second, I also referenced streaks playing in ways that avoid things that someone might deem "miserable" per your words.
So yes, they do line up if you understand what I "actually" said, not a strawmanned version.
You - Proceeds to show a literal Blight game of slugging to back up their point rofl. This is like using Nurse to talk about game balance when Nurse doesn't play the same game everyone else is. Yes, we all know Blight is an exception to all rules just like Nurse. This shows literally nothing. If it were up to me I'd nerf the S tier killers even.
I have seen enough of your comments about how much killers struggle for it to be a fitting statement, even if you haven't used that exact term.
I actually run full slug builds on multiple killers you didn't mention very effectively. Namely Knight and Sadako, who also are both considered very low tier killers by most the community. By effective I mean a 165 win streak on Onryo and a 207 winstreak on Knight (this one's still going).
I don't see you mentioning avoiding anything, just that you play full slug builds, no strawman here just exactly what you said. If that isn't what you intended to state maybe you should proofread a bit more.
In general if a group is getting 4 man slugged they were either significantly worse players than the killer or they made many, many mistakes.
I don't see any caveats on your statement of it not working against good players and you even go into detail about how much success you have doing it on Knight and Sadako, clearly not S tier killers. The video shows four good players losing to a four man slug. You not accepting it as evidence is just further proof of how unreasonably high the expectations are on survivors.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088196#Comment_4088196
So you're correct there are many of those perks for killer as well. The problem is that most those perks have been nerfed extensively over and over and over to the point where the pros/cons list of what you get from hooking vs what they get has tilted further and further to where it's now not nearly as worth. Disproportionate value basically.
I agree hard slugging is very difficult especially if they have anti slug. Not that you said this, but many like to call hard slugging as a way to win if you're bad at the game which I very much disagree with. In general winning from a 4 man slug is very difficult as it requires a high amount of skill to juggle everyone. However if you're a good player I do think it's the better route. If you're not a really good killer then it's still probably not. Killer dependent as well. The more and more punishing hooking has become though it's becoming more and more the better route. In general if a group is getting 4 man slugged they were either significantly worse players than the killer or they made many, many mistakes. It isn't just something that an average player is going to see lots of success with, especially if the survivors are of equal skill.
I actually run full slug builds on multiple killers you didn't mention very effectively. Namely Knight and Sadako, who also are both considered very low tier killers by most the community. By effective I mean a 165 win streak on Onryo and a 207 winstreak on Knight (this one's still going). There are more factors that make this play style good than just lethality and map traversal. Onryo it's the additional side objective they're having to manage while also juggling pick ups and gens. It becomes a lot, especially if you also throw in a hex build for a fourth objective to juggle. Knight is extremely good at it because for one he has Grim Iron Mask for 75 second Blinds that you can aggressively spam which is essentially a perma blindness on the entire survivor team. Even with swf's on coms it slows down their pick ups a ton with just a bonus of turning off all aura perks which are popular. Secondly, being able to permanently keep 2 people in chase all game is massive. That means if even 1 survivor is down that means the entire team is off gens. I'm chasing one, guard on another and last is looking for pick up. If you ever have 2 down, they are one mistake from gg, since if I have 2 down and a get a guard on one and I find the other, it's over. Throw on top of this Town Watch's Torch and I'm also essentially perma Undetectable all game as well. Just pointing out that it works on more killers than you'd think. While Coulrophobia is good for what you're talking about, it's not even needed. I don't run it on any of my slug builds.
You - killer is miserable
Also you - I have a 165 winstreak and a 207 game winstreak on "weak" killers
Maybe someday you will realize that those statements don't line up with each other.
Here's four incredibly skilled players losing to a four man slug without making many many mistakes while playing sweaty in a SWF. Its group copy cat so they don't have full control of their builds but they have an expo boon and exhaustion on everyone. WGLF, Made for This, Unbreakable and the like would have helped of course but you can't prepare for every tactic the killer can choose to employ. Expectations of how skilled survivors must be are simply ridiculously high in this game.
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@MilkToast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4087856#Comment_4087856
I'm not buying it they have a history of use before hand and a company or band can just deny they used AI and just claim bad cgi to get away with it
A completely fair take and I am perfectly open to someone proving that it is.
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4087856#Comment_4087856
Yeah if anything I was just shocked by how hideous it was. I didn't guess AI, I thought it was just ugly.
Ice Nine Kills has made light of using AI before so I'm not sure what to think here.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088126#Comment_4088126
There are many, many, many articles on why using programs that make fake art by auto-stealing other people's art is bad, not to mention the stress that these data centers are putting on the environment and the skyrocketing tech prices the RAM shortage is causing. BHVR also had a message at the start of the stream saying there was no AI, so if there was, even from partnered content, that's not a great look.
Ya, regardless of if it was AI it just looked terrible and just seems weird how anyone could have seen it beforehand and considered it acceptable, especially with nurse running in it.
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088140#Comment_4088140
"AI doesn't create on its own."
It does though.
"AI does not strictly "steal" existing art, nor does it merely copy and paste; instead, it mathematically learns the visual patterns, styles, and concepts from millions of training images to generate completely original, unique pieces"
"Also, I'm confident the AI bubble will burst. It is very very expensive
and resource heavy to run, to the point where AI was initially being
sold at a loss so businesses would adopt it. The prices are now
increasing in order for AI companies to start making a profit, and it
will drive many businesses (particularly smaller ones) to drop it as it
becomes cheaper to just use man power again. So i don't think there's
any reason to embrace it, personally, as i don't believe it was sold
honestly to the public and businesses."I guess this is merely our opinions but I completely disagree. I think AI is going to be the biggest advancement the world has ever seen. I think you're underestimating its profitability for companies compared to its costs.
AI does not create on its own, it does not think, and has no awareness, the algorithms don't know what they are doing math for, they do not "learn" in the same sense that a person learns. Even calling the existing tools "artificial intelligence" is marketing and nothing more. You take away the input data (stolen from millions of people) and these tools are capable of nothing at all. Maybe some day we will create real artificial intelligence but it won't be anything like these tools. The existing tools in the hands of experts can do some incredible things but these are niche cases with heavy guidance, AlphaFold is the premier example of this. The data centers going up everywhere are not for those use cases though, they are for chat bots and image generators that have demonstrable harms both to human psychology and to the planet we live on.
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@BigKingWoof said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4087856#Comment_4087856
If by "Fictional story line", they mean when they used Gen Ai for the band's lore, that's really not convincing. Because they still used Gen AI and acted like jerks to the people who spoke out against them. They could have easily hired artists to make it LOOK like gen AI, but they still used it. So I'm not convinced that they wouldn't use AI again.
I don't keep close track on any social media so just learned about that whole fiasco yesterday. My immediate thought was exactly as you said, hire real artists to make it look gen AI and then reveal later that it was real artists and it would have been so much better. However, that doesn't make this video gen AI and nothing since then that has come from the band appears to involve gen AI. I do understand the skepticism though.
@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4087856#Comment_4087856
So it really was just CGI?
I am leaning towards it just being really bad CGI made by people that have never played the game and were probably just shown some models. If it is proven to be gen AI and therefore both BHVR and the band are lying to us I will happily pick up my pitchfork and join the mob.
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The bands drummer says it wasn't AI. I am not denying that it looked terrible but bad CGI has existed since long before AI has. I don't know how someone at BHVR OK'd the video when so much doesn't line up with DBD but there is no real evidence of it being AI.
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@TropesDaMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086525#Comment_4086525
May i ask whats your opinion of the Deputy Badge? im on switch so i havent gotten the choice to play Jason, and ive heard that too is a immense add on in terms of strength?
Its the one being reworked. The strength of the old version is that it lets you sidestep understanding killer macro (keeping some track of where each survivor is and which gens are likely being worked on) and just go directly to where you now know survivor are or at the very least to a gen that needs to get kicked. Omnipresent Evil makes it incredibly quick to hop over and do what you need to do at the location and the relatively quick recharge lets you go right back to something else as needed with the add-on providing information on where to go the whole time. In this sense its strong as an assist to learn killer macro but if you crutch on it you won't improve. Once you have killer macro down you were better off running something else most of the time and my personal preference was the brown that gives him the haste for longer.
Its new version seems stronger to me so long as you have that macro down, you don't need to leave Omnipresent Evil to regress a gen and can go right on to wherever else you need to go. Unless the survivors stop working on the gen and crouch before you get close, unlikely given how fast you move unless they do it the moment you enter the mode and at that point they are not progressing the gen, you know whether or not they are there and can Jump Scare as needed.
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@TropesDaMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086498#Comment_4086498
All i heard lately from my buddies who have pc were how strong the add on was
Yup, it was incredibly strong. You don't really get the full haste time because some of it is spent in after throw slowdown but 13% haste was massive and the "downside" of pushing the survivor further was regularly to Jason's benefit as it pushed the survivor away from resources or towards edge map if you were a bit more careful with when you hit them and that's before you consider the possibility of the survivor colliding with an obstacle and not even getting the extra distance.
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I'm buying Jason day 1. He was a ton of fun on the PTB and the only nerf that effects how I played is the one to coroner's coffee and it honestly needed a nerf.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086398#Comment_4086398
i think something that would help with these situations is that the game doesnt really make win conditions clear for killers.
With survivors its pretty easy, escape is a rather obvious inference. But with survivors the game doesnt really make clear that if 3 people escape and you die, you still win because its a team game. as such, a good chunk of people in soloq play selfishly (though in my expereince i think overall i encounter generally altruistic and team minded people)
With killers, the only people who know that 3k is considered by the game/devs to be a win is those who pay attention to the game to the degree you and I and the rest of the people that come and chat on a forum over it.
All the game tells you is that as a killer you have to kill the survivors. The inference is that the goal is to kill all 4. and killing 4 survivors is an obvious win because the game ends and there is no one else left to kill but i dont see anything in the game that really informs you that a 3k is still a victory beyond the end game phrase of "brutal killer" or whatever.
So i think alot of people dont feel they have a win or that its not a sufficient win unless they have 4 kills. I think that if BHVR were to make it clearer in game what the game considers as a win it "may" decrease people who stop at nothing for the 4k.
I dont think you can stop it permanently because people are as people are but if the game could reinforce to people more that 3k is a win or even gave another route to see your mori on survivor 3 instead of just 4 it could help as im sure a chunk of people slug for 4k specifically for the mori.
After sleeping on it though, i am less steadfast in my opposition to a slug dc in that situation.
- you are right that its super unlikely for the game to be won in that situation, my argument is based in that small chances are still chances and both as killer and survivor ive ended up winning games i thought were lost and that this game does have a quit when losing midset issue but the chance of winning in that situation isnt just low, its astronomically low and the payoff of gaining an escape would be so rare holding out a dozen times would over ride the rare payoff.
- in addition, the bot still exists on the dc and bots never give up or rat because they are tilted so i dont think my position holds up as well as initially thought.
- I think part of my struggles are that we really have a huge issue with attitude in the community and that its currently shifting more and more into the quit whenever im in a disadvantage and its ruining the game expereince for people. WHen I play killer, when i see a dc it literally kills most of my enjoyment for the match. its not satisfying to take down a bot and its not satisfying to beat a team thats at a disadvantage NOT because i hex the third sealed them and now none of them knows where the hooked surv is and he goes to stage 2 for free (lol) but because a player abandoned them and left them with a rock for brain bot thats bad at everything except for shattering all my Hexes across the map with a single flick of its wrist. as survivor, it feels horrible to know at 5 gens left we are basically a team of 3 and not because we played poorly at the start or the killer pulled off a strong start but because someone didnt have the decency to stick it through in a match they dont like.
- I despise legion with all my heart, he is the only killer i want to blacklist and never play against again and in every match with one i genuinely want to DC. i have zero desire to play, but i force myself to play and to try just as much as i do in other games because im letting down 4 other people who are in the game. If we could better address quitters on these other situations then i dont have an issue with abandoning in a 2v1 slug for 4k situation, but right now im concerned it adds on to an already DC over everything epidemic.
- and i think that one of the main take aways thats shifting my opinion is that i think you are right in that it doesnt hurt the 4th survivors experience for the 3rd to DC there. I didnt care about the killers experience so much (they still got the down and generally the kill) but i was operating under that framework of it hurting the last survivors expereince of no longer having someone to play with and attempt a hail mary or whatever. But after reflecting on my own experiences of similar whenever i have been the 4th all i think if anything is "that sucks" and i just continue my journey on attempting to escape. when im the third almost every time i sigh and roll my eyes and those 2 experiences are definitely weighted more on a negative experience to the slugged survivor than the 4th.
So in conclusion, i will rescind my points in that will i remain steadfast in not wanting further DC encouragement but i think the net gain is higher than loss for an abandon feature in that scenario. If BHVR does implement a change on this i just hope they have some other general pass on DCing (though i do not know what the solution is) and that they have the game make it more obvious to killers in game that they have won if its a 3k. But maybe we can debate this idea, but if BHVR made the End game hook not give so much protection to the survs it could make that play more appealing to killers. I do believe there still needs to be endurance and most of the hook protections in place but right now i think that there is so much safety involved on that final hook in EGC that many killers dont want to play that scenario. I think endurance should be knocked down to 5 seconds and shorter haste buff which i think will allow for a more balanced final play. Theoretically this would make this scenario less bad feeling to killers to where they would slug someone to avoid reaching a scenario they feel is too hard to win.
Though personally i enjoy end game hook plays and i have had some of my most satisfying game experiences in the 10 years ive played the game off and on for have come from the end game plays, i do think that currently end game hooks are really punishing for around half of the killer roster and it doesnt make it a scenario you want to be in.
Thank you for being polite and cordial on a discussion of our differing views. because of that it caused me to be able to really reflect on my positions and listen to yours and as such, i can say my mind has been changed!
The same lack of definition to win conditions occurs on the survivor side as well, obviously an escape is something you want but the game internally defines only your personal escape as a win for you (ultimately only to the hidden mmr system) and while I agree that a three out where I die is still a win for me you will find people arguing for playing in a selfish way.
mori on survivor 3 instead of just 4
This has been one of the suggested solutions actually, that in a 2v1 the moment a survivor goes down a mori starts, hell lets make it extra fun and give ranged killers a special mori when they get the ranged down (nurses head is now three times as big lol). I am very open to other options than the slugged survivor abandoning or being insta-killed by the way and would even prefer a rework to make the 2v1 more engaging but all of those take more development effort than just letting them leave. The band aid would unfortunately likely become permanent but at least it would be something. I agree that the endgame scenario of one hook and everyone else still up sucks as well and a reduction to endurance in endgame would be a fine change but just like the killer winning scenario it feels like a band aid when it obviously needs some rework.
I agree there is a disconnection problem and a giving up problem (on both sides) but I frame it as a frustration problem first and an attitude problem second (for some it really is just attitude). You will never make everyone happy but it is possible to decrease frustration on both sides while still maintaining game balance, I mentioned some of that on the survivor side but a big one I should point out on the killer side is the expectation that ghostface should be able to win under the same conditions as nurse and blight. The disparity between killer strength is a massive driver of frustration as well and ultimately on both sides.
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@CoolerBleend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086318#Comment_4086318
The problem with that is the anti camp range for affecting the power is identical to normal anti-camp, which is a 16 meter sphere around the hook. This means that even if you are on another floor from the surv chasing someone else either below or above, you will get the 4.5 second animation instead of the 1.5, making you basically lose the chase solely from that alone
This will effect like three whole maps on a regular basis and most of them provide easy access to the other floor (I'm thinking RPD, The Game, and Midwich this last one being the only one that you can't typically easily access the other floor), if the survivor takes you in range of the hook even on a different floor they are giving you a free camp especially when Jasons power lets him change floors so easily. If you use the power and get hit with the anti-camp to an extent it effects the chase you have been given a free opportunity to check on the hook while at least one other survivor isn't on gens, I see nothing to be concerned about.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086311#Comment_4086311
your writing is much better than mine! also i want to preface since we are clearly on 2 different positions that i hold no hostility or ire towards you even though i can come off blunt or insensitive. So I just want to make sure that you are aware i am talking to you with these long messages because i enjoy talking to you, not because i want to show you up or ypur some enemy of mine.
- i do not think its reasonable to hold a position for them to have a mechanic for 9 years in the game that they did not want in the game that has an unintended game interaction and then not only never change it but then go around in in all sorts of adjacent and change those mechanics and say "we want to change certain game actions" and also want to do that with the final slug and not implement any change to that or discuss it. It is far more reasonable to infer that they dont see that as a problematic and an unexpected emergent game behavior as if they did at some point it would have been handled to remove it or lower its impact as they have done with a a bunch of other unintended mechanics and game interactions.
2. if you want to decrease the game experience of other people in the match to heighten your own experience (i.e. abandon your team mate and other players mid match because you dont want to sit there not doing anything for a couple mins) that is by definition selfish. which is OK to be selfish, im only stating that you cant say another person playing their game with the goal to win and utilising a strategy (non rule breaking) is being selfish because they dont want to play less effectively because you are bothered by a minute or 2 of lowered(you ar able to game interact while slugged) game interactivity or boredom.
3. one of my favorite activities to do when im in that situation is to slu crawl away, if the killer isnt proxying you you can absolutely crawl away and get out of sight within 15 seconds. ive done it dozens and dozens of time(i find slugNseek fun) but most of the time killers are chasing the mori so they leave you alone and dont remain on your body (ime)
4. Occam's razor would suggest that bhvr is aware of that mechanic and if they found it problematic or against game design they would have included that in the slug patches and qol passes they did. it takes more leaps and assumptions to conclude that they are aware of this, not talking about it but internally thinking its not an intended mechanic. why are you assuming they feel this way?
5. i agree this is likely the case in nearly all circumstances but the game still isnt over and a comeback i still possible even if its only a 4 percent chance (hopefully you get that tongue in cheek reference lol) and there is still a chance you can come back and escape. i have done so, not often but a few times it has, or ive at least been able to be part of how team mates escaped even if it was lost for me.
I want to reiterate here that ia m not pro slugging (sluggings fine if you dont over due it or being a jerk about it) in that i have a "get slugged loser" mindset (im aware my username may indicate otherwise) i do care about peoples fun and i do not slug the 3rd for the 4th (most of the time, in competitive matches where all of us are trying, i will because im trying to win) vast majority of the time i let the last 1 or 2 go (i let 2 people go twice last night) and i dont enjoy being slugged and left instead of hooked, i roll my eyes when it happens.
But my point is is that even tho its boring and it sucks, it is part of the games design, clearly is intentional or at the very least tolerated and not seen as a tactic that needs to be removed and i dont think its good for the game to add more ways for people to just dc when a game isnt going the way they want, we already have a major problem with that.
But if that were to be changed and you could abandon, i wouldnt personally complain because its an issue that wouldnt really be impacting me, i just get the DC whenever i down someone faster than they want or they dont like my killer choice or the wind blows or whatever happens in these games lol. I just am not convinced that there is an argument to be made to abandon a game just because you feel like you cant win and dont want to wait a couple minutes.
Technical documentation is part of my job, I type and write a fair bit and it needs to be clear (but I dramatically overuse commas and regularly use them incorrectly). This is a global forum so I don't expect good writing and wouldn't assume anyone coming here has English as their first language. I also understand that at the end of the day we are discussing a video game, a video game we are both clearly invested in but a video game nonetheless :) , I know I come off as blunt sometimes too and get overly passionate about a silly game. To some extent I am hoping that if this post gets enough comments BHVR will increase the priority of an endgame rework or at least get it onto some sort of roadmap.
I also want to state that I don't think anyone slugging for the 4k makes them a bad person (again video game) but I can say that I would not want to be acquainted with or be friends with a person that would end their matches that way on a regular basis. The best thing I can liken it to in the real world is someone picking up a dollar they saw someone else drop and not giving it back to the person that dropped it (assuming neither of those people really need money). Its ultimately a minor act of selfishness but would make me question the rest of their ethics and motivations.
- The most recent change to hatch was in 5.3.0 so around five years ago. Prior to that change hatch would spawn in closed depending on number of survivors alive and generators completed. It still spawned in and opened automatically with one survivor left but you could find or bring a key into the trial to open it earlier. You could still technically slug to prevent it but to a much lesser extent and only if a large number of gens remained. The dev notes on there state the reasons they made those changes as being a nerf to keys and to prevent survivors camping the hatch (you could find it before it spawned in as well) and just waiting for their teammates to die. Slug for the 4k is a side effect of these changes. I wasn't playing at the time so some of this might be me misunderstanding (spawn logic was a bit weird).
- There are a lot of bugs that have been in the game for that long or longer or disappear for a single patch and then come back in another. With how poorly the game code was written its entirely possible they have tried to make updates internally that complete broke something. Given how long the endgame has been considered a problem on both sides this actually seems more likely to me than slug for the 4k being intended.
- There are a lot of bugs that have been in the game for that long or longer or disappear for a single patch and then come back in another. With how poorly the game code was written its entirely possible they have tried to make updates internally that complete broke something. Given how long the endgame has been considered a problem on both sides this actually seems more likely to me than slug for the 4k being intended.
- I am not abandoning my teammates though, I am slugged on the ground with no way to help them if I could help them I would and the most effective way to do that would be to die. There is nothing I can do in that situation to help them and me being there is actively detrimental to my teammates escape since if I wasn't there hatch would spawn and they would have a chance of escape. I am not in any way decreasing the game experience for anyone else by being allowed to leave, my game experience and the experience of the other remaining survivor are the ones being degraded. If your argument is that the killers experience would be degraded if I was allowed to leave then you have a small point but we are talking about a degradation from winning with a guaranteed 4k to winning with a guaranteed 3k and with a 4k still being incredibly likely. Comparing that to someone being completely unable to meaningfully interact with the game its obvious who needs to be prioritized.
- It depends on whether or not they find the other survivor, if they find them of course they go after them but at that point the match is really truly over and you are not getting back up, no point in me being there anymore. If they don't you get proxied in the hopes that you lead them to the other survivor or the other survivor tries to get you back up. If the other survivor isn't nearby I'm dying to bleed out. If the other survivor is nearby then they get found and downed, no point in me being there. No matter what me being there is not doing anything or changing anything. Maybe just crawling around is fun for you but I think you will not find many people that agree.
- I am certain BHVR is aware but development projects (I am a software dev but not a game dev) are complicated projects and a small amount of spaghetti code can make things difficult to alter even if you want to make changes, even if those changes sound simple. Given the sheer amount of spaghetti code in this particular game and BHVRs clear money sidedness it wouldn't surprise me if its on the list of things to change eventually but so far down the list it may as well never see the light of day. There are also the slugging changes that didn't make it to live which would have effectively nerfed the ability to slug for the 4k (without outright removing it), so you could argue that they had intended to resolve it there but the pushback they received from those changes have made them hesitant to try again (as we can see from the diminishing returns changes having so few other changes, though soon?).
- I am aware it is possible and even mention that I have done it before but maybe a handful out of thousands of game, so a ridiculously low chance of it happening. We are talking matches where the two remaining survivors must dramatically outclass the killer to such an extent it makes you wonder how matchmaking put those two survivors against that killer alongside the two survivors that died.
I understand why someone will slug during the match but once the killer has won (3k) I don't. I cannot see how someone could need a 4k that badly. It may be a game but if I found out a friend was doing it regularly I would re-evaluate that friendship, this game just isn't that serious or truly competitive and if they are not thinking about how it could effect the downed survivor then they quite likely have a childish mindset that I don't trust. If they want the hyper competitive experience we have the comp scene and as a bonus if they don't like certain perks or think matchmaking is poor both of those are in the hands of the players over there. I also wouldn't mind much if it was only an occasional thing but its becoming more and more common to the point that its been nearly every match that the killer wins recently, it wears on you and makes me less and less likely to play survivor.
You can claim that its intended but we have no confirmation of that, I think its far more likely to just have happened by accident and all their attempts at addressing it have been shot down or de-prioritized. I don't mind losing, some of my favorite matches ever in this game are ones I lost, but slugging for the 4k isn't something that allows the survivors a meaningful way to interact with the game. Hatch race at least gives everyone something to do. I am not saying its perfect but its far better than the situation slugging for the 4k creates.
If you want to really tackle DCs, and I agree they happen more on the survivor side, then you have to address why they are happening not band aid in more punishment. They come from a place of real frustration with the game but a desire to keep playing because there is a good game hidden in here and there isn't anything else like it (this doesn't apply to everyone, obviously there are people that just have poor attitudes but those players will never be saved). The reason I have had such a problem with this thread is that slugging for the 4k is clearly one of the primary causes of that frustration that BHVR could tackle and there are so many people defending it. To me personally it is the single greatest cause of frustration, how could it not be when the expectation is for me to just sit there after the match is lost. The biggest problem for this of course is that if they focused on a patch to lessen frustrations people would want their personal grievances included and dealt with, everything would be seen through the lens of balance changes and it won't be allowed to be imperfect at first and fixed over time.
While survivors DC more often, killers complain more (you can dispute this if you want but I have seen too many youtube videos from killers that win nearly all their matches and still complain to think its not true). Those same killers love to claim that all it would take for kill rates to go down is for survivors to learn, they never consider that killers also have skill issues and that kill rates would go up if the average killer player was better. Those skill issues are just not as easily noticed because the game does favor the killer up until we are talking about the absolute highest level of play, simply because it is much easier to snowball on the killer side. When they lose many never consider that they got matched against survivors better than them and they lost because of a skill issue, many jump directly to the game being survivor sided.
PTBs are a great reminder to me that I am probably (not saying with any certainty) better than average, I won all my matches as Jason and my survivor matches were significantly easier than normal (actually weirdly gave me some hope that mmr really does work at least a little). I'm not saying there are no struggles on the killer side but your average youtuber that plays this game for a living or just an absolute ton is not a good judge because they are ridiculously good at the game and out of touch with the struggles of the average player particularly on the survivor side where game knowledge is a bigger part of the game than on killer (it still matters just less in my opinion).
Your average player is average on both sides and they always will be average, even if good tutorials exist you can't force someone to watch them or remember what they said and that is before getting into how different implementing the actions are from just knowing. If you push these players too hard this is what happens. Obviously a balance does need to be struck and we shouldn't push the average killer too hard either but so many simultaneously claim that killer is miserable while winning the majority of their matches. If its miserable while you win imagine how miserable your opponents must have been. I want to reiterate that I am not saying there are no problems on the killer side there absolutely are such as the disparity between maps (which I think effects killers more than survivors), but anytime someone even tries to bring up survivor frustration or survivor issues you are met with people that will insist its just a skill issue and that no changes should be made even if those changes would have no effect on balance, I have even seen people claim that survivor perks on a PTB were overpowered and then they are unused a week after they go live (not saying its never true but more commonly its completely wrong).
I agree that DCing so early is silly but at the same time there have absolutely been games that were lost simply because the killer had a good start. I won't give up but its demoralizing that it can happen that early while its simultaneously possible that the killer could play poorly most of the match and then snowball to a victory near the end, no such comeback exists for survivor. I and the few friends I have that still play survivor are currently trying to teach a new player how to play, I have recommended they focus on killer but they want to join for survivor sometimes. It has been a terrible reminder how on point the entire survivor team needs to be in order to even stand a chance, my solo queue matches are better than playing with them because they are so new. I don't expect to win and am still enjoying my time but the matches shouldn't be the wild blowouts they are either. Unless the killer goes out of their way to play incredibly nicely we lose with many gens left and that's one new player playing with three experienced players (not sweaty or incredibly good but at least decent I think).
(and now I think I have written too much and I don't think I can be this verbose again, sorry for the wall of text)
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@Nicholas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085146#Comment_4085146
Exactly, I love how people always call the Hatch a zero-effort win for Survivors. What about those Trials where the gens are completed by two Survivors, but one gets slugged doing a gate? If the last one gets Hatch, is that a free escape/win? I posted about this very issue over six years ago, and still nothing has been done.
The devs are usually more concerned with The Killer's experience and perspective, which is the issue.
Old post for those interested: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/146093/since-nothing-can-change-the-outcome-is-a-thing-when-can-we-insta-bleed-out-when-slugged
Ya, a part of me is hoping the guy I am arguing with can actually find evidence that BHVR intended slug for the 4k. If they do it would be the perfect counter to anyone that claims they only care about the survivor role or are all a bunch of survivor mains. Not that people saying things like that are likely to be making arguments in good faith in the first place but I really don't think there would be any way to say they favor survivors if the slug for the 4k loophole is intended.
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The anti-camp change is a good change. It is incredibly easy to use Jason's power to camp without triggering anti-camp or to just return to hook quickly and then tunnel someone out. Why are people so adamant that tunneling be the way forward for killer play? If this has an impact on his kill rate he will see buffs to other aspects.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086214#Comment_4086214
- if that had been an unintended and undesired emergent behavior it would have been addressed by them sometime within the last 10 years just as they have addressed other undesired emergent behaviors (you being satisfied by it is a differnt story) They have changed other things that are very divisive so claiming that because some people wouldnt like it is not a valid point to make here as they have a decade of making changes that upset people.
2. if your team mate leaves you for 4 mins on the ground without picking you up and the killer isnt standing over your body, thats on your team mate. the game was in progress and you were savable. the game was not over, hence why 3 people were still in an ongoing match. Something being annoying or boring to you is not the same thing as being disrespectful or poor sportsmanship.
3. almost every action you do is selfish. Slefish actions are fine, it has a bad connotation but you can not engage in life without selfish behavior.
Killers and survivors both want to win and as such want the opposition to lose. That is both want a more positive outcome for their individual self than for the opposition. This isnt really arguable. Its objectively selfish and the game can not exist if neither side is selfish and desires a better outcome for themselves than the opponents. this is simply what competition is.
4. Amusing you say im not engaging with your arguments when i have directly addressed them. You not likeing or agreeing with what i said doesnt magically mean im not addressing you. you just arent compelled by my reasoning which is fine but dont go making up lies dude lol.
5. well for 1 survs could stop picking each other up in the killers face, that would be a great start.
the killer isnt trying to waste your time (for most i assume anywasy like myself in the times i do slug) they are trying to win via a 4k. preventing the 4th person from escaping by triggering the pity portal is completely valid and i dont think you have any real justification that someone shouldnt try to do that if they want.
at MOST its 4 mins if your team mate does nothing but run in a circle and achieve nothing. In reality you will either be picked up or the other guy will be downed within 1-2 minutes.
complaining about a 1-2 minute wait every once in a while is a little entitled. if you were left there for 10 or 15 minutes or something or that the game wasnt actually progressing while your downed your position would hold more validity.
Survivors waste killers time when standing in the end gate when they have won. but you cant or shouldnt take action against that (as much as it annoys me when people dont just leave) because the game is still progress able. either the timer or the killer can force the game to end.
in the same way, your team (this is a team game for survs) you are there to be a support for your team and vice versa even if your slugged on the ground and even if your team mates are trash.
your welcome to abandon your team mate and fellow players but that IS bad sportmanship hence why there is a DC penalty.
if the devs felt otherwise they wouldnt have excluded this from all the other abandon features that happen when the game is ACTUALLY lost.
if your slugged anmd your team mate is still up you are LOSING but you have not LOST hence why you dont get to DC without penalty.
check your tik tok or whatever for 2 mins if you really cant be bothered to not tap buttons for a minute or 2.
Hatch doesnt even count as a win, so if you have 2 gens left and 1 guy left or 2 guys left and 1s slugged why not just immediately end the game instead of playing it out?
or 1 or 2k for killers isnt a win, should a killer just stop playing when its clear they can not achieve a 3k?
you signed up with 4 other people to play a game. its bad sportmanship to abandon game before the match is over.
- You can't find them saying its intended, so many things have gone unaddressed this just happens to be one of them. BHVR quite clearly focuses updates on things that make money, thus even if they want to change it its incredibly low on their priority list.
- The killer doesn't need to be standing on top of me, getting me up is not going to work. Its not hard to keep track of the incredibly slow moving slug while looking for the last survivor. You cannot blame someone that did not make the choice to put us in that position.
- Selfish actions (keyword right there) require you to make a choice, to do something, I am not choosing to be forced to do nothing when I am trying to game. The killer is choosing to do that. The killer is the one taking an action against another for their own personal desires, I can't be selfish for wanting to move on after that happens. As the person taking the action only the killer can. There is nothing wrong with wanting a 4k, as I have said many times, there is something wrong when you take actions that harm (yes incredibly minor but still harm) others to achieve it.
- Nothing in your previous comment engaged with anything I said, the ones before that did. You just claim its intended with no proof, blame teammates for whats happening when they have zero say in the matter, claim I am the one being selfish while its the killers actions that lead to the situation, and then try to turn the argument around on me with nonsense about how wanting the killer to not leave me with nothing to do is selfish or that not wanting to sit slugged for up to four minutes makes me a poor sportsman. Ask a football player if they would be ok with their opponent making their team sit at half field and do nothing while that opponent scores points against their team, you would get laughed at.
- We are talking about a 2v1 situation, someone will be found moments after the slug is picked up whether or not its in the killers face, and even once someone is up unless there is almost no gen progress left to complete (unlikely) then you end up in that cycle. I should not be forced to go do something else while trying to play a game, its a ridiculous ask.
As for the time, I literally bled out to a slug for the 4k twice last evening. In one my teammate did get me up but guess what I went back down shortly afterwards and with two gens left there was no getting out of that. All getting me up did was extend the stupid situation, congrats, should have just left me on the ground. If there are two survivors up we have lost and can no longer win, capitalization doesn't change that.
There is no situation where the killer becomes unable to play the game. On top of that killers have many chances to start a snowball that wins them the match up to the point where all survivors are truly safe, I have done it many times and I would bet you have too. In a 2v1, the survivors cannot win, trying to turn the argument around doesn't work because the roles are incredibly different.
Hatch not counting as a win is exactly my point. Why is it ok for the killer to cause harm to someone else (again minor) to deny a not a win? Why is it ok to ask the survivor to endure that harm (again minor) so that the killer can get a 4k? No argument you could possibly make can justify that.
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It also prevents deliverance from activating if the unhooked survivor uses it before the "safe unhook" happens.
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I don't see many meaningful changes here. The coroner's coffee change is the biggest nerf but it was easily his strongest add-on. His Omnipresent evil ability was way too good for camping and tunneling so the increase to the anti-camp system is a good change. The boat motor change is nice and might make it an actually useful add-on. The Deputy's badge change is a big buff for any player that has their macro down and didn't need the original effect.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086169#Comment_4086169
i mean, i think they are well aware since this has been possible for the entirety of hatches existence which is like 9 years or something now. It clearly is an intended mechanic even if you dont like it. to be clear im not arguing that you SHOULD like it. i totally understand how it can be annoying, but the game is designed to be done that way and killers are supposed to and clearly allowed to not have to allow someone a chance at hatch as technically the killers job is to prevent people from having a chance for a pity escape anyways.
very rarely in insatnces ive been in that situation has it taken 4 mins for the last person to get downed or come and rescue me and if a killers spent 4 mins looking for the last guy and that guy hasnt come picked you up, thats on your team mate not the killer
wanting to abandon a game instead of staying in it when the game is ongoing just because for the moment your having to sit there is selfish. your wanting people to change how they play and win "less" in order to avoid you having to wait a couple minutes to que up again and remove your team mates ability to potentially escape or pick you up.
Its mutually selfish on both sides.
its not poor sportmanship though.
Have they ever stated that its intended? Does anything state anywhere that its intended? I don't think they have. People are so quick to say things like "the devs don't understand why people slug more on gideon" but here you think this is intended? I think they don't change it solely because they know there is a large cohort of people that cannot stand a match ending with them getting anything less than a 4k and those players would kick up a huge fuss about it.
It is never on either of the survivor, it can't be, they are not the one choosing to create the situation and its ridiculous to put any blame on them. I'm not going to blame someone with no power in the situation for not picking me up, I am going to blame the person putting us all into that situation, its illogical to do anything else.
It is not selfish to want to move on when I have been slugged for the 4k, you can't even give me a reason why that is selfish, how does that even make sense? What about it is selfish? Whereas I can point directly at the slugged survivor and state that the killer is choosing to waste that persons time because of their selfish desire for a 4k.
You're not even engaging with any of my arguments at this point just saying that I'm wrong while spouting nonsense. How am I removing my teammates ability to potentially escape? How are they supposed to pick me up in such a way that we can continue the match and not just fall into a cycle of pickup → slug → pickup → slug? Its an unreasonable expectation. Me being there is the primary thing preventing them from potentially escaping, complete nonsense.
It is selfish of the killer only and they are the only person being a poor sportsman.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086122#Comment_4086122
it objectively is gameplay and its objectively participating in the match albiet not in a particularly exciting manner. but this was something intentionally designed as a gameplay mechanic therefore it is gameplay.
I do not disagree that its a tad annoying to be left bleeding out instead of hooked in a 2v1 scenario but the game was designed this way. hatch was designed so there is some reason to play when its a 1v1 scenario as gates can be almost impossible to solve at that point.
it wasnt designed to ensure survs get to always use it obviously or that there is an expectation the killer should let you play for it.
I understand you dont like laying for 1-2 minutes every once in a while when you only have a small chance to win. but its only 1-2 minutes and the game isnt over even if the chance of a come back is astronomically low.
But it isnt reasonable to expect people to accept less of a victory in a game designed around achieving the victory in a competitive game where most people are trying to win when they play.
The game does not tell you in any way that you shouldnt kill all 4 or that you should ensure everyone has a chance for hatch.
Again hatch was only ever implemented to prevent a softlock in the old days where neither side was able to break a deadlock and escape or get out.
its not there as an expectation that anyone should be able to play for.
It's objectively you doing nothing, not gameplay (unless you consider watching paint dry gameplay?). It lasts for up to 4 minutes for the full bleed out timer not 1-2.
Hatch was designed to end the match and I doubt the developers even thought someone would slug the second last survivor to prevent it spawning in.
A two out is a tie not a comeback and while I have in fact made that happen before we are talking maybe two matches out of thousands, statistical anomalies. In one scenario the killer wins and in the other the killer wins, its not less of a victory. You don't see a football team quibble about winning by only 3 points instead of 20 points, they still won and that's all that most people really look at.
All you are doing is justifying someone making a selfish decision and being a poor sport while downplaying how it effects the slugged survivor.
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@Andrix_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086063#Comment_4086063
I know exactly how it worked, I'm a 2017 player. I didn't mention any of it because it would have made my post as long as Wall Maria
Let me ask you in reverse. In 0-kill games, have you ever seen a survivor spontaneously sacrifice for the killer to make him feel better? Why would you expect the killer to spare the last survivor? The entitlement here is absurd.
Of course the precedent iteration of hatch had issues, (mainly caused by how broken keys were back then) but at least it was a consistent mechanic. Now it's just plain ugly rng.
The problem here is that the mechanics of hatch are forcing Killers to play toxic to get 4k, because otherwise they'd simply rely on rng. Which is not fun.
The only problem with hatch being visible was the existence of keys which allowed survivor to escape way earlier. That's why I suggested to make it not-accessible until 2v1.
Let me ask you in reverse. In 0-kill games, have you ever seen a survivor spontaneously sacrifice for the killer to make him feel better? Why would you expect the killer to spare the last survivor? The entitlement here is absurd.
During the Jason PTB I did it twice because it was obvious the killer was struggling against survivors they had no place facing (no mmr on the ptb). For one of those I also spent time in end game chat talking with them about ways they could maybe get more enjoyment out of their time playing (they were clearly having a rough time and mentioned it in chat). Being empathetic and respectful towards your opponents is so easy, its all the players that are not that leaves the rest jaded.
The problem here is that the mechanics of hatch are forcing Killers to play toxic to get 4k, because otherwise they'd simply rely on rng. Which is not fun.
No one is forcing the killer to do anything, they are choosing to take those actions and while there is rng to hatch it is still in the killers favor in the vast majority of cases. Needing the 4k so badly that you force someone else to wait while you get it is real entitlement.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086025#Comment_4086025
your still able to play the game in dbd. when you are slugged you are still playing and still in the match regardless of whether you are able to engage in actions you want to undertake.
when you are slugged and 4th person is up your still able to be revived and put back in the game. is it easy? no. neither is coming back in any competition that you are losing.
combat sports are only stopped before the end due to safety issues, if safety is not in play, if its a 10 round match, and you lost the first 8 rounds, the match still continues for 2 more.
whats disrespectful and unsportsmanlike is wanting to stop playing because you are losing and not in a competitive position you prefer not to be in. (something i have been guilty of myself)
bhvr not implementing a ranked or casual mode is not on survivors or killers to not try and win the best they can.
You may not care about a 4k or a 4 man out (i dont myself) but other people do and other people caring about it is valid and fine even if you dont like it.
the killers job is to kill ideally everyone and the survivors job is to escape as a team and ideally with 4 people.
there is no expectation that the game places that you shouldnt try to fully complete your objectives or that you have to limit what degree you win.
show some sportmanship and wait a minute and the last guy will get downed or youll get picked up.
The slugged survivor is able to crawl, that's not gameplay and it isn't participating in the match. Yes, you can be picked up and if I am the last survivor up I will try to do so if I think its possible and I still try to get gens done, I mentioned that earlier. I am not asking to be let go or given a "free" escape in any of these scenarios, I am asking that the match be allowed to continue to its natural conclusion which includes the possibility of a hatch escape.
I am not asking to stop playing because I am losing, I am asking my opponent to not arbitrarily decide that an intended game mechanic doesn't apply to them. It would be like the winning team being able to declare that the losing team is no longer allowed to score more points. If you lose the first 8 rounds in a combat sport you could still win the next two, slugging for the 4k is the winning fighter saying that for the last two rounds the losing fighter has to fight with their hands tied behind their back, the last two rounds become guaranteed wins.
Hatch exists, deciding that it doesn't apply because someone wants a guaranteed 4k instead of their already guaranteed 3k is poor sportsmanship and disrespectful to the slugged players time unless they already know where the last survivor is (something I have also mentioned before), there is no reasonable argument that can be made to deny that. All of the analogies to sports fall apart at the smallest level of scrutiny because those games don't allow the already winning side to decide how the rest of the match is going to play out or let them ignore rules they don't like and the losing side doesn't have to remove players from the field to the point that the original objective becomes impossible to accomplish.
I would love the entirety of the endgame to be reworked in both the survivor winning and killer winning cases. Until that happens it isn't asking much of the killer player that they not go out of their way to deny hatch by slugging for the 4k, just like it isn't asking much of the survivor players not to sit in the exit gate to bag. If someone can't see that then it is absolutely reasonable to say they lack empathy for the other side and that they are being disrespectful and unsportsmanlike for choosing to prevent a mechanic simply because they don't like it.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085978#Comment_4085978
how is trying to eliminate all survivors (literally the entire point of the game) staggeringly disrespectful?
The goal of the game is to kill everyone/escape
it is not only kill a few and let the last person escape or only 3 people can escape not 4 rule based game.
do not twist made up rulebooks invoked whenever you dislike losing with what the game, rules, and mechanics actually are.
what other sport or competition that has a clear start and end has the game end early or have the winning person/team stop playing just because they are winning?
In american football is it unsportmanlike for a team up 21 and 0 in the 4th quarter with 2 minutes to still play to win and try to score points?
how about basketball?
combat sports?
you dont like losing and remaining in a state of being aware you are losing. so you want a shortcut out of it. thats why alot of people dc too. thats unsportsmanlike.
In ALL of the games you mention each player is still able to play the game in all situations. In american football, when one team is up 21 to 0 is the losing team forced to just stand there while the winning team scores more points? No, they are not they get to continue playing and try to score some points.
Combat sports? These literally have a referee that stops rounds or the match as a whole to ensure no one gets injured. They regularly end before getting through all rounds.
No one said you have to let them escape but it is unsportsmanlike and disrespectful to not allow them to continue playing or let them move on. I agree dcing is unsportsmanlike, good thing I don't do that and think those players suck too.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085134#Comment_4085134
i dont think its reasonable to have an expectation that in a game people play both casually and competitively that they would forgoe their only objective "kill survivors" and kill less survivors for no reason or so that a survivor can escape through hatch.
its like saying a why should survs go and try and save a 4th surv if they win with a 3 man out.
thats just now how people are and it doesnt make sense to argue that people should try and win "less" for no reason than making someone who doesnt like to lose get less upset at their own failure.
If its about wasting time the 4th surv could just run to killer or go pick up slug if the game is "already lost"
that would speed it up.
The killer is the one creating the situation it is entirely on them to end it, not the survivors. The blatant lack of respect people in this thread are showing towards their opponents is staggering.
Going for a four man out is not the equivalent situation, its survivors bagging in the exit gate. The match is at the point where one side has won and nothing is going to change that. Both are massive wastes of time and do nothing but show disrespect to your opponents. Why is it so hard to remember that we are playing a video game and there is a person waiting to move on to their next match?
If anyone is wondering why there is so much toxicity in this community this thread is the perfect place to start. So many people being completely OK leaving another player on the ground solely to guarantee a 4k win instead of the already guaranteed 3k win and probably still a 4k. Apparently sportsmanship and basic respect are foreign concepts.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085938#Comment_4085938
All it takes is a quick down before progress is made on gens for survivors to give up. Yes, the killer being the sole reason gets unlikely as you go down the tier list, but you can't discount it.
Since this scenario is more than one doing it, it's most likely a SWF where one didn't want to play against an Oni or a capable killer.
You realize the poster was a survivor in the match, right? And they don't seem like the type to give up in a normal match to me. So at the very least not a four man swf and there is no mention of other survivors throwing themself at the killer and I think they would have mentioned it if that happened and probably blamed the whole swf rather than a particular perk and specific survivor.
You are making a lot of claims about what went down and why with no real evidence.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085900#Comment_4085900
Ignoring the irrational mind of survivors that give up when thing don't go their way, you could see the reason as Oni was villainized during 2v8 causing many to hate playing against him even in 1v4.
I saw a lot of people saying he is over-tuned in the mode. I don't know that I saw anyone villainizing him though. I am not saying it wasn't dislike of the killer, it just seems far more likely to me the player went in with intentional sabotage in mind and would have done this regardless of killer, especially if this really happened as fast as is being claimed.
In the last 2v8 I had play while you wait players intentional sabotage their survivor matches, not saying this is what happened either but its just as likely as that player not liking the killer.
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Are you sure it was because they didn't like the killer? I have a hard time believing anyone would do this against an Oni (not that it couldn't happen). I think its more likely they came into the match with the intention of ruining it regardless of who the killer was.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085801#Comment_4085801
It's not whataboutism when both actions are the same thing just for each side respectively: wasting time taking a victory lap. You can criticize survivors for stalling at an exit gate, but that would mean (unless you're a hypocrite) you would also be willing to criticize killers doing the same thing. I have a strong feeling the amount of cognitive dissonance would be palpable coming from the killer side.
Same to you, its a problem on both sides. Call out the specific people doing it or defending it.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085643#Comment_4085643
Happens far more often on the survivor side. Playing both sides equally, maybe 1 in 10 games or so this happens and its usually because i took them on a long chase and they finally got me. As a killer, it happens pretty much 100% of the time that i lose.
How about we call out the actual players doing it rather than just this side or the other and which side (anecdotally) does it more. I guarantee the people that do it on one side do it on the other. You will also have a hard time finding people that defend those that bag in exit, all you have to do is check the slug for the 4k thread to see how many people are OK being disrespectful to survivors in endgame.
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@KingOfGhost said:
It is not about kills or anything like that.
Endurance exists to help survivors against tunneling and to give them protection in those situations. However, once all generators are completed, the game is basically considered over. At that point, there is nothing left for the killer to “tunnel” someone, because the main objective has already been completed.
The way I see it is similar to the hatch. The hatch gives survivors hope of escaping and prevents them from completely giving up when the match is almost lost. In the same way, if basekit Endurance were removed during the endgame, it would give the killer a reason to keep playing the last minute or two of the match with the hope of securing a kill.
If you are so good at killer that you can secure a kill during the endgame even with Endurance active, then that is good for you. However, that is your personal experience, not necessarily what the general player base experiences.
If the developers still want Endurance to exist during the endgame, they could make it so that Borrowed Time provides Endurance during that period instead of having it be basekit.
Endurance off hook is there to prevent the survivor from being downed the moment their feet touch the ground against a camping killer. It does help with tunneling as well but that is secondary to it giving the survivor the initial chance to get away. Without that it isn't hope to get a kill, its guaranteed.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085127#Comment_4085127
This game doesn't have a defined number of kills or escapes that constitutes a win. Some streamers who do kill streaks see it the way you do. 3K and let the last survivor have hatch. Some will only accept a 4K.
If you want to talk about ego, what about the ego of survivor mains who think they have to get everyone out so bring Dead hard, Decisive Strike, We'll Make It, etc.? 3-4 seco9nc chance perks. Sounds stupid to call that an ego problem, right? So it the idea of a killer wanting to win the game their way being an ego problem.There is a big difference between wanting a 4k and slugging one survivor to ensure hatch doesn't spawn and wasting everyone's time so you can search the whole map to get your 4k. The first is fine, the second is clearly a problem and its the killer choosing to place everyone in that situation. Its so easy to just not do that.
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Ya, it's a complete waste of everyone's time. I'll stay in on survivor to ensure my teammates make it out but leave the moment I know everyone is safe. The moment they start waiting and bagging I start wishing I hadn't helped them.
This game just seems to attract people with a poor sense of sportsmanship. Know that it says much more about them than anything else.