FerrousFacade
FerrousFacade
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4053190#Comment_4053190
Your saying their isnt enough time in a match for small inefficiencies to add up, but then you describe all the ways coms help with coordination, pressure, calling gens, saves, and general decision making. Those are the exact inefficiencies I’ve been talking about.
Your basically agreeing that coms remove uncertainty and wasted time, while also saying that removing that uncertainty does not change how much progress survivors get out of their time. That makes no sense.
This isnt about whether solos can play well. Its about wether coordination changes how much value survivors get from gen speed and multipliers. Your acknowledging that coms remove a lot of the friction in decision making, but then saying that friction never really mattered in the first place.
Really go back read what you said lol.
I never claimed they don't help. They just don't help enough to add up to your claims and they help much more in other parts of the game that don't interact directly with generators. They primarily help you waste more of the killers time in ways solo can't easily accomplish, not get gens done faster.
My explicit mention to calling gens is how that isn't necessary for decent players (yet you say I need to read lol) and I directly go over how I make decisions, good decisions, without comms. If I can do that then so can others, meaning we can shave additional time off these minor inefficiencies. The people that I mention being helped by them for gen efficiency are my more casual friends, you're on this site so I doubt you are a casual. If you can't make those decisions and can't be gen efficient without comms you should play solo more to develop better game sense on the survivor side. It will help you win more killer matches too.
If this isn't about whether solos can play well, then who are we comparing to? What baseline are these swfs above? Who are they more efficient than? Your points are useless without a point of comparison, that makes how well solos can play paramount to this conversation.
What do you even mean by multipliers at this point? Because a moment ago you were saying perks weren't a core part of your argument and now there they are back again, unless you are referring to some uber secret mechanic no one else knows about you are talking about perks again.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4053220#Comment_4053220
And in my example, I specifically pointed it out in a way that killers can't cherry pick lobbies, while addressing the fact that there are valid reasons to be able to adjust their loadout based on items present, which is why I don't understand the blanket implication. Many killers who utilize lobby information don't do so to cherry pick, while your suggestion is one that was presented in a way that would.
There are posts in this thread and earlier ones on the same subject that say it is to avoid cheaters.Because that's a valid reason, even if it is a necessary sacrifice. Its also why my suggestion specifically said they shouldn't, because its the only way to get parity through game limitation. Allowing survivors to see killer usernames is an easy way to predict things from what killer they're likely to play to their loadouts, which is less of an issue with survivors since it only really applies to perks and not whole powers. Its understandable why people would want to keep it or not, and their reasons don't necessarily have to do with shopping, so there is debate to be had there beyond accusations.
I run into high ping killers far more often than cheaters, where is my ability to avoid that?Which is why I agreed to it despite your previous assumption, and refined it specifically to avoid lobby shopping as you don't wish to have. People can agree on overall positions while having nuanced takes on the particulars, regardless of "side."
Personally I dont think the killer should be able to see items either, but I acknowledge that its a subjective point as the killer wasting a perk slot is far more impactful than a survivor wasting a perk slot.I already stated why it goes beyond that. Not only do items sometimes affect playstyles, they can become accessibility issues. Until BHVR includes something like an option to replace the blinding light with a subtractive filter for people with conditions like photophobia/photosensitivity/cataracts/etc, some people need lightborn to avoid actual physical pain from being blinded. And thats on top of the fact that perks like franklins do literally nothing if there is no item present, especially since they no longer work on killer mechanic specific items like vaccines. I honestly don't consider it particularly subjective in the current state of the game.
Allowing survivors to see killer usernames is an easy way to predict things from what killer they're likely to play to their loadouts, which is less of an issue with survivors since it only really applies to perks and not whole powers.
So much this. There are certain perks that have an outsized effect against certain killers, like iron will or even fog vials against spirit and vigil against any status effect killer. Players love showing off their p100 or other accomplishments on their profile and that shouldn't be forced to change. I would certainly take advantage of that knowledge.
Cheaters and ping are valid concerns but both are entirely on BHVR to fix, its not something the player should have to be worrying about in the first place. Anon mode would hide their profile regardless and its not like the game is going to start showing you The Blight in lobby if the killer uses anon. Just hiding everyone's name is both the best and likely the easiest to implement solution (matchmaking issues aside).
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@top500spiderman said:
This is starting to drift away from the actual point and into assumptions about how I play, which isnt really relevant to the discussion.
Im not saying solos cant make good decisions. Im saying coordination removes the small inefficiencies that solos still deal with, even when they are very good players. Thats the only point iv been making.
You keep describing how good solos can play efficiently, but that doesnt address the point that coordination changes how much progress survivors get out of their time. Thats what iv been talking about this whole time. This isnt about whether I can or cant play solo, or wether swfs exist. It’s about how coordination interacts with gen speed and multipliers in the game. If you want to keep it on that topic, I’m happy to. But the personal assumptions dont really move the discussion forward.
The average gen completion time for all five gens in a match where all five are completed (49% of all matches, which also establishes a minimum overall win rate for killers of 51% of matches, as a fun aside) is about 8 minutes. This time frame may or may not go down for "high mmr" matches, we can't know for sure because BHVR hasn't released that stat. That simply doesn't leave enough wiggle room for small inefficiencies to add up in a meaningful way. Even if we say they add up to 20 seconds I would bet you could find 20 seconds of inefficiency in how the killer played that match and I bet you could still find another 20 seconds where the swf team was playing inefficiently.
How we play colors how we see the game, I mostly solo queue so I see how bad it can be and how good it can be. I play killer, I'm not great at the role but maybe I'm OK, when I lose I can typically point to something I did wrong and I regularly still win when I feel like I played terribly and when gens feel like they are flying. I swf rarely and only with more casual players (the less casual players I know are on the other side of the world and no level of skill is saving you on 170 ping), so not a great indicator of true swf performance, but I do still see what comms helps me with most and it isn't gen efficiency or gen speeds or the usage of any multipliers. Its coordinating plays against the killer in chase or around saves and tunneling. Telling them where to pressure gens helps them but it wouldn't be as necessary with better players. Highly coordinated swfs call out three gens but those players already know the maps well enough to have a decent idea based on the map alone or where they can currently see gens. They often have a death spot but I have figured those out solo as well, its easy when you already have an idea where the gens are, its literally just as far away as possible.
@crogers271 Covers it better than me I think, there just isn't anything unique about using gen perks or standard gen efficiency in a swf that it could explain the discrepancy in escape rate and its really not a huge difference, certainly not as massive as you would think from the way people talk about four mans. You're not gaining any real additional advantages that you can't already get as a solo that plays well. It other perks and other areas of the game that truly benefit from comms.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4053061#Comment_4053061
Your saying good solos are already so gen efficient that coordination cannot noticeably improve how fast gens move. That makes zero sense to how the game actually plays.
Solo players no matter how good, still make decisions with incomplete information. They hesitate before rotating, double up without realizing it, path to the same objectives, or commit to the wrong play because they dont know what their teammates are doing. That is just the reality of not having coms.
swfs remove that entirely. They always know who is on what gen, when to split, when to stack, when to leave, and when to commit. That doesnt change the gen timer, but it absolutely changes how clean survivor time turns into gen progress across the match.
And thats exactly why gen speed multipliers become much stronger in swfs. Not because of perk stacking, but because coordination lets survivors fully capitalize on those multipliers in a way solos cant. If coordination truly did not have a significant impact on gen speeds, then gen multipliers would have the same effect in solo queue as they do in swfs, but they very clearly dont.
If good solos were not gen efficient they would lose much more than they already do, they are playing against killers who are also trying to be kill efficient, it comes with the territory. I think you have become so accustomed to playing with comms that you don't understand what good solo survivors are capable of. You are one of those people that have been carried by a swf and have become reliant on them for your own gen efficiency and decision making.
Hesitation will account for seconds at best, doubling up on a gen stops being such a problem once a few gens have popped (the start of the match is the easiest time to know what your team is doing). If the objective is a gen then, once again, it doesn't matter much if it isn't the start of the match and keeping loose track of your team while tracking where gens have popped dramatically reduces the chance you do this. For a hook, the HUD is really all you need to know who should go for it. I assume that someone else is going for the hook if there is at least one healthy person not on something else (and go for the hook if that person is me), if everyone is occupied and I think I am the closest (loose team tracking again) I go for it but will stop if someone else stops what they are doing. If someone gets off a gen to go for it while they see me already off a gen and healthy they have made an obviously bad decision a good player wouldn't make (and is an incredibly common thing I see when an obvious duo is in the match and want to save each other).
Swf removes uncertainty but that doesn't mean you can't still make good decisions without comms. I am not saying they don't have an effect but this is the area of the game they have the least effect on when we are talking about good players. Comms have a much more significant role in chase, saves, generally wasting the killers time, and in preventing a death than they do on gen speeds. Just because you can't do this doesn't mean others can't, solo queue can be a nightmare because of how often you are paired with survivors that are not good but some of my best matches have been solo queue matches. Good players are good players whether on comms or not. Honestly, I don't think your swf even exists, I think you lost a few matches as killer and are blaming it on "swfs" that "gen rush" based on what "top killers" have told you to think.
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@Terror_Misu said:
Whatever you two are arguing, I hope you continue. Night two at work and its just as wonderful.
Glad someone is being entertained but I must sleep now for I work in the morning (but can't sleep while crap is rattling in my brain and thus I must post and leave before I can see a response and I start thinking again)
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4053016#Comment_4053016
Your treating “gen speed potential” and “coordination” like their two different arguments, but their not. Coordination is how that gen speed potential actually gets realized in a match.
When I said gen speed potential is why swfs are strong, I was not talking about perk stacking or 24 second gens as the core point. That was just an example. The actual point is that coordination lets survivors get more value out of gen mechanics and multipliers than solos can.
So when I explain how coordination boosts the value of multipliers, im not changing my argument. Im explaining how gen speed potential happens in practice.
Thats why it sounds like were talking past each other. Your treating gen speed potential as perk stacking, and im talking about how coordination amplifies the value of gen mechanics themselves.
I'm not talking past you. I am refuting the idea that swf coordination has a significant impact on gen speeds. Obviously it has an impact but not 8% higher escape rate impact.
I hit the perk side because even if it's not your core argument you clearly think they are a part of this (even if you sometimes call them multipliers). I have stated why I don't think that's likely based on the need of many of these perks for grouping up on a gen, how grouping up like that is dangerous, how picking those perks leaves your build lacking in other areas, and by showing that the best swfs don't pick those perks.
I've hit the non-perk side by emphasizing how gen efficiency is paramount in this game and this goes doubly for solo queue players. Good solo queue players are already gen efficient, being in a swf would not dramatically improve their performance in this regard. I could see how someone could become reliant on comms for some of their own gen efficiency but I wouldn't consider such a player a high MMR solo player, only within their swf would I consider them high MMR (not that MMR is remotely that subtle).
If survivors are not gen efficient, chase time doesn't matter. If chases are fast, the speed at which someone gets tunneled out doesn't matter. Gen efficiency, reasonable chase time, prevent a tunnel out. These are the things required to win as a survivor and in that order. If you can't do the one before the next one doesn't matter. Gen efficiency is so fundamental that it cannot be improved much by swfing, good survivors are already too efficient to improve that much.
That 40% for high MMR solo also doesn't specify if that's matches with just high MMR players or just the overall escape rate of high MMR solo in any match regardless of other players skill (I would bet any match). If all four are high MMR and solo I bet many killers would mistake them for a swf. They wouldn't struggle with gen efficiency and everyone's chases would at least be decent. The thing they would struggle with most is preventing a tunnel out. You can try this yourself like I suggested, challenge your swf to a no comms night where you can't coordinate perks.
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This is the entirety of that post, not just your selections.
Gen speed potential is the core reason why SWFs are so good, They maximize there perks slots with consideration of their coms and coordination. Which means they dont need to run a all-out survival build because they have coms. They can get absolute PEAK value out of certain perks and strats, that a solo player could only dream of no mater how good he is.
Prove thyself isnt the problem, no singular gen perk in the game is the problem. The problem is how a swf can generate numerous strategies around their perks as a team. The most dangerous of perks that makes this so strong are gen perks because thats the objective. Coms itself is the ultimate defense to any killer in the game, especially with a team of experienced quality players.
The thing is Swfs will always be strong, and i feel like to place limitations on them through certain perks and such. Just seems silly because not all Swfs will play on the level of players in high mmr as the data has shown. but what we can do is cap multipliers for gen speeds, to limit how fast gens CAN fly.
So swfs cant abuse them with coms. In no circumstance should a gen get done by 2 people in 24 seconds. Thats absurd.
But now
Im not talking about stacking gens like that at all, so this doesnt really apply to what im saying.
This isnt about extreme perk stacking. Its about how coordination lets survivors get more value out of the same mechanics, including gen speed then solos can.
But still say your core argument is
Gen multipliers should be nerfed, because their abused by swfs.
You make specific mention to gen perks being "dangerous," that no single perk is the problem and quote a very low gen time. You can't get that low of a gen speed without stacking and unless you want to place your cap at a level below the current gen speed addition of just a single one of these perks you must be talking about stacking them, either solo or as a squad. Now you are turning around and saying that isn't what you are arguing. If swf are not actually stacking these things then they cannot be claimed to be "abusing" these perks (or of gen rushing) some of which, including ones you specifically mention, require multiple survivors working on the same gen or they do nothing. If they are not already doing this then your theoretical cap would do nothing.
I am not against adjusting these perks, as I said before, my claim has been that stacking these things or using them in a swf is not the cause of the discrepancy between solo and four mans and that they are not as strong as you are claiming. I don't think they are actually unbalanced because stacking them in such a fashion is a brittle unreliable strategy. Go ahead and put a cap on them, it won't change anything because this isn't how a good swf actually plays.
Gen speed potential is the core reason why SWFs are so good
My entire argument is that this is not the case. Gens are easy, by far the easiest part of the game, but if the survivors are not efficient on gens they lose. I do treat this as a yes no question because, while there are degrees to efficiency, once you get to the point of enough efficiency to potentially win there isn't actually a lot of wiggle room beyond that so long as you are actually playing against a competent killer that is also trying to play efficiently and at that point you will get a lot more value out of chase and anti-tunnel perks than you will gen perks. If we are not talking about a killer on the same skill level then this discussion is meaningless because they will lose anyway, gen perks or not (edit: actually the killer might still win because that is how this game is balanced, better make sure your gen efficient). Your entire argument goes back to gen perks and the capability of a swf to stack them for added gen efficiency and everything I have said is to point out how easy it is to be gen efficient in solo queue and why a swf would choose to not run those perks. The only way we could truly prove if one of us is actually correct would be for BHVR to release data about gen completion times and perk usage with delineation between the times and usage rates based on different group sizes and mmr ranges.
Gen efficiency is easy, with or without comms. Preventing a tunnel out is difficult even with comms but extremely difficult without.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052956#Comment_4052956
full context re-added because its kind of important… The last statement in that paragraph is quite obviously being applied to the tunnel out dynamics and nothing else"
I understand you were talking about tunnel efficiency their. I was pointing out that the same idea of efficiency also applies to gen progress.
I just cant see that being the case without a boat load of data we dont have access to
We dont need extra data for this, were talking about how coordination changes how time gets used in a match.
being gen efficient isn't just a requirement of being anything more than a mediocre survivor, it is the very first requirement
Gen efficient is not a yes or no thing. There are levels to it, and that difference is what I mean.
doubling or tripling up on gens to try and push that single one fast is just asking for the killer to push you off
Im not talking about stacking gens like that at all, so this doesnt really apply to what im saying.
I actually don't a lot of the time. Remember that I run bond almost religiously
Bond gives delayed information that you still have to interpret and act on. Coms gives immediate information with no guesswork. Those are not the same thing.
killers will regularly tunnel from the very start of the match. Those tunnel dynamics always matter
And thats why gen efficiency while all four survivors are alive matters so much, That part is what your downplaying
matches just aren't long enough time for slightly harder to add up in a meaningful way.
If small inefficiencies did not add up, their would be no noticeable difference between SWF and solo queue at high MMR, but there clearly is.
Your argument depends on the idea that small inefficiencies in solo play do not add up over the course of a match. Mine is that they do, and that is exactly why swfs feel noticeably different to face. You are treating gen efficiency like a yes or no requirement, while im talking about the difference between being efficient and being perfectly efficient. That difference is what changes how much progress comes from the same chase time.
At this point you are literally arguing against yourself. First it was if you run these perks and if your teammates runs these perks you get gens done fast and then you concede that you don't actually run full gen builds and now your not even touching gens together? Your not popping a gen as fast as you claim if you are not stacking on a gen together and if you don't use that strategy then your whole argument around it falls apart.
It doesnt matter how fast you personally get gens done if someone is running
Full circuit
Hyperfocus
Built To Last
Deja Vu
Toolbox
with prove thyself + toolbox…The generator gets done approximately 24-26 seconds realistically. That's INSANE.
This is literally you and this is literally where the conversation started. Both Full Circuit and Prove Thyself do nothing if you don't stack and the same applies to Soft Spoken. If you're not doing this then what you are doing falls largely in line with exactly what I am saying and those gen perks are no longer relevant to the discussion at which point you are not coordinating gen perks to get the gens done faster with your swf and at that point you are not doing anything that good solo queue players cannot accomplish with good game sense alone and you are not gen rushing. As I said, your whole argument falls apart.
This is just not true, most swfs in high ELO gen rush. Ask any competitive killer or just go back and watch their streams.
Just because you goof off in SWFs doesnt mean thats what they do, the 48% in high ELO proves that.
being able to do a gen in 24 seconds from just synching a few perks, again shouldn't be possible.
This is the specific thing I responded to. You are literally claiming a 24 second gen time which REQUIRES stacking on gens and heavily coordinating your perks. You cannot be gen rushing if you are not doing these things since you are largely pushing gens at base speed or giving something else up to get gens done a bit faster but not at that speed.
You're also just wrong about Bond. It gives you immediate information and if you don't see anyone that in and of itself is good information to have. Ya, it isn't the same as actual comms but that is entirely my point as well. Comms won't help a decent survivor get on a gen faster or be more efficient on that generator if your intent isn't to stack, it only helps you find each other faster or call out where the killer is. That doesn't help gen efficiency much but it interacts directly with tunneling dynamics.
Data provides evidence and unless we have actual evidence we are all just speculating. Comms usage is reflected in the data we have but not directly. Unless they give us a lot more data about gen completion time and break that out for group sizes and mmr we are both just speculating about whether or not they actually go faster in a high mmr four man in the first place. Most people don't even know whether or not they faced a swf, they are speculating that they did, often in a vain attempt to explain their loses and blame it on anything other than themself.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052723#Comment_4052723
But they don't convert the same chase time into more gen progress.
They do. Thats the whole point. The timer doesnt change, how efficiently that time gets used does.
We have to consider four solos that are all high MMR
Even high mmr solos still have to guess what their teammates are doing. swfs dont.
They won't struggle with generator efficiency or chase times. It makes gen efficiency slightly harder but they won't actually struggle there.
That "slightly harder" is exactly what adds up over a match. Thats the difference your brushing off.
I'm not even saying that absolutely none of the escape rate difference can be attributed to gens, just that the majority is much more likely attributable to the dynamics around getting someone out of the match.
Your downplaying the gen side of it when thats what makes those tunnel dynamics matter so much in the first place.
It practically requires comms in order to execute efficiently on the survivor side.
Exactly, and that efficiency is what turns normal chase time into a lot of progress.
I'm not even saying that absolutely none of the escape rate difference can be attributed to gens, just that the majority is much more likely attributable to the dynamics around getting someone out of the match. It practically requires comms in order to execute efficiently on the survivor side.
Exactly, and that efficiency is what turns normal chase time into a lot of progress.
Full context re-added because its kind of important. The last statement in that paragraph is quite obviously being applied to the tunnel out dynamics and nothing else, you should realize that is what I mean from the rest of the conversation we've been having. I have stayed out of the other conversation but this for sure feels like an intentional attempt to twist my words. I think we are at the agree to disagree point so here are my final thoughts.
Your looking at it wrong. Gen speed multipliers really benefit from coordination because survivors can stack efficiently, avoid wasted time, and turn the same chase time into more gen progress than youd get in a solo queue. Thats why its the bigger factor
I just can't see that being the case without a boat load of data we don't have access to. The thing we most agree on is that gen efficiency is important, and we also appear to agree that this efficiency is more important than chases but that is exactly why I think your strategy isn't as effective as you make out. Being gen efficient isn't just a requirement of being anything more than a mediocre survivor, it is the very first requirement. It is safe to assume a high mmr survivor will be gen efficient even when solo queuing for this reason.
Doubling or tripling up on gens to try and push that single one fast is just asking for the killer to push you off and waste all the time and resources you put into it and then the killer has eyes on multiple survivors. I would much rather have teammates that push three different gens and get progress on all three than have all three group on one gen to try and pop that single one. Maybe if we are pushing a three gen and a gen is close but even in a three gen its usually better to push multiple to split the killers attention. Someone is going to get pushed off, if everyone is on that one then its everyone putting the killer into a hugely advantageous position. Its a bad brittle strategy.
Even high mmr solos still have to guess what their teammates are doing. swfs dont.
I actually don't a lot of the time. Remember that I run bond almost religiously. I might not know their exact location but I last saw their aura running off in a direction and the HUD shows that they are on a gen or on a totem or in chase. This information becomes outdated but I still have some idea, its survivor game sense. If you've only ever swf'd or don't solo queue often I doubt you have ever needed to develop this and that lack of solo experience could also explain why you think your strategy is so much more effective than I do. The problem is pinpointing their exact location but that only really matters if you need something that requires direct contact. Bond still lets me find this but it takes a bit of extra time. If my goal is to double a gen with them close to the end we are talking a couple extra seconds of gen time and then typically only if its an indoor map. Those seconds matter a lot more if I am trying to go for a body block or a heal while the killer is searching for their tunnel out.
That "slightly harder" is exactly what adds up over a match. Thats the difference your brushing off.
Matches just aren't long enough time for slightly harder to add up in a meaningful way. Particularly not for a set of players that know every map inside and out.
Your downplaying the gen side of it when thats what makes those tunnel dynamics matter so much in the first place.
Killers will regularly tunnel from the very start of the match. Those tunnel dynamics always matter. Its a big part of why gen efficiency has become so necessary for survivors. We can't not be gen efficient, you just lose.
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@Hannacia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052608#Comment_4052608
Hmm. Sure ghoul is a strong killer and relatively easy to play, but i wouldnt say new ghoul can easily win especially if they go against survivors with more game knowledge.
The problem in this game is bad tutorial for new players which is why i would love there to be gamemode for new players to play together to a certain amount of hours, and obviously the hidden pest which is MMR. Behaviour did say they would look into fixing the matchmaking so hopefully that will solve some of the issues with new players going against veterans.
2v8 is good place for new survivors to learn i'd say. Killers kinda get rolled in that mode if you have no idea what you are doing unless your opponents are as new as you are. This is why i don't personally enjoy 2v8 anymore. Lack of proper matchmaking is making it uncomfy. I escaped most of my matches with relative ease, or i died watching people not save anyone from cages and no gens were being done.
Thing im trying to say is this game has given survivors a lot lately. Survivors have tools to fight against camping and tunneling more than they had years before. Survivors have gen perks to make gens fly and with the pallet changes most maps have pretty good loops to use against the killers. Still what i see everyday is people giving up on their first hook because they got found first. People not liking the killer they go against and giving up, people literally running to the killers face after being unhooked just to get value out of DS and dying 10 seconds after.
There are strong killers, but giving me a ghoul as an example everytime is not gonna work since i actually like going against them. Looping one after you figure them out isn't as bad as looping good nurse or blight. Even hillbilly to me is more dangerous than ghoul.
I agree that all the killers you mention are scarier than ghoul in the hands of a good player but they require much more from that player in the first place. I think nurse is a bit more of a stretch on that then the others but predicting does require knowledge of how survivors run and if you go aura read you are at least trading out regression. I'm ok with this gap to an extent because I do want the game to be killer sided, I just believe it already is outside of literal comp survivor squads. If matchmaking does ever get fixed I will happily reevaluate that stance based on whatever new stats get produced.
I don't consider myself a great killer but do not get rolled in 2v8, I don't believe it's as survivor sided as people claim but I also didn't go in as a brand new killer so can accept that their experience would be different than mine. I have seen some claims that the mode has MMR but don't know that for certain or if it works well (unlikely lol).
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@Aeltere said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052617#Comment_4052617
"Play perfectly" is such an insane reach. There are survivor winstreaks nearing a thousand. Guess that means survivor side needs to be gutted too, huh? Like, I'm sorry, but we clearly cannot have an honest conversation here. Bye.
The longest survivor win streak ended at 202, slightly less than the longest trapper win streak. Not even close to 1000. Get your facts straight.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052613#Comment_4052613
I have absolutely moved gens that quickly in solo queue
im not saying solos cant do gens quickly. Im saying swfs turn the same chase time into more consistent gen progress because no one wastes time or overlaps inefficiently.
the primary decider of how quickly the gens pop is always how long the chases are lasting
Chase time matters, but how efficiently that time gets used is what im talking about. Thats where comms make a difference.
being in a swf does not actually make the gens shorter.
It doesnt change the gen timer, it changes how efficiently survivors use their time while its running.
If three survivors are working gens no one is protecting the tunnel out.
Right, and swfs can swap roles instantly without hesitation because they know who needs to move and when.
you don't actually need coordination to manage this, you just need every survivor to have a good understanding of the map layout
Understanding the map helps, but coms remove the guesswork about who should be where and when
these players should be able to handle this without comms, I would honestly call not being able to do that without comms a skill issue
They can do it without coms, just not with the same consistency or efficiency that coms provide.
Again, im not arguing that chase or skill dont matter…. I’m saying SWFs convert the same chase time into more gen progress because of coordination, and thats the part you’re overlooking.
But they don't convert the same chase time into more gen progress. They only do if you are no longer talking about high MMR survivors and that isn't a fair comparison to a high MMR four man. We have to consider four solos that are all high MMR.
Take the best survivors, remove their comms, and place them against an equally skilled killer. They won't struggle with generator efficiency or chase times. It makes gen efficiency slightly harder but they won't actually struggle there. It's the rest that becomes significantly harder and that's what they will struggle with. (I would watch a dbdleague night of this).
I'm not even saying that absolutely none of the escape rate difference can be attributed to gens, just that the majority is much more likely attributable to the dynamics around getting someone out of the match. It practically requires comms in order to execute efficiently on the survivor side.
I again suggest the next time you are swfing to challenge yourself in some way. Try running those win streak builds instead and I bet your escape rate doesn't end up changing much. Then try the builds you normally do but without comms and see what actually becomes harder.
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@Aeltere said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052590#Comment_4052590
Chases can absolutely go over a minute, especially once you get to bring in second chance and anti-tunnel perks except, once again, against the exceptional killers who should not be included in a conversation about general balance. Those individual killers need to be addressed, but implementing systems around what Blight and Nurse can do is the reason that you only see Blight and Nurse in 80% of your games - we've made lower tier kills unviable out of low mmr.
To tunnel requires a level of camping. You have to be close enough to the unhook to pick up the chase on the survivor you want, and, for most of the killers on the roster, that means half of the map if not more is free for the survivors to do with what they please. If they decide to take a chase to the other side of the map? Great, you can now unhook and their tunneling strat is gone.
Going in towards the end of the 70 second timer is the right call if you know they want to tunnel. They grab the trade? Welp, they can't tunnel anymore because the other survivor is getting way too much distance by the time the new one is put on the hook (outside of S+ killers who should be individually addressed) If the hook is inside the three gen then, yes, you need to bait a chase and then unhook with someone else. Not hard when you can just do a gen in their face until they commit or hit the kick limit within like two minutes lmao.
Once again, slugging only works if you've got overly altruistic survivors or are not playing the map intelligently. If they camp the downed survivor, it's even worse for them than tunneling on hook since it's going to take four entire minutes for a bleed out. If they down two, you can crawl away from each other to a point that it's impossible to cover both. It all comes down to knowing where the killer is, what they're trying to do, and knowing what the proper play against that is.
Trapper has a 200 game winstreak, if you are trying to claim that onepumpwillie isn't high mmr you are out of your mind. Every killer can perform, you will absolutely have to put more into the weaker killers but that doesn't make them unviable, just unviable for some, its a skill issue. Its ok that its a skill issue but that's still what it is.
Chases can absolutely go over one minute but when we are talking about the overall game balance it makes sense to look at the average and the average chase time over the course of an entire match is one minute and barely goes up for high mmr. If the killer is bad obviously it will be higher but then nothing we are talking about matters.
You do not need to camp in order to tunnel, claiming otherwise ignores all of the killers with teleports and high mobility which isn't just the strongest killers. You are dramatically misrepresenting the amount of distance slugging the unhooker gives the tunnel out target, even hooking doesn't give them that much distance certainly not enough to make the tunnel out any less worth it and you are again ignoring the weaker killers that still have teleports or mobility.
I will gladly coordinate baiting the chase while someone else unhooks to my solo queue teammates, don't see any problems with that. Taking two minutes to hit the regression limit means the survivor dies on hook if no one grabs them and then you have to manage a three gen with three survivors up.
I really don't think you have ever faced a slug only blight or billy that knows their power in and out. These players do not need to camp slugs, they just continue downing people. If you leave them on the ground gens will not get completed fast enough to win you will just lose.
All of your scenarios require every survivor to play perfectly, its unreasonable when the killer does not need to play perfectly to accomplish this on their end.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052565#Comment_4052565
You’re framing this like gens only move fast if someone is looping out of their mind. My point is that in coordinated SWFs, gens move very fast even off completely normal chases because of how gen multipliers and comms stack efficiency. Thats not a chase skill issue or a tunneling issue, its how coordination interacts with the gen mechanics.
you can only slam gens if someone on your team is holding the killer’s attention
Im not saying chase doesnt matter. Im saying in swfs, normal chases translate into a lot more gen progress because of coordination.
you could categorize both sides doing this under an umbrella of chase skills
Their both in chase, but survivors get to multiply the value of that time through coordination. Killers dont get an equivalent multiplier from it
A well coordinated team can do a better job of protecting such a weak link
Right, and while their doing that, three coordinated survivors are working gens extremely efficiently. Thats the part Im pointing at
gen efficiency is basically table stakes for survivors
In solo queue maybe. In coordinated swfs, gen efficiency scales way beyond ‘table stakes’ because of comms, stacking, and coordination.
My point isnt that chase, tunneling, or perks dont matter. Its that in coordinated swfs, gen speed multipliers and comms make the value of any time bought in chase much higher than it is in solo q. That interaction is what makes gen speeds feel too fast, not just skill mismatches or tunneling dynamics.
And you're framing it like gens can only move that fast in a coordinated SWF. I have absolutely moved gens that quickly in solo queue and have had full solo queue squads accused of being a SWF and of gen rushing. When I say table stakes I mean that if I don't see survivors split up and start on three or four gens relatively quickly after the start of the match I will immediately become concerned about the quality of my teammates. I won't double up on gens that early unless its one we obviously need to get out of the way. If they're doubling a gen in the corner of the map I stop expecting to escape (not that I give up).
The primary decider of how quickly the gens pop is always how long the chases are lasting with the first being the most important. If the first chase lasts two minutes it is incredibly likely that three gens will pop. That first chase is ridiculously important (too important honestly) but if the next chase lasts even half as long there is a chance the last gens pop as well. You don't actually need coordination to manage this, you just need every survivor to have a good understanding of the map layout and where generators are likely to spawn. If we are going to talk high mmr four man then the fair comparison must be to high mmr solo so even in the non-swf team we should assume a decent level of skill and understanding of the game. These players should be able to handle this without comms, I would honestly call not being able to do that without comms a skill issue. Obviously those chase times are a perfect scenario but in a mismatch situation this is what happens.
The game is balanced around there being one killer and four survivors, saying that the survivors in a swf multiply the value of a chase is just silly. There are still just four survivors total and if they understand the maps they will be on a gen regardless. Being in a swf does not actually make the gens shorter.
If three survivors are working gens no one is protecting the tunnel out. You have gotten the scenario mixed up. If you are leaving them on hook, you won't have three survivors on gens because at least one is going to be in chase unless we are assuming an incompetent killer and that would just be unfair to a properly balanced match.
Knowing exactly where the tunnel out target is and if the killer is nearby the hook and if the unhook is safe are all things you actually get from communication and that require communication (baring perks). It is a big part of why I never take bond off in solo queue, knowing where my teammates are is regularly paramount to success. It is entirely skill mismatches and tunneling dynamics that make solo queue high mmr have a 40% escape rate and four man high mmr have a 48% escape rate because a decent killer will still push you off those gens before you can complete them, down you quickly, and get those gens regressing.
I expect gen efficiency from my teammates, I don't expect them to know exactly where I am or be able to tell me that we need to stop a heal because the killer is on their way or be able to effectively setup a spot to body block the killer. These are the things that comms actually help with.
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@Hannacia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052596#Comment_4052596
DId i once meantion its easy to learn all that? No i didnt. You won't learn this game in a day or even 2. You need to put hours in. Do you think i escaped every single match when i was new? Do you think i wasnt hiding in corners and running into walls when i was new?
I am ALL for behaviour giving new players a gamemode that puts them with other new players and killers. This way they arent put against 5000 hour killers and killers arent put against 5000 hour survivors. It would be awesome if there was a mode where lets say under 100 hour players could play together and learn. Sadly this isnt the case, so MMR might screw you over badly in this game.
This game takes time to learn, im still learning new stuff.
If you won't learn the game quickly then we can throw out this notion. Which is the one I had issue with.
This game is starting to cater more and more to unexperienced and new survivors which shouldnt be the case
Because at that point those players are neither new or unexperienced.
Meanwhile someone new can pick up Ghoul and beat players better and more experienced than them, that is being catered to. I think most of the complaints we see from killers has much more to do with how far you can get with many of them without really learning how the game works and by going for easy tunnel outs while playing only the stronger killers. They don't hit the wall as immediately as survivors do.
For the record I started playing almost two years ago and have racked up a silly amount of hours in that time and done all of the things you suggest already and yes I have played both sides. Nor did I complain in my own post. Killer is much more forgiving for me, even now and even if I find playing that side more stressful. The mode you describe is 2v8 but many are opposed to it being a full time thing. I think it makes an excellent learning space for both sides.
My main point on Krasue is that if she hadn't been buffed going from the PTB to the live version she might have been changed in different and possibly less impactful ways or hopefully at least in ways that didn't drop her usage to nothing. The buffs she received were an overreaction caused by people calling her weak, not survivor complaints.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052581#Comment_4052581
I agree that the top tier can get away with more and for him and the other top tiers slugging can be an incredibly efficient way to play. The players I have faced that do this go for a full four man slug and only start hooking once every member of the team is down. They tend to know every in and out of their killer and for them it is incredibly effective.
No one suggested the killer was camping, only that they were tunneling. Most will go after someone else and potentially get another down and only return once the unhook happens. Once again I would agree that the top tiers do this better and usually have mobility to get back to the hook faster. The problem with players saying you have 70 second hook timers (or 140 if you intend to just let them sit there and intentionally let them second stage, not a good strategy in my opinion) is they ignore all nuance to that timer. Obviously, you shouldn't unhook right away but you also can't actually wait until close to the end of the timer. If you do, you risk the killer returning to secure a second stage or to get a trade or just down the unhooker and continue after the unhooked survivor. Its free pressure for the killer or a free second stage. If the hook is inside the worst three gen on the map you can't even leave them in the first place.
Chases do not last a full minute unless the killer is worse than the survivor, average chase time for an individual survivor across the entire match is one minute and this only goes up by six seconds in high mmr. This is only tracking the actual chase mechanic but even in comp you don't see it actually drop for very long and it tends to linger for a bit if the killer drops chase. I would like more stats on this (not that the game in its current state could provide them sadly) but we can safely say that an individual chase is likely to last a full minute.
Edit: unlikely to last a full minute, site is throwing an error when I try to edit
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@Hannacia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052400#Comment_4052400
I play survivor everyday, but i actually try to learn counterplay to every killer and i don't complain everytime i get tunneled or slugged, which btw doesn't happen in every game like survivors tend to say.
So no im not out of touch. I have almost 5000 hours in this game, most of it on survivor. I also play Solo Q or with another friend, which means we still have 2 soloQ teammembers. What i notice is the biggest issue is the OTHER teammembers.
Instead of complaining about every single little thing, people should try to learn counterplays, maybe watch streamers with thousands and thousands of hours how they play and loop tiles. This game isn't casual anymore. Maybe behaviour needs to give casual people their own gamemode.
You can downvote me all you want, but maybe its time to accept the fact that the biggest issue in this game might just be the other survivors. Game screws you by putting you with survivors that might be hiding in corners, blessing totems, breaking bones and doing everything else than gens. Looping lasts for 10 seconds and then they DC.
About Krasue i said she did have issues. She was oppressive, but she didnt have to be gutted. Right now she feels awful to play. I don't think i've seen one in weeks if im honest.
- edited the Krasue part in. forgot about it.
You have 5000 hours, claiming you are not out of touch with the new survivor experience just proves how out of touch you are.
I have learned all of this and am well aware that I can still improve but claims that its easy being a new survivor are just flat out wrong. We are literally talking about being new and learning. Ya they need to learn the counterplay for 42 different killers, all while learning where gens typically spawn, map layouts, tile layouts, how to run those tiles, general practice with survivor movement. And they need to do all of this while losing over and over and over again. Killer at that level is much more forgiving. You are completely and totally out of touch.
Edit: the average killer is as bad as the average survivor, the game is just more forgiving for them. I agree that the average survivor is bad but so is the average killer.
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@Aeltere said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052558#Comment_4052558
The top tier of killers can get away with anything. Blight can literally play any way he wants and still be effective; that does not mean that slugging itself is an effective way to play. When a killer is hard tunneling, you have 140 seconds of hook time to play with where they are, effectively, accomplishing nothing. Over two minutes where two survivors can work gens uninterrupted and one survivor just has to run in while healthy, let the tunneled survivor off the hook, and then run back to a gen. If the tunneled survivor is buying close to a minute for each chase? That's literally the game. That's enough time to complete five gens right there.
I agree that the top tier can get away with more and for him and the other top tiers slugging can be an incredibly efficient way to play. The players I have faced that do this go for a full four man slug and only start hooking once every member of the team is down. They tend to know every in and out of their killer and for them it is incredibly effective.
No one suggested the killer was camping, only that they were tunneling. Most will go after someone else and potentially get another down and only return once the unhook happens. Once again I would agree that the top tiers do this better and usually have mobility to get back to the hook faster. The problem with players saying you have 70 second hook timers (or 140 if you intend to just let them sit there and intentionally let them second stage, not a good strategy in my opinion) is they ignore all nuance to that timer. Obviously, you shouldn't unhook right away but you also can't actually wait until close to the end of the timer. If you do, you risk the killer returning to secure a second stage or to get a trade or just down the unhooker and continue after the unhooked survivor. Its free pressure for the killer or a free second stage. If the hook is inside the worst three gen on the map you can't even leave them in the first place.
Chases do not last a full minute unless the killer is worse than the survivor, average chase time for an individual survivor across the entire match is one minute and this only goes up by six seconds in high mmr. This is only tracking the actual chase mechanic but even in comp you don't see it actually drop for very long and it tends to linger for a bit if the killer drops chase. I would like more stats on this (not that the game in its current state could provide them sadly) but we can safely say that an individual chase is unlikely to last a full minute.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052287#Comment_4052287
Survivors win by slamming gens and coordinating. Killers win by applying pressure. That’s not the same skill, so saying one side is just ‘better’ doesn’t really make sense.
Also your saying killers need a weak link to tunnel out to win, and that coordinated groups don’t have one. That sounds less like a matchmaking issue and more like coordination interacting very strongly with gen speed.
If a killer needs a weak link to remove to win, that points to a design interaction, not just a skill gap.
You can only slam gens if someone on your team is holding the killers attention, that takes skill or they go down quickly and you get to say hello to whatever regression the killer brought. You could categorize both sides doing this under an umbrella of chase skills, they are not doing the same exact things but they are engaging in the same aspect of the game. If we wanted to measure this an easy way to so would be to capture an average for each killer and compare each chase to that average. If above the survivor has played better, if below the killer has played better.
Macro skills are largely the same for both sides, knowing where on the map needs their pressure and when. Those macro skills are more abstract and receive less attention than more mechanical skills but I think everyone ultimately still knows about them and would agree that they are important.
The killer doesn't need a weak link to win but you would likely agree that identifying a weak link and tunneling them out will typically result in victory, so long as they are weak enough that you actually get the tunnel out quick enough. Misidentifying this tunnel out will easily lead to defeat so I'm not calling it a surefire thing for the killer either. This doesn't have to be right off the bat, you can truly start looking to get someone out at 2 or 3 gens left and so long as you get it fast enough you likely win.
A well coordinated team can do a better job of protecting such a weak link or just a player on death hook and in a high mmr four man it is far less likely that such a link is truly weak enough to tunnel out effectively all the time. Obviously, it depends highly on what killer is being played, the skill of the specific killer, skill of the "weak link" survivor, and the skill of the rest of the survivor team but again we are talking about high mmr four mans so we can assume a decent level of skill from every member.
In a match without such a team, especially one with less or no comms between the survivors, a weak link is much more likely to be present, available for tunneling, and the survivor team will have a much harder time of protecting them. Even when all players are skilled it is still harder to hide and protect a survivor you cannot communicate with. This is where we get into the fact that avoiding/preventing a tunnel out takes much more skill and coordination from the survivor being tunneled and their team than is required to get a tunnel out as killer, the game is designed around the survivors eventually going down after all. If the game had in game comms and reasonable matchmaking (I doubt either will ever happen) we could chalk this up to skill issue alone but that isn't reality and its the one I face nearly every time I queue up for match.
Gen efficiency is basically table stakes for survivors, you are required to do so if you want to escape. Gen perks do not actually make you that much more gen efficient and the moment you lose a teammate all gen efficiency goes out the window. You better hope the match is already close to over. The only way out at that point is if every single remaining survivor is significantly better than the killer. I have had this happen in solo queue so it isn't impossible but it is incredibly rare.
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@Aeltere said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052288#Comment_4052288
Except this entire thread is talking about slugging and tunneling where the killer would not be getting lots of hooks . . .
You have never been in a match where the first kill was managed by tunneling and the killer still had three tokens of pain res left? Tunneling literally requires getting hooks, at least three of them in fact and will then proceed to still hook the rest of the match and benefit from all the regression they have left.
Slugging is often enough pressure in and of itself to slow down gens, when you go against a slug only hillbilly or a slug only blight you will come to understand that quickly. It doesn't work on every killer but the top tier can get away with it fairly easily if the killer player is competent.
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@Hannacia said:
This is sadly the case with every killer nowdays. See what happened with Krasue. I'm not saying she didnt have issues when she was released but now she's clunky and i personally don't enjoy playing her at all. Her mushrooms are useless too, the whole infection part feels useless now.
This game is starting to cater more and more to unexperienced and new survivors which shouldnt be the case. People with thousands of hours in this game like me actually do enjoy the matches when theres some danger and real close endgame matches are my personal favorite where you have to fight to survive and try to help your teammates.
This is the reason i don't enjoy 2v8 anymore. It's too easy as a survivor and i get bored if i escape 80% of my matches.
You are completely out of touch with the new survivor experience if you think the game is catering to them. Killers can easily play a few hundred hours and 4k players much more experienced than them with the stronger killers in the game. That's catering to new killers not new survivors. Its basically impossible to get new players into the game by having them play survivor.
Remember that Krasue was buffed ptb to live, maybe if that hadn't happened she wouldn't have ended up in her current state. The fault lies with those calling her weak on the PTB.
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What perks you run won't matter unless you can hit your shots. If its a problem of the mechanics to place them you likely just need to practice (I have heard its more difficult on controller like basically every ranged killer). The main thing you are trying to do is predict how the survivor will run if you don't have LOS on them. Placing the attack directly under the survivor is a guaranteed hit.
If you want more assistance with landing the shots I would suggest aura reading perks, they won't get you as far as prediction will since your build becomes focused on them instead of perks that slow the game but the goal with them is to learn those prediction skills so you can eventually run something else. Kinda like windows on survivor, great for learning but bad if you become reliant on it.
Hens ran a full hex build because survivors are basically forced to interact with the clocks which forces them off gens and then ruin eats gen progress. This is only going to work if you are downing people with the power though, otherwise they will still chew through gens.
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Hens has already gone on a 124 game win streak. Video on one of their YouTube channels. Not sure if they explain anything but watching them might help.
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@Aeltere said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052228#Comment_4052228
Except every single gen regression perk requires hooks and downs. First hooks for the Artist's, which, especially pain res, are the most meta. If a killer is tunneling and you aren't feeding them insta-unhooks, they will get zero value from these perks while gens are popping left and right.
If a killer isn't getting downs then they are not going to win, regardless of which perks they brought. It's like saying survivors that hide edge map and don't get on gens won't win (they could escape via hatch but that's not a win by most people's standards). It's a baseline requirement to win when playing as those roles.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052127#Comment_4052127
It seems your downplaying just how fast 24-27 seconds is. You do know that a survivor going to 2nd hook stage takes 60 seconds right? 24 seconds is extremely fast in terms of gen speeds. Like super fast. Unless you know exactly where they are at that point they start it. Your not gonna stop them unless they were late to the party.
And I think you are dramatically exaggerating somewhere. The strategy you propose is simply too brittle to work against a skilled killer. My suggestion would be to try those win streak builds the next time you swf and see if your win rate changes. The thing that I think you are most likely down playing is probably the skill level of your swf (if they actually exist and if you are actually winning with them as often as you claim).
There is a much simpler answer to the higher escape rate amongst the high MMR four man group. Matchmaking sucks and when it creates a mismatch, to the killer disadvantage in this case, there isn't a weak link to tunnel out and even if there is one slightly weaker player the others know exactly what to do and when. They will very likely still get at least the three out but it's because they are better than the killer, this is already a match the survivors should win.
Just like for killers, the better the survivors the more likely you are to get one of these mismatched matches. It's entirely the fault of the soft cap which based on the data we have isn't the same as the high MMR BHVR uses in their stats.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052119#Comment_4052119
You can still run Anti tunnel perks and gen rush. It only takes 3 perks to drop a gen speed from 47 seconds to 24 seconds possibly even lower, and that's only 2 people, and the 3rd perk is prove. So it only has to be 1 person with the perk so its only 2.
If you want to do this all game all you need is built to last as your 3rd and every gen that gets doubled gets done in 24 seconds or lower. In what world could any mid - low teir killer ever compete with this?
This is clearly unbalanced and shouldn't be possible in any circumstance, But these are the type of cheeses that Swfs use as crutches. It needs to be addressed.
Theres nothing wrong with actual really good players, extending chases against really strong killers to win, but giving survivors a option to hang just by abusing multipliers shouldn't be a thing.
If the survivors are grouping up like this then they are easy to force off the gen together which gives the killer extra pressure and once the gen is regressing all the time and item usage you put into it starts going to waste. All they need is proper game sense which is a skill a killer should have and then you are just handing multiple survivors to the killer, which in your scenario are all not great chasers.
If you are trying to do this right off the start of a match and the first gen does pop then its likely that you have completed one in a far flung corner of the map. If you told me the survivors would only have to complete four of six gens but the map was going to be smaller with fewer pallets/windows and the survivors were going to start with at least partially depleted toolboxes I would probably take that offer. It just becomes a part of the map I never have to visit or concern myself with. That makes it a somewhat safe place for the survivors to run to but they can't stay there forever and so long as the survivors aren't better than me I should be able to down them before they get there or it will simply be too far for them to get there. You have just done many low tier killers a favor. Many of them are at their strongest holding a smaller number of gens and you just helped them with that.
Maybe you can do 24 seconds for the first gen but this doesn't last all match unless the killer is worse than you, at which point they lose because they are worse than you not because of the perks. You can at most double up on gens when someone is on hook and someone is in chase and at that point you are letting the person hang and risking that person going second or trading/downed before trade while simultaneously being less efficient on generators. It doesn't add up, maybe if you are mostly going against killers worse than you but why should you lose then.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052075#Comment_4052075
Quick question, if your playing survivor with friends and all of you understand the game. All of you are good at holding chase, but not great at it, and you know the only killers who can down you fairly quickly are high teir killers. Knowing this weakness what are you and your team most likely going to focus more on.
A. Gen Speeds
B. Long chases
Anti-tunneling and haste perks are not forgiving perks against most high teir killers, those perks demand skill. Which is why many people who play survivor here feels like some of them aren't enough. There really strong if you have the skills to back it
Gen rushing is much more easier then that. You can coronadite and use coms in a way to reduce chase time or avoid it all together. Yea this is fine but the perks associated with it is UNABALNCED.
Its the number #1 prime reason why players think ghoul is OP and needs a nerf when he has plenty counterplay because most players dont have that ability to hold chase against high teir killers. Even good players.
So yes as it should be Long chases is much better then gen rushing, but whos doing long chases against these high teir killers in high ELO lobbies? the 0.01% is.
Let's assume you are correct for a moment, what would the result be?
- Gen speed perks are removed/nerfed
- Kill rates go up
- All killers are nerfed in some way because the kill rate has gone up
If your suggestion is correct and its as prevalent as you seem to think then gens are too slow for BHVR's intended balance without the existence of these perks.
As for your question, I would still focus on going for long chases. Stealth is not reliable, it can work and should be used some of the time but you cannot consistently avoid the killer forever, certainly not a decent one. If the team cannot sit on gens because the teams chases are not long enough then they will not be able to make use of their gen speed perks, some of which require multiple people sitting on the same generator. Someone will need to go get hooks, you will need to heal, and that gives the killer plenty of additional opportunities to find survivors to chase. Gens make noise in the first place, the killer knows someone is at least around. If their chases are not great they should still be running DS or OTR or some anti-tunnel which eats into the gen perks and immediately makes the gen perk strategy less effective in the first place.
It might work on less skilled killers but it won't on more skilled players that keep their chases short. The number of times I've had a conversation like this where the skill level of the killer is neglected is way too high. You are describing decent players who should be able to win at least some of the time when going against decent players. Ya, matchmaking sucks but that is entirely BHVR's fault and until that changes the stats we have show that the majority of matches favor the killer even when going against a high mmr four man which makes up a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase.
Ghoul literally gets a free injury with deep wounds for just looking in a survivors general direction. It takes no skill to hit someone like that. You literally have to do half the work other killers have to, have a built in counter to most anti-tunnel, and you will be across the map on the next survivor in moments. The number of people that defend ghoul is the prime example of how easy many killers expect the game to be for them. No killer has done more damage to this game than ghoul has.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052096#Comment_4052096
Tunneling is only consistently exceptionally strong on S-tiers like The Nurse. Otherwise, like for Killers I regularly play such as Sadako, I'd argue that there's enough risk as it is since focusing on one Survivor can backfire due to both looping skills and teammates' repair proficiency, so much so that whom I'm tunneling is not even guaranteed to die(, nor should that be a guarantee.) If anything, an update that expands Killers' strategic options to make matches less repetitive and, thus, frustrating, should be tested, without any anti-anything.
Yet, when the PTB was live we were inundated by people saying that anti-tunnel would make low tier killers like Trapper and Sadako unplayable and that this is why the changes were unacceptable. I agree with your take on it being stronger on S-tiers but that's part of why I want it, nurse and blight need to be brought down and anti-tunnel is a great way to hurt the strongest killers more than the weakest. The rest of the systems needed changes but it was a good start.
The only way to expand their strategic options is to change what their current strongest strategy is. If you give killers something strong but leave tunneling as is all you will have done is make tunneling stronger. If you want slower gens/longer matches or regression buffed or some additional form of basekit regression it has to come with changes to tunneling or matches that involve tunneling will just become even more hopeless for survivors than they already often are.
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@top500spiderman said:
I win most of my games on killer and i win most my games on swf when i play with my buddies. This has nothing to do with me losing lol.
You keep using 0.01% of players as a example, let me ask you this. Killers that go on 1000+ win streaks, do you think they go against team eternal every game after there 500th win? No, they dont.
Same way those survivor teams dont go against a blight with a 1000 win streak every game.
These players are stomping your average sweaty player, there a top player in a pool of good players. Every once in a while these top players face off.
Top of the top players are in every game, there a very small percentage of players, there statistically almost invisible
The problem is, your average sweaty SWF and killer doesn't try to close the gap with skill, they close it with cheese.
If you win the majority of your matches then what's the problem? Clearly these things are not beating you, right? You are basically saying that you should be winning your matches even harder than you already are. I agree that most go for cheese over actual skill but that cheese only gets you so far before you do need actual skill to win but the cheese can get you much further on the killer side than the survivor side.
If the cheese is beating you then you likely can still improve unless you are solo queue (my primary role) and then to some extent you are at the whims of the matchmaker (not that I can't still improve). I regularly lose to killers that played worse than me but I can't think of a time I lost to survivors that played worse than me, even when they go for "gen rush" perks.
I use them as an example because people will regularly retort something along the lines of high mmr/top players/etc… (like you did) and you simply can't get more top than this. If those players reach for chase/anti-tunnel over gen perks then its safe to say that chase/anti-tunnel is stronger than gen perks. And if you watch these players play killer in public matches they will win basically every match, that cannot be said of them playing survivor unless they group up. I don't expect anyone to be as good as them but then they need to stop expecting to put up the same results. If you are not on their level but still win as many of your killer matches then we have a serious problem, especially when I see far more complaints like those in this thread claiming survivor is too strong. The claims of winning every match but that survivor needs nerfs do not add up or they just want to win matches even harder than they already do.
For the record I would in fact be in favor of removing literally every perk and item that effects gen speeds on both sides and then re-balancing how long gens take around this (and lets make them variable for different killers while we are at it). Though this is mostly because I think the existence of gen regression/blocking is the primary thing that prevents killer build variety. So long as those perks exist or so long as they can be stacked they will always be the strongest thing killers can bring (unless they get nerfed to actual uselessness) and then gen speeds have to be balanced around killers stacking them.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051986#Comment_4051986
Different doors open for certain players. Many are closed for most, some are closed for some and none are closed for ones you cant see.
the Swfs with no doors closed dont play by the same rules as everyone else. The devs could buff blight 3 times over and these teams would probably still beat most in their games.
Although gen rushing is unbalanced in Swfs these players have options that can surpass even that with just sheer skill, but its fair play because these players are just that good.
It's not unbalanced, you're just not as good as you think you are. It's quite a common affliction for killers in this game.
Watch any actual high mmr swf and you will see builds similar to the winstreak one. Gen speed perks can be effective but only if the killer lets you sit on gens. It doesn't matter that these top killers see those builds because they still win those matches. I bet you would agree that matchmaking in this game sucks so a top killer seeing those builds doesn't even mean they are facing a high mmr swf or even a high mmr player or even a swf. One on hook, one in chase, one going for hook, one on gens. This setup means that if everyone brings gen perks only one person is using their perks, it is incredibly inefficient.
You are simply looking for any excuse to explain your losses and have decided this is the thing instead of looking at how you could improve.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051966#Comment_4051966
The only problem is that "fact" is you trying to assume gen multipliers aren't a problem based on how well some of the best survivors in the world can extend a chase.
For example we all know blight is a extremely bloated killer and performs well in high ELO, but does that mean the best killers in the world have to use him to perform there? No.
That's like me showing you a game saying
"Look at this game of trapper going on his 200th game win streak, trapper is S teir" Is it trapper or is it the player?
The truth is most players even in high ELO depend on crutches, killer and survivor.
You think the best survivor players in the world in a group need to sacrifice perk slots to make gens drastically shorter?
Go watch any top killer and see how many gen rushers he goes against.
Are you suggesting that the best survivors in the world wouldn't use the absolutely strongest things they possibly could while trying to break the survivor winstreak world record? You are out of your mind. If gen "multipliers" were such a problem they would have used those, they didn't. I think they know the game far better than either of us.
If such a win streak is possible then another player of equal skill could match it, it establishes the maximum potential of the killer. The only reason Trapper isn't S tier because of a 200 game winstreak is because Nurse and Blight are capable of 1000+ game winstreaks. If every other killer capped at say a 50 game winstreak but Trapper still had that 200, then Trapper would be S-Tier (it would be a very different game).
Go watch any top killer and see how many matches they win vs how many they lose. How many gens get completed doesn't matter when at most a single survivor escapes.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051896#Comment_4051896
Idk from where you phrasing it be even decent m1 killer can loose 2-3 gens without plying badly its just the way game is desingned argue as much as you want but its big fat fact.
Gens go fast unless killer creates enough preasure so survivors have way less time for gens and have to go do other things like rescue the hook teammates or pick up the downed slugs killer created.
What is proble you dont get here?
The previous? You put there fact that longest swf (survivor) win streak was done without perks that make gens repeair speed go faster and I put there its the gen efficiency that is important and no one can execute it as well as swf, so what you dislike about that much, I not arguing here with you.
Could you actually go back and read the thread before responding to me? The problem is quite evident from the thread when you compare @top500spiderman's complaints to these builds. Survivors are REQUIRED to be gen efficient, they don't get to not be. If they don't bring any perks that speed up gens and regularly face killers that bring gen slowdown they cannot be accused of gen rushing, they are literally repairing gens at base speed.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051809#Comment_4051809
People have went on insane win streaks with low teir killers, does that make any of the high teir killers any less better?
You have been complaining about SWF and say they gen rush with perks this whole thread. This is the ultimate example of how wrong you are. Your statement has zero relevance to that fact, its just the standard attempt to discredit the opposition when they prove you wrong. Good survivors know that the number one way to get gens done is to extend chases and prevent killers from getting a tunnel out. Exactly what these builds are designed to do.
Ask any competitive killer or just go back and watch their streams.
Maybe take your own advice. Any comp killer will tell you that if you are competent at the role you should win 90+% of your public killer matches. Watch their stream and you will see them win over and over again.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051853#Comment_4051853
Cant denny that gens can be done fast without gen perks if 4 survviors spread out at the start we are looking on 2-3 gens in 100 seconds time window unless killer has great mobility or game sence and finds them first and starts to get fast downs in short time window.
For your killers skill issue who was the killer? Like you can loop m1 killer or killer with no chase power for very long time like over minute and bloodlast only kicks in on second stage if and thats 30 seconds and level 3 is 45 seconds for just one m1 hit so not all things are skill issu just if they are matched against m1 killer who has same experience or around same you cant expect him to have same downs in same time as the someone with around same experience (to survviors) with better killer like blight or springtrap which can end chases fast if they are good or even burn through pallets faster tahn the m1 killer like the blight can.
Let me rephrase that first paragraph for you: unless the killer is decent at the game gens will go fast. Why is this a problem?
Maybe go actually read the conversation that has been had so you understand the context.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051809#Comment_4051809
You dont need gen rushing perks to have fast gens all you need is to do gens efficiently, spread on them and hold killer from getting his downs as long as you can while keeping your distance from your teammates that do those gens (unless they are low in progress).
Survviors that spread and have good game sence and know which gens they pick so they create 3 gen that even blights can struggle to keep thats what makes them that strong.
Do you not see how much the person I responded to has been complaining about gen perks? The post I responded to literally states a 24 second gen time which isn't possible without perks. Four survivors on a gen completes one in ~41 seconds and then there were four survivors on one generator, wildly inefficient. If there are no perks to support "gen rushing" then there can be no gen rush, the killer was simply unable to effectively pressure the survivors. Skill issue.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051675#Comment_4051675
This is just not true, most swfs in high ELO gen rush. Ask any competitive killer or just go back and watch their streams.
Just because you goof off in SWFs doesnt mean thats what they do, the 48% in high ELO proves that.
being able to do a gen in 24 seconds from just synching a few perks, again shouldn't be possible.
These are the survivor builds from the longest survivor winstreak, note the total lack of gen rush perks. These players know how to win in a SWF better than anyone.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051584#Comment_4051584
you have that same blind spot when it comes to the survivor side but even worse than i do since i at least can admit my bias the reason why i didn't bother citing it because in the low rank (non mmr) 40 is solo and actually escapes more than 4 man actually and it's reversed in high mmr but there isn't a point to responding any more since we will not and cannot change each other's minds. this is pointless
nah, I fully admit my bias but do in fact play the killer role even if it isn't my preferred (I can get that experience in many games but survivor is unique) and do in fact accept that the role has problems but reality disagrees with you not me. The only segment of the player base that has an above average escape rate is high MMR four mans (and that data is now almost a year old, the more recent data didn't have the high MMR split and solo escape went down from the previous numbers). People that claim they only go against these squads are simply lying and can't accept their skill issue.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051542#Comment_4051542
i am saying these changes would've harmed the game unless it was tweaked into uselessness i understand we won't convince each other since we both have our biases and there isn't a point arguing about this further
At some point it stops being bias and becomes intentional blindness to the other side. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt but I honestly think you fall into that camp. Your reaction to a joke and citing the 48% instead of the 40% says it all I think. The people that complained most win practically every single one of their killer matches, you and them will never be satisfied.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051526#Comment_4051526
i was playing the ptb it was disgusting how strong survivors were since the game played itself at that point because high tiers at best could maybe get a 2k and low tiers got destroyed since if you killed a survivor before 6 hooks you can't kick gens + they got a gen speed boost, hooking a survivor gave them elusive (which was basekit otr) + 30 second bt + 10 haste for 30 seconds on top of the hud lying to killers it was so easy and free for survivors 1 guy coud die on hook for the other 3 to get a free game. did you play killer during this time? because it sounds like you didn't
i can't take a joke like that when i'm playing a pvp game where both sides goals are opposing each other and when one side gets buffs it's a nerf to the other side also kill rates as far as the official rates go is 40 survivor (48 for swf) and 60 killer the goal the devs are aiming for. also i do have a killer bias since this game is an asymmetrical 4v1 game if the game swings too heavily in favor of survivors the game dies like all the other asyms since without a killer you don't have a game (unless the devs just have killer bots play)
As I said, it wasn't perfect and I expected changes, you keep ignoring me saying that and won't take anything less than me agreeing with you in full. These systems would have been good for the game and you will never convince me otherwise. I agree these changes would have effected the kill rate and then BHVR would have made other changes until it returned to the 60% overall they shoot for. 48 for four man swf in high MMR (still 40 for just four man but that doesn't support you so you ignore it), a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase. I don't disagree with favoring the killer side but if the game swings too heavily in favor of killers the game dies as well and right now it favors killers much more than survivors unless you are literally a comp four man.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051503#Comment_4051503
you can't make those changes either unless you tone it down to uselessness (like the afk crows and fog vials) because those changes were so damaging to killer it made it unplayable for the average killer and even then in order to compensate you would have to giga buff killer to such an extreme way there wouldn't be a point not to mention the base bbq and the nerfed pop is what the devs thought was proper compensation which shows their mentality and how far removed they are to killer issues
you can't say "evil skull merchant" as a developer not even as a joke because it reveals your bias on the survivor vs killer mentality on dbd just cementing yourself on the survivor side on a giga buffed survivor ptb. the devs are supposed to be impartial (personally i never thought they were with the buffs survivors got over the years and nerfs to killers and gen regression)
This wouldn't have hurt them nearly as much as killer content creators made it out to. What it would have hurt is their ridiculous win streaks. It would have resulted in more buffs to lower tiers and ultimately would have hurt the high tiers more than the low tiers, it just needed time to get there. It wasn't perfect but with tweaks like something more akin to pain res and a better mobility tool it would have worked. It didn't even actually get rid of tunneling, it just made there be an actual tradeoff to doing so (which itself needed tweaks). A nurse can tunnel someone out 10x more efficiently and effectively than a trapper, they take advantage of it more than anyone else does.
If you can't take a joke like that in a video game then you have a victimization complex and should maybe look at why you think the developers of a video game are out to get you. Just look at how often they showcase dwight as being a scaredy cat hiding in lockers and how little reaction that gets. You are just showcasing your own bias by solely looking at changes to the survivor side and ignoring the changes to the killer side. Kill rates still favor killers despite all the protests to the contrary.
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And I've seen as many get like this on the killer side. Which you see more of is entirely a question of which you play more. I had a springtrap throwing their mouse around at the exit gate as they got three outed recently. I thought they were just being funny until they started spouting slurs at us in endgame chat.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051464#Comment_4051464
for the first one oe the second one because both times they giga buffed survivors nerfed the killer perks and gave tiny compensation the 1st time (which wouldn't do anything and makes high rank unplayable there was a reason why they aaid you can turn it off in customs) or the 2nd time where they said "killers felt it held their hand too much" (even though survivors were carried by the 1st changes) and just gave killers bloodlust 1 effectively making it even more useless
As I said they weren't perfect but instead of being allowed to iterate and make the necessary changes everything got thrown out when I honestly think they would have ultimately made the game better if they had been allowed to test them longer and make those changes.
One developer made one mistaken statement and the whole community takes it as an attack (the "evil" skull merchant was a joke in case you couldn't tell), guy isn't a community manager or a PR person and are likely working off third hand statements mis-communicated to them. Cut him some slack, going in front of the community like that wasn't in his job description until recently.
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@BlackRabies said:
If you want anti tunneling and anti slugging in the game to punish killers for playing their role then there better be something to punish survivors for "gen rushing".
Are we ignoring that killers would have gotten additional basekit regression in the PTB? The system wasn't perfect but it would have been tweaked if it had been allowed further testing.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051429#Comment_4051429
You said I compared base-kit endurance and haste to window blocking. I said that I didn't, partially by stating what I actually did. I will not continue to engage in such a flagrantly dishonest discussion.
You
Tunneling and slugging are strategies that can backfire. They are not comeback mechanics like base-kit endurance and haste that guarantee a second chance.
Windows being blocked and the ability to break pallets prevents the existence of infinites. In other words, they create balance.
Me
Calling the base-kit endurance and haste you get off hook a second chance while saying window blocking creates balance is wild. It shows a ridiculous level of bias towards the killer role.
No, I didn't. Read my statement again if you need to. I simply stated that those two takes together show a considerable bias. You got any actual arguments against anything I said?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051410#Comment_4051410
I countered the comparison to tunneling and slugging to the base-kit anti-tunnel mechanics, not compared what you said. Don't misrepresent my words.
A come-back mechanic is something that guarantees a second-chance. Strategies can earn someone a come-back. There's a big difference there.
Those rates, alternatively, the kill rates, don't include when a Survivor gives up. The math there isn't reliable.
They are not comeback mechanics like base-kit endurance and haste that guarantee a second chance.
Your words not mine, I haven't misrepresented anything. You are quite literally calling the base-kit endurance and haste a second chance and a comeback mechanic when its non-existence leads to the survivor being downed instantly off hook.
A come-back mechanic can take the form of something guaranteed like the gen speed changes in 2v8 or it can be a strategy the killer could employ to try and swing the match back in their favor. Tunneling and slugging, when not done early, absolutely fits that second category. The fact they can be employed early into the match is why they are so problematic.
Those rates, alternatively, the kill rates, don't include when a Survivor gives up. The math there isn't reliable.
I rarely actually see a survivor give up until the game is already so heavily out of their favor that them giving up doesn't matter. I'm not saying it never happens but it is rarer than its made out to be. Any match with a DC is also ignored from these stats so most of these matches are not counted in those rates. BHVR can also ignore any low scoring or extra low MMR match in their stats if they so choose. Its what they did the last time they gave us the top five killers by overall kill rate. They didn't include any match where the killers MMR was below 500 (we really do need a better understanding of what that 500 means though). They have also previously released stats that didn't include "low scoring matches," AKA the ones where survivors all give up early.
Whichever way you slice it the game largely favors killers. Yes this is killer dependent and I would even agree that the absolute top level favors survivors outside of a couple killers but I doubt either of us are at that level. Pick your favorite killer creator and scroll through their most recent day of playing matches and actually count how often they win vs lose. You will almost certainly find they win more than they lose and by a considerable margin. If you are not putting up the same numbers they are you can improve. I don't expect everyone to be on that level but then they need to stop expecting to put up the same results.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051400#Comment_4051400
Tunneling and slugging are strategies that can backfire. They are not comeback mechanics like base-kit endurance and haste that guarantee a second chance.
Windows being blocked and the ability to break pallets prevents the existence of infinites. In other words, they create balance.
Bloodlust is your strongest example, and, even then, it's heavily defendable since so many maps would be difficult to navigate without it due to how large and/or pallet-dense they can be.
The perks that get deactivated in end-game were previously used to guarantee free escapes. Again, balance.
NOED? Totems can get cleansed beforehand, and, if they don't, its totem gets highlighted. No Way Out? The Killer has to earn it by hooking different Survivors. Blood Warden? Don't open the gates before a Survivor is about to get hooked? Remember Me? The Obsession should not allow themself to get tunneled, and their teammates should be ready to help them with body-blocks and repair efficiency. Turn Back the Clock only regresses a generator in their line-of-sight by 10%.
That's not true; however, I'd rather focus on how there are things that could be done to prevent them from dying at all, including perks such as Reassurance and Shoulder the Burden.
"Survivor more stressful than Killer" my ***.
Calling the base-kit endurance and haste you get off hook a second chance while saying window blocking creates balance is wild. It shows a ridiculous level of bias towards the killer role. Why should the killer be able to down a survivor before they have even managed to move after being unhooked? How is that balanced?
Tunneling and slugging can absolutely be used as a comeback mechanic, just because they can backfire isn't a counterargument to this capability. I have tunneled and slugged to stage a comeback and it regularly works and I would bet you have as well.
I agree that the killer role is more stressful since the game is solely on you but at the same time I make far more mistakes on the killer side and then still win than when playing survivor. The game inherently favors the killer role, the only "math" you need for that is the overall kill rates. Even high MMR four mans have a below 50% escape rate.
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@diablo916 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050767#Comment_4050767
There are 4 survivors bro. They need to stop catering to babies and actually focus on their veteran players who know how to play the game. Everyone agrees that gen speeds need to be looked at and my idea is a core mechanic that punishes gen rush. They punish camping and tunneling yet leave gen rush untouched. Survivors can afford to spend a little time in order to set up strong pallets and windows
You love to put down survivors while calling them the toxic ones. Do you have zero self awareness?
Fact is the average killer is as bad as the average survivor. Survivors can only "gen rush" if you let them. Every killer I have practice with I have an above average kill rate with and the more I practice the more I win. So many killers think they're good at the role but they're not, the game just favors them so they think they are.
I literally just got out of a match with a Wesker running Coulrophobia and Plaything together, he also had Surge. He hit two dashes, got four outed, and then claimed he was playing pallet simulator. In endgame I tried to explain how anti synergy his build was but he tried to hit back that Bond was a bad perk. I am solo queue, bond is a better perk to me than DS or any exhaustion perk, that guy definitely thought he was good.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050811#Comment_4050811
I don't get the problem. A player gets good at the killer and is able to perform well. We don't need more killers who give survivors so much warning that using their power is a detriment.
My problem is solely with telling someone to just dodge. I'm not saying you can't make it more difficult to hit but there are two players here not one. You don't dodge a nurse, at least not a good one, you make yourself harder to hit and try to get them to miss their blink or fail to predict your movement. The rest of his kit keeps him from nurse level but this specific portion of his power is at least close to that level.
@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050811#Comment_4050811
To be fair you lose a lot of distance if you keep missing. The pressure is there on the killer for sure. Especially since he is 4.4ms
I don't disagree, if you already have some distance from the killer and you should be trying to maintain that. Once they are closer the more erratic movement you have to take to make hitting the vines difficult can easily lead to an m1. Still fine since I don't expect a chase to last forever. As people figure out the best way to play him this might change though.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050478#Comment_4050478
You still have to aim. It still takes multiple hits before you even take damage. Be so for real. It could be another nurse situation but it’s not even close.
He’s designed very well
I'm not saying it nurse level and agree he is well designed but the power is much more on the killer to hit than the survivor to dodge. Just saying dodge puts everything on the survivor and takes all agency away from the killer when their power is much more on them than the survivor. Predict the survivor or land it right under them and you ARE guaranteed a hit. Not everyone will be able to do that and fewer will be able to do so consistently but some players will and if it turns out to be easier than you think we could have a nurse situation.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050478#Comment_4050478
Are we arguing that a killer who takes skill to be good at should be nerfed for requiring skill?
No, you can see my thoughts on the killer elsewhere. He may end up needing nerfs if too many people get good at him (doubt it) and he is a bit too good at tunneling, really only slowed by being 4.4. However, the survivor isn't really dodging. if the vines are placed under you you can't escape. It's a mind game you made the killer miss, I am properly placing the onus to hit with the power on the killer. You can make that more difficult but it's stil much more on the killer than the survivor.