FerrousFacade
FerrousFacade
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085447#Comment_4085447
Cool, then we’re done here. You’re free to think slugging for a 4k reflects ‘poor character.’ I think claiming you can judge stranger’s empathy and worth as people over how they use intended mechanics in a horror game reflects poor boundaries.
We clearly have different lines; I’m comfortable with mine. Respectfully, I won’t be continuing this conversation due to our difference of opinion.
You don't get to pick and choose what choices matter for who you are, every single one matters especially those where other living beings are involved and doubly so when your choices effect their experience. The only boundaries are the made up ones in your head.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085441#Comment_4085441
You keep presenting your personal preferences as if they’re universal truths. You’ve decided the slugged survivor is ‘automatically more important’ and that any killer who doesn’t share that hierarchy ‘lacks empathy’ and is ‘beyond help.’ That’s not basic human decency, that’s you moralizing a playstyle you dislike.
Both sides are players. Both have goals. The game allows slugging, rewards 4ks, and has never stated that survivors desire to leave faster is inherently more important than a killer’s desire to secure an extra kill.
You’re absolutely entitled to hate being slugged and to call it bad design, if they come out with a better design of course I am ALL for that..What you’re not entitled to do is use that dislike to declare people ‘selfish’ or ‘lesser’ as human beings for using a legitimate mechanic in a horror game.
Also, just to be clear: I don’t mind people criticizing design or saying ‘this isn’t fun for me.’ I do mind being told that my empathy or basic decency is lacking because I use a mechanic the game allows. You don’t know me, and it’s not appropriate to make those kinds of character judgments over how someone plays a horror game.
Something being allowed doesn't make it OK or justified. I am not asking you to not win, I'm not asking you to not tunnel or slug in general, and I am not asking you to not take every advantage you can to win the match, I am only asking that you not slug for the 4k because you have already won at that point and it creates an unnecessary bad experience for the slugged player.
I don't know you and frankly I don't want to. When its as incredibly simple as it is to just not slug for the 4k in consideration of the slugged player then yes I think it reflects poorly on you as a person. You can call it moralizing all you want, your actions reflect poor character.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085431#Comment_4085431
I think you’re massively overreaching here, respectively.
You keep trying to frame “I like closing out a 4k” as some moral failing, but at the end of the day we’re all just using the tools the game gives us to pursue our own goals. You don’t get to declare that the only acceptable goals are the ones that let someone leave the match a bit sooner.
A 3k is a win for you, cool and it is for me too. For me, a 4k feels like fully closing out the trial. Complete…That I just spent 10–15 minutes in. That’s my win condition. The game itself tracks 4ks, designs tome/rift challenges around 4ks, and showers extra bloodpoints on kills, so pretending the only “real” gameplay benefit is speed‑running into your next lobby is just your personal preference dressed up as fact.
Also, survivors “waiting to move on” are not automatically more important than the killer finishing their own goal. Both sides are players. Both sides are allowed to value different things. You’re calling other people entitled while insisting your preferred experience should override theirs.Slugging for a 4k is not “holding the game hostage” unless I’m deliberately refusing to end the match for several minutes with no intention of progressing the state of the game. Using slugging, pressure, and timing to secure a kill before hatch or the last gen is literally part of how this game is designed to be played. (To be clear I don’t run all slug builds and slug out all 4 survivors.)
You’re absolutely projecting values when you label anyone who doesn’t share your priorities as “selfish” or “not a better person.” You’re free to dislike slugging or to leave when you see it, but you don’t get to turn a legitimate playstyle in an asymmetrical horror game into some kind of character test.
A survivor slugged and waiting to move on is automatically more important than the killer choosing to leave them there so they can finish their arbitrarily decided goals. Find me someone that enjoys or wants to be slugged for the 4k. As you can see from this thread it isn't my personal preference, its an obvious flaw in the games design that is generally despised. A flaw that you are perfectly OK with solely because it benefits you and your personal desires. You have one player being forced to wait until another player does what they want while that second player is literally the one forcing the first player to wait. If you can't see the difference between those two players and why one of those could be more important than the other then you are beyond help.
You have a choice in the situation and every choice a person makes is a reflection of what sort of person they are, if you are not willing to consider the perspective of the slugged survivor then you lack empathy. It really is that simple and is not overreaching, you are prioritizing yourself over another when the gain to you is minuscule. It is just a game so I'm not going to claim the slugged survivor is enduring any real torment or anything like that but its incredibly simple for you to just not do that and doing so when the gain to you is minuscule is you being selfish.
None of this is overreach, its basic human decency.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085385#Comment_4085385
I’m gonna be honest, this just feels like you’re projecting your own values onto everyone else. You don’t care about the difference between a 3k + hatch and a 4k, cool…but that doesn’t mean nobody else can enjoy the shutdown without it being some huge ego trip.
There absolutely is gameplay benefit for some of us – more bloodpoints, more satisfaction, feeling like you actually closed out the trial you invested 10–15 minutes into, not to mention certain side objectives I am also trying to complete.
And survivors “waiting for the match to finish so they can move on” is not automatically more important than the killer finishing their own win condition. Both sides are playing the same game, both sides are allowed to have goals.
As long as I am not holding the game hostage or griefing, playing for a 4k is just as valid as playing for hatch or escape – you don’t get to declare one side’s goals “detrimental” just because you don’t share them and that’s okay.
Bloodpoints and "satisfaction" (face it, ego) are external to the match itself and do not provide a gameplay benefit to the match. It does not make you more likely to win or make the match harder to win for the survivors. You got a 3k, you won, arbitrarily deciding that you only win with a 4k is a you problem and I don't see how it is anything other than ego driven and selfish.
I understand doing it for rift/tome challenges but also want those to be changed to not require a 4k and if we are talking about a personal challenge that is external to the game and therefore should not be taken into account. Again, you would get more bloodpoints by finishing the match more quickly and moving onto your next match, OnePumpWillie has even done the math on this or at least has claimed to.
You are actively forcing someone to wait with little to do instead of them being allowed to move on for your own "satisfaction." You are just trying to justify forcing someone else to wait while you get to do as you please (entitled and selfish). It doesn't have to be a big ego trip, its still you feeling entitled to a 4k to the detriment of another players ability to move on, that isn't OK and should not be something the game allows. Slugging for the 4k should be considered holding the game hostage, you are actively choosing to circumvent the intended endgame designed by the devs.
Asking you to have some empathy for the slugged player and being considerate to them isn't me projecting values, its me asking you to be a better person than the selfishness you are clearly displaying.
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The part you are missing is that the very existence of slowdown perks results in them being required. You will notice that people will simultaneously claim that slowdown perks are weak but then run them in every match, proving they are strong even if they are not as strong as they have previously been. Since they exist and are strong the game will become at least partially balanced around their usage. If the game wasn't balanced around their usage while simultaneously being strong perks you would see kill rates skyrocket. The only ways out are to delete them from the game, nerf them to actual uselessness, or in some other way limit the number the killer can bring and then alter gen speeds to account for the change. Until something like that happens gen regression/blocking perks will feel necessary because to some extent they are.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085356#Comment_4085356
Check offerings, see a hidden one and assume hatch shack and then check main if hatch isn't there
What if I down survivor on other side of the map and I know it's impossible to get in shack on time?
You don't have every advantage in the hatch race, when survivor can be waiting at finish line and even if you win, you have to win another race.
So by playing into this, you have to win normal game, hatch game and gate game.I personally don't care about 4k and just go afk after the third kill, simply because I can't be bothered to deal with hatch/gate part of the game. Asking killers to do it willingly seems entitled to me.
Whenever I need 4k for challenge, or something. I am going to slug for it, because it's simply better in every way.You accept that a 3k is a win and that the survivor is merely getting a pity escape and even then that pity escape exists primarily so that you both can move on to your next match, I don't understand why that is such a hard concept to grasp. If someone gloats about a hatch escape or tbags on hatch they are a moron and you should laugh at them. (Starting collapse when the last survivor dies would be an option for this. You would have some killers stand on hatch to prevent doors which happens now but I still think that would at least a little better.)
The survivor standing at the finish line is the only situation where the killer doesn't have the advantage and it isn't in play a lot of the time. I did exactly what I suggested in my killer matches today and in all cases no one actually brought a hatch offering and in only one of them did I not end up getting the 4k (admittedly a small sample size of 4). The gate standoff is even more rng dependent than hatch, short of hatch spawning at someones feet. Gates regularly spawn in such a configuration that they are impossible to open without the killer finding you and yes sometimes in a configuration that is impossible to patrol for some killers.
It isn't entitled of the survivor because it is clearly the intended way for the match to end once the killer has secured their 3k, victory. Choosing to circumvent that by forcing someone to sit slugged on the ground solely so you can get a 4k win instead of a 3k win is clearly entitled. I am not saying the current setup is perfect and would love to see it reworked but since I don't see that happening with BHVRs current release cycle I am simply hoping for a bandaid to alleviate the worst part which is objectively the slugging for the 4k.
I understand doing it for a challenge and would also love to see those change to not require a 4k. it makes no sense to me why anyone would simultaneously decide that hatch as currently implemented is in any way compatible with anything requiring a 4k but that is BHVR for you.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085374#Comment_4085374
Getting 4 out depends on how many are alive on 1 gen more and against m1 you can unhook very easily.
Getting 4 k even with sluging takes skill too plus some macro which isnt free as you claim if it was then every 2v1 were 4 k matches but they arent,arent they?
Escapes are (mostly thanks to hatch mechanic) way more easy then adepts on killers I got 3-4 survivor adepts per day few times its easy just get lucky or good team and you have it but as killer having weak perks and being held by addons is mostly way harder then survivor.
This mentality of adepts is simple especialy for people facing opponents that know how to hit skillchecks and having minimaly 1k hours then getting killer adept is true skill.
Everything leading up to getting a 4 out requires effort and skill on the part of the survivors and even with the increased endurance it still requires coordination from the survivors to get the person off hook and out the door and as someone that is practically always solo queue on survivor I can't just talk to my teammates to coordinate something. The survivors are also risking things going badly and giving the killer more than a 1k. I am not saying the endgame with four survivors alive is truly difficult but it does still require something from the survivors.
Getting to the 2v1 requires skill and effort from the killer but everything beyond that is basically a foregone conclusion. If you already have a survivor slugged or have more than a single gen remaining you effectively have infinite time. That plus bloodlust and the entity blocker means the survivor will go down eventually, if someone can't down a survivor before the last gen(s) gets done or before the slug bleeds out in a 2v1 they frankly suck at killer. Once you are in a 2v1 a 3k is practically guaranteed and a 4k is guaranteed if you slug for it and neither requires much real skill or effort at this point. The game will literally handhold you to the downs and all you have to do is chase the survivor until you accrue bloodlust and windows block.
I only brought up adepts because someone else simultaneously talked about adept and challenges that require a 4k and then also claimed challenges that require an escape no longer exist despite that being easily proven false. I don't care for adepts on either side and nothing forces you to go for them. I don't think they are indicative of skill on either side. I am very much in favor of changing killer adepts to not require a 4k.
More matches, even right now, end in a 4k than a 3k. The only reason there are not even more 4k matches is because people don't bother to slug for it or they give hatch. If everyone slugged for it there would be very few 3k matches.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085127#Comment_4085127
This just isn't true at all, at least for me. I enjoy my 4ks because I enjoy my bloodpoints and the feeling of a full shutdown, not because my ego lives or dies on a number.
There are absolutely times where I don’t slug for the 4k because it’s boring or I want the game to move on. Acting like every killer who plays for a 4k is some fragile ego main is just as silly as saying every survivor who goes for hatch is a tryhard sweatlord. People play for different goals, and both 3k + hatch and 4k are valid win conditions. There’s nothing wrong with that.
There is nothing wrong with playing for different goals until those goals are actively detrimental to someone else without there being a real gameplay benefit to you. The only thing you gain from a 4k over a 3k is a tiny amount of bloodpoints that you probably would have gotten faster by getting into and completing your next match sooner.
You enjoy the feeling of a full shutdown because of your ego, it doesn't have to live or die on the number but its still your ego driving that feeling. You're right that there isn't anything wrong with that until you remember there is someone just waiting for the match to finish so they can move on. If you know where the survivor is or the second last survivor is already on hook I see no reason not to go for the 4k but going out of your way to leave someone slugged to ensure a 4k is a problem.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085365#Comment_4085365
4 k isnt ego issue thats like calling 4 man out ego issue because you saved one guy and diddnt left killer pitty kill.
If you want hatch you can even bargin with killer like drop item and crounch and any old dchool player will get it but this thing is lost nowdays.
Getting a four out generally requires you to coordinate a save in endgame or have no one go down, things that actually take effort and skill. Slugging someone so that hatch doesn't spawn for a near guaranteed 4k requires zero skill.
@Chomperka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085363#Comment_4085363
If you want to let last survivor go you'll find your way, hatch isnt needed for that. Calling wanting a 4k "ego issue" is hilarious, thats literally killer's ultimate goal. Playing for a win? Oops bro you have ego issues. I want deserved 4k, thats it, I dont care If I stomped solo q with 2 Sable who disconnect after first down or fought tooth and nail against 4k hours SWF, I deserve this win regardless. If you want to win as surv then find SWF team for yourself and play with them, going solo q you basically agree to have zero control of who your teammates are and what will they do.
My personal experience is that while playinf solo q I still escape through gates good amount of games and solid teammates aren't that rare, if you have disconnects every game thats probably low mmr lobbies, you'll get better teammates more you play. And I have no issues dying/being tunneled by good killer, they just do what they need to win, its actually good practice play against someone actually good. It was frustrating back when we had challenges that required escape but thankfully they got rid of those.
In one post you refer to challenges and adepts that require a 4k but here you are dismissing challenges and adepts that require an escape, which do in fact still exist. Literally right now Rift Pass - Part 6 "Escape 1 Trial through a hatch" alongside a separate challenge to close the hatch. Part 3 - Escape 2 trials or Kill 2 survivors. Meanwhile, I don't see a single one that requires a 4k outside of the old tome challenges.
You win at 3k, you arbitrarily deciding to define winning as a 4k is a you problem.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085189#Comment_4085189
It's "dumb" gameplay securing a kill, but it's abolutely reasonable to force killer into rolling dice (which is often rigged with offering) on hatch and even if you win you have to try protect exit gates, which is not really fun gameplay either and another RNG aspect.
For killer it's better and often faster to just slug third survivor. Seems entitled to ask them to do otherwise.
As survivor you don't have to participate in this and can end this at any point, so I fail to see why killer should be forced to participate either.
For all I care they can extend abandon feature, so last two survivors can abandon if one of them is on ground, then you have nothing to complain about unless you are in reality just greedy for free escape. If time is your issue, this fix it.Check offerings, see a hidden one and assume hatch shack and then check main if hatch isn't there (and I would be fine if offerings, overall or just hatch, were removed). You have every advantage in the hatch race. It is only faster to slug the third survivor if you currently know where the last survivor is but that scenario is rarer than not knowing. Survivors cannot be entitled when its something the killer is choosing, its the killer feeling entitled to a 4k after they have already won. The killer isn't forced to participate they are literally choosing how the endgame goes and intentionally preventing an intended game mechanic.
In a 2v1 I do in fact continue to work on gens and try to pick up my slugged teammate if I can. I don't expect to escape but its entitled to think I should just give them the 4k for free. It exceptionally rarely results in a 2 out but it does happen, but sure those killers that struggle or lose in the 2v1 definitely deserved the 4k (and still typically get the 4k because the scenario is wildly unbalanced in their favor). I got No Mither in chaos shuffle a while back against a killer that struggled to down me. The killer still refused to hook me in the 2v1 to the point of me picking myself and my teammate up multiple times. The killer even dropped chase with me multiple times during the 2v1 so they could check on the gen my teammate was trying to work on. They finally relented and hooked my teammate and I got a much deserved hatch. The notion of it just being a survivor "greedy for a free escape" is ridiculous, the killer regularly doesn't deserve the 4k but typically they get it anyway.
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@Chomperka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085188#Comment_4085188
Hatch is what forces slugging, hatch is a problem, what else did you mean? Do killers slug because they are evil and want all survivors to feel bad and suffer and they just toxic people who should be banned from this game?
Also i still FAIL to see how wanting 4k is an entitlement. Its what games wants from you. Its a win. Would you agree with a mechanic that auto sacrifices last survivor? No? Not giving killer even 1 kill when you already won? Surely you are entitled person.
People will use any excuse they can to do whatever they please in the game. Its entitled to think you deserve a 4k instead of accepting that a 3k is a win and that hatch is an intended mechanic. Its you stroking your ego, that is entitlement, you literally feel entitled to a 4k. The killer has a lot of options for securing a kill in endgame, the survivor has no way to escape other than wait for their teammate to bleed out if the killer slugs for the 4k, the scenarios are not even remotely equivalent.
You are going out of your way to avoid something the devs intend as part of the endgame. You're the one making assumptions about how people play the game and what I think about it. There are a lot of good reasons to slug when playing killer, slug for the 4k isn't one of them. If you don't touch gens as survivor you just lose, claiming that people that sit on gens are not contributing is ludicrous.
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@Chomperka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085177#Comment_4085177
Yeah, thats why hatch is an issue. Honestly what kind of logic is that, killer wanting 4k is bad for the game? Why 4k is still in the game then? Devs are the ones who should fix it, not the players.
And of course i am talking about 2v1 scenario, letting survivors to defeat killer at 4v1 is batshit insane
What? How does any of what I said show that hatch is an issue? The problem isn't wanting the 4k, its intentionally creating a bad game experience when you don't have to and have already won. Its the definition of entitlement. We see killers all the time say that survivors shouldn't care about winning or they should consider winning something other than escaping. Yet when it comes to themselves they must win at any cost and it must be a 4k? Its hypocrisy. Devs can't fix something the playerbase won't let them fix and its not like we haven't tried, its been considered a problem for years.
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@Chomperka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085173#Comment_4085173
I have an option to do 4k, are there ANY reason why wouldn't want to do it? Only when its much more effort than 3k which is what we have now. I really dont think i need to reason why its normal for a player to want to secure a complete win.
>So survivors should get a way to kill the killer
Are there anyone who would prefer hatch to this? Sounds much more fun and interactive, especially if bhvr manage to implement it in a way that doesnt feel too one-sided.
Because it is bad for the game, I have friends that quit after one too many times being slugged for the 4 (or they only play killer now). I am a survivor main turned killer main in large part because of slugging for the 4k. You already have a complete win with a 3k, more is just ego stroking.
I would be ok with it being implemented, ideally only once we get down to the 2v1 but the level of vitriol we would see from a large segment of killer mains if the game ever implemented a way to kill the killer would be astounding.
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@Chomperka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085167#Comment_4085167
Bro i want 4k to win. Who said you don't need it? You get merciless killer and pretty sure its required for iridiscent emblem. You get MORE for getting 4k. Thats already enough reason for wanting it. Maybe last survivor should also be auto-sacrificed because 3 escapes is already a win for survs and entity doesn't want poor killer to feel bad?
Also i dont mind survivors winning, but only when its fair win, 5 genning and opening exit gates, not win button spawning under their butt.
You really don't get much more for a 4k vs a 3k and then only bloodpoints which I have also been told are meaningless when it benefits someones argument. I would actually be happier with the auto-kill system than the existing one simply because it eliminates slug for the 4k. (I read that wrong at first and thought you were talking about the 2v1 scenario) Many people love to argue that kill rates are inflated because of how easy it supposedly is to secure one in endgame, once again it just depends on if it helps their current argument.
@Chomperka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085166#Comment_4085166
Sorry but i am yet to see a horror movie where character gets to escape thanks to hatch spawning right under their legs. Mind sharing?
MCs in those movies almost always have to put A LOT of effort or mindgaming to escape
So survivors should get a way to kill the killer. That sounds like its what you are arguing for.
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@Chomperka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085152#Comment_4085152
i agree with your first statement, there should be some alternative objective for survivors when 2 of them remains so they can actually put some effort instead of just hiding. I never said slugging is healthy, but game literally forces you if you want to guarantee 4k after a deserved win. Slugging at 2 survs is the most logical and rational thing possible if you are going for 4k. Only reason every killer doesn't do that because its massive waste of time. Thats what is actually silly.
Also at the end of the day for survivors its a team game, if your team loses you also should lose. It should't be allowed to take a deserved win for killer just because someone guy unlucky with a team, well too bad bro, there are enough games that will allow your individual skill expression to matter more(or just play killer). "surv" side in the assymetrical genre isn't about that.
The thing your missing is that you don't need a 4k to win, you already won. If you have ever told someone they should care less about winning then wanting a 4k that badly is hypocrisy. Any mechanic they try adding for the 2v1 will be lambasted and never see the light of day unless it heavily favors the killer. The silly part is slugging for the 4k, you don't need to 4k. I don't see anything being added to the 2v1 unless it dramatically favors the killer side, otherwise it will be lambasted and never see the light of day, at which point we just end up with the same problem just in a different way.
While I agree that survivor is a team game and I don't consider it a win if I get hatch and my team dies I have seen too many people argue that its a team game when it benefits them and that it isn't when it benefits them. Its a team game when the survivors lose or you want to call a survivor bad but a solo game when talking about escape rates and what constitutes the survivor winning. Its whichever best fits their current argument. It also means that the killer needs to accept that just because they killed someone that doesn't make them better than that specific player.
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@Chomperka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085146#Comment_4085146
>ts a safety valve for the match to end by giving them something to try for instead of just hiding
Yeah absolutely it doesnt ever happen that 2 survivors remain and both just stealth hoping another one will be caught earlier then them so they can escape into a hatch. Never happens. Hatch is what saves us from that scenario… oh waitSo hatch should spawn sooner or both remaining survivors should have some reason to continue interacting with the game, like say a comeback mechanic or an alternate objective. Further extending the bad scenario by keeping slug for the 4k is just silly.
Also good job ignoring the scenario I described where the survivor does in fact deserve an escape.
@coldflame said:
survs are already allowed to leave without a penalty in a staggering amount of situations, hatch is already a free win for a lost game
the idea that killer-win endgame needs to favour them even more is absolutely insane
The insane thing is that anyone can reasonably think that slugging for the 4k is OK or healthy for the game. Anyone defending it proves they have zero care for the survivor experience in the game. Survivors can only abandon if everyone is hooked or downed, the entire rest of their team is bots, or they have been slugged without being hooked multiple times.
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@Chomperka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085136#Comment_4085136
Ego or not, you still didnt answer my question how is that fair that surv gets to escape with zero effort.
Because it isn't a win for the survivor, its a safety valve for the match to end by giving them something to try for instead of just hiding.
There are also scenarios where the survivor does in fact deserve that escape and it wasn't zero effort. I have been the last survivor standing because the killer was completely unable to catch me in chase, my team went down but I didn't. These still regularly turn out in the killers favor since they either slug for the 4k or just find hatch before I do. Before the abandon update that scenario regularly had the killer hump you as if they beat you. Killer ego IS the problem in these scenarios.
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There isn't anything BHVR could do about it or even a way they could detect it happening.
The game generates audio but its up to your operating system to route that audio to your desired output. Once the audio is passed out of the game BHVR has no control over it. Even if there was a way to say "go only to the output device with absolutely no changes" that output "device" could be a virtual audio cable that just routes it to the desired piece of software. You could even go as far as sending to an audio setup external to your PC that handles the equalization and other changes before it reaches your headset.
Its the same with ReShade, if BHVR banned its use but someone still really wanted the effect they could make adjustments to their monitor settings or just send the video output through an external system before it gets sent to the monitor and there wouldn't be any possibility of detection. I personally do use ReShade but almost solely because I find a few maps incredibly dark even with gamma maxed.
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@zufield said:
The complaints about him are largely overblown; he basically has little other than moving around the map fast and getting that first injury. After that he is just an M1 killer.
An M1 killer with a 65% kill rate and an 8% pick rate in high mmr, doesn't sound overblown to me.
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@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084051#Comment_4084051
I think it’d be 10x better if the killer could see the light marks or so kinda indicator or something, that may be too much visual overload, but especially that spring wood clip wouldn’t happen if killers could see the marks.
I do wish we got to see more of the clips though you’re 100% correct on that, especially for rpd and Greenville, because yeah Jason totally saw him run to shack (if the weapon wasn’t blocking it), but I want to know if the elusive made a significant difference when jc doubles back away from shack because Jason seemingly just continued on in Lisa direction.
I see no reason not to show the killer the light marks and am honestly ok if the perk gets other changes. I just find that concerns over changes to survivor and any new perks they might get tend to be overblown and this particular video really doesn't help that opinion.
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@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084045#Comment_4084045
but he also stated that because of the Gen split it forced him to play sweatier or he’d lose.
He doesn’t want a 3 gen so he can win harder.
He just wanted a decent gen split so he wouldn’t have to sweat he balls to win and importantly a fun game. And I don’t see the issue with that. For a game with no competitive queue and no tangible rewards for winning why should the default be sweat or lose? His main problem with that match aside from having to sweat to win was that it wasn’t even fun, for him or the survivor, especially that poor elodie
For a majority of the killer roster, and depending on your personal skill, you HAVE to sweat to win. For survivor you can play half asleep while high and still get consistent escape if you’re not unlucky enough to play against a crack addict nurse or blight.
And I’m sure at the MMR that content creators are at it’s even worse for them.
No one held a gun to his head and forced him to play sweatier, he chose to. If he had had a better, for him, gen split them he still wins and even if he would choose to play less sweaty in that situation another killer player might not have. Its the problem with anyone claiming we can just reduce gen speeds without targeting other aspects of the game. All you have done is make camping, tunneling, and slugging stronger with more incentive to take up those strategies.
Survivors also have to sweat to win and making the game easier for the killer side just results in the survivor side having to sweat harder to win. You cannot consistently escape in any match as survivor especially solo queue, to think otherwise requires you to ignore all official stats about the game. This is a game with two sides and any balance change that effects one effects the other in the opposite direction. Why is it ok for the survivors to need to sweat but not the killer? If you are as good as he is at the game the vast majority of teams already don't stand a chance against you, why make it even easier?
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@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084044#Comment_4084044
for the rpd one, he could’ve gone 3 different ways yeah he saw general direction at first but now has to guess as soon as Los breaks
For the Springfield one he gets elusive at the bottom of the stairs, Jason would’ve seen a blop on scratch marks on the door way and they could’ve gone anywhere.
The Greenville one is cut pretty short but jc is on death hook and Jason would very likely want him dead trying to spear him through the window, he wouldn’t of seen the scratch marks doubling back and only saw Lisa’s, additionally he could’ve ran back shack and Jason wouldn’t have known.
your reasoning for ward is pretty fair so I won’t bother disagreeing.
But also these examples aren’t even taking into the background footage outside of his one clip segment. Additionally to reiterate the perk isn’t just problematic because it’s strong; it’s strong on top of once again another case of power creep, that continues to hurt low tier killers with no regard for how affects them, can’t wait to have to play ghostface chasing literal ghosts while still having to kick 24 pre dropped pallets thanks to SB run to yellow meta.
And it’s still so dumb how bhvr put cross examination, scared to death and rampage in the same patch and said ‘yeah this is fine’
Rpd - did the killer even try though? The clip cuts so quickly we don't know
Springwood - if JC had not gone back into the building he wouldn't have gotten elusive, the killer didn't turn around after following and just continued on their merry way, skill issue or choosing to do something else
Greenville - if the killer didn't see JC go into shack they are blind
I feel for the lower tiers, I really do, but the balance issues surrounding them are a thing with or without this perk.
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@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084042#Comment_4084042
yeah I did, and I don’t understand how the examples were bad?
most of them he either got hit and used the speed boost to lose chase because the killer didn’t know where he went or he used broke LoS using a pallet or lithe and left the loop while the killer would still be looping like a fool.I also wouldn’t call someone choosing to play sadako as a main, entitled. As she’s very exploitable survivors can literally turn off her power
it’d be a different story if all he did was play S tiers, I mean he plays ghoul occasionally , but I wouldn’t call ghoul S tier more is like top of ABecause I missed the last portion of your comment
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz02qXfKloYIn this video we watch JC win a match on Garden of Joy, a survivor sided map yes, but their conclusion is that they should have had an easier to defend three gen. This is a match they WON and their conclusion is that they should have won harder and more easily. If that isn't entitled then nothing is. I used to watch JC and actually do agree with some of their takes but this made me stop.
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@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084042#Comment_4084042
yeah I did, and I don’t understand how the examples were bad?
most of them he either got hit and used the speed boost to lose chase because the killer didn’t know where he went or he used broke LoS using a pallet or lithe and left the loop while the killer would still be looping like a fool.From my comment in another thread
RPD - The killer sees which direction JC is going and clearly just doesn't follow
Greenville - The killer sees him go to shack and then picks up their spear, probably aiming at someone else
Springwood - Elusive doesn't start until he has run a ways back into the building, there would be scratchmarks going into the building
Disturbed Ward - this is the only one where it maybe lost the killer but its not like the killer actually looked for very longAnd for that disturbed ward one I have also noted that JC has no hooks, is chasing at main, and the game is down to one gen, the killer likely chose to go find the gen that is about to pop.
If this is the standard required for survivor perk to be considered busted then killers have serious skill issues. You are not looking at these clips critically.
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@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084038#Comment_4084038
Someone already linked the JC vid. And I’m sure there’s more out there by now
and it depends what killer you playing and what maps you were getting.You can see my comments in every thread the JC video has been posted. His examples are atrociously bad, did you actually watch it or just take everything he said at face value? JC may be good at the game but he is also incredibly entitled and incredibly killer biased.
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@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4084036#Comment_4084036
Claiming a perk to be OP while using actual gameplay and evidence to support it being OP are two very different things.
I don't see any gameplay here, do you? I've watched one video that included some gameplay about the perk and the examples they used were awful. I spent a few hours using the perk in the PTB and got value from it in a small number of matches. I played against it and still haven't lost a single killer match on the PTB.
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@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4083801#Comment_4083801
It blows my mind that people can post objective, and factual information and then still proceed to get triple the downvotes compared to upvotes.
It’s no wonder the devs make awful decisions if all they see positive reinforcement on is just blatantly wrong/misleading posts.
I downvoted solely for "this website is an echo chamber cesspool of survivor players who can't admit when things are overtuned and in favor of them." Everywhere and everyone that doesn't follow a strict killer sided bias gets called that or something similar. You can see from the actual PTB thread on the survivor perks that there are more people there saying they think the perk is overtuned or potentially problematic than those saying otherwise. Does that sound like an "echo chamber cesspool of survivor players" to you?
The most milquetoast changes or perks targeting survivors and we get people coming out of the woodwork to claim they are OP, even the near useless teamwork perks from stranger things 2 had claims in the PTB feedback threads of being strong. Meanwhile all three of Henry's perks are actually good and there wasn't nearly the same level of concern with them. I don't think there should have been concern about them but the difference was and continues to be stark.
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@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4083947#Comment_4083947
First off why would they show footage of them losing to it? That could be dismissed as a skill issue. It's better to show footage of them using it effectively.
Secondly, it took them months to deal with problematic perks in the past. Sometimes years. Regardless of side. Though objectively speaking, overall, overpowered survivor perks last longer than overpowered killer perks.
Pain Resonance, the genkick meta, Circle of Healing, Dead Hard, Decisive Strike, Made For This.
Vigil has been quietly overpowered for ages now.
I look at this perk and I see Made For This and Vigil. A perk that is incredibly powerful that won't get fixed for a long time if it goes live.
Everything gets passed off as a skill issue, you did it yourself.
If this perk goes live it could make killers insufferable to play for months due to bad survivors not knowing how to use it well and running defense for it
It doesn't have to just be them showing themself losing to it, they can show both themself using it and themself losing to it but its always just matches of them winning against perks they say are problematic.
I see a single instance that maybe shows them using Cross Examination effectively, their last example at disturbed ward, but its a chase at main building so the killer could have simply decided to drop chase especially with a single gen left (can't tell if main is completed or not) and JC with no hooks. Again this is on the PTB without MMR, we have no idea what the skill level of any of these killer is. JC's skill level can at least be gleaned from the rest of their content.
Pain Resonance, the genkick meta, Circle of Healing, Dead Hard, Decisive Strike, Made For This.
The most recent of these is Made for This (I think) which came out and was nerfed in 2023, that isn't recent and while five months is a while it isn't years. I am not saying this never happens (or happened) or that it couldn't happen again but it hasn't actually happened recently. Vigil could absolutely take another hit (nerfed September last year, though it was the least they could do) and shouldn't effect killer powers but I don't think it truly rises to the level of Made for This or the others you mention.
To some extent I accept that I am simply skeptical of complaints about survivor perks here. All three of Henry's perks are decent but I saw more comments about the survivor perks than his, even the near useless teamwork ones.
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@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4083932#Comment_4083932
OP did a bit of a disservice with this screenshot, because it misses the original context and point the video was trying to make.
BHVR in the past knew that stealth perks which could be used in chase needed to have some kind of activation condition in order for them to be balanced. This does unfortunately mean that the activation condition is too limiting to be usable for most, but the alternative of making one that's too strong is far worse than making just another underpowered perk.
They probably do still know this, they just misfired on Cross Examination, because… well, quite bluntly, I don't think they're good enough at their own game to know how to play tiles well enough to make use of this perk. Most likely when they play survivor, they behave like most bad survivors I run into, aka they do one loop at a tile, either misplay and get hit or drop the pallet, then leave.
I'm actually not trying to be mean with that, unlike a lot of people I don't expect the devs to be masters at this extremely unique game with no transferable skills from any other game. But that's why it's critical we give them feedback when they mess up. Which they did here.
Even more now when their balance cadence has come to a screeching halt and they don't seem willing to make meaningful balance adjustments. If this perk goes live it could make killers insufferable to play for months due to bad survivors not knowing how to use it well and running defense for it (like what's going on in this thread to be blunt). Basically Made For This 2: Electric Boogaloo
The last balance updates were a month ago. You think balance changes have come to a halt because its the current topic content creators have been piling into to get views. Were those updates ideal? No, but considering they came along with diminishing returns it seems likely that diminishing returns was the development focus.
Months? How often in recent history has it actually taken months to make changes based on killer complaints, even over the most mild of topics? Fast track was updated in 9.5 on March 17th and then nerfed in 9.6 on April 28th, just barely over a month and honestly not enough time to get real data about the perk. Fog vials were nerfed a week after release and the same patch that nerfed them re-enabled streetwise (meaning it took less than a week to killswitch) but sure it took FOREVER for them to make those changes. It took them longer to fix Springtrap being invisible coming out of doors and this was the same amount of time it took them to nerf Krasue from her ridiculous release state.
Did you watch the video? I watched it, there is no context to it that makes the perk seem good. Where are the matches that show JC getting owned by the perk if its such a problem? Why do they never show themselves losing to the perk(s) and instead only show matches they won?
If the patch goes live as is and it truly makes killers miserable then it will be patched within a couple weeks and given the overreaction we see here and elsewhere I don't expect it will go live as is. Face facts, killer complaints have the developers ears and get fixed all while pushing through shadow nerfs to the survivor side (I am still waiting for a content creator to cover how easy blocking pallet saves has become for killers). Survivor players are simply not allowed even a single bad match or they are labelled as bad or needing to learn. Killers get sympathy.
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The examples used to showcase how "broken" the perk is are bad.
RPD - The killer sees which direction JC is going and clearly just doesn't follow
Greenville - The killer sees him go to shack and then picks up their spear, probably aiming at someone else
Springwood - Elusive doesn't start until he has run a ways back into the building, there would be scratchmarks going into the building
Disturbed Ward - this is the only one where it maybe lost the killer but its not like the killer actually looked for very longIn all cases JC cuts as quickly as possible to the next clip removing all context from what the killer is choosing to do next. In the disturbed ward example in particular Jason is still possibly nearby in Omnipresent Evil and would start hearing sounds from them. Do people just forget that there isn't any MMR on the PTB?
I'm fine with the perk getting changed but I also think the concern for it is incredibly overblown. JC in particular is incredibly entitled and shouldn't be used as a source for game balance.
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@Detromen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4083614#Comment_4083614
Well I would say that we shouldnt be completly pessimistic. While its true that players will most likely win 6/10 games, its not because of good balancing. I believe that if BHVR actually taught its playerbase on how to play this game it would make a difference. I would say that 60% killrate is a good goal that BHVR they set up for them self. While I do understand why you would think that my ideas for changes are harsh, I would like to say that some things has to change before these ideas for exhaustion can actually happen.
The playerbase does actually know how to play the game despite content creators shouting the opposite. The average survivor is average just like the average killer player is, that is how averages work. There is no way to force a more casual player to learn but at least half has learned and the result on the survivor side is continuing to lose more matches than you win. I truly think that killer mains, talking about content creators here the vast majority of whom are killer mains, are just perfectly happy to blame their teammates for their losses on survivor without any further thought put into it.
What this actually tells us is that the skill floor required to do well on survivor is higher than the skill floor required to do well on killer. Obviously in both cases it depends on what killer is being played as/against where exactly that floor exists but outside the D tier we are looking at the survivors having to play better than the killer to win. Even four man swf lose more than they win unless all four players are on the extreme high end of survivor skill and playing in an extremely coordinated manner. In solo queue your choice is be good at the game AND run meta or accept that you will lose the majority of your matches and even then you will still lose more than you win.
The game just tends to snowball, so when a killer is winning it can look like the survivors are bad even when they are decent and the same goes for the killer. A single hit can be what loses the game for the survivor side. There isn't a single mistake that can actually lose you the match on the killer side so the killer is more likely to snowball and then think the survivors were bad.
Perks are going to have different requirements because each side plays differently, they engage in some of the same things but in completely different ways. Your example of gen regression is embellished, if you can't down or hook a survivor then you won't win the match with or without gen regression perks (and deadlock literally requires you to do nothing). Both sides have perks that activate for doing nothing or almost nothing and some with ridiculous activation requirements.
Exhaustion is problematic when you are facing ghostface but necessary when you are facing blight and its similar for anti-tunnel. Use anti-tunnel aggressively against ghostface and ghostface becomes likely to lose but if you don't play like that against a decent blight the survivors are practically guaranteed to lose. This is the thing truly keeping lower tier killers down, the disparity in strength between killers. The survivor role must be balanced such that it can face the strongest thing killers can do and possibly succeed even in solo queue and that isn't something that occurs even now. Solo queue will lose the majority of their matches against S and A tier killers so long as the killer is decent even while being decent themselves and that extends to many of the lower tier killers as well. The solution starts with decreasing the strength disparity between killers, then we can rebalance survivor around this new more even strength level.
The problem with gen regression/block is that its very existence makes it necessary to run. Slowing down the game is the strongest thing you can do as killer, doubly so since the longer the game goes on the stronger the killer is. So long as these perks exist the game must be balanced around the possibility that a blight will bring a full loadout of gen regression perks. The only solution is to delete these perks from the game, nerf them into non-existence, or create a maximum number that the killer can run (like how exhaustion prevents stacking multiple exhaustion perks). Once again the game would require drastic rebalancing if any of that occurs.
My basic conclusion is that its killer disparity that is the biggest problem, not perks or anything else. That isn't a great state of affairs but at least when you are playing killer you can choose which killer you want to play and if you are aware of how strong a given killer is you can decide how difficult you want your match to be. Survivor doesn't get a choice and has to be prepared to go against the strongest killer running a full meta loadout. If tomorrow BHVR implemented a system where I could setup multiple loadouts and get different ones based on the strength of the killer I am facing with different restrictions on perks I would be OK with that but I don't see that happening.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4056570#Comment_4056570
I mean pyramid head is playable in 2v8 and he's one of the less recent killers
They are able to go to each license holder and discuss changes to the licensing agreement. It's a lot harder if the relationship with the license holder is shaky (or the license holder just doesn't care). Certain license holders may simply not want their character appearing alongside another killer for whatever reason. This can't apply to a survivor character who must appear alongside others in order to be included in the game, license holders that won't budge on this are either getting a killer only chapter or won't be added at all. Same goes if they are not OK with the killer attacking characters from other frachises, they just won't get added at all.
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@BreadSilence said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4056570#Comment_4056570
and your proof for any of this is….???
@ArkInk said:
A new Slasher Radio interview with Mcote has brought some nerve-wracking news.
https://youtu.be/i8_cF5-YDRE?si=PrpWESrhpkI46ao3
At around 17:30 in the video, Mcote talks about the potential issues that might arise around including licensed killers into the 2v8 roster, as two killers side by side could upset certain rights holders.
For companies like Capcom and Konami, I imagine this isn't a huge deal as they do crossovers like Smash relatively frequently. But for the dicier companies like New Line and Netflix? I'm worried gamers.
Also
Image of a Peanits post, uncertain where originally posted
The license holders need to agree to their inclusion and may even require reworking the license. Note as well that when the AOT skins weren't usable in 2v8 it was just the killer side you couldn't use them on, you could still use the survivor skins.
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@BreadSilence said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/464087/why-so-few-killers-for-2v8
why would it have anything to do with licensing? If a killer is already playable in the main game then there's nothing about the licensing agreements that say anything like "oh but you can only use this character for regular 1v4 but not a model that doubles the amount of killers and survivors." Doesn't make any sense.
That logic is also already flawed by the fact we can use every single licensed survivor in 2v8, so why would it be any different for killers ulle?
@HoodedWildKard said:
I doubt it's a licensing issue. I'd imagine it's just a lot of work to rebalance each killer for 2v8.
The survivor licensing would already have included statements about allowing them to work together with characters from other franchises and original dbd characters, you can't include them in the game without that happening.
Killer licensing wouldn't have needed such a clause and without one you can't have them work together. Myers license holders, as an example, may not want him to appear alongside other killers and may especially not like them cooperating with another killer. Terms like that would likely already be in place for newer killers unless the license holder refused to allow the killer to be added with such terms.
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@MythicalTwinkie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4056432#Comment_4056432
True, I was incorrect about map sizes, but I am right about EVERYTHING else. The proposed ideas for changed are infact meant to make the gamemode harder for survivors since 2v8 is nothing but survivor sided slop.
No where did I say survivors should need to complete 10 90 second gens. I only suggested they needed to put more effort in. (I.E more total repair time). Funny how you instantly called me a liar (which you are only 50% correct since I was wrong, but not intentionally trying to lie) and then lie about what I said.
Catch up mechanic is in fact completely useless.
Chases are in fact much easier on EVERY map thanks to every tile having a pallet, and some tiles having double pallets.
Chases with 2 Killers is in fact not impossible. I've had plenty of chases with both killers that didn't instantly end. Even then I do understand that it's much harder hence my suggestion to prevent double taps.
Even if I didn't call the community out for what it is, I'd still get downvotes because I don't share the same collective view that the entitled survivor mains have.
I didn't call you a liar but how anyone could play the mode even once and think the maps have been doubled in size is beyond me. I have seen content creators use the "doubled" map size though so I called it spreading falsehoods and figured it was likely you picked this up from one of them. You don't specify how much you want generator time increased by or how many more gens you want or how much smaller you want maps to be, just a vague "effort" statement. The values in 1v4 are not a good comparison point in the first place since the mode is balanced entirely differently and the map sizes are a perfect example of that.
The mode is not the survivor sided stomp people make it out to be. I have only had time for 7 killer matches this go around so far but have won 4 of them (7 or 8k each time), one tie (4k), and two losses (both 2k). The killer content creators I watch also tend to win in the mode as well, not always but no one should be expecting to win every match especially in a mode that is meant to be more casual.
Catchup mechanic has won me games on both sides, you being unable to realize how much it is helping/hurting on both sides is a you problem. It has flaws for sure but those don't make it useless, I don't think you would be asking for it to be gotten rid of if you truly thought it did nothing. I think some sort of comeback mechanic is necessary given you need eight survivors who could have wildly varying levels of skill and that's before getting into how different in skill the killers could be or how varied skill levels could be when you look at both together.
Chases against two killers are impossible for anything longer than a few seconds unless at least one of the killers is bad. If one of the two drops its stops being a chase against two killers. It is incredibly easy to double tap or pincer the survivors, giving the survivor endurance would extend the chase momentarily and even then only if neither killer has a dash/teleport chase power. Those being the main form of chase in the mode would be incredibly boring for both sides and killers would immediately tire of the constant endurance even when it is expected (I for sure would) and would likely just start waiting it out instead of two tapping or go right back to chasing separately.
If you want to see the community change that includes you needing to change, your statement just feeds right back into the status quo you claim to dislike.
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Maps were not doubled in size, not even close to doubled in size. The biggest change was Coal Tower going from 132 sqt to 180 sqt an increase of 1.36x, many are not even 1.2x bigger (Shelter woods got a tiny 4 sqt increase). This is why the generators speeds and numbers are the way they are, maps were not actually made that much bigger.
If you want the generators to take as long as they do in 1v4 and have survivors complete ten then maps would need to actually be double in size and at that point the killers would need to split up even more and have fewer opportunities to join forces. You would just be playing two matches of 1v4 on the same map or the killers would pick the hardest six gen they could find and guard only those gens every game, especially since you want to make these already not doubled maps even smaller and put more gens on them. With 90 second gens, two killers, and eight survivors needing to coordinate to break the gen setup survivors would likely lose almost every time.
The comeback mechanics effect is much more obvious on the survivor side, you are likely just unaware of how much it is helping you when playing killer. It has won me matches on both sides.
Chases are easier on some maps but not all and immediately become impossible for the survivor when the killers team up. Teaming up in chase is already hugely incentivized and most classes further incentivize it, it doesn't need further incentive.
If you don't want downvotes maybe don't start a conversation by calling everyone else rancid and toxic and maybe don't spout falsehoods about map sizes.
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@Terror_Misu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054804#Comment_4054804
This is just wishful thinking, high mmr = high level play, wether that be in solo or swfs.
And right there is the disconnect. I wonder if this sentiment if shared by a vast majority of killers and survivors alike. Its a HUGE disconnect imo.
When Ferrous said "Matchmaker doesn't care above the soft cap and will happily pair players with leagues different skill, that isn't a competitive match or high level play.", he was correct. This has been said by BHVR. Above the soft cap, a LARGE pool of players open up, and your score will simply be in that pool. I think its around 1600? Anyway, this is something you cannot refute: it is fact. At least last time I checked, which admittedly has been awhile.
New rework coming though, so hopefully all this wont matter anyway.
edit I: Bored, so going to try and find these 'non-cement' figures I spoke of. Will return!
edit II: Bhvr really doesn't show anything on mmr do they? Can't find the 'brackets', and I think the 1600 I pulled from another thread talking on this subject, so I'll just detract that. There is a break point, just can't confirm 1600 or otherwise. Anywho!We know they use 1800 for "high MMR" on the killer side based on its usage in these stats. It might be the same on the survivor side but no certainty there.
I would hope that this high MMR range isn't the same as the soft cap but if it is then all of these stats become meaningless. Most people at least think the soft cap is fairly easy to hit. Backfilling is a thing but I have faced too many opponents that clearly don't know what they are doing to think all of them can be explained by just backfilling, even extremely skilled players get opponents like that with some frequency. It's possible backfilling is really just they prevalent but that alone would make the soft cap and these stats meaningless.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054380#Comment_4054380
I did
That doesnt adress anything. Why do you feel like you have the right to make claims about high mmr swfs if this is how you feel?
If I never played killer and made claims about how killer was played you would rightfully take umbrage with it. You don't get to make claims about how solo survivors play when you don't play solo survivor.You have no experience their.
Have you considered getting better so you can counter the counters
Every counter to ghouls counters involve ghoul predicting if a player will do it or not. Thats called counter adaptation its not a counter to a counter lol.
If matchmaking isn't going to create competitive matches then no it doesn't.
High mmr is high level play wether you like it or not.
You won't be satisfied with any way I address it. I went overboard and fessed up, I do not care if that isn't enough for you. Of all the things in this game "high mmr" (cause you totally know for sure) swf is the least different to the others and the entire time I was trying to uplift solos, who you underestimate.
Every counter to ghouls counters involve ghoul predicting if a player will do it or not. Thats called counter adaptation its not a counter to a counter lol.
Exactly man, get good. Killers expect survivors to win 50/50's with ease and regularity, so all you have to do is the same.
High mmr is high level play wether you like it or not.
Matchmaker doesn't care above the soft cap and will happily pair players with leagues different skill, that isn't a competitive match or high level play. You are literally arguing for us to take the 210 Trapper winstreak seriously and compare it to the 202 survivor winstreak, every killer is getting nerfed.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054290#Comment_4054290
Why did you ignore this?:
notice how you were trying to claim I was trying to put you down based on your experience, I wasn't, you are.Trying to use a reversal just takes away the honesty in your conversation and ruins credibility.
You literally have no idea what you are talking about. If I never played killer and made claims about how killer was played you would rightfully take umbrage with it. You don't get to make claims about how solo survivors play when you don't play solo survivor.Lol i guess you dont remember you said this right? You said i couldn't make claims about solo survivor because i didnt play it.
Your discussions aren't in good faith, and this is proof of it. I cant make claims about solo survivor, but you can make claims about SWFs at a high level when you dont play it?
I thought you believed that not having experience in the area means you cant make claims about it?? What happen? What changed? Is it that you got called out for your lack of experience and now its a different story? Its a problem now?
And whats funny about this, is that never said i dont play solo, you did. Everyone has played solo. But you admitted to only playing swf with casuals, and only playing low teir killers and being a "ok" killer. Your not credible.
address this ^
I play mostly low tier killers, that doesn't mean I have never played ghoul, he makes the game so much easier its silly.
This statement alone makes it clear you dont play ghoul and if you do its at a very low level. In higher lobbies survivors actually exercise his counters.
If you are arguing that matchmaking does create competitive matches
Im not about to get into the back and forth about opinions on matchmaking. If your in high mmr your playing at a competitive level, simple. Wether that be in solo or SWF.
A truly competitive game wouldn't shoot for a 60% kill rate in the first place, but since it benefits your preferred role you're ok with it.
I dont have a preferred role. I play both, and i enjoy both.
Of course you are just going to dismiss everything I say again because you are not looking for a discussion
You dismissed yourself with your own words.
If I never played killer and made claims about how killer was played you would rightfully take umbrage with it. You don't get to make claims about how solo survivors play when you don't play solo survivor.
Im just showing you i feel the same way about your lack of experience.
address this ^
I did
I agree I went overboard with that statement…
This statement alone makes it clear you dont play ghoul and if you do its at a very low level. In higher lobbies survivors actually exercise his counters.
Have you considered getting better so you can counter the counters? Maybe put some onus for skill on yourself instead of just the survivors.
Im not about to get into the back and forth about opinions on matchmaking. If your in high mmr your playing at a competitive level, simple. Wether that be in solo or SWF.
If matchmaking isn't going to create competitive matches then no it doesn't.
I play killer, you don't have to like it but I do, and I find it to be a much easier time than survivor, I do find it more stressful than survivor but still easier.
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@top500spiderman said:
As I noted 40 → 48 isn't the real gap, that number is based solely on escapes of high mmr solo players in any match not matches with four high mmr solos
This is more wishful thinking.
I have enough knowledge and experience to discuss this topic
You openly admitted to saying you only play low tier killers and that you are an "ok" killer when you do play. You also said anytime you SWF you play with casuals, and you mostly solo Q. Unless were having a discussion purely on Solo Q. You really dont, but of course you have your opinions.
And whats even more funny is that somewhere in this discussion you mentioned ghoul being a issue in this game, now you admit you only play low tier killers. Your angle is just not reliable.
you are dramatically overstating the complexity of this game.
Quote me where I did.
You have no experience in a comp setting either, public matches are not comp
Public matches can be very competitive, again this aligns with someone who only solos.
You may not like it but I am above the soft cap on the killer side, I have this experience, that I don't have killer sided opinions even though I am is your real issue.
Given your earlier admission, I dont believe it but thats just me.
notice how you were trying to claim I was trying to put you down based on your experience, I wasn't, you are.
Trying to use a reversal just takes away the honesty in your conversation and ruins credibility.
You literally have no idea what you are talking about. If I never played killer and made claims about how killer was played you would rightfully take umbrage with it. You don't get to make claims about how solo survivors play when you don't play solo survivor.
Lol i guess you dont remember you said this right? You said i couldn't make claims about solo survivor because i didnt play it.
Your discussions aren't in good faith, and this is proof of it. I cant make claims about solo survivor, but you can make claims about SWFs at a high level when you dont play it?
I thought you believed that not having experience in the area means you cant make claims about it?? What happen? What changed? Is it that you got called out for your lack of experience and now its a different story? Its a problem now?
And whats funny about this, is that never said i dont play solo, you did. Everyone has played solo. But you admitted to only playing swf with casuals, and only playing low teir killers and being a "ok" killer. Your not credible.
You are dismissing my arguments without actually challenging them. This conversation is for sure over.
The conclusion was already made, agree to disagree. But after reading your earlier admission of your experience. Continuing anything else about the topic would be meaningless.
You're not as good as you think you are. I have as much experience as you do in a truly competitive setting, which is to say none, matchmaking doesn't allow for this game to be truly competitive in any sense. The odd game might be but the majority will not be. You call it wishful thinking but how often do you hear solo's complain about their teammates, I bet its why you don't solo too, you're not ok with the randoms you get.
I play mostly low tier killers, that doesn't mean I have never played ghoul, he makes the game so much easier its silly.
If you are arguing that matchmaking does create competitive matches (at which point you are arguing that matchmaking works btw) then lets see where that logically leads:
- Trapper has a 210 game win streak, made by someone who is very good but not a comp killer
- The very best survivor team in the world won 202 games in a row
Thus the game is incredibly and wildly killer sided since a D-tier killer has a longer win streak than the very best survivor team in the world and that Trapper record could likely be beaten if a comp killer put their mind to it. Since this is a truly competitive game with working matchmaking we can't look at anybody but the very best for balancing. Thus every killer in the entire game is in need of a nerf. Does that sound right to you? Cause its the logical conclusion of your opinions. A truly competitive game wouldn't shoot for a 60% kill rate in the first place, but since it benefits your preferred role you're ok with it.
I am honest about where I think my skill level is based on comparison to others that truly play at a higher level than me. I am probably above average in truth but compared to those killer, ya I am just OK. I would happily re-evaluate my stance if you had provided any actual evidence but you haven't, you just make vague gesture towards kill rates (but its all just context), while vaguely making claims about swf efficiency. Your so clouded by ego you can't see how easy the ways you play make the game when playing in public matches. You are going out of your way to make things easy for yourself and then claiming you want competitive matches.
I agree I went a overboard with that statement but I am tired of people looking at these escape rates and then turning around and claiming the game is survivor sided and that gen speeds or heal speeds are a problem, its actual lunacy. The same people love to harp on survivors and claim that the majority are bad, I don't actually disagree with that statement but would add that the majority of killers are bad at the game as well. They just think they are good because the game inherently favors them (but they will refuse to accept that).
Of course you are just going to dismiss everything I say again because you are not looking for a discussion, just capitulation.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054161#Comment_4054161
the gap is smaller than you think
- 40% → 48% isnt a small gap.
2. you cant discuss the difference when you have no experience in swfs at a high level.
The gap in efficiency is so much smaller than you make it out to be
Your saying this with no experience in a competative 4 man or as a comp killer. Which is why for you to say something so obviously wrong makes sense.
There is absolutely nothing difficult about hopping onto comms and telling each other where you are and where the killer is and calling things out and acting with that additional information
This is just wishful thinking
you don't have real experience in a competitive 4-man either, because public matches are not competitive
Another obvious tell tale sign sign that all you play is solo Q survivor.
I just dont see how this discussion between me and you can continue when your giving a opinion about the gap in solos and swfs with no experience against or in a high level swf. Its just laughable honestly, because the things you say align with someone with no experience in those fields of play.
As I noted 40 → 48 isn't the real gap, that number is based solely on escapes of high mmr solo players in any match not matches with four high mmr solos and as I and others have noted this gap doesn't just come down to gen efficiency that is an oversimplification. I have enough knowledge and experience to discuss this topic, notice how you were trying to claim I was trying to put you down based on your experience, I wasn't, you are. I communicate complex topics as part of my job every day, it really would be that easy for me to slot into a swf, they are not doing anything monumental, you are dramatically overstating the complexity of this game. You have no experience in a comp setting either, public matches are not comp, thinking they are is just silly. You may not like it but I am above the soft cap on the killer side, I have this experience, that I don't have killer sided opinions even though I am is your real issue.
You are dismissing my arguments without actually challenging them. This conversation is for sure over.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054080#Comment_4054080
Look at all of my arguments, they are all focused on trying to convince you that solo players are better and more efficient than you claim.
Which was the problem. I’ve told you countless times that this was never about whether solo players could play efficiently or not. It was about the level of efficiency and coordination that differs between the two. You just can’t seem to understand that because that would require stepping into a realm of play you don’t have experience in, so you feel safer arguing whether they can play efficiently or not, ignoring the actual argument.
It's not an assumption when you stated you swf, brought up ghoul, and have top500Spiderman as a username.
Saying that I play in 4 man and ghoul being mentioned doesnt = You play swf and ghoul, you play the game on easy mode. Iv played/play everything.
That comes from a lot of solo experience, I am relying on that experience to make these arguments.
Again, this was never about wether solo players could play efficiently or not. I encourage you to go back and revisit my replies to you. But this time read and make sure you read with an open mind.
I think the funniest thing about this whole argument is that in most other threads I would be applauded for saying that solo queue players can play well and be efficient. Just here is it a problem.
You were arguing against a point that was and still is invisible.
Overall, I feel like you’re overstepping your actual experience and making assumptions about what you could do or what you think you can do when it’s clear you don’t have experience in a competitive 4-man setting. That’s not enough for you to be credible in these discussions, especially when you already admitted it. And honestly, saying you’re an “OK” killer followed by saying you only play low-tier killers, then claiming you think your in the high mmr bracket is something i would take with a grain of salt. Especially given how you frame your posts.
With that said, I dont think this discussion would value any more going any further with you respectfully. We can just agree to disagree as you said before.
Which was the problem. I’ve told you countless times that this was never about whether solo players could play efficiently or not. It was about the level of efficiency and coordination that differs between the two. You just can’t seem to understand that because that would require stepping into a realm of play you don’t have experience in, so you feel safer arguing whether they can play efficiently or not, ignoring the actual argument.
You are the one refusing to understand. The better solo players are and the more efficient they are the smaller this gap is. That is what I have been arguing this whole time, the gap is smaller than you think. I said agree to disagree earlier because it became incredibly obvious you were refusing to understand this or even acknowledge that this is what I was arguing. The gap in efficiency is so much smaller than you make it out to be, you just don't have enough solo queue experience to see that.
Overall, I feel like you’re overstepping your actual experience and making assumptions about what you could do or what you think you can do when it’s clear you don’t have experience in a competitive 4-man setting.
There is absolutely nothing difficult about hopping onto comms and telling each other where you are and where the killer is and calling things out and acting with that additional information. Unless we are talking about an actual competitive league (which is totally irrelevant to public matches) you don't have real experience in a competitive 4-man either, because public matches are not competitive, as I said before, matchmaking does not allow them to be.
That’s not enough for you to be credible in these discussions, especially when you already admitted it. And honestly, saying you’re an “OK” killer followed by saying you only play low-tier killers, then claiming you think your in the high mmr bracket is something i would take with a grain of salt. Especially given how you frame your posts.
I have enough experience and knowledge to be credible (notice that I never called you not credible, I simply tried to show that you have a gap in your knowledge and I asked you to consider filling it). The soft cap is not high mmr, and if it is then matchmaking and every stat we have gotten from "high mmr" is well and truly useless and absolutely none of this matters because every stat about it is including far too many players under "high mmr." I am above the soft cap on both sides, based on some of the people I have been placed with and against, I would still hope I am not being included in "high mmr" on the killer side but if I am then none of the stats are worthwhile for anything. If people couldn't be above the soft cap but just OK at killer (and same for survivor) we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place because as you can see from "top killer" streams "gen rushing" doesn't actually work against them, they still win. There would also be a light at the end of the solo queue tunnel where you are only paired with good players, that doesn't happen.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054056#Comment_4054056
Making assumptions about how I play to give yourself leverage doesnt change the fact that your speaking confidently about something you dont really have firsthand experience in. Even if you hadn’t said it outright, the way you frame your arguments makes that pretty clear. Watching streams or Youtube videos can definitely be useful, but relying on that alone isnt the same as actually playing in those environments. Without that experience, its easy to misinterpret what your seeing or underestimate how coordinated teams actually function in practice.
It's not an assumption when you stated you swf, brought up ghoul, and have top500Spiderman as a username. The only question is if you solo queue, a topic you have ignored.
I've watched enough to know how a coordinated swf functions. If I wanted to I could find one tomorrow and slot in without issue outside of possible personality conflicts, they really are not doing anything that complicated. Move around the map, take chase, do gens, play for saves, take advantage of perks, call stuff out. Most of this I do solo anyway. This game is just not that complex and there really isn't any way someone with experience in the game could misinterpret anything. It's all incredibly straightforward.
According to most the soft cap is not hard to hit. If that's actually the case then I am above it on both sides, that is as high level as you can get in this game without going comp. I have played against what appeared to be coordinated teams and both won and lost to them, same goes for players with 1000's of hours. In every match I lost I played poorly. My kill rate is still above 60% on every killer I have a reasonable amount of time in despite thinking I'm just ok, then again I am comparing myself to these "top killers" not the average kill rate.
Look at all of my arguments, they are all focused on trying to convince you that solo players are better and more efficient than you claim. That comes from a lot of solo experience, I am relying on that experience to make these arguments.
I think the funniest thing about this whole argument is that in most other threads I would be applauded for saying that solo queue players can play well and be efficient. Just here is it a problem.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054034#Comment_4054034
Watching other players can be useful, but when someone doesnt have much experience playing killer at a higher level or playing coordinated SWF, it starts to show as the discussion goes deeper. At that point the argument ends up leaning heavily on personal experience, which in your case, is limited.
Lol, now that I point out how these "top killers" perform it isn't good enough. My personal experience is way less limited than yours. I play solo survivor and low tier killers, you play swf and ghoul. I'm playing this game on hard mode, you're on easy.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4053858#Comment_4053858
I think the real problem here is all you play is solo like most players. You very strongly come across as someone who barely ever if at all play 4 man in a competitive nature. Its very hinting that you haven't played killer at a higher level as well once you give all your post a nice read.
Hinting? I straight up stated that I think I am an OK killer at best (but yes I do play killer, I even posted my trapper stats from chaos shuffle in a different thread) and that when I do swf its with casuals, but I am not blind to these other ways of playing even at "higher levels." Most players do in fact play both roles unless they have a good reason not to (i.e. medical reasons), doing otherwise would be a detriment to their ability to be good at the other role.
Those "top killers" you suggested I watch, I already do. The thing I take away every time is how many of them complain in matches that they win. You are just parroting their complaints without looking at their actual performance. These players will spend their entire stream playing killer and they might lose once, all while complaining about gen speeds or heal speeds or literally anything a survivor can do, while winning all of their matches. They appear to want to stomp their matches even harder, not have competitive matches. They only lose more frequently when they place a ridiculous challenge on themself.
I've watched matches from survivor winstreak squads too and comp matches in general, they play better than me but its much more their chase ability and ability to protect each other that stands out to me as what they are truly able to do better than me. They are more gen efficient than me but it is easily the thing I am closest to them on. The winstreak squads going into public matches you see the same thing as you do from "top killers," they stomp all their matches.
Your biggest mistake is thinking that public matches can be regularly competitive in the first place. If you want a competitive environment you have to go into the comp scene, matchmaking doesn't give you a choice. Yesterday, I got a match against a Ghoul who's profile claimed they were top 5 ghoul (no idea what the two of you are basing that off of, top 500 :P) and I believe it based on the way they played. A few matches later I got a demogorgon that teleported once the entire match and couldn't hit their shred. You can play how you want but public matches are not regularly competitive matches, most are a pretty big stomp for one side or the other. Its one of the biggest reasons I only trust those kill rates/escape rates so far, how would they be different if matchmaking was fairer? Impossible to truly know without matchmaking changing and since I don't think its ever going to be fixed its a moot point.
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@Jayce913 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054005#Comment_4054005
I agree with most of what you said but remember hatches can be an escape with 0 gens done, its hard to tell what's going on though with just these numbers though.
I did say 3k or 4k and that was specifically because of hatch/door showdown.
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@Jay_Whyask said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4053995#Comment_4053995
Most games don't end in 4ks, BHVR has shown the kill ratios before, the percentages are in the fifties & sixties, meaning most games are two & three kills.
Also yes, a new killer coming out is going to skew any stats in that killers favor.
It's not an excuse, it's common sense.
At a minimum, 51% of all matches ended in a 3k or 4k between Sept 1, 2024 and Aug 31, 2025. The last stats we got included a section stating that all five gens got completed in 49% of all trials. No other outcome is possible if all gens didn't get completed.
I don't actually consider this a good statistic to do anything with though as there is zero nuance to that number but it does show that killers overall win more than they lose. Would love if they gave us real win rates stats for every killer and broken out in other ways but I doubt we will ever get those.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4053787#Comment_4053787
“lol, it literally is. What you are describing is efficiency, "multipliers" or not its still just efficiency.”
Calling it “efficiency” is not an argument. The question is wether coordination raises that efficiency enough to change outcomes. Saying “it’s all efficiency” just sidesteps the whole point.
“never said it wasn't different, just that the difference is much more minor than you think.”
If its different, then its a question of degree. My point is that the degree stops being “minor” once repair speed bonuses are in play, because coordination lets teams apply them more consistently with less downtime.
“matches are not long enough for these to add up in a meaningful way, they might matter in the odd matches but not many.”
Thats exactly backwards for DBD. Matches are decided by small time margins. If small differences didnt add up, there wouldnt be a consistent performance gap between coordinated four mans and solo teams at similar skill levels.
“If this were the case the best teams would run these perks, they don't, its not as significant as you think.”
This assumes my claim is “the advantage requires stacking gen perks.” It doesnt. Coordination amplifies any repair speed bonus that exists, whether its perks, items, add ons, or simply timing when to stack. They dont need full gen builds for coordination to increase the value of the bonuses they do run.
“it is though, its about how a group of solos can perform together without comms which is composed of those players operating not actually independently,”
Sure solos aren’t “independent,” but they still have incomplete information compared to coms. Thats the entire difference. A good solo squad can make educated guesses, but swfs dont guess. Thats why coordination changes how reliably bonuses get applied and how little time gets wasted.
“if you don't play solo queue. you have no experience in the area. You literally have no idea what you are talking about.”
Thats just a personal attack and it doesnt answer the argument. Wether I personally solo queue does not change the mechanism being discussed coms remove uncertainty, and removing uncertainty increases how consistently teams convert time into gen progress, especially when repair speed bonuses are involved.
Agree to disagree on the rest but you not playing solo queue isn't a personal attack. If you don't solo queue you are lacking skills a good solo will have and are therefore underestimating them and the entire baseline for your beliefs about gen speeds. You don't understand where comms would help them most.
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@top500spiderman said:
“if high MMR solo survivors are the baseline then what they can and cannot do without comms is the entire basis for the discussion and therefore how well they can play matters to this conversation.”
How well solos can play matters, but the comparison is not “can solos play efficiently.” The comparison is whether coordinated teams convert the same survivor time into more gen progress than solos do. That difference becomes much more visible once repair multipliers are involved, because coordinated teams can apply those multipliers with far less wasted time. (read)
“I have explained how I can do all of these things without comms. If high mmr solos are capable of this without comms then we must look elsewhere for our differences.”
A solo player being capable of playing efficiently does not mean the level of efficiency is identical. Coordination removes uncertainty entirely, which makes it easier to consistently apply repair multipliers at the right times and avoid overlap or downtime, so the same multipliers produce more total progress in coordinated teams than in solo play.
“Again, I don't waste much time figuring out where I should be, it helps but not much.”
Even small differences in assignment timing, rotations, and decision speed are exactly what determine how effectively repair multipliers are used across the match. The argument isnt that solos waste large amounts of time, but that coordinated teams waste less, which means those multipliers are active more consistently and therefore have a larger overall impact.
“If we find that there isn't actually that much of a difference between solo and four man for that thing then we need to throw that out as our reason for the difference. I really don't think these high mmr four mans are that much more gen efficient than high mmr solos that it explains a 40 → 48 jump.”
The difference does not come from base efficiency alone, it comes from how coordination amplifies the value of repair speed multipliers over the course of the match. When teams consistently apply those bonuses with minimal downtime, the cumulative effect is large enough to contribute to the escape rate gap.
“I really think you should play more solo queue survivor. You really don't seem to have a grasp on how these players play and how good they can be without comms.”
This isnt really a question of how well solos can perform individually. The discussion is about how coordination changes how effectively teams use the same mechanics — particularly repair-speed bonuses — compared to players operating independently.
How well solos can play matters, but the comparison is not “can solos play efficiently.”
Lol, it literally is. What you are describing is efficiency, "multipliers" or not its still just efficiency.
A solo player being capable of playing efficiently does not mean the level of efficiency is identical
Never said it wasn't different, just that the difference is much more minor than you think.
Even small differences in assignment timing, rotations, and decision speed are exactly what determine how effectively repair multipliers are used across the match.
Matches are not long enough for these to add up in a meaningful way, they might matter in the odd matches but not many.
The difference does not come from base efficiency alone, it comes from how coordination amplifies the value of repair speed multipliers over the course of the match.
If this were the case the best teams would run these perks, they don't, its not as significant as you think.
This has just been me re-iterating all the points I have made over this conversation. Its fine if you don't agree but:
This isnt really a question of how well solos can perform individually. The discussion is about how coordination changes how effectively teams use the same mechanics — particularly repair-speed bonuses — compared to players operating independently.
It is though, its about how a group of solos can perform together without comms which is composed of those players operating not actually independently (seriously have you never played a team game without comms before? the individuals are not as independent as you think at least not good ones), that is what we are comparing swf to, it matters. If you don't play solo queue, and since at no point have you retorted that you do solo that seems likely, you don't have any idea what this baseline actually look likes, you have no idea how efficient they can be, how coordinated they can be, and you have no idea where comms would help them the most. You have no experience in the area. You literally have no idea what you are talking about. If I never played killer and made claims about how killer was played you would rightfully take umbrage with it. You don't get to make claims about how solo survivors play when you don't play solo survivor.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4053395#Comment_4053395
Your asking what the baseline is and who swfs are more efficient then. The baseline is high MMR solo survivors. Thats the comparison bhvrs own data gives us with the 40% vs 48% escape rate.
That difference exists somewhere, and its not coming from thin air.
Youv spent this entire time explaining how comms remove uncertainty, improve coordination, help with decision making, and reduce wasted time, and then you turn around and say those things don’t add up enough to affect gen pace. Those are literally the exact things that affect how efficiently survivor time turns into gen progress.
You cant list all the ways coms remove inefficiency and then act like inefficiency never mattered in the first place.
When I say multipliers, im not talking about stacking full gen builds like you keep trying to drag this back to. I mean anything that increases how fast gens move beyond base speed. perks, toolboxes, addons, number of survivors on a gen. All of those get more value when players don’t waste time figuring out who should be where.
You keep trying to turn this into wether solos can play well, like that was ever the claim. It wasnt. The point is that solos, no matter how good, still operate with less information than swfs. That changes how efficiently time turns into progress whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
Your saying that difference is too small to matter. Im saying thats exactly where the difference in escape rates comes from.
At this point your arguing that removing inefficiency somehow doesn’t change efficiency, which is a pretty strange hill to die on.
If high MMR solo survivors are the baseline then what they can and cannot do without comms is the entire basis for the discussion and therefore how well they can play matters to this conversation. I am trying to explain what that baseline really is to you since it seems like you don't have a lot of solo queue experience. I can be gen efficient and make good decisions without comms, therefore others can as well and I don't even know with any certainty that I fall into this "high mmr" bracket that BHVR gives us no real information about.
That difference exists somewhere, and its not coming from thin air.
I agree with this statement, I never didn't.
Youv spent this entire time explaining how comms remove uncertainty, improve coordination, help with decision making, and reduce wasted time, and then you turn around and say those things don’t add up enough to affect gen pace. Those are literally the exact things that affect how efficiently survivor time turns into gen progress.
I have explained how I can do all of these things without comms. If high mmr solos are capable of this without comms then we must look elsewhere for our differences. That isn't to say it doesn't play any role, just that its role is incredibly minor compared to where comms can have a much more dramatic effect on the match. Once again, the players I find that get real help with gen efficiency specifically from comms are casual players, they do not fall into the high mmr solo camp.
When I say multipliers, im not talking about stacking full gen builds like you keep trying to drag this back to. I mean anything that increases how fast gens move beyond base speed. perks, toolboxes, addons, number of survivors on a gen. All of those get more value when players don’t waste time figuring out who should be where.
Again, I don't waste much time figuring out where I should be, it helps but not much. Running toolboxes means slower heals and heals that require two people, same for gen perks, you are trading out heal speed or chase time for gen speed, you are not treating these as the tradeoffs that they are. As I said before, go ahead and put a cap on max gen speed and it won't change anything because good swfs won't be hitting it and you will still complain about gen rushing.
You keep trying to turn this into wether solos can play well, like that was ever the claim. It wasnt. The point is that solos, no matter how good, still operate with less information than swfs. That changes how efficiently time turns into progress whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
But it is, the question we are ultimately discussing is WHY are four man high mmr swfs doing that amount better than solo. In order to figure that out we must establish how well high mmr solo players can play. If you try to claim that swf are doing it because of thing X, then we must look at how well high mmr solos are able to do thing X. If we find that there isn't actually that much of a difference between solo and four man for that thing then we need to throw that out as our reason for the difference. I really don't think these high mmr four mans are that much more gen efficient than high mmr solos that it explains a 40 → 48 jump.
I think this discussion is over, if you won't accept looking at how high mmr solos play we can't actually have any discussion. The last thoughts I will leave with are these:
Do you think that 40% escape rate for high mmr solos is only looking at matches where all four survivors are high mmr? I doubt it, its very likely just looking at just how often they died regardless of who they are playing with, just that they were solo queuing. Meaning that 40 isn't even our real baseline, we would need an escape rate of high mmr solos when the lobby consists solely of high mmr solos.
I really think you should play more solo queue survivor. You really don't seem to have a grasp on how these players play and how good they can be without comms. You get paired with bad players for sure but maybe even that will give you better insight into that 40%.